|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I started a thread three days ago asking people what they thought Christianity is. I got a number of replies, which seemed largely to focus on how we act, and especially on the feeding of the poor ( which may be because I brought it up as an example ). One person suggested that above 'what would Jesus do', we should ask what He believed, which was probably the best answer in my opinion. What shocked me is that not one person talked about the power of God, or of the idea of Christianity meaning God present and acting in a persons life. In the meantime people are posting to ask if playing games is evil, should they burn their games, Christian games will save the world, etc. It really disappoints and concerns me to see a group of people who are so introspectively straining at gnats. What we have here is a subculture that honestly believes that God is inspiring them to write games in their bedrooms as a tool for salvation. It's nice, it has the veneer of religion, and it's comfortable. My point in bringing up the feeding of the poor was that it's also pretty comfortable to go to a church 'outreach' and hand out coffee or pamphlets, and to try and talk to strangers about what you believe. Jesus didn't set aside outreach time, He talked constanty about His Father. He didn't seek to right natural wrongs, He said render to Caesar, but make sure you also render to God. He met the needs of people who were giving Him a listen, but He didn't go out of His way to feed all in His area ( is there any doubt He could have ? ). My answer to my own question is that Christianity means first and foremost believing in Jesus. It also means receiving salvation from God, with power. It finally means living our life in Jesus image - seeking to do good where we can, to be the best we can be, but also living in the strength and power of God, offering people a Gospel of power where ever we have contact with them, and always drawing close to our God first and foremost. I'm sure all who answered my earlier thread will now say that they meant all of those things as well, but the point is they were clearly not enough on your mind to rate a mention. But I'm not trying to attack individuals, you at least care enough to be willing to discuss Christianity, where many others did not care enough to even want to talk about it. |
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
First of all i before i get into details, i want to say i agree in part with what you are saying, though i also disagree with what you are denying but i'll get to that later..
quote: I think that reaction was not the reaction these people would give if asked "what is christianity all about".. it was because of the context in which the question was asked, as well as the "loaded" subquestions also asked, and people follow a thread in discussion, not neccisarily the first post, and you trivialise the other issues, no one things christian gaves will save the world, but do see it as a potentially powerful tool and media, if you deny that, then you also have to deny the likes of say the bible translated into various english translations, christian radio programmes (which internationally do soooo much good, and probably the biggest tool for bringing muslims to Christ), christian t.v programs, any other form of media.. NO they aren't one on one personal outreach, but they are powerfully strategic, they don't substitute a walk with God, and outreach through one on one contact but they compliment it. And the content (and time spent) on computer games are real issues to real people, so let them talk about it.. If people were trying to talk about their addiction to porn and wanting to overcome it, would you just treat it like a non subject? but thats not what this post is about... well first of all.. What is being a christian? Well first of all i'd want to seperate too things that really can't be seperated.. who we are and what we do... but i seperate it for a purpose, because often we look at what we do, and try to make that to mean who we are, but that is going from the outside in, rather than the inside out.. and also the same outward behaviour might reflect different beliefs and worldviews... i.e the behaviour of nodding your head up and down in most countries means you are agreeing or saying yes... while in bulgaria it means no.. One person may do something 'charitible' because they are trying to earn brownie points with God to make sure they get to heaven as they are unsure of their salvation , other does it because they want to make themself feel good that they are a good person, while another does it because of their relationship with Christ, the realisation of God's amazing love for them and for others, and them letting themselves be a vessel to be used by God.. So as a christian who are we? We are on earth for a purpose, we haven't died and gone to heaven, and history is continueing for a purpose, and that purpose is God's wish that none would perish, His longsuffering love, and Him using the church, and christians as vessels to show this love to the world, and to proclaim the good news of the gospel.. so DOING is important, but it comes out of being... a good way to look at it , is to come back to the whole GRACE/WORKS thing.. We are saved by Grace, and not works, and striving in works is actually idolotorous, it is saying to God, we can do things our way... however just because some take the things of God and 'humanise' them.. bring them down to our level, doesn't make the works not good... its unbalanced.. the balance needs to be brought back, and the focus set back on Jesus.. a Christian does works, not to earn brownie points with God, to feel good about themselves, of because of the 'need' out there, But because of their walk with Christ, their experiencing the love and grace of God in their own lives to overflowwing, their DESIRE to OBEY christ, the love of Christ that they have in their hearts for others because they understand God's great love for them and others, and their willingingness to walk with Christ, no matter what how uncomfortable... And they do great works, and works i believe ARE DESINTED and CALLED TO BY GOD, even though you may find them pointless... They show love, they earn respect of people, they blow mindsets of non christians and enable them to be able to listen to the gospel... I AGREE THOUGH THAT SOME MINISTRIES ARE POINTLESS IN THAT THEY FOCUS SOLEY ON THE PHYSICAL NEEDS AND IGNORE THE SPIRITUAL NEEDS OF PEOPLE-however that is the minority not hte majority, i know hundreds of international ministries that are RIght on... those unbalanced ministries just need a prophet to bring the truth to them, but just because of them , we shouldn't right off what God is doing in the world through many means... i know many people in world vision, and i think they are right on, and the millions and millions and millions getting saved in countries where they are active are not unrelated to the christian love they have shown to these people. and say missionaries who go to a plae where the gospel has never been preached - (will you say that there are no need for missionaries?) well they don't just turn up and start to preach the gospel in english... NO.. they act like Christ, Christ humbled himself to be a man, and came down to men, and met men where they were, in their own context in the issues of their lives, related to them where they were at, and once he got an eye opener, showed his love, he used that eye opener to bring them the gospel in a relevant way.. these missioanries have to humble themselves, and go as learners, before they can communicate the gospel , they have to learn the langauge and culture, they show interest in these people, along time before they are able to communiate the good news in words, they have already through love and acceptance and deeds... faith and deeds are just part of the same cookie , however one stems from the other , as christians we have often had things wrongsideup.. whether it is doing without the 'being', or putting the least of the gifts of the spirit first, or whatever else... however the truth remains.. and God is God despite frail humanity. and christian , Yes our rich coworkers need Christ too, and we should not ignore the work situation God has us in, just to go off on some ministry charity thing, But from the people i know who work in such ministries, they are christians whereever they are... we shouldn't go the other way and say "we'll lets ignore the poor until we have outreached to all our neightbours etc i didn't explain things exactly how i wanted.. and my definition of a christian or christianity is of course not complete... By may God Bless, and challenge us all more so Karl ------------------ |
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I agree that in part my question may have been seen as loaded, but I loaded it by asking people to clarify if what people seemed to be discussing was really the be all and end all. I think that 'Christian' music and games is basically a tool to make money. I do not believe one person will be saved via a game. Christian games are a reason Christians are held to ridicule.
quote: I would support World Vision but they do not preach the Gospel, and the reason 'millions are saved' is that they will only feed those who convert. Did you know that ? We have churches in Africa and they are not fed by the likes of World Vision because they do not follow their watered down Gospel.
quote: Again, the real problem is this idea that we need to go abroad to find people who need to hear the Gospel. I find it interesting that the idea of feeding the poor being the centre of the Gospel is so ingrained that no matter how often I say that of course we should be willing to give physically and to care for peoples situations, everyone seems to assume I don't care.
quote: The poor ARE our neighbours, so are the rich. I'm saying that both need the Gospel.
quote: Yes, it seems to have also not mentioned the idea of God doing anything, which I presume was a subtext you never got to. |
BKewl Member Posts: 144 From: St. Charles, MO, USA Registered: 07-10-2002 |
I agree fully with you Christian that the rich need Jesus as much as the poor do; however, Jesus even said it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. Don't get me wrong, I'm not using that as an excuse for not reaching out to them(I know many times I've truly been ashamed for not doing so) but I think more often than not they tend to be the rocky or weed-choked soil if you will. Argh, I'm sorry, I know most everything I say on this subject will come out sounding hypocritical or slacking-off-staying-in-comfort-zone-while-people-are-dying-unsaved but in all honesty this is a subject I struggle with very often; I think about this a lot but am too cowardly to do anything. I agree this is where we as Christians seem to lack, and I'm probably one of the worst. It's probably one of the hardest parts of outreach (but still no excuse to ignore). |
|
Curry Member Posts: 134 From: USA Registered: 11-21-2002 |
Christian, I believe that Christians should focus on social issues. It's not a matter of social issues vs. evangelism; they are brother and sister, one leads a believer naturally to the other, and both are found in the Gospel side by side. I didn't know that World Vision has any only-feed-if-they-convert thing going on (maybe you should share more info with us about it because that's something we should all know about in order to make informed choices). But here's an organization that I have a lot of respect for: Persecution Project. http://www.persecutionproject.org/ To get an idea of what they do, check out their newsletter under Resources and then Newsletter in the site. The Christians in Sudan and other places are experiencing revival and have a great demand for Bibles as well as physical aid. About the subject of abortion, when we discuss such matters with terms like "pro-life" and "pro-choice", these are almost like euphemisms (hope I spelled that right) that don't convey the serious reality of what's going on; it sounds more like a personal preference. But as a Christian, if I'm in the street and someone tries to murder another person, should I stand by? Obviously, it's not a preference, but something I need to do. And if there is a genocide in another country and thousand or millions are being murdered, should I ignore it or do what I can to help? (Even if evangelism is a priority, people can't benefit from any earthly preaching of the gospel if they are being struck down, after all.) Then, if millions of very young people are being killed in my own country, should I do something? So you can see, the only question is whether they are people; if they are, there is no question that we are obligated to help them. And if you study that question and seek the answer, I think it's quite easy to find the conclusive answer based on evidence and logic. Is it realistic to encourage others to follow our moral code? Well, just turn on TV and you'll see that those under the influence of our spiritual enemy have no hesitation about trying to get people to conform to theirs! You have to look at the big picture--a society cannot survive if evil is allowed complete freedom to destroy its moral fabric and break down its good institutions. I could try to give a more lengthy explanation, but that wheel has already been made. Try Dr. James Kennedy at coralridge.org -- if you can check out any of his books from the library, or you can listen to some of his TV and radio broadcasts online. I didn't get my desire to work for social issues from Kennedy, but once I was doing so, when I found his materials I thought that he is very admirable and on the forefront of trying to get Christians active in being the salt of the earth and active socially and in politics as well as fully in evangelism. And he does a good job of explaining why. So, I believe that Christians can be making all kinds of media--including games--not only to lead people to Jesus, but also to lead people to truth and doing the right thing on all kinds of moral, social, and political (where it affects social and moral) issues. One last point: about questioning social issues at the expense of evangelism, although it's valid and something to watch out for on the one hand, I think it's overlooking something really big on the other--one reason that secular and even anti-Christian ideologies and programs spread is when Christians ignore social issues. Rather than Christians spreading gospel and truth while solving these issues in the best way we can according to our limitations, often very secular organizations have little competition in helping people their way and spreading their ideas and agendas with it. The results can be pretty bad. And when Christians leave all the media to others, you can see the results there too. If you look at the fruits of people and organizations to know them, as we are advised to do, you'll see that secular often (or usually?) does not equal neutral, morally and spiritually. In other words, it's a struggle for hearts, minds, and souls, as well as for all the aspects of what will happen to people in their lives and their physical, mental, and spiritual situations. Curry |
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
BKEWL: It's ALWAYS hard to reach out, but it's hardest when the people involved are those around us. Conversely they are the ones most likely to listen, they can see the actions that back up the words and know that you speak out of interest for them personally. For that reason I am more likely to join social groups ( for example I am joining a swimming club, because I like swimming, and although the club idea is not exciting to me at all, it will give me a chance to meet people and talk to them about Jesus ) than to go out into the street with a swathe of pamphlets. I think we mistake how good we feel after talking to a stranger about God with them actually getting something out of it. It's not that I would refuse to talk to anyone, it's that I seek fruit for the Kingdom in how I go about it. |
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
Phew - looks like I got people responding.... Curry:
quote: Can you find evidence that Jesus did this ? If by 'side by side' you mean that as we meet people we minister to their physical as well as spiritual need, then I agree. If you mean to seek out the poor and slip a pamphlet or bible in their food parcel, then I don't agree.
quote: Apparently all the aid groups operating in Africa are doing this, so I am told by our African saints. I have tried to find a 'sponsor a child' group that is not 'christian', but cannot. Can you suggest one ?
quote: In line with what I said before, I absolutely support helping Christians who have any sort of difficulty, the Bible singles this out as something we must do.
quote: Actually, you did spell it right. But while I tend to disagree with abortion myself, it's not a black and white issue. Do you think mothers will stop having abortions if you close all the clinics, or will they get someone to do it for them in their back yard ? Should a rape victim bear the child of her attacker ? These are some of the issues we glibly ignore as we put 'adoption - not abortion' stickers on our cars and live our comfortable lives. How about the fate of an unwanted baby after birth ?
quote: Again, the problem is that you can't stop it, and how do you differentiate your message from the killing of abortion doctors ? In many minds, you will be the same. Did Jesus attempt to stop the wrongs of the Romans in His day, or preach salvation to individuals and let God change them from within ?
quote: More convoluted logic than anything. However, I am with you in hating abortion, I simply prefer to focus on the Gospel than an earthly battle which cannot be won.
quote: That's hardly the point. They WANT to. If people decide not to have an abortion, will they be saved ?
quote: The Bible indicates our society CANNOT survive.
quote: I am SO against christians telling the world how to live. It makes us seem self righteous and does not save souls. I prefer to tell people how *I* live, and what makes me want to live that way.
quote: Yes, but is that a surprise ? That will be repaired in the next age. |
|
Curry Member Posts: 134 From: USA Registered: 11-21-2002 |
quote: For example, if pro-choice people feel free to promote abortion, but pro-life people (mostly Christians) are afraid to do that because it's telling the world how to live, then there would only be pro-choice literature, commercials, pressure in education and politics, etc. Would that be fair to the community and to young people to grow up hearing only one message and one viewpoint? This would be Christians discriminating against and handicapping themselves from the rights and opportunities that everyone else has, and it would result in disadvantaging the whole community.
quote: Pro-choice activists promote these kinds of false-dilemma questions, but they won't hold up to serious scrutiny if you really examine them and put them in perspective. Rape and medical complications are the vast minority of cases, so the rest of cases can be considered separately no matter how we decide about them. And many unwanted babies are wanted by other people, but government-funded organizations promote abortion more than they do adoption. If abortion is wrong and should be illegal, then obviously it wouldn't matter if someone would have to do it in the house or a secret "back-alley entrance" clinic (not backyard) or not; it's an acceptable risk for a prohibited behavior, just like you risk AIDS by shooting up drugs at a gathering. As for differentiating pro-life from abortion doctor assassinators, there's no need--it would be like Christians who believe other religions are incorrect having to prove they are not advocates of Inquisition (not an imaginery example, but a line anti-Christian and some of the more radical interfaith activists actually have used). This is blocking an opponents message by linking him to a radical and undesirable image. Don't fall for it. I could try to go on and answer more of your questions and points, but again, those wheels are already invented and they are out there waiting to be looked at. Pro-life organizations like all.org cover abortion issues. Socially and politically active ministries like James Kennedy cover that issue. Different Christian apologetics and philosophy/theology materials take on some other issues you raised. I suggest, why not take a chance and expose yourself to a wider variety of Christian and related materials from different viewpoints than you have up to this point. Then you'll at least know what many people think are the answers to these questions and you'll see the other side of the argument, whether you agree with it or not. Maybe you'll see something that changes your mind, otherwise you'll have more material to support your own point of view. Can't lose, either way. I don't think we can Jesus was (and is) for leaving people alone to live however they wanted. He stormed into the Temple and knocked over the seller's stands, rather than letting them do according to their own wishes and interpretations. He offended the religious leaders of the day left and right, not only telling them how to live but point out their faults and hypocricies in an embarrassing way in front of everyone! He also told his apostles to go preach to the world (not just waiting for the world to come and ask for some info if they ever decided they wanted to) and to shake off dust from the sandals as a testament against the city if the people there rejected them. Curry |
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
quote: Not at all. I suspect abortion is a little different in the US to here, which may colour our views. Here it's hard work to get one, from what I understand. Either way, the point is that the struggle you seem to be focused on is a natural one, and one which you and I are free to participate in, but it's not Christianity. As I said elsewhere - the Romans killed people for fun, did Jesus ever address this or try to change it ?
quote: I am not especially pro-choice, I am pretty strongly against abortion. But the dilemma is not false, it's just that life is not as simple as we'd sometimes like it to be.
quote: This may well be the case. That does not stop it being an issue which complicates the idea of 'no abortion, not now, not ever'.
quote: Do you honestly think there are more people waiting to adopt than there are unwanted babies ? This is pie in the sky view, it is not a solution.
quote: And this applies for the woman who was raped or will probably die in childbirth ? The core issue is this, as a society we have a duty of care to our weaker members. I suspect most women who have abortions are quite ignorant, or they would have figured out how to take a pill every morning. You don't care about the harm that would befall them if they had an illegal abortion ? If you don't care about them, then think about yourself. Your taxes will pay for their recovery in a public hospital. Just one example about how you can't compartmentalise your view on one thing and pretend that there is a simple solution.
quote: I'll be honest, the second you as an American talk anti-abortion in such naive terms, I presume you support the killing of abortion doctors, that's what the media has shown me. Obviously I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, but others likely would not. Again, you're being naive.
quote: I actually started a thread here to try and understand the different points of view on these sort of issues. But ultimately, it's my opinion that nothing we've discussed so far in this thread has anything to do with Christianity or God. That it's a social issue, I agree. That people should either take measures to protect themselves, or deal with the consequences, I also agree. That some 'christian' people are so obsessed with this issue that they seem to talk about it instead of Jesus is however more the point that worries me.
quote: Yes, and in all cases He was attacking the people who were the religious leaders of the day and misled the people, and His teaching was about how to be righteous before God. I support all of this. |
|
holy_fire Member Posts: 40 From: Hamilton, Scotland Registered: 08-20-2001 |
This whole subject angers me imensly . What I see here is a bunch of guys talking about a subject they cannot connect with. You say its wrong so easily, you call rape a minority case. Abortion is wrong its a life lost we all know that but I will tell you one thing I would rather hold the hand of a woman who was raped and had an abortion than join a group of pigs who think so highly of themselves they think its smart to gather at a clinic and through paint of pigs blood at these poor people. I love these people right or wrong why? because my fiancee was raped and when she had to think of something to do people turned violent to her when she thought of abortion. She didn't get an abortion, she desided to have the baby she grew attached then the baby aborted itself. How could u possibly blame a girl for deciding to go through with an abortion is she's raped? u cant coz you dont know what its like. Jesus would never harm nor discriminate against these people in fact he would spend time with them and tell them they are loved. He would however grow angry with the "holier than thou" parade with there sticks and stones. A true christian shouldnt waste time protesting in lines against and issue or "affairs of the world", instead they should spend more time winning souls and mending hearts broken by such tragic events. |
|
holy_fire Member Posts: 40 From: Hamilton, Scotland Registered: 08-20-2001 |
sorry i dont like rape or abortion issues.
1. Praise God Mark 16: 15-18 for 2,3 and 4 and for 1 pick almost any psalm as an example Not protest or argue or debate. really its that simple [This message has been edited by holy_fire (edited December 10, 2002).] |
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I agree utterly with both your posts. Firstly, it's easy to live in an ivory tower and judge others, and second, I am pleased someone has finally answered the question by referring to the power of God instead of just our own works. |
|
Curry Member Posts: 134 From: USA Registered: 11-21-2002 |
Dear Christian,
quote: That's exactly what "false dilemma" means! It means not that there is not a problem, but that the two choices presented as alternatives in an argument are not the only choices, therefore the pressure to choose between the suggested position and another (usually exaggeratedly negative in order to manipulate) is irrelevant and not a true solution to the question in the discussion. It means that the real situation is more complex than what has been suggested. This is a widely studied logical fallacy to watch out for. And that's the case with many of the examples you were talking about, which have been promoted by abortion activists for the last thirty years. The case of abuse or medical problems is a false delimma, asking us to choose between a problem for the minority or an okay for everything. The reality is that it would be possible for law to treat these cases differently, and that the existence of a complication for a minority of cases does not affect whether the majority of cases are moral and should or should not be legal. It's strange to me that you seem to readily accept pro-life advocates as the oppressors in the situation, and those who need an abortion but are confronted by pro-life vitriol, the victims. Dude, pro-choice activists salaried by the abortion industry would be so happy to see their careful efforts at public influence paying off! First and foremost, the victim of every abortion is a completely innocent person who loses all opportunity to experience everything in life that we have--everything. All choices, all opportunities to contribute to society or enjoy the wonders of life are taken away. Secondly, many women are victimized by abortion. When undecided people go in for help, organizations that profit from abortion lead them to that instead of alternatives at a huge ratio, often with misinformation about the risks, considerations, and alternatives. Later, they may regret not being more informed or having more chance to think about it. On top of the normal health risks, abortion clinic doctors are usually less competent than regular doctors; it's a shunned field and gets the discards who couldn't make it in other areas. Thirdly, social groups are victims. The drive to promote abortion in America had racist and classist roots and the majority of abortions still run along these lines. Are abortion clinics and organizations the heroes of the situation? Let's look at their "fruits." They profit from promoting death, obviously, but besides that big fruit, we can see other ones that result from a corrupt agenda--baby tissues being sold through legal loopholes, sexual abuse of minors not reported in order to keep business going smoothly. The list goes on. All the "fruits" of these organization are one coherent whole--the facets of a face of evil. Pro-life advocates are usually not at all the way pro-choice media portray them. Although many of them are quiet and polite with signs are brochures at a legal distance, clinics hire "escorts" that bully and drown out protestors in order to silence their message and try to make trouble for them. Etc., etc. In my opinion, on issues like this some people parry away various arguments one by one in order to defend their position rather than looking at the whole picture and focusing not on countering each argument individually, but building a system of belief that has many argument which relate to each other about the whole. You say you are "pretty strongly against abortion," so in that case why is it necessary to feel strongly against those who promote pro-life and make it seem like they are causing a lot of problems? If you feel that is not the first priority for Christians, then perhaps you could encourage people to focus on something else first, but I don't see how you could justify being against them. After all, besides promoting pro-life as Christians (which we can easily justify, but) they can also promote it as citizens, which most of us are, notwithstanding we are Christians first! BTW, the reason I replied is not for contention, but that I think things like this are very important to discuss in the Christian community. Most of the body of Christ needs to be able to eventually reach agreement on such important issues. Curry |
|
Curry Member Posts: 134 From: USA Registered: 11-21-2002 |
Dear Holy Fire, I'm very sorry to hear about what happened. But even though this case is so close to you, a part of your life, it's still part of a minority of cases. That does not mean that it is minority as far as the importance of what happened--that trauma is terrible and cannot and should not ever be downplayed or diminished--but a minority as far as evaluating the issue as a whole and whether abortion should be legal for the *majority* of cases. That would not necessarily have to affect the minority of cases, which is a separate issue. The majority of cases (at least in most countries I know about) are not the kind of case that you personally had experience with. Also, I can assure you that throwing pig's blood is beyond rare, at least over here. I think I heard about it being done in your country. To be fair, I'm sure that any demonstrators are focusing on the *majority* of cases, again, and there is no way to tell when a minority case would be affected by such techniques. So, again, that's why the *majority* of pro-life advocates do not use such techniques. It's not fair that this type of crime happened to your fiancee, period. But we must put the blame squarely on the perpetrator and any social influences, not on pro-life advocates because of unwise techniques on the part of a handful, and not on a slip of the tongue in any pro-life rhetoric in media that fails to address the minority as adequately as the majority of cases--because the minority naturally feels bad when they see generalized statements, but the statements are aimed at the vast majority of cases. All crime is an outrage. But pro-life advocates are also trying to save victims of crimes--in the majority of situations where there is no such rare extreme complication, only the normal problems and pressures of life and an industry that promotes abortion services as the solution these problems and pressures. They are victims of that industry. We must not forget those victims too. Again, I think what happened is terrible and I think that laws should be stiffer against such crimes. I would advocate the death penalty when evidence of guilt is undeniable as a deterrence to other would-be offenders. I think you would find most of the pro-life camp are also strongly anti-crime. Curry |
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
Do you believe there is any evidence that the death penalty lowers crime ? I am amazed that someone so pro-life would expect the state to kill people. |
|
Curry Member Posts: 134 From: USA Registered: 11-21-2002 |
quote: That one got me smiling! :-) We don't have to see Christianity fitting in with anti-death penalty unless we see Christ's ministry as a direct contradiction to all the contact with God beforehand rather than a fulfillment. The Old Testaments shows clearly how the death penalty is to be administered for certain crimes. How about the New Testament? We see the death penalty administered directly by God, through the church leaders, for dishonesty of members--not something we would normally assume. It's a complex issue, but to make a long story short, I'm definitely not ashamed to believe that some crimes warrant death penalty and believe that it can be supported as easily or maybe more easily than Christians who are against it. I think it does deter. If you know it's the last thing you'll do, you may think twice about doing it. Right now, criminals can often be more confident knowing that the law will often work against victims; for example, if you are attacked and kill or severely injure your attacker, you may go to jail. Well, I replied to your posts in case it will give you another view and some more info to think about. I also referred to some other material out there that you could look at if you are interested. I've pointed out some clear logical fallacies (which you can compare with a textbook or web page of fallacies to verify) in popular arguments that abortion activists have promoted. So, I'll let you have the last word or not as you wish. I do think social issues is appropriate for Christians to work on with or without overt Christian messages included, and I think Christians shouldn't be more opposed to fellow Christian's action on social problems than those promoting the other side, even though they say they are mostly against it! I think games and software can address social issues, and I hope to be able to finish and show some examples of what I have in mind by that pretty soon. Curry |
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
quote: It's an easy conclusion to come to, but the available evidence does not support it. God is free to kill people, as He did Annanias and Saphira, but the NT provides no framework for us to do it. |