CPUFreak91 Member Posts: 2337 From: Registered: 02-01-2005 |
Recently I read an excerpt of an article which mentions that long term memories can be erased. I started thinking "What if someone tried to erase my beliefs and faith in Christ?". Today it hit me: You can't erase a spiritually-healthy Christian's faith because those long term memories are ingrained every day. If someone were to try to erase a Christian's faith, they would have to erase their entire brain... could happen but then you have a vegtable, not an un-believer. On a side note, this also led me to discover that you can't call a Christian "brainwashed" because: What are your opinions on this? ------------------ "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." "Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala. |
TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
The Holy Spirit of God is constantly at work renewing and, well, recoding, the mind of the child of the LORD. Even without it being the LORD, such a pace would be quite difficult to keep up against, no?  ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
Jari Member Posts: 1471 From: Helsinki, Finland Registered: 03-11-2005 |
Hey, I wont read the article but here's first two verses when we look the answer from God's word: We are given Holy spirit: Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
I hope that makes sense, I've heard some stories about this. ------------------ [VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3) |
crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
"Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs." 1st definition of "brainwashing" give in the American Heritage Dictionary. Since the term "propaganda" is rather ambiguous, I'll provide some examples. The doubter is handed some reading material, told of some reassuring fact (which is generally an exception to the norm), or referred to the Bible. Now, unless the person is in doubt because they perceive a "contradiction" within the Bible itself, or a small variety of other exceptions, referring them to some scripture is just circular reasoning. Unfortunately, thats enough for somebody who is already mostly indoctrinated. Now, I know there are those of you out there who think for yourselves and all that. Thats great - but you've called yourself a "Christian" and placed yourself in that group. Note - being on this site alone does not make you shove you in that category. I think we can all recall a few other members who aren't. Why exactly we as non-Christians choose to hang around... perhaps because of the nice people, and relatively tight-knit group. ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
quote: no. and here's why. you claim that the church gives us rules to follow without doubt, and yet, the churches I've gone too, they encourage us to question the preconceived notions and go into prayer to find the answers. Last time I was in church, the Pastor yells out "Don't trust the pastor!" followed by "ouch, that hurt saying." point is, your view of the Church is so ultimately skewed and perverted. Sure there are churches like that and maybe your speaking out of personal experience, but in a whole, no. In a matter of fact, out of all the churches I've been to, and I've been to a lot, I've never been told to follow without doubt and accept the commands of the leaders. Might work on someone who never been to a church, but you're trying to tell a Eskimo to eat yellow snow. I understand your skepticism of churches, and I'm rather a fan of cynicism myself, but NEVER let it get in the way of reason. If you want to hate the church and "organized religion", fine, but atleast try being logical about it. Attributing the guilt to the whole group for the actions of a couple of it's members isn't what many of us consider being rational. torture and execution? LOL. Propaganda is reading material? In that case, any piece of literature is propaganda! Everybody is trying to convince others they are right. Your little post is propaganda. And so is mine. Welcome to the world. Human society is built on this. This is what holds us together. It's as natural as eating and dandruff. I've heard you talk about the evils of organized religion, and for many parts, I'd agree with you. We keep ending like the Pharisee's Jesus so ardently opposed and essentially turned our backs on the very origins of Christianity. If you have criticisms, cite them. But blanket statements about the church and brainwashing stand unsupported. I may sound like I'm flaming, and maybe I am, but I hold you to a higher standard than many people and I honestly expect you to think and come to a logical conclusion. Doesn't need to be mine, just... "Christians are brainwashed" is a bit like, oh, what's the word, propaganda. ------------------ [This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited August 21, 2007).] |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
As Christians we are commanded to doubt and test everyone and everything against what God Himself has already said in the Holy Scriptures (i. e. the Bible). This command is given in the Old Testament and the New, from Jesus, the Apostles, and the Prophets. It is throughout the Bible. This is not circular reasoning because the Bible has been attested to and verified throughout history; no one has been able to debunk it—ever. This cannot be accurately said about any other claimed “scriptures”, but only about the Bible. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
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CPUFreak91 Member Posts: 2337 From: Registered: 02-01-2005 |
quote: A Christian has a relationship with Christ. Not with an earthly church. His relationship is personal. There are no humans telling a Christian what to think. The Scriptures are God-inspired and written down by man. Men aren't telling what people need to think and do, God is (and you have the choice to reject what God says). I think the average Christian has become a little less of a critical thinker, and therefore they get labeled as being brainwashed. ------------------ "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." "Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala. |
zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
quote: You're describing the way it should be (and is for real Jesus Freaks) but there are churches--quite a few unfortunately--who look for nothing but control and convince their believers that if you don't submit to this man-made control you are going to hell----I have run into many churches that opperate under this system and seen many more that I didn't actually attend a service but saw how they act in public---some people aren't interested in what Christainity should be. ------------------ |
OthnielBenKenaz Junior Member Posts: 7 From: Elkhart, IN Registered: 08-16-2007 |
I agree with the original post here, I do not feel as though many Christians I have ever met are "Brainwashed." For one, it is simply too difficult to maintain being a Christian (for me) in the face of real life. I constantly have to make the decision to do the right thing in EVERY situation EVERY day. Even things as simple as driving to work often present you with tests of your morals (road rage). I find going to church or discussing my faith with other Christians is a wonderful way to refine/evolve my beliefs and reclarify parts of my moral framework that may have been watered down or eroded by public acceptance. This won't be true for everyone, but I have not once ever done something Christian or good and felt bad about it. However, I have regretted impulse actions that I later thought about and regarded as something Jesus would not have done. I have a very strong conscience, and following Jesus' teachings has never once led to regret. But that's not to say that I don't question things, or have ever taken the word or a pastor/priest as Gospel. (In response to crazyishone) I completely disagree with the idea that all Christians blindly follow the rules and commands of the Church. That may not be true for everyone. But it is an absurd generalization. And I say that while not completely dismissing what you have said. I loathe street-preacher types who do the bad/worse/worst condemnation you mention. I have seen that happen, and have experienced it. But, if someone wishes to condemn you into Jesus, haven't they, themselves, completely lost the message? I look for Churches that offer a loving embrace, and strong community. That's what Jesus is to me, and has nothing to do with following blindly. |
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Jari Member Posts: 1471 From: Helsinki, Finland Registered: 03-11-2005 |
quote: Probably not completely or they wouldnt be preaching at all. I respect such preaches who put an effort because they want people to be saved, it just doesnt always happen by the wisdom of Love. ------------------ [VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3) |
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CPUFreak91 Member Posts: 2337 From: Registered: 02-01-2005 |
quote: I'm describing it the way I've been experiencing it. I hadn't thought of those churches at the time of my post. Thanks for the reminder. It's a shame isn't it. ------------------ "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." "Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala. |
tireswing Member Posts: 12 From: Oklahoma, USA Registered: 03-26-2007 |
Hey guys, this is an interesting discussion. I don't think that our faith can be erased for reasons already stated (the Spirit bears witness to us and Christianity is a relationship, etc.) Our Christian experience is persistent and ongoing. It is not a memory to be remembered or forgotten. It is a present state of being. I am a Christian. I remember when I chose to follow Christ, but if I forgot that moment, that still doesn't change that I presently AM a Christian.
quote: I am a street preacher. While I have seen some preachers that seemed to do nothing but brag of their own righteousness while condemning the "drunks and fornicators" around them, that is certainly not representative of all of us. I believe in preaching. I believe in street preaching. The disciples were sent from town to town preaching. Jesus went around preaching. Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 1:21 that "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." I am one that has looked like a fool and have had plenty of Christians stop to tell me how foolish I looked, or even how annoying I was. My intent has not been to condemn, but to save. People don't need me to condemn them. John writes in John 3:17 that those who don't believe are already condemned. My goal is to preach repentance. However, this isn't a popular message and I have offended some. I have also led some to salvation in Jesus Christ. Do I stand on a sidewalk and mention sin and hell? Most definitely, but only to show people that they are lost, and then I love to tell them how they can be found. But until people realize they are lost, they have no desire to be found. Joe |
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
quote: Yeah LOL it sucks big time BTW on the 'condemning someone to Jesus' idea---someone doing that has totally lost the message---Jesus himself said he didn't come to condemn the world he came to save it--not to mention his speech about don't try to remove a splinter from your neighbor's eye if you have a log in yours---so if you, a sinner, go to Jesus and tell him why he should send someone else to Hell for sinning what are you going to say when he asks, "Well, what should I do about your sins?"---Judgement is something up to God alone and we are ultimately responsible to ourselves and him--if someone is doing crap you know is wrong yes it is decent to bring it to their attention--but, if they ignore it, pray for them and realize that their wrongdoing will ultimately be handled between them and God. ------------------ |
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OthnielBenKenaz Junior Member Posts: 7 From: Elkhart, IN Registered: 08-16-2007 |
man... I really didn't mean that as another generalization. I have agreed with both of you (CPUFreak91, tireswing). I guess what I meant was that there is a right and a wrong time in peoples life to be preached to like that. And they're so persistant, which is great, I'm sure that is what some people really need (and bless you for it). But sometimes the message they tell is not the right one you need at that exact moment in your life, and can often be damaging to your faith journey or lead you to further question things (i.e. just after a great loss). And in that rare case, persistance can be angering. But yes, it takes great conviction to do that, and that should be respected. Sorry, I really don't want to detract from the original post with my bad generalization. But even in this side discussion I think we can point out that Christians are not blindly following a set of guidelines, everything is examined. And like any healthy discussion, anything can be questioned. And while I disagreed with crazyishone's last post, I immediately thought of people it exactly describes or times when it was true (the blind faith stuff, and the guilt-trip & ridicule he mentions). But I can't say that's bad if it is truely helping people find Jesus or solidify their faith. I think that's why we're blessed with such a variety of churches (not in the denominational sense). (tying into ArchAngel's post) Each church, even in a single denomination, operates differently. So you can't say they're all bad just from a bad experience at one. Not everyone travels the same road on their journey. We need to hear/experience different things. If someone feels like they were being brainwashed by a church, try the one next door. It's not for you, (and to recant my generalization) it might be exactly what another person needs. |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
quote: This might explain the sentiment a little more clearly, if also a lot more pointedly. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
You're right Arch, I didn't really elaborate on all those claims I was making. I didn't think I'd have to, but alright. "Attributing the guilt to the whole group for the actions of a couple" These are generally found in the kind of churches you mentioned, or outside of the church thing altogether. Perhaps you don't have a grasp on what a small fraction this really is... And how can you say I'm a couple centuries too late? Do you honestly think that even for the sake of argument, its ok to ignore history? Nearly two millenniums of "Christianity" hold plenty of proof of what I'm saying. First, we'll start with Constantine. This was really the end of what I'll call the "martyr" period of the "Christian religion" as a whole. He used it in an attempt to unify the empire; those who did not comply were ostracized. Moving on to the Holy Roman Empire and Roman Catholic Church in the western world, we see plenty of intimidation and oppression. Wars waged in the name of God. The Orthodox Church was equally demanding of blind following. It was not until later on that the common people were allowed to read the Bible for themselves to begin with. Soon you've got the earliest Protestants like the Hussites and Lollards. Wonder how things went for them... Yeah. Jumping to Martin Luther, we've got the first successful Protestant break off. These people also suffered quite a bit of persecution. In all of this mix we have various Inquisitions and Crusades, doing their business as well. Some people seeking religious freedom flee to the "New World." Given a few decades, they've combated some "Savages" and kept a strict righteous rule over themselves. (By intimidation of course. If not of direct violence, any "sinner" is booted from the relative safety of their settlement.) Puritans and the like: Same deal. I'll mention the Salem Witch Trials just to point out that none of these people were witches. In fact, its suspected that the first of them were under the influence of ergotism. (Psychedelic experiences brought on by eating wheat,grain,etc. food that had been infect with ergot. Yes, it can survive the heat of cooking.) The later ones were just the victims of paranoia, hysteria, and way too much power for the church. Very rough and bare outline of some of the wonderful products of the Christian religion. You can't just dismiss the history of it. The small group of self-thinking Christians isn't a new thing. They usually form their own little organized group while under persecution or exile of sorts, then it slowly grows into an equally hideous beast. (One example: Early Christians -> Roman Catholics {with a few steps in between}) TallBill, you're right. The Bible hasn't ever been "proved false". We consistently find proof of the integrity of its Historical information. The rest of it? Nobody has proved anything either way. Thats another debate. Non-denominational protestants examining their own beliefs are the newest idealist group. Just remember, its a small part of a bigger picture that you've attached yourself to. You can't keep using the excuse that the people are the ones doing things wrong, the belief in itself is fine. Well, yeah. But its not often you see a Christian lizard out evangelizing, is it. We are the perpetrators of our beliefs, and by calling yourself a "Christian" you must take responsibility for roughly 1.5 thousand years of some rather nasty stuff. Guilty by association... "We're not like those Christians. We do this, that, and some other stuff differently." Then don't take the name.
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
Honestly, he has a point--the name Christian has been drug around in the mud by people who claim to follow Jesus--my attitude is to try and change the view of my beliefs by being a positive influence on those around me and have God, not people of any sort, lead my decisions. But, there is times I prefer to refer to myself as a Jesus Freak as opposed to a Christian because, if you tell someone you are a Christian, they immediately think you are going to judge them--you tell them you are a Jesus Freak it tends to put the focus on Jesus and get them to ask questions. ------------------ |
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tireswing Member Posts: 12 From: Oklahoma, USA Registered: 03-26-2007 |
quote: @bill -- that's a great article!
quote: @crazyishone -- I know it can seem like a cop-out, but you cannot assert that my decision to follow Jesus Christ is a blanket endorsement of the actions of all others throughout history who have claimed to do so. In Matthew chapter 7, Jesus said that many would claim to be his followers but they would not be doing God's will. There would be many phonies, using religion and even the name of Jesus for their own gain. Jesus said it would happen, and it has. But he does not forsake his name because of those who would misuse it. Scripture still records that his name is the only name by which mankind can be saved. Just as Jesus did not forsake his name, neither can I. Joe |
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CPUFreak91 Member Posts: 2337 From: Registered: 02-01-2005 |
quote: Not just not dismiss, heck, we also have to disprove that that's the way Christianity works!
quote: And what, chicken out? We have to acknowdledge that people made mistakes under the name of Christianity. I doubt the Crusaders and some of the catholics in previous centuries were true Christians. Christians shouldn't be judged by their church/denomination/label, they should be judged by their faith and actions. Crazishone: I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to expand upon your excelent points.
quote: Of course you're influenced: "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:1)
quote: (Edit by HanClinto: Bizarre blockquote issues -- switching to normal quote for sanity) Aren't all religions influencing? Aren't Communism, Nazi-ism and other beliefs influential? Yes. But Christians aren't forced to "intesive forced indoctrination" but a true Christian will reject his/her old beliefs because the new ones are truly better. I don't like the term "brainwashed" to describe Christians but there are similar qualities of the word because you are eliminating old beliefs and habits. However, you still have the choice to reject Christ's offer. No one should brainwash someone into Christianity, instead they should let the Holy Spirit encourage the switch and then they need to allow God to "brainwash" the new Christian into being more like Jesus through the Scriptures and through a strong relationship (ever notice how some people will try to be like their friends?). ------------------ "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." "Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala. My Programming and Hacker/Geek related Blog [This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited August 21, 2007).] |
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OthnielBenKenaz Junior Member Posts: 7 From: Elkhart, IN Registered: 08-16-2007 |
Wow! zookey's last post was great. That's how I feel, i.e... Actions speak louder than words. Though I still like the term Christian. It's unfortunate that the politics of the old church clouded its purpose through greed. And lately identifying yourself as a Christian brings on some sort of anti-science nonsense. And not to say that the modern church is not free of people exploiting Jesus' name for personal greed. I find that to be absolutely unconscionable, evil at its best. There's just so much good about Christianity. It would pain me to think that the message has been clouded by exploitation. Especially when there are so many good projects and help being done in Jesus' name. And on the Actions speak louder than words, I find it much more touching for a church to openly offer food to the poor without preaching or evangelising. Simply feeding the hungry. Let them inquire further, or desire to help. I hate it when they trap you with kindness into listening to a sermon. It spoils the beuty of the base kindness (for me), which was enough on its own. And on the condemning you into Jesus quote from before, I meant that it's not often what you say, but how you say it. Approaching someone can be done in so many different ways. Influence them through kindness, actions, and conviction. Help them at their pace, when they're ready. I think establishing a food bank or simply helping someone positively in their lives is much more moving than standing on a corner proclaiming the Gospel. Not bashing it, I just walk past. As where when I pass an active group I might help, drop them some cash, or tell others how cool it was. Groups that help people through grief, help stranded motorists, or save troubled kids garner the most respect in my book. The action alone is enough, it doesn't need some sermon. That's what I think of when I hear the term Christian, the willingness to help openly without gain. It's unfortunate if that has been stained. |
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CPUFreak91 Member Posts: 2337 From: Registered: 02-01-2005 |
quote: Great post! If all denominations and generations of Christians were like that the would get along much better, and Crazyishone would have never had to regale us with some of that sad history .I try to "preach" with my actions more than my words. Talk is cheap, going the extra mile isn't. ------------------ "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." "Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala. |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
I have respect for people no matter what their beliefs are as long as a)they can explain why they think that way, and generally came to the conclusion on their own. (Reciting clever retorts to common questions doesn't count.) & b)they live it! One of my best friends is a Mormon, and I leave him alone about it. :P I think evangelism is a dangerous thing: instruction by example is not only hypocrisy-proof, it is also far more effective in conveying the true meaning of (whatever belief system.) Now, if your belief system tells you to evangelize, then its in accordance with living it. Thats why "they don't evangelize at all" is not on my list of requirements. It would be ultimately arrogant of me to think that every religious person is ignorant. Just as I feel there is no proof of the existence of a supernatural, I have no solid proof against it. I am forced to accept that my theories are as flawed as anyone's. So if you came to your beliefs through real thought and questioning, then I hope we have mutual respect. ------------------ [This message has been edited by crazyishone (edited August 21, 2007).] |
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
Hehehehhe if we are getting into science and proof of a creator www.leestrobel.com --a dude who was a hardcore athiest journalist who became a Christian after investigating the science behind the Intelligent Design movement. www.yzine.com --a magazine that does a similar thing, although their information is far more simple to digest--I am currently readin Lee Strobel's book The Case for a Creator---and he goes into hardcore science that is somewhat hard to wrap your head around as opposed to the way Y-Zine shows it. I highly reccomend both---for a while I had a crisis of faith and Y-Zine helped me investigate my faith further and make it more personable and strong--and Lee presents info VERY well and is open about how he didn't want it to be true--he didn't want God to be real--but, after investigating it all he basically arrived at a point where he couldn't say he looks at evidence un-biased AND deny God at the same time--very compelling! ------------------ |
leet hacker Member Posts: 118 From: Hobbiton, Shire, Middle-Earth Registered: 07-30-2007 |
quote: The Roman Catholic church is like that: the Pope said that the RCC is the only way to heaven, and if you don't submit to his (the Pope's) authority then you are going to hell. leet hacker ------------------ [This message has been edited by leet hacker (edited August 21, 2007).] |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
quote: WRONG!!! I do not EVER take responsibility for ANYTHING that I have not committed. Such claims are merely straw-man arguments that non-believers use as an excuse for resisting the Holy Spirit, but when the day of judgment comes YOU will be held responsible for YOUR actions. When you claim that you are not responsible because God didn't send missionaries to hogo-hogo or some-such in the far south Indian ocean, God will look you in the eye and DEMAND of you what YOU did with the missionaries He sent to YOU!!! And He might even look you closer still in the eye and demand of you, “WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY SON?!!!?!” You might claim, “I didn’t put Him on that cross.” But your sins did, and you are surrounded by missionaries here. “What have you done with my Son?” ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
"I do not EVER take responsibility for ANYTHING that I have not committed. " and then... "You might claim, “I didn’t put Him on that cross.”" What a nice double-standard. I'm responsible for all sin of "non-believers" and you're only responsible for yourself? To set up a straw man argument is to pick out one small point and disprove it, and think that it is conclusive and applies to the opponent's whole argument. I'm not talking about some little inconsistency in the Bible (I've never seen one that a Christian couldn't explain anyway). ------------------ [This message has been edited by crazyishone (edited August 21, 2007).] |
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tireswing Member Posts: 12 From: Oklahoma, USA Registered: 03-26-2007 |
quote: I associate myself with Jesus Christ. If by my claiming his name, you associate me with others who have also claimed him, that is not my doing, it is yours. That said, if you are looking to prove my wickedness, you needn't connect me to centuries-old sins. I have committed plenty of my own and I can assure you that I am not a good person. But I am a saved person. Jesus didn't come for good people. He came for people like me. If judged by my own merit or goodness, I deserve an eternity in hell and all of its wrath. Joe |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
/concede. Fair enough. Despite my disagreement with your beliefs and methods, at least you seem to be doing what you've concluded to be right. (Against the opinions of other Christians too) [This message has been edited by crazyishone (edited August 21, 2007).] |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
quote: living in multiple regions of the nation, and generally visiting the more "conservative" churches. I don't grasp a small fraction, not of that type atleast. Great dismissal, though. When around 90% of the nation claims to be Christian and the people you described are rarely found, a small fraction may not define them.
quote: because the people of the inquisition are old and dead. all the criticisms of christianity are involved in periods where it was mixed with politics. It was always about power and domination. It was government, and the religion just happened to be the excuse. The same atrocities happened through government without religion, too. If anything, it's government that consistently oppresses the people.
quote: I'm glad you caught onto one of the cycles of history. Every continues in these patterns. There is death and decay, and there is rebirth.
quote:hardly.
quote: ahhhh.. here we are. I've heard this before. well, first of all, It's not the perpetration of the beliefs that your against. The text in the Bible points against the very stuff your criticizing. AKA, wheat and the tares. We're directed not to enforce morality around the world. I'm struggling to keep people fighting against the principles of the Bible from the inside. so, alright, on to guilt by association. Today's christian church is setup interestingly because we effectively separated ourselves from that guilt. We left the Catholic church on matters of principle and suffered many of the same persecution. And after the reformation, We split up into multiple denominations based upon beliefs and are generally not responsible for the actions of others. Can't be held responsible for something we had no influence over. besides, guilt by only association is a terrible concept. Aiding and abetting, is one thing, but blaming someone for something they never did isn't just.
quote:Are you saying this is the majority of Christians? I've known many christians, in many circles, and this is not the standard. What you described was cultish. ------------------ |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
"The same atrocities happened through government without religion, too. If anything, it's government that consistently oppresses the people. Look back and history and follow the patterns, instead of just jumping on the bandwagon." You know, I thought about what you mentioned while I was writing that post. I thought, "perhaps religion isn't the cause of the problems, just a correlation." After a bit more thought, it came down to the way we define religion. To me, religion is essentially government. Not like your federal government. But in a more literal sense, it governs those who participate. I understand that this looks like I'm jumping on the bandwagon, but I've thought about it (as you've undoubtedly thought about your faith in your own beliefs), and to me the bandwagon seems right. Belief in God and the teachings of the Bible is separate from associating with the "Christian" religion. Religion is supposed to be something you choose. When it isn't, my original point is proven - when it is, we reach a middle ground. If its in your control, you have taken on the responsibility for the actions of those you associate with. You can't blame a random Japanese kid for killing Americans in WW2. He didn't choose to be Japanese. In modern America (since you want to keep it to that), you choose to call yourself a Christian. ------------------ |
Mene-Mene Member Posts: 1398 From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA Registered: 10-23-2006 |
The classic C-3PO quote describes me, "Here we go again". As for the original topic, I can't say I know. Anything I would say would be opinion. I would say that your sins are washed away from the moment you repent, and accept Him into your heart, but I can't go any further without getting into touchy opinion. As for the Atheism/Evolutionism topic: As my father often says, "It is better to die believing in something with hope, and be wrong, then to die hopeless, and be right." In other words, I'd rather have untrue faith push me to do what's right, and not do wrong acts, then to treat others unfairly, and die without any hope for after life. Now, getting past that argument, if you don't mind me saying, how is it that Evolution has comforted, or dried a tear? How is it that evolution has ever healed an injury, or given hope to those destined to die? These are partially rhetorical btw. Alright, getting past that, for my third point about evolutionism. How is it, that in your belief, the order begins opposite to what it is now? Lets suppose that what you're saying is true, and that Big-Bang/Reverse-bang, doesn't matter for this argument how it started, the point is, how did it switch from getting more advanced, to what we know for a fact now, deterorating. If you leave a watch's parts out for 50 years, it will rust, and get molded back into the ground, it won't turn into a watch. How did it switch from Monkeys turning into Humans, to everything deterorating. Does that mean that in another Quadrillion years Humans will turn into monkeys again? Alright, now for the final subject, Christian Generalization. Twice it is said in the Bible, "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins." Therefore I think the same could be said for being associated with other Christians in the fact that say Denomination A persecuted non-believers for not believing. 1000 years later, is Denomination A still held responsible for sins of millenia past? I would say no by the evidence of the scripture above. Does that mean we should be ignorant of our past? Again, I would say no, I don't have evidence for this, but while ignorance may be somewhat bliss in its own way, we need to grow up, and accept that we've sinned, but strive for better now. Evangelism by actions as well as words. imo by evangelising you are showing through your actions as well, so a combination imo is best. Believe it or not, it takes guts to evangelise, sure it gets easier as you do it, but starting out, its nervewracking. Can't say much else of worth on this. As for Jesus Freaks being the minority, I would say I partially agree, here's what I think would be an accurate description. True Believers/Jesus Freaks: Small (I'm not saying numbers so you guys don't get fussy) Sad, but its how it is imho. This is all opinion here, I have no surveys, no real recounts of research. Worst Condemnation: Switching name from Christians: No-Responsibility/Put on the Cross: Post-Post Stuff. Also to Crazyishone, this sounds really perverted, but I'm glad that your here, and I respect you, while I may not agree with your beliefs, at least you're not gullible. I think you bring a good balance here. Of course I know you're more of a vet than I am. ]Good night everyone, and I hope God blesses your sleep. [JOKE]Crazyishone, since you don't believe in God, I hope you evolve well in your sleep. jk[/JOKE]
[This message has been edited by Mene-Mene (edited August 21, 2007).] |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
Hey mene-mene. If you were at a Bible study, you'd be right on. But when in mixed company, remember a few things: 1)don't assume that a non-Christian accepts the theory of evolution, and especially the "Big Bang". 2)You can't back up an argument with a non-Christian via Biblical references (for the most part). They just don't accept it. I mention #1 because you got me wrong. I believe in a mild form of evolution. You also assumed I don't believe in God. Concerning God, I'm not sure if I believe or not. What I do know is that if His existence is a given, then I believe He does not intervene often. I believe He may have essentially "started things up and let them take their course", intervening when He thought necessary, or not at all. I believe that the content of the Bible that doesn't relate to history is potentially fictitious. (We can talk about this in another thread if you want.) Because of my personal uncertainty, forming solid arguments with consistent points is often difficult. I've learned to accept defeat on some points, often at the hands of guys like Arch or Han. They can debate on my terms and still "pwn" me. I can't really contend alot of your points, because you offer evidence from the Bible and accepted Christian beliefs. I don't hold them with as much value as you do, so we'd really be getting nowhere. Now you did accuse me of trying to set up straw man arguments... understand that its not always intentional. In a bit of irony, you used another form of "straw man" by misrepresenting my arguments. I don't think it was an intentional thing, just a misunderstanding on your part or a miscommunication on mine. ------------------ |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
well, religion is a organized system of beliefs concerning deities or the supernatural. A bit different than a governing body. Religion isn't restricted to an authority hierarchy. anyhow, about the Christian Religion, there are flaws in it. there are people who are perverting it. But by disassociation with the name of the religion, you're just going into denial. EDIT: Alright, well, I was under the assumption you held the basic beliefs of christianity. ------------------ [This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited August 21, 2007).] |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
Well I think most of us have noticed by now this isn't Catholic coders. Even Lutherans, the closest thing to Catholicism that is protestant, don't associate themselves to it by name. Granted, you were personally never a Catholic, but I'm addressing a principle. ------------------ |
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CPUFreak91 Member Posts: 2337 From: Registered: 02-01-2005 |
quote: Actions speak louder than labels though . I think now, that if I started a debate with a skeptic I would not go digging up muddy Christian history like he would. I would prove that true, strong, Christians are not like those who in the past, made mistakes. I would focus on the here and now as well as the future. Find what captures your audience's attention and focus on it, not every one other their attacks against you. Hmmm. Does this even fit what we're talking about? :S ------------------ "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." "Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala. |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
I can sit here and attack points all day. I start losing when somebody challenges my personal beliefs. (ARCH.) I just don't have them in line right now... ------------------ |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
I don't challenge your beliefs as a personal vendetta against you, and I came on a bit strong and I'm sorry for that. I didn't mean to pick on you. however, I'm not apologizing for challenging your beliefs. It keeps us from being "brainwashed," from any side. I expect others to challenge my beliefs. Stirring the water keeps us from getting stale. ------------------ |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
quote: You might try showing the courtesy of quoting the entire sentence instead of just the half you think you can bring down easily (the very essence of a straw-man argument). The entire sentence contains a couple of concepts that you might not like, but you not liking them does not render them false or inconsequential. The entire sentence is: quote: You see, there is no double-standard at all. Rather I am holding you to the exact same standard to which I hold myself: Your own actions; your own sin. You put Him on that cross through your own actions. The only difference between us is that I have repented. If you do not, that is your choice of action, and without repentance you will pay the full and complete consequences for your own actions. You are surrounded by missionaries here, so you cannot claim that you have not heard, because—whatever happens on that hypothetical island—you have heard and like it or not that makes you responsible for your choice of response: repent or pay. You have only until your last breath to decide, but that last breath might not even be 5 minutes away, so the time to decide is the moment your are in—right now: repent or pay the price for your own actions. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
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Mene-Mene Member Posts: 1398 From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA Registered: 10-23-2006 |
Reading Crazy's post it makes me want to hang around here more. Wow! What a good, light response in a heavy topic.
quote: sry, it was late, and I though I saw you saying you believed in Evolution. quote: I know that you can't use the Bible for a debate against a non-Christians beliefs, but I was using it due to the fact you were challenging that Christians should be responsible for our spiritual forefathers sins. Therefore I was pointing out the true doctrine of us, and how it might relate to your challenging that because we take up the name Christian we're responsible. Thus because it had to do with our doctrine I thought it acceptable material. quote: Okay, I didn't know that, so now from this point on, I'll try to remember that. quote: Okay, you understand me, I understand you. As for why I said you had strawman arguments, it was because it appeared you were pulling one with the whole changing name thing. Forgetting the Bible this time for the Christian Generalization I still hold the same beliefs. We are not held responsible for other causes, but are responsible for being the reason of the cause. In other words. We aren't responsible for our parents sin, whether or not their reason was because of us. (ex. an aborted baby isn't responsible for his parent's aborting the baby. Even if the was influencing the reason, it still wasn't the reason behind the cause, the cause being the order for the execution) We are responsible for being the reason that directly impacted the cause, (We stole an important government document, but they executed another man for it, when the executed should have been us, I'm really shaky here, but from what I think I believe it seems like we're the ones responsible for the man's death. Had it not been for our sin, the innocent wouldn't have died.) We are also responsible for stuff we did, (If we shoot a beggar in the head with a rifle, we are responsible, not the rifle.)
quote: Wow! You raise a really good point. I'm on shaky ground here, but it would seem as if the seperation was maybe intended to represent a set of beliefs. Ex. Perhaps originally the Catholics had similar beliefs, and the Lutherans had similar beliefs thus when you say, i'm a Lutheran, it helped understanding. But regardless, It is still who you are that matters, not what label you are. I'd be interested in discussing your beliefs with you. As a light hearted discussion without the flames of course. Maybe it would be best if we did it in like an IM? If you have it, please PM me your Yahoo Messenger Account. ------------------ |
Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
For the record, the individualistic, self centered idea of Christianity as solely between one individual and God is not biblical. According to the bible, Christianity, while it does have many individual elements, is also a corperate faith. Without the Church, there is no Christianity, and the Church is more than merely a collection of individuals. Secondly, faith and brainwashing have little in common. Brainwashing is about coercing someone to give mental agreement to a set of ideas. That has nothing to do with faith. Faith is not about mental agreement, nor is it about intellectual understanding. Even if it were possible to completely erase every memory from a person's brain, it could not erase faith because faith is not a function of memory, or intellect. It is a function of spirit. There probably are quite a few christians who are brainwashed. However, accusing christianity of propaganda and brainwashing (which I have no doubt has occured within christianity) is hypocritical in the truest sense of the word. The word hypocritical literally means "under critical". The greek prefix hypo, means "under". The meaning here is that they are critical of others, but not of themselves. That is why those who accuse christianity of these things are hypocritical. The fact is that the vast majority of the people in the world have been overcome by some form of propaganda and some indoctrination. In a sense, Christianity teaches that brainwashing is necessary and an integral part of our faith. Or as I would say it, unbrainwashing. One of the core tenets of the Christian faith is that mankind, seeking self elevation, deprived himself of the necessary things for true sight and true understanding, and has left himself in a state of self delusion and self deception. Only by willingly subjecting your mind to the renewing of the Holy Spirit can that condition be undone. ------------------ |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
TallBill, I took the part that mattered. You started by saying that you're not responsible for the actions of other Christians, then moved on to say that I'm responsible for the actions of every non-Christian as well as my own. The rest of your post was just stuff about how I'll have to answer for all that when I face judgment, yada yada. You base it all on Biblical principles ; something I am choosing not to accept for the sake of this particular thread. You refer me to material I don't value. Your style must be very conducive to "brining back" a Christian in doubt. I'm sure that has great importance in your own community. Its just like the first tactic mentioned in my original post, but for those of us outside that realm of clever influence, you're not going to get anywhere. This is what I'm seeing when I read your posts: Simon_Templar, your take on things is ... an original one for this thread. I guess I should say that I have put alot of thought into my beliefs. Of course, they appear half-baked because they really are. You guys all have a book full of instructions, and anything you don't get you can just "have faith on." I have to try to pull mine out of nowhere, and find ways for them to make sense. I'm essentially fabricating a belief system in hopes that I'll get it right. I try not to be too influenced, but if there is one thing I'm pretty close to - its probably Deism. Mene-Mene, I'll set up a Yahoo account later today and send you a message. "Thus because it had to do with our doctrine I thought it acceptable material." ------------------ [This message has been edited by crazyishone (edited August 22, 2007).] |
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
quote: The Roman Catholic church is like that: the Pope said that the RCC is the only way to heaven, and if you don't submit to his (the Pope's) authority then you are going to hell. leet hacker [/B][/QUOTE] What is even more creepy about that is the current pope was in the Hitler Youth---yeah your holiness my (*&(*&(&! ------------------ |
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leet hacker Member Posts: 118 From: Hobbiton, Shire, Middle-Earth Registered: 07-30-2007 |
quote: what is even less creepy about that is that after the media said that he was in the HY, the german government said the compulsory membership had no effect on his religious bearings. ------------------ [This message has been edited by leet hacker (edited August 27, 2007).] |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
quote: Ahh, hey after re-reading the post you were responding to here, I realize it seemed like I was whining or sympathy-mongering. The point is, its only fair for you guys to go on the offensive, and its really the only effective method. I was crediting you Arch, not excusing myself. :P ------------------ |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
quote: sweet. haha. At first glance, I didn't pick up any whining, and never took you as that type. ------------------ |
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Mene-Mene Member Posts: 1398 From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA Registered: 10-23-2006 |
Crazy, I've still not gotten that message yet for YM. ------------------ |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
quote: When something/someone exists, its/their existence is completely and totally independent of your belief; whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. You have repeatedly misread everything that I have posted in this thread, and I think you're doing it deliberately. I never said that you are responsible for all sin; I said that you are responsible for YOUR sin. What somebody else does is completely irrelevant. YOUR sin—your OWN choice of action or response—is what condemns you. If you want to examine it honestly instead of claiming that what you believe has any effect whatsoever on the actual content of reality, read this, otherwise, you would do better to ignore what I am telling you, because “if you were blind, you would have no sin, but since you claim you can see, your guilt remains,” but know this: faking ignorance will not fool God. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." [This message has been edited by Tallbill (edited August 25, 2007).] |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
Well you can't prove the existence of Hell. You believe it to be real. By your own statements, a mere belief or disbelief doesn't determine reality.... or does it? Hell is very real to you. It is unreal to me. Reality is perception, and therefore individually relative. We can accept commonalities in perception and define this as "reality" and ostracize/institutionalize those whose idea of reality differs too drastically. Given that your reality is the "right one" (as yes, most things just exist regardless of how we perceive them, in some form or another) then yeah, I'm going to burn in Hell. (Or suffer eternal separation from God, you pick) I suggest at this point we lay this debate to rest: we're just not going to agree. ------------------ |
samw3 Member Posts: 542 From: Toccoa, GA, USA Registered: 08-15-2006 |
not to beat a dead horse, but... If reality is simply perception, why is it possible to stub your toe in the dark? What is real goes beyond simply what can be perceived. We don't magically fashion reality in our minds. It exists independent of ourselves. Even a quantum physicist would tell you that. So, even though the blokes in the middle ages thought that rats spontaneously generated from dirty rags, it wasn't what was real. They just didn't know about rats having sex. So, regarding hell, just because we cannot perceive it does not mean it does not exist. However, because we cannot perceive it does mean that it takes faith to believe that it exists. And the certainty of its existence relies solely upon the faith of the believer. Therefore, some can believe in things that do not exist, and some can not believe in things that do exist. Faith in God or in hell is similar to faith in the idea that the universe is inscribed almost like a hologram on the surface of a giant membrane (the brane theory). Just some humble opinions. God Bless! EDIT: FYI, I believe in God and enjoy the benefits of living in the Spirit. If I die and fade to black, and i was seriously duped, I still will have lived a free life full of passion and goodness toward mankind. And frankly, I won't care at that point what happens as the worms eat my rotting flesh. So, its a win-win situation. Heaven and eternity with the Lord, or a humanist best attempt at a fulfilling life. ------------------ Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog [This message has been edited by samw3 (edited August 25, 2007).] |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
Oh, I don't believe "its all in our heads." As I stated in my previous post, " (as yes, most things just exist regardless of how we perceive them, in some form or another)" We call it a rock, we see it as grey, we feel it as rough, etc. Regardless, the matter is existent. Your point is one I've considered a few times: if you're wrong, there is no consequence. If I'm wrong, I face eternal damnation (or perhaps reincarnation ). I think we're mostly in agreement, samw3. ------------------ |
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samw3 Member Posts: 542 From: Toccoa, GA, USA Registered: 08-15-2006 |
@crazy.. you know.. its difficult sometimes to tell where your sarcasm starts and stops I guess I'll be able to tell better as I get to know you. EDIT: btw, there could be the odd chance that allah is the boss upstairs.. in that case, since he "weighs the scales of mankind", i'll just play a sincerity card :P EDIT2: But then again... I did vote for Bush. ------------------ Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog [This message has been edited by samw3 (edited August 25, 2007).] [This message has been edited by samw3 (edited August 25, 2007).] |
Unfortunately those churches have done a lot of PR that we have to make up for.