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British Israelism- the beginning and the end – klumsy

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
 		British Israelism..

Christian you claim for me to judge BI without knowledge of it or with bias.. so i do it from your own church's official website

here is the link everyone

http://www.rci.org.au/believe/plan.htm

quote:

During four Assyrian invasions under the command of Tiglath-pileser, Shalmaneser, and Sennacherib, the ten tribed northern section along with many Judahites from the southern section (2 Kings 18:13) were taken captive and deported. Israel's prophesied migration to the new land God had prepared for them was in operation.


well that part is pretty much correct other than the assumption in the last paragraph.. as with every good lie, base it on something true.. (devil started tht with his deception of eve back in the garden)

quote:

The residue of the Judah section was captured by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, about one hundred years later. The two sections of Israel were thus taken captive as prophesied and removed from Palestine.

The last king of Judah, Zedekiah, his sons and the nobles from his court were killed by Nebuchadnezzar, and the Davidic dynasty apparently disappeared from history. However, God had promised that this royal line would continue forever.

very good stuff.. and that promise that the royal line of David would continue forever is very important, ties in with the abrahamic covenant, ties in with much prophesy , fullfilled past and in the future also.... however where do we centre our attention on the fufillment of this prophesy - on man or on God?

quote:

The Bible records that Zedekiah's daughters escaped with Jeremiah the prophet into Egypt (Jeremiah 43:5-7). The reappearance of this royal line in Ireland and the marriage of one of the daughters of Zedekiah to Eochaidh the Heremon, himself a descendant of Judah is recorded in Irish history.

The Davidic dynasty continued in Ireland for about a thousand years, transferred to Scotland, with Feargus Mhore, continued unbroken through the Scottish kings to Mary Queen of Scots, and her son James VI, who became James I of England in AD 1603.


Now here is where we get off track.. it makes a nice fairy tale though.. the problem with this is it denies Jesus - yes the Jesus of your religion, you focus on man, rather than on GOd.... remember the promise of a decendant to abraham that would reign forever, and also of a decendant of the David... Jesus was that fufillment, the greatest part of that fufillment, carefully prophesied through the OT, and verified specifically by geneologies in the NT, teh decendants of David were still alive and well in israel when Jesus was born.. otherwise Jesus would have been born in ireland or somewhere in between.. This is the greatest danger of BI..

also modern genetics, archeology etc proves the bible so much more (i.e Ur used to be thought to not exist until they found it), but disproves BI

quote:

The Scots noted a link with Israel of old in the 'Arbroath Declaration' of 1320 which bears the seals of the Scottish barons assembled in Parliament under Robert Bruce. This document, sometimes referred to colloquially as the "Scottish Declaration of Independence" notes that they have travelled as a people from Scythia and through the Mediterranean Sea "and coming thence one thousand, two hundred years after the outgoing of the people of Israel...". This document, described by Register House officials as "probably our most precious possession", also notes their kingly claim: "In their kingdom one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, no stranger intervening, have reigned...".

maybe they were just as deluded as you BI people? I know alot about european royalty, as i myself am a decendant of the last bourbon king of france (hey nothing to be proud of being royal - especially rejected royalty) and i can trace my cousinship to most monachs today and to some very cool and also very evil men of the past, including charlemange, and possibily even antiochus IV who before Christs deflined the jewish temple by sacrificing a pig there... but away from me...
in those old days, many monachs had an idea that Jesus married and had some children and those children became the royals of europe... William the conquerer, the norman who took over england though along those lines, but his father , however, believed he was the son of satan...

Ok, i do concede one thing.. that the possibility that some of the lost tribes got to england or something, and even adpated white features and such, just as jews in other parts of the world have... however genetics have proven otherwise.. (but later) of course during these thousands of years, there have been the dispora jews spread throughout europe and elsewhere, it is estimated that at one time 10% of the roman empire was dispora jews..

quote:

After seventy years of captivity in Babylon some 49,000 of the descendants of those taken by Nebuchadnezzar were permitted to return to Jerusalem. They rebuilt the city walls and the temple and formed the society that was necessary in Palestine to fulfil the prophecies relative to the birth of Jesus Christ.

true true, so God keep some jews in "palestine" for the purpose of Jesus... Hey but Jesus is the fufillment of God's promise to abraham and to david, and He is the KIng, the Messiah, not some irish lad or lass
(if it is some irish lad or lass - maybe rowan should be the current line of judah?)

quote:

The eventual sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70 and the dispersion of the Jews is history. Seven hundred years earlier the ten tribed House of Israel and many from Judah had been dispersed by Assyria. These people became the Picts, Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Jutes, Scots and Normans who migrated slowly across Europe and (one way or another) entered into their new home, mainly in Britain. There were further migrations into America, and gradually elsewhere as the British Commonwealth was established.

True about the dispora etc and the assyrian stuff also... However there is not much evidance (actually evidence to the contrary about the picts, celts, anglo-saxons, danes, jutes, scots and normans..) history, anthroplogy and genetics disprove this... the normans, and danes, were migrating from the other direction and have complete different genes than semetic peoples.
(here is another gotcha, how come under BI, people in britian are one lost tribe, yet when they jumped onto a ship and went to the US, they became another tribe)

As far as the lost tribes go, there are many many other options, There is a few thousand year old center in kazachstan with much jewish literature and artifacts that supported an israelite city of more than 1.5 million about 2500 years ago... plus the way that the assyrians dispersed people in the olden days was mix up all the different people that they caught... (thus you get the samaritans etc)... also could it really be the japanese? in the japanese royal family are the most sacred japanese religious artifact, an ark with 3 things in it.. one of the things is a mirror which has words written in hebrew on it... i'm not trying to start up a new doctrine, just pointing out other facts... facts with much more evidence than BI..

quote:

We do have a promised land, which is at present outside Palestine, because Israel was banished to "a place of their own" when already in Palestine (2 Samuel 7:10). 

Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, 
that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither 
shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,

reading between the lines for an agenda again.. at this time israel hadn't been complete one (and it never was because of disobedience)... i'd suggest doing a study on planting... you can be in a place but still with a migratory mindset, and not settled, but have God plant you there... and plus all those tribes (european ones) are in so many places and still moving moving moving..

quote:

Palestine has now become a haven for Jewish people, and no people is more deserving of the right to some respite from their troubles. But the story of Bible prophecy, whence we find the 'promised land' is not measuring up to expectations. The desert is not blooming as a rose; the land is not over-flowing with milk and honey. In suggesting that the modern state of Israel is not that seeking identity today in Palestine is not to belittle or denigrate the Jewish people nor any other.

to me the reestablishment of hte nation of israel as prophecied with minute detail and very timely, and also the persecution the jews have served over the mellenia is much much more evidence than BI... also the fact that it has so much world attention is another indicator, but also scripture and the eschatological significance of jerusalem (not london, washington, sydnyey) is important.. And God has blessed israel (despite them not recognising their messiah) and israel has been turned (and still int he process) of a forgotten wasteland into quite production land, reforested and all..miracles to the left, miracles to the right..

quote:

We are entitled to ask, though: 'where is the throne, and where is the kingdom'? If it is not where we have suggested - then where?

the throne is where Christ lives, our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit , the kingdom of God , lives inside us according to Jesus.. though when He returns He will reign as King also...

quote:

A greater Israel is yet to be revealed. It will be a nation that evidences the hundreds of Bible prophecies of prosperity and well-being, a nation with the nominated emblems and which will have the promised royal continuity. Israel will eventually be a model to lead the world into God's future.

now this is where things get scary, where this doctrine can be used completely wrongly with great evil.. people say anti-this and anti-that.. like anti-christ, but its better translated, counterfiet... or false.. like conterfiet prophets, conterfiet christ.. See the devil wants God's position and recognition, He's all about counterfieting, in the end days , false doctrines, that even the elect may be decieved


mat 24:24
24   For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall 
shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they 
shall deceive the very elect.

This sort of doctrine makes way for a false israel, and a false religion, a counterfiet system to be in place.. israel is an entity with a destiny of God, as is the church... aren't we security enough in our identity in Christ as to have to steal israel's also? And suddenly the focus is taken off Jesus and onto the things of man..

i didn't cover genetic yet.. but according to your pict,celt,normans, anglosaxon theory... these tribes would have to have genetic makeup that shows they were decendants of abraham..
scientists have isolated genes that show decendants noahs sons.. and demographis by those are very interesting.. but getting more specifc
also genes from decendants of abraham, which jews and arabs and some other semetic peoples all have... also genes of decentands of jacob which only jews have (and those with some jewish blood).... and those european tribes are far from having these genes... (this gene find is kind of also scary, as it could be used in the future to persecute jews again- but thats not what i am discussing here)
but besides these facts BI has some dangerous features..
one how it takes away jesus as the fufillment of the line of judah and puts it in europe, it interferes with God's plan for israel, and establishes a basis on which great deception and harm could be established..

also another question... if Jesus had come first to the lost sheep of israel (remember this is much after the assryian dispersia of the 10 tribes) he came for those we today call Jews first... unless he took a trip to england (which some say he did), or did he actually go over to america and give the gospel the indians as the mormons propose?


and as far as teh scriptures you quote to support BI... they are biased..
they were probably chosen with this technique "we believe this, and lets search the bible and see what we can twist to support our belief, they have been heavily twisted to fit into the framework of BI, and at most are like chasing the wind...

but lets go over some


Amos 9:8-9
8   Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, 
and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not 
utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9   For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all
 nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain
 fall upon the earth.

very good scripture, and he did sift them amoung the nations, but don't see it in the context of BI, but in the context of ezekiel and other such prophecies for example a scripture of the same theme.


Ezekiel 6:8
Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the 
sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.

the point is that God will keep a remant of israel, fufilling his promise to abraham.. and they will be scatered (as they were in the dispora) remember also the timeline of these prophecies don't fit well with the 'pict,anglosaxon' thing.

and God promised to bring them back.... back to israel of course, not back to england or wherever, he dispersed them and said he would bring them back.. there are many scriptures on this, below is one example


Ezekiel 39
26   After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses 
whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their 
land, and none made them afraid.
27   When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out 
of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many 
nations;
28   Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them 
to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto 
their own land, and have left none of them any more there.


.........


Genesis 12:1-3
And I will make of thee [Abraham] a great nation, and I will bless thee, 
and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: 
and in thee shall all families [tribes, peoples, ethnic groupings] of the 
earth be blessed.

What a beatiful scripture, the starting and theme scripture of a bible course i teach... the abrahamic covenant.. has nothing to do with BI of course though.. but He blesses abraham, so that abraham in turn would be a blessing to all the peoples of the world.. God's stragetic of using israel and the church in his grand plan of redemption... the great commission jesus gave is a paraphrase of this.. Israel fufilled this through many people from abraham blessing those he came in contact with, to joseph, daniel, ester, solomon with his wisdom, jonah (however reluctantly) and many many many many more through the mechanisms of (voluntary go, involuntary go, voluntary come, involuntary come) also in acts those mechanisms and also in church history and missions are active in taking the greatest blessing (and paul says God revealed the gospel to abraham in adcance) to the people groups of the earth, Blessed to be a Blessing - to the nations.. Paul often talks about abraham , the abrahamic covenant, how the law 400 or so years later didn't cancel out this blessing.. Also Jesus is the fufillment of the 'decendant', and we as christians are spiritual heirs of abraham, and Jesus gave us the same thing, He blessed us and wants us to share the blessing - of salvation and the good news around to the peoples of the earth.. our decendant of abraham status comes from Christ sacrifice, the gift of salvation - not from the fact we are decended from the lost 10 tribes of israel...
yet israel still exists , and GOd loves her also, but israel is the jews, not the brits etc..


Genesis 22:15-18
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second 
time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast 
done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy 
seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea 
shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because 
thou hast obeyed my voice.

God reaffirms and clarifies the abrahamic covenant to abraham yet again (you know it takes 2 or 3 times to get something through to a man - God repeating himself to make an important point, he also repeat this same promise to issac and jacob (as God is called the God of "abraham,isaac and jacob")
Here you see BI takes away the focus from Jesus onto their human doctrine..
Isaac was an example of Jesus - God's only son, being sacrificed (but God provides a lamb) - many believe that this is abraham did this at the exact location where jesus was crucified.. it was prophetic of a sort.. but not as prophetic as the seed... Jesus was the decentant of abraham by which all the nations of the earth were blessed (though israel's existance has blesed the nations of the earth in the past (and recent present also) as have the spiritual decentands of abraham.. but the greatest blessing and the only blessing that means Jesus - focused back on Jesus.. do a hebrew study on the word seed in this scripture.. in once sence its decentants yet other one specific decendant, Jesus who also ties in with the decendant of David who will rule forever.. So you see BI takes the focus off Jesus, onto man..


psalm
Psalm 89:35-37
34
    No, I will not break my covenant;
        I will not take back a single word I said.
35
    I have sworn an oath to David,
        and in my holiness I cannot lie:
36
    His dynasty will go on forever;
        his throne is as secure as the sun,
37
        as eternal as the moon,

here again, pointing to Jesus, and watered down into a human meaning by BI , thus detracting from Jesus... and God's longsuffering, His redemption plan , intricately detailed from before Creation, expertly carried out, fufilled by Jesus when he died on the cross and said "It is accomplished" his plan of redemption, his love for all the people off the world, for he wishes that non would perish, His eternal kingdom.. being watered down to mean some BI..
people read the whole psalm. and see prophetic of Jesus in it... not BI


I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an 
Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew...
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but 
rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to 
provoke them to jealousy.
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of 
them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Romans 11:1-2, 11-12

Here goes paul again.. Good guy he is..Ok how does this relate to BI? Paul was a dispora jew - not from the original 10 tribe dispertion. The dispora jews had synagogues and worshiped yahweh- jehovah. And this shows that he has a plan for them.. for the Jews (whom are coming back to israel is great numbers these days), He loves them passionately..
these group of people paul is taking about, the jews, how is that related to the anglosaxons etc.. an anglosaxon is not an israelite, they didn't worship yahweh, they wouldn't be jealous of the gentiles recieving christ, because they wouldn;t have the fainted idea about the messiah, yahweh, salvation or anything as they didn't have the OT, torah etc that the jews did..
So yes God has a plan for us gentiles, I'm glad to be a saved gentile believer, and He has a plan for the jews.. but in no way does this make certian europeans israelites - other than is common to christians.. spiritual heirs of abraham through the blood of Jesus..

I hope that you also Christian can see through the lies and distortions of BI, and how it detracts from Jesus.. and i hope that others can also..

as far as old europeans maybe believing this... they probably did... people these days believe many things - we were planted here by aliens yada yada... it makes sense with the fallen human nature we have, that when these tribes got contact with the gospel (amen, salvation to them) so people in our typical superiority complex tried to identify with christianity strongly and sooo soo much wanted to find a link to make them actually jews- the real jews.. they could feel good that they are the choosen people,and actually wo and behold , england is the promised land..

Karl

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited September 17, 2002).]
Christian
Member

Posts: 400
From: Australia
Registered: 09-15-2002
 		I am too busy to read all of this now. Just one question.

quote:

Hey but Jesus is the fufillment of God's promise to abraham and to david, and He is the KIng, the Messiah, not some irish lad or lass

So Jesus is returning to take over the throne from Himself ? The 'spiritual Israel' concept is as common as the idea that Israel is now restored, being full of 'Israelites' who are of every nation on earth. It really boils down to watering down God's promises to nothingness as far as I can see. To try and muddy the waters by then claiming that this presents some sort of false Christ does me a great disservice. you read our web page, why do you need to add your suppositions to what it said ? The fact that the truth can be used wrongly with 'great evil' does not disprove the truth, any more than the KKK makes the idea of following Jesus wrong or evil.

quote:

scientists have isolated genes that show decendants noahs sons

On the basis that we are all Noah's children ? How can they know that is what they have done ?
Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
 		i don't want to get sidetracked from the main points of my post , i want you (when you have time) to prayerfully consider it, and take the post as a whole...

and i don't know how you can say God's long term plan of redemption for all peoples including israel is watering down.. and the way you use 'spiritual israel' is much different from what i said.. all i said was qouting paul..
-- you are correct about the KKK etc etc... but just saying that doesn't validate BI either, and the overwhelming proof point to the falsehood of BI.. but don't reply just to this post.. reply to the whole original post..

and the reason i add my own comments? rather than just le tyour website speak for itself... well every speech with an agenda etc etc is written in a way to help the common people think , and it often makes sense in the context of itself.. but when put under the scrutiny of light turns out to be something else... Lord at history, propaganda by hitler, communist, humanist, even say in abortion arena... why can't i make my comments? i was a post by me..

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
Christian
Member

Posts: 400
From: Australia
Registered: 09-15-2002
 		I didn't mean that you could not comment, it's jus that you implied an agenda that is not present.
Danno

Member

Posts: 15
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 01-20-2001
 		From following this "discussion", I would like to add a little bit. Please don't refer to the land as "Palestine" when talking about the land of Israel before 135 A.D. Here is an excellent website that explains that the name "Palestine" has, since 135 A.D. been used as an insult to the Jewish People and God's plan of redemption to the Jewish People:

http://www.oursalvation.com/musicals.htm

Before 135 A.D., the Romans used the terms Judea and Galilee to refer to this land.

Secondly, Karl, what you are seeing on that RCI website is just another form of something called "Replacement Theology". I have even seen that scripture "All Israel will be saved" explained that the summation of all the Jewish people that have put their faith in Jesus over the past 2000 years is equal to all Israel! This theology comes in all sorts of interesting forms. I do not intend to get into any sort of theological argument here, just making some observations here.
Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
 		danno,

yeah, sorry about that.. that was why i put "palenstine" in " "... its justi didn't want to use israel because in the BI context that can does not neccisarily mean the specific middle eastern place near the dead sea and the jordan etc... i suppose i should have used Canaan..

so Danno.. are you in Israel? or do you live... ok no need to ask.. i can see seattle,WA in your details.. That's the area my wife is from (Port ANgeles, WA) and my company in tacoma...

so how long have you been a christian? how did you jewish family respond.. or were they already messianic jews?
Just recently i have been able to rejoice with a good friend of mine, whose Jewish mother just gave her heart to the Lord..


Christian,
When i say there are agenda's there.. I don't neccisarily mean obvious ones, or intentional ones, there have been many ideologies come up with that were by sincere people, who didn't think out the ramifications, and history suffered because of it.. but anyway i don't want to get the topic changed again..

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
Danno

Member

Posts: 15
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 01-20-2001
 		Karl,

My testimony is on my website:

http://www.unitygame.com/what_i_believe.htm

We have an exciting conference coming up here in the area to help educate and encourage Christians to support Israel. It is:

http://www.standingwithisrael.com/israel/splash.htm

If you are in the area (Tacoma or Port Angeles?), you might
consider dropping in at the conference. I will probably be
there for the evening programs. The conference is Oct 3-5.

Danno
D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
 		I had the same problem... check out my site about British Cockney's www.britishcockney.com

--D-SIPL
onfirepreacher

Member

Posts: 14
From: Bray, Wicklow, Ireland
Registered: 09-14-2002
 		Hi All especially Christian,
I am an Englishman who lives in Ireland. I have studied Irish and English history, speak the Irish language, read Biblical Hebrew, Greek and Syriac as well as a couple of other ancient languages and modern ones too. If there's one area where there should be some evidence of another culture or influence, it's always in the languages. First and foremost, there isn't one jot of Hebrew in the Irish language, and I'm talking about modern Irish and ancient Ohgam too here. There are no Hebrew inscriptions, no Hebrew monuments either. The BI "legends" make people in Ireland laugh when they hear them. We have a country steeped in history, and rich in artifacts showing the development of the culture.
When unfortunately decieved BI folks begin to look into Irish history and legend they discover the fairytale that BI is. Things like the Tuatha de Dannan (came from the North not the East), Original Irish were Gaelic, not Celtic (they came in about 500AD). The British coronation stone is of Scotish origin, not Jewish (this has been scientifically tested and proven).
The real "inventor" of BI was a man from Newfoundland named Richard Brothers (b.25/12/1757). He was originally a Christian, but had very unusual beliefs later in life like he believed a woman was to descend from heaven and shower him with money,love and happiness. He also believed London was Babylon the great and was to be destroyed by God in 1791. When it wasn't, he claimed it was because of his prayers. He also went on to prophecy the end of all european monarchies within the year, that was yet another of many false prophecies. In 1795 he wrote his book about the restoration of Israel, claiming it was imminent and revealed by God to him alone. All the doctrines of BI are contained in that book, as well as many other crazy prophecies (that book has been plagarised and copied by many BI's but they haven't quoted the source). As a result of the book and his demanding the king of England abdicate, he was put into a lunatic asylum where he spent the next 11 years. When he was released he spent the final 30 years of his life alone, making, desiging and putting together heraldic shields, uniforms and flags for the "Soon to be revealed" sons of Israel.
Hope this will shed a litle more light on BI for you Christian. I don't write this to "Get You", or prove you wrong, I write this with Christian Love to help you see where BI came from, and help you be noble, like a Beraen, and to search the Scriptures rather than be misled by the legends and tales of men.
Yours In Jesus' Mighty Name
Onfirepreacher

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Shaun Aisbitt <><
1John5:13
SirGak

Junior Member

Posts: 7
From: Chicago
Registered: 08-04-2002
 		I think we need to be careful about judging one another. All too often, I encounter a person with a partial knowledge of a topic/subject, who makes definitive statements based out of that incomplete knowledge. Friends, let's remember that even if we disagree on a topic/subject, let's not be too quick to cast apersions on another person's character and spiritual walk. God alone is Judge of that. As Christians, we do need to agree on the essential things, like the elements of the Gospel by which we became Christians, but we must be less derogatory and more charitable to each other on non-essentials, for instance, such as whether we believe in a Dispensational view on prophecy (including the Rapture, Great Tribulation, Second Coming, etc), or whether we hold to another view of prophecy (the world proceeds right up to Judgment Day, bam! end of everything, start of Eternity), or for another instance, whether "sons of God" in Genesis means humans or angels. I think the Moderators are saying the same things when they caution against "flaming".