GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7723&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Take a look at that thread. I respect the abilites and intelligence of various people included in that discussion, especially DemoCoder, but this time he truly baffles me. His level of faith inherent in his atheism is truly astounding, my jaw literally dropped after finishing reading what he had to say. So, my point is: how do you successfully witness to people like that? I've "heard" about people like that but never have I met one. I'm debating whether to get involved in that argument as it truly seems fruitless, just look at the absurdity of what they post! EDIT: I mean, seriously, these people sit there making those statement about their beliefs and then the absurdity is that they are audicious enough to say being called a creationist is an insult! [This message has been edited by GUMP (edited September 05, 2003).] |
|
nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
I've not read the link you posted, but I think I can answer your question. I was brought up in a Christian home and at a very early age was led to an understanding of Christ as Savior (some would use the term "saved".) I have 3 other brothers, 1 of which is younger than me; the other two are half-brothers, but were close to me when I was a kid and I still consider them nothing less than brothers. My youngest brother heard and even practiced the faith most of his grown life, but I would consider him to be an agnostic based on his own admissions. The elder two brothers only experienced the Christian home for part of their childhood (my parents became Christians when they were around 10 years old). The oldest of these two is an ardent atheist (I'm not sure there is any other type); the other one...well...I'm not sure about him. I've spoken with the atheist brother of mine at great lengths about Christianity and other religions. We've spent hours debating the metaphysical assumptions of truth and God, etc etc...to the point of exhaustion. Undoubtedly, you are quite familiar with this process. I even shared an apartment with him for a year, which I admit was a very strange time for both of us. I never really got to know him personally when I was a kid, and it was an interesting experience living with him again after over 10 years of distance between us. He and my father - that would be his step-father - never did and still don't get along. In that sense, I was an intercessor for my side of the family and him. Although that was very awkward, it also presented a great opportunity to minister to him spiritually in a material way (think about that and read on - you'll understand what I mean). The greatest time I had with him was those late nights we stayed up talking about our past family troubles - experiences that I knew little about other than my own vague memories. He told me his side of the story, mostly placing alot of blame on my father. I responded based on what I knew of my father then and what I knew of my father since then. I shared with him the reality that people can change if they want to change their life; but also people can change when life makes them change. My father isn't perfect but I know he's done everything he can to provide a better life for me. He changed alot the older I became. I'm not certain that was due solely to him making changes in himself, or my understanding of life that revealed that to me. It may be both. My brother, the atheist, still is an atheist as far as I know. But I'm sure he recalls the discussions we had about things. As much as it pains me to see him live his life the way he chooses, I have to accept the fact that it is his choice to be who he is and believe what he does. I learned something more from talking to him than he probably did from me. I learned that a person with bitterness and pride can really destroy themself and be too blind to see what they've done to themself, even when desperately trying to understand why. I still see my atheist brother. We still talk. He knows I love him for who he is and that I look beyond what he's done. And I still pray he understands all the things we talked about that one night when we both cried together over all the things that went wrong when we were kids. My words would mean nothing if I hadn't held him that night...I'm trusting God on that. I love all my brothers the same way. My parents too. I don't talk with all of them like I want to, but I think about them and pray about them as often as I can. Sometimes you have to let God do what God does. Matt ------------------ |
CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
I'm not sure argument would be a good idea in such cases - I don't think it's a lack of reasoning that's stopping him, but rather something else. An argument might make him defensive and drive him away. There's probably another reason behind him not willing to accept Christianity. Maybe he's afraid of peer pressure. Maybe he is unwilling to accept the supernatural, since he can't observe or prove it. Maybe he feels that it's a myth. I don't know, but if you do decide to communicate with him, I suggest you approach him in a kind and gentle manner. I'm good with logic and reasoning, but I'm afraid I'm not very good on the social level, which is where I think you should approach him on. I don't think it's logic and reasoning he's having troubles with. ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
hmm... DemoCoder... he made some good points actually. k, sure, there is a stereotype going around that Creationists are religious nuts that blind themselves to science... pfff... Evolutionists are idiots who blind themselves to science. alright.. calming down... the guy that got me was K.I.L.E.R.. that guys was, shall I say, not all the way there... he seemed to put his faith in an alien race that will give us theortical technologies. What a loonie... (sry, had to say that... well, k, I didn't have to say that.) ------------------ |
|
GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
I wasn't centering on DemoCoder specifically but his words confounded me the most. The problem is, at least with me DemoCoder, is that he is evidently unwilling to challenge (or test) his own beliefs. He demands that other provide the empirical evidence for any other beliefs. Science deals in the realm of the natural and therefore is unlikely to be able to prove the supernatural (let's see you convince God to perform miracles on a regular basis so you can test them). God requires that we have FAITH in him and not just evidence. It's amazing, but he would scoff at the idea of having faith in God yet here is having faith that there isn't a God. Ironic, isn't it? |
|
nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
this goes out to all the visitors from Beyond3D. it's nice to see that this site/thread is disturbing to some people (wink wink CK). |
|
CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
Heh, they noticed this thread . . . I'm not going to create an account just to create a single post, but I did notice one of their illustrations - celluar automata A few points: -Glider guns produce gliders, yes - but that's replicating something else, not self-replicating. AFAIK, a true self-replicator hasn't been found with Conway's rules. -Any mutation of a glider or glider gun almost always results in its destruction - they're pretty fragile. There's no DNA to hold information also. -Just to play Devil's advocate once: There are rules that have natural glider guns - such as Star Wars (Generations 345/2/4) - however, this is because the rules are much more forgiving, and the gliders are much simpler. -Even with Star Wars, it's more like growing crystals than growing life - no DNA to hold information, so any type of "evolution" is impossible. I've got a celluar automa program on my computer ------------------ |
.
.