General Discussions

Newbie is Confused – Wacko4X

Wacko4X

Member

Posts: 92
From: Bellvue, WA, USA
Registered: 08-21-2002
Hello! I recently joined this website (which I heard about from a friend) and am wondering what should I do?? okay that question was a little too broad but here let me explain. I am 15 years old and the only programming stuff that I have come in touch with is Qbasic and HTML. I am not "fluent" in either of these languages and am just sorta starting out in the programming world. This coming semester at school I will be taking Java and hopefully learning quite a bit from it. I have heard so much about C++ being a very popular language to program with and am wondering if I should jump into that. Truthfully I dislike HTML and would rather do some sort of game-oriented programming language. Now, Do you think that C++ would be somthing good for me to start out in? and if so does it cost anything to get or use. Any other advice would be helpful
In Him,
Wacko4X

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Hebrews 12:28-29 NIV
"Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverance and awe, for our 'God is a consuming fire.'"

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
Welcome to the boards, wacko! (It just doesn't sound right saying that heheh)

If game stuff is what you want to do then go for C++. You can get a free compiler (gcc) and other tools for free as well. A good tool to get your hands on would be MS VC++ 6.0 (you can get the introductory edition fairly cheap; I got one as part of a Game Development Kit package for somewhere around 50 USD).
There are plenty of people here who know C++ and can provide you with links galore for C++ tutorials and tools.

GCC: http://gcc.gnu.org/

Blessings,
Matt

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

gingerellies

Member

Posts: 50
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: 05-28-2002
Hey! and welcome to CCN I just graduated from game school and the main language they focused on was C++. They said if you can learn C++, you can learn all the rest of it. SO far in my experience in the industry this has been true. I would recommend C++ if you are interested in making games. A great book to use for learning is C++ Primer Plus. I have read it cover to cover and I reference it quite a bit, it is very informative and not a difficult read. I am not a big reader, but I really enjoyed that book. Good luck with your journey into games and we are here if you have questions!

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God bless and keep you!
-Ginger

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
Let me add my voice to the cacophany of support for C++ as a programming language. You can get it for free, the web is bursting with help, and it's more powerful than any other viable option you may have.

Having said that, power comes at a cost, and I don't think HTML ( which is not a language ), or QBasic will have prepared you for C++. Get some good books, join some good websites ( with all due respect to this one, it's kind of dead here, join something like www.codeproject.com, or www.codeguru.com ) and be prepared for a steep learning curve.

rowanseymour

Member

Posts: 284
From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Registered: 02-10-2001
quote:
Originally posted by meanmaninoz:
with all due respect to this one, it's kind of dead here

Don't mind him. If you have any questions about C++ fire away. There are quite a few of us who code in that language and we'll be glad to help you. God Bless.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
What do you mean, 'don't mind him' ? You're claiming that enough people out of the 6-10 that post here regularly are SO brilliant at C++ that they can replace the combined knowledge of the HUNDREDS of people posting to the two sites I mentioned ? I think I said what I wanted to politely, and I think it's beyond dispute. This is a quiet little corner of the web, containing people who will no doubt try to help ( I sure would if a C++ question got asked here ), but not enough people to represent the sort of resource that real programming sites can offer.

Imsold4christ

Member

Posts: 305
From: Gresham, OR, US
Registered: 01-20-2001
Hey Wacko4x, I know you....

Can I use your real name, do you mind? Sure took you a while to brave a post on here didn't it? I'm afraid I'm not as active on these boards as I used to be.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

Wacko4X

Member

Posts: 92
From: Bellvue, WA, USA
Registered: 08-21-2002
Thanks a lot you guys..... Also what do you think of the For Dummies Series?? Thats for the main part where I learn a lot of my computer knowledge and they have a C++ for Dummies which I think comes with a CD for the program so I could jump right in..... but I guess it probley would be best to just buy the whole program myself

Gigerellies: I will definatly look into Primer Plus

Meanmaninoz: I will also look into those websites just not for a while and are they even christian??? 'cause if not and i ask them a question about where I should get C++ they might give me some sorta site where all the stuff is hacked and everything and I dont care for much illegal stuff on my computer (last year I deleted it all and saved like 7 GB!!)

Imsold4christ: Sure Caleb I guess you can use my real name if you want to But I am still curios How do you do those cross thingys by your name??

Only for Him,
Wacko4X

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Hebrews 12:28-29 NIV
"Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverance and awe, for our 'God is a consuming fire.'"

Imsold4christ

Member

Posts: 305
From: Gresham, OR, US
Registered: 01-20-2001
Hold on Alt, and press 0-1-3-4 in succession on the numeric keypad, then release Alt. † See? But make sure Num Lock is turned on, otherwise it won't work.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

Crptc_Prgrmr

Member

Posts: 169
From:
Registered: 02-05-2002
Welcome Wacko4X! This site is not as active as some, I think that's kinda good, getting 50 responses to a simple question is not always helpful I did a bit of qbasic programming before advancing. Go for C++, it is the best, period. I'd suggest starting dead simple with console programming (dos-like text) and a book like "C++ How To Program" by Deitel & Deitel. Once you understand the basics of the language you can get a book specifically on game programming and be off and running...

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

I will also look into those websites just not for a while and are they even christian??? 'cause if not and i ask them a question about where I should get C++ they might give me some sorta site where all the stuff is hacked and everything and I dont care for much illegal stuff on my computer (last year I deleted it all and saved like 7 GB!!)

No, none of those sites are Christian. I'm not sure what leads you to believe that this automatically means that the contents of their sites are illegal. Apart from the whole copyright law thing, the fact is that Christians do not have a monopoly on being nice people, or obeying the law. They are in fact programming sites that make this one look like a waste of time, in terms of the amount of help available and the speed with which you will get it. This site is good to have a chat with other people who share your beliefs, but it is not a very good programming site, especially for c++. Blitz is kind of a non-language that is good for non-programmers to write games, and this site is probably very good if that is what you want to do ( and there is no shame in wanting to create games for fun without having to learn a real language ).

There are a handful of people here, me included, who will be happy to help you if you have C++ programming questions. But you'll find that you'll get much better help if you look at the sites I recommended.

gingerellies

Member

Posts: 50
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: 05-28-2002
I have always been able to get the help I needed here, and I am quite sure you will be able to as well. If the nice people here do not know, we will do our best to point you in the right direction. A really good place to look for info is www.gametutorials.com. Hope this helps and good luck!

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God bless and keep you!
-Ginger

Crptc_Prgrmr

Member

Posts: 169
From:
Registered: 02-05-2002
BTW, HTML (Hyper-Text-Markup-Language) is in fact a language. It is not an imperative language with variables and control structures, or a logic based language, so it really isn't a programming language (probably what the original post meant). I took a course on programming languages a while ago and HTML recently so these things are still fresh on the brain...

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

kturner
Junior Member

Posts: 2
From:
Registered: 08-28-2002
I'm going to go against the grain here. Yes, I do think C++ is king, but lets be honest about what C++ is: an extension of C.

1. Stick with ANSI C.

Learn it, love it, and then apply it to C++. Everything you learn in C will be good for C++. C++ offers more organizational elements (objects) on top of C and the irony is that as a beginner, most of this stuff is overkill. C++ books/tutorials/websites tend to want to focus on objects because that is the advantage of C++ but in the end they cheat you out of a solid understanding of C. Many games are written entirely in C. The secular game, Quake 2, for example, is entirely C. The biblical thing to do is manage the smaller issues first and then when you are mature, more will be given to you. Maybe after learning C you will find you enjoy programming and the Lord can use your talent by learning C++.

2. Program console applications first.

Echoing a previous post, start with console games. C++ is VERY useful for GUIs (Graphical User Interfaces), or any library that is written in C++, but these libraries are not necessary for beginners. I've been coding for over a decade and I still find myself beginning projects at the console level before moving on to the graphics, etc. Debugging and learning code is just so much easier at the console level.

3. Hang out with Linux people.

Just a shameless plug for Linux. However, if you want a ton of free (legally free) programming tools at your fingertips, and you are looking for something to replace the agony you would have had learning C++, try Linux. Huge community of developers and all the free tools you could ask for - if you can just figure out how the OS works! I suggest this, but Linux isn't for everyone. You can learn to program wonderfully on a Windows /Macintosh machine too. Just don't flame we with personal emails becuase I suggested Linux. Ok?

In Him,
Kevin
<><

Crptc_Prgrmr

Member

Posts: 169
From:
Registered: 02-05-2002
You're right kturner, C++ is still an extension of C. Most beginner books will not get into C++ specific features much if at all. I didn't even get into objects and classes until much more recently. I went through examining some of the differences between C and C++ in that same programming languages course, most of the differences are simply to give it object-oriented capability, a few are added to make it safer (cross-checking externally defined variables for instance).

So to be more specific, learn structured programming with its functions and scopes first, later you can get into object-oriented programming and C++ specifics.

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

1. Stick with ANSI C.

Learn it, love it, and then apply it to C++. Everything you learn in C will be good for C++. C++ offers more organizational elements (objects) on top of C and the irony is that as a beginner, most of this stuff is overkill.


ARGH !!!!!!!

This is the worst advice in the world. Bjarne Stroustrup, the creator of C++ agrees with me here. C is UGLY, and hard to use. For example, would you rather use C style strings, or std::string ? Why is it overkill to have an object that encapsulates a string and takes care of memory for you ? I've seen plenty of awful C++ code, and a lot of it is bad because it uses outdated, clunky C code when C++ offers easier, safer and more robust alternatives.

C++ has gone a LONG way from being C with classes. In fact they are divergent with C99, there are plenty of things a modern C book will tell you which simply are not C++.

quote:

2. Program console applications first.

Agreed totally.

quote:

3. Hang out with Linux people.

Just a shameless plug for Linux. However, if you want a ton of free (legally free) programming tools at your fingertips, and you are looking for something to replace the agony you would have had learning C++, try Linux. Huge community of developers and all the free tools you could ask for - if you can just figure out how the OS works! I suggest this, but Linux isn't for everyone. You can learn to program wonderfully on a Windows /Macintosh machine too. Just don't flame we with personal emails becuase I suggested Linux. Ok?


Plenty of free stuff for Windows as well, and you increase your audience from about 27 people, to millions. ( OK, it's not that bad, but Linux is not a serious choice if you're trying to reach the masses ).

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

I went through examining some of the differences between C and C++ in that same programming languages course, most of the differences are simply to give it object-oriented capability, a few are added to make it safer (cross-checking externally defined variables for instance).

Not quite true. Yes, C++ adds classes and therefore OO, and is big on type safety. It also adds things like the STL, iostreams, namespaces, RTTI, etc. There is a lot more to it, and it is a shame that most C++ books teach C with classes instead of C++.

Crptc_Prgrmr

Member

Posts: 169
From:
Registered: 02-05-2002
I suppose that depends on what you consider part of the language. iostream is a set of code written in the language, as is std::string, which I would not consider part of the language itself. The whole point is that you can get into the more sophisticated C++ stuff after getting a firm handle on C/C++ syntax and operation.

Linux still remains the programmer's (and some graphic artists) OS, people outside of our field just aren't interested in it just yet (at least gamers, and that could change). Still, if you want to learn it go ahead
BTW, speaking of windows things that are free, you can get the Borland C++ compiler at: http://www.inprise.com/bcppbuilder/freecompiler/cppc55steps.html

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

Wacko4X

Member

Posts: 92
From: Bellvue, WA, USA
Registered: 08-21-2002
Crptc_Prgrmr you were talking about the borland compiler that i can get for free... but i cant program with it right?? it only allows me to convert C++ to machine language right?? (an executable program) and right now i think im doing alright i have C++ for dummies and it comes with a CD that has the language,examples, compilers everything... so i think ill stick with that for now... anyone ever been to Wheaton college or is currently going there??

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Hebrews 12:28-29 NIV
"Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverance and awe, for our 'God is a consuming fire.'"

kturner
Junior Member

Posts: 2
From:
Registered: 08-28-2002
Wow, meanmaninoz, you sure know how to welcome someone to this site on their first post! You misunderstood me but I'll let it slide this time.

Wheaton college in Illinois? Sorry, don't know anything about it. Are you thinking about attending? I'm down here in Texas, very near Texas A&M University. Coincidentally, ole Bjarne is moving here in a few months to do some teaching. Might be nice, but I have to admit I live here for the Christian community more than the academic.

Wacko4X: Don't stress (not that you sound like you are) too much about finding the perfect compiler or language. In the end, find something that fits you and learn it well. Try not to skip around too much in the beginning because the real lessons of how to program only begin after you have learned the basic syntax of a language and the basic uses of compilers and linkers. Whether you go with C,C++,Java or Borland,Dummies you are still very much in the mainstream of programming and should be fine despite all of our comments about doom and gloom!

Standing firm,
Kevin

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

I suppose that depends on what you consider part of the language. iostream is a set of code written in the language, as is std::string, which I would not consider part of the language itself. The whole point is that you can get into the more sophisticated C++ stuff after getting a firm handle on C/C++ syntax and operation.

From where I stand, the language is defined by the C++ standard, X3J16, which includes both iostreams and the STL.

Your point is somewhat correct, but as Bjarne demostrates on his own webpage, C syntax is harder, more complex, unsafe and generally ugly compared to C++. Therefore it is wrong to teach people bad habits and bad coding, because they will stick with them forever. The myth persists I think because of educators who learned C first and never really learned C++.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

but i cant program with it right?? it only allows me to convert C++ to machine language right?? (an executable program)

That is what a compiler does. There are numerous free compilers around, what they usually lack is facilities such as debugging, a fancy way to edit GUI components, etc.

Crptc_Prgrmr

Member

Posts: 169
From:
Registered: 02-05-2002
meanmaninoz, speaking of ugly, have you seen Pascal?

Wacko4X, if you have a compiler/IDE that works for you, use it

kturner, is your area really good Christian-wise? I used to live near Dallas and the area I live now seems a bit bleak. Lot's of people seem to pick on the Lone-Star State (people from our state seem to get extra pushy on the road when they see that license plate, kinda bazarre). Even a bit of the Christians here seem to have something against that entire state, but most have never even been there and don't realize how much of a Bible-Belt it still remains.

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

rowanseymour

Member

Posts: 284
From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Registered: 02-10-2001
As much as I dislike JAVA, I still think its the best language for beginners. The Sun JDK is totally free and there are loads of good learning resources for the language because most universities now use it as a first language for students.

Learning JAVA makes moving to object orientated C++ quite easy, which is where you want to end up

(PS. what's wrong with CString )

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene