Ever heard of the Bull's Eye? Well, the head of Taurus the Bull has 3 stars which you can not see (asleep?), one of which is the Bull's eye! OK, that comes to 10 sisters in total.

The parable concerned the coming of the Lord. Did you know that the God of Isra-EL was EL, who was also represented by the Bull? Strange coincidences! YHSVH stated that if he told you all he knew, it might blow you mind, which lives in a rather limited ego-centric world.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

†Caleb†

I can assure you that the stars in the sky have nothing to do with the parable. I suggest you read the parable as Jesus meant it to be read, and don't try to find any hidden meanings and thus miss the real message.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

In my opinion, a few ideas presented in the Bible seem to force people to think about God in different ways for instance "the first are last and the last are first". People normally do not think in this manner. Usually, if you are first in line, then you should be served first. Or, maybe you do not mind people cutting in front of you or cutting you off in traffic?

In particular, I love the Book of John. The logic is totally upside-down and the ideas, which are presented, are not the norm like for instance Everything originates in heaven, not (here on the earth, which is an ego centric way of looking at reality). I feel it takes an open-mind to get anything out of it.

I am assuming that man knows all the reasons why God created the universe and the stars here on this obscure planet at the edge of the galaxy. However, even YHVSH admitted that there were some things only the Father knew like the next coming.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

[This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited June 24, 2001).]

You say:

quote:

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I think that one of the pluses concerning the parables is that there does not seem to be any fixed meaning to them and can be abstracted to indefinite higher levels of abstraction.

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The definition of a parable is that it has one meaning. When you scan through the parables, you can see how Jesus makes a major point out of every parable.

As far as the 10 young women in Matthew 25, the context is waiting for the second coming of Jesus.
This parable is an interesting one, because it says that 5 of the young women were expecting Jesus coming much earlier (hence the lack of oil for their lamps). They were not prepared for Jesus to take so long.

We need to be the same. When we first become Christians, some of us get so excited that we sell everything we have, leave our jobs, and preach Jesus to everyone. But when Jesus does not come as soon as we expect, we get disappointed and decide to throw Jesus out with the bathwater.

That's the simple point Jesus was making.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

I had once a dream on this subject which you brought up. As I understood the dream, the message was that Christianity was rather fragile, like the two fishes which I held in my hands (in the dream); that Christianity would die, if people did not start learning the inner teachings of YHSVH. As I understood it, present day Christianity fell into the same trap as the Pharisees who practiced only "outward" practices of their religion which was completely divorced from their "inner" life.

That "water" cleanses the outer actions, but "fire" cleanses the inner being. Maybe, in our present times, we have yet to learn inner cleansing by "fire" which truely prurifies. As I understood it, both experiences can be extremely painful just the same.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

I have always been surprised that Christians, who encourage people to read the Bible, in fact do not read the Bible well. Either that or they only understand what they want to understand.

The Bible contains hundreds of examples where God communicated to man through dreams. For instance, Joseph was told to wed Mary and to flee to Egypt in dreams. Either the Bible is true or it is not. Either God has and does communicated to man in dreams or He does not.

Just because you or other folks now-a-days are not imspired by dreams does not make false what the Bible states. Maybe you need to open your closed-minded and give God a chance to talk to you. I suppose that God only talks to special folks like prophets and not to ordinary folks... like yourself.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

[This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited June 30, 2001).]

I once remember this Catholic priest who wrote that God did not talk to him. He actually declared his lack of faith to the flock.

As I understand it, God is constantly trying to get our attention and trying to talk to us; He in fact is with us always. Maybe man thinks too much (pre-occupied). Maybe man does not really want to talk to God, because man wants to do his own thing rather than being reminded why he is here. Maybe man is constantly running away from himself, and therefore is lost to his self and God.

Ask and you shall receive; seek and you shall find; knock and the door will be opened to you. How many Christians actually believe the words of YHSVH or give it a try? Ask a question, and see if you will not be answered. By the way, God can use anything to answer you. I have proven this to myself over-and-over again. I am constantly getting help and answers from God. And, I know kind of what happened to me. When God got my egotistic, earthly personality out-of-way, I started getting a flood of communicating with God.

I think YHSVH said something about the people of his times, and I kind of understand to a degree what he meant.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

The scripture re: ask, seek knock. In the Greek this means ask and keep on asking, seek and keep on seeking, and if you read the verses that follow, it is about seeking God for the Holy Spirit. It's not to do with looking for blessing as a Christian, but rather how to become one in the first place. Please get your facts together by reading more than a verse here and there before arrogantly presuming to tell me to read my Bible.

God communicates with Christians through the voice gifts, through preaching, through reading the Bible. He is able to communicate through our conscience if we are both reading the Bible and praying in the Spirit ( speaking in tongues ), which the Bible says keeps us in His love.

Not sure what you saying here.

"In that time, God in fact did communicate using dreams. The vision is now sealed according to Revelation, and there is no room for private interpretation."

OK, I am probably wrong on this parable. I am willing to admit that.

OK, you agree God did communicate in dreams. So, revelation states that God will not communicate to man in dreams. Obviously, you don't bother doing your own thinking when you read thus interpret. Who then made that interpretation? I do not believe that revelation states this specifically. I am curious who made that interpretation that God does not communicate anymore with man in dreams.

"The Scriptures tell us everything we need to know, and God communicates directly with His people through the voice gifts of 1 Cor 14. If your church does not operate the gifts of tongues, interpretation & prophecy then it is dead and God has been silenced."

Hmmmm... I have been to Evangelic church before. I admit that they worship the Holy Spirit in a rather frenzied manner: jumping, running, yelling, speaking in tongues (never knew exactly what anyone was saying so the message was lost on me at least), etc. They were good, well meaning people. However, if I remember correctly, reading the Bible for them was low priority. Evangelical movements is not really my way much like snake handling is not my way either. These types of worship seem to have alot in common. I think that the evangelical movement was more keen on getting more people in their church or maybe converting people.

"The scripture re: ask, seek knock. In the Greek this means ask and keep on asking, seek and keep on seeking, and if you read the verses that follow, it is about seeking God for the Holy Spirit. It's not to do with looking for blessing as a Christian, but rather how to become one in the first place."

I think you got it backwards. You told me to read the Bible and not to interpret it.

Well, of course, you can ask God for the Holy Spirit. Where do you get the idea that God's people do not seek the blessings of God? This seems to be state over-and-over again in the Bible. In my case, receiving wisdom from God is important.

"Please get your facts together by reading more than a verse here and there before arrogantly presuming to tell me to read my Bible."

Again, you asked me to read the Bible and to not interpret the Bible. Well, I actually do read the Bible and I am willing to talk about it particularly John. You, on the otherhand, you seem to profess to reading the Bible, yet I do not get the impression that you want to talk about it with anyone except maybe speaking in tongues to people. As I said before, your message is lost on me, if you speak in any language otherthan English. So, far you do not seem to have any living food to feed my starving spirit. Sorry.

"God communicates with Christians through the voice gifts, through preaching, through reading the Bible. He is able to communicate through our conscience if we are both reading the Bible and praying in the Spirit ( speaking in tongues ), which the Bible says keeps us in His love."

You don't seem to have voice gifts, but I will take your word for it. By the way, do you understand what you are saying when you speak in tongues? Is there any part of the Bible which is of importance to you? Do you want to talk to others like here on the net about it? I have not seen that so far.

OK, you are stressing communal worship. I have not problems with communal worship. However, I tend to translate worship of God on a personal level; I personalize it. Why? Well, if the Bible states things to which I can not relate, then what good is it to me, and therefore what good am I to others or God. YHVSH tended to personalize also, and this was the main reason why he was murdered by devout Jews in his time. We say... or they say...does not seem to have that strong a message as a personal message: I say, I think, I feel... It also takes great courage to personalize a message especially if you know that devout religious folks may try killing you for speaking your own thoughts and feelings (assuming you are a Christian and are guided by the Holy Spirit). Yes, many prophets have died this way.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

[This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 01, 2001).]

There's no polite way to point out that this is a basic concept in the Bible and you should know it.

"In that time, God in fact did communicate using dreams. The vision is now sealed according to Revelation, and there is no room for private interpretation."

OK, I am probably wrong on this parable. I am willing to admit that.

OK, you agree God did communicate in dreams. So, revelation states that God will not communicate to man in dreams. Obviously, you don't bother doing your own thinking when you read thus interpret. Who then made that interpretation? I do not believe that revelation states this specifically. I am curious who made that interpretation that God does not communicate anymore with man in dreams.

*sigh* I didn't say Revelation made this specific statement, I said the vision is sealed. This means there is nothing new to know, and we don't therefore need God to send us dreams in order to tell us stuff, it's all in there. I am specifically concerned about people running around telling people what they have dreamed and building ideas about God based on those dreams. If you feel God has told you something in a dream, I recommend you keep it to yourself, is my point. If you are right, and God DID tell you something, He is equally capable of sending the same dream to anyone else He wants to see it. ;0)

"The Scriptures tell us everything we need to know, and God communicates directly with His people through the voice gifts of 1 Cor 14. If your church does not operate the gifts of tongues, interpretation & prophecy then it is dead and God has been silenced."

Hmmmm... I have been to Evangelic church before. I admit that they worship the Holy Spirit in a rather frenzied manner: jumping, running, yelling, speaking in tongues (never knew exactly what anyone was saying so the message was lost on me at least), etc. They were good, well meaning

1 Cor 12-14 is written to stop people behaving in this way. It sounds like you found your way into a looney bin, and 1 Cor 14 says that's exactly how people will respond to such behaviour - thinking people are mad.

people. However, if I remember correctly, reading the Bible for them was low priority. Evangelical movements is not really my way much like snake

It sure sounds like it. Snake handlers are morons - the Bible says not to test God.

handling is not my way either. These types of worship seem to have alot in common. I think that the evangelical movement was more keen on getting more people in their church or maybe converting people.

Probably more keen on increasing the take from the tithe bag, based on my experience of such people.

"The scripture re: ask, seek knock. In the Greek this means ask and keep on asking, seek and keep on seeking, and if you read the verses that follow, it is about seeking God for the Holy Spirit. It's not to do with looking for blessing as a Christian, but rather how to become one in the first place."

I think you got it backwards. You told me to read the Bible and not to interpret it.

I'm lost - I didn't say not to interpret it, I said to use all of it.

Well, of course, you can ask God for the Holy Spirit. Where do you get the idea that God's people do not seek the blessings of God? This seems to be state over-and-over again in the Bible. In my case, receiving wisdom from God is important.

I don't get that idea at all, you're just not reading what I say. That scripture, the one you quoted, is about asking for the Holy Spirit. Of COURSE we can ask for blessing - healing and miracles are two of the nine gifts available to all Christians in 1 Cor 12.

"Please get your facts together by reading more than a verse here and there before arrogantly presuming to tell me to read my Bible."

Again, you asked me to read the Bible and to not interpret the Bible.

No, I asked you to read it so you can interpret in context.

Well, I actually do read the Bible and I am willing to talk about it particularly John. You, on the otherhand, you seem to profess to reading the Bible, yet I do not get the impression that you want to talk about it with anyone except maybe speaking in tongues to people. As I said before,

I didn't come here with the intention of discussing anything, but I'm happy to talk about whatever you like. However, so long as you oppose the most basic promises of salvation, I will focus on them.

your message is lost on me, if you speak in any language otherthan English. So, far you do not seem to have any living food to feed my starving spirit. Sorry.

I'm sorry too. I'm sorry that you seem unable to comprehend the things I have said, and that your immediate reaction is to oppose everything I say, and everything you presume I say.

"God communicates with Christians through the voice gifts, through preaching, through reading the Bible. He is able to communicate through our conscience if we are both reading the Bible and praying in the Spirit ( speaking in tongues ), which the Bible says keeps us in His love."

You don't seem to have voice gifts, but I will take your word for it. By

By voice gifts I mean tongues, interpretation and prophecy. God has given them all to me, just like He makes them available to every Christian, and gives tongues as a necessary gift at the point of conversion.

the way, do you understand what you are saying when you speak in tongues?

Of course not - if I did 1 Cor 14 indicates I couldn't possibly be speaking in tongues.

Is there any part of the Bible which is of importance to you? Do you want to talk to others like here on the net about it? I have not seen that so far.

The whole Bible is important, but my favourite book is James. Full of good, solid advice that emphasises doing Gods will instead of just talking about it.

OK, you are stressing communal worship. I have not problems with communal worship. However, I tend to translate worship of God on a personal level;

Of course worship is personal, I have however been talking about operation of gifts that occurs when the church comes together. If in personalising it you fail to belong to a congregation then you oppose what the Bible says. If you attend a church and feel that this corperate membership saves you, you oppose the Bible also.

I personalize it. Why? Well, if the Bible states things to which I can not relate, then what good is it to me, and therefore what good am I to others or God. YHVSH tended to personalize also, and this was the main reason why he was murdered by devout Jews in his time. We say... or they say...does not seem to have that strong a message as a personal message: I say, I think, I feel... It also takes great courage to personalize a message especially if you know that devout religious folks may try killing you for speaking your own thoughts and feelings (assuming you are a Christian and are guided by the Holy Spirit). Yes, many prophets have died this way.

quote:

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*sigh* I didn't say Revelation made this specific statement, I said the vision is sealed. This means there is nothing new to know, and we don't therefore need God to send us dreams in order to tell us stuff, it's all in there."

---

You did not mention a verse either. You did not mention who made this interpretation either. "There is nothing new to know". I take it that you know everything then. (I am just wondering if this doctrine is a way to keep people from thinking or asking tough questions.) This doctrine sounds abit suspect. I am curious. Do you believe in free will? I have noticed that some Christians have much problems with free will.

quote:

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I am specifically concerned about people running around telling people what they have dreamed and building ideas about God based on those dreams. If you feel God has told you something in a dream, I recommend you keep it to yourself, is my point. If you are right, and God DID tell you something, He is equally capable of sending the same dream to anyone else He wants to see it.

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This may be the main the problem. Maybe you do not believe God communicates with man in dreams, because you have either not experienced yourself. But, considering your above attitude, I suspect you are not open to this idea anyway. Yes, I think in your case, this is probably not possible.

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1 Cor 12-14 is written to stop people behaving in this way. It sounds like you found your way into a looney bin, and 1 Cor 14 says that's exactly how people will respond to such behaviour - thinking people are mad.

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Well, speaking in tongues reminds me of evangelical workship. I take it that your church is evangelical?

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It sure sounds like it. Snake handlers are morons - the Bible says not to test God.

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I agree. Thought the same verse in fact.

St. Cheez: handling is not my way either. These types of worship seem to have alot in common. I think that the evangelical movement was more keen on getting more people in their church or maybe [converting people.]

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Probably more keen on increasing the take from the tithe bag, based on my experience of such people.

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Probably right here also.

quote:

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I'm lost - I didn't say not to interpret it, I said to use all of it.

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Well, I appreciate that you clarified that point.

quote:

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I don't get that idea at all, you're just not reading what I say. That scripture, the one you quoted, is about asking for the Holy Spirit. Of COURSE we can ask for blessing - healing and miracles are two of the nine gifts available to all Christians in 1 Cor 12.

---

Glad that you clarified that point also.

quote:

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I didn't come here with the intention of discussing anything, but I'm happy to talk about whatever you like. However, so long as you oppose the most basic promises of salvation, I will focus on them.

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Well, this sounds abit evangelical to me with the assumption that the evangelist is already saved and everyone else is going to hell even if they are Christains also. Seriously, if all men are evil and only God is good as YHSVH state, we most likely will all go to hell. God saves man. Man does not save himself. However, I would like to talk this later in John. I find the way most talk about salvation rather interesting.

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I'm sorry too. I'm sorry that you seem unable to comprehend the things I have said, and that your immediate reaction is to oppose everything I say, and everything you presume I say.

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Well, so far, you have stated over-and-over that people need to talk in tongues. Now this may well be useful if you are an evangelist who is trying to save souls in other countries. I am more interested in man's soul in relation to God. How do you feed the soul spiritual food?

quote:

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By voice gifts I mean tongues, interpretation and prophecy. God has given them all to me, just like He makes them available to every Christian, and gives tongues as a necessary gift at the point of conversion.

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I will take your word for it. "At the point of conversion" Yes, you sound like an evangelist. I guess for you this is the only proof positive that a person is saved. As I said, hearing you speak in tongues will most likely not help me. However, I would be interested in hearing your interpretations and prophecies.

quote:

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The whole Bible is important, but my favourite book is James. Full of good, solid advice that emphasises doing Gods will instead of just talking about it.

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You should talk about it. Yup, your works make you perfect and better than other Christians. I think that was one of the reasons why this radio preacher did not like John; he thought these Christians were weak. Interesting to hear this class system in Christianity. Some deserve to sit in the front and the rest sit in the back or stand up. In particular, I think its rather funny that Jehovah Witness can be (resurrected?) by walking the streets; however, I do admit that it is work.

quote:

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Of course worship is personal, I have however been talking about operation of gifts that occurs when the church comes together. If in personalising it you fail to belong to a congregation then you oppose what the Bible says. If you attend a church and feel that this corperate membership saves you, you oppose the Bible also.

---

I assume you are referring to interpretation again. Sounds like a no win situation again. Do you happen to have any "good news", and good food. The food and drink you offer seem rather like poison. I assume that you have saved alot of folks to date.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

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Man, this is getting long!

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That's what tends to happen.....

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*sigh* I didn't say Revelation made this specific statement, I said the vision is sealed. This means there is nothing new to know, and we don't therefore need God to send us dreams in order to tell us stuff, it's all in there."
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You did not mention a verse either. You did not mention who made this interpretation either. "There is nothing new to know". I take it that you know everything then. (I am just wondering if this doctrine is a way to keep people from thinking or asking tough questions.) This doctrine sounds abit suspect. I am curious. Do you believe in free will? I have noticed that some Christians have much problems with free will.

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Of course I believe in free will *scratches head*. Of course I don't know it all either, you're twisting my words. I just know where to look for information and it's not my sleep.

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I am specifically concerned about people running around telling people what they have dreamed and building ideas about God based on those dreams. If you feel God has told you something in a dream, I recommend you keep it to yourself, is my point. If you are right, and God DID tell you something, He is equally capable of sending the same dream to anyone else He wants to see it.
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quote:

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This may be the main the problem. Maybe you do not believe God communicates with man in dreams, because you have either not experienced yourself. But, considering your above attitude, I suspect you are not open to this idea anyway. Yes, I think in your case, this is probably not possible.

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I'm open to the idea, actually. I just think that people should keep these things to themselves, as there is no checksum, no way to prove that it wasn't just your imagination and that you're assuming something that is not true. Also, I'd feel that people running around sharing their dreams are making something of themselves by claiming a direct line to God that could leave others feeling a need to experience the same thing, which in turn leads to all sorts of strange things being 'revealed' to people in their sleep.

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1 Cor 12-14 is written to stop people behaving in this way. It sounds like you found your way into a looney bin, and 1 Cor 14 says that's exactly how people will respond to such behaviour - thinking people are mad.
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Well, speaking in tongues reminds me of evangelical workship. I take it that your church is evangelical?

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My church is a Christian church, I shun all other labels.

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It sure sounds like it. Snake handlers are morons - the Bible says not to test God.
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I agree. Thought the same verse in fact.

St. Cheez: handling is not my way either. These types of worship seem to have alot in common. I think that the evangelical movement was more keen on getting more people in their church or maybe [converting people.]

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Probably more keen on increasing the take from the tithe bag, based on my experience of such people.
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Probably right here also.

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One church actually handed me a direct debit form - the only time in four months anyone there spoke to me....

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I'm lost - I didn't say not to interpret it, I said to use all of it.
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Well, I appreciate that you clarified that point.

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I don't get that idea at all, you're just not reading what I say. That scripture, the one you quoted, is about asking for the Holy Spirit. Of COURSE we can ask for blessing - healing and miracles are two of the nine gifts available to all Christians in 1 Cor 12.
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Glad that you clarified that point also.

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I didn't come here with the intention of discussing anything, but I'm happy to talk about whatever you like. However, so long as you oppose the most basic promises of salvation, I will focus on them.
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Well, this sounds abit evangelical to me with the assumption that the evangelist is already saved and everyone else is going to hell even if they are Christains also. Seriously, if all men are evil and only God is good as YHSVH state, we most likely will all go to hell. God saves man. Man does not save himself. However, I would like to talk this later in John. I find the way most talk about salvation rather interesting.

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And yet we see lots of examples that God uses man to spread the message. For example, why was Peter sent to Cornelius, insteas of the angel who appeared to Cornelius witnessing to him ?

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I'm sorry too. I'm sorry that you seem unable to comprehend the things I have said, and that your immediate reaction is to oppose everything I say, and everything you presume I say.
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Well, so far, you have stated over-and-over that people need to talk in tongues. Now this may well be useful if you are an evangelist who is trying to save souls in other countries. I am more interested in man's soul in relation to God. How do you feed the soul spiritual food?

---

By encouraging people who have the Holy Spirit to pray in the Spirit ( which is tongues, and keeps us in Gods love according to Jude 20-21 ), and lots of other things, too many to try to provide a list. I admit most of them come from James and relate to getting out and doing your christianity, not just speaking about it.

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By voice gifts I mean tongues, interpretation and prophecy. God has given them all to me, just like He makes them available to every Christian, and gives tongues as a necessary gift at the point of conversion.
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I will take your word for it. "At the point of conversion" Yes, you sound like an evangelist. I guess for you this is the only proof positive that a person is saved. As I said, hearing you speak in tongues will most likely not help me. However, I would be interested in hearing your interpretations and prophecies.

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Labels are a nice way to compartmentalise people, and classification is a good way to disregard someone also. It won't help you at all to hear me pray in the Spirit, you need to do so yourself.

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The whole Bible is important, but my favourite book is James. Full of good, solid advice that emphasises doing Gods will instead of just talking about it.
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You should talk about it. Yup, your works make you perfect and better than other Christians. I think that was one of the reasons why this radio preacher did not like John; he thought these Christians were weak. Interesting to hear this class system in Christianity. Some deserve to sit in the front and the rest sit in the back or stand up. In particular, I think its rather funny that Jehovah Witness can be (resurrected?) by walking the streets; however, I do admit that it is work.

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The whole JW thing is just plain odd to me.

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Of course worship is personal, I have however been talking about operation of gifts that occurs when the church comes together. If in personalising it you fail to belong to a congregation then you oppose what the Bible says. If you attend a church and feel that this corperate membership saves you, you oppose the Bible also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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I assume you are referring to interpretation again. Sounds like a no win situation again. Do you happen to have any "good news", and good food. The food and drink you offer seem rather like poison. I assume that you have saved alot of folks to date.

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I have saved no-one, nor have you. God gives the increase. I'm sorry the Gospel is poison to you, but to some we are the savour of life, to others the stench of death.

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Of course I believe in free will *scratches head*. Of course I don't know it all either, you're twisting my words. I just know where to look for information and it's not my sleep.

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Glad to hear you believe in free will. However, I get a bad feeling about the above interpretation. It sounds like a mind-control interpretation. I also do not feel good about the idea that there is nothing new to know. If God is infinite, unknowable Spirit, how is it possible to not learn anything new? We are constantly learning new things about ourselves and the universe.

By the way, do you really know all the reasons why God has life on this earth sleep?

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I'm open to the idea, actually. I just think that people should keep these things to themselves, as there is no checksum, no way to prove that it wasn't just your imagination and that you're assuming something that is not true. Also, I'd feel that people running around sharing their dreams are making something of themselves by claiming a direct line to God that could leave others feeling a need to experience the same thing, which in turn leads to all sorts of strange things being 'revealed' to people in their sleep.

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Well, I have actually had things presented in dreams checksumed by the Bible, or rather the Bible backed up the dream. I did learn new things. However, I am almost certain you are ready yet to hear it. I took months or years to deal with it. "Direct line" just implies that others may not believe God is guiding them which is a lack of faith. That is something each person has to deal with on a personal basis. I take responsibility for my own life, thinking and feelings.

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One church actually handed me a direct debit form - the only time in four months anyone there spoke to me....

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There is something about this in John which I find interesting. I would like to discuss it later.
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And yet we see lots of examples that God uses man to spread the message. For example, why was Peter sent to Cornelius, insteas of the angel who appeared to Cornelius witnessing to him ?

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I'm sorry too. I'm sorry that you seem unable to comprehend the things I have said, and that your immediate reaction is to oppose everything I say, and everything you presume I say.

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Correct. And, I still see alot work needed in India and China.

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By encouraging people who have the Holy Spirit to pray in the Spirit ( which is tongues, and keeps us in Gods love according to Jude 20-21 ), and lots of other things, too many to try to provide a list. I admit most of them come from James and relate to getting out and doing your christianity, not just speaking about it.

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So you would talk in a foreign language to God, and yet not know for sure what you are saying to him or why you are saying it. Are you certain that "in the Spirit" means this only?

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Labels are a nice way to compartmentalise people, and classification is a good way to disregard someone also. It won't help you at all to hear me pray in the Spirit, you need to do so yourself.

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Is this the "good news"?

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I have saved no-one, nor have you. God gives the increase. I'm sorry the Gospel is poison to you, but to some we are the savour of life, to others the stench of death.

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Maybe your interpretation of the Gospel "Good News"; I interpreted that man may have always existed with God in heaven and will not die. We are actually sons and daughters of God. I say that is "Good News". I am familiar with the preaching of "works". The church leaders, man, determines what "works" qualify for salvation, yet keep raising the standards, placing more burdens on their shoulders, making it impossible to enter the door of mercy. Yet I do appreciate good works. Its not my place to tell you how to worship God.

Best wishes,

St. cheez

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Of course I believe in free will *scratches head*. Of course I don't know it all either, you're twisting my words. I just know where to look for information and it's not my sleep.
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Glad to hear you believe in free will. However, I get a bad feeling about the above interpretation. It sounds like a mind-control interpretation. I also do not feel good about the idea that there is nothing new to know. If God is infinite, unknowable Spirit, how is it possible to not learn anything new? We are constantly learning new things about ourselves and the universe.

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You're welcome to feel uncomfortable, but if you cannot see my point regarding people telling everyone they can find whatever doctrine suits them on the basis that they dreamed it, then there is probably no point in discussing it from any other angle. Just because the Bible tells us everything we need to know does not mean I ever contended that I or anyone else knows it. I'm not sure why this distinction eludes you.

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By the way, do you really know all the reasons why God has life on this earth sleep?

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So we don't go insane ?

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I'm open to the idea, actually. I just think that people should keep these things to themselves, as there is no checksum, no way to prove that it wasn't just your imagination and that you're assuming something that is not true. Also, I'd feel that people running around sharing their dreams are making something of themselves by claiming a direct line to God that could leave others feeling a need to experience the same thing, which in turn leads to all sorts of strange things being 'revealed' to people in their sleep.
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Well, I have actually had things presented in dreams checksumed by the Bible, or rather the Bible backed up the dream. I did learn new things. However, I am almost certain you are ready yet to hear it. I took months or years to deal with it. "Direct line" just implies that others may not believe God is guiding them which is a lack of faith. That is something each person has to deal with on a personal basis. I take responsibility for my own life, thinking and feelings.

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I really don't care to the point of needing readiness - your life has no bearing on the journey of my faith. Either way, like I said, the thing is not to broadcast the fact, assuming it is true, you are only going to make some other people who do not have this experience feel dissatisfied. ( Not me, but a proportion of the people you speak to, is my point )

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One church actually handed me a direct debit form - the only time in four months anyone there spoke to me....
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There is something about this in John which I find interesting. I would like to discuss it later.

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And yet we see lots of examples that God uses man to spread the message. For example, why was Peter sent to Cornelius, insteas of the angel who appeared to Cornelius witnessing to him ?

No reply ?

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I'm sorry too. I'm sorry that you seem unable to comprehend the things I have said, and that your immediate reaction is to oppose everything I say, and everything you presume I say.
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Correct. And, I still see alot work needed in India and China.

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And Australia, and America, and everywhere else in the world. What's the point ?

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By encouraging people who have the Holy Spirit to pray in the Spirit ( which is tongues, and keeps us in Gods love according to Jude 20-21 ), and lots of other things, too many to try to provide a list. I admit most of them come from James and relate to getting out and doing your christianity, not just speaking about it.
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So you would talk in a foreign language to God, and yet not know for sure what you are saying to him or why you are saying it. Are you certain that "in the Spirit" means this only?

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That is what the Bible says

1 Cor 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to people but to God, for no one understands; he is speaking mysteries by the Spirit

14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive. 14:15 What should I do?6 I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praises with my spirit, but I will also sing praises with my mind

Goodness knows what translation this is BTW - it's from www.bible.org.

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Labels are a nice way to compartmentalise people, and classification is a good way to disregard someone also. It won't help you at all to hear me pray in the Spirit, you need to do so yourself.
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Is this the "good news"?

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Is this sarcasm ?

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I have saved no-one, nor have you. God gives the increase. I'm sorry the Gospel is poison to you, but to some we are the savour of life, to others the stench of death.
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Maybe your interpretation of the Gospel "Good News"; I interpreted that man may have always existed with God in heaven and will not die. We are actually sons and daughters of God. I say that is "Good News". I am

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Actually, no. We BECOME sons and daughters of God when we become Christians, we are not in that position before.

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familiar with the preaching of "works". The church leaders, man, determines what "works" qualify for salvation, yet keep raising the standards, placing more burdens on their shoulders, making it impossible to enter the door of mercy. Yet I do appreciate good works. Its not my place to tell you how to worship God.

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Are you proposing that my suggesing God promises all Christians a gift and confirmed this for me by giving me this gift specifically when I asked Him somehow is works ? What is salvation without works then, doing whatever you please and hoping God accepts it ?

St. Cheez

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MeanManOfOz, you have yet to post any of your intrepretations or prophecies. I believe that God gave you these gifts. It just seems to me that you are keeping them to yourself. If the intrepretations and prophecies are important, maybe you should show the world your light.

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I'm sorry, the problem is that you don't get it. 1 Cor 14 sets out how EVERY Christian church should operate these gifts, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Whatever God wants to say to you and your church will come out in these gifts, assuming they are operated. If not, the church is dead and God is silenced. Either way, my light is not hidden, the point of the gifts is use in the church, not writing them down and going out telling people 'this was my prophecy'. It's kinda the same as going out teling everyone every time you remember a dream.

I remember that you stated that the Holy Spirit gave you the gifts of speaking in tongues, interpretation, prophecy. If God had given you prophetic insight, then you would express that prophetic insight. Can you express those prophetic insigts to me, as I would like to hear them? As you stated. "If not, the church is dead and God is silenced." particulary if man does not express those prophetic insights, otherwise how then can God be glorified.

St. Cheez

Oh, MeanManOfOz, I miss understood. I remember that you stated earlier that nothing new was being revealed to man, because it was sealed. I have not heard before this meaning of prophecy, "scriptural encouragement". I was thinking of the old meaning, foreseeing future events. Just show you never know unless you ask.

Sorry for the misunderstanding,

St. Cheez

Good luck,

St. Cheez

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I think you are a prideful and presumptuos Christain which is to cover-up your lack and limitations. You claim the gift of interpretation but then refer to someone else's footnotes to explain verses, to another man who you do not even know. You say that I am not a Christian, because I ask questions and really wish to understand YHSVH.

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The Bible says you are not yet a Christian, I've tried to show you why and how you can remedy the situation. If you really wanted to know God you would have responded as Cornelius did - with joy at the opportunity to serve God.

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Notice that I did not say you were not a Christian just as limited as the rest of us poor humans.

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It's obvious by the way you've latched on to the prophecy/interpretation thing and your comments regarding it that you are both ignorant, and judging by the way you ignore everything I say, willfully so.

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Well, even the Disciplines grew and developed over time.

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Ys, they did, as they werer with Jesus in the flesh, as you are. They became Christians in Acts 2 and while I am sure they continued to experience personal growth, they were also converted and changed totally at that point. Witness the differences between Peter denying the Lord three times and then after conversion he was the one who stood and gave a speech.

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If you can get past your limited earthly personality which some day will be no more, you can probably make great progress as a Christian. You gave your opinion, and I just gave mine.

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I backed mine from the Bible. You should do more than read it, you should try doing what it says, especially the bits that apply to you ( Acts 2:38 springs to mind )

I doubt I'll get past my personality before the Lord returns, nor will you. I'm sorry if the fact that I am blunt has distracted you from the fact that I've spoken words by which you can be saved.

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The Bible says you are not yet a Christian, I've tried to show you why and how you can remedy the situation. If you really wanted to know God you would have responded as Cornelius did - with joy at the opportunity to serve God.

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Your pride and presumption is abnoxious to me. God will judge. Not you.

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It's obvious by the way you've latched on to the prophecy/interpretation thing and your comments regarding it that you are both ignorant, and judging by the way you ignore everything I say, willfully so.

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I am smart. You are ignorant, because you do not know I am smart. Denial is the weakness form of argument. But, you probably won't understand what I mean.

"Willingfully ignoring your words". Man, are you full of yourself, like you are important, but you are just mocking God.

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Ys, they did, as they werer with Jesus in the flesh, as you are. They became Christians in Acts 2 and while I am sure they continued to experience personal growth, they were also converted and changed totally at that point. Witness the differences between Peter denying the Lord three times and then after conversion he was the one who stood and gave a speech.

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You are too much, MeanManOfOz! You presume the disciples were not Christians, before you deemed them "converted". You got alot to learn, but it ain't my place to teach. They may have been under-developed in the beginning, but they were Christians. They followed YHSVH from beginning to end.

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I backed mine from the Bible. You should do more than read it, you should try doing what it says, especially the bits that apply to you ( Acts 2:38 springs to mind )

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Thats right, I have read it, and, have proved that I read it. You got it backwards, MeanManOfOz, you have to work on your inner heart rather than your outward actions. That was YHSVH message to religion of his day, and it applies even today. The original message was love. I say your heart is not right with your fellow man, but time will tell. Life (God) is the teacher. All the disciples went the way of cross except for John, because he knew the way of love.

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I doubt I'll get past my personality before the Lord returns, nor will you. I'm sorry if the fact that I am blunt has distracted you from the fact that I've spoken words by which you can be saved.

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God saves. Not you. You said as much before.

All things originate from God and not from earth. God awakens whoever He desires to awaken from spiritual death. I am not presumptious enough to say how or why He does it. You are probably right that you won't get past your personality, and probably I won't either. The difference between you and me is that I know my personality is in the way. I try not to identify with it. Flesh gives birth to flesh, and spirit gives birth to spirit. God alone saves.

[This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 05, 2001).]

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Your pride and presumption is abnoxious to me. God will judge. Not you.

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I'm sure if you were a Samaritan in Acts 8 you would have said the same to Philip. Or if you were Cornelius in Acts 10 you'd have said the same to Peter. The fact is I do not judge, God HAS judged and I'm just drawing your attention to the fact. What reason would I have for doing this apart from wanting to see you saved ?

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It's obvious by the way you've latched on to the prophecy/interpretation thing and your comments regarding it that you are both ignorant, and judging by the way you ignore everything I say, willfully so.
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I am smart. You are ignorant, because you do not know I am smart. Denial is the weakness form of argument. But, you probably won't understand what I mean.

"Willingfully ignoring your words". Man, are you full of yourself, like you are important, but you are just mocking God.

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Oh, I see. You are smart. Pride comes before a fall, you should try applying this intelligence to actually reading my posts instead of just replying to restate your case which is based on a number of false premises ( that you are a Christian, that prophecy means I know the future, that you need to hear the words of someone who has this gift on the other side of the world when your church, if it was one, would have the gift operating regularly in it's meetings )

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Ys, they did, as they werer with Jesus in the flesh, as you are. They became Christians in Acts 2 and while I am sure they continued to experience personal growth, they were also converted and changed totally at that point. Witness the differences between Peter denying the Lord three times and then after conversion he was the one who stood and gave a speech.
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You are too much, MeanManOfOz! You presume the disciples were not Christians, before you deemed them "converted". You got alot to learn, but it ain't my place to teach. They may have been under-developed in the beginning, but they were Christians. They followed YHSVH from beginning to end.

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Too bad you've not read where Jesus told Peter 'when you are converted, strengthen the brethren'. Or Acts 11 where in explaining what happened in Acts 10, Peter refers to the events in Acts 2 ( their all speaking in tongues ) as 'the beginning'. Or how Jesus spent His entire ministry talking about how the whole point of His coming was to send the Holy Spirit, and that this could not happen until Jesus rose again. 'Without the Spirit of Christ you are not a Christian at all', is how the verse in Romans 8 reads from the Amplified.

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I backed mine from the Bible. You should do more than read it, you should try doing what it says, especially the bits that apply to you ( Acts 2:38 springs to mind )
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Thats right, I have read it, and, have proved that I read it. You got it backwards, MeanManOfOz, you have to work on your inner heart rather than your outward actions. That was YHSVH message to religion of his day,

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Absolutely - the actions are important because they show the state of the heart - show me your faith without works, and I will show you mine by my works.

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and it applies even today. The original message was love. I say your heart is not right with your fellow man, but time will tell. Life (God) is the teacher. All the disciples went the way of cross except for John, because he knew the way of love.

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I'm not sure why you single out John, but love is not mamby pamby talk, nor is it accepting people in sin. Love is telling the truth, as I have told you. If things have got heated, it's because you don't want to hear and prefer to call me names.

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I doubt I'll get past my personality before the Lord returns, nor will you. I'm sorry if the fact that I am blunt has distracted you from the fact that I've spoken words by which you can be saved.
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God saves. Not you. You said as much before.

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Absolutely - so my words only matter if they are what God says. This is the point I wish you'd look in to and consider.

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All things originate from God and not from earth. God awakens whoever He desires to awaken from spiritual death. I am not presumptious enough to say how or why He does it. You are probably right that you won't get past your personality, and probably I won't either. The difference between you and me is that I know my personality is in the way. I try not to identify with it. Flesh gives birth to flesh, and spirit gives birth to spirit. God alone saves.

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Yes, if you'd only let Him. Shall we call it a day, or would you like to yell at me some more ? I note we've moved away from even discussing the Bible, or at least you have.

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The Bible says you are not yet a Christian, I've tried to show you why and how you can remedy the situation. If you really wanted to know God you would have responded as Cornelius did - with joy at the opportunity to serve God.

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The probem is, MeanManOfOz, that I am not Cornelius, and you are not Peter. In fact, you are just another man.

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I'm sure if you were a Samaritan in Acts 8 you would have said the same to Philip. Or if you were Cornelius in Acts 10 you'd have said the same to Peter.

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I am not a Samaritan, and you are not Philip. I am not Cornelius, and you are not Peter.

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The fact is I do not judge, God HAS judged and I'm just drawing your attention to the fact. What reason would I have for doing this apart from wanting to see you saved?

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I notice you left out the part about me willfully ignoring your words as if you were God. You need to get off you "evangelistic" head trip, because you obviously do not know who you are talking to. Only God knows.

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Oh, I see. You are smart. Pride comes before a fall, you should try applying this intelligence to actually reading my posts

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Thats the problem. I have been reading your posts. I am starting to get the impression that you may be part of some cult. To be honest, this is the first time of hear such ideas-out-of-left-field. I have heard Jehovah Witness, Moron, etc. I have read more than a few books. Yes, I am starting to get the impression that your church may have a cult-like mentality.

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instead of just replying to restate your case which is based on a number of false premises ( that you are a Christian

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There you go again, you and your pride and presumption. When a man prays to God, do you imply that you know a man's heart? Well, if you do, then you must be God Almighty Himself to be able to know a man's heart. Yes, I am starting to think that you are one confused puppy. You may need your head corrected as well as your heart concerning your attitude towards other men. When the correction comes, don't try in an extroverted manner to blame others for being corrected. Look at yourself for once. Your confused attitude may be the problem.

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Too bad you've not read where Jesus told Peter 'when you are converted, strengthen the brethren'.

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Give me the chap and verse, and I will look at it.

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Or Acts 11 where in explaining what happened in Acts 10, Peter refers to the events in Acts 2 ( their all speaking in tongues ) as 'the beginning'. Or how Jesus spent His entire ministry talking about how the whole point of His coming was to send the Holy Spirit, and that this could not happen until Jesus rose again. 'Without the Spirit of Christ you are not a Christian at all', is how the verse in Romans 8 reads from the Amplified.

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Well, I do believe in YHSVH and the Holy Spirit. Not sure how you got the impression that I do not believe.

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Absolutely - the actions are important because they show the state of the heart - show me your faith without works, and I will show you mine by my works.

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You do not seem to display much love for your fellow men. Of course, thats my opinion. Your first obstacle is delusion. You are not seeing people as they really are. You definitely seem to act as if you know other people's hearts and minds. You don't and can not, thus delusional.

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I'm not sure why you single out John, but love is not mamby pamby talk,

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Please, clarify the meaning of "mamby pamby"; otherwise, you are talking non-sense.

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nor is it accepting people in sin. Love is telling the truth, as I have told you. If things have got heated, it's because you don't want to hear and prefer to call me names.

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What names?

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Absolutely - so my words only matter if they are what God says. This is the point I wish you'd look in to and consider.

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Until you get off this "you are not a Christian" trip, I definitely will question everything you say. And, the more you talk the worse it gets. This kind of reminds me of that question who is a Jew or not a Jew to be allowed to entered the country Israel. I guess that they were questioning whether a person who claimed to be a Jew was actually a real Jew and should be allowed to enter the country of Israel. Its one of the most disqusting things I have ever heard, but true.

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Yes, if you'd only let Him.

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Same as previous answer.

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Shall we call it a day, or would you like to yell at me some more ?

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I am typing and definitely not in quotes.

Had your ever thought for even one moment that for an anti-Christ to say "Everything originates from God the Father in heaven" or to confess belief in YHSVH is darn near impossible. I think you should call it a day, and pray about all of this. I think I will call it day, as I am making a few typos.

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I note we've moved away from even discussing the Bible, or at least you have.

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You are deluding yourself, if you think we are not. I actually believe you are a Christian, but just abit confused.

St. Cheez

[This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 05, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 05, 2001).]

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The probem is, MeanManOfOz, that I am not Cornelius, and you are not Peter. In fact, you are just another man.

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Funny, that's how Peter described himself to Cornelius....

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I'm sure if you were a Samaritan in Acts 8 you would have said the same to Philip. Or if you were Cornelius in Acts 10 you'd have said the same to Peter.
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I am not a Samaritan, and you are not Philip. I am not Cornelius, and you are not Peter.

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And yet the Gospel is the same. My point ( over your head as always ) is that the Bible provides precendent for people who trust in God, who even trust in Jesus and have been baptised, to be told they are not yet Christians.

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The fact is I do not judge, God HAS judged and I'm just drawing your attention to the fact. What reason would I have for doing this apart from wanting to see you saved?
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I notice you left out the part about me willfully ignoring your words as if you were God. You need to get off you "evangelistic" head trip, because you obviously do not know who you are talking to. Only God knows.

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I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean ????

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Oh, I see. You are smart. Pride comes before a fall, you should try applying this intelligence to actually reading my posts
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Thats the problem. I have been reading your posts. I am starting to get the impression that you may be part of some cult. To be honest, this is the first time of hear such ideas-out-of-left-field. I have heard Jehovah Witness, Moron, etc. I have read more than a few books. Yes, I am starting to get the impression that your church may have a cult-like mentality.

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I see - I guess a pigeon hole like the word 'cult' is a good way to reject what I say without considering it.

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instead of just replying to restate your case which is based on a number of false premises ( that you are a Christian
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There you go again, you and your pride and presumption. When a man prays to God, do you imply that you know a man's heart?

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No, I presume that God knows and provides the manifestation of His Spirit when a persons heart is right.

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Well, if you do, then you must be God Almighty Himself to be able to know a man's heart. Yes, I am starting to think that you are one confused puppy. You may need your head corrected as well as your heart concerning your attitude towards other men. When the correction comes, don't try in an extroverted manner to blame others for being corrected. Look at yourself for once. Your confused attitude may be the problem.

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Did you ask me below where you've been calling me names ???

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Too bad you've not read where Jesus told Peter 'when you are converted, strengthen the brethren'.
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Give me the chap and verse, and I will look at it.

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You don't have a concordance ? It's where Jesus says 'Satan has desired to sift you like wheat'. I don't have time to look it up ( I am at work )

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Or Acts 11 where in explaining what happened in Acts 10, Peter refers to the events in Acts 2 ( their all speaking in tongues ) as 'the beginning'. Or how Jesus spent His entire ministry talking about how the whole point of His coming was to send the Holy Spirit, and that this could not happen until Jesus rose again. 'Without the Spirit of Christ you are not a Christian at all', is how the verse in Romans 8 reads from the Amplified.
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Well, I do believe in YHSVH and the Holy Spirit. Not sure how you got the impression that I do not believe.

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This comment has no bearing on the comment quoted above, it is essentially an attempt to ignore it.

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Absolutely - the actions are important because they show the state of the heart - show me your faith without works, and I will show you mine by my works.
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You do not seem to display much love for your fellow men. Of course, thats my opinion. Your first obstacle is delusion. You are not seeing people as they really are. You definitely seem to act as if you know other people's hearts and minds. You don't and can not, thus delusional.

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I am delusional, love means lying to people about their salvation and you don't ever call me names. I've got it now.....

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I'm not sure why you single out John, but love is not mamby pamby talk,
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Please, clarify the meaning of "mamby pamby"; otherwise, you are talking non-sense.

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Telling you that you are saved when you are not, being too scared of offending people to tell the truth.

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nor is it accepting people in sin. Love is telling the truth, as I have told you. If things have got heated, it's because you don't want to hear and prefer to call me names.
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What names?

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Bwhaahahahahahahaahahaa - you're joking, right ?

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Absolutely - so my words only matter if they are what God says. This is the point I wish you'd look in to and consider.
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Until you get off this "you are not a Christian" trip, I definitely will question everything you say. And, the more you talk the worse it gets. This kind of reminds me of that question who is a Jew or not a Jew to be allowed to entered the country Israel. I guess that they were questioning whether a person who claimed to be a Jew was actually a real Jew and should be allowed to enter the country of Israel. Its one of the most disqusting things I have ever heard, but true.

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A Jew in the Bible is a member of a nation, not a religion. They can't have it both ways ( although I could care less who lives there ). Feel free to attack everything I say, you're obviously not even considering it or what the Bible says in the places I nominate. Tell you what, how about I let you call me irrational, and a cult member one more time and then we'll drop it. OK ??

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Yes, if you'd only let Him.
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Same as previous answer.

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Shall we call it a day, or would you like to yell at me some more ?
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I am typing and definitely not in quotes.

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Had your ever thought for even one moment that for an anti-Christ to say "Everything originates from God the Father in heaven" or to confess belief in YHSVH is darn near impossible. I think you should call it a day, and pray about all of this. I think I will call it day, as I am making a few typos.

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Garbage - even Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, and to say any phrase is possible for any person who can talk. Confession of belief leads to Jesus saying 'why say you love me and do not what I say'. Are you saying people who don't do what Jesus said are Christians ?

By the way, you brought up the term anti-Christ, not me.

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I note we've moved away from even discussing the Bible, or at least you have.
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You are deluding yourself, if you think we are not. I actually believe you are a Christian, but just abit confused.

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I am not deluding anyone, this is another post from you with no reference to the Bible, or logical answers to the comments I made from the scriptures. Take your last shot and we'll call it a day, you're clearly not interested in what I have to say. For this I am sorry, not for my sake but yours.
St. Cheez

[This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 05, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 05, 2001).]

You are not Peter or Paul; you are not the one and true God; you do not know man's hearts or minds, and you are not the Judge either; you are a man much like myself. You are a Christian, and I am a Christian. You can deny my Christianity all you want. I am a Christian. However, I suspect that any group is a possible cult, when they claim that they are the only ones saved, and that everyone outside that group is not really a Christian. Yup, that is my opinion, so right now I am not really open to your message, because of your obnoxious attitude. In particular, I get the impression that you have supplanted some of YHSVH teachings by someone elses authority, which I do not accept. I think to a degree that I understand the teachings of YHSVH particularly those expressed in John. And, I feel you are teaching something contrary. Again, thats my opinion.

And, you appear to me delusional and lacking some social skills. You never tell a self proclaimed Christian that they are not a Christian. I would think its just commonsense, but I suspect that you will be attending someday the school of hardknocks, which is called life. One way or another we all learn. By the way, try India, China or the Middle East. I do not think they will be tolerant at all of your abnoxious and intolerable manners. But, thats commonsense also. Is it not?

My suggestion is to work on your attitude towards others (concentrate on Love) and work on your message (its really inconsistent in some areas if not limited).

St. Cheez

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However, I suspect that any group is a possible cult, when they claim that they are the only ones saved, and that everyone outside that group is not really a Christian. Yup, that is my opinion,

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I can't help but wonder if you ever read my posts - I never remotely insinuated what you claim for me here, nor do I remotely believe it. In fact talking to others here I have said denominational lines are irrelevant, so long as people do what the Bible says. I know of other churches than my own that preach Bible salvation.

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And, you appear to me delusional and lacking some social skills. You never tell a self proclaimed Christian that they are not a Christian.

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My lack of social skills is a given, but 'common sense' is no substitute for the examples in the Bible ( remember Acts 8 and 10, which you refuse to comment on ?). It may be common sense to let you die in sin, but apparently I lack that as well. It seems from your posts that you only read John - it is written prior to the church age, and is therefore not a good choice, nor is any book if you choose to read it and ignore the other 65.

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but I suspect that you will be attending someday the school of hardknocks, which is called life.

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I'm not sure how to respond to this politely so I will not try.

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One way or another we all learn. By the way, try India, China or the Middle East. I do not think they will be tolerant at all of your abnoxious and intolerable manners. But, thats commonsense also. Is it not?

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I'm not sure what your perception is of these places, or why you think I'd consider going there.

Sorry, you can take another shot at me, but please stick to the insults instead of lies and I will let it rest with you having the last word.

Chapter 8-Persecution of Jerusalem church: The apostles stayed and the rest were scattered. Those scattered preached. Samaria had accepted the word of God. The apostles sent Peter and John to Samaria. Peter and John prayed for the people in Samaria, so they would receive the Holy Spirit; the people of Samaria had only been baptised in the name of the Lord YHSVH. Peter and John placed their hands on them, and the Sumerians received the Holy Spirit. Later Philip baptisted the eunuch with water.

Chapter 10-Peter preaches to the Gentiles. The Jerusalem church was a Jewish Church, still part of Judiasm, but they believed YHSVH was the messiah. "you are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection."

Peter was a Jew raised in the Jewish religion. The Jerusalem church still practiced Judiasm, but were considered the first "Christians". Judiasm is not interested in converting people to Judiasm for the above reason. God forced Peter to change his mind and preach to the Gentiles. He was not converted to Christianity; he instead started to preach
the good news of YHVSH to the gentiles.

Here is the part which struck me: All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

What was his name? YHSVH or YHVH-saves, the sacred name of God.

St. Cheez

If Gentiles were "converted", then they were converting to Judiasm, a form of Judiasm which believe the messiash had already come. Present day Jews do not believe that the messiah has yet come.

The conflict was whether Gentiles do all the practices practiced in Judiasm including circumcism. As I understood it, when Gentiles were not required to practice the practices of Judiasm, the Gentile church broke-off from Judiasm, and became known as "Christians."

I have been following this "interesting" dialogue but am not sure of the main point from your previous two posts.

Can you just clarify that for me. Am I correct that you are trying to show that you can be a christian without speaking in tongues?

The Holy Spirit had told me not to respond to MMIO - but I am interested in what you are saying.

Revelator!

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I have been following this "interesting" dialogue but am not sure of the main point from your previous two posts.

Can you just clarify that for me. Am I correct that you are trying to show that you can be a christian without speaking in tongues?

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I'm pleased that I am not the only one who cannot see where Mr. Cheese is coming from. His synopsis of Acts 8 is fairly accurate but ignores the key point - how could baptised believers not have the Holy Spirit, and how did they know both that they didn't, and later that they did ?

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The Holy Spirit had told me not to respond to MMIO - but I am interested in what you are saying.

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Can I ask how the Holy Spirit has communicated this piece of wisdom to you ? Does it equate to you deciding you don't want to talk to someone with whom you do not agree, or does it equate to your disagreeing but being unable to discuss the issues I have raised ?

I get really annoyed that people need to spiritualise every aspect of life, in a way that seems to me superstition. Yes, the Holy Spirit guides us, but to say every decision we make is communication from the Holy Spirit seems to me the ultimate in insecurity. I speak from experience, my father is a Christian in a church that talks like this, and it really is amazing ( 'the Holy Spirit told me you'd like to play guitar in my home group' ( I couldn't due to other commitments ) or 'the Holy Spirit told me to enter Tattslotto so I can get enough money to start a church' ( if this were so, why has he still not won ??? )). It's this sort of thing that makes it embarrassing to tell people I am a Christian without having to provide all sorts of caveats so I don't get lumped in with powerless religion, or people who simply act as if they have lost all reason or contact with anything related to reality. The God of the Bible is not off with the fairies, anymore than He is absent from the lives of His people.

I guess you won't reply as the Holy Spirit has 'revealed' to you not to. I am curious, on what level would the Holy Spirit desire you not to talk to someone hell bent on discussing the Bible ? Is it

a/ because I am right and the Holy Spirit doesn't want you to be saved, or

b/ I am wrong and the Holy Spirit doesn't want me to be saved ( or corrected if you prescribe to the idea that someone can be totally wrong about what God offers them and desires of them, but be saved because God doesn't really care much what we do so long as we accept others ).

Either way, it seems like a cop out to me.

As far as I know, the Bible does not state that a person must speak in tongues to be considered saved to be considered a real Christian. I think that even Paul gave his opinion somewhere on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I would have to do a search.

Even so, just after the resurrection, Peter spoke before the sanhedrin, spoke the language of their time and was said to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Of course, he was in court, and was arguing his case to the elders, and the elders understood what he was saying.

Yup, I guess thats my conclusion. You can be a Christian who without speaking in tongues. From my owe experience, very few Christians speak in tongues except in Evangelical churches. Usually the congregation would raise their hands and suddenly someone or a few would start speaking in tongues. Of course, no one knew for sure what the others were saying. Even then I do not remember a heavy emphasis placed on it. In fact, they allowed me into their church, even though I did not speak in tongues. It was never a condition.

Here is the part in Chap 10 which meant alot to me: All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." And, it is consistent with what I learned from John.

I started getting some warning signals last night. And, I know that you are guided by the Holy Spirit. Personally I appreciate what you have been doing and are doing. I wish I could say the same for myself.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

[This message has been edited by Saint Cheez (edited July 06, 2001).]

I remembered something last night. The sacred name of God is YHVH. The messiash's name was YHSVH, which means YHVH saves. The difference in the two names is one letter "S". In the Hebrew alphabet, "S" is Shim, or Fire.

Best wishes,

St. Cheez

I just wanted to know because what you said in the post I refered to before did not seem to follow the previous dialogue.

Thanks.

Revelator!

I therefore conclude that you are a gutless wimp, too scared to discuss your beliefs with someone who disagrees, because you cannot or you are keen to hide your light under a bushel. Either way it is obvious you have more time for the voices in your head than the Bible and for this I am truly sorry.

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Revelator - I assume from the lack of reply that the spirit you are of wants me to die

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MeanMan, this is totally false and unfair statement to make. You really need to pray about these thoughts and feelings you are having.

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I therefore conclude that you are a gutless wimp, too scared to discuss your beliefs with someone who disagrees, because you cannot or you are keen to hide your light under a bushel. Either way it is obvious you have more time for the voices in your head than the Bible and for this I am truly sorry.

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This is totally out of line. Seriously, MeanMan, why do you believe you are a Christian? You do not talk like one. You need love in your heart.

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MeanMan, this is totally false and unfair statement to make. You really need to pray about these thoughts and feelings you are having.

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If he has the Holy Spirit, if I am in error and desire to discuss the Bible, then if the Holy Spirit has told him not to talk to me, the Holy Spirit wants me to be wrong, wants me to do the wrong thing. I don't need any thoughts or feelings to see this is so. Do you believe the Holy Spirit has told him this ? If so, why has the Holy Spirit told you differently ?

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I therefore conclude that you are a gutless wimp, too scared to discuss your beliefs with someone who disagrees, because you cannot or you are keen to hide your light under a bushel. Either way it is obvious you have more time for the voices in your head than the Bible and for this I am truly sorry.
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This is totally out of line. Seriously, MeanMan, why do you believe you are a Christian? You do not talk like one. You need love in your heart.

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I bet they said the same thing about Jesus when he made a whip and cleared the temple. I admit I speak largely due to my own frustrations - frustration at not being able to tell people I am a Christian without working hard to distance myself from people like Revelator, people who think God talks to them, and tells them who to talk to and who not to talk to. The Bible doesn't back that up, it doesn't back up the position of ignoring someone wanting to discuss salvation, it opposes his position on every level. I think he's ignoring me because he can't back up his position from the Bible and is scared about what that means. I think it's pathetic, and I find it embarassing that people I work with will read his comments and think that is what I stand for. I'm sorry that you think it's OK to tell me I am wrong, but a heinous sin when I tell other people they are wrong from the Bible. I've not yet stooped to telling someone they are demon possessed as a way to avoid answering what they have said. I've far and away posted the most scripture on these threads. I am a reasonable person, I have a reasonable number of friends. I know how to get along with people. Do you think I like to fight ? Have you stopped to think for a moment why I'd spend an hour a day responding to you, pointing out what the Bible says and trying to get you to listen ? I think that shows I have love in my heart, even if I'm not a warm, marshmallowy sort of person who works hard to always be polite and never offend. I'm happy to offend you if it just might shock you into trusting the Bible instead of whatever preacher has told you the things he earnestly believes in error. Who knows, once you became a Christian, you might preach to him and resolve the situation for both of you.

"Okay...this is getting out of hand now and I apologize for not getting involved sooner.
I understand the need and right of each person to express opinions and so on, but the individual attacks is neither warranted nor acceptable. If this continues, I will take action. Heated arguments and difference of opinions are expected, degrading comments and personal attacks are not. I'm not picking on any one person here, so please don't get that impression. There has been an overall increase in this type of activity as of late.

We're all in here to discuss Christian issues, not to bash each other for our beliefs. There should be no personal intolerance for others who may be ignorant of issues that you are learned of. Just because you have told 5,000 people the same thing doesn't mean that the 5,001'st person should be treated poorly. If you feel that there is a need, take it somewhere else. Also, just because you disagree with a person does not mean you have the right to smack-talk them, call them names, or make personality judgements. Attacking the issue is fine...attacking the person is not.

The bottom line is that there is NO justification IN THESE boards for personal bashing.

I'm not going to argue about this either.

-Krylar"

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