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Moral person = Immoral entertainment – warsong




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The most moral person can help make the best immoral games, movies, songs, etc.

Since a very moral person knows what right then they also know what is wrong. An average person see everything ok and does not see it what is wrong of right clearly. If you take what is right like pacifism and reverse it then you get a killing machine.

Itís like having ying and yang. Just like Lucifer being the best to becoming the worst.

I am not saying that you will be corrupt if you think negative, but that you can take advantage by being able to show the worse case scenario to others action. Even games that give people what they want in their dark intention like GTA to do bad things. Or if you know an issue well on both sides you can argue about it better like South Park people do sometimes, which I think they can be proven wrong in their methods and some of their views.

People just have to take time to think about it, so it seems.

Max

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I don't think a moral person would knowingly attribute to the construction of a purely immoral game. I think that he would try his hardest to keep it civil. I also don't totally understand what you are asking/stating. Sorry.
Max

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CobraA1

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Huh? I'm not quite sure I get your point / question, warsong.

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
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[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited November 09, 2004).]

ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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um, from my taking is that the best person can become the worst because he knows more about what is wrong.
which, I'd have to say is a falsity. but, I don't really know what your saying either, so I'm not gonna make any points now.

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bennythebear

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From: kentucky,usa
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i think you're leaving out some details to your argument, because no one seems to be understanding what exactly you were trying to get accross...? but i also don't believe a Christian would knowingly help in an immoral game, or immoral anything for that matter. i'm not saying it has to be a "Christian" game or movie, but it won't be full of sex, drugs, and pure violence. which also makes me want to ask something...shouldn't it bother people to play games where you snipe people and shoot them up, especially if you're laughing about it...peopl e are way too desensitised to all of it(including myself).

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

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Simon_Templar

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From: Eau Claire, WI USA
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a good person can do and produce bad things, but usualy its the result of poor understanding on their part.

It is true as well that if a person comes to God and sees the truth and then turns from it they will likely be worse off than your average person. Many average people believe that they should try to be good, even if they don't believe in Jesus, or even God, but when a person has known the truth and then turned their back on it they no longer have any reason to even try to be good.

I'm not sure really what warsong was going for with this either

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

bennythebear

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Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
i agree with you simon. if someone will turn their back on God, and they know they're going to hell but they don't care, why would they care about anything? that's prob'ly where some of the evilest people in the world have come from, those who know the truth but refuse to enter in, and hinder thoughs that would enter in...anyways.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

Nomad
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The original post seems to relate to two things I've thought of in the past, as well.

1) If you know what's right, and you accept the responsibility to do what's right, you have to be truly evil to go ahead and do what's wrong anyway. Paul discussed this is one of his letters. Romans 3:19-20 reads in NCV, "We know that the law's commands are for those who have the law. This stops all excuses and brings the whole world under God's judgment, because no one can be made right with God by following the law. The law only shows us our sin." The rest of the chapter goes on to reminds us, though, that it is only in Christ that we are made right with God. Romans 3:23-24 reads, "All have sinned and are not good enough for God's glory, and all need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ." Once you've accepted Christ, the Holy Spirit works in you to promote Christ-like conduct. Those who accept Christ, then turn away from Christ-like conduct, really call into question whether they really accepted Christ to begin with.

2) As for why people who do turn away from the truth seem particularly capable of evil, this might compare well with why the stereotypical teenagers act up the way they do. They feel as though they have to impress those around them with some newfound identity, perhaps. That is, those turning away may have a tendency to do something particularly drastic just to demonstrate that they have, indeed, turned away.

To summarize, the first thought is that it is clear we need Christ. The second thought, while I'll never claim expertise in psychology or anything, regards that people who turn away might do so with a vengeance.

Brandon

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From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
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Yeah I know I'm off topic, but I've learned that people who once believed and have turned away do so simply because they don't want to believe. They have enough evidence for God being there. They have just chosen to have faith that He isn't there. Which actually takes more faith than believing in Him. Most of the time, there is no point in debating with such a person, because they don't care about the truth, they just want to win the argument and continue in thier rebellion.

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If you let your faith go cold enough, there might come a point where you don't want to turn back to God. That would be tragic. -- Quote from Keith Green

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[This message has been edited by brandon (edited November 09, 2004).]

joeG

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Disclaimer, this may or may not be Warsong's question, but due to the open-endedness of the topic I'll insert a snapshot of where I'm at in relation to games and Christianity, as I believe it is relevant.

Question rephrased:
As a Christian would there be projects that you would have to turn down because of who you are in Christ?

That's something that I've thought about myself; with the answer to the above question being found in how I would answer "Are games ammoral or not?" (The if you can't realize games are just fiction then something screwy is going on in your head argument) If they are ammoral then I could take any project (GTA: San Andreas, Doom[1,2,3], Bloodrayne, Postal, etc...). If they are moral however, then it becomes a much more difficult decision of choosing who I want to work with/for. Let's say if I sign on with a company that was doing an air-combat simulation. Two years later it is the general concensus of the team that the next project should be some game where the character goes around doing ritual sacrifices to clearly demonic entities, raping females at will and burning down churches. That would stink if there was a Christian who believed games are not ammoral. Would that Christian resign and look for other opportunities or would he/she stick with the team for the next project.

I think that our freedom in Christ helps shed some light on the question. Galatians 5:16 says But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. Our attempts to codify what is safe and what is not safe will, many a time, prove to be just another form of law-living. Walking by the Spirit begins with us acknowledging that we are unable to please Him through our own power. So even though playing Halo (with all its violence) with your buds can be viewed as an egregious sin by most, the Spirit can be leading you to use it as an opportunity for the furtherance of His kingdom. But the warning of Galatians 5:13 still remains, you may have started with your freedom in Christ but succumbing to the flesh (your will still ruin your God-given opportunity to be used by Him.

The post is just a rough draft and not final. Please feel free to challenge it and/or ask for clarifications.

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joeG

Simon_Templar

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Joe, I think your post brings up a topic on which christians often fail through lack of balanced understanding. When I speak of balance I don't mean it in some misty eastern sense of balancing opposing forces.. but rather in balancing two truths so that in following one, you don't neglect the other.

I have heard many people use the freedom we have in Christ as an excuse not to worry about either directly breaking God's teachings to us, or not to worry about partaking in unrighteousness in other forms. This is a very bad teaching. I don't mean to condemn what you had to say joe because I understand where your coming from, but we need to be very careful about justifing bad behavior with the "freedom of Christ". The verse you quoted about walking in the spirit makes us free is always used by people who make this argument, and its true.. but they fail to understand something very critical about this verse. If you live a life of indulging your flesh, you are not walking by the spirit. It is a common trait among people who subscribe to this teaching that they do not fear God. That is a dangerous and foolish attitude.

That is one truth.. the other truth that we must also understand is that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Christianity isn't about the rules. The rules are important and they are good, but they are only guides, steps on the journey.. not the end itself.
The ultimate end of the christian life is to be transformed into what God desires us to be, the likeness of Christ. He wants us to be humble, kind, merciful, poor in spirit, truthful, peacemakers etc. The way we become those things is by practice. God gives us work to do, and here's one of the tricky parts, He gives us work, which ultimately we are incapable of doing.. so he will do it through us, but we still have to choose to do it, or rather choose to step out and let Him do it through us.
In practice there will always be failures, so really the failures aren't important, because its the end result that matters. As long as you get up and continue on, falling down matters very little.

On the topic of games and books and the like, I've often been on the more 'controversial' side of things. The reason is that I often think Christians get upset about the wrong things and focus on the wrong things. Christians will have a huge rally to burn pokemon dolls and cards, but not bat an eye about sending their kids to be indoctrinated in a humanist school system. Ive known christians who were outraged by the violent FPS game, but yet didn't have a problem voting for abortion, and even partial birth abortion.

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

Brandon

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Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
On the topic of games and books and the like, I've often been on the more 'controversial' side of things. The reason is that I often think Christians get upset about the wrong things and focus on the wrong things. Christians will have a huge rally to burn pokemon dolls and cards, but not bat an eye about sending their kids to be indoctrinated in a humanist school system. Ive known christians who were outraged by the violent FPS game, but yet didn't have a problem voting for abortion, and even partial birth abortion.

Yeah I agree there. I think that many of us Christians should stop pointing the finger at sinners and instead point the sinners attention to Jesus Christ, the only one who can save them. I too know of some people who would burn pokemon cards, and (as I've heard), put rock CD's in microwaves, but support abortion and even hate Jews, it comes down to pride. And that's not what the Gospel is about. Remember what Paul says about boasting. None of us can, because salvation comes from Jesus Christ, and not from our legalisms. I don't mean to get so harsh, but abortion is just a heated topic of mine. And partial birth abortion... Lord have mercy.

But to get back on topic. Warsong I think that I see what you mean. If someone is moral then they'll probably know what the opposite of God's standards are, and how to bring them out more... than say someone who is blinded. This is because the moral person has a better view of reality. I think a moral person, or better yet, a follower of Christ (remember many are moral but lost), should put thier effort into bringing glory to the Lord, instead of glorifying the work of the devil.


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If you let your faith go cold enough, there might come a point where you don't want to turn back to God. That would be tragic. -- Quote from Keith Green

3rd Day Studios

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited November 10, 2004).]

Klumsy

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another awesome post simon.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
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goop2

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quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Itís like having ying and yang. Just like Lucifer being the best to becoming the worst.

Its Yin and Yang

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Skynes
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From: Belfast, N Ireland
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From reading the post I got this out of it.

As Christians we understand good. We also understand evil BETTER than someone who is evil. We can use this knowledge to our advantage by showing evil in a truer sense along with the consequences of it.

E.g. if a Christian made a GTA style game (in the freedom of movement sense, not story). You could allow your character to rob banks OR do good deeds and show the consequences of both sets of actions, kinda like that game Black n White.

Klumsy

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Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
as a christian we are to be swred and aware of the evil techniques of our adversaries, but in it to be innocent as doves.

also we are not to tempt another to sin, and i think making a GTA kind of game _could_ tempt others to sin , in fact i'd think most players would at least experiment if not always do the naughty thing

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz