well it's been a while since i visited ccn but when i did yesterday i saw that xian_lee resignation thread and to tell you the truth i am confused about something here.

well this is a Christian site and in the Bible it is clearly stated that argument is a no-no. but arguments are allowed here. not to say that i haven't been involved in some myself but i mean argument has a destructive nature and people don't like being told not argue because at first it looks like a healthy discussion until it gets out of controll.

argument is something that works against love and friendliness ,it is one of the tools the enemy uses to lead us into a life of carnality (i know being one of his [recovering]victims) but anyways i think you guys should really think about it.

i know everyone could have a different opinion about this subject but keep in mind it still is a bad thing and i believe it should be considered one of those things that should get a thread to get closed before it gets out o f control.

i would really like to hear what the ccn admins have to say about this.

specially for someone who is new to the site showning unity and brotherly love should be the thing to do not disputes over issues. specially finding disputes purposley so that we can prove or disprove won another.

and please don't start another argument in this thread just state your opinions and think about the nature of argument and the impact it has on you other Christians and your walk of faith.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[This message has been edited by Lazarus (edited June 14, 2007).]

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 14, 2007).]

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

and no, the Bible doesn't clearly state argument is wrong.
especially if you have to tell me to "look closer."
The bible says not to get caught over trivial things, but even Paul and Peter had their arguments.
Jesus himself participated in some arguments with the pharisees.

now, should we fight? no. but argument is a very basic form of communication.

you yourself opened this topic making an argument. and argument saying arguments are bad.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by spade89:
i mean arguing to win an argument to glory in winning an argument asking a question and getting an answer is not a problem but arguing to win the topic which you are arguing over for the sake of winning it.

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Well I certainly don’t debate to loose, but I’ll quickly walk away from a debate that turns to personal degradation tactics or what not and probably (most of the time) not have discussions with that person in the future if it is on a message board especially if that is a tactic they easily resort to. Usually, such tactics are generally reserved for trolls, at least in extreme uses.

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
I don't think anyone here argued for the sake of winning an argument.

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Ever. Really. I don't think I ever saw that happen.

The "arguments" Jesus had with the pharisees usually didn't end well either...

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazarus:
Ever. Really. I don't think I ever saw that happen.

The "arguments" Jesus had with the pharisees usually didn't end well either...

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That’s when He did argue, usually He just spoke in parables to them so they could not understand or just disappeared from their sight altogether. The Pharisees were not there to discuss any issues (not all of them were at least) but were there to tare Him down and even destroy Him to protect their comfortable positions which often were bought and sold.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 14, 2007).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
but I’ll quickly walk away from a debate that turns to personal degradation tactics or what not

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If the people arguing resort to calling each other names, in order to degradate the other persons opinion, then it's totally wrong.

That was not happening in the other threads...

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

Examples:

1) Dude, that idea really sucks, I wouldn’t feed it to the pigs!

2) Dude, you are such a pig to have that opinion, you really suck [pig] crap!

3) n00b, u suxxerz, i PWND u’z cuz ur @ #%$*!

4) I respect your opinion… but only because you are a hot French chick, though I think the French suck… but you’re hot.

Example one is obviously different than the other three.

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
you yourself opened this topic making an argument. and argument saying arguments are bad.

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I assumed it was intentional irony.

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|steveth45|
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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

I do read this in the bible.

quote:

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Matthew 23:33
Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?.

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Humans are just wild creatures that have arguments at times.

Who can expect anything else?

My dogs fight a lot when eating food. I told them no, but they never listen, due to their nature.

My cats constantly kill birds and mice. How can I stop them or expect anything else? They don't listen to me.

Talk to you guys later,
Ran.

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

Sometimes, due to our earthly environment, then STRONG language is needed in an argument. Jesus in the verse above, just told a bunch of religious people that they were going to HELL and also called them SNAKES.

Now the Pharisee's knew what this meant. They know what snakes are both physically and also in the garden of eden, yet Jesus chose STRONG LANGUAGE at that time.

Therefore, I conclude that sometimes strong language is necessary in an argument. Sometimes the rosie, persuasive language and other times the harsh condeming language is needed. Yes?

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

So no debates for me, they are just waste of time. But if the other person is willing to understand then it's different. Then it's matter of being able to teach.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
I don't think anyone here argued for the sake of winning an argument.

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At least not currently here....exceptions were Warsong, Cheesestorm and his friends, etc.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

quote:

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Originally posted by gump:
At least not currently here....exceptions were Warsong, Cheesestorm and his friends, etc.

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I never picked that up from Cheesestorm.

Warsong... now... misguided, but he just always thought he was bestowing his God-given wisdom upon us.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

quote:

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Warsong... now... misguided, but he just always thought he was bestowing his God-given wisdom upon us.

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quote:

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I haven't seen in warsongs heart so that I could tell about him. But efforts to edify others should be apreaciated, even we may not agree on the doctrines.

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Some of the worst things have been done under the best intentions.

Also, having had multiple discussions with Warsong in which he would reference material, I would read said material and discover it doesn't say nearly what he was saying, refer him back to said points and get a response from him completely unrelated, I am left with beleiving his intentions weren't even good much of the time.

Saying things in a way that could come accross as to edify others but quite possibly to simply "toot your own horn" or make yourself feel empowered by demeaning others views and "incorrect" thoughts is worse than any normal argument. To me this is the equivilant of him stating truths of God while mixing them in with falsehoods that he claims are truths. To me this is what God refers to in the Bible as leading his children astray and is one of the worse things a person can do.

I cannot see in his heart, but considering I've had length conversations with him on a couple occasions I can use the head the Lord gave me... and when I do I don't see a wise teacher trying to impass knowledge, I see a naive, scared, and proud person trying to gain the image of a wise man of the Lord. I highly doubt he attempted to reinforce this self-image of himself in the best interest of the Lord, or us... and to me that is like using the Lord for selfish gains and is a much much worse thing than any other type of foolish argument.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

That sounds an awful lot like a cult member to me, much like a Jehovah's Witness or some such.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
Eastern Orthodox

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At least that is what his priest told him…

I think I’ll reserve the right not to judge war at this point, but his priest sure did have problems.

and don't start a debate/argument ,don't take the discussion from a healthy discussion to a debate and from a debate to an argument.

if this wasn't a website forum and if we had some of the discussions here at ccn up close face to face one to one , i would imagine people getting hurt some people loosing teeth,some nose bleeds etc...

j/k

quote:

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and please don't start another argument in this thread just state your opinions and think about the nature of argument and the impact it has on you other Christians and your walk of faith.

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remember what i said i will close the thread if it goes too far.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
I never picked that up from Cheesestorm.

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A seeker after truth, that was Cheese.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazarus:
A seeker after truth, that was Cheese.

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Possibly, although he did state several times he wasn't taking things seriously and was here to goof off. I took that as stating he was here for the sake of arguing. Very typical of those "atheist" (I'm not sure he even comprehends what he claims to believe) types in my experience, unfortunately.

But we can and should turn to God in prayer to ask for answers regarding arguments and other people. After all He knows our hearts and doesn't want to leave us ignorant.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

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Matt, I understand that we can strongly become to question other's motives but since we really can't know for sure we shouldn't guess.

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I respect the implication and I defnitely don't dillude myself into thinking I know anyones motives for sure (it's hard enough to realize my own lol . Though I respectfully disagree. If we don't "guess" then how can we ever respond to someone. Isn't are assumption on other peoples intentions and motives often a huge basis for how we respond to them, evaluate the situation and progress further. If we fail to use our heads to evaluate our surroundings and others intentions then I strongly beleive we are turning our backs on our senses and reason. Our senses are God given abilities in our physical nature and our reason is simply our translation of God's rules (such as reason would dictate that there is gravity that pulls us towards the earth, this gravity was established by God). So to me turning our backs on our senses and reason is like turning our backs on open doors given by God. Just like the old story goes about the man who was drowning and when multiple boats came buy offering to save him he denied them claiming God would rescue him, then when he arrived in heaven the man asked God why he didn't save him and God said he sent him two boats. Like you said next God did not state we shouldn't judge, he said we should judge others in the same way we judge ourself.

quote:

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But if we make measurements and judge others, I think it's good to first measure with the same mete to our selfs, in order to see have we really acted better towards the other person.

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I agree completely and often have to rectify myself into ensuring I do so, quoting the scripture you are basing this statement on:

[b]Matthew 7:1-5[\b]

quote:

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1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

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Note that it does start with "Do not judge"... though this ends with "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the spec from your brother's eye.". This implies that "Do not judge" is not meant literally to never judge (or this verse would be a complete contradiction), it seems to be a harsh start to bring people's focus into not judging and then a follow up for when and how you should in fact judge.

I often have to remind myself that it is in fact a God given duty to judge, otherwise we would never deem a friend or sibling in Christ in a situation requiring help, as such we would never help them. It is easy to close our minds to considering such things judging, but in truth it is. When you help a loved one with a problem they have do you not judge that they do in fact have this problem (as the scripture states about removing the speck from your brother's eye).

The message I receive from this scripture is to always double check yourself. Before you judge others use that measure on yourself and rate whether or not you truly are being fair, whether or not you truly have a deeper problem involving the same context. If so then fix your own problem first. If not (or after you fix your problem) you can see clearly to judge and assist others.

quote:

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Then think how has he acted towards (treated) us.
For example if I say about some one's post "you post doesn't make any sense" then I should have posted only sense making, clear posts my self or I'm rebuking some one of something where I have also made mistakes my self. So I should go back fix my posts and be quiet about it. (I mean to be quiet about other people's errors and announce that you have edited your posts )

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I completely agree... now you say this assuming that I have not done so? So in fact you are judging that I am judging from a non-clear perspective? Not to truly challenge you, but to reverse your advice on yourself, why do you deem that I cannot judge another while you can judge me?

quote:

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But we can and should turn to God in prayer to ask for answers regarding arguments and other people. After all He knows our hearts and doesn't want to leave us ignorant.

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I definitely agree and often find that I need to force myself to settle down and relax, pray and meditate on the thoughts and conversation, and then respond respectfully though honestly. I have done this multiple times with warsong (including responding not so respectfully) and I strongly stick to my judgement and assumption based on the information given.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

[This message has been edited by Matt Langley (edited June 20, 2007).]

...if that made any sence.

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

CapnStank:
I agree pretty near completely, only pretty near, because I want to be careful.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

quote:

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Originally posted by CapnStank:
Discouraging argument in my opinion is a bad thing. "Arguing" maturely can be a very productive process where you can learn of another's personality and beliefs.

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Similarly, if we're trying to arrive at Truth (or as close to it as we can), then it only makes sense to discuss (and even argue) with other fellow travellers -- after all, they may know something you don't know, or have thought of something that you haven't. It serves to help both parties.

Still, one has to enter into the debate with the right heart. Arguing for the sake of arguing is harmful to everyone involved.

quote:

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Originally posted by CapnStank:
It is natural human character to disagree with someone else's views or comments and we should not be expected to with hold out judgement.

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Anyways, welcome back! (for however long you stay again)

--clint

and yeah, what you said makes sense. I've been kinda saying that all along, after all.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

PS: In case you were wondering, I don't think computers are useless. :)

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~~ Peace, John 3.16 ~~

God bless.

PS. I didn't mean sound negative, just reminding of that.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)