General Christian Discussions

The m word – Lazarus

Lazarus

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Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
We were "discussing" this over on ccgr, and since there's a lot of Christian adults on here, I decided to ask - do you think masturbation is a sin?

I personally always thought that it was wrong, but I can't find any explicit Biblical command against it. Then over on ccgr it turns out some of them don't think it is wrong. (Yes I am sheltered, yes that did surprise me... *cough*)

Is it in the Bible?

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
We were "discussing" this over on ccgr, and since there's a lot of Christian adults on here, I decided to ask - do you think masturbation is a sin?

I personally always thought that it was wrong, but I can't find any explicit Biblical command against it. Then over on ccgr it turns out some of them don't think it is wrong. (Yes I am sheltered, yes that did surprise me... *cough*)

Is it in the Bible?


I have NEVER heard anything that said that could be a sin. Quite frankly---a part of growing up is developing sexual urge and better the M word (LOL too lazy to type it) than having pre-marital sex or something else---I think it was man-made religous rules that made it a sin (basically, people trying to tell God what should be right an wrong--which IMO is a joke)---it should ultimately be a private matter but it isn't a sin.

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Mene-Mene

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Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
quote:

1766, from Mod.L. masturbationem, from L. masturbatus, pp. of masturbari, altered (probably by influence of turbare "to stir up") from *manstuprare, from manu, abl. of manus "hand" (see manual) + stuprare "defile" (oneself), from stuprum "defilement, dishonor," related to stupere "to be stunned, stupefied" (see stupid). Earlier Onanism (q.v.). The verb masturbate is first recorded 1857.


If that is what you're talking about, then I would say its not a smart thing to do. Otherwise, don't look at me, I'm not wise enough to know.

My instinct says its a bad thing, so idk.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto
I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

[This message has been edited by Mene-Mene (edited July 28, 2007).]

Mack

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http://www.carm.org/questions/masterbation.htm

Some will say yes, others will say no. I think the link above describes it pretty good.

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zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
Good article---I agree with the fantasies and porn thing--not only because that is treating another human like a piece of meat (which is why I think God made it a sin--someone doing that in that context is degrading one of his creations down to a piece of meat) but also because it can landslide into criminal things such as rape and other sexual crimes---because the person needs more and more erotic situations to fufill the rush and eventually 'normal' sexual outlets such as the M word and intimacy don't cut it because they sought out an unrealistic fantasy---and this snowballs into very bad things.

Still---if it isn't with fantasies or porn I say it isn't immoral---if a person is doing it (without fantasies) in order to ease sexual tension and prevent sexual sin then I say they are working on mastering their flesh as opposed to the other way around--at the current moment they need it as a release valve but at least they have the self control to use the release valve instead of seek out fantasies and porn that can cause the negative side effects I talked about above---true best possible scenario is to be totally in control of your urges but I think that comes with maturity and growing up---not saying grownups don't do it or that a grownup doing it is wrong but still, especially for teens who have trouble with sexual urges, that is way better than out-of-wedlock sex.

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InsanePoet

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Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
Masturbation is a sin. Masturbation is one way to physically act on lust.
Masturbation is also a misuse of the human body.

I find it inconceivable that masturbation would be present when lust is absent. It seems that in order for one to occur the other must.

We would be fools to fabricate our false justifications to deceive our consciouses.

We create these false justifications to clear our guilty conscious and our self-disgust

And this is such a besetting sin that many many many struggle with and their escape is this false justification when instead
We must all call on the Holy Spirit to renew our hearts to have no desire for such acts of lustful thinking.


Masturbation builds a habit of acting on our sexual desires instead of using self-control

Masturbation will not satisfy

The "instinct reaction" of people is that it's gross and wrong. Disgusting. This is general revelation to mankind. Just as mankind knows that murder is wrong, so is masturbation.

But man will continue to deceive himself and reject what he knows is true in his heart of hearts. He knows God, but will refuse to give him proper glory.

Romans 1:18-32

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


They suppress the truth that God has made evident in their heart!

This lie that masturbation is okay is a suppression of the truth, just as it is popular to say homosexuality is natural but we all know the truth that all those things are vile, disgusting, a perversion of nature and an abomination to God.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by insanepoet (edited July 28, 2007).]

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
Hey man---calling someone a fool for not sharing your viewpoint is NOT an effective means of communication--I stopped reading your post at that point---try communicating effectively if you want to actually discuss something--not to mention I cannot think of a single scripture that condones calling someone a fool as a means to share the gospel and/or (in this case, stress on 'or') your opinion.

Even in the article Mack posted the person there blatantly says there is little to no scriptural guidance on the subject then he uses a combination of scripture and logic to guide his opinion on it--I may not totally agree with it as my logic and intrepretation of scripture differs slightly--but still it was done respectfully without bullying or name calling which causes the other side to immediately lose interest.

EDIT: changed post a little.

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[This message has been edited by zookey (edited July 29, 2007).]

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
I called no one a fool.

As for calling people a fool. It's all over the Bible. Jesus himself called people much stronger things.

As for you reading the thread or not, it is not my concern. My concern that truth is presented properly and that the younger here do not become self-deceived into thinking that it's ok to engage in the deadly deadly sin of masturbation.


Masturbation only leads destruction. Flee such things and call on the Holy Spirit and cling to Christ our savior!!!

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
All I am going to say is look at the context in which Jesus got heated at people--usually (actually, from my amateur estimate, 99.999% of the time) it was overtly-judgemental psudo-religious jerks---people like the prostitute he helped and lovingly encouraged positive changes. What would have been more powerful, to call the prostitute a fool (which, you may not have stated names but the context of your sentence was very much stating anyone who didn't agree was a fool) or to save her from the psudo-religous pharisees and lovingly tell her to lead a better life? Jesus apparantly made a decision on that one...

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InsanePoet

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Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
I got heated with no one.

I am addressing the sin of masturbation. If I am, heaven forbid, passionate about it because I happen to find sin disgusting.

I am not going to be cavalier and "discuss" it. I am speaking the truth that is evident in scripture and made apparent in our heart of hearts.

You are perfectly welcome to take my comments about this sin personally and get upset and say that "I'm not nice", but these are your actions.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
Hey man---I didn't necessarily take it personally totally (at first I did, which is why my first reply is edited--had to fix it after thinking more on what I wanted to say)---what I am trying to tell you is just identifying somehting as sin (even though, in this case, there is hardly concrete biblical evidence) doesn't warrant a holy war against people doing it. If you know a couple who is gay what is more effective? Stand outside their house with a sign that says, "God sent Aids to cure Fags' or treat them with dignity and respect and, when the subject of God comes up, let the predominant message be that God loves them and open the door for a relationship between them and God that can help fix sin in their lives? One way you are turning them against God, the other you get the distinct honor of introducing them to your closest friend---again I say look at the context of how Jesus acted and how he acted towards whom--he didn't hate or get 'passionately upset' or whatever towards sinners--he got that way towards religous people who claimed God but didn't want to get their hands messy dealing with all the sinners out there, despite the fact that when Jesus told them 'Let he who is without sin throw the first stone' none of them stood up to bat.

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InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
I am waging war against sin and the lies of Satan, one which is the false justification that masturbation is OK.

And with sin and lies of Satan I will not use the feign placebo of watered-downed words.


I want it to be made perfectly clear that masturbation is a deadly deadly sin, lest people here who are uncertain become lead down this path of destruction.


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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

Kealadon
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Registered: 07-29-2007
Zookey, we are in a situation where, I hope, everyone is familiar with the fact that God loves you. There IS a time and place for harsh words, and saying that it is foolish to try to justify masturbation is to harsh is rediculous. Don't change the subject because you were wrong about masturbation. Lust is sin and when you get down to it masturbation is an act of sexual lust, you may not be violating another person, but you are violating your self and therefore sinning before God.
zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
There have been people who made the arguement that there can be masturbation (ha! spelled it right on the first try!) without lust--just relieving sexual tension---if they are fantasizing about someone or watching porn or something YES THEN IT IS WRONG--read all my posts on it I never shyed away from that or tried to change the subject----and sorry calling someone a fool IMO is changing the subject by bulling someone into the scenario of 'agree with me or I will call you names'--we AREN'T IN THE 5th GRADE! Again I say--look at the context when Jesus called someone a name---if we want to say we want to emulate his behaivor then lets do it--although it would ultimately mean being nice to a person who masturbates (ha! spelled it right a second time!) rather than hold up a 'God hates you' sign. Sorry, harsh words used wrongly just express ignorant agression--even if a well thought out idea was behind it--and we are all capable of that ignorant aggression--which is why I edited my first post because it was slightly more hardheaded than I finally approved of so I took out the more harsh parts so the message of what I was trying to say was more prevelant.

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Kealadon
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Posts: 2
From:
Registered: 07-29-2007
Insanepoet, didn't direct the word fool at anyone, he implied that the action of justifing a sin is foolish. Jesus called his deciples fools all the time, because they did not follow his teachings. Saying that an act is foolish is not behavior of that of a 5th grader, although putting words in ones mouth is. Do you have proof that masturbation can be done with out lust? Lust must be present for the need for masturbation and if you were married I doubt you would feel the need for masturbation.
InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
I have stated repeatedly that I called no one a fool. My statements were regarding actions, not people.


I am going to be blunt, I feel that words are being put in my mouth, whether they are intentionally put or are the result of misinterpretation.

I would kindly ask that you actually read my original post instead of continuing to persist to misinterpret what I'm saying.

Please note that the topic at hand is the sin of masturbation. I would ask that this remains on topic as in I find it to be particularly important.

As for "harsh words", as I have stated before, I will not use watered down words to describe something very serious.

And I know it's serious because this is a road that I've been down before. It's a very very deadly sin. My goal is that the message that this is indeed a disgusting sin is made clear to those who are unsure, lest they be mislead.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
Lazarus. I can't believe you started this here.
I'm tired of this. I can only talk so long about masturbation.
it's not a pleasant image.

but, I'm gonna have to stand on Zookey's side.
Nowhere in the bible does it say to not masturbate.
and elevate your own morality to the level of God is arrogance of much more severity. Be careful to jump these conclusions. We need to prove it biblically first.
For example, insanepoet, the verses you quoted have nothing to do with the subject. It'll condemn masturbation only AFTER it's defined to be sexually immoral.
talk about defending a sin has no meaning in this conversation because we haven't come to agreement whether it is or isn't a sin. it's just meaningless words, now.
Actually, no, it's worth than meaningless. It's words of condemnation. You're painting everybody in this argument as advocates of evil. We're not. We're trying to understand what is right or wrong. You can believe it is a sin, but for the sake of the debate, let's try to keep things objective.

now, nobody here will justify chronic and excessive masturbation.
and if masturbation is against your conscience, by all means, do not masturbate. I'm not going to try to convince you that masturbation is okay. Maybe it's not for you.
Drinking alcohol can be fine for some people, but it can destroy the lives of others. Alcohol in itself isn't evil and Jesus made wine himself (and yes, it was strong enough for drunk people).

If it's not explained in the bible, it's between you and God to decide.
I can't condemn any action that isn't specifically condemned in the Bible first.

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InsanePoet

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Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
Does not nature itself teach us that this is disgraceful?
The word itself means to "defile oneself".... *define* oneself.
Masturbation is generally viewed as disgusting.

This is general revelation that is given to all mankind, and this itself is enough to prove its sinfulness.

But I will go further...

Again, as I have stated before, Masturbation is the accompanying act of lust. Masturbation is one way to give into lust (the other way is to actually seek out sex).

"sexual tension" is just a polite way to say burning with lust and coveting a woman who is not our wife.

Masturbation is *not* relying on the Holy Spirit to circumsize our heart and remove the sinful desires from our heart.

Masturbation is *not* freedom in Christ and freedom from the slavery of sin. Masturbation is not being a slave to righteousness, but being a slave to the sexual desires of the flesh.

Masturbation *is* sexual impurity, a sin, and an abomination before God.

Be wary not to follow the letter of the law and say, "the bible does not say 'masturbation is sin'" and conclude therefore that it's fine to practice simply to clear guilty consciouses.

The bible does not mention many things. The bible never condemns slavery. The bible never mentions drug addictions. Be wary not to follow the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

Kirk
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Posts: 73
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Observations -- homosexuality is an oxymoron -- not really sex since sex is for reproduction so it's actually mutual masturbation (MM) and is defined by Paul as a sin for both men and women.

Regarding singular masturbation (SM), there is an old wive's tale that masturbation will make you blind. That is false in the physical sense but true in the spiritual sense. Your spiritual senses are temporarily blinded by it, perhaps because your attention is misdirected from them to pleasure.

The above post is in error stating: "The bible never mentions drug addictions." This was proven wrong by Jack Van Impe who mentions the verse in Revelation 22:15 against sorcerers which in Greek is Pharmacia which means pharmacy or drugs. As you can imagine any use of drugs is an insult to the Gospel of the Kingdom in Matthew 10:7-8.

One may note the application of Rev. 22:15 to this thread topic in its last clause, "whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Not certian it applies as much as to abortion but it could.

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Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
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and yes, Kirk is right about Sorcery and Pharmacia.
but do you want to claim all drugs are bad? caffeine? Tylenol?
however, to answer your question, yes. I won't outright condemn someone for smoking pot. It's dangers are under debate but I find it to be a wasteful so I will argue against it, but on a practical, not a moral basis. addictions and other dependencies, again, I will not support.

You said that masturbation is giving into lust, but what if it could be an escape. So, I'll give you a scenario. A man's burning with lust. can't get his mind off of it. We've all had this. A quick yank and it's over. he doesn't even need to fantasize while doing it.
sure it'll come back. It'll come back if he can mentally block the images.

so now he's sinning because he's not relying on God to rid him of the sinful desires? Just like a person is sinning when he holds his breath and counts to 10 to belay his anger toward another? Just like a person is sinning when he enrolls in a support group to overcome an alcohol addiction?
God works through many ways, let's not limit Him to the uber-spiritual. He can, but He also works through practical methods.
He could raise the sun every morning and set it every night, but He instituted the scientific system of gravity and orbits.

As for the letter vs the spirit of the law. I'd argue you are following the letter. You're extrapolating verses like "don't lust after another woman" to including masturbation because it is an act accompanying lust.
The spirit of the Law is Love. Jesus himself summed it up. Loving your neighbor as yourself and Loving your God with all your heart.

and, about the "definition" of masturbation.
It's just what people called it. semantics.
A rose by any other name.
people generally agree that eating bugs is disgusting, but it doesn't make it a sin.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

Jari

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Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
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Arch, think about this way; let's apply that thought to anger: if you are angry is it ok use any means to extinguish the anger? Would God's love not over come that anger? Likewise if the flesh lusts would there be some other way to overcome the lust than feeding the lust? The flesh wont be satisfied, like said earlier in this thread.

I think there might be some misunderstanding considering what you said about eating bugs. Because there is nothing wrong eating bugs that are disgusting, they are food and serve that purpose. But things like anorexia for example isnt normal because its abusing your body's functions. Likewise homosexuality is abusing body's functions.

One more example, overeating is also abusing body's functions. It's not using/feeding the body the way God has meant it to be used. That's why these are all sins.

Jesus paid our sin dept that we may be free from sin and He doesn't want us to live according to the flesh desires anymore but live in spirit:

Rom 8:13-14
(13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

So I wouldnt get drunk from wine, nor smoke pot:

(Eph 5:18) And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

And consider that body is the temple of Holy spirit.


So we have strugle against flesh's desires, even saved by God's grace alone we are still in the body, in the flesh and we cannot serve both flesh and God.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

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InsanePoet

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Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
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Kirk, I hadn't thought of that. My goal is not to debate the use of drugs in the bible. You are probably right in that regard that drug use is mentioned. I was using it as an illustration that the bible doesn't necessarily explicitly declare everything as sin which is a sin. Drug addition is a sin, and although perhaps mentioned, it is not explicitly and clearly condemned.

We have been given a clear guild line, a spirit colored lens to see the world through, and although not every sin is explicitly declared as sinful we can determine it's nature by viewing it with the holy spirit.

As for arguments that say that it's not a sin because it's not specifically declared, I warn strongly not to live by the letter of the law, but by the spirit of grace. And I also warn not to manipulate the Word of God to an interpretation that is more suitable. For these are the sins that the pharisees were guilty of, and the manipulation of truth into a lie is ultimately the work of Satan, the father of lies.

With masturbation, I believe the argument is that the bible doesn't explicitly say it's wrong. I am saying that masturbation is carrying out the desires of the flesh and it always tied with lust.

As for arguments saying that masturbation can be separate from lust, I maintain is a false argument. Even if this argument can be valid, 99.9 percent of the time it IS tied with lust and it's always a misuse of the body.

And as for declaring an acceptable act, be wary of scriptures warnings.

Matthew 18:6

"but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

Declaring masturbation as an acceptable act to "relieve sexual tension" will cause those to freely give into their lustful cravings and disobey the Word of God.

[This message has been edited by insanepoet (edited July 29, 2007).]

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:

You said that masturbation is giving into lust, but what if it could be an escape. So, I'll give you a scenario. A man's burning with lust. can't get his mind off of it. We've all had this. A quick yank and it's over. he doesn't even need to fantasize while doing it.
sure it'll come back. It'll come back if he can mentally block the images.


This sounds like a fabricated justification to ease the guilty conscious. Masturbation is the fulfillment of lust. Those who lust will either turn away from lust or be lead to masturbation. Masturbation is not an escape from lust, it is seeking out the desires of the flesh.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:

now, nobody here will justify chronic and excessive masturbation.
and if masturbation is against your conscience, by all means, do not masturbate. I'm not going to try to convince you that masturbation is okay. Maybe it's not for you.
Drinking alcohol can be fine for some people, but it can destroy the lives of others. Alcohol in itself isn't evil and Jesus made wine himself (and yes, it was strong enough for drunk people).

If it's not explained in the bible, it's between you and God to decide.
I can't condemn any action that isn't specifically condemned in the Bible first.


Amen bro you hit it! I agree with you 100%----if someone asks you about it, instead of jumping on the man-made-lets-play-church-high-horse lovingly encourage them and try to help build a bridge between them and God so God can give the appropriate guidance for the situation. I wouldn't say we should knock Laz tho---he had questions that apparently started a fight on CCGR before he got answers and thought he could get some answers here---hopefully he did but either way it is sad that it degraded into a flame war here too.

EDIT: Adding additional stuff below

My personal view is right now I doubt we will get resolution on this issue---I personally believe this has kind of become a flame war and isn't doing anything to gain anyone any more knowledge so should we just agree to disagree and let the topic fall into obscurity and/or get locked? I don't think anyone can make a convincing arguement we will get one way or another with anymore posts on it---just my personal view.


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[This message has been edited by zookey (edited July 29, 2007).]

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
and yes, Kirk is right about Sorcery and Pharmacia.
but do you want to claim all drugs are bad? caffeine? Tylenol?
however, to answer your question, yes. I won't outright condemn someone for smoking pot. It's dangers are under debate but I find it to be a wasteful so I will argue against it, but on a practical, not a moral basis. addictions and other dependencies, again, I will not support.

You said that masturbation is giving into lust, but what if it could be an escape. So, I'll give you a scenario. A man's burning with lust. can't get his mind off of it. We've all had this. A quick yank and it's over. he doesn't even need to fantasize while doing it.
sure it'll come back. It'll come back if he can mentally block the images.

so now he's sinning because he's not relying on God to rid him of the sinful desires? Just like a person is sinning when he holds his breath and counts to 10 to belay his anger toward another? Just like a person is sinning when he enrolls in a support group to overcome an alcohol addiction?
God works through many ways, let's not limit Him to the uber-spiritual. He can, but He also works through practical methods.
He could raise the sun every morning and set it every night, but He instituted the scientific system of gravity and orbits.

As for the letter vs the spirit of the law. I'd argue you are following the letter. You're extrapolating verses like "don't lust after another woman" to including masturbation because it is an act accompanying lust.
The spirit of the Law is Love. Jesus himself summed it up. Loving your neighbor as yourself and Loving your God with all your heart.

and, about the "definition" of masturbation.
It's just what people called it. semantics.
A rose by any other name.
people generally agree that eating bugs is disgusting, but it doesn't make it a sin.



You still have to live knowing that a guy has pleasured you (albeit yourself), i would rather sleep in the knowledge, that the only pleasure i get is from a female, my wife.

Masturbation is all a bit gay.

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Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by zookey:
Amen bro you hit it! I agree with you 100%----if someone asks you about it, instead of jumping on the man-made-lets-play-church-high-horse lovingly encourage them and try to help build a bridge between them and God so God can give the appropriate guidance for the situation. I wouldn't say we should knock Laz tho---he had questions that apparently started a fight on CCGR before he got answers and thought he could get some answers here---hopefully he did but either way it is sad that it degraded into a flame war here too.

Yeah, that about sums it up.

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
The Answer:

Lust: "uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite"

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Romans 13:14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-5
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God;

2 Timothy 2:22
Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

1 Peter 2:11
Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

1 Peter 4:3
For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Ok, that covers "lust"

Now for another one:

Debauchery: "excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures; intemperance"

2 Corinthians 21:12
I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

Galatians 5:9
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;


Now here's another word we can define:
Sodomy: "Sexual intercourse that is not the union of the genital organs of a man and a woman. The term is most frequently applied to anal intercourse between two men or to sexual relations between people and animals."


Masturbation is a sin. It's not just an issue of the conscious, like we are somehow a judge of morality, this is a lie!

Anyone engaged in such behavior I encourage to put it off, for it is a evil work of the flesh.

Put on the new man the scripture commands us! We are not slaves to our lustful desires but meant to be a slave to righteousness!

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
do you think masturbation is a sin?

Yes.

As one who was enslaved to sexual oppression (and still struggles with it) I can tell you that it won't bring you or anyone else any good. It's selfish self satisfaction as you bow before the idol of your flesh and drink from pool of desecration. Its a dark path that will lead to darker things.

If you burn, drown it in Spirit. It may sound corny but it works; hit the Bible, hit up God, take your focus off of it and onto God and itll simmer down.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
D-SIPL, apparently you didn't know I was gay, too.

InsanePoet, I'm glad you defined Lust, debauchery and Sodomy.
now Masturbation is commonly associated with lust but it is not lust itself. It's self stimulation. Lust is of the heart and masturbation is an action.
if you masturbate, it'd be the lusting and the fantasizing that'd be the sin and not the rubbing one off. So you can argue against lust all day, and I'd agree with you on it, but it wouldn't change anything about masturbation. the topic of masturbation is still left unexplained.

as for debauchery, I've already stated that we're against excessive masturbation. and none of us will say sexual pleasure is a sin. We're meant to enjoy sex with our respective wives.

and sodomy. well. that really has nothing to do with any of this.
and yes, I was joking. I'm not gay.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
D-SIPL, apparently you didn't know I was gay, too.

InsanePoet, I'm glad you defined Lust, debauchery and Sodomy.
now Masturbation is commonly associated with lust but it is not lust itself. It's self stimulation. Lust is of the heart and masturbation is an action.
if you masturbate, it'd be the lusting and the fantasizing that'd be the sin and not the rubbing one off. So you can argue against lust all day, and I'd agree with you on it, but it wouldn't change anything about masturbation. the topic of masturbation is still left unexplained.

as for debauchery, I've already stated that we're against excessive masturbation. and none of us will say sexual pleasure is a sin. We're meant to enjoy sex with our respective wives.

and sodomy. well. that really has nothing to do with any of this.
and yes, I was joking. I'm not gay.


I was wondering how you could be gay and have a crush on the E-Surance chick LOL!

Honestly, I don't care anymore---my view remains absolutely the same and I doubt that any headway will be made in this topic (on either side) so I just figured what the heck LOL.

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Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
I think the true question one should ask is can you masturbate without lust?

Personally I can't imagine that, so I would say masturbation is done in conjunction with lust and falls under the same definition as a sin.

I would be interested if anyone could say they can masturbate without lusting? Honestly?

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Langley:
I think the true question one should ask is can you masturbate without lust?

Personally I can't imagine that, so I would say masturbation is done in conjunction with lust and falls under the same definition as a sin.

I would be interested if anyone could say they can masturbate without lusting? Honestly?



This is what I've been saying all along.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
In my early teenage years I struggled with masturbation for 3 years in silence. This unrepentant sin caused much agony for me.

When I was about 17 years old, I spoke to an elder that I had high respect for. This was the smartest move I've made. It changed my life and brought me out of the slavery of lust and masturbation. Now, obviously, I still struggle with it just as any man does, but I am not living *in* this sin and when I do fall to the temptations of lust, it's an exception, not the norm. And every day since I have grown increasingly resilient to it's pull.

If anyone here struggles with this same sin to the point where it is the norm. I will encourage you to do as I have done.

James 5:16
"Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much."

We have been caught up with no sin uncommon to man, but by the Lord Christ we have been purified and made righteous before God. So lift up your heads to gaze on the eternal King, and not the flesh of this world!

Run forward in victory the great race set before us, laying aside every encumbrance!

Now, this is where I will get personal.

Zookey: You are stubborn in your argument of your intellectual justification of something which is clearly an outworking of lust. You claim, "this is pointless, we won't ever agree". My point is not to make everyone here agree with my line of thinking, but to present the truth accurately so that all may here and some may repent.

Zookey, regardless if masturbation can be separate from lust (which I maintain it never is), it will almost always be. Saying to anyone, especially teenagers that "masturbation is ok" will not lead them into righteousness, but mislead them into being enslaved to lust. I will point you to a passage I quoted earlier saying that it is better for a man to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck and he be drowned into the see if he causes the young in Christ to stumble.

Zookey, you mentioned several times accusing me of calling people fools and starting "flame-wars". I would encourage you to note that I stated several times that I was very careful NOT to direct my comments at any one particular person. I was being very intentional to direct my comments on the actions being discussed.
Passionately and intensely describing a sin and a hate for it is not a flaming. However, persistent false accusations are.

ArchAngel: As I have said too zookey, I would be very hesitant to declare something to be an acceptable act, that even if it can be separated from lust (which I maintain it cannot be), it will almost always be tied to lust. Doing so is very damaging to those who are weak in this regard and causes them to stumble.

Lazarus: Your instincts are correct, masturbation is wrong. Do not allow yourself to become deceived into thinking it's acceptable. Masturbation is the direct outworking of lust. Flee far away from this sin. We all struggle with it, I plead with you, do not allow yourself to become a slave to the works of the flesh.


Brothers, I plead you! Do not fall victim to the deceptions of your heart! Rely on the spirit for your guidance and sustenance. It is only in Christ we find satisfaction and there is no satisfaction in the dead works of this world!

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by InsanePoet (edited July 30, 2007).]

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
the act of masturbation can be done without lusting, but it can't be pursued without lust. you can masturbate without fantasizing (infrequently done, I admit, and a bit more boring), but you'd have to be in the mood to begin with.

but isn't any sex a direct outworking of lust? lust being, as you defined, a uncontrolled sexual desire. A man can have that for his wife. and none of us will say that a man can't want to have hot hot sex with his wife.
... is it okay to masturbate to an image of your wife? maybe like on a business trip?

I do want to make this clear. I'm not arguing to say it's acceptable. It's a touchy issue and I still hold it's not clearly stated in the Bible. It should be brought up in prayer. Everything may be permissible, but not beneficial.
I'm can't condemn any Christian for masturbating because it's not clearly written and out of fear of hypocrisy.

and no, I'm not justifying it for myself, either.

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
I'm can't condemn any Christian for masturbating because it's not clearly written and out of fear of hypocrisy.

Well said... though if you (or anyone, not specifically meaning you) condemn any Christian for their sin then I would question your motives. The Lord does not to teach us to condemn our brothers and sisters when they sin, to do so would seem to be more under the motive of lifting themselves higher by lowering others.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
the act of masturbation can be done without lusting,

Prove it. I'm maintaining the fact that lust and masturbation are completely inseparable. Even if it could be, as I have stated *repeatedly* you ought to be VERY wary to take such a cavalier position in the presence of youth on such a position.

quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
but isn't any sex a direct outworking of lust? lust being, as you defined, a uncontrolled sexual desire. A man can have that for his wife. and none of us will say that a man can't want to have hot hot sex with his wife.

We are not talking about a man's lust for a wife. We are talking about lust that leads to masturbation, not lust for a man's wife that leads to sex in the proper context.

quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
I do want to make this clear. I'm not arguing to say it's acceptable. It's a touchy issue and I still hold it's not clearly stated in the Bible. It should be brought up in prayer. Everything may be permissible, but not beneficial.
I'm can't condemn any Christian for masturbating because it's not clearly written and out of fear of hypocrisy.

1 Corinthians 6:12-20
"Everything is permissible for me"but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"but I will not be mastered by anything. "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.


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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by InsanePoet (edited July 30, 2007).]

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
*sigh* now we're back to square one.
Yes, I know sexual immorality is wrong.
it's wrong by definition.

we're still working if masturbation is sexual immorality.

wait? prove it? what.. um. claim I did it?
I wouldn't really feel comfortable doing it in front of someone else.

and you haven't answered my question. Is it okay for a married man, while on a business trip or for another reason, to masturbate to the image of his wife?

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:

wait? prove it? what.. um. claim I did it?
I wouldn't really feel comfortable doing it in front of someone else.


So this sounds like a highly hypothetical argument that masturbation could occur without any lust.

Sounds completely unproven to me. And all evidence would suggest that It cannot exist without lust.

I would not base spiritual values on unproven hypothetical arguments.


quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:

and you haven't answered my question. Is it okay for a married man, while on a business trip or for another reason, to masturbate to the image of his wife?


No, that shows that his wife is a mere object to please his sexual desires. Sex is far more than just physical sensuality. A man masturbating to his wife cheapens the relationship and ultimately degrades the value of marital sex.

It is this kind of behavior that destroys marriage or leads to other behavior that destroys marriages.

One day his wife will fail to please sexually and he will look elsewhere for pleasure.


I still maintain that masturbation is a direct OUTWORKING of lust. It is the ACTION that corresponds with mental activity. And Lust is a NECESSITY for the act to physically occur.


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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by insanepoet (edited July 30, 2007).]

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:

I'm can't condemn any Christian for masturbating because it's not clearly written and out of fear of hypocrisy.



No, but you can condemn actions. No one has been condemned here. Just actions.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
well. I'm done. You clearly want to condemn masturbation no matter what.
well, I hope the best for you and that you'll never rub one out.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
but isn't any sex a direct outworking of lust? lust being, as you defined, a uncontrolled sexual desire. A man can have that for his wife.


You're obviously not married if you think healthy marital sexual intercourse is an outworking of "uncontrolled sexual desire." It's more like tempered and controlled sexual desire. It's better and more fulfilling than lustful fornication, since it is no longer a selfish act, but giving and receiving and an expression of deep intimacy and enjoyment. If you are married, masturbation is a selfish act that serves yourself and denies your spouse, causing separation. I feel that to do that as a single man to "quell" lustful thoughts is going to do _exactly_ the opposite. I'm not proclaiming it as a sin, but just giving some seasoned advice. I would argue strongly that it is sinful if you are married, business trip or not.

Regarding the business trip, be patient, and when you get back, it'll be worth the wait.

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
sexual desire is sexual desire. I don't need to be married to know what it's like. A married man wants to have sex and has biological impulses to push him that way. I highly doubt anyone can honestly claim that marital sex is purely subliminal.
what if your wife thought it was hot that you masturbate? some kinda kinky sex thing. or maybe she wanted phone sex or something? again, just drawing up scenarios trying to see where you draw the line.


Doh! I said I was done... thanks alot, Steveth. lol.
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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited August 03, 2007).]

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
sexual desire is sexual desire. I don't need to be married to know what it's like. A married man wants to have sex and has biological impulses to push him that way.


That's one part of it, but you actually do need to be married (or in a similar relationship--which is pretty much marriage without the legal documentation) to understand "what it's like." Actually, both the husband and the wife have impulses at various times. Things like good communication, trust, and serving can often increase these impulses. Masturbation absolutely kills them.
quote:

what if your wife thought it was hot that you masturbate? some kinda kinky sex thing. or maybe she wanted phone sex or something? again, just drawing up scenarios trying to see where you draw the line.


This is like asking if its alright to throw your baby in the river if he has gills. Sure, go right ahead. Seriously though, this whole issue is pretty much cut and dry for almost all married women. When you are married, your body literally belongs to your spouse. If she doesn't like what you are doing with your body, it's wrong. 99% of the time, that's the case.

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

[This message has been edited by steveth45 (edited August 03, 2007).]

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by steveth45:

I would argue strongly that it is sinful if you are married, business trip or not.

You would not proclaim it a sin if married, but yet not a sin necessarily to the unmarried.

It just seems inconsistent to me.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by insanepoet:
It just seems inconsistent to me.

I personally believe it to be sinful outside of marriage as well, but I don't find the scriptures as perfectly clear on that topic, as you do. So, I encourage people to not do it, but I don't strongly argue that it is sin. It's not my job. People have consciences and they have the Holy Spirit, if they know Jesus, so I let them come to some conclusions on their own. I don't dictate everybody's interpretation of scripture, despite it becoming quite fashionable to do so here on CCN. We have express rules here that say we need to allow for differences of opinion. I totally understand your point of view, and respect that. I don't know why you feel you need to bash mine.

My views are merely inconsistent with yours--slightly. They are perfectly consistent internally. Yes, certain actions may be considered sinful while married, but not sinful while not married, like pursuing marriage with someone you are not married to. It's perfectly normal and acceptable while single to seek a spouse, but I would see that as a sin while married to run off and start "courting" other women. Of course, I'm not saying that masturbation isn't sinful for single people, I'm just saying, like others, that I find the scriptural support for that viewpoint (which I share) to be less than crystal clear.

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|steveth45|
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[This message has been edited by steveth45 (edited August 03, 2007).]

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
Deuteronomy 5:21
You shall not covet

Which means that you must not desire basically anything that does not belong to you. That includes the woman that you are thinking of while you are masturbating (don't even consider masturbating without fantasizing about someoneit cant be donethe images will come, whether you want them or not).

Matthew 5:28
anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This is a matter of your sinful mind at work. Wherever the images come from, be they in your eyes or in your mind, if you do not rebuke them you are committing adultery.

Deuteronomy 5:18
You shall not commit adultery.

The chain of deduction is actually rather obvious. Masturbation involves sin.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by Tallbill:
Deuteronomy 5:21
You shall not covet�

Which means that you must not desire basically anything that does not belong to you. That includes the woman that you are thinking of while you are masturbating (don't even consider masturbating without fantasizing about someone�it can�t be done�the images will come, whether you want them or not).

Matthew 5:28
�anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This is a matter of your sinful mind at work. Wherever the images come from, be they in your eyes or in your mind, if you do not rebuke them you are committing adultery.

Deuteronomy 5:18
You shall not commit adultery.

The chain of deduction is actually rather obvious. Masturbation involves sin.


Preach it brother!

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
mind if i ask you guys what ccgr is?
and i just think the m thing is just plainly nasty ,other than that i think it's somwhere close to the sin of homosexuality ,i just had to speak against this sin sorry if i dug up an old thread.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
ccgr is Christ Centered Game Reviews.
Several people here are on the forums (Laz, Xian, myself and recently Jari).

masturbation is close to homosexuality? I'm sorry. that's a stretch.
You aren't doing it out of attraction for yourself.
I guess if your fantasizing about a guy (or a girl if you're a woman), it'd be pretty gay.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
i was just saying the nature is close,they are both violating natural law.

and it's [/B]to a certain extent almost[/B] as perverted(imho).

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Simon_Templar

Member

Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004

This is a touchy issue for most men, no pun intended.

What I have to say is from my experience.

The first point I would make is that lust is like a drug. Giving in to it never really satisfies it, it just makes the temptation, and the craving more intense in the long run. It is always a downward spiral.

Some people claim that they can masturbate without involving lust. I can't say that this is impossible, but its not my experience, and I find it hard to believe.

However, even going beyond that, there is more at issue here. Lust, is ultimately not merely a physical desire, that is only part of it. Lust is at its core, a misplaced desire for love, and intimacy. Pretty much all temptations or all wrong desires are misplaced good desires in some way. Greed is the misplaced desire to do well and be successful, etc.

One of the reasons that lust is a addictive, downward spiral is because of the fact that what you really desire is never being satisfied. The real desire behind it is love. Often times masturbation is used as a substitute for relationship and intimacy. That is wrong even lust aside. This is a big reason why masturbation, even in marriage can be wrong and very damaging to a relationship.

Lastly, I have struggled with lust and masturbation my whole life. I have rarely had much victory in that struggle. Yet, I can tell you that it is not impossible to live free from lust.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Xian_Lee

Member

Posts: 345
From:
Registered: 03-15-2006
Dang. I've never been this open, but I want to set the record straight on something. I grew up very sheltered, and, since I didn't see much of anything in terms of sexual imagery, I can say with absolute certainty that it is very possible to masturbate without sexual imagery and fantasies.

Let's face it, there are other potential motives for masturbation than fulfilling the desires of sexual fantasies. For example, (I might be using the wrong words here, so forgive me if I do) the buildup of testosterone for guy with no output can drive him mad, making him short tempered and brutal. Masturbation, without sexual imagery and fantasies, can help a guy keep his brutal nature in check.

You could argue that dealing with that nature is a part of owning one's body, but the grounds for doing so would be roughly the same as me arguing against alcohol consumption. Drunkenness is clearly wrong, but drinking is not. Lust and extra-marital sex are clearly wrong, but masturbation itself is not so clear.

I'm not looking to say that masturbation is right, but it isn't explicitly wrong, either. I also know that few people seem capable of masturbating without sexual imagery, but it is possible, so I would appreciate it if people wouldn't declare it impossible. There are potentially non-sexual/practical reasons to masturbate as well.

Again, I'm not looking to say that it's right, but it isn't so simple as, "these Scriptures say lust is wrong, personal experience shows it impossible to do without lust, so it must be wrong for everyone." That's all I'm saying-it isn't such a cut and dry issue like adultery is.

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Portal with information on my programming projects and links to my other work

Simon_Templar

Member

Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
I'm curious. I realize this is very personal and an uncomfortable topic, but I would like to better understand the issue. If there are no sexual images in your mind, what is there?

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Xian_Lee

Member

Posts: 345
From:
Registered: 03-15-2006
Life, work, relationship issues, what I'm going to eat later, coding woes, and, as contradicting as it may sound, Theological issues (free will, etc.).

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Portal with information on my programming projects and links to my other work

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
How does the idea actually fit in with scripture.

For arguments saying that masturbation is not wrong, all I've heard is "scripture doesn't say that 'masturbation is sin'" and "It helps alleviate the tension".

I've heard only these two arguments and variants on these. What I have *not* heard is actual scripture. And brothers, scriptures should be the authority for us, not our own ideas.

Ok, my position is that masturbation is a direct outworking of lust, but it would seem that some people don't believe this is the case.

So, under the premise that masturbation is a separate act from lust, let me ask a few questions.

With a mindset of the Gospel, how does masturbation fit in? When comparing this behavior with the what we are commanded to be like, what does it look like?

One argument is that states that the bible does not declare explicitly that masturbation is a sin. This is true, the bible does not say that explicitly. But this is only looking for sins of admission, which actions committed that ought not be. The counterpart is sins of omission, which are actions not committed which ought to be.

By masturbating, are we committing a sin of omission? What does this look like in the light of scripture?


Philippians 4:8-9

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirableif anything is excellent or praiseworthythink about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in meput it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

Does masturbation sound like dwelling on such things?

One counter-argument may be that masturbation alleviates the tension so the mind can focus on good things.

But are we so feeble to think that this is going to do us any bit of good?! Masturbation is not the antidote to such sins! The very verse mentioned above is! And what is this verse talking about? What is this verse describing? In a sin cursed world, what is the one thing that can meet the qualification of this verse? ... Brothers! The answer is Christ! Dwelling on noble things means to dwell on Christ! And brothers, masturbation is not Christ and it will not aid you in dwelling on righteous things. In fact, masturbation will build up habitual patterns that lead to deeper and deeper sin.

Masturbation is a sin of omission, failing to focus and dwell on Christ and this failure, brothers, is IDOLATRY! And idolatry breaks the whole of the commandment which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
Masturbation is a sin of omission, failing to focus and dwell on Christ and this failure, brothers, is IDOLATRY! And idolatry breaks the whole of the commandment which is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind.

no. Idolatry is a matter of priorities. If I take an advil to alleviate a headache, am I sinning for not trusting God for healing?
What if mastrubation was God's prescribed method for relieving undue sexual tension? lol.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
[QUOTE]
What if mastrubation was God's prescribed method for relieving undue sexual tension? lol.


Do you have any scripture to back up this notion?

Romans 8:9-12

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligationbut it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Brothers, we have no obligation to the sinful nature of the flesh! For in Christ the spirit has put to death the misdeeds of the flesh. This is "God's prescription" for "undue sexual tension" (aka. lust)

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by InsanePoet (edited August 22, 2007).]

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:

no. Idolatry is a matter of priorities.

Yes and masturbating to undue lust shows where your priorities are. It shows where your mind is and what you are relying on to save you from your sin.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
so nicotine patches are a sin?

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
so nicotine patches are a sin?


You're under the assumption that smoking is a sin.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I'd like to offer my perspective if I may, from someone's whose battled this thing and tried the "let it go, it's just a tool so you don't do something worse" attitude. That statement isn't true. It's not a tool, and it doesn't work that way. For a period of time it can work, it can help you stay steady and not go any further, you can use it, and even get to where you feel confidant that you control it, and it's good for you, and for that period of time it is. The problem I've encountered is that this tool has a "mind of its own" if you will. Over time, very very slowly, no matter how you start using it and with what intentions, it'll start to grow and get stronger, it'll start to twist you, ever so very very slightly. It'll begin to make changes in you, it'll grow, and get stronger. You can't play with this thing, you can't use it as a tool, you can't control it, because eventually it'll turn the tables and control you. It's happened to everyone I've talked to who's dealt with it (though that's a preciously small amount though). It'll draw you in and let you lay there, until you think you're safe, at least until you try to walk out on it, then you figure out exactly how deep the hooks are.

Just my personal experience, more of an ongoing nightmare of anything. The last thing I want is for anyone reading this thread on the fence to take the risk, it's not worth it, it's not useful, and it's DEFINATELY not safe, no matter where your logical or theological arguments stand on the subject.

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The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
so nicotine patches are a sin?


I dont know how those effect on your spirit but I think the whole issue is what is desire of the flesh that lusts against the spirit?

Gal 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Lust of the flesh can be simple hunger or eating sweets or smoking and since we all understand that we do eat and I believe God didnt give us the ability to taste good foods just to tease us , this is my conclusion, which is same as in Gal 5:16-17: Don't fulfil the lusts of the flesh.

Fulfil:

play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.


There are things we can think we need but lusts of the fleshs are deceitful (Eph 4:22) and the truth is that we can overcome temptation and change our life style by God's power.
I know He has changed me in many ways on many things which I thought we're impossible or that it was just the way we are.

Don't worry , Jesus has paid your sins and wants to deliver you from evil lusts of the flesh so that you may be free from that sin that is nectagling you - that is your spirit.


I think some people reading this thread maybe afraid to face the truth because that would condemn them. But dont worry! God really can deliver you from this and that is God's grace that even you live by these things now He can change you.

Just remember that that all the dept of your sins is paid! In the blood of Jesus. So why would we sin anymore?

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited August 22, 2007).]

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
Originally posted by insanepoet:
You're under the assumption that smoking is a sin.



I'm under the assumption that a person wants to break the smoking addiction but isn't "relying" on God.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
look here people masturbation is a really perverted thing to do,i will be open and blunt here because some of you need to here this:
masturbation is having a sexual intercourse with your own self,moreover with your own hand,is that the purpose why you have sexual organs?

was sex meant to be a method of relieving stress? no it's a means of making babies.

that is why i compared it to homosexuality,homosexuality is wrong because you are having sex with a person of the same sex and that is a hughe sin because you just changed the natural law that a man should have sex only with a women, in masturbation you are doing the same thing except instead of the opossite sex you are using your own self.

you are using something other than a women to fulfill your sexual desires.

before i was born again i use to do it a lot,and i use to watch porn and stuff,but when i got born again i repented of all my evil ways and i haven't done that since then, lust and all that i admit is hard and i fall to that trick the devil plays on you once in a while ,after i stopped doing the "m" thing i had trouble with that,i use to have wetdreams and stuff which are wrong too(even in your dreams you shouldn't sin),and every time i had a wetdream it felt like i was going back to square 1 but i didn't give up,and i hadn't had a wetdream in a long while.

my whole point is don't give up and keep fighting the enemy,think about it and realize what a sick and perverted thing masturbation is.

all in all there is a big difference beteween lusting after a women and loving a women,the difference is you don't need sex or the desire to have sex to be in love.but in lust you do.

moreover if you answer me why homosexuality is a sin i could probably show that masturbaion for the same(or similar) reasons is a sin.

if they had masturbation back in the time "Leviticus 18" was written it would probably have been included in there.

here is what archangel said:

quote:

What if mastrubation was God's prescribed method for relieving undue sexual tension? lol.

the method for relieving undue sexual tension is hell(at least failure to control the tension which you can) man where have you been all the time?

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by spade89:

the method for relieving undue sexual tension is hell(at least failure to control the tension which you can) man where have you been all the time?


Dude you need to be careful saying stuff that isn't Biblical----only Jesus can save you from hell and whacking off will **NOT** step in the way of Salvation. Adding man-made rules on top of Salvation as a 'you gotta do this too to get to Heaven' is a severe slap in the face to Jesus--not only because he hated man-made-religion-rules BS but also because you are saying his gift of Salvation isn't good enough--that you also have to attain a certain level of perfection to enter Heaven. If we had to attain a certain level of perfection--why would he have to die?

Seriously. Does anyone expect to get resolution out of this thread? The issue has blown out of proportion and turned into a flame war! Can people stop please posting here so that articles that are either A) interesting or B) not a flame war populate the 'top threads' list?

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spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
zookey i think you really misunderstood what i said i was trying to say failure to control your undue sexual tentions(as archangel put it) will result in sin and sin will result in going to hell i didn't say anything about salvation.

the wages of sin/carnality is death i didn't say that the BIBLE did.

i really don't see where what i said was confusing but....

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
masturbation is having a sexual intercourse with your own self,moreover with your own hand,is that the purpose why you have sexual organs?

Masturbation, as I stated earlier, is not sexual intercourse with yourself. Very few people are so narcissistic as to be turned on by their own body and masturbate out of lust of it. It's self-stimulation of the genitalia.
They are different.

quote:
as sex meant to be a method of relieving stress? no it's a means of making babies.

our feet were meant for walking, but why can't we dance with them? Why can't we have those few cool monkey people who can play the piano with their feet?
Why do we have to assume it's guilty until proven innocent? Everything is wrong unless God specifically writes an okay for it? Pretty dismal.

besides, Sex serves multiple purposes. It has uses spanning differing reasions, such as procreation, marital bonding and stress relief.

quote:
i use to have wetdreams and stuff which are wrong too(even in your dreams you shouldn't sin),and every time i had a wetdream it felt like i was going back to square 1 but i didn't give up,and i hadn't had a wetdream in a long while.

wait.. nocturnal emissions are a sin? That's the body's natural way of relieving semen build up! You could die of prostate cancer if it wasn't for that (or masturbation, or sex).
and no, dreams are a matter of "sorting out" memories, not some fantasy you live out. One could almost calling it the brain's defrag. A dream isn't a sin.

quote:
if they had masturbation back in the time "Leviticus 18" was written it would probably have been included in there.

I will pretty much guarantee you there was masturbation long before then.
Unless I'm mistaken, we've seen early paintings depicting masturbation.
Slightly awkward to look at. Always wondered why paint it.

quote:
the method for relieving undue sexual tension is hell(at least failure to control the tension which you can) man where have you been all the time?

"Hell" is separation from God. Punishment for sins. It's not a relief for sexual tension, or any other form of tension.
Where have you been? or more importantly, what bible are you reading out of?
EDIT: you clarified yourself in the above post (which I didn't read until after I posted this. Still, relief from and result of are two entirely different concepts.


quote:
Just remember that that all the dept of your sins is paid! In the blood of Jesus. So why would we sin anymore?

Jari, the argument is whether it is or isn't a sin, not whether we can be forgiven over it. You're assuming we think you're right.

quote:
Do you have any scripture to back up this notion?

Insanepoet, While everything the bible says is true, a point isn't incorrect if it's not in the Bible. That's a logical fallacy.
The bible is a small book compared to all the truth's in the world and not everything will be specifically mentioned in it. That's what prayer's for.
The point is to logically line up the contentions with the scripture and that's what's being attempted.

quote:
The last thing I want is for anyone reading this thread on the fence to take the risk, it's not worth it, it's not useful, and it's DEFINATELY not safe, no matter where your logical or theological arguments stand on the subject.
I'm not, or ever was, arguing that masturbation is fine for all. I would never do that. For some people, it's a real issue. For you and your personal experience it would be wrong for you to masturbate.
Your story can apply to drinking alcohol and a drink in the hands of an alcoholic can lead him down a path that ends with his death. But, that doesn't mean drinking is automatically wrong for all. Jesus himself made wine for a party. (and no, that wine is not like grape juice. It got people drunk)
All I'm arguing is that masturbation might not be wrong for EVERYBODY. My advice, pray about it. Seek the Lord on the issue. This is ultimately between you and Him anyways.

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited August 23, 2007).]

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
quote:
"Hell" is separation from God. Punishment for sins. It's not a relief for sexual tension, or any other form of tension.
Where have you been? or more importantly, what bible are you reading out of?
EDIT: you clarified yourself in the above post (which I didn't read until after I posted this. Still, relief from and result of are two entirely different concepts.

i guess i am misunderstood again i didn't mean that the burning fires of hell are a relief to anything,i just meant the only destination(eternaly speaking)for a sinner is hell,and that there is no relief for sin and the only outcome is hell not any relief.

quote:

I will pretty much guarantee you there was masturbation long before then.
Unless I'm mistaken, we've seen early paintings depicting masturbation.
Slightly awkward to look at. Always wondered why paint it.


i didn't think they had the things neccesary to do this thing,well anyways don't tell me how.

i think that it's wrong that you are trying to justify this sin,and don't say that it's not a sin because it obviously is the bible is not a list of sins if it were it would have been a lot bigger,there are many implied sins
like rape it's not found in the ten commandments,or how about lesbians the BIBLE says a man shouldn't sleep with another man the way he sleeps with a women it doesn't specifically say anything about lesbians but all forms of pervertedness and homosexuality are sin(huge ones).

again if you know why homosexuality is wrong then for the same reason masturbation is wrong or a sin.


[CODE]
wait.. nocturnal emissions are a sin? That's the body's natural way of relieving semen build up! You could die of prostate cancer if it wasn't for that (or masturbation, or sex).
and no, dreams are a matter of "sorting out" memories, not some fantasy you live out. One could almost calling it the brain's defrag. A dream isn't a sin
[/QUOTE]
if your heart isn't lusting or if your mind isn't thinking perverted thoughts then you wouldn't be having that dream would you,sin is more about the choice you make rather than the action itself,even if you chose to sin in your dreams it still reflects the desires of your heart.

quote:

our feet were meant for walking, but why can't we dance with them? Why can't we have those few cool monkey people who can play the piano with their feet?
Why do we have to assume it's guilty until proven innocent? Everything is wrong unless God specifically writes an okay for it? Pretty dismal.

besides, Sex serves multiple purposes. It has uses spanning differing reasions, such as procreation, marital bonding and stress relief.



sin is sin don't try to change that fact,we are neither judging nor making any sin or anyones sin so innocent until proven guilty doesn't work when it comes to sin it's the other way around guilty until proven innocent.
your conscious tells you right and wrong and masturbation is wrong,anyone who knows the character of GOD(or knows about) will agree with that GOD didn't give adam reproductive organs so that he can use it on himself,and that GOD does not approve of such pervertedness(regardless of the fancy words you use to reaplace the distastefulness of this sin)

quote:

Masturbation, as I stated earlier, is not sexual intercourse with yourself. Very few people are so narcissistic as to be turned on by their own body and masturbate out of lust of it. It's self-stimulation of the genitalia.
They are different.


masurbation is sexual intercourse with yourself and don't use these terms/fancy words to hide the real meaning of masturbation,if a man has sex with his wife and he is thinking of another women in his mind is he having sex or not?the answer is he is having sex regardless of who in his mind he is having sex with or with what. even if you aren't turned on by your own body that doesn't change what you are doing you are still using your reproductive organs on yourself and replacing sex,self-stimulation of the genitalia(as you put it) is stimulation of the genitalia and if the genitalia isn't being stimulated by a lady that is pervertedness and a distasteful action.

i tried to explain using your own terms(words) and i hope it helps.
stand back and look at what you are saying you are acually defending the act of masturbation as being ok in the eyes of GOD.


------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Arch, I didn't assume.
But I want to encourage every one seek for truth and be not afraid to change - because there is nothing to be afraid when it's God's miracle that by His power we are changed, made new.
Thanks to Jesus!

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by spade89:
zookey i think you really misunderstood what i said i was trying to say failure to control your undue sexual tentions(as archangel put it) will result in sin and sin will result in going to hell i didn't say anything about salvation.

the wages of sin/carnality is death i didn't say that the BIBLE did.

i really don't see where what i said was confusing but....


Nothing confused about it. Your sentence said that those who masturbate will go to Hell--yet the Bible clearly states that the only thing that determines who can/can't go to hell is acceptance of God's plan of salvation----actions like that are why people get turned off of Christianity--they see higher ups in churches lead lives like that where they try to add BS rules to a Jesus walk and the people smell something phony and get as far away as they can. You sin too. The wage for ALL sin--whether you whack off (which is questionable in its' NON BIBLICAL classification as a sin), lie to your mom or murder 1 million people--is death but Jesus paid the price for ALL of us--not just those who act and behave the way you want.

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InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by zookey:
Nothing confused about it. Your sentence said that those who masturbate will go to Hell--yet the Bible clearly states that the only thing that determines who can/can't go to hell is acceptance of God's plan of salvation----actions like that are why people get turned off of Christianity--they see higher ups in churches lead lives like that where they try to add BS rules to a Jesus walk and the people smell something phony and get as far away as they can. You sin too. The wage for ALL sin--whether you whack off (which is questionable in its' NON BIBLICAL classification as a sin), lie to your mom or murder 1 million people--is death but Jesus paid the price for ALL of us--not just those who act and behave the way you want.



While it is true that it is only by faith we are saved... faith in the work of Christ on the cross as sufficient to appease the just wrath of God, however, the Bible is clear that if this proclamation of faith is not accompanied by repentance this faith is dead.

James 2:14

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Is this saying that our salvation is merited by works? Not at all! But works are a testimony of the faith, the evidence if you will. In other words, faith without works is dead like a body without a spirit.

Scripture further commands us...

Philippians 2:12-15

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world


Brothers, faith in Christ is more than just an intellectual consent. It's more than just saying a "sinner's prayer". If we truly believe that Christ has made us righteous, not only positionally before God, but actually in our lives as we are "new creatures" and the old things have passed away, then this faith ought to change our lifestyles.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
Originally posted by jari:
Arch, I didn't assume.
But I want to encourage every one seek for truth and be not afraid to change - because there is nothing to be afraid when it's God's miracle that by His power we are changed, made new.
Thanks to Jesus!


to that, I can wholeheartedly agree.

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
"if they had masturbation back in the time "Leviticus 18" was written it would probably have been included in there."
I will pretty much guarantee you there was masturbation long before then.


I think this is a very interesting point.

Masturbation has never brought anything good into my life. Going without emission for long periods of time is certainly possible. The body has its own "pressure release valves" that peak out after a few days, and it's really not too bad. As Mack said, there are very good spiritual ways of dealing with this sexual frustration.

Still, the fact that the Bible doesn't go out of its way to explicitly mention masturbation is an interesting one. The Bible very clearly speaks with crystal-clarity about a number of sexual things, including marriage, extra-marital affairs, prostitutes, orgies, homosexuality, sodomy, and even *beastiality*.

But not masturbation?

Interesting absence for such an easy thing.

Deuteronomy 23:9-11 might be the clearest passage having to do with things like nocturnal emissions.

quote:
When you are encamped against your enemies, then you shall keep yourself from every evil thing. If any man among you becomes unclean because of a nocturnal emission, then he shall go outside the camp. He shall not come inside the camp, but when evening comes, he shall bathe himself in water, and as the sun sets, he may come inside the camp.

It calls it unclean, but it's treated almost as a regular bit of uncleanness (similar to a woman's monthly cycle or childbirth), and it doesn't sound like it's something that should be considered sin by itself.

I frankly don't see the need for masturbation -- if the body really needs to get rid of its stuff, it is perfectly capable of taking care of it through no help of your own. In addition to regular night emissions (which my body just doesn't do, but some guys have regularly), excess semen buildup is also naturally released along with urine -- having regular "wet dreams" aren't even technically physically necessary (I'll admit that the statistical health thing is another issue, but one still doesn't need to emit every day or even every week).

The danger and risks of sexual lust and sin seem increased when getting into the habits of masturbation, and so while it may be possible (and even feasible) to do what Xian_Lee is talking about, I see it almost as an unnecessary risk and it's not worth me trying. Sortof like how I don't get into the habit of drinking alcohol -- it's not that I think there's anything wrong with enjoying a brewski, I just think that the danger involved with getting into the habit of such a thing is too great for me to take -- I know myself well enough that I don't trust me to handle it in a God-honoring way, and there are better alternatives (mmm... Jones Soda...).

So yeah, that's sortof my take on it. The Bible is very clear that lustful imagery is wrong (as others have clearly laid out), but still realistic about the facts of life that guys deal with. God's got your back -- He wouldn't place you in a situation that you couldn't handle with His strength.

I think we can all agree that it's the lust that so often accompanies masturbation that is sin, and a Bad Thing (tm). If you masturbate and are having to deal with thoughts and images and fantasies that are coming to mind, then perhaps masturbation isn't for you, and you need to pursue the other ways of properly dealing with your sexual tension as a guy.

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited August 23, 2007).]

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
so, Han, let's say there is no need for masturbation.
That doesn't mean it's automatically wrong for everyone.
There is no need for computer games, it's fine for most of us.

just to reclarify myself, I'm in no way saying it's fine for all, just that it might be fine for some and to leave it for them and God to decide.
It seems I'm mostly in agreement with you.

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Soterion Studios

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
first of all i think zookey you(or possibly me) may have misunderstood the whole salvation thing,i don't think that JESUS died so that we can sin as much as we want ,sinning is a matter of choice even if you believe and all your past sins are forgiven and covered by the blood of JESUS what is GOD suppose to do if you sin after you believe force you into heaven even though you choose to go to hell(although not directly sinning is choosing evil over good ) in other words i don't think that JESUS died so that sinners could go to heaven but repented sinners, even the devil believes but he aint never going to see heaven. that and many factors.

i myself am just starting to understand salvation but as far as i know the BIBLE makes it clear that even though righteousness of works isn't neccesary for salvation repentance is. and if you sin you will be forgiven because JESUS mediates for you.

the book of hebrews after chapter 11 i think states lots of facts about salvation and sinning which got me really confused at one time, i think we should have a separate thread for this topic.

but all in all GOD is against sin and that has never changed and it never will so don't try to justify sin.

as for what you said clint it's very very possible not to masturbate just choose not to it's not even a struggle i haven't done it since i was born again which is a reasonably long time.

the only other problem i had was wet dreams and i fought that and it went away too just don't do it for a reall long time,like all other sins it has an addictive nature just put yourself in detox.

and it feels better too and looking back masturbation is something in my past which i did and am very very ashamed of doing so.

and it's not a natural thing you force it on yourself if you choose not to do it ,it won't happen it's that simple, the only reason you guys are trying to justfy it is either because if you do it you don't want to be wrong and/or you dont want to stop or if you have done it in the past you don't want to have to repent for yet another sin.

other than that your conscious tells you that it's wrong.

i use to do it a lot and i mean a lot really,i know what i am talking about but you know pray about it and i am sure GOD will change your heart,you have no idea what kind of a disgusting act it is ,once you are off it you will see how horrible of a sin it is you might even say "what have i done".

it's really really perverted ,specially if you don't have the image of a women in your brain i would hate to think what kind of an image you have?

is it of the darkness or of the light?

someone mentioned above an analogy about video games or computers not being specifically bad or something well in those cases it's all about for what purpose you are using them,gta and Christian games are differnt just as porn sites an ccn are different it's all about how you use them but when it comes to masturbation it's a result of your own lusts(fleshly lusts) which leads you into such pervertedness and it's not meant to be that way,as i said look to why homosexuality or sex with animals is wrong for the same and/or similar reasons masturbation is wrong they are all in the same class.

if masturbation is ok then how about animal sex?how about use animals instead of objects? is that not perverted sickening and distasteful for the same reasons masturbation is nearly the same as disgusting of all sexual pervertedness and abominations and you can control it.


what the world tells you is a big fat lie when he says you can't control it ,yes you can lots of people have done it.

once you stop it it's like getting off drugs or something ,free yourself .

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Xian_Lee

Member

Posts: 345
From:
Registered: 03-15-2006
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
so, Han, let's say there is no need for masturbation.
That doesn't mean it's automatically wrong for everyone.
There is no need for computer games, it's fine for most of us.

just to reclarify myself, I'm in no way saying it's fine for all, just that it might be fine for some and to leave it for them and God to decide.
It seems I'm mostly in agreement with you.


Darn it, Arch, that was almost word for word what I was thinking when I read Han's post.

I don't think I was looking to justify masturbation, so I apologize for coming across that way. Then again, it does seem odd that the burden of proof is placed on masturbation not being a sin when the grounds for declaring it such are so heavily based on interpretation and not explicit declaration of Scripture (which clearly declares all other sexual deviances, including bestiality, to explicitly being sinful). Generally speaking, when declaring something to be wrong, the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the accuser... unless if I'm dreadfully mistaken.

Anyway, I'm ready to let this topic die. It doesn't seem to really go anywhere. The only reason I posted in the first place was to point out that what was declared impossible is very much possible (though I wasn't saying that many people were capable of it... I can't know that, but I can know with absolute certainty that it is possible... and possible to be consistent in).

That's all. I resign from this thread.

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spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
quote:

I don't think I was looking to justify masturbation, so I apologize for coming across that way. Then again, it does seem odd that the burden of proof is placed on masturbation not being a sin when the grounds for declaring it such are so heavily based on interpretation and not explicit declaration of Scripture (which clearly declares all other sexual deviances, including bestiality, to explicitly being sinful). Generally speaking, when declaring something to be wrong, the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of the accuser... unless if I'm dreadfully mistaken.


first of all i didn't know that anyone was accusing anyone,we are just saying according to the scripture and according to the knowledge we have about the BIBLE and similar sins that masturbation is not only a sin but a horrible abomination and pervertedness.

as to saying something is a sin it's not a matter of court-case like legalistic argument but more of an explanation and discussion of what our conscious and our spirit tells us .

as i said before there are lots of sins that are not mentioned specifically and directly but are sins.

consider abortion,it's not specifically wriiten like "thou shalt not abort"
but it's written "thou shalt not kill",and abortion is a form of killing
but those who are for abortion would argue in the same manner you are arguing for masturbation that it's a matter of taking away the rights of the mother and that the baby isn't old enough to be called human ,but we know from what we know about a baby at that stage and even a tiny zygote that it is made by GOD and that it has life (maybe not as grown up as us)
and killing that little baby is just as the same as killing a 9-month old baby the difference is in age and not in mortality(whether alive or not) and that it qualifies as killing.

it's the same case here although it's not specifically written "thou shalt not masturbate" similar laws that forbid any act of sexual stimulation other than the one you get from your wife,for the same reasons it's wrong to masturbate,not only wrong but distasteful and perverted.

i realize that your intentions are not to justify this sin but according to your argument you are trying to justify lots of sins like gambling,drugs,rape,child abuse(pedophilia which is not specifically mentioned but you know from what the BIBLE says it's one of the worst sins ever commited),and probably many more which if asked you can't find a specific and clear commandment or law that specifically and in detail forbids that but you know it's morally wrong and seeing other commandments of GOD and the things and stories stated in the BIBLE you know that masturbation is an act of pervertedness close to(if not the same as ) other sexual abominations and sins like homosexuality and animal sex and many more, since lots of people do it most people don't like to see it as the way it is to the most they will say it's a bad sin but not as bad as the other sexual pervertedness sins.


we can keep going on about this issue but i will keep pointing out the reasons and arguments of why this sin is an abomination and pervertedness.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.