John 3:3,4,5,6,7,8

Being born again from your mother's womb can be lead-in to this story. The Hebrew alphabet has 3 mother letters which represent elements of creation: air, water and fire. The Hebrew word for heaven means basically water and fire.

YHSVH stated 3:5 unless man is born of water and the Spirt, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

The ancient Essenes, a Jewish group in YHSVH time, stated almost the same thing except born of water and fire, like heaven. If I remember correctly, did not John baptist with water and YHSVH baptist with fire.

John 6:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

In my opinion, here is the cruz of the problem. Man's only experiences in this life were experienced here on earth and in the flesh. He is born, eats food, drinks, reproduces and finally dies. In that sense, many feel they are no better than animals who do the same things.

To be honest, does anyone really know existence as a spirit and what exactly does that mean? Afterall, if you have never experienced life as a spirit, then how would you know what it is?

John 8:8 The wind blows WHEVEVER it desires. You may hear its sound, but you cannot tell WHERE it comes from or WHERE it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

In my opinion, this verse only verifies man's ignorance concerning the Spirit.

Turning normal experience and logic on its head. Man actually originated in Heaven, born of Water and Fire. Can you digest this easily? Well, except it or reject it. Flesh=death and Spirit=life. Following this logic. If you were born of Spirit in heaven, then who was your real heavenly mother represented by air, water and fire? This may be the point where man cannot honestly digest this at all and will most likely reject this question.

John 4:4 "But" said Nicodemus, "how can a man be forn when he is old? Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Thats right. This is truly impossible, because he was looking at life in the Flesh. In John, YHSVH is talking about the Spirit and not the Flesh. In 2,000 years man has not changed much really.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

Correctly translated, this reads:

The Spirit breathes where He chooses. You hear His voice but cannot tell from where it comes or where it goes. So is everyone born of the Spirit.

This is easily proven from the Greek and is a parable about the fact that whenever someone becomes a Christian they speak in tongues.

I enjoyed what you had to say until I came to your conclusions.
But anyway, it makes me thing.

Pleae check the location for your Bible references.

As far as the translation of John 3:8 is concerned you are both right. The greek word for spirit is the same greek word for breath. The same word means both things. (I think the greek transliteration is Pschuche - but I am not at a place to check that).

As far as having to speak in tongues to be a christian, well then I am not a Christian because I don't speak in tongues. The spirit has given me greater gifts such as preaching and teaching.

One thing you are right about Saint cheez is that we do not understand the spirit. We never will, all we can do is try to grasp the understanding of the spirit by what is revealed in the Bible.

Revelator

------------------

www.revelatorgames.com

This opens-up another can of worms. If man is also spirit, then this implies that he may have existed before he was born on this earth, and that he may live in the future, after his death... both of which are really hard to know with certainty. Now, this I would say does depend on faith.

In my opinion, John does bring up this possibility. However, I think for most people who experience life in the flesh, this is not a possibility and therefore unacceptable.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

Let me guess the part you are having problems with... Could it be the feminine aspect of God which was indirectly brought up in these passages?

First chap of Genesis states that man was made in the image of God, ELOHIM, who were both male and female. And, of course, ELOHIM created the universe as we know it. Are not male and female aspects throughout all creation?

Now what part of creation has man forgottened, ignored or just plain does not recognize? John may be trying to get this message across, if man will open his mind up to it. Anyway, thats my opinion.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

As to you're not being a Christian yet, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm also sorry that you mistake your ability for public speaking to be a substitute for any of the nine gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 12, all given to every Christian, although not all used at once ( the point of 1 Cor 12-14).

1 Cor 12 says the manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone born of the Spirit, Acts 8 records people who have faith and miracles being told they do not have the Spirit, and it is clear visible evidence was expected and later seen. How do you propose the voice of the Spirit was heard when you believe you were saved ?

You say:

quote:

---

The Spirit breathes where He chooses. You hear His voice but cannot tell from where it comes or where it goes. So is everyone born of the Spirit.

---

I can see that you got your interpretation straight from the interlinear Bible.

You seem to have a better understanding than all the langauge scholars on this verse. The way you interprete it does not make sense.

If you turn your sentence around it says: Everyone who is born of the spirit breathes where the Spirit chooses and speaks the Spirit, but you can't tell where the voice comes from.

There are three instances where "pneuma" is translated as wind:
John 3:8
Acts 27:40
Acts 2:2
and in Acts 17:25 it is translated breath.

So it is perfectly all right to translate the text with pneuma meaning both spirit and wind.

You say:

quote:

---

This is easily proven from the Greek and is a parable about the fact that whenever someone becomes a Christian they speak in tongues

---

You are making Jesus say something he isn't. There is nothing about tongue speaking in the context of this chapter. You are just super-imposing your beliefs on this text to support your cause for all Christians must speak in tongues.

Now to get to the crux of the problem:

Speaking in tongues in the Bible is miraculously speaking another human language. Not gibberish.

The first gift of tongues given to the Apostles at Pentecost was other languages (Acts 2:8) There is not indication anywhere in the Bible to suggest that it is gibberish that no-one understands.

Read 1 Corinthians 12-14, and it makes perfect sense reading those chapters knowing that speaking in tongues is speaking foreign languages.

You say that all nine gifts of the Spirit are given to all believers! Where do you get that from?

Here is 1 Corinthians 12 and also in the KJV which you seem to love:

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

God gives different gifts to different people. How can you make these verses say otherwise???

If everyone got every gift, Paul would have said that.

Well, that's all for now, I'm sure I will be writing more to clarify this position for you MM

Revelator!

------------------

www.revelatorgames.com

I got a bit sidetracked with the tongue issue, so I haven't had a chance to reply.

Thanks for the affirmation. I know the Holy Spirit works within me. I know that because I have a guilty conscience a lot of the time, and it the Holy Spirit who keeps working on me to become the person that God wants me to be.

With the issue of the suggestion of the femininity of God. I really don't have a problem with that because I have studied the same text that you quoted. Both male and female are made in God's image.

God is genderless, but because the God revealed himself in a patriachal society, it was natural for Him to be given the masculine gender.

Since Jesus came as a male, it has reinforced that point. I believe that Jesus will retain his male gender throughout eternity.

But since in heaven Jesus says we will not marry, perhaps the suggestion is that we will become like the angels - genderless? Who knows.

I do not have the same fascination for the spirit of man that you have.
My understanding of the bible is man does not have a spirit in the general understanding of the term.

Gen 2:7 puts it well: the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Dust +(plus) breath of life = Living person.

When we die, the process is reversed:

Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath) returns to God who gave it.

In hebrew, the word "Ruwach" can be interpreted as "breath" or "spirit" or "wind" - just like the Greek word pneuma in the New Testament.

So when we die:

Living person -(minus) breath of life = Dust.

When we die, we just cease to exist. Of coarse God has a record of us in heaven and the good news is that when Jesus comes again, he will resurrect us from the earth and give us bodies that will not decay.

As for ghosts - they are evil angels impersonating people we know so that they can decieve us. Why else would God forbid in the Old Testament for us to seek out ghosts and the such. If ghosts and spirits really were former humans, wouldn't it be good to talk to them and find out what heaven is like and what we have to do to get there????

Anyway, what you say St. Cheez forces my brain to stretch a bit in just trying to follow your logic. So keep it going, but don't expect me to grasp what you are saying. (though I try)

Revelator!

------------------

www.revelatorgames.com

1/ Yes, I did not claim that Pneuma cannot mean breath. However, what you think Jesus said is wrong and means nothing. The wind does NOT blow where it chooses. You did not addess the fact that the word translated sound means a voice, an articulate statement.

>>You are just super-imposing your beliefs on this text to support your cause for all Christians must speak in tongues.

2/ Given that it's a parable, I'm happy to hear what *you* think it means. But proving me wrong by twisting the sentence into knots until it doesn't make sense is worthless.

>>Speaking in tongues in the Bible is miraculously speaking another human language. Not gibberish.

>>The first gift of tongues given to the Apostles at Pentecost was other languages (Acts 2:8) There is not indication anywhere in the Bible to suggest that it is gibberish that no-one understands.

Given that you do not have the gift, I am interested to know where your authority regarding it comes from. 1 Cor 14 states that when no man understands when someone speaks in tongues, this is why there is a gift of interpretation. It is a language given for prayer, seeing as we 'know not what to pray for, as we ought'.

>>Read 1 Corinthians 12-14, and it makes perfect sense reading those chapters knowing that speaking in tongues is speaking foreign languages.

Languages understood by no man, but interpreted by the power of the Holy Spirit, yes.

>>You say that all nine gifts of the Spirit are given to all believers! Where do you get that from?

By reading all the three chapters in context.

>Here is 1 Corinthians 12 and also in the KJV which you seem to love:

It's a very good translation, but I often use the NIV when discussing the Bible with people who use the NIV, despite it's failings it is still good enough to prove my point.

>8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
>9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
>10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
>God gives different gifts to different people. How can you make these verses say otherwise???

The context here is of the body coming together, a church meeting. As I have already stated, 1 Cor 14 says we can all speak in tongues, interpret and prophecy. Are you interpreting these verses to indicate that some Christians do not have faith ?

Also, early on in 1 Cor 12 it states there are many gifts, but the manifestation of the Spirit is given to all. Not all Christians will use the gift of prophecy, though they can. All Christians will, and must, speak in tongues, the manifestation of the Spirit.

>.If everyone got every gift, Paul would have said that.

>Well, that's all for now, I'm sure I will be writing more to clarify this position for you MM

Paul tells them in 1 Cor 14 to earnestly desire the best gifts. Two questions

1/ If God is impartial, why do you claim the 'best gifts' are given only to some, and

2/ If we all get different gifts, why does Paul tell them all in Corinth to seek to prophecy ? Surely this leaves the majority seeking something they can not have, and a minority given status in the church as specially gifted ?

In a nutshell, if you reply, please tell me how they knew the people in Acts 8 first didn't and then did have the Holy Spirit and how this fits with your doctrine ( which I can only guess at at this stage ), how you believe some people are Christians without faith, and how it sits with you that your interpretation of 1 Cor 12 directly opposes statements made by Paul in 1 Cor 14:28 and ( from memory ) 31 or so. Then we can worry about what John 3 means, and discuss what the pure language of Zeph 3:9 is, and why you need it today.

I would never contend that a Christian could get by with some of the gifts and reject others, why would you suggest the same about the gifts ?

1. To enter the Kingdom, you have to be "reborn"; however, it is really impossible to re-enter your mother's womb. That is true.

2. The Hebrew Mother elements of water and fire are invisible and Spiritual; we are not talking literally about water and fire. Yes, John did baptise by water and YHSVH did baptise by fire. Even YHSVH had to be baptised with water before Holy Spirit descended on him.

3. The Hebrew word for heaven contains the elements of fire-water. If I did exist before, was I "born" before from water and fire. Just admitting the possibility does not seem to be what YHSVH was saying about "reborn". I suspect that he was talking maybe about the future.

I just remembered that he mentioned about "giving birth" further in John. I suspect that this may be the answer to the above problem. I just never made the connection until today; however, I need to review the chap, before I bring it up later.

Revelator, I believe that John states "Spirit" in the first half of the book and later uses "Holy Spirit" in the later portion. I do not believe this accident or chance. There is a reason for this. However, I would rather go to this some other time.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

However, I am sure that "speaking in tongues" could be a ligitimate reason for saying "being reborn". I suppose it means alot of things to alot of Christians. Obviously, I have a different point-of-view on this problem.

Personally, I do not use the phrase "being born again" to describe the beginning of my Christian journey. I am more concerned right now with becoming more acquainted with the Holy Spirit and receiving wisdom.

I guess the reason why I am interested in the Spirit is because I realized that man can not confine the Spirit in a small and limited box which we call the Flesh. The Spirit is no limitations and is unknowable. We can not know the Spirit like we know our limited Flesh or as I call earthly personality. I suspect that when we are born of spirit, we become unlimited, unknowable also. Or, maybe, we always were but did not realize this, because we identify with our flesh and earthly personality which is severely limited and impermanente.

Now, if our earthly personality or flesh is "not permanente", then what part of us is? If we never really knew what its like to live as a spirit alone, and never knew well our spiritual self (because we only know life experiences here on earth), then who is our real self?

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

Being born again doesn't mean speaking in tongues, it means being a new person, having your heart of stone replaced with a heart of flesh, living a new life based on new principles. It's not about realising what a sinner you were and setting out to mend your ways - this is works and total garbage. The Holy Spirit indwells a Christian and MOVITATES them to WANT to live a new life. Example: I drank way to much before I was a Christian, although I called myself one and tried to stop drinking. When I recieved the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, I stopped WANTING to drink. God did the work in me, I just did what I wanted to, it was God that changed my desires.

Speaking in tongues is the external evidence of an internal experience. It is what is seen every time and so cannot be seperated from salvation, but it is not the whole kit and kaboodle.

Sounds to me like the last two paragraphs is you struggling to understand something that you're not supposed to have to work out - God will reveal these things to you if you obey the Gospel, if you become a Christian by asking God for the Holy Spirit, and He answers the same way He has been for 2000 odd years. You will recieve a tangible experience that will be evident to anyone present because they will see you are speaking in tongues - in a language God gives you to pray to Him.

I found this on a Speaking in Tongues page,

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5744/questions.html

and found that they do seem to have troubles with the baptism of water.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5744/questions/q_oftheweek5.html

As I understand John, man was or is spiritually dead even though he appears alive, because man identified with the flesh with the animal body, and forgot who he really was or is.

Everything originates from God in heaven; He really is our Father. However, if a person identifies with his physical body, then of course he will find it rather incredible that he is actually spirit born of water and fire (Holy Spirit). John baptised with water and YHSVH baptised with fire (Holy Spirit).

In my opinion, God created the world with these invisible, spiritual elements. So, how can a person deny the baptist of water, while acknowledging that a spiritual rebirth by water and fire. As I mentioned before, the Hebrew word for heaven is Shim-mum which means fire-water.

YHSVH said that if a person believes him, he will cross over from spiritual death to life. However, not identifying with the flesh is the great stumbling block. How can man possible remember how he lived as a spirit in heaven? God awakened man's from spiritual deadness. Its a mystery. Its God's grace. And, its the good news for those who can receive YHSVH and believe him, even though its does frankly sound incredible. We all know our earthly father and mother. Right?

Well, I can see now why this thread got de-railed earlier, and feel that I should re-state my speculations on being born again.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez