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Read this Christians – InsanePoet

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
Do you realize our potential. We need to pool our resources and we can make high quality games.

What I was thinking is that the coders work in a GOOD engine that can be used for free.
We could make an archive of royality free soundtrack, graphics, sound fx etc.
We need to pull it together and compete with the secular market with SUPERIOR Christian games.

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Victory Infinitum

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
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[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 25, 2002).]

Revelator

Member

Posts: 226
From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: 03-22-2001
Sounds good.

Maybe making a "not so public" board would work, or maybe a website that is password protected, and every month the members on the website can vote people in who are serious about contributing to the website.

You can have pages for:
story lines
background music
sounds
3d objects
AI routines and coding.

They don't have to work all on the same project, but if they are working all with the same engine, then all the game resources and code ideas can be shared.

But where do you find a good free or very low cost engine that would do the job???

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

[This message has been edited by Revelator (edited August 09, 2002).]

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
Ah yes, our universal idea of a united group of Christians working hard to bring a quality game to the masses. We all know this has been discussed before several times on the boards, but for some reason it never comes together. The conversation seems to split with a 'join my game development / no join my game development / look at my game' and nothing seems to get done.

I strongly believe that there shouldn't be no 'division' between Christian companies, no 'compition', no 'my game is better than your game', no 'slaughter house market'. United in prayer, encouragement and lending hand I believe that we could achieve a very well done, well polished game.

The game would have to be more multi-genre-ish, very open-minded, very non-legalistic, very encouraging, very relational building, and light on the Biblical aspects of it (not comprimising, but not also not too strong that it would turn gamers away).

I would love to help out this endevour, because I believe that when united together through God that nothing can stand against us and we can rock the world and kick butt in the name of Jesus. The thing is to really look at the aspect of 'do we think that our personal projects are too important for this? Can we incorperate all of the game ideas into one project without making it too large and impossible to build with a small team? Are we willing enough to set our projects aside if we feel God telling us to do this?' The idea has come up way more than once so I believe that God is telling us to come together and to stop throwing stones at each other. There is so many mixed views about so many things about what a Christian game is, or what it 'should be' that nothing ends up getting done. Little quarls often break out and people leave over the stupidest little things just because 'they' think that it's wrong. We need to we united with our God, as one, as the Body and to work together in this. Otherwise it's never going to happen.

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http://www.twoguyssoftware.com

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
I probably won't be able to help much; school starts soon. If you do manage to get something rolling, however, I'll stop by every once in a while.

I know C/C++, Java, a little Visual Basic.

quote:
They don't have to work all on the same project, but if they are working all with the same engine, then all the game resources and code ideas can be shared.

But where do you find a good free or very low cost engine that would do the job???


Hmm. Many possibilities exist. The Open Source movement has left a LOT of free stuff in its wake.

Some older games have open source, but they're outdated technology.
Some games can be modded.
You can roll your own engine.
C/C+ and Java are both available for no cost - GCC for C/C++, and Java is available at no cost from Sun Microsystems.
OpenGL is available for both C/C++ and Java (Java3D or gl4java).
There's also a 3D engine called "Crystal Space" available.
http://crystal.sourceforge.net/

CVS can help the sharing of code and resources.

Depends on what you're looking for.

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
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[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

SaintA2J
Member

Posts: 35
From:
Registered: 05-27-2002
We actually talked about this topic at the Christian Game Developer's Conference, but I don't think we ever came to any conclusions. For the time being, I think we're just trying to build a community of developers and hopefully share ideas and possibly code, art, or even services to each other.

A good example of a large group of people working together for one game is Remnant Entertainment. It's a group of about thirty people who have been dedicating their free time to one game for about 2 1/2 years now. The reason I think they've worked so well together is because there's actually a "command structure" (for lack of a better term). And I think that's what has to be remembered when you talk about a large "community project".

I'm actually all for the "open source" game engine idea. Of course, that would also require some kind of structure to it as well, but anyone who wants to add to the engine could submit their work and have it reviewed by a person or group of people before it is added.

If you really want to start a community project, I think the best way to start is to just brainstorm. Come up with an idea that most everybody who wants to be a part of the project can agree on and can get behind, and then just run with it. You'll have to take into account that most of these people have other jobs to tend to, but any free time would be dedicated to the project.

I think Mack said it best when he described the "my idea is better than your idea" mentality, and I think that's the only thing that stops any project from getting off the ground. There's also the fact that some believe in their own projects so much that they don't want to let go of them, and that's fine too. You have to make it clear to everyone involved that it's a group effort. If you want, you can go to the CGDC website and e-mail Tim Emmerich about the little community that we developed from the conference.


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[This message has been edited by SaintA2J (edited April 16, 2007).]

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
wow, I'm really glad that generated a conversation. Hopefully I will generate more.

Yes we need a more private message board.

I beleive that we should start by dividing different people according to their talents and skills.

I was think that a few of us (who deem ourselves creative) to be idea men. They can design the game/ write story.

This need to happen. We need to make a stronger influence on the world.
I would gladly cease work (temporarly) on my project and work for the join projects.

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Victory Infinitum

lostreflections

Member

Posts: 131
From:
Registered: 05-29-2002
I have 12 models that I am willing to donate. They are all animals. I offered them to the blitzers, but there was no interest. These were made for a game that was never finished.

On another note:

I have three different commercial grade 3D engines. I am currently trying to sell these (allowable under US law) to some small startup companies. Not sure if any here would be interested. I already have several interested, but nothing 100% final yet. I am pricing these VERY affordable for a startup company.

These are 100% VC++ 6 compatible (never tried them with other variants). There are NOT toys like Blitz, DB, etc. These are really expensive engines and they have been used for many commercial games.

1. Twilight 3D. A little dated, but still a VERY strong 3D engine. Fully supports LWO models including animation. This is still being sold, although they now have another product out. It includes SDKs, manuals, and some add ons. I am selling this one for $1,200

2. Shadow Realms 3D. This is a little dated, but a very good engine. Still being sold AFAIK. Fully supports MD2 models. I am selling this one for $900

3. Legus 3D. This is no longer in production. The company turned out an AWESOME 3D engine, then later tried to make it a web based engine and had financial trouble and folded. This is the best of the bunch and was originally $4,000. I am selling it for $2,000

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Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
Crystal Space is LGPL, so it shouldn't force you to GPL whatever you include it in. You'll have to look at the LGPL carefully to see what you can/can't do with it, however. GNU based licenses tend to discourage proprietary software.

You should be able to use any of the GNU compilers and still be able to put whatever license you want on your program; the GPL does not cover the output of any program, just the program itself. The same goes for CVS.
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLOutput

I recommend we use a programming language that's available for almost nothing or no cost; students and hobbyist programmers won't neccessarily have a lot of money to spend.

BlazeQ

Member

Posts: 260
From: USA
Registered: 05-11-2002
I agree as well. Something should be done. A private board and filtering members would be good.

First off I think a leader or joint leadership is needed.

I ran across this engine a while back: http://www.3drad.com
I'm not sure exactly how good it is, but it's very low-priced. And I'm pretty sure you all know about Genesis3d. What about the Quake 2 engine? This stuff is probably all too old for what you're thinking of, but I thought I'd share it.

Anyway, pray about it,
BlazeQ

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I'm out of my mind... and into the mind of Christ -G.S. Megaphone

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
quote:
And I'm pretty sure you all know about Genesis3d.

Now we all do .

They all look good, BTW.

SaintA2J
Member

Posts: 35
From:
Registered: 05-27-2002
The Torque engine is really nice. Go to Garage Games and check it out. It's just $100 for the full license to the engine (it may be more if you want to try to publish it), but the online community and the engine itself are excellent. The only problem is that the requirements for the engine are VERY steep since it's the same engine used to power Tribes 2. However, many of my classmates used to engine for their projects and they came out with some excellent stuff and good things to say about the engine.

If any of you decide to create your own 3d engine, then I'd be happy to donate the code from the engine I'm working on now. I can't release the source right now, but in the near future I'll be able to donate it. I've got a development log and some screenshots here. The engine uses DirectX 8.1 in all its glory (or lack thereof, depending on your viewpoint).


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[This message has been edited by SaintA2J (edited April 16, 2007).]

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
coming from a background of making the whole program yourself, making your own sound lib, 3d engine etc.. i have however come around that to make an egnine is a great undertaking, and that being effective christian game makers , rather than generic 3d engine makers lends to using others engines and focusing on pushing that engine to the limit and putting cutting edge creativity with inspired content.. but that is just my opinion
if GOd is leading people, and placing vision in people to create an engine , then let not my opinion stand in the way..

what i do suggest... is to create such a more private site (i myself would be happy to set up it on Godcentric) and start at the first base... pray together, pray regulary, ask God to lead the way..

Sometimes God just gives ideas and lets us use our God given creativity to fill in the details, but othertimes He needs to be involved strategically in every aspect.. I mean look at how details He told moses to do this or that.. and at the time those minscule details might seem frivilous and with no meaning, and actually the meaning didn't make much sense till thousnads of years later when Jesus fufilled those details..

SO i believe such an activity has to do more with God than with us..
there are so many God ministries and ideas out there to be involved in, But the questionm is What does God want yoiu and me to be involved in , in this season of Life... there are generic issues of course for us to follow, we aren't to put our lives on hold while we find out what GOd has called us to do, actually we are to be Real christians , living Christ in our everyday lives dynamically always

but i follow a scripture

Unless the Lord Builds the House, the Laborer's Labour in Vain..

i donm't want to labour in vain.. actually one things i need to bring my group - GOdcentric back to , is prayer...

so start up a group, a place to congregate, where ideas can be shared, vision imparted, word done collaboratively as a team..
but i place where prayer will be the forefront, where God Will will be more impoirtant than opinions, than human ambitions, and a place where we will wait upon GOd....

how does that sound to you,.

Mack, i like what you had to say

Karl
b.t.w not all has to be private.. we are to be lights in the darkness, a city on the hill, contageous christianity needs to be visible to be contageous , so certian forums here, that have the understanding to be ONLY for edification , and for this purpose will be good, because it will inspire bystanders etc etc...

I have a vision for dynamic powerful christian media which on one front is an amazing revolutionary, Jesus filled , evagelical content that harvests in those ripe masses , and on the other hand utterly powerfully discipleship based, that doesn't just makes believers of all men, but disciples of all men..
and i believe many of you here may be a part of that vision in due time... We are pregnant with vision, and Only bny submitting that vision to Goid will we have a living breathing baby, rather than a stillborn conceived out of huyman ambition and ideas..

BUt GOd is in this, and His will Will be done..

amen..

i think i need to add part of this post to Godcentrics manifesto

http://www.godcentric.com/faith.asp?article=1

hey does anybodyu have onther word for manifesto that sounds more christian, but relevant to secular people, and less political, communist etc etc?

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

BlazeQ

Member

Posts: 260
From: USA
Registered: 05-11-2002
You could use "Statement" or "Mission".

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I'm out of my mind... and into the mind of Christ -G.S. Megaphone

lostreflections

Member

Posts: 131
From:
Registered: 05-29-2002
>>The Torque engine is really nice. Go to Garage Games and check it out. It's just $100 for the full license to the engine (it may be more if you want to try to publish it)<<

You REALLY need to read the complete licensing agreement of that engine. There is no way anybody would ever agree to the many stipulations in that.

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Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

[This message has been edited by lostreflections (edited August 11, 2002).]

SaintA2J
Member

Posts: 35
From:
Registered: 05-27-2002
I wasn't sure, but I figured there was some kind of catch to using the Torque engine for commercial projects. It was nice for school projects though. In any case, I wanted to mention it because two guys from Garage Games were actually at the Christian Game Developer's Conference so I thought I'd give them some props!

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[This message has been edited by SaintA2J (edited April 16, 2007).]

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
Maybe we need to start a database or something that simply contains the list of everyone who'd be willing to participate, what their skills are, what tools/libs/etc they own, how much time they can commit too, etc. That way, we can see what bases are covered, and who want's to work in what capacity.

I am a professional C/C++ programmer, and have been programming for a real-life pay cheque (or "paycheck" for you American's ) for about 10 years. I also program C/C++ in my spare time, and have played with graphics programming since I was first interested in computers (eons ago). I'd be interested in helping out. I don't really care what type of project you guys finally decide on, but if you want a profession grunt coder who can churn out quality work, I'll probably be interested.

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Veritech

Member

Posts: 208
From: Lockport, NY
Registered: 01-20-2001
YAY, love the ideas ^_^

*Initialize happy dance routine*

I'm quite interested in donating game ideas, concepts, and designs. I am good at making "game systems" such as skill trees, or hiarchy of items, or jobs... i'm fond of Organization of various things. I would love to just throw my ideas around, and i'm not offended if you dont like them, or reject them. My main genre is RPG, but i also like strategy, and other catagorys. i can make ideas for pretty much any genre tho, given a day or 2 of thought. I am definitly not trying to boast, just trying to say how i can be used, what i'm good at. I also know basic data structuring, since i took some computer language classes in colege, but my knowlege in that respect is still quite limited.

An idea: why not list a few projects, in various genres, and work on them? make or buy a basic engine that can run different types of games, them make the actual platforms seperatly for each game. I sugest an RPG, a 1st person shooter, and perhaps some type of simple project, so we can have our name out there, an intro project if you will.

Add to the list of boards Game Systems. it dosn't fit into any of those 5 other catagorys (maybe storyline a little), and it is vital to the game. i mean even the best story, and best graphics, thats too hard to control, or not fun to do is a waste. Game systems are quite important ^_^ Dont follow? i'll give an example of game systems if anyone requires one.

Veritech AKA John Stimson

PS is it possible to make such private boards right here on CCN? other then the databases, and ftps and all that. Also, we all need to get on the same chat system. I use MSN messenger, my email/name on there is Veri_the_great@hotmail.com

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
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[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

BKewl

Member

Posts: 144
From: St. Charles, MO, USA
Registered: 07-10-2002
This project sounds great. I'd be happy to lend programming (C/C++) and/or some modeling/animating skills into the mix. I've got Lightwave 3D v7.5 for use for the graphics end.
Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Heya,

I'd be happy to setup an area of this board for this. Plus I wrote a project tracking system that may be just what you need. It's by no means an all-encompassing system, but it's pretty useful and has gotten decent reviews from those using it.

Let me know if this is something that you guys would need.

-Krylar

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Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Hey!

Decided to just do it anyway.

There is now a section called "Collective Works" in the special areas. Everyone CURRENTLY in this topic should have access. I'm not going to be able to run this area completely, so I'll need to work with one of you to control the access and such of folks.

There is also a Project tracking system which you should see at the bottom of the topics pages. It's not brain surgery, but it'll take a little getting used to. IF this turns into a real project that is going to go the distance, then I'll work on making it much more in-depth...for now, though, it should be good enough to get things going.

God bless!

-Krylar

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graceworks
Member

Posts: 455
From: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Registered: 03-03-2001
quote:
Originally posted by briant:
Maybe we need to start a database or something that simply contains the list of everyone who'd be willing to participate, what their skills are, what tools/libs/etc they own, how much time they can commit too, etc. That way, we can see what bases are covered, and who want's to work in what capacity.

A take away from the Christian Game Developers Conference was a desire to retain and grow that community. As such, we have started a yahoo group. Within that group is a contact list that lists some of the items mentioned by Brian like skills but doesn't cover availability. Sounds like Krylar will cover a better list, thanks for that!

However, this is an open invite for any folks on Christian Coders that have a strong interest in any aspect of developing Christian Games, Email me at tim@graceworksinteractive.com so I can invite you to join the yahoo group. We'll have our first chat on Aug 22nd.

God bless your efforts,
Tim

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Called by God. The passioned plea of a father. The journey awaits at Jarod Journey's.

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
You've all been talking about other generic engines. I beleive that if our games are going to conquer the secular market, we are going to have to make our own engine, and the best engine out there. The world should be coming to US for our code and design.

It's going to be hard work, but if our games are going to be spectacular, then it is neccessary.

People planning to join this 'collective works' are going to have to be devoted and determined and hard working men of God.

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Victory Infinitum

Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Hiya,

Seems a little silly to me to have all these different places setup for this stuff. I can create an IRC area from here and incorporate an IRC chat mechanism. Then we can password protect the area so only those with a password can get in there.

If you guys want to separate all this out, that's cool...just seems like keeping everything centralized would make more sense.

Lemme know either way so I can set it up (or not)!

-Krylar

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nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
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[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
...

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

wellblack

Junior Member

Posts: 2
From: East Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: 11-19-2002
Well my dream has been to make a GREAT Christian Game. I am a student at Michigan State graduating in Decemeber (looking for a job,in Michigan, so email wellblack@hotmail.com with any advice). You everyone is serious. I WANT IN

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
Hey Wellblack!

First, Welcome to the CCN! Second, what skills do you have that could help with game development? (programming, sound, music, 2d art, 3d art, etc.)

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It's not seeing is believing, it's believing and then seeing.
http://www.twoguyssoftware.com

Dustin Hubbard
Junior Member

Posts: 6
From: El Reno, OK , USA
Registered: 11-13-2002
Not to be a downer on this whole thing or anything but I really feel that going out from having nothing to trying to produce a game on par with current ones with the lack of neccessary materials, funds, and experience is kind of asking for much. Not saying it couldn't be done but it's going to require so very very much from everyone that if you're going to commit you better be 110% dedicated. Like I've proposed before I don't see why we don't make some simpler games that aren't necessarily on par with brand new games but could still sell and get us a name out and experience, and some money to fund larger projects. I'm sure we have the talent etc. for that. And we needn't necessarily have to make christian-themed games, but at the same time make sure they couldn't come back and harm our reputation later. Just something like Mario etc. Just my two cents...

- Dustin Hubbard
www.spookytornado.com

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
Mt 17:20
And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Mt 21:21
And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.

Mk 11:22-23
And Jesus *answered saying to them, "Have faith in God. "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be {granted} him

Lu 17:6
And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and it would obey you.

Ac 3:12
But when Peter saw {this,} he replied to the people, "Men of Israel, why are you amazed at this, or why do you gaze at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk?

Look at David and Goliath, a little boy vrs 9 foot giant. David was putting a lot more on the line then his "reputation", he was putting his life on the line. Did David go to warrior training? No, he just did what the spirit told him to do and he had faith in God.

I truly beleive that God can use us to make games that will overrun the secular market and put to shame anything the world can come out with.
All we have to do is have faith.

I sincerly believe that God will make Infinitum top-notch and compete in the secular market.

Do not rely on the skills and wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

The verses above apply to more then just Christain landscapers.
And I tell you that any man, no matter how skilled be might be, and yet has little faith, will be WORTHLESS to the Christian gaming market.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by Insanepoet (edited November 20, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Insanepoet (edited November 20, 2002).]

Destroyer

Member

Posts: 31
From: Bismarck, ND
Registered: 10-06-2002
Id love to help out with this, I don thave extensive knowlege in most of the languages i know but thats because i learned them in school so i know the bare essentials. but I am in the process of pearl on my own and that look sot be a promising language for me.
wellblack

Junior Member

Posts: 2
From: East Lansing, MI, USA
Registered: 11-19-2002
To answer your question, I am a programmer graduating in decemeber with my Comp Sci degree. I am teaching myself the game programming aspects, but I know some languages (ie Java, C/C++...) therefore I don't know all the answers, willing to learn new things, but I am not new to programming at all. Also, I see no reason to not do a BIG game. We serve a BIG GOD right. Don't limit what God can do because of your faith.
TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
I think the most challenging aspect of this will not be the actual coding (although that will be tough). It will be to present a story line that at once is attractive to the public, does not compromise our faith in any way, and therefore honors God.

One way this might be done could be to present a situation from the perspective of a Christian. You could even start the game out as before they are "saved" by having certain buttons on the interface unlabeled so that the user doesn't understand what they are, but once they get "saved" these unlabeled buttons come into play, receiving labels such as "witness", "confess", "repent", etc.

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Never Forget to Pray! Pray at all times. Pray for prayer. Pray to be able to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying, and really prevailing with the Holy Spirit.

Sort of from Spurgeon.

BKewl

Member

Posts: 144
From: St. Charles, MO, USA
Registered: 07-10-2002
Welcome to the board, TallBill! Wow, another Christian coder from the St. Louis area! I didn't know it's such a hot spot here. We'll have to have the next CGDC here
hihorizons

Junior Member

Posts: 2
From:
Registered: 11-24-2002
Wow, rock on. I'm totally in. I didn't even know ChristianCoders existed until about 5 minutes ago. So give me a break, I'm really excited now.

I've been leading a christian based game for around 6+ months now, it took us a long time due to engine trouble, etc...

Anyhow, I'd be glad to assist with such a project. I've have done a "TON" of web work. I did web design and DBase stuff for around 3 years now.

I'd be glad to provide any web stuff you need. I'm not too much for things like Flash, but I've done a lot of member based systems before. So I'm here if you need me.

I'd be interested in helping out with the rest of the stuff too.

Contact me if you want. I'll be checking back too.

Keep it Real!

Matthew

silicon_chippy

Member

Posts: 208
From: Scotland
Registered: 10-26-2002
If you need any help with the storyline I will help. However, I do not have recent experience of game design.
But, if we want to produce a game we can!!!!!!

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I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all around me seemed insufficient for the day. ABRAHAM LINCOLN

holy_fire
Member

Posts: 40
From: Hamilton, Scotland
Registered: 08-20-2001
hey just to let u guys know i am up for doing some conceptuals for whatever u guys think up.
Would be good if we can pull something together tho in terms of actual game ? ( maybe u guys already have and i've missed it)
let me know when u get some progress

Ian out