I was looking forward to the Golden Compass, and this rather bummed me out.
I'm still going to see it (Illegal Downloads, ftw. If men in black suits ask, I didn't say that.)

Apparently it's an Anti-Narnia. The books more than the movie.
The author, Philip Pullman, rather vehemently opposes religion and in his opinion, the alleged God. In the story, apparently, the children kill God.
Screw that.

As a big fan of Fantasy, I'm quite disappointed. Not only was it potentially good fantasy gone sour with an unfavorable disposition splayed across its pages, I wonder what this will do with the general christian populace's view to fantasy in general.
To say the least, the church was less than accepting of Harry Potter, which I found little to nothing wrong with it.

Fantasy has so much potential for creating symbolisms and allegories for different truths we see in life. It is such a powerful medium we could use to tell our stories.

Do you think this would salt the earth of Fantasy stories for many Christians if it became popular?

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Q.E.D.

Practically, it likely will do as you fear.

I used to attend a Presbyterian church (PCA not PCUSA) and even in that "conservative" congregation, people were jumping all over the bandwagon that "Harry Potter is evul (spelling intentional)" until the senior pastor actually took the time to read the first book in the series and admonished them to chill. This might be what it takes with future excursions into fantasy. I recall that Narnia also had such troubles at first.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

As for what it would do to the church's view of fantasy: It really can't get any worse in some circles(attackers of harry potter, d&d, etc.), and the rest will see it as just another story.

On the crazy flip-side.. Philip Pullman has done what we all should do. He wrote something that undertones his own belief's and influenced the world instead of sitting around waiting to read someone else's work.

So, be encouraged to go out and write a book/movie/game and Mr. Pullman's book will become a thing of the past--kind of like the Davinci Code.

Where are the Tolkens and Lewis' of our day? hmm.

God Bless!

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Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited October 26, 2007).]

quote:

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Originally posted by samw3:
Where are the Tolkens and Lewis' of our day? hmm.

God Bless!

---

Possibly reading this forum. (hint, hint, hint) At ALL y'all, not just someone in this thread.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Personally, I'm not as much sad as I am mad...

If I'm wrong on ANY of that, please correct me... but thats how I see it right now...

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yeah, im a little crazy
Check out my crazy sig that I made:

It was just sortof a huge letdown at the end of the book. I think it was two years ago that I checked the other books out of the library and read those, wanting to see where Pullman was going with the book, to see what his conclusion was.

That was an even greater disappointment.

The basic tenant of the book is that free choice is what the church calls sin. The church tries to control you, and so anything involving free choice is bad (sin). He seems to take a neo-Buddhist view of the world, in that everything is tending back to its universal Oneness from its precreated state.

It says in the Snopes article that the children kill God -- that's not entirely how it happens, but it's pretty close. Essentially, the being that formed first was "God" (called the Authority), and he's only in charge because he formed first (apparently accidentally). He is old, decrepit, weak, and when some rebelling angels put him out to die, he is blown away by a gust of wind. The right-hand-man who is trying to usurp the throne is called Metatron, and is apparently Enoch in is post-ascended state or something. He's beefy and tough and effectively wears the pants around the heavenly realms. He's the one that the children (and some of the adults) fight against in the end, and he's eventually tackled into the void by two of the adults who are assisting the children.

The whole key to the plot is that the main girl (Lyra) needs to commit this sin in order to restore the world, because she's prophesied to be the second Eve. Eve's "fall" was what gave us our freedom, and so Lyra needs to renew it or something. It's a bit odd that the whole plot of the book is that a 12 year old girl needs to have sex with a 12 year old boy in order to save the universe, and in the process they upset the entire atrocity of the church and bring unparalleled happiness to countless throngs of people. Yup. You read that right.

But none of that happens until the later books -- the first book is insanely engaging, particularly with the wonderfully enchanting way that Pullman portrays an alternate steamtech-ish universe where electricity isn't understood and is only very scarce use.

Very interesting stuff.

Anyways, yeah. This book is pretty brash -- it doesn't mince words or hide what the author thinks of church, sin, and God. The message of the book is targeted at children as its primary audience -- it's laser-guided propaganda.

Sam, I think your post was an refreshingly healthy response to the situation.

--clint

Edit: Fixed some details about Metatron.

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited October 26, 2007).]

quote:

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Metatron

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Isn't that Megatron's twin brother? How do the transformers fit into this story???? I'm sooo confused!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by HanClinto:
My wife picked this book up a few years ago off of the bookstore shelf, flipped through it, thought it looked interesting, and bought it. The first book in particular is a very enchanting world, but in the last 5-10 pages it just *really* goes downhill, including a section of Genesis that was rewritten to fit Pullman's fantasy alternate-universe.

It was just sortof a huge letdown at the end of the book. I think it was two years ago that I checked the other books out of the library and read those, wanting to see where Pullman was going with the book, to see what his conclusion was.

That was an even greater disappointment.

The basic tenant of the book is that free choice is what the church calls sin. The church tries to control you, and so anything involving free choice is bad (sin). He seems to take a neo-Buddhist view of the world, in that everything is tending back to its universal Oneness from its precreated state.

It says in the Snopes article that the children kill God -- that's not entirely how it happens, but it's pretty close. Essentially, the being that formed first was "God" (called the Authority), and he's only in charge because he formed first (apparently accidentally). He is old, decrepit, weak, and when some rebelling angels put him out to die, he is blown away by a gust of wind. The right-hand-man who is trying to usurp the thrown is called Metatron, and is apparently Enoch in is post-ascended state or something. He's beefy and tough and effectively wears the pants around the heavenly realms. He's the one that the children (and some of the adults) fight against in the end, and he's eventually tackled into the void by two of the adults who are assisting the children.

The whole key to the plot is that the main girl (Lyra) needs to commit this sin in order to restore the world, because she's prophesied to be the second Eve. Eve's "fall" was what gave us our freedom, and so Lyra needs to renew it or something. It's a bit odd that the whole plot of the book is that a 12 year old girl needs to have sex with a 12 year old boy in order to save the universe, and in the process they upset the entire atrocity of the church and bring unparalleled happiness to countless throngs of people. Yup. You read that right.

But none of that happens until the later books -- the first book is insanely engaging, particularly with the wonderfully enchanting way that Pullman portrays an alternate steamtech-ish universe where electricity isn't understood and is only very scarce use.

Very interesting stuff.

Anyways, yeah. This book is pretty brash -- it doesn't mince words or hide what the author thinks of church, sin, and God. The message of the book is targeted at children as its primary audience -- it's laser-guided propaganda.

Sam, I think your post was an refreshingly healthy response to the situation.

--clint

Edit: Fixed some details about Metatron.

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited October 26, 2007).]

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That is really sad, God is wrong so lets create a story about kids having sex. Yeah, I will totally buy anything this dude says /sarcasm.

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quote:

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To say the least, the church was less than accepting of Harry Potter, which I found little to nothing wrong with it.

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i must tell you guys this: i am extremley extremley against harry potter, people it's witchcraft being tought to children!!!!!!!!!

have you heard how one of the characters has now turned out to be gay, all this time Christians have said that harry potter is evil(me and possibly others say it's demonically inspired) and apparently j.k.rowling has proved us right when she put homosexuality(which is a direct transgression against the creational law(i.e. law of marriage) of GOD) in harry potter.

it's amazing at first harry potter was about teaching children(and some adults) how witch craft and darkness was ok(more than ok) now they added pervertedness on it.

btw: i am anti-halloween too.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by spade89:
have you heard how one of the characters has now turned out to be gay,

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I've read the 7 books all-the-way-through two complete times, and I honestly can't remember anyone turning out to be gay. Who are you thinking of?

--clint

quote:

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Originally posted by HanClinto:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by spade89:
[b]have you heard how one of the characters has now turned out to be gay,

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I've read the 7 books all-the-way-through two complete times, and I honestly can't remember anyone turning out to be gay. Who are you thinking of?

--clint[/B][/QUOTE]

JK Rowling came out and said Dumbledore was gay---which was stupid since it had no bearing on the story.

Spade: it isn't real witchcraft in Harry Potter, it is fantasy, that would be like saying Narnia is satanic because 'an ancient magic' brought Aslan back to life---it is wrong if the only thing raising a kid is Harry Potter and other fantasy stories--but that is a sin of that single parent/parents and not all who enjoy the story.

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quote:

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Originally posted by zookey:
JK Rowling came out and said Dumbledore was gay---which was stupid since it had no bearing on the story.

---

Consider myself surprised and put in my place. Thanks Zookie, Spade.

--clint

as for enjoying harry potter what the characters did in the movie was promote witchcraft. i know it's not for real but there is real witch craft and it is a sin. now a days there is this religion called wicca and it's legal not only that after harry potter(and tv shows like charmed) more people are being interested in wicca and dark magic.

just like the LORD gives his people inspiration to write his word and to preach it i imo believe that the devil uses humans to promote evil and witch craft which imo is basicaly working for devil(whether they know it or not).

i know it's fantasy but fantasizing about evil(in this case witch craft ) is not good.

not only that look at the demographics that are reading the harry potter books and watching the movies--- majority are under 18.

and if narnia or any other movie/book promotes dark magic(or witchraft) then imo it's bad.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And J.K.Rowling made Dumbledore gay (out of the books, not in, which I think was a good move) in order to increase tolerance towards homosexuals.
I think as Christians we should know about love and not judging one's neighbors. We accept killers, adulterers, thiefs and other questionable characters, but as soon as one of them's gay, it's suddenly so wrong?

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Q.E.D.

according to what you are saying pornography is ok too since people don't commit adultery/lust because of the movie but because they choose too???

arch i don't get why you are trying to justify a lie of the world.

harry potter is evil enough to get people to think "witch craft may not be all blood spilling and killing cats and chickens" but deceptive enough to get people to think it's ok to let your 5 year old watch it.

it doesn't show the real witch craft(if it did no one would like it) but it promotes witch craft.

and i am getting sick of people trying to justify wicca it's witch craft it may not be the traditional voodoo but it's witch craft it's evil.

imo witch craft is the practice of supernatural(demons) activities and interacting with the supernatural in an illegal manner and practicing of supernatural powers that are not of GOD.

and i never said we should accept theifs and murderers or even judge them.

i am not saying let's judge gay people .

i am not against homosexuals but homosexuality(there is a big differnce) i don't hate the people but i hate homosexuality(the action not the actor) and it's not my place to judge homosexual people but i don't see a problem with saying that a sin is wrong.

j.k.rowling is trying to increase tolerance towards homosexuality and i don't like the idea of promoting a sin so i am saying the book(and movie)harry potter is evil and even inspired by possibly the devil.

personally i try(although i have failed many times) not to judge people but trying to hate a sin is not a bad thing.

all in all :

the BIBLE calls homosexuality one of the highest sins and harry potter promotes homosexuality , the BIBLE says witch craft is a great sin(as the matter of fact the punishment for practicing witchcraft in the O.T. i think was death) but the whole point of harry potter is to promote witch craft.

i think it is fair to say that harry potter is an anti-Christianity book.

and it's amazing how so many people call you a bigot and start judging you when you say stuff like this.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Besides, any look into fantasy magic for the standard wizards is an understanding over the world, not seeking to channel the powers of a dark being. It's not supernatural at all; in these worlds magic is natural. Just like if I make a fantasy world where no one can see, a person with eyes would exhibit magical powers. Supernatural is merely a word to describe things that pass our comprehension, not necessarily things of a spiritual or metaphysical manner.

Pornography is an entirely different animal, though. People don't watch porn so they can see a story, they want to become sexually aroused. By definition, pornography is literature designed to arouse people. In a sense, it's more interactive, if I could call it that. The act of physically seeing porn isn't a sin; it's when you watch it to become "involved."

Lastly, is it supportive of homosexuality to have a good gay character in a story? I'm friends with gays and lesbians; am I promoting homosexuality by being associated in a positive manner with these individuals?
The point of this is, is okay to not only admit the existence of homosexuals, but also admit that they could be one of the "good guys?"
Rowling placed no emphasis on his sexual orientation at all and did not push the "gay agenda." She just stated that he was gay.

etc etc etc. blah blah blah.

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Q.E.D.

The physically pleasurable act of sex should not be conflated with love. Even in a heterosexual relationship which is entirely focused on the physical, love does not equate to coitus. It can be an expression of love but there is a distinction. In a physical relationship two (or more, in the case of group sex) where love is not involved people are using each other as a means to end—that of gaining physical pleasure. In such relationships it's often considered acceptable to sleep around with "friends."

So by convincing people that in order to have true love sexual acts must be involved they have managed to mangle the issues. Thus we have this Dumbledore example where love is automatically translated into homosexuality.

On the main issue, the Golden Compass is apparently fairly benign. It's not until the third book that the blatant "evangelical atheist" message comes about.

[This message has been edited by gump (edited October 27, 2007).]

quote:

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Originally posted by gump:
Dumbledore is said to be "gay" or a homosexual since he apparently felt a great love for another man when he was younger. Personally, I've always thought the homosexual movement has purposefully tried to blur the line between love and sex. They've been fairly successful, so in today's society the distinction between examples like David and Jonathan and homosexuality are lost. If two of the people same sex are said to love each other and they are not family they are presumed to be "gay".

[This message has been edited by gump (edited October 27, 2007).]

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Technically I agree, however I have to add heterosexuals into that too--society in general has no idea what true love is, whether it be a love like David and Johnathan had or a loving relationship between a husband and a wife---which is exhibited by many of these politicians who, in wanting to appear right-wing, support the 'sanctity of marriage' yet constantly cheat on their spouses and only stay married to look good to the public, and this fallacy actually spits in the face of God's creation just as much as homosexuality does-----society in general has a screwed up view of love.

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as for homosexuality yes i think it's wrong to have a gay character in a movie to be watched by children(or even any adult) if the gay people were pedophiles i am sure we wouldn't be having this conversation.

see the thing is there are so many gay people out there and the media has made homosexuality something normal or a biological orientation that people think homosexuality should be tolerated.

tolerating homosexuality is like tolerating any other sin or crime let's say one of the characters was a theif it's possible that some theif(don't misunderstand me here i am not saying we should treat homosexuals as theifs,i am not talking about homosexuals but homsexuality here so bare with me) can be kind and they can be on the good side but that doesn't change the fact that stealing is wrong and it shouldn't be taught to children as something to tolerate. don't try to make homosexuality a harmless crime(or it should be a crime in the u.s.).

as i said i am not out to judge the people but i personally am against homosexuality and i would encourage any attempt to stop it's spread and i am against any attempt to promote homosexuality .

can't you see it's the work of the devil ,back in the 30's ,40's and 50's homosexuality was such a horrible thing as the matter of fact up until 1979 homosexuality was considered to be a psychological disorder but some how step by step after the civil rights movement the enemy some how legalized abortion made homosexuality look like a right instead of violation of liberty then somehow people started adopting to the idea of homosexuality. now a days the world sees homosexuality as something to tolerate rather than something to eradicate and harry potter is one other example. now in harry potter they are trying to brain wash the next generation to be tolerant towards homosexuality . in the BILBE homosexuality is an abominaton,distasteful and perverted and i agree with that.

homosexuality is so horrible i don't think little kids should hear about it. some of this kids barely know what sexuality is but they are being brain washed to be tolerant to homosexuality.

homosexuality is a rough topic when you are anti-homosexuality people in the world see you as if you are a hater(although it's true that we should hate homosexuality but not the people) or as if you fear gay people and they call you a homophobe. as rough as it is in my opinion we should try as much as we can not to compromise on how much we dilike and hate the sins we hate(imo).

as i said it's not my job to persecute homosexuals but to persecute homosexuality(although i admit i haven't done a good job at it).

and letting kids see a movie about magic and fantasy like harry potter and addicting them to it then telling them that one of the characters is gay is a typical deception by the devil. i don't see any reason why you are arguing over this.

what are you trying to say it's ok to make kids think homosexuality is something to tolerate?

i am not saying act like it doesn't exist but that doesn't mean tolerate it ,that means instead of making kids tolerate it the right thing to do might have been telling them it's bad.

and arch, you called the church a hypocrit don't you think you are being judgemental yourself.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[This message has been edited by spade89 (edited October 27, 2007).]

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone

and, by the way, adulterers and prostitutes were looked down on WAY worse back in those days then gays ever were in our times---so I think that statement applies.

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i am not saying i am a better person than anyone myself here.

remember this whole discussion about homosexuality is not about any person or group of people but about homosexuality the action.

think of it as if discussing about murder instead of murderers....

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by spade89:
i totally agree zookey.

i am not saying i am a better person than anyone myself here.

remember this whole discussion about homosexuality is not about any person or group of people but about homosexuality the action.

think of it as if discussing about murder instead of murderers....

---

Understood, but a lot of what you said (or maybe, how you said it) seemed to vilify homosexuals when they need God's love just as much as we do----and Harry Potter is a different issue---actually I thought it was rather shallow of Christian culture--they called it satanic and, the minute a buck could be made, they changed their mind--this turning point was when a guy wrote a book showing how Harry Potter uses Christian morals to convey the story and could be used to teach kids Christian values-----just like rock music, the devil's music until it had $ attached. Either way, Harry Potter and Wicca is TOTALLY different----and most Wicca's I have met (admitidly, not a lot) were into that for shock rock value and Harry Potter had nothing to do with it--they wanted to be different from society which is why they picked this religion--it is tiny and different--and thusly they would be, more than likely, repulsed by Harry Potter due to the books being so popular that it would give them something in common with 'normal people'. And, like stated earlier, the magic in Harry Potter is not like real life incantations or hexes, it is a separate fantasy setting that is totally different from any real life cults, devil worship or witchcraft----and just because Narnia uses magic doesn't make it satanic--it is symbolic for God's power.

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as for harry potter i don't want to copy paste what i said in previous posts but as i said if harry potter was real life magic and witch craft it'dn't have been popular and parents wouldn't have been deceived to let their children watch it and i do feel(to a certain extent )in a similar way towards rock music(or pop,rap or most secular music).

and i don't get how both of you(zookey and arch) have collectively kind of judged the Church. you seem to have something against the Church or is that my imagination??

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

But my question is: why isn't this thread showing up on the main page? Are there other threads that get taken off the main page?

(Edit: I guess I turned off some toggle switch. Found that by accident, praise God.)

[This message has been edited by JeTSpice (edited October 28, 2007).]

disgusiting, and now his motives for helping harry are all skewed and sickly...
sorry for the strong lanuage, but really, that just ruined everything..

as for the magic and halloween...

comon guys, we've been over this... time and time and time again...
I haven't been away that long to forget that this topic seems to come up EVERY SINGLE HALOWEEN.

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yeah, im a little crazy
Check out my crazy sig that I made:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Realm Master:

comon guys, we've been over this... time and time and time again...
I haven't been away that long to forget that this topic seems to come up EVERY SINGLE HALOWEEN.

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Sorta...this thread was posted mostly in response to the Golden Compass coming out soon and like a oil spill on a freeway, this thread has gone elsewhere. This and 99.9% of the non-programming threads on CCN.

[This message has been edited by Lava (edited October 28, 2007).]

quote:

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like a oil spill on a freeway, this thread has gone elsewhere. This and 99.9% of the non-programming threads on CCN

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Indeed. Good one LAVA!

quote:

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Dumbldore now seems like some child-molesting pedifile.

---

Anyhow, my money's on Hagred being the pedophile... jk.

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Q.E.D.

Book author Phillip Pulman - "I'm trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief" ...oops, did i say that?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A23371-2001Feb18?

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>>>--supercoder--<<<

Here are some quotes about the daemons:
"In Lyra's world a person's soul lives on the outside of their body, in the form of a daemon - an animal spirit that accompanies them through life. A child's daemon can change shape, assuming all the forms that a child's potential inspires; but as a child ages their daemon gradually settles into one form, according to their character and nature."

"One's daemon is the animal that reflects the innermost self. Are you a snake? Are you a puppy dog? Look at the daemon by your side, and that will tell you. One's daemon is one's soul."

They don't only want you to watch the movie and read the books but for the really interested fans, there is a way to "meet your daemon"... Is this just an atheist that hates CS Lewis and Christianity or are we dealing with something more here?

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They will know that we are Christians by our love.

He probably chose the word "daemon" just to piss off christians.
Judging by other fantasy, it seems a little out of place.

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Q.E.D.

quote:

---

Originally posted by brandon:
We were looking at the website for The Golden Compass, and just from reading some of the info there we don't think that Pullman is simply an atheist. Some of the different words and terminology that Pullman likes to use... His Dark Materials, daemons, and just the plot and world makes us kinda think that he is probably into some sort of Satanic religion or something.
...snip...
Is this just an atheist that hates CS Lewis and Christianity or are we dealing with something more here?

---

I don't think it's a terribly bad idea to check the books out of the library and give them a read-through. They're engaging and fun, (albeit horribly twisted). Us being in the entertainment industry, it might give us a bit of a clue as to what kind of stuff we're up against.

--clint

Those who work in entertainment might need to go see a movie, read a book, etc. just because it's part of their livelihood.

However, those who go to do what the Holy Spirit is urging them not to, out of curiosity, are doing a great harm to their relationship with Jesus. Not all the ancient Jews participated in the rites of the Ashera poles -- some just went to watch, and this was a sin.

The Golden Compass is probably not going to lead someone to sin. But it is a calling card of godlessness. We've been warned about the true nature behind this movie. God has set before this country good and evil and said "choose good." We will see on this coming Day of Infamy what lurks in the hearts of our countrymen.

quote:

---

Originally posted by brandon:
We were looking at the website for The Golden Compass, and just from reading some of the info there we don't think that Pullman is simply an atheist. Some of the different words and terminology that Pullman likes to use... His Dark Materials, daemons, and just the plot and world makes us kinda think that he is probably into some sort of Satanic religion or something.

Here are some quotes about the daemons:
"In Lyra's world a person's soul lives on the outside of their body, in the form of a daemon - an animal spirit that accompanies them through life. A child's daemon can change shape, assuming all the forms that a child's potential inspires; but as a child ages their daemon gradually settles into one form, according to their character and nature."

"One's daemon is the animal that reflects the innermost self. Are you a snake? Are you a puppy dog? Look at the daemon by your side, and that will tell you. One's daemon is one's soul."

They don't only want you to watch the movie and read the books but for the really interested fans, there is a way to "meet your daemon"... Is this just an atheist that hates CS Lewis and Christianity or are we dealing with something more here?

---

Keep in mind that the words "demon", "daemon", and "daimon" have more than just one meaning, an evil spirit not being the original and only one.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Tool Development Engineer
GarageGames

quote:

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However, those who go to do what the Holy Spirit is urging them not to, out of curiosity, are doing a great harm to their relationship with Jesus. Not all the ancient Jews participated in the rites of the Ashera poles -- some just went to watch, and this was a sin.

The Golden Compass is probably not going to lead someone to sin. But it is a calling card of godlessness. We've been warned about the true nature behind this movie. God has set before this country good and evil and said "choose good." We will see on this coming Day of Infamy what lurks in the hearts of our countrymen.

---

Inversely I would argue that this isn't the case for every Christian. Sure if you feel it would be a temptation into something that could lead you astray, then I would definitely say don't go. Though godlessness exists in our world, we are not meant to be naive to it. The Bible exposes us to all sorts of acts of evil, describes more vile acts than anything else I've read before. So just exposing yourself to something doesn't give it control.

I strongly believe it is in how you digest the data. Whether your looking for beliefs to challenge your own, or you simply are digesting the data to know what your talking about. There is little worse than damning something you personally know very little of. There's also a matter of exposing yourself simply for the knowledge of what's out there, to better help you to communicate to those who believe in such things.

I also have strong beliefs in exposing yourself to alternate beliefs (exposing, not trying to adopt them) to make you stronger in your own. When someone who knows the opposing belief well and believes in it and in turn knows your belief well, what sort of position does that put you in. It's puts you into a very limited corner in which you are afraid to look outside of your box. For all you know such things could reveal or reiterate more of God's truths to you, but you may never know. Learning God is done through living, in many cases in the lions den, with faith in the Lord that he will reveal the truth and open your mind to his wisdom, whether it be giving you a new perspective on your own beliefs, or showing you how valuable and God empowered what you already know is.

Knowledge without wisdom is nothing, then again wisdom without knowledge is also very limiting as well. Jesus put himself in many situations that many current Christians would scoff at. He talked to all sorts of people, those we would consider "vile", he exposed himself to other beliefs, he challenged them head on, he had faith. If you are afraid a movie may change your entire belief system then you shouldn't go, though should also double check your faith, beliefs, and foundation in believing the Lord.

(Hopefully this doesn't offend anyone, I'm in a fairly blunt mood

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Matthew Langley
Lead Tool Development Engineer
GarageGames

No, Matt, nobody who loves the truth would take offense at hearing it. The prudent love it, and love correction. The Word says we are to be "Wise as serpents and innocent as doves." We're to know our enemies are out to get us. I think that's why Paul told the early Christians (and us, too) not to fight physically, but to fight in the spriritual realm. I think those Christians felt like fighting, because they knew what evil was.

So, in that case, one person fights by living among their enemies for a time and gaining knowledge (like David did when he was hiding from Saul) But other people fight by not endorsing the weapons of the enemy.

My own testimony of gaining wisdom starts not with the study of others, but of the study of the Word. It cuts me to the soul and I repent and it gives me wisdom. Since I have died so many times in Proverbs and Psalms, (and may the Holy Fire continue to burn me) I have gained many weapons of which to engage the enemy--the Lord has given them to me. There were also times when I dwelt in evil, and not as a Christian among lions, but as a lion. And so, to me, having lived that way, there is nothing there for me to learn.

So, anybody who doesn't like spoilers, skip the post.

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:>o<:

[o] <o> [o]

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now...

For the most part, the movie was more of a "freedom-fighter" type of movie.
Pretty much a struggle against a dominating government structure.
No mention of religion, or any god.
Small reference to the battle between the church and schools via evolution, being that the Magisterium (overbearing authority) tried to control what the colleges taught.

For anybody who doesn't really like to look into the symbolism of things, it's hardly an anti-christian movie. It was rather enjoyable, too.

Now, what I found, which I believe to be much stronger in the books, was the symbolism of sin.
Daemons, as Brandon pointed out, were a person's soul. At first I tossed off the name as something Pullman chose just to annoy christians but now I believe it was nomination he used in reference to a person's personal demons they have inside of them.
The movie references a particle called "dust" which holds together the universe and can flow through a person's Daemon into themselves.
The Magisterium tries to hide and deny the existence of dust and as shown later in the film, practice "intercession" to remove a child from their daemon to make them immune to dust.
I found the parallelism Pullman made between dust and the athiest's view of the church's view on sin to be rather strong considering Pullman's disposition towards christianity.
Here the Magisterium tried separate people from dust and their daemon (the church/jesus trying to rid people of sin) and in turn removing "what made them human."
Seems like Pullman was accusing the church of trying rid the people of their soul.
Considering how most athiests view the church (what do they really know of it?) as merely a control institution trying to brainwash people into blind following, denying "free will" and rational thinking, I came to this conclusion.

It's more of less hazy in the movie, and I wouldn't have picked this up if I didn't know pullman's agenda. Besides talk of "heresy", the magisterium's style appearing more of less similar to catholicism and the feud between the magisterium and colleges, I would have more of less assumed it was a struggle against tyranny.

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Q.E.D.

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited December 08, 2007).]

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
Here the Magisterium tried separate people from dust and their daemon (the church/jesus trying to rid people of sin) and in turn removing "what made them human."
Seems like Pullman was accusing the church of trying rid the people of their soul.

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Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that you caught so much from just the first movie -- much of the harder-core anti-church stuff didn't come out in the books until #2 and #3.

Good job!

--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited December 08, 2007).]

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CCN's Resident Color Commentator!

[This message has been edited by super angel steve (edited December 08, 2007).]

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Originally posted by super angel steve:
I think it would be terrible if the 2 sequals were made,Liberal Athiests have too much power in our culture as is.

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Don't worry about too much about liberals, conservatives, atheists, theists and other groups---our fight isn't with people but with principalities remember

Honestly, I remember reading where Nichole Kidman said she wouldn't have done the film if it was ultra overt anti-christian (she is Catholic)---so my assumption is one of 2 things

A) They will water down the later books in order to keep Christians coming to the films so they don't cut out a potential audience (over half of our country claims Christianity--now whether a lot walk the walk is one thing but a totally different arguement, long story short you still would want their revenue if you were a big movie company exec--because big movie companies tend to focus on that first, the only reason this film got greenlit was LOTR and Narnia )

B) This film saga will end up being like 'A series of unfortunate events' where 1 film is made despite several books.

Honestly, even though I have a LOT of beef with the Catholic church, during a interview about the DaVinci Code a priest said something I was cheering at the screen for: "Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is, if a fictional story is enough to shake the foundations of your faith you needed to be questioning and examining your faith anyways" (slightly paraphrased). Most people won't be shook by it. Honestly, a friend asked me to consider the implications of the Davzinci Code on my faith--and I went through and questioned it---it was tough but in the end my faith came out better for it because I looked up info myself (both in the Bible and independent of it) and found a stronger belief in God and Jesus grounded on the things I learned---so these kind of things can have a far better positive effect than negative if religous people use it as a time to allow and encourage questions both personally and from external sources--it would give the world a greater view of what we believe and help them understand why it is real---when Christians instead band together and threaten boycotts and the like, we all end up looking like a petty political group instead (because, many who claim Jesus are more interested in worldly power and possessions than following him--just like the people he butted heads with when he was on Earth).

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Originally posted by Lava:
I refuse to see it. Not only because of the pro-atheism but in my opinion it's just more LOTR-esque cash in. I think it should've been named "Not another high-fantasy movie".

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LMAO nice Although I too hate cash ins I am kinda happy Narnia got greenlit---granted I thought they could have done a little more with the film but at least it wasn't like the Left Behind films---non Christians and Christians alike enjoyed Narnia whereas the LB films even made a lot of enthusiastic Christians wince LOL!

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[This message has been edited by Lava (edited December 09, 2007).]

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Originally posted by Lava:
I definitely agree, even Narnia was Disney's answer to LOTR, I thought was really good and I do look forward to the next installments. It was like Sonic amongst all of the Mario-clones lol.

[This message has been edited by Lava (edited December 09, 2007).]

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LOL now that analogy would be good if you are talking about the oldschool games but REALLY bad if you are talking about new school

Although, I did play Sonic Adventure 2 Battle on the GameCube back in the day---so I have to disagree with people when they say there has NEVER beena good 3D sonic game-----SA2B was awesome and did a lot of things right----it is a tough call between that and Smash Bros Melee as to which game I spent more hours on on the GC hehe! I really wish they would have made a good 3D sonic like that for the PS2--or the PS3 even but the Sonic on PS3 is horrid from what I have heard (people said the load times are like 20 minutes and happen everytime a character talks).

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Originally posted by samw3:
Although there be not armor-cladded bears, I remember Xenogears, a SquareSoft title for the PS1 having a similar story, the rise of man and the assassination of "God".
e Davinci Code.

Where are the Tolkens and Lewis' of our day? hmm.

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2nd post---thought the second sentence deserved a revived HOLLAR man!!!!

To the first one---Xenogears takes place in a totally fantasy world whereas the Golden Compass overlaps ours with a fantasy one--plus Xeno was aimed at adults (T or M can't remember) wheras GC is aimed at kids---not making excuses but I don't think Xenogears was meant to be targeted at religion and to be hate filled, but the GC certainly seems to not share that trait. I wasn't offended by Xenogears (actually a good game although Inever finished it ) but GC I do find mildly offensive (I say mildly because if a dude has such a strong beef as to make a story to try and trick kids into sharing his beliefs, I don't have a lot of respect for what he has to say--is he afraid that adults won't rationally consider his arguments so he has to go after a more innocent set of people??).

But yeah, props again on that second sentence!

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I agree, Sonic Adventure 2 (and 1 imo) were the highlights of Sonic's 3D run, Sonic Heroes was pretty cool too. I have played Sonic the Hedgehog 360\PS3 at stores and it is really bad, the controls are difficult and some of the adventure fields and levels look devoid of that visual spark SA1, SA2 and even Heroes had.

There's also Secret Rings, but I have played too little of it to say how good it is, but I have heard it's one of the better 3D Sonic games (better than Sonic 360\PS3 anyways lol).

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Originally posted by zookey:
2nd post---thought the second sentence deserved a revived HOLLAR man!!!!

To the first one---Xenogears takes place in a totally fantasy world whereas the Golden Compass overlaps ours with a fantasy one--plus Xeno was aimed at adults (T or M can't remember) wheras GC is aimed at kids---not making excuses but I don't think Xenogears was meant to be targeted at religion and to be hate filled, but the GC certainly seems to not share that trait. I wasn't offended by Xenogears (actually a good game although Inever finished it ) but GC I do find mildly offensive (I say mildly because if a dude has such a strong beef as to make a story to try and trick kids into sharing his beliefs, I don't have a lot of respect for what he has to say--is he afraid that adults won't rationally consider his arguments so he has to go after a more innocent set of people??).

But yeah, props again on that second sentence!

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It was rated teen (had to look it up), so it was targeted at a younger audience than adults. You know (playing devil's advocate here), Mr. Pullman could say that VBS(as in vacation bible school) is tricking kids into sharing a church's beliefs. Right? Now, before anyone gets me wrong, I believe that Mr. Pullman has put himself in a precarious position as the enemy of God. In the end he will find out that He's not some withered ancient alien creature but the creator of all things and very much in control of them. However this is freedom of speech, so again I would encourage everyone to speak out and creatively develop engaging stories that proclaim the truth about God.

God Bless!

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Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

quote:

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Originally posted by Lava:
@Zookey: Yeah old school Sonic definitely.

I agree, Sonic Adventure 2 (and 1 imo) were the highlights of Sonic's 3D run, Sonic Heroes was pretty cool too. I have played Sonic the Hedgehog 360\PS3 at stores and it is really bad, the controls are difficult and some of the adventure fields and levels look devoid of that visual spark SA1, SA2 and even Heroes had.

There's also Secret Rings, but I have played too little of it to say how good it is, but I have heard it's one of the better 3D Sonic games (better than Sonic 360\PS3 anyways lol).

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Yeah hehe--I played them in reverse order (SA2 first then SA1) so SA1 didn't seem as revolutionary but still not bad---heroes I didn't like as much--I was really rooting for the 360/ps3 one but it fell through--want to try Secret Rings (might do so when I get a Wii again someday) and I heard that Sonic and Mario at the olympics was the worst Mario game ever made---oh well at least Sonic is in Smash Bros Brawl so hopefully that will jump start his popularity again and Sega will feel the need to hire fresh blood to make a profitable Sonic game!

It is true Pullman could claim that (and there are probably some VBS' that teach inappropriate stuff--I know I once went to a Bible camp run by a 'respectable' church and the youth pastor at the camp preached on how we should be wary of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit can lead us to have premarital sex), but still if he believes that two wrongs don't make a right. I strongly believe people (including children) should be taught to question everything and think independently (which probably a lot of VBS' don't do, which could be a shallow reason for Pullman to make that argument), but Pullman isn't advocating that, he just wants people to flip to his beliefs without question--it doesn't seem to me he is about questioning church and how some churches (unfortunately a decent chunk of them) do unbiblical and questionable things, it is more that he wants attention and wants to create a new group of followers that believes what he believes, instead of asking questions and seeing where the truth really is.

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O/T I just won't cast my spiritual vote for the Amoral Compass.

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Originally posted by zookey:
Yeah hehe--I played them in reverse order (SA2 first then SA1) so SA1 didn't seem as revolutionary but still not bad---heroes I didn't like as much--I was really rooting for the 360/ps3 one but it fell through

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Ah, I played them in order and it was reversed for me, when I played SA1 it blew me away (alot graphically, one of the first next-gen games of that time), then when I got SA2 I liked it alot, but it didn't have the same effect as SA1 to me.

I too was looking forward to Sonic 360\PS3, in fact so much I half considered getting a 360.

Thread topic: Compass bombed on it's first day with $26.1 mill, which was predicted to make $40 mill (so not a big flop, but it has still underperformed so far), *maybe* New Line will get the idea.

[This message has been edited by Lava (edited December 11, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by Lava (edited December 11, 2007).]

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Originally posted by JeTSpice:
The Holy Spirit doesn't make people weird. It exposes people are weird. That Pastor probably heard somebody say "The Holy Spirit led me to have premarital sex." But what really happened was "The Holy Spirit exposed lust in me, but instead of repenting, I felt good in the comfort of the Holy Spirit and then I had sex." Word!

O/T I just won't cast my spiritual vote for the Amoral Compass.

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From what I heard, the earlier year he caught 2 kids having sex and that is the excuse they used so he took it as hardcore fact. LOL when I was there (many years ago) Nirvana was getting big and a lot of kids had Nirvana shirts there--they side-stepped adult disapproval by saying Nirvana was a Christian band-----so, while they should have been accepted and loved for where they were at in life these kids instead had to learn lying techniques to survive in this alleged Christian culture--it was funny and sad to watch at the same time, but either way those kids never were taught real Christianity apparently.

Man hehe--good think you didn't get a 360 Lava, you would have had a 1 in 3 chance of a speshel suprize!

Yeah Compass tanked---prolly will be like Lemony Snickets Series of Unfortnate Events like I said earlier heeh!

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