Hey Folks, I'm in some dire need of help. I don't know exactly how to word this, so please bare with me.

So my problem is this: I don't understand how grace works. By that I mean, I understand that I'm saved by grace, not by works. However, if I'm saved by grace, not works, then why do works? Now I understand that the answer appears to be that the Holy Spirit will flow through me to bring good works out instead of sin, but if that's the case, does this mean that these works will be an immediate change (ex. going from 60-1 on the sin scale immediately), or will it be a process (ex. with these rusty brakes I have, I'll gradually slow down from 60-1 over time)?

This problem especially arises, I believe, due at least in part to an overly-analytical way of thinking. Therefore, I will wonder if thing's are sins that some other people wouldn't even give a second thought to. As a result of this, I feel bound. Because if I go and sin, I feel I'm falling short of God's standard and kind of "spitting" on the kindness Jesus has shown me. But if I try to do the right thing, I feel I'm attempting to follow the law, which is obviously something Galatians warns against. So this leaves me trapped between doing the "right" thing and the "wrong" thing, which leaves me feeling like either way, I have failed God miserably.

Can anyone shed some light on my situation?????!!!!

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O Praise Christ, O Praise Christ, He Is Holy, He Is Holy - O Praise Him

We're standing on the shores of forever - where stars are shining brighter than before. And peace is the Prince of the moment. Our hearts are so weary from the war.

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if I'm saved by grace, not works, then why do works?

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You bring up a very good question.

James 2:26

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As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

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The further context of this scripture is this, I think this explains it well:

James 2:14-26

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14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[b] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

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Actions speak louder than words. If you have faith in the Lord then it will reflect in how you express yourself, actions being the most influential expression.

It is important to note that these actions are not a requirement of entering into heaven. Saying so makes it seem as if we earn our way into heaven. Instead we are saved by the grace of God and if we truly have faith in him then our words and actions will reflect it.

Actions follow if you truly believe and choose something. For example, if I truly love my wife then I will show it in actions. If I am not showing it in actions then one would question whether or not I love my wife.

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This problem especially arises, I believe, due at least in part to an overly-analytical way of thinking.

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I don't think this in and of itself is bad. I also am a very analytical and logical person. I like to evaluate things using logic and reason and I try to dig deep into the lessons the Lord has given us.

My best answer is do the right thing because that is the most beneficial to everyone involved, including you. The Lord has given us his word on how to live, his wisdom is meant to help us succeed. Have faith in his commands though don't have blind faith. All of his lessons you can evaluate in a logical way and they make full sense. They are ways to succeed in the presented situation in a way that honors the Lord and that benefits us.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

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Originally posted by legaianlight:
DISCLAIMER: I will not be persuaded from the standpoint that I am saved wholly by grace, so this post is not to be a place to try to do so.

Hey Folks, I'm in some dire need of help. I don't know exactly how to word this, so please bare with me.

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Hi, I don't understand who would persuade you? Anyway I try to answer the best I can.

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Originally posted by legaianlight:

So my problem is this: I don't understand how grace works. By that I mean, I understand that I'm saved by grace, not by works. However, if I'm saved by grace, not works, then why do works? Now I understand that the answer appears to be that the Holy Spirit will flow through me to bring good works out instead of sin, but if that's the case, does this mean that these works will be an immediate change (ex. going from 60-1 on the sin scale immediately), or will it be a process (ex. with these rusty brakes I have, I'll gradually slow down from 60-1 over time)?

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When we grow there will be less sin in our life but we cannot never fully stop from sinning. But we learn to seperate evil from good and choose the better (good, God, Holy) instead of bad. That will allow us to become more fruitful when there is less sin in our life. But the main thing is that it's all God's grace, no one can't do anything without God.
So it's the work of Holy spirit in us thanks to God's grace and the good works are more of an automation when we have patience and love when we mature in spirit by God's word (etc).

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Originally posted by legaianlight:

This problem especially arises, I believe, due at least in part to an overly-analytical way of thinking. Therefore, I will wonder if thing's are sins that some other people wouldn't even give a second thought to. As a result of this, I feel bound. Because if I go and sin, I feel I'm falling short of God's standard and kind of "spitting" on the kindness Jesus has shown me.

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Well there certainly are sins I wont want to do (not that I want to sin at all) but thanks to God for His grace, I can give thanks to Him and praise Him, because He doesn't ask anything else from us but to give honor to Him. Jesus' blood really has the power to wash away all sins once and for all and God's grace is everlasting.

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Originally posted by legaianlight:

But if I try to do the right thing, I feel I'm attempting to follow the law, which is obviously something Galatians warns against. So this leaves me trapped between doing the "right" thing and the "wrong" thing, which leaves me feeling like either way, I have failed God miserably.

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One thing we have to notice about Galatians is that they tried to obey the law given to Isreal (in the OT) which Jesus fulfilled. And now that Jesus fulfilled the law God made new coveant with us so that we wont have to be like Jews and Galatians but it's all God's grace.
You are right if you try to keep the law then you will fail so just trust in the finished work of Jesus who did it for you.

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Originally posted by legaianlight:

Can anyone shed some light on my situation?????!!!!

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I hope so brother.

Good post there (in my opinion) Matt.

[This message has been edited by jari (edited October 30, 2007).]

God and Jesus did us all a favor by offering salvation---all you have to do is ask for it and it is yours---I have never seen anything that tells me it can be revoked so, once you are saved, you are saved!

Works can't do it, none of us can be holy enough--but the kicker is that ISN'T the point behind doing good---you do good to express your admiration and love for God and what he has done, which in turn acts like a beacon of light to show other people what he has done for them---by doing good and living good in your life you acting as a billboard for God---a lot of people don't realize that and claim Christianity one day out of the week and deny God the rest of the week with selfish/evil behavior---the world sees this and assumes that all Christians are phony which makes the job of those of us truly into it that much more important----so doing good works now not only acts as a billboard for God but also a billboard showing that there is true, sincere Jesus Freaks out there and that Christianity isn't always the phony thing some people have made it to be---so it is important but not required for salvation.

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Our life as a Christian is a daily walk and a continual desire to become more Christ-like. We are saved by grace, in that we truly deserve death and do not deserve to be in the presence of God. God can only be in the presence of holiness, something we, as fallen humans, can not possibly attain. That is what Christ has done for us. Christ, who is sinless and Holy, took our yuckiness and sins upon Himself. By accepting Christ as the risen and living Savior, God now sees Christ in us. That is, when we die and stand before God, He will see His son, Jesus Christ in us. That is the grace we have received.

We simply need to accept Christ to be led into His Kingdom.

So where does works come in? As a believer, I feel there will be a desire to live for the glory and Kingdom of God. I think if we just sit on that grace mentioned above and do nothing else, we are slapping God in the face. Instead, we will begin to find ways to serve and to live for His glory. It will become a natual desire to WANT to serve and WANT to be more like Christ.

Your analytical mind has put you in a dilemma. You are not the only one to experience these same thoughts. Personally, I don't think it's wrong to "try to do the right thing". If this thought is making you feel like you are forcing yourself, then I would pray and ask for that feeling to go away. That said, sometimes feeling forced can be a positive, too. This may sometimes come as a strong conviction to "do the right thing." Think about this. You are in a situation where you want to do one thing you know is not right and another which you know is the right thing. You feel a conviction to do what is right, but you really want to do the other. Over analyzing can make you end up just doing nothing as you feel guilty either way. Free yourself to recognize the choice you have been given and the freedom to choose. You know what, the first time or the first 100 times may feel forced. But that 101st time comes natural and suddenly, it becomes a normal and natural part of your life.

Remember, on the cross. There were two criminals. One accepted Christ. The other did not. The one who recognized Christ for who He is was told by Jesus, "today I will see you in Paradise." He did not even have time to perform much of any work. Or did he? His heart desire led him to tell the other criminal about Christ. Today, we still look at that man's life on the cross. How he turned over his life to Christ while taking his last and final breaths. Who knows how many countless people have been touched by this one man's life?

Which brings up a final point about works. I really can't stand when people think works means you need to be up front in church, or seen by people, or whatever. Works can be simply interceding for others through prayer. It can go completely unnoticed by others. And it really doesn't matter. Doing works is really between you, God and your heart. What really matters is where your heart is. Are you doing works so man can see? Or because you love Christ and want to live for Him?

Well, this took me awhile to write and I see others have now written other comments. Good discussion.

I want to do the right thing because I love Jesus.
I don't want to do the right thing because it feels like I'm being bound beyond that of anyone else. Allow me to explain.
I understand that God doesn't want me to have pre-marital sex, kill people, lust, curse, practice witchcraft, steal, etc. That type of stuff, while I don't mean to say I've conquered those, aren't the direct issue. The problem arises, for the most part, when I take something like "don't kill," for example. I might see that and start thinking "well, if i shouldn't kill, i shouldn't play first-person shooter, rts', or many rpg's. But wait, aren't I also killing in missile command? What about tyrrian, space invaders, or ratchet deadlocked?" So I look around at people who play such games and I want to play them, too, because they are fun and I know I like them. But because I feel that this is killing, I feel bad if I play them, and feel angry because I don't feel that I'm allowed to do the same things other people do. This doesn't stop there, though. Take stealing. Copyright infringement is stealing. So I can't look at jokes online, even clean ones. I can't use guitar tabs because, for the most part, thats infringement. Or witchcraft. I really enjoy rpg's, but I don't feel I can play them because of the spells in them. Or perhaps I shouldn't race in that level on Gran Turismo 4 because it has a yin-yang in it's logo (yin-yangs tie into some eastern religions). Or damage the temple of the Holy Spirit. I supposedly have an allergy to dairy, though the effects seem to be few and far between. But even so, I wonder if even a little dairy qualifies as damaging the temple of the Holy Spirit. And if i defile the temple, I'll be destroyed also. And thus I'm left feeling trapped, bound, imprisoned by the God who loves me, while his other children run around doing the things I long to do.

And therein lies my dilemma. I feel trapped. Help!!!

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O Praise Christ, O Praise Christ, He Is Holy, He Is Holy - O Praise Him

We're standing on the shores of forever - where stars are shining brighter than before. And peace is the Prince of the moment. Our hearts are so weary from the war.

What I'm saying is that the greatest commandment is love and stealing is not, and playing games 24/7 (too much) doesnt sound something you can do for God's glory and watching violence is not what God wants us to watch but to think of Holy things instead. But in the end its matter of where your heart is fixed and what you love. If you fill your mind with violence there's not going to be anything else in your mind, but no matter what you think, if you have Jesus in your heart and mind when you do it then darkness cannot overcome you (so to speak).

I wish that you would not play violent games but im not saying this as a rule for you but want to encourage to do everything in prayer not thinking about things on earth but in heaven and seeking God's kingdom first then while still at here may God bless and give what is good for you.
I have background of playing a lot of different kind of games but because God has shown me how much better its to read His word, I wish not to exchange Bible to games and yet I can still play games but I just need to be careful or they will take my time too much.

May God bless you! Let's not fill our heart with anything evil but ask God to fill us with His holy spirit.

I would say pray and thank God for this choice. That He has given you the freedom to choose. Then pray for a clear conscience over whatever decision comes out. If you feel convicted of playing a particular game, then don't play it. My feeling is, there are SO many other options out there, I'll enjoy something else rather than wondering "am I doing the right thing?"

At this point, based on what you are saying, you feel convicted of playing certain games. Or...at least you appear unsure of what to do. When I am unsure, I find the best thing to do is to make no decision but pray. What this means for your situation is to not play those games, and to not worry about not playing them either. Eventually, through prayer, I find a peace to one or the other and I pray you will too.

And not just what I want to do for him but what he wants me to do for him.

You know, in Heaven, what can you give that's not already there? So, here on the earth, it's an opportunity for us to do all sorts of stuff for our friend who laid down his life for us. We're laying down our lives for him.

Doing good things for people is awesome. Also, one thing that we Christians can do that nobody else can do is praise God. It's a sacrifice of praise. In heaven, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. And all of us Christians will praise him. Praise will just come out of us. But now, here on the earth, it's the only time we'll have in all of eternity to praise him by faith. He inhabits the praises of his children.

When I praise God, I'm unstoppable. I'll do nice things for people and just be very glad to do it. But when I don't praise God, I'm just doing nice things because I'm supposed to. And I'm mad at traffic and everybody.

We know that faith without deeds is dead. And you might also agree that deeds with faith is awesome, and deeds with more faith is more awesome.

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Originally posted by legaianlight:
... if I'm saved by grace, not works, then why do works?

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Good works are the evidence of genuine salvation having taken place. To put it another way, if you were to plant a healthy apple tree, then when that tree gets mature, you would expect to see good apples, right? It is the same with salvation by grace. God plants a healthy salvation within you, and once that salvation begins to mature, the fruit (instead of good apples) is good works.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"