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Saint Cheez Member Posts: 85 From: San Diego CA USA Registered: 06-24-2001 |
Hi Revelator, I know that I had read this before about the Gifts. 1Cor 12:1 to chap 14 3 No one who is speaking of Spirit of God say, "YHSVH is cursed" and no one can say, "YHSVH is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. In other words, no one can deny you are apart of the Body, a Christian, or have the Holy Spirit, if you believe and proclaim YHSVH is Lord. There are many gifts but one Spirit. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each man, just as he determines. Here is the list of priorities. Guess which one is last in order? It definitely is not the first. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is part of it. Andin the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of administration, and finally those speaking in different tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Do all have the gift of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts. The answer is that one person can not have all the gifts. Neither can a person claim one gift over all the rest. Neither does it say that only one gift is a condition to admission. What is the greater gift of God? Love. "And now I will show you the most excellent way." 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not LOVE, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging symbal. By whose authority are these words made void and meaningless? However, there is one part concerning the gift of speaking in tongues: Apparently, there must have been disputes over the gifts. Here he is arguing why speaking in tongues should not be more important than the other gifts. Apparently some must have felt it was. 14:12 So it is with you, since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. Thats why I said please continue as you are doing. You are building up the church. "Edifice" is a large imposing building. "Edify" yourself means to "build" yourself up. Thus, 14:18 This problem was discussed and argued 2,000 years ago. So, be happy and continue as before. I am only sorry tht I did not remember these verses days ago. Best wishes, St. Cheez [This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 07, 2001).] |
Revelator Member Posts: 226 From: Sydney, NSW, Australia Registered: 03-22-2001 |
I agree. The crux of Christianity is service to others. If a gift is used in a way that does not benefit others, then it is not used in the way intended by God. Thanks for the encouragement. I try to use the gifts God has given me to help others. I still have a long way to go, but God is slowly chipping away at my character so I reflect Jesus' more and more. Revelator! |
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Saint Cheez Member Posts: 85 From: San Diego CA USA Registered: 06-24-2001 |
Hi Revelator, I like what you said. We all learn and grow, at least, hopefully. Just as I hope that I read this all correctly, but to a degree it sounds fairly plain. As I understood it, even the disciples fought and disputed. There even was jealousies for YHSVH's attention. I guess that was the reason before he was crucified to make a new law, love each other, so they would make an effort to get along. The Cor 1 doc sounded somewhat political. Apparently there must have been some disputes and misunderstandings over the Gifts of the Spirit. Those who spoke in tongues sounded like they were trying to dominate others or exclude others in the Body of Christ. The document sounds like a gentle correction to these folks in particular. Well, welcome to modern day organizations and politics.
St. Cheez |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
This is a tragedy, but at least Mr Cheese is discussing the Bible, even if the voices in Mr Revelators head tell him whatever revelation he has should be kept from me.quote: The statement you claim this verse is making is plain dumb. The Bible says even the devils believe. If they believe that Jesus is Lord, how is it you claim they are unable to say so ? If Hilter said Jesus is Lord ( and he did ), does that mean his actions were those of a Christian ? What about the KKK ( a 'christian' organisation' ). What is the context of this verse ? Why is it said here ? Speaking 'by the Spirit' is the same a 'praying in the Spirit' ( chapter 14 ), it is a reference to speaking in tongues. In the beginning of three chapters on the use of this gift in the church, and it's importance relevant to other gifts, he tells us that you can't curse God 'in the Spirit'. To say that the Holy Spirit is not inspiring me if, in English, I say 'I curse God' is just dumb -it's obviously the case and does not need saying. James also reminds us that talk is cheap and it's actions that really show our attitudes. In any case in Acts 8 people were baptised ( which involves a confession of faith ) and did not have the Spirit. So your interpretation of this verse is in trouble.
quote: Talking relevant to use of the gifts in a meeting. This context is clear through the three chapters, including verses in 1 Cor 14 that say we can all speak in tongues, interpret and prophecy. James says we may all pray for wisdom, other verses say we can all ask to be healed and it's pretty clear throughout the Bible all Christians must have faith. If you say you've met lots of people saved apart from the gift of tongues, I'd like to know if a similar number are saved apart from faith ?
quote: The key is 'in the church'. These people were all speaking in tongues at once, Paul is reminding them that in a meeting there are other gifts of more importance in terms of serving the body. Tongues is a sign to unbelievers. Why ? Because believers speak in tongues. Question: why does he exort to desire the 'greater gifts' if God only gives them to some ? Isn't that a recipe for disappointed Christians, and a God who gives with favouritism ?
quote: Love is not even a gift, it is a fruit. Of course it is the prinicple thing, but it is not a dichotomy. Paul does not say he prefers love to tongues, but that tongues be used in love - the two together. 1 Cor 1 tells of Pauls desire they come behind in no gift, and again, if we can't have them all, how many do not have faith ? Wisdom ? Healing ?
quote: Yours aparently, because you try to make them say something they do not. In 1 Cor 14 Paul says 'forbid not tongues' and tells them how to use the gift in the meetings, how using this gift appropriately is a sign of love.
quote: Yes, they did. In a meeting they were all speaking in tongues, no interpretation, no prophecy.
quote: So you claim Paul asks them to seek a gift when in fact you believe they either had it or did not, depending on if they got tongues, interpretation or faith.
quote: You didn't have to think about it, I've been posting these verses for days ( although you skip some of the more pertinent ones, like 14:26 or 28, which says we can all speak in tongues )because they prove my point. The point is as follows: First of all by posting these verses instead of answering me you try to make the Bible contradict itself. It will not, and Acts 8 still shows people with faith who were not saved. Yes, the Apostles regarded their faith in Jesus to tie to their Judaism, in so far as He was their promised messiah. But their message was the Gospel, as it is today. Jesus said He came not to do away with the Law, therefore the Law remains, fulfilled in Him. Those things that were a shadow are now completed in Him. None of this changes the fact of baptised believers being told they do not have the Holy Spirit, and the writer assuming we know how to tell if someone has the Spirit or not. Acts 8 also blows away your interpretation of 1 Cor 12:2. 1 Cor 12-14 is about use of gifts in the church and you cannot use it to maintain only some Christians can speak in tongues without ignoring verses that directly say otherwise in chapter 14, AND telling me some Christians are saved without faith. Ultimately the fact is that I have tried to show yousomething that God is offering you, and your response is to justify yourselves in your current state, which in my mind is pride. I am not Peter and you are not Cornelius, but Cornelius might just as well have said to Peter that he was not Paul or Jesus. Acts 19 asks the question I ask of you - have you recieved the Holy Spirit sine you believed ? Given that the Bible seperates recieving the Holy Spirit from believing, here and in Acts 8, I'd like to know on what basis you believe you have the Holy Spirit ? To be frank I personally do not care if you do or do not, in so far as it has no impact on my life - I don't even know you. But my Father would like you to be saved, and in service to Him I ask this question, I point out what the Bible says in the hope that someone here cares more about God than their religion, more about serving God than believing they have done so because their pastor told them so. I am thankful every day that someone showed similar persistance talking to me, and that I cared enough about following God to be willing to look at the Bible without assuming I was saved by the false doctrines I had followed before. |
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Saint Cheez Member Posts: 85 From: San Diego CA USA Registered: 06-24-2001 |
quote: MeanMan, you are in sore need of help and love for mankind in general. The name "mean" is fitting in your case.
quote: Me thinks you got a demon or at least battling demons. YHSVH said a house divided can not stand. He has already refuted this ploy 2,000 years ago.
quote: The accuser has and will say that people are not Christians or not guided by the Holy Spirit, so that they will lose faith. This is to let them know that they are in fact part of the Body of Christ.
quote: The good news is being freed from sin by believing in Lord YHSVH. This is consistently throughout the new testament and even by YHSVH "If you believe in what I say". James is not YHSVH our savior. You need serious corrections, MeanMan. You refuse to hear the message of these verse. The gift of Love is greater than speaking in tongues. Its your business if you do not wish to listen to these verses. I understand it quite well.
quote: You are talking in circles again, the spirit of foolishness and confusion. YHSVH asks that we believe in him and what he says, and the good news was being freed from sin by believing in Lord YHSVH. First you ask me to read Cor, then you back-track to James to back up your foolish beliefs. James is not YHSVH.
quote: I speak English and am a Christian. Your speaking in tongues does not help me one bit. You need to re-read over and over what Paul says here. God picks and chooses. Thats life. If you do not like it, talk to God about it.
quote: He said that without love, speaking in tongues is nothing. You said love was mamby pamby (whatever that means) then again referred to James. As I said before, MeanMan, your heart is not right with man, and you do need love for your fellow man.
quote: Re-read chap 14.
quote: I have no idea what you are trying to say here. You must be thinking or typing a mile-a-minute trying to recover from Paul's message.
quote: 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak at a time, and someone must interpret. 14:28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. Sounds reasonable to me.
quote: Well, if you agreed with what I said about Judiasm, then you might consider this also. As I understood it, in order to enter the church, a person had to go through the baptist of water (John) and admit that he was a sinner. However, there is still the baptist of fire (YHSVH) which apparently was done through the laying on of hands. From what I can tell, there was a hierarchy in the church, and it appears that the Apostles baptised with fire in order for the person to receive the Holy Spirit. Apparently it was all done in logical order. Even so, you are in no position to judge whether a person has the Holy Spirit or not, a Christian or not. If you have decided to not listen to Cor1, that your business.
quote: YHSVH is Lord. That is faith. If you do not care for the good news, thats your business.
quote: Yup.
quote: Thats your opinion. Thats not stated in Cor1.
quote: Well, I have the gife of interpretation and teaching. Whether you have the gift of interpretation and gift of learning is suspect.
quote: Well, good for you. St. Cheez [This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 08, 2001).] |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a tragedy, but at least Mr Cheese is discussing the Bible, even if the voices in Mr Revelators head tell him whatever revelation he has should be kept from me. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: Well, I guess I am mean. So mean that I'll keep presenting the gospel to people who are rude to me. At least you have the courage to post, I'm still trying to figure out how Revelator justifies his position ( although I know already it's because the Holy Spirit tells him stuff, I'm trying to work out why the Holy Spirit tells him stuff He doesn't tell others, and stuff that goes against the Bible at that ) I'm 32 years old, I've been discussing the Bible on-line for about five years and I'm beyond being 'nice' to people who are rude to me and oppose the Gospel. I'm nice enough to spend my time telling you how you can be saved, I don't have it in me to mince words when people say things that are plain dumb. quote:
quote: No Christian can have a demon, because of the verses you paraphrase, and others. This is an amazing way to avoid discussing with me what the Bible says when I refute your obviously wrong interpretations. quote:
quote: This is pure garbage, but you won't answer where I show this to be so, because I 'have demons'. Your interpretation of this verse is totally out of context, and just plain bizarre. quote:
quote: Even the devils believe, the Good News involves doing what Jesus said. Can I ask you a couple of questions ? 1/ How do you worship in the Spirit ? 2/ How do you worship in truth ? 3/ How do you keep yourself in Gods love ? 4/ How did you know you had the Holy Spirit ( term is synonymous with becoming a Christian ) ?
quote: So you reject the book of James then ? What other books in the Bible don't suit you by their content ?
quote: No, you have NO idea. Love IS greater than speaking in tongues, for tongues will pass away when Jesus returns. But in 1 Cor 13 it also points out that when you are a child, you do the things that children do - we are not yet made perfect, so we have this gift that we need now, and will pass away. Love is greater than tongues, but you cannot say you love God unless you can worship Him in the Spirit ( no man can call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit ). If you cannot speak in tongues, you have not obeyed Him and either do not love Him, or have been ignorant, as Cornelius was. quote:
quote: I speak as a person who can read and believes the Bible is not a riddle. If 1 Cor 12 lists the gifts and says they are optional, then faith is optional. Sorry if it does not suit you, but it is your interpretation of the scriptures, not mine.
quote: I'm not even quoting James here. Acts 8 still shows unsaved believers, and Pauls first question in Acts 19 is still 'have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed'. Have you explained these things, or just pased them off as proof I have a demon ? quote:
quote: It would if you came to one of our meetings and I did it, because it is put in the church as a sign to non-Christians - it's there so you can hear the gift that you will be told is yours for the taking as the outward evidence of your salvation.
quote: God picks and chooses ? Actually 'God is not a respecter of persons', He does not pick and choose what He gives to His people. And you're still talking about a list that includes wisdom, healing, faith and discernment. If only some Christians have discernment ( which is a gift, not of ourselves ), then how can you discern the things I say ?
quote: I said no such thing, I'm beinging to wander if English is your first language. I said that love ISN'T mamby pamby being scared to tell people the truth for fear of offending them. Your rudeness to me has driven this conversation to a hostile level ( I admit I didn't exactly burst onto the group in a polite manner, but I have made an effort to start well where people are polite, and would prefer to continue that way, but you insist on calling me names, and now concluding I am possessed !!! ). Yet I ersist in putting up with this garbage. Believe it or not, I am showing you love. What else could you call putting up with this in order to try and get you to see God's offer of eternal life to you ? quote:
quote:
Forbid not tongues and desire to prophecy. If anyone thinks himself gifted or a prophet, let him accept my teachings. To those who would be ignorant, let them be ignorant. quote:
quote: If you read the verses, you'd see it's obvious. This time you said God picks and chooses ( a contradiction of scripture, but anyhow ), and this is your position overall - some people get this gift, others get that. I point out it means some have faith and suddenly I have a demon. However, the fact is, if God only gives a few people prophecy, ( although 1 Cor 14:31 says the direct opposite ), then why does Paul tell them all to seek to prophecy, and say it is a 'better' gift ? If God is not partial, why does He give some people a lesser, and others a better gift ? Why does Paul tell them to seek something they cannot have, because God only gives it to some ?
quote: It is. This was a young church, and they were being encouraged to seek to use these gifts. They were being encouraged not to all speak in tongues at once, but to use the gifts in order, to seek prophecy and interpretation, but not to forbid tongues - to use them in order. quote:
quote: Repentance does not mean admitting you're a sinner, it means being willing to do things Gods way. The focus is on the new beginning, not the life before. I didn't totally agree with your comments re: Judaism, but it is true that Christianity, then and now, is the fulfillment of the OT law.
quote: That's correct - this is salvation. The laying on of hands is immaterial, people can recieve salvation alone, it does not come from a man. However, if someone does pray with a person, it's obvious they will lay hands on them.
quote: *sigh* This is pointless - you refuse to answer my comments re: 1 Cor, how can I possibly listen to what you believe it says if you won't answer me ? You use terms like 'from what I can tell' and 'apparently' because there is no support in the Bible for what you are saying. It's obvious in Acts 8 that the possibility of their recieving the Spirit was there, and the question you continue to ignore is simply, how did they know, both before and after ? quote:
quote: So the devils are saved ? Because they know that as well. James says that faith is not typing the words into an Internet board, but acting on them.
quote: How do you know ? quote:
quote: No, in Acts 8 and 19, like I keep on saying. 1 Cor is written to believers, it does not need to discuss such things. quote:
quote: So in what context do you use this gift ? Do you interpret people who speak in tongues, without understanding them ( because you can't ), and by inspiration of the Holy Spirit ? I never said I had the gift of learning - is there such a thing ? Teaching is also not a gift, it is an ability that lots of non-Christians have. Ephesians says God gives the church teachers, that is Gods gift to the church, making sure there are able people for the ministry. I could be personal about your abilities in this area, but I won't stoop to your level, I presume you're better at teaching people your ideas if they agree with you already and/or are with you in person. quote:
quote: I think you misunderstand me, but what's new ? [This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 08, 2001).] I note you just about always edit what you say - I just say both what I feel and what I know, then I don't need to go back and edit it. |
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Saint Cheez Member Posts: 85 From: San Diego CA USA Registered: 06-24-2001 |
quote: I do not see anyone here who oppose the Gospel which also means good news. I have read Cor 1 and Paul who apparently refuted everything which you have professed so far. Paul and the Apostles have preached salvation in believing YHSVH, not in good works. If good works were the key, man would have saved himself a long time ago. YHSVH stated that man was evil and only God is good. The only way to get right with God is via YHSVH which you seem to deny. Thus, your first premise was refuted. Only a person who is guided by the Holy Spirit can say YHSVH is Lord. I am a Christian. You can deny this all you want. You are not the Judge of my heart or mind. In the end, when we die, we will find out the truth. I can not stand in your place, and you can not stand in my place. Your denying today, that I am a Christian or saved, is vainity. I also do not see where it says that speaking in tongues means you are saved. This is putting too much importance in speaking-in-tongues. Paul even said that prophecy was more desireable than speaking in tongues, that love was greater than the gifts. You seem not to agree with Paul as if Paul who was part of the church did not know what he was talking about, basically because he contradicts what you are preaching. Well, you stated to read and obey the Bible. I take it that you have interpreters in your church who can translate what you are saying when you speak in tongues? Oh, and I loved the part about me ignoring and "willfully" ignoring your words.
quote: Not sure what one sentence has to do with the other. He was accused of doing miracles via the devil. YHSVH replied that a house divided can not stand. Well, you implied that I am of the devil, when I say that I believe, therefore I am not saved. Look, MeanMan, you are either going to accept what YHSVH taught or reject it. So far, you seem to be rejecting and supplanting his teachings with your own. As I said before, by whose authority? James who was never resurrected. Like it or not, YHSVH is Lord.
quote: Everything originates from God which means that He is also around you and within you. He knows your mind and heart. You can not hide anything from Him. You need Him even to live at all. I tell the truth (worship in truth and spirit): I am evil and a sinner. I acknowledge that He is my Father and wish to come back home. Spirit means you can not see it. You do not know my heart and mind. God does though. And, thats why I say you mock Him.
quote: Oh, thats easy. First, love God with all your being, then love your fellow man. And, I keep telling you that you need to work on this, and you as much admitted it. I find it interesting that now you are emphasizing love, when before you did not.
quote: Well, I believe that the Holy Spirit has helped me to understand the Bible in particular John, but some other parts also. You have argued against me on my readings of John, so I guess you are not going to accept that. However, at least I ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom. I do not go to a website or book and read what someone else has interpreted some verses. Thats really weak, and says to me that the person does not do his own thinking and really does not put faith in the Holy Spirit. But, again, thats my opinion. Prophecy means predicting via the Holy Spirit and not "scriptual encouraging". That tells me that the person can not prophecize, even though he claims to be able to prophecize via the Holy Spirit. It also shows me that the person is abit delusional about others and himself. That person is not really being honest with other or himself, but as I said God knows. In my opinion, all the things which you have claimed, you have comeup short, yet its not my place to say that you are not guided by the Holy Spirit.
quote: Nop, I put my trust in the words of YHSVH. He did not teach works as a way to salvation. However, the Pharisees did, and many orthodox Jews did also. He taught the inner religion, worshipping in spirit and truth.
quote: Quote scripture where it says this. Either that or you are making it up. By whose authority do you say this?
quote: You have said " If you cannot speak in tongues, you have not obeyed Him and either do not love Him, or have been ignorant, as Cornelius was." Paul said the gifts were one spirit. There are many parts but one body. Cor1 13:19-20 If they wer all one part (speaking in tongues for instance) where would the body be? As it is, ther are many parts, but one body. Cor1 13:21 The eye (speaking in tongues for instance) cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" MeanMan, you have placed speaking-in-tongues above all the rest, even though Paul put it at the bottom of the list. Why? Because, it does not "edify" the church or Body of Christ. It only builds up the person. Now you are denying others Christians as really being part of the body, if they do not speak in tongues. You are totally out-of-line here. Paul is saying in fact that speaking-in-tongues should be the least desired of the gifts because it does not edify the Body of Christ. You need to get your heart and head corrected here. You may not see the problem you have, which in itself is the problem. You do not really seem awaken to yourself or God. I do not see the scriptures backing up your weird teachings. If you are not happy with these scriptures or what the church teaches, maybe you should start you own religion. Personally, I do not want anything to do with it. I believe that you are heading down the wrong road and will end up lost, if not already. The blind leading the blind as it was said.
quote: You sound like Jehovah Witness except they do not believe in the Holy Spirit or the triune God as taught by YHSVH. However, I see the same cult-like mentality again. Yup, Jehovah Witness believes that they are saved by their works and everyone is else is un-saved. Their same trick is to get people physically in their churches (hmmm... I do not think they call it a church though).
quote: I do not know what Bible you are reading, but it shows over-and-over again that God picks one person for another. The Jews in fact called themselves the "chosen" people. You really think you know God better. Don't you.
quote: I do not like to rush to judgment. I ask questions and I listen. However, I can also be blunt, because I want to hear what the person really believes and thinks. I have come to the conclusion that your preachings are not really scriptually based and you are building up yourself, not others.
quote: Again, you are not stating which verse.
quote: You are arguing with the scriptures. Maybe you need to talk to Paul about his discourse on the gifts. You are telling people to read and obey the scriptures. Now, you are arguing with Paul because he does not agree with what you preach. As I said, you supplanting the teachings of the church and YHSVH with your own teachings which do not appear scriptually based. I might even dare to say that I am in a better position to say you are not a Christain, which I am not doing. I say you are confused and delusional.
quote: I have not said that speaking-in-tongues should be forbidden. Paul clearly states that if you speak-in-tongues in church, there should be an interpretator there to tell everyone what exactly you are saying. If there is no interpreter, it is better to not say anything at all and just worship God in silence.
quote: MeanMan, if you have not admitted truth and spirit before God that you are evil and sinner, then you have not even got to first base. The baptist of water (teachings of John the Baptist) was still being used by the church as the first step to enter the Body of Christ. You keep talking about being "saved", saved from what, or do you think that you were a sinner or evil because your "works" made you perfect. Now, you really are starting to make me wonder about you.
quote: Even YHSVH had to be baptised by water (even though he was sinless) before the Holy Spirit descended on him. I don't think you can bypass it.
quote: I do not like to speak in dogmatic terms about the early church, but it appears that they were leaders who were in direct line with YHSVH, and thus were the ones to lay on hands for the people to receive the Holy Spirit. From the scriptures, this seems to be so. How did they know? They were the Apostles of the church. I take it that you were there also with them when they were building up the first church and when they were martyed for their beliefs? I think that you full of pride and presumption, and that your preachings are not scriptually based.
quote: Maybe to protect people from the likes of you who fashion all sorts of weird teachings supposedly based on scripture. But, as you have learned, I do read the Bible, can interpret it, and will call you on what you are preaching. And, as every Christian should.
quote: Well, this is a stupid question. When have you spoken in tongues over the net?
quote: Cor1 Now you are the body of Christ and ech one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, "their teachers", then worker of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and finally those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Well, if its not a gift then its definitely an appointment by God and third from the top, while speaking-in-tongues is at the bottom. Sorry, but thats the way it is. A house divided can not stand. MeanMan, you have no idea what you are saying, and I suggest you stop saying it. Teaching is a responsible position, and the teacher will be held accountable for his teachings.
quote: This is totally worthless comment. You need to get your head and heart corrected, MeanMan. However, I think you are suspect. St. cheez [This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 08, 2001).] |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm 32 years old, I've been discussing the Bible on-line for about five years and I'm beyond being 'nice' to people who are rude to me and oppose the Gospel. I'm nice enough to spend my time telling you how you can be saved, I don't have it in me to mince words when people say things that are plain dumb. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: Maybe for illiterate people, or people who have presupposed another gospel to that Paul preached. I don't see anyone standing up for the Gospel here, in any form.
quote: Excuse me ? I agree with all of this, I have said nothing about works. I think you just can't understand what James says - not that works save us, but that faith, which saves us, is dead without works. Works alone are as useless as faith alone, in fact worse. But faith without works is dead.
quote: You're right - the only reason my words matter is because I am repeating hat the Bible says. Too bad you can't step back and discuss scripture without taking offense at what the Gospel means for you if you stay in your current state.
quote: No, the simple fact is you still refuse to read what I say. You should know by now that I will say again that Paul says prophecy is more important in the context of 1 Cor 12-14, what happens in a meeting.
quote: I'm not looking for obedience, just that if you're going to discuss something with me, you'll listen sufficiently that your replys have some bearing on what I've said. I don't expect you to obey me, I just expect if you want to talk to me that you'll listen sufficiently that you know what I've said. And yes, I can interpret under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, I said that weeks ago. quote:
quote: I implied no such thing, I quoted the Bible ( James, as it happens ) in relation to the idea of belief meaning salvation.
quote: I see, I'm still waiting for a reason why you believe the book of James should not be in the Bible, and who else you reject because they don't say things you like. You may be shocked to hear that Jesus did not write *any* of the books of the Bible.
2/ How do you worship in truth ?
quote: God is not mocked. Telling the truth is not worshiping in the Spirit, or the truth, it is being honest. In the Bible, worship in the Spirit is speaking in tongues. Worshiping in truth means doing what the Bible says. quote:
quote: Jude says we keep ourselves in Gods love by praying in the Spirit. It's verse 20-21. Paul says in 1 Cor 14 that prayer in the Spirit is tongues. The Bible offers no other definitions. quote:
quote: I realised the other day you probably means 1 John, 2 Jon, 3 John. I've never argued with your interpretations, in any case they are very broad. You're yet to quote John. Anyone can decide that they have the Holy Spirit because they have an interpretation of the Bible they believe is inspired of God. The KKK nd Hitler both did that. Is this how you believe they knew they didn't have the Spirit in Acts 8 ?
quote: I guess we're back to you trying to insult me then. *turns cheek*
quote: Yes, and so do I, and so did James. You ignored my question. You don't believe God inspired the book of James, what other books are you throwing away because they do not suit you ? quote:
quote: I think I'll be relieved when that happens. Especially as I *have* been backing it up all along. Unfortunately the writers of the Bible did not foresee that in the future people would regard the gift of God as a light thing and fight to find excuses not to ask for it. Therefore it no-where says the miraculous gift of God is something you *must* have. It instead tells us we *can* and *will* have it and expects us to love God enough to want what He offers.
quote: Yes, when the church comes together. 1 Cor 14 makes this clear when he tells them not to all speak in tongues at once.
quote: This makes the context even clearer. How could it effect anyone but me, unless it is happening in a church meeting ?
quote: I'm sorry that this sort of diatribe is your way of avoiding answering my questions. You must know you are on the run - why can't you just answer me when I say something from the Bible ? If 1 Cor 12 lists gifts that not all Christians have, why is faith included ? quote:
quote: More cheap shots to avoid answering me. quote:
quote: Yes, in the OT. I am quoting the NT when I say God is no respecter of persons. To say He chooses one more than another in this age is in fact a teaching of the JW's. Ironic, that.
quote: You listen ? When did that happen ?
quote: I quote a lot more scripure than you, I'm sorry you are incapable of reading the last six or so verses of chapter 14 to find it yourself. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: You keep saying that, and I say it is a dodge. If I am delusional, answer the questions I have posed from the BIble and prove it. quote:
quote: And I agree. But you take the whole 3 chapters, make some of it say the opposite to what it does, and wrest the rest from it's context. quote:
quote: Because you are working hard to discredit me in your mind so you don't have to think about anything I say. Of course I was born in sin and saved by the righteousness God gives. My point is that the focus of repentance is not self pity or shame, but excitement at a new way, apart from sin. quote:
quote: I'm NOT bypassing baptism, where did you get such an idea ? BTW JEsus was baptised to fulfill the type - full immersion, the Holy Spirit came down and the voice of God was heard. You lose so much from the Bible when you reject the salvation message. quote:
quote: Again, your opinions instead of answers to the issus I raise.
quote: This is just plain dumb. Interpretation is not of the Bible, but of tongues. You're just making stuff up now. quote:
quote: Oh, you think only I can speak in tongues, is that it ? quote:
quote: I'm sorry you are looking for position in the church, what did Jesus say to the apolstes about this ? It is an appointment from God, in the church. I said that already.
quote: I'm happy to stand before God on the basis of what I am saying. Unlike you I answer people from the Bible, not with wild accusations. quote:
quote: Mr. Cheese, you act in a way that is both prideful and willingly ignorant. In this, you *are* the enemy. Lets give this a rest - you won't listen to what I say, or answer what the Bible says to you. If you don't want to hear the Gospel, maybe I should stop speaking it. As it is, you will be judged as having heard and not obeyed God. |
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Saint Cheez Member Posts: 85 From: San Diego CA USA Registered: 06-24-2001 |
quote: MeanMan, you have said that I am not a Christian; I am not saved; I do not read or obey the Bible, and why...
quote: So, I read Cor 1 and quoted Paul who basically refutes most of what you are teaching here. You even admitted that Paul stated otherwise. However, people need to read it for themselves and decide for themselves on this matter.
quote: I never said James should not be in the Bible. I just have yet to hear you base your teachings on what YHSVH taught, or to acknowledge YHSVH is Lord.
quote: Cor1 14:13-17 For this reason the man who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; MeanMan, the above verses refute what you are trying to say here, that the only definition of worship-in-spirit is speaking-in-tongues. The problem is that you have got this obsessing idea. quote: You seem to go out-of-your-way to avoid the teachings of YHSVH like for instance the two commands: Love God and Love man. Again, you don't give the verses, but Cor1 14:13-17 which refutes what you are teaching. You said "The Bible offers no other definitions"; I guess thats your opinion. quote: Well, I asked you to quote verse on this interpretation, and this was your answer...
quote: Yup, you still refuse to quote verses to backup the above inspiration of yours.
quote: This is much better. You admit there is no scriptures to backup this inspiration of yours. Thus, you saying, that I am not a Christian and I am not saved, was your own personal opinion not based on scriptures. However, I did provide verses Cor1 12:3 which refuted these remarks of yours. Of course, you denied these verses also. Yup, finally, in the last sentence, you back-off with these dogmatic statements and sound more reasonable, which you could have said in the first place.
quote: As usual, you do not give verse. Cor1 12:14 Now the body is not made up of one part (like speaking-in-tongues) but of many parts... 12:17 If the whole body were an eye (like speaking-in-tongues) where would the sense of hearing be? Paul discussed this same problem 2,000 years ago. And, you have repeated this problem by trying to say that speaking-in-tongues is the whole Body of Christ, thus those Christians who do not speak-in-tongues are not of the Body of Christ, are not Christians. In fact, you have taken the problem to an even higher level. I agree with Paul that all gifts are one Spirit, and each gift should be put in its proper position. Apparently, speaking-in-tongues went to the bottom of the list because it does not edify the church. However, he did qualify this. If there was an interpreter who could tell the others what you were saying, then speaking-in-tongues edifies the church. Thus, Paul said... Cor1 14:18-19 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than ALL of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligent words to instruct others than 10 thousand words in a tongue. I actually do not have any problems with people speaking-in-tongues. However, its some of your other remarks attached to it which I find highly suspect.
quote: Again, I asked where this was quoted...
quote: I guess that you meant these verses... Cor1 14:37-40 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledged that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ingnored. Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way. Well, your quote is not exactly the same but almost.
quote: I read it correctly and so did you. In fact, you argued against some of the things that he had said. So, I remind you of the verses you yourself stressed, "If he ignores this (discourse on the gifts), he himself will be ingnored. [/quote]
quote:
quote: The two above remarks to me are probably the most troubling. You seem to avoid stating that salvation is through Lord YHSVH. And, this is why your statements are troubling. John1 4:1-3 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that YHSVH Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge YHSVH is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. So far, I have yet to hear you acknowledge YHSVH or salvation is believing in his name YHSVH; however, you have acknowledged James and Jude.
quote: So, MeanMan, from all you have said so far, and from reading the Bible, I can not justify listening to your message anymore and giving it serious consideration. Why? Because your inspirations were not scriptually base and because you have yet to acknowledge that salvation comes via YHSVH, that you have yet to acknowledge him thus ignoring much of his teachings. I did listen to you and did not come to a quick judgment which were scriptually based, thus I think my judgment was fair and reasonable. St. Cheez [This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 08, 2001).] |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excuse me ? I agree with all of this, I have said nothing about works. I think you just can't understand what James says - not that works save us, but that faith, which saves us, is dead without works. Works alone are as useless as faith alone, in fact worse. But faith without works is dead. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: And it had nothing to do with works.
quote: Not at all - it says that prayer in tongues is prayer in the Spirit, this is emphasised by the fact it is different to praying with your mind. quote:
quote: Rubbish - I gave the verses in James, and you quoted the verses in 1 Cor, so either I gave them or they were not hard to find.
quote: I can't help it if you are illiterate.
quote: You work so hard to make me say things that make it easy to reject me. I give up on trying to stop you.
quote: liar.
quote: liar.
quote:
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Krylar Administrator Posts: 502 From: MD, USA Registered: 03-05-2001 |
Okay...this is getting out of hand now and I apologize for not getting involved sooner. I understand the need and right of each person to express opinions and so on, but the individual attacks is neither warranted nor acceptable. If this continues, I will take action. Heated arguments and difference of opinions are expected, degrading comments and personal attacks are not. I'm not picking on any one person here, so please don't get that impression. There has been an overall increase in this type of activity as of late. We're all in here to discuss Christian issues, not to bash each other for our beliefs. There should be no personal intolerance for others who may be ignorant of issues that you are learned of. Just because you have told 5,000 people the same thing doesn't mean that the 5,001'st person should be treated poorly. If you feel that there is a need, take it somewhere else. Also, just because you disagree with a person does not mean you have the right to smack-talk them, call them names, or make personality judgements. Attacking the issue is fine...attacking the person is not. The bottom line is that there is NO justification IN THESE boards for personal bashing. I'm not going to argue about this either. -Krylar ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Krylar: Fair enough too. quote: There can be no doubt that my position has been the impetus for this situation, although I am pleased that you have made this comment general - in starting a discussion it was certainly not my goal to end up where we are. I hope this comment from yourself will cool things down a little, I'm guessing by bringing an end to the non-discussion that has been going on for a little while. |
So, be happy and continue as you have. You are building up the church rather than yourself. I wish that I could say as much. 
