TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
YAY!  I got to do it for once. Seriously, though, For those who are weak in faith and easily led astray, it is the Devil’s own toolchest. For those who are not so easily led, it might not seem to be the case, but consider how the effect of your playing might effect those who are easily led astray. In such a case, how does your playing measure up to Mark 12:31, or to Paul’s writings where we are exhorted to not allow ourselves to be a stumbling block for others? If we are genuine followers of Jesus Christ, we will sacrifice ourselves—including our “rights” and our “freedoms” for the sake of, or for the benefit of those who are not so strong in the faith as are we so as not to allow them to be led astray by our exercise of our “freedoms” or our “rights”. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
amen. ------------------ proverbs 25:7 www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
I've heard it said... but I haven't seen any REAL support for it. I guess if the DM goes satanic, then sure.. but that's the DM, not the game. well, either way, I'm probably gonna try it out and I can say for myself. ------------------ |
steveth45 Member Posts: 536 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
quote: You have nothing interesting or analytical to say about D&D. Instead you are speaking out of a place of ignorance and fear. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to know nearly nothing about D&D. There has historically been a lot of fear-mongering among well-meaning but uninformed Christians about role playing games in general. quote: Explain why it is a stumbling block. quote: Why should somebody give up their rights and freedoms based on someone else's uninformed opinion? The Pharisees came up with extra rules because they were afraid that people would break the Sabbath accidentally. For example, spitting on the ground might lead to somebody making clay, forbidden on the Sabbath since it resembled doing work. Jesus, to defy the Pharisees and their excessive rule-making, spit on the ground, made clay and used that clay to heal someone's vision on the Sabbath. "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." 1 John 4:18 ------------------ |
Xian_Lee Member Posts: 345 From: Registered: 03-15-2006 |
Steveth, I agree with you in that Christians often seem uninformed, and thus fearful, of role playing games in general. That being said, TallBill's point still seems valid. I don't have anything against role playing games themselves (I'm a big fan, in fact), but those weak in faith may become desensitized to real world occult or get caught up in it. In that sense, making a big deal of role playing games such as D&D around those weak in faith and those fairly susceptible to such a snare could be a stumbling block to them. It's the same reason I don't rave about games like Gears of War. What's fine for me may cause trouble for others. Even eating meat can do that. I'm getting off topic, though. In no way do I mean to say that D&D is some great evil. I don't know enough about it to make such a claim (I prefer video game RPGs like Oblivion, but those have a lot of content similar to what Christians may find fault in with D&D). We have to be careful of what we do and who we do it around, but, at the same thing, all things are permissible. If playing D&D doesn't affect your witness negatively, then I have nothing ill to say of it. Actually, I've found that Oblivion has actually had a positive spiritual impact on me. The prayers in the games, though to fictitious gods, made me ask myself why I don't pray to the One True God more often. As a result, I pray much more frequently now then I did before. In summary, D&D isn't a stumbling block to everyone, but it may be a stumbling block to some. That doesn't make D&D some great evil, but it does mean that we, as stronger Christians, should be careful of how it might affect weaker Christians. I think that's pretty Biblical. I watch a lot of R-rated movies, but I don't tell everyone else to go do likewise (I even make it a point not to rave about the majority of them to most people because I don't want to cause some desire in the people that could stumble as a result). In the same fashion, RPGs aren't usually evil in themselves (though, it is possible for an RPG to incorporate real-world occult practices and ideologies), but, just like everything else in life, they could derail someone in his/her walk with Christ. So long as our witness, relationship with God, and relationships with others do not suffer, then I see no reason for such RPGs to be a bad thing for us. But, let's not forget that not everyone else has the same tolerances we do. ------------------ |
Jari Member Posts: 1471 From: Helsinki, Finland Registered: 03-11-2005 |
TallBill said it well in my opinion. And I seem to share the same view with Xian_Lee as well. It would be bad for me if I'd not know Jesus because now all those who are in God's hand cannot be taken from Father's hand. But if I'd start seriously calling for demonic forces yet wanting to obey God it would not work out because no one can serve two masters. I am afraid for unsaved people that they might seriously try out magic and all that after learning about the idea from a game. Because it has really happened to people. I have read testimonies of ex-cultists who are now Christians who find their way to that stuff through some harmess game, video or a board game. I believe that D&D is something Satan can use to lure those young/new in faith to call other powers than what is of God, even turn to real satanic worship. But if you know your Lord, you know that no one can touch you when Jesus is with you but it will still be bad influence.
[This message has been edited by jari (edited May 15, 2007).] |
Faith_Warrior Member Posts: 490 From: So.Cal. Registered: 09-05-2006 |
mad man? :\ |
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TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
Steve, You know nothing of the paths I have walked. Calling someone who in their past has played D&D, DMed campaigns, created beasts, characters, spells and worlds and run gods uninformed because they don't hold to that which you would have them hold to is a silly and uninformed thing to do. I have simply told you what Paul himself would tell you; and I now go further in telling you that it could even be argued that in playing with such things, even such forces, you are presuming upon God, that you are testing God, even as Satan tried to get Jesus to test God in the desert. As a Christian, I am drawn, not to artful lies—whether human invented or Satan inspired is irrelevant; I am not drawn to them—but to the things of God. As a Christian, for my own protection, God has placed certain walls about me, and it is far better for me to stay back from those walls than to strive to know what is beyond them, for what lies beyond is a bottomless cliff into the pit of the netherworld from which you cannot climb out should you fall. Why be fascinated with such things? Better to be fascinated with the things of God, and to stay close by His side and tightly under His wing. Anything that leads another into sin—whether or not you acknowledge or are even aware of it—is a stumbling block that you have been to that other and for which you are responsible before God. When our LORD Himself warns of such things at the beginning of the 17th chapter of Luke’s account, He gives no exceptions for those who are blissfully unaware of the damage they have done. “So watch yourselves!” You speak of “rights” and “freedoms” as though we are actually entitled to such things when in fact we are slaves either to sin or to righteousness; and slaves have no rights and slaves have no freedoms. But you will say, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone!” But what is Jesus’ response? “I tell you the truth. Anyone who sins is a slave to sin.” The beloved apostles writes, “Anyone who claims he does not sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.” Therefore we are all slaves, either to sin, or to righteousness, having been bought with a price—even the price of His precious blood. Again, you say, “the Truth will set you free.” But how does one demonstrate that the Truth is in them; by living a profligate life and toying with the forces of evil as though they have no power over such a sliver of a splinter as we, or by daily taking up our cross and following Him, staying close by the side of the Master, tightly under His wing? Do you stay closely by Him, or do you flee from His side? Are you fascinated by the things of death, or by the Author of life? Choose now whom you will serve. As for me and my household, we shall serve the LORD. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
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Xian_Lee Member Posts: 345 From: Registered: 03-15-2006 |
I guess that my example of how Oblivion has encouraged real spiritual growth for me wasn't a very useful one. Hmm. I find that a lot of things, D&D may very well be one of them, can be viewed in such a light that true spirituality is encouraged. What defines the things of God? Man is a thing of God, and man's art can point to God (directly and indirectly), so how is that art a bad thing? Whether or not D&D itself is (for I haven't played D&D), games quite similar to it can mirror Biblical truth, struggle, and insight. As for the stumbling block issue, I thought that I addressed that in the same way that Paul would. We could say that it's wrong to eat meat because it is a stumbling point for some people, but we eat meat all the same. Instead, we work to be sensitive to the weaknesses of others. Likewise, with things like this, we need to make sure that we're not causing anyone else to sin, but that doesn't mean that the same thing is causing us to sin. ------------------ |
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
@TallBill:
quote: Well said... though I don't completely agree. First let me quote the scripture. Mark 12:31 :
quote: In response to this paragraph of yours I would argue that the content in D&D that mentions "Demons" and "Devils" share a bare minimum of similarities. I own both books, the books that are completely dedicated to covering each in detail (for starters D&D refers to "Demons" and "Devils" as completely different entities). There are obvious similarities, though most of them are founded in such complete fantasy that I would argue that if someone took them seriously and tried to relate them to true "Demons" and the "Devil" then the fault doesn't lie on the D&D content but on the person, in there case they are probably just waiting to find any excuse to go astray and it truly doesn't matter what they go astray with for their heart was already astray and their mind simply is trying to find something to justify or focus it.
quote: I disagree with that. I don't think we need to focus on just sacrificing ourself. If we sacrifice ourselves needlessly we are not only wasting ourself, but not helping the person or persons intended and that I would speculate God does not appreciate. God gave us a head for a reason. This world he created for us is governed by laws in the language of logic and reason. I strongly believe that logic and reason is one of God's many languages (including the spiritual languages) and that if we truly honor him we must accept this. He gave us these tools and a brain to utilize them for a reason and I believe to deny it is the same as denying any other gift of God, such as denying conviction. There are many things in the world that we can mis-interpret and use for uses that don't match it. I mean people blame shootings on violent video games, though if you look at the percentages obviously the majoriy (by far) of people playing these games don't express them in a way even close to a shooting. In fact there have been studies that support people expressing themselves in games these way prevent them from expressing it in real life, that it serves as an outlet. I see D&D the same way. If you truly understand the D&D concept of "Demons" and "Devils" it becomes a completely seperate entity from the true "Demons". It simply is a made up fantasy that share some minor similarities. I strongly believe by saying that this can lead you astray you give it power. You give it the power in your mind to be a crutch and excuse for those that may use it as such. When someone goes astray it is their choice. Sure if they are truly playing with "Demonic forces" then they are asking for it... though I have seen nothing in D&D that comes close to even resembling true demonic forces. All I see is a complete fantasy... grown up make believe. Sure there are plenty of cults that have founded concepts around those in D&D and sure there are plenty that attach additional concepts to it. Does that mean that everyone does? I mean lets say a cult got together and played Monopoly, lets say they attached "Demonic" concepts to monopoly and it became a "cult game". Would that make monopoly evil? Far from it... Do we let those that are lead astray define things for us, do we let the evil define our existence... I for one dont'. ------------------ |
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
@Xian_Lee
quote: I think you said this very respectfully and very well... though I disagree with this. I see a lot of people 'think' they are too weak to deal with certain things. To me if we cater to peopls weaknesses then we simply help them succeed at sustaining them. For someone to overcome something they must face it. It's just like a parent that is over protective of their child. Then when their child goes out into the world they succumb to horrible temptations. God gives us the trial by fire often... Job is a good example of this. We don't get stronger by avoiding things. Just about anything can be used for evil, even things that are good. We have all seen people manipulate the words of the Bible, the words we live our life by an the words of our Lord. Yes even these can be used for greater evil than any D&D concept. I know most (if not all) of you have seen this. Does this mean we should let those people avoid the Bible, since it may be a stumbling block? I say we should allow people to face their issues... they may fail and stumble, but that is how you learn. If we hide from the world then we aren't following the path of Jesus and I don't believe we are fufilling his will.
quote: ??? @TallBill:
quote: I would have to agree that steveth may have jumped to conclusions on your knowledge of D&D (and even further "Demons" in D&D). Though I have to admit your original post did sound a lot like the uniform concept many narrow minded Christians have of D&D, quite often people who have no clue what it is (not saying this is you, just that what you said does sound like it so I can see where steveth is coming from). I also would have to agree with what steveth said, there are many Christians who damn D&D and some that damn D&D "Demons", yet they know only heresay about it. That said, you seem to know about D&D... My next question would be, do you consider D&D as a whole evil or just "Demons" as evil... if you answer the later then I would ask about your knowledge of "Demons" and "Devils" in D&D?
quote: I can't help but see a bit of arrogance in this. So you can speak for Paul? You can fill in the blanks with what he said, you can speak for him as though you were him on something he didn't refer to directly? Up until now I've respected what you have said, even though I disagree, but now I am seeing your ego get in the way.
quote: How is playing D&D a sin. I am curious as to how you equate it to a sin.
quote: I find your reference of us as "slaves" very disapointing. I for one have joy in my belief and faith in Jesus. I am no longer a slave because of him. Like you said: "“the Truth will set you free.”" This doesn't sound like slavery to me. ------------------ |
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Xian_Lee Member Posts: 345 From: Registered: 03-15-2006 |
quote: Well said, Matt. I think that's taking the concept (as I meant it) farther than I intended, but I definitely get where you're coming from (and going) with this. I simply meant that some things are not outrightly good for people. I never meant to encourage ignorance. My concern is more for those that have a natural inclination towards the occult. Building resistance to real world issues so that they can effectively be dealt with is a good concept, but I don't think you would subject your children to gruesome violence. I don't mean to make D&D out to be the equivalent to gruesome violence for a young child, but I mean to say that some things need to be gradually moved into. I don't think I'm making sense. Sorry about that. Perhaps this is a better way to say something. We, as stronger Christians, should see to it that weaker Christians understand why we do the things we do, and why they aren't evil. Perhaps I can compare this to teaching a child to swim. You can throw a child into the deep end of a pool and say "don't drown," but that's not exactly a great idea. Instead, you help the child learn the basics in the shallow end of a pool while keeping a close eye on him/her. Gradually, you move the child into deeper waters until he/she can handle the high dive with no trouble. Likewise, this is how I think more mature Christians should behave with those younger in their faith and understanding. The high dive isn't bad, but pushing someone who doesn't know how to swim off of the high dive isn't a great idea. D&D (and other things like it) doesn't have to be evil, but it seems reasonable to be sensitive to the spiritual maturity of others. If I have a kid that looks up to me like I'm Superman, and I know he can't swim to save his life, I shouldn't go jump off the high dive in front of the kid because I don't want him to try and do likewise. Instead, I can teach him to swim in shallow water and move him towards the high dive gradually. And then, when he's not present, I can jump off the high dive all I like because I know that it isn't going to give this kid a desire to do something that he can't do with any remote level of safety. It's not that I want to give the kid the impression that the high dive is a bad thing, but I don't want him to attempt what is beyond his means. And here is where much of problems in the process of maturity takes place, I have to then teach the kid to swim well and work him towards the high dive. That way, he will actually become a strong swimmer in time, but it is a gradual process. Raising kids is a gradual process. Likewise, raising Christians is a gradual process. I'm not going to rave about something that is far beyond what a young Christian can handle in front of said young Christians. It may be something I think everyone should experience in time (such as Schindler's List), but it may not be for everyone in the current state. Instead, I encourage gradual maturity so that such things will not cause others to stumble. Does that seem reasonable? I think it does, but I'm a bit biased. ------------------ |
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
Just a quick note... love the discussion, though also would be interested in direct answers to the two questions the original thread posed:
quote: ------------------ |
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: Agreed. I think I took the extreme of what you said. After you've explained it again I'd have to mostly agree with you. I definitely think that if you see a brother or sister in Christ that is struggling with something you don't shove it in their face and offer more... there definitely is a time and place in which you should suggest a fellow Christian abstain from something (just about anything) to re-steady themselves. ------------------ |
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Xian_Lee Member Posts: 345 From: Registered: 03-15-2006 |
quote: I don't think so. I don't think so. I have no first hand experience with D&D (a brief jaunt with Neverwinter Nights is as much as I have), so my guesses would be just that. Assuming that D&D isn't far off from other games I have played (such as Oblivion, which revolves around stopping the forces of an equivalent to hell), I would say that D&D isn't evil, and that the demons of D&D do not equate to playing with demonic forces. As Josh Dies of Showbread (an excellent Christian band) wrote in regards to zombie films (a long story, explained in detail on the Showbread website), depiction is not the same as glorification. Demons are evil, but the depiction of demons is not in itself evil. Otherwise, we would be in trouble reading about Satan in the Bible. Wasn't there a "fiery demon of the ancients" (a Balrog, just to make sure that my question is seen as rhetorical and not as one of ignorance) in Lord of the Rings? Most Christians approve of those books/movies, and I'm not seeing a great difference in that they both (LotR and D&D) depict "demons." Then again, I have next to no first hand experience with D&D, so my commentary isn't the most useful one. ------------------ |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
I'm still waiting for people to say exactly what is wrong with D&D. until then, I'm throwing this in the folder with "Harry Potter is the anti-christ" and "pokemon is evil." ------------------ |
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steveth45 Member Posts: 536 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
quote: Now we're getting somewhere. I merely assumed that you were ignorant because you spoke in broad brush statements without any supporting details. I see know that you come from a place of experience, which does make your opinion worth listening to. quote: This is very condescending, which, ironically, is very unlike Paul. quote: Comparing those who play RPG's to Satan tempting Jesus is preposterous. quote: What exactly are the artful lies? The foundation of the human experience is narrative, we are all drawn to it. Even Jesus used narrative to explain spiritual things to people. RPG's are just another type of narrative, like Lord of The Rings, or kids playing make-believe, or adults watching movies or reading books. The story of God and His relationship with mankind has been given to us in the form of a narrative, the Bible. quote: Now I see, you have been given certain limitations to avoid certain pitfalls, that makes perfect sense. Foisting these on everyone else, is not valid. Everyone has different limitations and areas of weakness, and we should always be sensitive. It's like the alcohol issue--if I was around somebody that had to avoid all alcohol because of previous abuses and personal conviction, then I would gladly have a glass of lemonade, but that doesn't mean I become a teetotaler. If I shaped my life based on everyone else's convictions, I wouldn't play video games, drive a car, own a computer, talk on a cell phone, heat up food in a microwave, play RPG's, eat meat, or watch any movies. Lots of people have valid points why each of those things might be bad, but to go along with every fad or opinion without personal conviction from God is to be like the man without faith who is driven by the wind and tossed back and forth.
quote: Differences of opinion about RPG's hardly constitutes whether or not someone is serving God or not. You have already equated yourself with Paul, now you are aligning the will of God with your opinion. ------------------ |
zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
Just had to say a few things: I agree alot with what Steveth said--good job dude! Matt Langley---HOME RUN dude! You hit it out of the park IMO I agree with you fully! Xian_Lee---the analogy of the kid and the high dive was one of the best parable-analogies I have ever heard dude---very well put. All in all, if someone gets unhealthy on D&D--it would be like getting unhealthy with Narnia---it involves the person's inability (or lack of parental training) to discern fantasy and reality---if you see someone like that the best thing you can do is befriend them and lovingly offer to fill in the gaps and help them understand so they can become a more effective human being and Christian in the real world while being able to enjoy the fantasy on an even deeper level due to their more intimate understanding of fantasy and reality. ------------------ |
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Owen Member Posts: 22 From: Poulsbo, Wa. US Registered: 01-04-2002 |
My own (admitted limited) understanding is thus. Even having certain symbols in your home can make you vulnerable to attack. I won't even touch PnP D&D. I find it a little disturbing how defensive people can get over D&D. Particularly when it's something they play themselves. You see accusations thrown around like "you're uninformed and don't know what you're talking about" to diminish the arguements and justify continued play. People will demand proof that they're determined not to believe because after all it's all relative right? "It doesn't cause me or any of my friends problems I can see" and they're already convinced that evidence doesn't exist. Just by virture of taking that defensive route so strongly kinda bugs me a bit and makes me wonder if there isn't some validity to the opposing arguement. Especially when opposing evidence that they're nothing wrong with it isn't presented either. What you end up with is both sides going back and forth going "is not! is too! is not! is too!" My philosophy is basically this. 1: If having satanic symbols in the home (and I doubt anyone here can tell me they know them all or that D&D material has none) can open you up to attack, then it's best to not have any. 2: Elements such as spells of demon summonings, undead (regardless of alignment) etc in the hands of player characters cannot be a good thing. I don't care what game it is. Now let me say a few more things. I would never claim superiority in a debate based on understanding and claiming the other persons ignorance. Especially without hard evidence There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophies. You might think you know the game but how much do you know about spiritual forces? Do you know the rules they have to operate by? Do you know everything that opens you up to attack? I will never go so far as to say that Christians can't take a game like D&D and use it to glorify God. In the end after all it's only a collection of rules. I will also never say that everyone who plays is going to do this or that. I would even be willing to acknowledge that only a minority experiences serious problems. But I have to wonder about how this game is used by occults and covens. I wonder about the content which always includes demonic creatures and magics. I wonder about the symbols used in the game's artwork. Yes I know a lot of other games have all that stuff to. That doesn't mean it's right or ok for those games either. I don't necessarily consider these games 100% taboo for me personally. In end what we are or are not susceptible too does play a part, but we also need to ask ourselves how well we know ourselves. I love Oblivion. I probably have over 200 hours on my current save game it's my 3rd character, but I'm not defending the game's content either. I know a lot of the bad guys are demon wannabes. I don't say it's ok because it's just a game and I'm not affected by it. So no offense guys but when you get all defensive over the game you're playing it makes me worry a bit. Where's YOUR proof that certain games don't have a demonic nature about them? Or that you yourself can't be harmed by it? and if I might step on a few more toes here.. who knows Paul so well? It's troublesome to me when scripture is answered with scripture to support opposing viewpoints. That's a clear sign to me that someone is fearfully wrong. I can understand both sides here so I'm not going to take a very hard stand one way or the other. I think we need to decide for ourselves but allow God to work in us and shape us to remove our impurities. God knows I certainly have quite a few of those. I think the most important thing to ask yourself is "is what I'm doing glorifying to God?" Rather than argue over who knows best, pray about it. If someone thinks they have a legitimate concern and comes to you with it or you overhear it, don't just dismiss it out of hand and say "I understand what I'm doing and you're ignorant". Take it to God and be open to His guidance. How does the passage go? Lean not on your own understanding but acknowledge Him in all your ways? What's really bugging me reading over this discussion is I'm seeing a lot of leaning on your own understanding. I know better than you do. Well maybe you do, but maybe you don't. Only God knows for sure. Ok I'm ranting now but if you take anything at all from it, then take the last point and go pray. Everyone.. just go pray. Especially when scripture is being used on both sides.. GO PRAY! and be open to God's reply. ------------------ |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
i'll be honest here and say that i haven't read every post on this thread but i have skimmed through several of them so i'm not entirely unknowing here. When i was growing up my mother/grandmother were constantly telling me how D&D players were committing suicide over the game (i'm assuming because their character died or something to that effect). In my mind, i see those people as being screwed up before they even rolled a D4/D6/D10/D20 to generate their character. So they could have done the same thing over a game of Pitfall (possibly). Same thing goes for MMORPGs, and the like. if you have no self control then it will consume you. Please feel free to smack me if i'm too far off topic or anything. ------------------ |
HanClinto Administrator Posts: 1828 From: Indiana Registered: 10-11-2004 |
quote: okee dokee. I don't have much to add, though I'll contribute my two cents into the fire.
quote: Interesting that you bring up Harry Potter, Arch, because I was going to touch on that in my response to Matt's questions. I have the same problem with Harry Potter that I do with D&D, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Charmed and a host of other entertainment. They bring a large vocabulary into common parlance which was previously restricted to occultic practice. So are you playing with true demonic forces? Certainly not. But it pains me when I see kids who have learned of the occult through such things, have become enthralled by it, and then done some regrettable things. Perhaps I should give you an analogy. Let's shift gears, and talk about sci-fi instead of "magic". Science fiction does a very similar thing to Harry Potter and D&D -- it gets a large amount of vocabulary brought into common parlance, even though the words don't mean the same thing. In sci-fi, a black hole is a portal to another dimension. In reality, it will crush you into itty-bitty-bits. In sci-fi, velocities exceeding the speed of light are possible through the fabric of space. In reality, there are much more promising ways to pursue faster-than-light travel/communication. The list goes on and on. I doubt many people would deny the connection between nerds who grew up reading science fiction and dreaming of space travel and the percentage of them who grew up to be engineers who at least have dabbled in model rocketry, space camp, or seeing what kinds of jobs NASA has to offer. It is that connection between childhood fantasy and reality that I am cautious against for kids who read Harry Potter and play D&D. Please note that I only said cautious against -- I don't have a problem with reading Harry Potter or playing D&D, and think that both of them can be just fine in the correct contexts. It bugs me when kids are left to deal with the deeper topics that these books bring up when there aren't responsible people (parents) engaging in it with them. Explaining the difference between a fictional "demon" and a real demon -- a fictional "hex" and a real hex -- a fictional "prophecy" and a real prophecy. I don't want people to get the impression that I think that D&D is a "gateway drug" into the occult -- I wouldn't go that far. Though as a further discussion question, one that I've wrestled with is: "Am I okay with making sacrifices to some deity other than God? Even if it's just a virtual sacrifice to a virtual deity?" --clint P.S. Obligatory Dead Alewives sketch Dungeons and Dragons link. [This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited May 15, 2007).] |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
HanClinto, what you say is definitely reasonable. I personally never connected magic ingame with real magic so these games never felt occultic to me. (I believe their very form and essence is different. ingame magic is too... well... fanciful. too clean. too "natural." a guy just casually tossing a fireball isn't normal in today's society. real world magic is more involved with spiritual entities. more faustian, i guess.) for someone who can't differentiate between the two (or if they are just pretty darn close,period), yeah they should stay away from it. I, however, have one contention with what you said: quote: technically, a black hole does actually tear a hole in space time so it is theorized that if you can "survive it" you might end up in another universe, or atleast your remains will. (through the theoritical white hole). ..yes.. I've been enthralled by sci-fi. and (hopefully) will be working at NASA. lol. ------------------ |
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: Very interesting point, one I haven't really heard, at least not specifically. Of course I'm probably not the most impacted person in that aspect. I am more of the mind that if someone is affraid of vocabulary (not talking about you) then that is a problem they need to face anyways... especially considering many of our 'occult' vocabulary wasn't always occult and in many cases translated (or more properly 'interpreted') into the words we tag with more emphasis. To me this is putting too much emphasis on the words of people and not the actions of people. Just like many Christians put too much emphasis on the rules of the Bible, the hoops you need to jump through, and the handshakes you need to know. To me when Jesus came and challenged how the pharisees were focusing on the rules... he then re-established some of them. Many Christians I see like to say that he made it even "harder to get into heaven", made the rules more strict, etc. To me he was abolishing the rules and pointing out the original intent of the original rules. (scripture break) Matthew 5:21-22 quote: Matthew 5:27-28 quote: I think Jesus (and God) tried to lay down rules in the Old Testament. Rules that should help guide man to a more moral and better life. Though I think Jesus realized that these rules were having the opposite effect. Instead of the Pharisees actually honoring the intent of the rules they stricly adhered to the wording, the legalistic aspects, and found loop holes around them. They also used them as ammunition for other believers in the Lord. They used it as a way to put down their fellow man and make themselves feel holier and better. In the above scripture, to me, Jesus is not making it harder to follow the rules. He simply is abolishing the rule and focusing on the intent. The intent of not to muder (kill unjustly) was to ward people against acts of hate and anger, so he said just don't be angry. The purpose of someone not commiting adultery is to prevent un-holy lust, lust that could tear people apart and tempt them into sin. So instead of focusing on the rule that was to ward people away Jesus simply says it's a sin to even lust, for you've committed adultery in your heart. To me this is Jesus pushing beyond what we interpret, words that we put value on, pushing past the word game and straight out saying the original intent of these rules. To me when people refer to occult vocabulary or specific words and/or rules that we've established as "occult", "evil", or even "good" it reminds me of what Jesus was trying to abolish (at least in my heart what I believe he was trying to do), the preconceptions that rule or ward towards a narrow vision (again not referring specifically to you, probably just those with the extreme concept of words carrying that much weight). To me we should way the intent and actions of a person, not our interpretation of their vocabulary or what society tells us what to think when people say certain things. Again I'm probably not the most effected person by that point.
quote: It pains me as well... though I would then have to ask what would you define as learning the "occult". Let me know if either of these are right (or if it is something completely different I'm definitely curious). The first thing that comes to mind is the stereotypical concepts of people being converted to satantic cults by starting out with D&D sessions. Not being sure on which one (or both) you implied I'll respond to both. "The first thing that comes to mind is the stereotypical concepts of people being converted to satantic cults by starting out with D&D sessions." This is a very sad thing... though is the concept many Christians hold tight to. In fact many of the Christians who don't have a clue what D&D is (not saying you are one, just many I've talked to about this fit this category) point out. Usually this is a story they heard from someone who heard from someone. A couple cases I've actually heard it from someone who was directly involved. These are the extreme cases and remind me of something a bit unrelated (but the concept is the same). I spent most of my childhood in Phoenix, AZ (a big city). There was a Denny's in Phoenix that was established as the "Gay and Lesbian" Denny's. This always struck me as odd because how could a place be associated with that. Sure a lot of Homosexual people meet up at this one location from time to time, but why would you then designate that Denny's as that. Applying the same concept from D&D that would mean Denny's would then be a "Gay and Lesbian" restraunt. Since homosexual people meet there then it must be. Just like some cults play D&D. This type of thinking has always struck me as odd. For one, usually this is attributed by people who disagree with what is going on. Hence Christians associating D&D with satanic cults and worship. So in a way they are defining their world and reality by those people they despise. They are giving control over to those they disagree with. That part alone strikes me as odd and instantly has always made me question when someone labels something like that. If you are being cowardly enough to let those you disagree with define your definitions then I probably shouldn't be listening to your advice (not referring to you, just a mental thought I've had in these specific circumstances). The second thought that comes to mind is how can you define things like that. So if a cult plays poker, monopoly, and watches Disney cartoons that must mean those things are always attributed to that cult? Not logical at all. Most people who have the extreme concept of D&D tied to the occult (not you, you are far from extreme) usually know very little of D&D. So it's interesting how they can comment so surely on something they know so little about.
To me intent and action is more important than someones interpretation. Especially considering things we associate with the "occult" were associated with different things in the past (not all but some). Concepts change and what once wasn't acceptable becomes acceptable. Now as long as someone doesn't change their moral code and still truly beleives in Christ then I see no problem with them using D&D vocabulary, or Harry Potter. To me words are just words, the intent and action behind them is what really is important. Especially when it comes to the shady area of what words mean what in occult meanings and similar aspects. A lot of these terms and concepts are translated from translations, each step a different interpretation. So who knows if the words we use for certain things truly mean what the original "bad" word meant. The variation of translations of Scripture is a perfect example (I know you've been studying up on that, or at least were the last time I talked to you). Just like the variation of "Thou shalt not kill" vs. "Thou shalt not murder" vs the actual meaning of the words (to unjustly kill was the best translation I've found so far). Thats why I don't place value in words, especially words that have come from words that have been translated and/or interpreted (who knows how many times).
quote: You bring up an interesting and, I think, a very valid point. Though just like those who read sci-fi books, comics, etc aren't trying to create the "death ray" or "multi-dimensional transportation" but instead working on real life applications of science, I think those who spend time with fantasy for something similar. For example I've been a very avid fantasy fan for many years... I do in fact want to write a fantasy novel... no not based on reality, yes involving magic and other conepts... though this story will teach lessons in a way that will get through to these type of people. Lessons that were taught to me by Jesus through the Bible. On top of that I plan to merge both fantasy and reality into a game that hopefully will appeal to both but teach a very serious and very real Christian concept. I see many fantasy people with these same goals. Just like there are those firmly rooted in reality and study science to create the next biggest weapon that will kill even more people. Those who are firmly rooted in reality that are tyranical leaders who oppress and conquer.
quote: Very (very) interesting question. For me to answer let me ask some questions to further detail what you mean. Do you mean a virtual sacrafice as in "My character Bob sacrafices to the God of Harvest Fern"... or do you mean the "sacrafice" of time. ------------------ |
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: It's interesting to hear this statement, considering I've heard the complete opposite almost my whole life. I was raised to believe D&D was evil. In fact for quite a while I did believe it was so. People told me horrible stories of this demonic game that sucked people in and they ended up sacrificing babies in a cult ceremony. Eventually I actually played D&D. A friend of mine had some parts of it (this was when I was fairly young too) and we were playing around with them (not even close to the rules, we were in 4th grade or so) and I began to wonder what all those stories were that I had been taught. Later in my teen years (I was extremely active in my church and youth group) I heard the stories again, this time not only D&D but also Magic the Gathering (the card game). Well before this time I had been taught Magic the Gathering by a relative. This is when I started to doubt the stories everyone told me of D&D being evil. I knew for one that all the accusations they had against Magic were completely unrelated to the game but related more to those people playing with that specific person than anything. Then in highschool and college I learned to play D&D and various other RPG and fantasy based systems (including Everquest MMO). Now whenever I heard a Christian say D&D is evil I make it a point to ask them why... I don't mean the general canned answers they've been hand fed, but answers based on their own knowledge. Far more than 9 out of 10 times the Christians I ask have never played D&D (maybe have seen it or a few images of it) and know nothing about the game and concepts behind this. So though I find your comment intriguing, the vast majority of people I hear talk about D&D being evil know next to nothing about it. That is what I call arogance, ego, and ignorance. I now don't take knowledge people give me on their word alone, I vaildate myself. I use this head God gave me.
quote: Obscurity is often peoples protection w hen talking about something they (not saying you don't know about D&D or you are one of these, just that your comment reminds me of the canned responses I usually hear). What satanic symbols are these? Are these symbols truly satanic or are the multi-purposed (many symbols people mis-interpret or don't understand the full historical meaning of)? Why are these symbols satanic? Where have you seen them? What defines your view of "satanic" symbols?
quote: You don't care what game it is? To me if you were to define something "evil" or not to be "good" then I would think you would want all the info... For example... lets take your use of the word "demon", if you study the roots of "demon" it comes from the word "daimon" and here are some interesting comments on the greek root word (http://www.religion-encyclopedia.com/D/demon.htm):
quote: You can see how what people perceive isn't always what things are. Now this doesn't mean I beleive in subjectivity. In fact I'm an Objectivist Christian. I beleive in an objective reality. So to me there are things clearly of good and evil. To me D&D Demons and Devils are completely fanciful make believe creations based off of myths and concepts... very little is really based off of truth. I also don't see a problem with someone roleplaying as someone "evil"... to me this is just creatively using your mind. If you try and defend yourself against a force you often role - play as that evil force to try and understand how it works... such as us trying to understand how a true demon may try and attack us. Thats role-playing whether you want to accept it or not. That in itself is not "evil"... your intent behind that action, and the actual action I beleive is what is defined as "evil" or not. Playing a game in which you understand what you are pretending is not real and you are simply stimulating your brain, that I don't think is evil. Then again you have your opinions and I have mine. ------------------ |
InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
D&D doesn't have to even a slightest mention of anything occult. It's really the contents of the the individual games that are played. One can't say D&D = occult, although it may be at times, it's really up to how the DM decides to play.
[This message has been edited by insanepoet (edited May 15, 2007).] |
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Xian_Lee Member Posts: 345 From: Registered: 03-15-2006 |
quote: Being a coder's website, you just assigned the occult to the variable D&D! Oh, that's an out of place nerd joke. Sorry. I wonder how many Linux guys have freaked out over all of the services being called daemons (another form of the term "demon"). Oh, that's derailing the topic. Sorry about that. To have something valid to say, I think I'm going to have to go do some hands on research of D&D instead of second hand news and generalizations that I make. ------------------ |
Cohort X Member Posts: 126 From: The Great Pacific Northwest Registered: 09-16-2006 |
quote: I'm gonna have to take exception to that. I've probably read ten times more historical novels and classical fiction then I have sci-fi. And yet here I am an engineer. It's not your activities that give you interests, it's your interests that make you seek out activities you'll enjoy. If you're into the occult are you going to spend all your time with your occult friends line dancing and installing increasingly larger suspension systems in your truck? Of course not! |
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HanClinto Administrator Posts: 1828 From: Indiana Registered: 10-11-2004 |
Hey Matt! Thanks for your good and thoughtful reply. While I'm extremely happy with my job here in Indiana, I still really enjoyed our discussions when we were in Oregon. I would love to be going to church with you (plural) and Ben at Cascade and discussing life and theology and games afterwards at a pancake house. 
quote: That's a valid explanation, and I think you're very right about the sad state of pop-culture Christianity and needing to know the hoops and handshakes and Christian argot in order to be deemed one of the flock. I'm not against the vocabulary of the occult being used -- it's not the words that scare me. Rather, I think it's dangerous for people to use words without understanding what they mean in other contexts and situations. Perhaps I'm diving too much into semantics here (which I've never studied), but it redefines a bunch of words, such that when you go into the bookstore and see two books, both about spells, both about hexes and spirits and enchantments, it can be hard for the non-discerning reader (whether child or adult) to understand that there is a sharp and distinct contrast between the meanings of both writers who are using the same words.
quote: Well said. On a bit of a sidenote (specifically regarding the "abolishing the rule and focusing on the intent" part), I just want to point out that it was *always* about the intent. Near the bottom of this old thread on Fantasy (which took me a long time to find btw), I gave a long explanation of how it's my undertanding that the OT rules were never about the actions, but were always about the heart (and for support, I referenced verses from Hosea, Jeremiah and the Psalms). It was a pretty long and involved discussion, but I enjoyed hashing it all out. I'm not the best theologian, and I'm sure I could be corrected on some points, but that's my understanding of the intent of the law. </sidenote> Feel free to respond here if you like, but if we want to talk about this at length with many more references, we might want to start a new thread.
quote: Good guesses on the two, and while it's related to each, perhaps I could nail it down better by giving an example. I don't mean to keep picking on poor Mr. Potter, but it's the example I can lay out clearest. One of the great things about Harry as a protagonist is just how well the readers can identify with him. Harry is made fun of at school, he feels clumsy, he's bullied without friends to defend him, he feels mistreated by his "parents", and he feels so alone in a cold and loveless world. Suddenly, "magic" comes into his life. With his magical spells and powers at his disposal, it seems to suddenly solve his problems. Bullies are afraid of him, his "parents" treat him nicely and give him respect, he has real friends and experiences true friendship and love for the first time. For the kid who feels like he is in a similar position, it can really glorify and make things like "spells" and "hexes" and "magic/magick" sound really attractive. I know that JK Rowling has done a fantastic job of really trying to show just how having magic doesn't make one's life all that much different and better (especially in the later books). For all of the benefits that magic brings, it brings a whole new set of problems, much larger than the mundane "muggle" problems of everyday life. Still, especially from before when the later books weren't yet published, it was very easy for readers to get caught up in the fantasy of imagining how much their life would be better if they could hex a pig's tail onto the butt of their fat bully. Perhaps one of the times when this aspect of fantasy was made most real to me was during one of the summers that I sold books door-to-door while in college. A couple of poor kids asked me if I had any books about magic, because they wanted to learn more about it. They'd heard about it, and wanted to know how to do real magic. They were quite serious, but hopelessly uninformed. Like I said, it's not a *huge* gripe, and the issues that kids like that have could be worked around by having a caring and knowledgable adult to shepherd them. From my point of view, much of this is caused by the blending of two very different realms (fantasy magic and "real magic") by its shared vocabulary. Does that clarify my perceived danger any better?
quote: quote: You both bring up very good points, and Cohort, I think your discussion of causality is very appropriate. I would hate to be the one to say that we should ban the sale of wool gloves (simply because higher wool glove sales correspond to an increased number of people dying of frostbite). So I will be the first to admit, that yes -- many times, people's hobbies are driven by their interests. Just because a person is already practicing in the occult and becomes a D&D fan does not make D&D bad. However, my original intent was more along this direction: childhood fantasy is still very instrumental in directing the later course of our lives. Wernher von Braun was certainly inspired by the science fiction author Jules Verne for part of his activity in rocketry. At the time, Verne's "From the Earth to the Moon" was complete poppycock, but it dares people to dream, to imagine, and to pursue with whatever means are available at hand. Nasa has some great articles about this, 1, 2, 3. Please understand that I'm not citing these articles to try and prove my point out of hand with a non-sequitor -- I think I understand where you are coming from, and I think you bring up some very valid points. In conclusion: quote: I will conclude by saying that it's a two-way street. Your interests fuel your activities, and the feedback from your activities fuels your interests. I focused on just one half of this cycle, and you deftly pointed out my lack of acknowledgement of the other. Thanks for the amendment.
quote: The first -- a sacrifice in a virtual world. This came up for me when playing Nethack, and animal/human/object sacrifice is a core part of the game, without which it is impossible to win. Thanks for the good discussion, all! I've really enjoyed it. In Christ, [This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited May 18, 2007).] |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
And us non-posters have enjoyed reading it. |
SSquared Member Posts: 654 From: Pacific Northwest Registered: 03-22-2005 |
Yes. I have definitely enjoyed reading it. I have wanted to respond, but it's tough to keep up the posting on such quick and free-flowing discussions. |
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Skynes Member Posts: 202 From: Belfast, N Ireland Registered: 01-18-2004 |
To the original question: No and No. Rules: I did not find anything demonic or remotely occult. No occult symbols or occult-like symbols, no demon names. Nothing of the sort. Demonic stuff: Essentially in D&D you can be Good, Neutral or Evil. There is a book for detailed alignments, Book of Exalted Deeds for Good, book of Vile Darkness for Evil. Exalted Deeds is for all the Paladins, Clerics, Priests, Holy warriors etc. All for running campaign with the mightiest of holy warriors. Vile Darkness is the direct opposite. They were written as complementing books and both have a "MATURE AUDIENCE ONLY" sticker on the front. This is because Vile Darkness is for creating the most sick and evil characters possible. They say this is complementing as the further a good paladin you have, the further an evil monster you need to counter it. e.g. What knight of the order Paladin will be bothering with petty thieves? Not when he could be fighting an Arch-liche in the middle of a zombie ridden swamp? This aside, Vile Darkness DOES have symbols and names. The book utterly creeped me out and I refuse to use it.
Absolutely nothing. Actually it's a campaign recommended in one of the books! (Epic level handbook). D&D on its own, is a set of rules. The story, environment, monsters and world, are at the players disposal to change and create. Right now I've started a Pirate campaign with me as GM. It's going to be sea battles, ports, bars. That kinda thing. No demons or devils at all. entirely human oriented. Demons, Devils and Undead: Undead... I really have no idea where the correlation between Undead and real occult came from. Real-life Necromancy is about communicating with the dead for information, not raising zombie and skeleton soldiers! lol.
How do I know D&D and the occult aren't connected? Firstly I read into D&D. I got books, I read them. Furthermore, I run into witches and those stuck in the occult way more than I would like :S |
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InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
I agree with you skynes. I used to play D&D myself, I even DMed a few campaigns. DMing campaigns with unchristians can be a great way to witness to them. Teach thru stories or parables =) The Book of Vile Darkness is just what it's named and it IS evil. But saying all of D&D is just evil is like saying the internet is evil because of porn. ------------------ [This message has been edited by insanepoet (edited May 16, 2007).] |
D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
I think we could debate it over-and-over again, and come to no conclusions. I personally don't play D&D games. The idea of 'roleplay' just doesn't sit right with me. Having been heavily involved in drugs in the past, I know how to easy it is to find ways to escape the real world. Which in turn starts to take over. For me this is bad. The bible is quite clear also about having nothing to do with sorcery and the such, which most RPG games contain. It's just not fun for me and is such a grey area, I find it best to stay away. You guys just need to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to bring guidance on this subject. Then you will have your answer.
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: Agreed, though I personally find everyones opinion very interesting. Some people have made some very interesting points, such as Hanclinto's example of kids asking about magic.
quote: Let me ask you a question then. Do you ever roleplay? Say when you wake up and consider what the whether will be like and 'roleplay' yourself in that weather to consider what clothing you should wear. Say when you have a big event coming up, maybe one you have to speak at and you are preparing a speach or even just considering what you are going to say (or even an interview)... do you ever roleplay as if in that situation to prepare for it? How about even more to home to us Christians... say when you read scripture and you 'roleplay' as someone in that role, maybe an apostle, maybe an observer... do you find that bad? We all roleplay quite a bit throughout our normal lives, this is simply applying that same concept for enjoyment, for relaxation, to releive stress, to work our minds (and sometimes our spirit). It also is a great way to get to know people and to outreach.
quote: Very interesting point. Which is a point I think has been mentioned before. That for some these escapes are more riskier at becoming a problem. Though just because it "in turn starts to take over" for you doesn't mean it works that way for everyone. I have faced issues in which escapes take over as well. One of them being playing a roleplaying game (an MMO when I was a bit younger) another being masochism combined with depression. Dealing with these two things has made me very strong and resistant to these types of things now though. For some it's the opposite, for some it creates a permanent weak spot.
quote: I think you give very good advice here, though I have to admit I dislike how you phrased part of it:
quote: I find this slightly condescending since this feels like your implying we haven't already, as if to come to our conclusion we must not be praying (please correct me if I get an incorrect impression, that happens quite a bit on the web lol ------------------ |
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Skynes Member Posts: 202 From: Belfast, N Ireland Registered: 01-18-2004 |
quote: This was a debate?
quote: Then avoid it. I'm glad you know what can be harmful for you.
quote: Having encountered real-life sorcery, I have problems with this statement. Biblical sorcery is nothing like RPG sorcery. Biblcai sorcery was ritual sacrifices, demon summoning (knowing full well what you were doing) and manipulating spiritual powers. RPG goes "I cast fireball"
quote: I wouldn't call it grey, but as I said if it's harmful to you, avoid it.
quote: I confess I also found this to sound manipulative, as if you're assuming it to be evil and we're all in denial. I'm sure though you didn't intend it. I have prayed about D&D and Magic: The Gathering. There was a time when I dropped all connections to fantasy games because of what people told me. Before I went and did my own reading and praying on the subject. When I did read it up and pray about it, I found no objections to it. On the contrary due to these games, I've met many people I've been able to tell Christ to, people normally untouched by the church (in a positive light anyway). |
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D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
quote: No need to find this condesending. Its good to pray about things. I have no idea if you lot have or haven't. For those that haven't, it's a good prompt to pray. The bible says our own wisdom is foolishness, so it's always good to seek God's wisdom on a subject. With regards to roleplay, i don't find myself 'roleplaying' about the weather or about speeches. I'm not to bothered about the weather, I know if i'm giving a speech that God will direct me. I have no need to roleplay. I'm me, not a level 23 Paladin from the forest of Azeroth or whatever. I don't want to 'cast' fireballs. Just the word 'cast' suggests something not of God. If it's not of God, then it's of this world. The point I was trying to put across is that if the community is divided or an issue, then it's good to pray. God knows everything, I would prefer to rely on that, rather then mans wisdom (read 1 Corinthians 2). Anyways, happy debating. ------------------ |
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D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
justa quick note on casting. I do accept 'casting' in the bible. But it's in the name of Jesus. Casting anything thats not in the name of Jesus just seems wrong. ------------------ |
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Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
quote: Casting... the only thing I remember is casting out demons. |
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HanClinto Administrator Posts: 1828 From: Indiana Registered: 10-11-2004 |
quote: It seems that one of the biggest uses of the word "cast" essentially means to throw. Casting dice, casting lots, casting off clothing, cast off all cares, shouting "cast off" to pull your boat out of port, a sad moment cast a shadow over his face, cast anchor, cast a vote, "all eyes were cast upon the speaker", candles casting light, cast aspersions on my character, findings that cast doubt on our hypothesis, casting about for an answer, etc. (citing answers.com as a reference) |
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Xian_Lee Member Posts: 345 From: Registered: 03-15-2006 |
Maybe it's just because I'm obsessed with language, but I have a hard time considering any given word evil in itself. As HanClinto pointed out, "cast" as pertaining to "casting a spell" is one of the lesser used forms of the word. Perhaps I'm just too ready to look at things in a symbolic form instead of the face value. I don't even find words like "death," "demon," and "hell" to always be bad in themselves because they can be symbolic of something else. I wonder if I'm too much of an artist for my own good at times. ------------------ |
Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Hey guys, In answer to the original thread questions I don't believe DnD is inherently evil, nor do I believe that playing a campaign of DnD which involves demons is necessarily the same thing (or even remotely close) as being involved with real demons. The first point to make about DnD is that the game is what people make it. Perhaps the biggest weakness in DnD, and its biggest strength also, is that the game is deliberately constructed to be as good, or as bad as the players and the DM want it to be. I was raised believing that DnD was satanic, until I met some christians who played it when I was in college. I then started doing my own research on it and I found that a very high percentage of what Christians had to say about DnD was entirely made up. After that I began playing and played with a few different groups. In most cases I found that the biggest problem for me as a Christian was not the game itself but the people I was playing with. In the vast majority of the campaigns I've been involved with the players have frequently used the 'freedom' of the game to indulge the darker aspects of their own character through playing the role of either evil, or morally ambiguous PC's. I did feel convicted about playing DnD at one point, and quit the game, but the conviction I felt was not related to the specifics of the game itself, but rather to the influence the other players were having on me. There really is only one aspect of DnD as a rule system, or a game universe, that I'm leary of and which does bother me when I play and that is the religious system of the game. The game worlds all have their own religious systems including pantheons. It bothers me to play a character which worships a false god. Even to pretend, for purposes of mere enjoyment, to do that, I'm not comfortable with it. That, however, is easily avoided if you play with Christians. It is a simple matter to implement your own religious system which is based on Christianity and the bible.
Likewise, the description of how a spell is cast, including verbal components, ie words that must be spoken in the right order and right intonation, combined with the movement of hands in certain ways, combined with the right material component etc, is said to be like the way in which real rituals are performed. Another problem with all of this is that the ideas around various rituals, how they are prepared and performed is very similar across most religions, including traditional christianity. Another aspect of DnD that I have a problem with personally is divination. Christians often cite the biblical prohibitions against magic and witch craft etc. However, most of what the bible talks about is nothing at all like modern fantasy. The vast majority of what is prohibited by the bible is various forms of divination. Most of modern fantasy is based on fairy tales and legends, not real occult practices which almost invariably involve divination and necromancy. Both of which are primarily what is forbidden by scripture, and both of which are involved in DnD, which is problematic for Christians. Again, those elements are easily eliminated if you tailor the game to christian purposes. DnD was made specificly to be tailored to whatever the players want it to be. So again, the issue comes down to the players. One of the big issues that lead to the big occult scare of the 80's that demonized all RPG's and anything fantasy related was a shift in Christian outlook. Previously folklore, fairy tales and the like were never viewed as occult or problematic. That is why Christians like George McDonald, CS Lewis, and JRR Tolkien made use of that model of communication (one reason anyway). They, nor anyone else at the time, saw it as occult. The chief criticism against such things previously had been that it wasn't serious, or it was too childish etc. For whatever reason, during the late 70's early 80's there was a distinctly alarmist, reactionary shift in the fundamentalist/evangelical Christian community in the US. It was probably the result of numerous social issues that at the same time, in secular culture, gave rise to the conspiracy theory sub-culture. There were entire ministries built on trying to expose the satanic conspiracy, and educating people on satanism and the occult. There were 'experts' on the occult who had come out of witchcraft and satanism to become christians who became celebrities in the christian community and had great impact. The problem was that very little of the hype was actually true. Eventually calmer heads began to prevail and it was shown that most of the experts, particularly those who claimed to have been in satanism and witchcraft were in fact frauds who had purposely and dramaticly distorted their 'testimonies'. The 'facts' tossed around even by respected Christian leaders, were shown to have little or no basis in reality. The great satanic scare had stretched well beyond RPG's. Whole police departments had created departments specially to deal with satanic and ritual cult crimes. Now it has been acknowledged by virtually all law enforcement agencies that real cases of satanic abuse etc were EXTREMELY rare and most of such cases believed at the time have been shown to be completely false. Among the most tragic results were the wave of accusations across the country brought up by hypnotic regression therapy. During the scare it became relatively common for people in counciling to undergo a new vogue treatment called hypnotic regression in which the therapist searched for 'repressed memories' under hypnosis. Memories of truly grusome and sickening satanic ritual abuse were uncovered with shocking frequency. There were a couple of major cases on this issue which shocked the entire nation, but many more were occured but were not nationally publicized. Later it was shown that in almost every case the 'memories' recovered were infact invented by the patient's sub-conscious mind in response to leading questions by the therapist. The real victims were the people whose lives were utterly ruined by false accusations. My parents knew a christian man from our area who's daughter accused him because of memories recovered under hypnotic regression. It destroyed his family, and he eventually lost everything he had, including his wife and kids. the moral of the story is that caution is good, and wise. Fear is bad and it leads to tragic foolishness. the christian community for the last 20 years or so has tended to be motivated by fear and alarmism. The result is we've swallowed alot of untruths, and reacted very unwisely. Now we're beginning to see a significant move away from that. The danger is that we will react too far the other way and refuse to consider things that perhaps we should be cautious about. We should be cautious, but not fearful. ------------------ |
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Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Han clinto's analysis on "cast" is accurate. Even in the usage of the phrase "cast out a demon" the word cast means "throw". In other words when you cast out a demon, you are throwing the demon out of someone's body/life. Like you might say, you got thrown our of the house. Cast is just a somewhat archaic english word that means the same things as "throw". "spell" actually means to speak, or words. It also is archaic english as in GO"SPEL" which as everyone knows means "good news". Spel in that usage meant news, or message, ie a spoken message (given there were no news papers then). Spell in the sense of magic goes back to that old archaic meaning, because spells were incantations. They were a series of words which was believed to have power. Thus to cast a spell, is literally to throw words. This fits perfectly with the ancient understanding. We don't think of words as having power, but the ancients did. Particularly names. This is why magic spells always involved speaking the right words. The ancients believed that words were powerful and if you knew the right words to speak, especially including the name of a given god, or force, or demon etc, you could compell that god/demon/force to act on your behalf. This is a part of the reason that the Hebrews forbade the speaking aloud of God's name. This is why the bible teaches that there is power and authority in the name of Jesus. Casting a spell is throwing out the right words to invoke a power to act on your behalf. Now, for the real question... given that understanding.. how is 'casting a spell' different than praying? ------------------ |
Mene-Mene Member Posts: 1398 From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA Registered: 10-23-2006 |
I haven't read the whole thing. If your problem is with fighting RPGs, then play them first whether with magic or without. I love the numbers. If your problem is with D&D due to magical elements, well the others have you covered. Now for the main part of my post.
quote: Because spell casting is 1 calling upon another so called diety than God. 2. Because spell casting is demanding with a purpose seeing power in the words, while prayer is talking to God, or in this case asking him to act seeing the power in God. Yes, there is the power of life and death in the tongue. Now as for why should we not spell cast in games for the opposite side? Because within the bible, (Can't find it right now) it says to avoid even the appearance of evil. ------------------ I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time. |
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HanClinto Administrator Posts: 1828 From: Indiana Registered: 10-11-2004 |
Josh, can I just say that it's really good to have you back? I've really enjoyed reading your posts -- they've been quite refreshing. More than that, it's just nice to have you around again (even if it's only for a little while -- I know you're really busy).
quote: That's extremely interesting. The whole names-have-power thing is still very prevalent in Africa where we visited last summer -- the whole idea that if someone knows your name, then they can have power over you.
quote: M^2 did a decent job of answering the question, but I think we can get even more specific. According to your definition, casting spells is about the words and the manner in which they are spoken. In prayer, words aren't even necessary, nor are any particular action, but rather a correct attitude of the heart. I'm reminded of Romans 8, specifically verse 26: quote:Thanks for the great education and insights! It was really good to hear from you again.--clint |
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Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Han, good to be back. I plan on being a bit more regular over the summer. I'm working full time for the summer but I have time at work usually to stop in for a bit. I look forward to catching up The idea is that, in the fantasy, the world itself is magical, and 'magic' is essentially a technology of having figured out how to manipulate the natural force of magic. In DnD for example there are two forms of magic and spell casting, Divine and Arcane. Divine is for priests and paladins, etc, people who receive their power from praying to a god, who in turn grants them powers for their devotion. For Tolkien and Lewis it was less clean cut than that. Yet they both used the idea that the world, creation itself is almost alive. Some of their 'magic' is based on being able to manipulate nature. Essentially this is no different than physics in our own world. Consider what man is actually able to do with physics merely by manipulating energy and matter, and the rules which govern our universe. The only real difference is that we don't use words and hand motions.
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
@D-SIPL:
quote: Very true... though not referring to you, I have heard people state that one should seek God's wisdom and if they don't find the same wisdom they have they think they must not be.
quote: What does a "23 Paladin from the forest of Azeroth" have to do with the whether or a speech? So you are saying you don't practice a speech, when writing it you don't run through it in your thinking whether or not it sounds good. Are you saying you never prepare? Preparation can often be roleplaying... saying a phrase in your mind, testing whether it makes sense or whether it doesn't... you are playing the role of speaking that... role playing is a simple term for a very common practice... it doesn't have to tie to fantasy, we all do it daily.
quote: Like multiple people have stated I refuse to find "cast" an evil word, for their reasons. Plus it's just a word. Many people think the word "Demon" is evil... then again it comes from the word "daimon" which was sometimes used to refer to angels (both angels from heaven and fallen angels). So in this case is it peoples ignorance that they think "demon" is evil, or the word is evil? I would be inclided to believe the original definition of the word and that people jump to conclusions.
quote: I completely agree... actually I'll go a step further, you should always ask for God's wisdom on a matter, even moreso when you agree (because then foolish pride comes into play thinking not all of you could be wrong). I have asked for God's wisdom on this many times, for many years... not a single time during any D&D or "Magic the Gathering" session have I ever once felt convicted that it was evil even in the slightest. Every prayer has been answered with understanding and study... a realization that people often mis-represent what they don't understand and that things often called "evil" by a group of people is simply a lack of understanding it. Just like the word "demon". @simon_templar:
quote: I believe this a very good observation. Though isn't this the same with a gun, a sword, even written words. Don't they all equally have the ability to be used as good or as evil? Though I don't think you are trying to do this, many Christians try to seperate things like this into a seperate classification, placing D&D and other "evil" things in a seperate little box that can't relate to the other concepts they understand.
quote: I came into the same realization.
quote: I could understand this as well... though when I find myself playing with someone that is very much not Christian (or claiming to be Christian but not really representing so) I think of it as an outreach opporunity.
quote: I definitely can respect this. If you find yourself becomming morally tempted then it's good to seperate. For me this has never been an issue. I've gone through some challenging during my teenage years that has massively steeled my faith, resolve, and ability to be influenced. I am now the type of person that can go amongst a group of people completely different than me and more often than not be the one to influence them. I don't say this out of pride, but out of lessons learned. I have absolute faith in the Lord and often seek out the awkward positions he enjoys putting me in to outreach to others. Though I can see if this is a weakness for you then you should definitely not be putting yourself into this position, at least not yet.
quote: This is one of those issues that people run into after they get beyond the concept of D&D being inherintly "evil". This is also one of those concepts that theres not an easy answer for. My only personal lessons learned on this would be that if you feel uncomfortable in this then it is something that you shouldn't be doing. TO me this is a mental trick. A mental trick we play on ourselves. There's a definite boundary between what's very much not real and made up and what's real. Sometimes we have issues with that line blurring. For me this is no longer an issue. Sure there are some of you who probably are shaking your head thinking that I simply 'think' this is not an issue. Though whether you believe me or not it doesn't matter to me, I don't have to prove that it is not an issue since it simply is not an issue. At a younger age I had issues with that line between reality and non-reality and I've faced challenges (having nothing to do with roleplaying) that have threatened my life... The Lord pulled me through that and taught me an understanding of the difference between the two. To me if my "character" worships XXX diety (whether good or evil) it has absolutely no bearing on my real self. It simply is a completely made up concept... fantasy. It is grown up pretend, just like we did when children. It is no different than playing a "non-christian" character in a video game. The concept of my "character" worshiping is in fact so much different than worshiping in real-life that I can hardly even compare the two. To me it's like comparing apples to oranges... the apple simply is not the organge, period. There is no doubt in my mind simply what is. If I ever have issues with comparing that apple to the orange, or the apple starts to round up a bit and turn a bit orange then I would know enough about myself to stop doing what I'm doing and re-evaluating my faith.
To me that fear is weakness. To me that fear is giving it power and not only weakening yourself and accepting doubt but 'giving' ownership in your mind of something to "evil". Some people think "rock" music is evil. By doing so they are giving ownership to demons and the devil. They are giving them sacrifices of mental weakness. They are opening themselves to be manipulated by reverse psychology. Such is not a strength but a weakness to the core. </endrant> Sorry for the little rant there, though I didn't mean most of those comments directly towards you simon. I also don't mean contempt towards those that have a weakness of being influenced by such things. We all have weaknesses. I think we just need to remember that though we should separate ourselves from these situations, we must in the end face them to overcome this weakness. Otherwise we are simply running with fear from something that we have given power over us... not very faithful. ------------------ |
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Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Hey Matt, I don't have any specific disagreements with what you said. I just wanted to elaborate on some of the ideas that have come up both in my post and that have been prompted by reading your posts (and others). One of the questions that always arises in RPG's is the question of playing evil characters, which I would also correlate to playing characters that worship false gods etc. How can a christian take pleasure in playing an evil character etc.. Well, there are many different perspectives on this. One friend of mine viewed playing an evil character as basicly like venting. It gave him a chance to vent his emotions and what not. I'm not 100% convinced thats a good idea, but its a perspective that some people have. Another and more common answer is what I would call the movie star defence. If we made a movie about the anti-christ, someone would have to play the anti-christ right? and its very possible they may enjoy the challenge of playing that role. Its a matter of having a skill (acting) and enjoying a challenge to your skill. Let me illustrate. I have a good friend who is a somewhat nominal christian. When he plays, he almost always plays evil. Even his 'good' characters come out fairly 'dark' in the final mix (he always tends to like the bad guys in movies too). He, and a many other people I've played with pretty clearly enjoy playing evil characters, not just for the challenge of portraying the character, but they actually just find it more fun to be evil. Part of this is because its not as restrictive as having to adhere to a moral code etc in game. I almost never play an evil character. the farthest I will go is playing a somewhat neutral roguish han solo type of character. The reason being, I simply don't like being evil. I feel bad when I play evil. This is even true in games like Knights of the Old Republic. I tried going darkside once and I couldn't do it because I felt bad when I'd abuse people etc. HOWEVER, when DMing, I actually really like having 'good' evil villians to play against the players. I have alot of fun taking on the challenge of playing the evil villain pitted against the players etc. I am currently involved in a campaign with a few friends, people that I can play with, without being negatively influenced etc. I rarely play priest or paladin characters just because its not my usual play style, though I would like to do a 'holy' campaign sometime that centers around priests. When I run a campaign I usually make up my own world to set it in, or at least modify one of the usual settings. I modify the religious system to kind of mirror the concept of the names of God in the Old Testament, where each name of God reflects different attributes of God, or roles that God plays.. such as Jehovah Rophe, God our healer and so on. I construct the 'dieties' on the concept that they are actually different manifestations of God's attributes, rather than different gods. Even when I'm playing in someone elses campaign, from my own perspective I basicly construct the religious system that way in my mind. Since the entire game is imagination, you are free to do that. You can make of it whatever you want. ------------------ |
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graceworks Member Posts: 455 From: Corvallis, Oregon, USA Registered: 03-03-2001 |
Wow - what a thread. My apologies - too long for me to read/digest right now. I'll confess that I did play D&D in high school. And while I haven't gone postal or slipped to the dark side from that experience, I don't think I saved anyone. joeylockie2468@hotmail.com So much so, I mostly gave it up knowing that it would be nearly impossible to find such quality DMs and players! Hey, at least it dramatically increased the vocabulary of a bunch of country hicks! I encourage everyone to read First Corinthians - it covers a lot of these "should I do x if it affects my brethren" examples. One could argue that Paul was specifically addressing the Corinthians but you should read it for yourself and listen to God. And for stumbling brothers, we should be there to keep them from falling. BUT definitely be moving them along from milk to meat so that they are stronger and can bear up under the temptations from the evil one. I pray that everyone here gets closer to God everyday - and earnestly listens to Him, avoiding pitfalls but surviving and learning from the puddles that we step and stumble on along our path. -Tim PS to Mack, can I steal, er borrow, your little Axys and LR banners (do you have a Ewar one?)? ------------------ |
MastaLlama Member Posts: 671 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
Hey Tim, you have an email address in the middle of your post there that you may want to remove. I don't know who's it is but posted like that on a forum could cause spam attacks by email hunting bots. D&D - play it, love it, used it to bring 1 person to know Christ. Say and believe what you want and you can have deep conversations about delving into people's psychy but it's just a game. By the way...Tetris can lead to satanic worship too, anything that draws your attention from God and your relationship with Him can lead to satanic (false god) worship. |
