The following message is my....*sigh* Ugly looking version of my paper on the subject. If you would like a pretty copy, I will be glad to send you one through email as per request. I would like people who want to to give me feedback as to exactly why they do not like this paper / interpretation if they do not agree after reading it.

I would like it also if anyone wanted a copy that they could put in their own comments, highlighted in another color, that they would send back to me for any possible corrections / &c.

And if someone would like to refute the paper, that's okay. Just address each point the paper does. Thanks!

[This message has been edited by JerryRowe (edited September 12, 2002).]

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
There were giants [Nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Genesis 6:1-4

Many people want to say that Genesis 6 does not teach that angels and humans procreated and had giant children. This conclusion comes primarily from the contention that “the sons of God” are not angels, that “the sons of man” are Cain’s descendants, and that the giants are anything besides giants. This paper will attempt to demonstrate that the passage is indeed referring to angels when it says “sons of God,” the daughters of men when it says “the daughters of men,” and giants when it says “giants.”
First, there are five instances of the phrase “the sons of God” in the Old Testament scriptures. Two of them appear in Genesis 6:1-4. The other three instances appear in the book of Job. They are 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7. All three of these passages clearly indicate angels.

Job 1:6 – Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 – Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 – When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Clearly, the “sons of God” in Job 1:6 and 2:1 are angels (in this case, ones that have not sinned). Further, Job 38:7 can only refer to angels because they are rejoicing at something no human could have possibly seen: the creation of the earth. Certainly, the Bible interprets the phrase “sons of God” for us. But there is more indication that the Genesis passage refers to angels.
The Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament scriptures, directly renders the phrase “sons of God” as “angels” (Greek agglos, pronounced angle-os), leaving little room for alternate interpretation. Further, many other ancient religious writings share the same formula. The book of Enoch (hardly a trustworthy source, but one that shows the common knowledge of man at the time), in chapters 6 and 7, says that the angels had children by women and that the children were giants. Other ancient sources include the stories of the Sumerians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Incans, Myans, Persians, Grecians, Indians, Bolivians, Babylonians, those on the south sea Islands, the Sioux islands, and Chinese. Flavius Josephus also simply declares that there were angels who procreated with women (Antiquities, 1.3.1). He promotes this as standard Jewish history and common Jewish understanding.
For those who like “early church fathers,” the angel view was supported by Philo of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Lactantius, Amrose, Athenagoras, and Julian. For those to whom names of people mean anything, many modern scholars adopt the angel view.
Further, there is more Biblical evidence located in the New Testament that supports the interpretation of “sons of God” in Genesis 6 as “angels.” In the book of Jude, the concept of “going after strange flesh” is mentioned in conjunction with angels who apparently left heaven:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 6, 7

This passage in Jude says that the angels’ sin is “even as” Sodom and Gomorrah. The phrase “even as” makes the sins of the two groups sound at least comparable, if not of the same kind. Sodom and Gomorrah are infamous in scripture for their homosexuality, but going after “strange flesh” makes it sound like they were going after another kind of flesh, not of the same kind. After all, the Greek words for “strange flesh” in this passage are “heteros sarx.” “Sarx” means, of course, flesh. “Heteros” means “another thing of a different kind.” This is where English gets words like “Heterosexual,” meaning being attracted to members of the other sex. Of course, the interpretation of Sodom and Gomorrah being heterosexual would not make sense.
However, the idea that they slept with animals (bestiality) would fit quite well, as the Bible says that “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds” (I Corinthians 15:29). Bestiality would be the same kind of thing as an angel sleeping with a human, it would seem. Also, interestingly, and in a related vein, the devil is often rightly accused as being the author of confusion. Leviticus 18:23 gives an indication of what other kinds of confusion people may have neglected to consider: “Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.” To “confuse” is literally “to mix together.”
Finally, II Peter 2:4-6 seems to also indicate that what occurred during the days of Noah is the sin that caused the angels who followed Satan to fall, and again ties the three events of the angels sinning, the flood, and the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah together. It would seem that God intends to teach something concerning the relatedness of these events, as they are repeated in like patterns.

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
II Peter 2:4-6

However, in order to achieve maximum confidence in the interpretation of “sons of God” as “angels,” the only alternate view should be examined. As problems with this view increase, confidence in it as an explanation should decrease.
The contention that the “sons of God” are not angels also asserts that the “sons of God” refers instead to the sons of Seth, one of Adam’s sons. Since Seth was godly, the argument goes, his lineage was also godly. The idea is that Cain, another one of Adam’s many children (Genesis 5:4), was not so godly, and that Cain’s evil children are being referenced by the phrase “daughters of man [Adam].” The Sethite argument says that the sin of Seth’s descendents was to not maintain the separation between each other. However, this view has many problems, aside from those mentioned earlier (such as the argument’s recent invention, lack of sources, and no textual support from scripture itself, to name a few).
First, this view was created in the 5th century by Julius Africanus in response to Celsus and Julian the Apostate’s attacks on the Bible. They used the angel / giant claims of Genesis as a point of ridicule. No ancient sources before the 5th century support the Sethite view or contradict the angel view. This is problematic, as there is a total lack of history attached to this interpretation of scripture. No one before the 5th century looked at scripture and thought Genesis 6 referred to Sethites.
Second, as mentioned before, the phrase “sons of God” is never used to refer to believers (or “God’s people”) anywhere in the Old Testament. Further, all uses of the phrase “sons of God” in the Old Testament clearly refer to angels, beings of power who go to and from heaven and do things that humans do not, like see the earth get created and praise God while watching, or present themselves before God.
Third, Seth’s godliness is inferred. Noah, not Seth, is the only one that the text says God gave notice. Noah’s family seems to only get on board the ark by proxy.
Fourth, Seth’s ‘godly’ sons perished in the flood. If they were so godly, why did they perish?
Fifth, the grammatical antithesis of God / man is ignored.
Sixth, notably, there is no basis for a subset of the “daughters of man (Adam).” The belief in a subset is assumed, and cannot be proven, especially from the text. Such an assumption is a textbook example of what “reading into the text” is.
Seventh, the “mandate” of separation of Seth’s children from Cain’s children is also inferred and assumed; it is not stated. Separation of mankind only occurs after the flood and after the tower of Babel. Further, the actual mandate of separation is imposed upon Isaac (much later in scripture), not Seth. After all, God said in Genesis 6:12 that all flesh was corrupt, not just a particular group.
Eighth, perhaps most humorously, the Sethite theory does not account for the giants. This point is completely glossed over and not explained by proponents of the modern Sethite theory. The children were clearly gigantic. Every other instance of “giant” (or “Nephilim”) in the whole Bible only refers to giants (Numbers 13, Deuteronomy 1, Joshua 15, Judges 1, II Samuel 21, to name a few). After all, ever wonder where Goliath came from? The Bible simply explains that he descended from them. So how, or why, would godly and non-godly people have giant babies when they marry? The Sethite theory, however, does not account for this fact, and cannot.
Ninth, the text says that there were giants in the earth in those days, “and also after that,” &c. If the text intends to teach that it was sons of Seth and sons of Cain that were intermarrying, it is impossible for this to occur after the flood. However, the text clearly says that there were giants in the earth in those days and after that. So did God not kill everything on the earth? Did some of Cain’s descendants live? The survival of Cain’s descendents would be necessary for the Sethite theory to remain intact.

A final note on this subject: Jesus said in Luke 17:26, “And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.” Also, Matthew 24:37 says “But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” What were the days of Noah like?

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Genesis 6:4

It does seem significant that in the very next verse in both gospel accounts, Jesus mentions the marrying and giving in marriage that occurred in the days of Noah. Why does that matter? Because of the marrying that occurred back then:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Genesis 6:1-2

But does anyone think that giants are going to be on the earth when Christ comes back?

Just read Daniel 2, and look at the fourth kingdom. Read the passage very slowly, and look at every feature of the kings. Be not afraid. Because God is in control, and God wins in the end.

In summary:

Evidence For “Angels”:

· All other Old Testament passages containing “sons of God” (ben elohim) only refer to angels.
· Unanimous agreement from ancient sources
o LXX – “angels”
o Flavius Josephus – “angels”
o Book of Enoch – “angels”
o World-wide legends – “gods” and “angels”
o “Early church fathers” (until 5th century)
· New Testament support
o Jude 6-7
o II Peter 2:4-6

Evidence Against “Seth”:

· New understanding of old passage
· Unique use of “sons of God” (ben elohim) in the Old Testament, with no justification for uniqueness
· Goes against usual understanding of “sons of God” (ben elohim)
· Seth’s inferred godliness
· Seth’s sons were actually not righteous (perished)
· Grammatical antithesis ignored
· No basis for subset of “daughters of man (Adam)” – Assumed
· No mandate on separation of Seth’s line from Cain’s line – Assumed
· No accounting or explanation for supernatural origin of giant children
· No explanation for how giants get on earth after flood

What better evidence could be hoped for?

And...
Think of how many scriptures you have, as a Biblical literalist, that you feel give a clear teaching on any of the following issues (regardless of your actual stance):

Masturbation
Female Pastors
Church government
Alcohol Use
“The age of accountability” (which infants must pass before they can be damned to hell)
Praying for Lost People

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

Also in 1 Corinthians, it says that Adam is the first man but also that Jesus is the second man. So this would make sense that since Jesus is the Son of God, then Adam is also a son of God (as it says in Luke 3:38). So therefore Adam's lineage would be what is being referred to when it talks about "sons of God" in Genesis, and the "men" that it referes to are the ones created in Genesis 1 (this would also explain how when Cain left Adam and Eve he found other people).

In addition, the "Adam is the first man, Jesus is the second man" thing also shows that it's entirely possible that Adam wasn't the "first" man (since Jesus wasn't the "second" man).

This is just my two cents worth and just my view. This isn't really a "faith-defining" topic, but just something of interest. I don't have anything to directly refute that the "sons of God" weren't angels other than they were "neither male nor female" (although I've always heard people say that, I don't know where it is in the Bible, so don't quote me on that).

------------------
...

[This message has been edited by SaintA2J (edited April 17, 2007).]

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

------------------
Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited September 13, 2002).]

a. The Bible says God made men and women and then goes on to say that He formed a man and a woman. Two different events.

b. If we believe that God made one man and one woman and all races came from them, it means we believe in evolution, to form four distict races from two people.

c. Secondary to the fact that the Bible does not directly support this claim is the fact that if it were true, we would all be inbred.

No demons, fallen angels, or angels of any sort have had sex ever. Why ? Because there is no marriage in heaven, therefore there is no sex.

It's a shame that so many comic book interpretations come from reading one verse and mixing it with a lot of supposition instead of what other verses say.

"No marriage" is not "no sex organs."

Please read the paper. Thanks!

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

Perhaps because Adam and Eve were the first humans they were genetically perfect - inbreeding would not be a problem.

21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

Is God exaggerating here ??? Lying to us ??? No! To say God cannot do this is to be like the men who mocked Noah as he built the Ark.

------------------
Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited September 14, 2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeanManInOz:

a. The Bible says God made men and women and then goes on to say that He formed a man and a woman. Two different events.

---

No, a retelling of the same event. Just prior to the second telling, it says there was "not a man to till the ground." Indeed, it says in the verse prior to that, that "God made the earth and the heavens". If this is not a retelling, maybe you believe there are two earths and heavens too? Lastly, other scripture says in six days the Lord made heaven and earth and all that is in them - yet this second account is told after mentioning the seventh day, thus it is a retelling of events earlier or else other scripture is lying.

quote:

---

b. If we believe that God made one man and one woman and all races came from them, it means we believe in evolution, to form four distict races from two people.

---

There is only one race, the human race. The differences we see can be attributed to biological reproduction and climate adaptation.

quote:

---

c. Secondary to the fact that the Bible does not directly support this claim is the fact that if it were true, we would all be inbred.

---

As others have mentioned, this should not have been a problem, for two reasons: God could/would prevent negative effects, and even negative effects themself would be minimized due to the near-perfect physical condition of humans that close to the time of creation.

quote:

---

No demons, fallen angels, or angels of any sort have had sex ever. Why ? Because there is no marriage in heaven, therefore there is no sex.

---

According to that logic, no demons or fallen angels do anything bad (blasphemy, tempt someone to sin, etc), because there is nothing bad in heaven. Besides, marriage != sex. Are you saying fallen angels cannot do something good angels will not do?!?

quote:

---

It's a shame that so many comic book interpretations come from reading one verse and mixing it with a lot of supposition instead of what other verses say.

---

And yet it was the only interpretation from the time it was written until abou 400 A.D. The "line of Seth" interpretation was created to appease and make scripture more palatable those who thought the Bible contains comic book myths. It is a shame that people reject the plain sense of scripture because they perceive as "comic book". Shall we change the interpretation of the temptation of Christ, his resurrection, his second coming, etc., as well?

------------------

[This message has been edited by Briant (edited September 14, 2002).]

In any case, the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think we'll really know what happens until we get into heaven. I still go with the theory that there were other humans besides Adam and Eve (see my post above), but most people don't agree with that and that's fine with me. We all came from God anyways.

------------------
...

[This message has been edited by SaintA2J (edited April 17, 2007).]

1. where are the giants ?

2. where are the fallen angels - are our women not good enough for them anymore ?

Loving God enough to live our lives according to His Word NOW matters more than arguing over what happened 6,000 years ago.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeanManInOz:

1. where are the giants ?

---

Who knows. Probably died off, probably in the flood.

quote:

---

2. where are the fallen angels - are our women not good enough for them anymore ?

---

2 Pe 2:4-5 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; [5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

quote:

---

I should add that I agree that all of this stuff is peripheral. It does not matter if Cain was the first astronaut, what matters is that people are filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and preaching and living that experience.

---

Yes, it's a tad peripheral. But I'd definitely rather talk about this then get into the whole tongues thing again!

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by meanmaninoz:
So you think Cain was an astonaut then ?

---

No.

------------------

[This message has been edited by Insanepoet (edited September 15, 2002).]

I have never spoken to anyone like this before but this what I believe so at least I'm being honest with you.

You truly have the spirit of the Antichrist in you. You are so consumed by pride. You see yourself as a wise righteous man, and will never consider that your opinions are anything less than perfect. You have faith, but it is in the teachings of the RCI and not Jesus. You have love, but it is for your own pride and not for God. Your pride prevents you from knowing God. You have set youself up as judge over others because you do not know the all knowing God who will judge men fairly. You mock others for believing in an all powerfull creator God because you do not know Him.

I do not mean to offend, but to encourage you to open your eyes and your heart. May God forgive me if my motives are wrong.

I believe God could cover the whole world in water tomorrow ( well, He could except that He is bound by His Word, and HE promised he would never bring a great flood again ), but that the 'world' spoken of in Genesis is the area in which God was interacting with His creation, and that it was this region which was flooded. Again, I don't think it matters if I am wrong, there's no questionairre waiting half way up for those who would meet the Lord in the air, but that's what the Bible would have me to believe.

The reason I brought it up is that I don't believe the entire world was populated from Noah's sons. And I flat out reject as ludicrous the idea that the different races are genetic variation. If the world is 6,000 years old, then it must happen so quickly that people in America should look like American Indians by now, and some Aussies should look like Aborigines, they've been here long enough. It's really hard to go through life telling people you believe in creation over evolution when a lot of well meaning people sit up late at night trying to find 'scientific' ways to explain things the Bible does not actually say. It's like having to explain that I am fundamentally Pentecostal ( I speak in tongues ), but while most 'Pente' churches do not preach salvation, they do add a lot to the Bible which I do not.

Also, did you get a word that Rowan said?

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

quote:

---

there are traits within a person that do not neccessarily show. That's why in familys all the brother don't look the same. And mirco evolution does exist, a species can change within the species to suit it's environment better.

---

Yes, that is right - small 'e' evolution where a species has tendencies genetically built in which come to the fore when needed. And if that is what race is, my wife would be black, she's been here long enough.

quote:

---

Also, did you get a word that Rowan said?

---

Yes. Did you get a word of what I said ?

He said the following

quote:

---

You truly have the spirit of the Antichrist in you.

---

This is a throwaway line, like calling a church a cult. It's said often enough to be meaningless. It's also blasphemy, seeing as I am filled with the Holy Spirit. But that's not the point.

quote:

---

You are so consumed by pride.

---

Amen - I am rightly proud of my God and what He can do. Oh, did you mean pride in myself ? I guess they said that of Jesus too, because He didn't say what people expected or accept other points of view as equally valid to what God says. Instead, He drove the money changers out of the temple, and called the Pharisees a brood of vipers.

quote:

---

You see yourself as a wise righteous man, and will never consider that your opinions are anything less than perfect.

---

Actually, I see myself as somewhat of a schmuck who has through no act of his own been blessed beyond belief by God. My opinions are usually highly opinionated ( ask me about anything carnal, and I'm likely to have a strongly held opinion ), but my opinion is not the point. Everything I say about God I back from the Bible, and experience has told me that generally speaking people here are not interested. 1 Cor 12-14 and Acts 8 are cases in point. EVERYONE here is entrenched in what they believe. The only difference is that what I believe differs from what you believe, and I believe I have presented logically why the Bible supports what I have to say, and the usual response is fairly lacking in cohesion.

quote:

---

You have faith, but it is in the teachings of the RCI and not Jesus.

---

Another old chestnut. We don't believe in your God, therefore you don't believe in Jesus. I could equally say the same to you and it would be equally meaningless. What the Bible says is the ONLY thing that matters.

quote:

---

You have love, but it is for your own pride and not for God. Your pride prevents you from knowing God.

---

This stuff sounds impressive, does it not ? It has no meaning though. The next bit is priceless....

quote:

---

You have set youself up as judge over others because you do not know the
all knowing God who will judge men fairly.

---

I am amused at the irony of your telling me this, while at the same time presuming to judge me completely and utterly as a faithless, prideful man who is far from God, simply because I have experienced what the Bible offers and I preach it.

quote:

---

You mock others for believing in an all powerfull creator God because you do not know Him.

---

I may come across as mocking beliefs which are not in the Bible, but because of people like you, I presume that there is no-one on this group who is willing to be corrected by scripture. I post largely to understand the basis for the beliefs being brought up, with no expectation of finding any faith or willingness to learn. I have been online for many years now, and in that time I've heard many things, and I've learned many things about the Bible. If I've learned none of them here, that is more a reflection on what others post than my ability to learn.

I don't like to be unnecessarily rude, but you are a hypocrite. You tell me I set myself up as a judge, which is not true, while setting yourself up as a judge over me. One problem with Internet discussion is that you have no idea who I am, and vice versa. It's hard to tell if someone is joking, if someone posts abruptly because they are in a hurry, having a bad day, or just plain rude. I am usually in a hurry, although as I said, I have my own reasons for being abrupt. One of them is that this site is close to being completely dead, and unless I cut right to the chase, I might wait a week to get to the point I want to, where I am hearing the explanation for why someone believes something despite what the Bible says on the subject.

So you see, I did read it, but I thought it unwise to reply fully. Now that I have, I hope you can see my point, although I doubt you agree with it, I am sure my being filled with the Holy Spirit and unwilling to compromise on the gospel will remain for you evidence of my being in a cult, or proud, or however else you want to have a one size fits all reason not to consider a word that I say here.

Christian

quote:

---

Your pride tells you demons have no power over you

---

No, that would be Jesus. 'First the strong man of the house must be overcome'. Do you believe demons can overcome Jesus Christ ?

quote:

---

but your pride does not put its faith in Jesus

---

I dunno what my pride puts it's faith in, I'll ask it when I see it, OK ?

quote:

---

and so deceives you, which is why they do have power over you - enough to move your lips and turn your heart cold.

---

You are really good at this, you know. You should write childrens books.

quote:

---

Who has bewitched you ?

---

I remain sufficiently entranced by the love of God to persist in preaching the Gospel, even when it's to people as rude as you seem to want to be.

I ask again - on what basis do you claim to know and judge me, bar that I am able to support a point of view from the Bible that does not sit well with you ?

Christian

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

quote:

---

What, do you think you are invinsible!?

---

No, God is.

quote:

---

That the demonic forces cannot touch you?

---

Do you have an answer for what I said from the Bible ? Jesus said that for a man to rob a house, he must first overcome the strong man of that house. Who is the strong man of my house, if I am filled with the Holy Spirit ?

quote:

---

You mock Satan with power that are not your own.

---

I tend more not to think about him until he is brought up by other people. I'm too busy thinking about God.

quote:

---

God LETS Satan do his thing to edify his people,

---

Please support this from the Bible. James says God is not tempted, neither tempts He any man. Instead we are drawn away by our own lusts and enticed. Also, the Bible says that no temptation comes upon us except what is common to all men. The whole 'God sends bad things to help us grow' thing is unBiblical, and quite silly really. 'If you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more ' &tc, &tc.

quote:

---

and it seem to me that you could use some edifying.

---

Could you explain what you mean by the term and why you think I need it ? Is it being built up to be taught to be scared of the devil, instead of trusting in God ?

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

So please, if you'd like to discuss this, explain the verses I mentioned, don't use other verses to try and prove the ones I quoted wrong. Only an interpretation which takes into account all of scripture can be correct.

I will not answer any of your queries for you will twist and bend the words to make them to your liking.

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

quote:

---

I will not answer any of your queries for you will twist and bend the words to make them to your liking.

---

I am sorry that as per usual I've started a discussion with someone who resorts to telling me that I am 'twisting words' when they have no answer for what the Bible says.

Here God tell us to arm ourselves against Satan. Now why would He tell us to do that if we are invinsible.

You can go to the scriptual gym all you want, but the truth remains, we are not invinsible against Satan and we can be decieved by him. Thinking that you cannot be mislead by Satan is foolishness and you deceive yourself by thinking that Satan cannot lie to you.

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

quote:

---

b. If we believe that God made one man and one woman and all races came from them, it means we believe in evolution, to form four distict races from two people.
c. Secondary to the fact that the Bible does not directly support this claim is the fact that if it were true, we would all be inbred.

---

not neccissarily, adam and eve were genetically diverse.. even today i know parents with a diverse mix or races in them, and their one of their offstring is very black while another is very white, while another has asian characteristics... (so from this couple, did 3 races evolve?)- no that would like saying if i took white light, and applied some filters and ending up with some red, some bue and green, that those colours evolved from the white light.. This is why adam and eve's son's and daugthers marrying wasn't incest and creating inbred dummies, they were so genetically diverse that problems wouldn't be created... Actually most races today are the result of interbreeding (on a greater scale)... Chinese people as a whole , through interbreeding have lost certian genes that i may have and visa versa, actually some races are prone to different diseases because of the lack of genetic diversity, but the problem gets even worse with interbreeding on the small (incest ) scale, and God in His divine wisdom and understanding on genetics which He created , bans it..

quote:

---

The reason I brought it up is that I don't believe the entire world was populated from Noah's sons. And I flat out reject as ludicrous the idea that the different races are genetic variation. If the world is 6,000 years old, then it must happen so quickly that people in America should look like American Indians by now, and some Aussies should look like Aborigines, they've been here long enough.

---

Sure my wife looks like native american - well because her european ancestors married some.... reintroduced into her family, gene ranges that had been filtered out long ago...

However beyond this natural and understandible genetic behaviour from sex and generations, there are other factors... factors that aren't so understandible, such as the fact like how women who spend time together eventually have their periods in sync.. and why there are full blooded jews in india and in china, who NEVER intermarried with the locals, yet over a period of a few hundred years have asian and indian features...

and actually you, as a person who believes in British Israelism, would really hgave to beleive in this genetic diversity and slight adaptation over time to explain why your english genes are so different from semetic and middle eastern ones...

Anyhow this has little to do with faith, other than taking the bible at face value... I believe that God created Adam and Eve, full stop (period if you are american)... If He didn't well i'll find out in Heaven, and either way it doesn't affect much how i live my life in Christ - today and tommorow..

God Bless..

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

---

such as the fact like how women who spend time together eventually have their periods in sync..

---

That's a myth. Ask your wife. I asked mine.

quote:

---

and why there are full blooded jews in india and in china, who NEVER intermarried with the locals, yet over a period of a few hundred years have asian and indian features...

---

Let me see - 'no, of COURSE I've never had sex with anyone else but you, dear'.

quote:

---

and actually you, as a person who believes in British Israelism, would really hgave to beleive in this genetic diversity and slight adaptation over time to explain why your english genes are so different from semetic and middle eastern ones...

---

I doubt you have the slightest idea what I believe in regard to BI. It has nothing to do with individual salvation, nor does it have anything to do with racial superiority, or genetics.

As you say, it ultimately does not matter, and it's my fault for bringing up extra-Biblical proofs in the first place.

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

being full of the spirit is when your family is killed and then write a hymn like "It is well with my Soul"

God lets Satan do his evil work to edify us. How will we learn to fight without any combat experience.

God trains His champions of the faith.

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

quote:

---

Do you really thing that just because you speak in tongues that nothing bad will happen.

---

No. Bad things can happen to me EQUALLY as they happen to a non-Christian. That is what the Bible says,

quote:

---

The Lord will do as He pleases. He will bless you, not because you did x y or z, but rather becasue HE so willed it.

---

The question is, what does He please, and has He bothered to tell us ?

quote:

---

being full of the spirit is when your family is killed and then write a hymn like "It is well with my Soul"

---

Being full of the Spirit is defined in the Bible as involving evidence. I don't know the hymn, but the circumstances you descrbie prove faith, not the Spirit.

quote:

---

God lets Satan do his evil work to edify us. How will we learn to fight without any combat experience.

---

Why do you keep posting this when I have shown it to be untrue from the Bible ? Did you not read my last post ? Can you not respond to the scriptures I quoted, as I did to explain my view of the scripture you brought up ? If you cannot, then your view is not consistent with the entire Bible, which is something you need to consider before replying again.

quote:

---

God trains His champions of the faith.

---

Why do we need to fight a battle that has been won ?

Just tossing this out for perhaps something in favor of God sending trials on us. Maybe I've missed the point. Is this addressing the same subject you are referring to, Christian?

quote:

---

1 Peter 1:6,7
6 You rejoice in this, though now for a short time you have had to be distressed by various trials 7 so that the genuineness of your faith--more valuable than gold, which perishes though refined by fire--may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Just tossing this out for perhaps something in favor of God sending trials on us. Maybe I've missed the point. Is this addressing the same subject you are referring to, Christian?

---

It's sort of addressing the same subject. Jesus said we would have tribulation, but He also said it would be the same as those in the world, the difference being that God would always provide a way out for us. In other words, God does not provide the tribulation, but the way out. If a Christians life had no hassles, where would the testimony of God be ? The dead churches are full of rich people who because they have it easy in this life, can easily believe in a God who does nothing. If we have more tribulation, it is only in the sense that a Christian does not follow his senses, and therefore battles things that others just go along with. But the central thing in terms of what I have been saying is that James says God does not tempt anyone, and as I said here, the Bible also says not only does God not cause bad things to happen to us, He promises that when they do He will make sure there is a way of escape.

I can look that verse up if you cannot find it, it's certainly there, but right now I've been answering emails and need to get to work.... :0)

Christian

GOd does not tempt us, He does not tempt us to sin. However He does provide way's out of temptation, He is our refuge, we can flee to Him...
but temptation and trails and persecution are different..

Actually we will have tribulations and persecutions MORE than that is common to non christians, Jesus said that He was persecuted for who He was, and He is the master, and us, his servants should expect to be treated no better and we will be persecuted for His sake.. and sometimes His sake doesn't give us a way out, other than matyrdom, but His grace is sufficent and He gives us strength in those times.. He never tempts us, but we do have trials and persecutions

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

---

Actually we will have tribulations and persecutions MORE than that is common to non christians, Jesus said that He was persecuted for who He was

---

That is also true, it's also the only sense in which Jesus causes us to have trials, those that come for His name's sake.

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

christian,
So if Jesus's lets us have trials and persecutions for His names sake,
why not for the point of building us up, bringing us to maturity etc.. I believe he lets things happen to us, that we consider perscution and harmful to our bodies, But he is more concerned about our character than our bodies and our comfort because He loves us dearly, and having the dross come to the surface, being refined , isn't always easy and painless, and He uses suffering (not temptation) in this.. Though he doesn't give us more than we can handle (thats if we handle it by abiding in Him)
if i get a cancer for instance, even if i never get healed of it, but having the cancer brings me into a place of deeper relationship with Christ, into a place where of living , understanding His grace, being a living testimony of one who knows the peace of God that trancends all understanding, peaceful despite such a horrid disease, and one who is living the rightouesness of Christ and in this place being a testimony that is affecting others for the sake of Christ and the furtherance of the gospel..
If i get put in jail for a crime i didn't do (like joseph) and i think its not fair, especially since i thought " we'll if i was put in here Lord for your sake, because i'm a christian i could handle that persecution, but Lord why did you let me get put in here for a crime i didn't do, which makes me- a christian look like a murderer and does you no justice"
but those times might refine me, and you never know whom i may reach while in prision, even thuogh i am suffering , and my wife is suffering and family is suffering from being seperated to me... It may well have been part of God's plans and purposes (jer 28) for me..

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

quote:

---

So if Jesus's lets us have trials and persecutions for His names sake,

---

What do you mean by 'lets us' ? He provides a way of escape, in other words a way to deal with situations.

God does NOT give people cancer or cause them to be put in jail. Allowing that those things can happen the same as they do to people who are not Christians is different to bringing those things to pass. 'If you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much MORE will God do the same' ?

I won't shelter my children totally from life because they have to learn to live. But I don't make them sleep outside so they can appreciate being homeless, or smack them randomly so they learn that life is cruel. I want them to know that I will always care for them, but that life itself can be disappointing. So I love them, I do not shelter them. I believe God is both more willing and more able to do the same.

James 1:2-4 NIV

Yes, God puts us through trials. It is His training course of Christian living.
God does not supply a way out of the situation, but rather He wants us to perserver through it, so we may mature.

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

quote:

---

Yes, God puts us through trials. It is His training course of Christian living.

---

James goes on to say the opposite - God is tempted by no-one, neither tempts He any man.

quote:

---

God does not supply a way out of the situation, but rather He wants us to perserver through it, so we may mature.

---

Jesus said the opposite - no temptation befalls us but that which is common to man, and God will provide a way out, so we can bear it.

Yes, we grow through our trials, and that is because we learn that it is God who provides a way for us to deal with them. No, God does not cause bad things to happen to us, see my comments on God being aa better father than we can hope to be.

Hebrews 12:5b-7 NIV.

Alright sunday school class. What is discipline.
O, O I know. It's hard stuff that daddy puts me through. Like when he spanks me and send me to time out.

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

And lol I just realized that we are now on whether or not God causes trials in our lives, when we started talking about whether or not angels could have kids.

God isn't going to make us sleep outside etc etc, He is not an handslapping oager (ahh i can't spell)...

yes he does provide a way to deal with thing..
But i believe that it was God's will for joseph to be put in jail etc etc... of course you as a parent can't make such decisions , in your not sheltering people for life, because you aren't in control of history, the universe etc etc, you don't know what will happen tommorow etc etc..

God told abraham about the fact that his decendants would be slaves in egypt for 400 years..
Satan tried to use joseph being sold into slavery in egypt, to stop the plans and purposes of God, to cause harm, to devour destroy etc, but God used it for good - not just in a manner of "this is what has happened, i better make the best out of it" but with devine wisdom and planning.. through the suffering of joseph in jail, many people were blessed, his family, but the world in general, the egyptians and all those people from starving lands coming to buy grain.. Joseph's suffering was part of God's plan for Josephs life, for refining and growing him, and also for the good of many for sharing the blessing of abraham... bellow genesis 12:1-3, the theme of israel, of the bible, of history

1Then the LORD told Abram, "Leave your country, your relatives, and your father's house, and go to the land that I will show you. 2I will cause you to become the father of a great nation. I will bless you and make you famous, and I will make you a blessing to others. 3I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. All the families of the earth will be blessed through you."

Here is a different mindsets of us..
I believe that God has specific plans and purposes for our lives, and that He has specific plans and purposes for history, and we can make ourselves availible to Him to use us and tranform us into usable vessels... I also believe that many of these plans and pursposes we don't know and only know in hindsight, but in others he leads us, is a lamp to our feet, and tells us.. I believe persecution and suffering are part of being a christian, and sometimes part of God's will (though there are ones to be rebuked etc) because God's will is bigger than if my stomach is full, I believe he is willing to sacrifice me and my family - part of the body of Christ, so that seeds would be planted and non christians would come to know his redemption... for in sacrificing say me and my family, He isn't really sacricing us.. We are already saved.. But that we may be a part of HIs plan for saving another , is a great thing, we are here on earth for a purpose, why does history continue? because God loves the world.. I want to be a witness for Christ in the way i live, in the things i say.. i don't particularly want to die a painful death or suffer losses , but if i do that, for the glory of GOd, and i pray that fruit would come of it..

i do believe that GOd uses suffering. He is more conerned about our souls and hearts than about our bodies and circumstances.. If suffering is the only way to get through to us, in His love he will use it.. When you train pysically you often put your body through pain and suffering yourself, but for the greater purpose of having a stronger body.. God refines and disciplines those he loves, even with stuff that may seem unfair... but in the context of His grace, His love, his perfect plans and purposes for us and others, and the fact that He is always near, is our refuge, is our hope and future - its ok.. Howevherer as always there are dangers, dangers that we just accept things, that might in fact be our downfall and not part of God's will.. you don't just have cancer and say "Lord this must be your will and accept it rather than accepting Christ's healing", nor do you say "the devil is afflicting me, etc etc etc" but rather
"Lord i believe in your healing power, and i will accept it in faith, Lord help me to keep focused on you in This time, see things from your perspective, Lord let this affliction, and its healing, be a testimony of you in my life, may you be reflected in my life more and more, whether with this affliction or not, and may through my suffering, or through an amazing deliverance, your glory would be made manifest, and not only would i know you more, but others would also"

you never know different things..
that 6 month severe sickness may have saved you from a carcrash or something..
a broken leg may have stopped you going to a seemingly innocent party where you may have gotten tempted and started a long road of sexual immorality, and the resulting slavery..

those are superficial things however, but God's plan is bigger than our comfort.. and our spiritual wellbeing is more important than our cicrumstances, though on the other hand He does care about us, in great detail, cares for our pains, our hungers, our desires, bottles up our tears, knows the amount of hairs on our head..

I know so many stories of christians in suffering who have been used by God and in oppertunities that wouldn't have happened otherwise..
such as people in hospital with sickness, who in that time, got closer to God and evagelised the sick in the hospital , the nurses and doctors, with great fruit... same with people in prison...

much of the spread of the gospel is the same way.. true christians exciled from the roman empire for heresy went with great suffering against their will, but part of God's plan.. to get the gospel to the barbarians.. also the suffering of christian europe to the vikings, but the fruit was amazing..
all for the name and glory of God..

lets take the captivity in babylon.. it was the devout ones who got taken away mostly... and other than for punishment for israels sins, it was for the glory of God.. as a result, it enabled people like daniel to be an ambassador of the living God to two world empires, in which cases the leaders of those empires, declared to their whole empire that hte Lord is the true God, creator of the universe.. though with much suffering of His servants.. beyond that what was just common to man, and often without a clear connection of "suffering for the cause"

in 2 cor 12... we have the story of the thorn in the flesh of paul... some suffering GIVEN by God... here is the message version since you like it so much :P

Because of the extraveance of those revalations, and so i wouldn't get a big head, i was given the gift of a handicap to keep me in constant touch with my limitations. .Satan's angel did his best to get me down; what he in fact did was push me to my knees. No danger then of walking around high and mightly! At first i didn't think of it as a gift, and begged God to remove it. Three times i did that, and then he told me,
"My grace is enough, it's all you need. My strength comes into its own in your weakness"

Once i heard that, i was glad to let it happen. I quit focusing on the handicap and began appreciating the gift. It was was a case of Christ's strenght moving in on my weakness.

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

The word 'temptation' is often used in the NT where it clearly means a trial. As soon as we start talking about God's discipline to mean He makes bad things happen to us for our own good, as well as the whole problem with the house being divided against itself, you have the situation where a Christian who is having some difficulty is judged as being unfaithful in some way.

1 Cor 10:13 ( sorry, I thought Jesus said it, and it was Paul )

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

And from the Amplified

13For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not [1] adjusted and [2] adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to [3] a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.

Actually, I wanted to post on the issue of being "abrupt". Yes, I know some of us don't have time to write a "proper" post, or that we're not the most eloquent with words, but I think we all need to show a little restraint before we go bashing other people's beliefs.

God doesn't tell everyone the exact same thing. There are some universal truths that apply to all of us of course, but it's God who we have to hear from to live out our everyday lives. Not everyone goes through the same experiences, and not everyone is as well-versed in the Bible or maybe even intelligent enough to figure out what some of the Bible means (that's not a jab at anybody, just a statement that could apply anywhere).

The point I'm trying to make is, the reason why this forum may be "dead" (as meanman/Christian would suggest) might be because of the abruptness or the flame wars that ensue because of the abruptness. Instead of trying to tear other people's belief system apart, if you really believe that you're in the right and they're in the wrong, then pray for them, and do as the Bible says and take these people aside PRIVATELY and correct them, or at least give explanation for why you think they're wrong. It's only natural for people to defend what they believe if you don't give them enough time to think about things. And believe me, on the Internet, everything is rushed...for the most part, not much thought is given to a post or an e-mail before it is sent out (flame mail).

So I would suggest reading 1 Corinthians 13 before erupting into another flame war. Be patient with people who don't believe the way you do, and if there's an issue that isn't really important (like whether Adam and Eve were really the first people, or that angels can have sex or whatever), then let people think what they wanna think. It's okay to have in-depth discussions, but do it in love, and do it with the intent to truly help your brothers (and sisters) grow in the knowledge of the things of God.

This sermon provided by:

------------------
...

[This message has been edited by SaintA2J (edited April 17, 2007).]

quote:

---

I thought you didn't believe that God has a plan for the nations ? :0)

---

where did you get that from?
probably in one of my previous posts i might have negated myself by accident accidently put a NOT or something in, as i do sometimes by accident
(same principle for most of my bugs in programming) most bugs are either a one bug ( array from 0 or 1 , -1 here or something)
or
return false ; else return true (or is it the other way in this case)

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

---

I thought you'd taken a shot at BI which is essentially the claim that God both keeps His Word and has a plan for the nations...

---

yeah i had taken some shots at BI so to speak.. the above description sounds nice, and i would aggree that is a good thing, but with BI, have you heard the phrase "the devil is in the detail", we'll lets massage that phrase to BI a little..

How i see history with this issue of God having a plan for the nations..

post flood
1) the world was one culture , one race, they denied God's command to cover the earth and multiply, and in their own arrangance made a tower to "heaven"... they were united in their evil, and God still loved them and had a plan for redemption... and used the divide and conquer technique
2) thus he "confused the languages" and created many different cultures..
3) he choose abraham.. the first jew to be a nation, set aside as holy , His choosing of one people wasn't to make those people superior, but part of his perfect plan of redemption, He choose one people to be his priests, his ambassadors, He choose to bless them and through them, they would be a blessing to the nations.. (worked out in many many ways, the most important through Christ)
4) the great commission in matt 28, is for the good news to be preached to all ethnic groups, and disciples will be made of all peoples (and after that the end will come..

5) the Lord will have many in heaven, a harvest of the cultures and races at the wedding feast from all cultures

(that was very very quite and rough)
anyway my point is it doesn't make an anglo-saxon (or danish etc etc) an israelite any more than say a nigerian christian is... which in the spiritual sense all us christians are spiritual heirs of abraham through Christ. We have recieved the blessing of abraham through Christ, and are to be a blessing to the nations..

Sure GOd has a plan for israel, for england, america, vanuatu etc etc just as he has for me and you... but that doesn't make a brit an israelite, nor does it make me a chinaman...

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

I just deny that british or americans etc. are israelites (unless they are actually physical decendants of abraham), which history and genetics prove otherwise (though of course there are ones with some mixed blood in them)...

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz