The problem is this: Many theologians will identify this crowd as the Christians that have been raptured out of the Great Tribulation (thus, having come out of the Great Tribulation), but there is a problem with that view. As of the writing, their tears have not yet been wiped away. You are therefore left with a choice that either there are tears in Heaven (which I believe that Scripture militates against), or this crowd is not in Heaven, but is worshiping from the earth, and therefore was not raptured out of the Great Tribulation at all, but survived through it and came out the other side worshiping God in spite of the things done to them. The Greek word translated “will wipe away” is in the future tense, according to my sources. The Greek translated “out of the Great Tribulation” is “ek tes thlipseis tes megales”(I am far from an expert at Biblical Greek, but this looks to me like “out of (ek) the tribulation (tes thlipseis) the great (tes megales)). This tells me that at the time of the vision, their tears had not yet been wiped away, but they were still worshiping in spite of their pain and anguish, having gone through the Great Tribulation and come out the other side.

What do you guys think?

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

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The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

They get so focused on "the Rapture - the Tribulation - the AntiChrist - the Mark of the Beast! " that they aren't paying attention to the world they live in now.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazarus:
They get so focused on "the Rapture - the Tribulation - the AntiChrist - the Mark of the Beast! " that they aren't paying attention to the world they live in now.

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I heartily agree. How much time is wasted arguing eschatology, which is purposefully not clear in the scriptures, while people all around us are dying without hearing the true gospel of Jesus?

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

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quote:

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As of the writing, their tears have not yet been wiped away. You are therefore left with a choice that either there are tears in Heaven (which I believe that Scripture militates against), or this crowd is not in Heaven, but is worshiping from the earth, and therefore was not raptured out of the Great Tribulation at all, but survived through it and came out the other side worshiping God in spite of the things done to them. The Greek word translated “will wipe away” is in the future tense, according to my sources. The Greek translated “out of the Great Tribulation” is “ek tes thlipseis tes megales”(I am far from an expert at Biblical Greek, but this looks to me like “out of (ek) the tribulation (tes thlipseis) the great (tes megales)). This tells me that at the time of the vision, their tears had not yet been wiped away, but they were still worshiping in spite of their pain and anguish, having gone through the Great Tribulation and come out the other side.

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I think the tears are wiped at this point, a fulfillment of Isa 25:8 and a parallel of Rev 21:4. I think it is "future" tense not because it is still future, but because it is a quote of an OT prophecy (which was future when it was given).

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Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

Check out this webhost! Fantastic prices, features and support!

quote:

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Originally posted by Ereon:
Honestly, recently I'm beginning to come to the point where I don't care. I know my final destination, and I know my current destination, and what lies between is God's business, I'm only along for the ride and to make sure I become as much like him as possible, melding his will into mine. If anyone wants to sit around, digging through piles of various interpretations so they can one-up each other in a theological battle of wits over what exactly God is going to do I'm cool with that, but personally, on most days I'd rather be searching out The Man Himself and getting whatever info I need first hand directly through His presence. Just my thoughts on the matter.

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I agree

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

As for us not knowing what will be going on, Jesus said when you see these things begin to happen to look up for our redemption draws near. Sounds like at least some know, if it really is close as I definitely believe than I am simply doing as I am instructed which is to be aware. Prophecy wasn’t given to confuse you and thus toss it aside, it’s a faith builder that takes real time for study, it was given to know that God is in control and reveals a lot about Him to us. Learn prophecy and gain understanding into His will, after all the book of Revelation is actually called the Revelation of Jesus Christ, it gives us something very meaty to digest and also contains a blessing for those that read and study it… as all prophecy does in my opinion though a bit more given for understanding this particular book since it does link to all previous prophecies and promises in the OT which is pretty much a study prereq to understand Revelation.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 21, 2007).]

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So, there are many powerful Christians who push "Rapture" and many other powerful Christians who push "Tribulation," and we little Christians can find it upsetting to be caught in between such a verbal war among the Brethren. We find it tempting to ignore the issue because of the ugliness of warring over the meaning of Scripture. But the Truth sets us free. If we do not feel free, then what we are believing is not the Truth. If any of us lacks wisdom, we only need to ask God for it. So, God, we ask You to show us what it means.

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As far as the specific topic, that seems right that if the tears are "to be" wiped away, and there are no tears in Heaven, then this scene would not be in Heaven. But perhaps since John was looking at events that were going to happen in the future, this future tense was actually the present for that crowd.

__________________________
The notion of being sucked up into the air in a blink of an eye comes from 2 Scriptures.

1Corinthians 15:51,52 "[look], I [show] you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

...note that it says nothing about being swept up, though. That comes from this scripture...

1Thessalonians 4:16-18 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in [The Anointed One] shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 [for the purpose of] comfort one another with these words."

The "man-made" part of being sucked up into the air is the time frame. We are "transformed" in the blink of an eye, but how quickly we rise up into the air, and when and how that happens is not specified. When Paul was taken up to the third Heaven, he repeatedly says that he did not know whether it was "in the body" or not. BUT, the important thing about the Scriptures is not to harbor ill will toward someone's interpretation, but to "comfort one another with these words." So take comfort, you who are in Christ: You won't go to hell or cease to exist, or stagnate for eternity, but you will be with the Lord!

_______________________
I believe that some of the interpretation of Scripture which refers to future events has yet to be revealed to us. Here is an example which supports this idea: When people said to Jesus "You are the Christ," He said that this had been revealed to them by the Father, and told them not to tell anyone. But Scripture which prophesied the coming of the Christ was right there for everybody to see. They couldn't see it because of the hardness of their hearts. But those who could see it were shown it by the Father, and they believed it. However, even these people were told not to tell others about what had been revealled to them: there was a timing of events that could not be executed too quickly.

Summarizing, God uses the hard hearts of the people to exact a perfect timing of events.

We see the same thing in the Exodus, where God uses the hard heart of Pharoh to bring about all ten plagues.

So, if we see this as a modus operandi of God, we should not be surprised that this is what is happening today.

In the past, we had Pharisees and Saducees. Today, we have other pairs of groups who battle over the meaning of Scripture. But battling over meaning will never give revelation. So the meaning of Scripture in the future is argued about, but revelation never comes. Revelation comes from not having a hard heart. If a person seeks revelation, they should do so with love and discretion, because the wisdom they get about the interpretation of Scripture pertaining to the future can cause hurt to those who are not ready to understand it. Song of Solomon says "Do not awaken Love until it so desires." So, some revelation might not be for everyone.

We should have a broken heart before God, and also have a compassionate heart toward those people who read are in the Tribulation.

quote:

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Originally posted by zookey:
Yeah, I didn't mean that it was intended to be confusing, but that the person telling us is trying to describe a modern problem (the apocalypse, which at bare minimum will be done with today's technology from atleast the war standpoint) but he only had access to vocabulary and ideas that was his time----so he had a very limited way to describe it to us and I think God intended it that way, he wants us to know it will happen but he wants Jesus to be the focus not the fire and brimstone.

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But that is not everything, some things can be understood. Enough to be understood by the study thereof that we can understand when these things begin to happen, to look up because the time is short. These things are beginning, they are like birth pangs arriving in greater intensity each time. I mean look at the world and its dilemma, the whole world is a cup of trembling over the reformation of the nation of Israel and that in itself has gotta be the leading sign that time is short now. Ezekiel 37 is being fulfilled in that and the rest will certainly follow.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 21, 2007).]

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[This message has been edited by zookey (edited April 21, 2007).]

quote:

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Originally posted by zookey:
Agreed---it could be a mountain or nuclear war or a combo---we aren't supposed to know the specifics---with the birth pangs, I agree but how do we know when the critical point is reached? I think we should obviously know that it is coming closer, but how far away it is I think is anyone's guess and even Jesus didn't know---I know a dude who says every year that the Rapture will happen by September of the current year---and every October it changes to the nextyear----I think we don't have an effective way to truly guess it---kinda like the Doomsday clock (Wikipedia it, it is an attempt to guess when the world will be destroyed by nuclear war and was invented in the 40's).

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Luke 21:32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

I don’t know about what year, that is never mentioned, but only the generation is mentioned. That generation will not pass away, or as I take it those that were born of that generation shall not die until it all hits the fan. How long a generation is, well I’m not exactly certain, some say 40 years and others say longer. Seems like people are living longer now so it may be longer for that generation to mature but not to the point where they pass away. So some say the clock started in 1967 when Jerusalem was captured and others believe it was shortly after WWII when the UN declared Israel to be a nation. All that is in God’s timing though, He seems to be the one deciding when it will start and what was the beginning for that clock, either time has weight though I have always viewed it as when Jerusalem was captured during the six-day war. I suppose without the Jews holding Jerusalem than the 70’th week of Daniel could not really start (aka 7 year tribulation).

But for the year, not sure, for about 20 years I always had the opinion that it’s close but more needs to unfold, but for the past five years or so I just see too much happening and am pretty set that we are looking at days, months or a few years away at most when it shall begin. Not actually setting any date, but my expectancy has grown as I have witnessed the gradual change in recent years. As birth pangs that come quicker as time passes, so do the intensity and frequency of these events. Some believe that it has already started, but I don’t hold that view, myself.

You follow the news? You know that the bees are dieing off? Maybe they will return and maybe they will die off, but the bible says that there will be a great famine and how very expensive it will be to just get meager rations. Some think it’s from cell phones, I tend to blame the sun for most everything concerning the environmental changes, but will not an angel make the sun so intense that people will be bunt from it? Then you have these insane growth spasms of technology which helps everyone network together, they are putting tracking chips in everything, add an ID to that and network it all together. UFO’s are flying all over the place, crazy storms and tsunamis are going nuts, yes the globe is warming though I blame the sun there and there are signs in the heavens such as other planets in our system heating up (I.e. they are getting global warming too). Many nations are being armed to the teeth with very destructive weapons, alliances are forming among nations against other nations which can culminate into a massive war, speaking of war Christians are being slaughtered in Africa and others are too busy defending themselves in other wars to help that situation. This is only the tip of the iceberg! I could go on and on. It’s enough to make anyone cry, and it’s only going to get worse with every pang until it breaks out and screams. But yes there will be no crying of this sort in heaven. Ah my video rendering is finished, gotta jet

(Of course, no one knows when Jesus will come back, but they seem to think they can predict it....)

quote:

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Originally posted by skynes:
Most amusing thing for me is that rapture theology is less than 200 years old... lol. The entire church up to 1860 never taught it.

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I just don't think it's important to get wrapped up in it. I know my final destination and that is with God, what happenes in between now and then doesn't matter. I have faith in God. God will provide.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

quote:

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Originally posted by skynes:
Most amusing thing for me is that rapture theology is less than 200 years old... lol. The entire church up to 1860 never taught it.

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“According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, NIV)

Putting these two passages together tells me that all of the dead will rise at Christ's return, for He will return with a loud command and with the trumpet call of God and all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to eternal life, and those who have done evil to be condemned.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

[This message has been edited by TallBill (edited April 23, 2007).]

John 5 also was being directed at the Jews, to them the Church was a complete mystery and had nothing to do with the conversation, but in Thes the Church had been revealed and this was directed at the Church and not the Jews. Always keep in mind when trying to piece different scriptures together the words being said were directed towards different groups thus the meanings are a bit different when trying to integrate them into a single perspective or discourse.

Honestly, I don't know what to think. Every verse I have ever heard that 'alludes' to the rapture doesn't seem to come out and truly say it--where as, for example, versus where Jesus claims his divinity are pretty clear cut (which makes it easier to make a choice on that issue, we know he said he was the messiah it is just down to do you believe it or not) whereas 'rapture' versus don't seem to carry the same weight-----and I asked a good friend (whom is a strong Christian and lives in Europe) and he actually went in depth with his answer---he felt that the rapture was made up in the 1800's as an attempt to cash in on people's ignorance---and the people he said who made it up are predominatly listed in Wikipedia as being connected to rapture lore---and those individuals have shady pasts (one of them left his ex wife and 2 daughters destitute and took his ex mother in law's last 1300 bucks--after 'becoming' a christian) and certainly seem to be the shyster personalities. As for me, I am not totally decided, if the rapture happens it will be a nice surprise---but I am leaning way towards that it is probably a fallacy---which is sad, because once the Tribulation events start happening how many people will feel God abandoned them and leave his protection just because the rapture doesn't either happen or happens later than they expected? Honestly, Jesus and God should be our aim anyways---we know very little about the end times outside of the trumpets, bowls, seals, Antichrist and 666. What we do know, however, is that God sent his son so that whoever believes in him won't die but will have everlasting life---and that has a ton more hope to it than wondering what may or may not happen----LOL sorry I don't mean to sound judgemental or anything---honestly this forum has caused me to question my own beliefs in regards to the end times and I was shocked at the end I have reached---but after talking with people I trust in I think that the rapture probably won't happen but, most importantly, it isn't something for us to focus on. God is in control, he is more powerful than everything, and there is absolutely no way we will know if we are the generation that will see Revelations fulfilled----Jesus himself didn't know (side rant NOT TALKING ABOUT ANYONE HERE: it totally frustrates me when people claim to know the day, in effect claiming to be smarter than Jesus---how the heck does their logic work?? if they know stuff Jesus didn't why do they still need him for salvation then?)

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quote:

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Originally posted by zookey:
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm

Honestly, I don't know what to think. Every verse I have ever heard that 'alludes' to the rapture doesn't seem to come out and truly say it--

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If that was what you were bringing up anyway… no offense but I cant read that big block od letters, it honestly hurts me eyes. I mean for me the rapture thing is on the far end of a secondary issue, it is just a part of my overall view on eschatology and general theology. I’m a dispensationalist (Ac3), been so since I was 20. I’m not worried when the rapture takes place, it’s just a view that fits very well within Dispensationalism and I believe that it will happen.

I’m not really worried is anyone accepts the view of being “caught-up” or “Raptura” from the greek texts, I generally don’t get into discussions about it and certainly don’t bother with debates. I kinda get drawn into them when people start talking smack against my brothers and sisters in Christ though. I’d always prefer to talk about more important issues of the theology like the future role of ethnic Israel.

Rapture works for me though, I mainly believe that it will happen at the beginning of the tribulation since the Church is the Bride of Christ and the wedding takes place during the tribulation. Plan on missing that? I certainly don’t. The Church simply goes home to attend our wedding, that’s the end of the mortal Church on Earth from then on, then things change, a new group arises as has happened before, you have the tribulation saints and the Jews busting butt for Christ during the GT. They are in for one wild ride, I’d be tempted to stay here and preach the word in this time (I‘m really not afraid to die haha), but I have an important engagement that I have not plans to miss.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 24, 2007).]

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Plan on missing that? I certainly don’t.

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Those of us who do not hold the pretrib view aren't planning on missing that, since we obviously don't believe it happens then in the first place.

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Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

Check out this webhost! Fantastic prices, features and support!

2 Corinthians 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

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So then you are of the school of thought with some that the Church is not the Bride of Christ but that the city itself, the New Jerusalem, is the Bride of Christ?

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Nope. The bride is made of believers.

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the bride was ready and it took place, not on earth with an inanimate object but the wedding takes place in Heaven during the tribulation between Christ and the Church.

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Nowhere does scripture say this - it doesn't say it already took place during the trib, it doesn't say it takes place in heaven. There is no mention of the wedding and the bride being ready until after, at Christ's return, in Rev 19. We don't plan on missing that, as we believe it doesn't happen until scripture says it happens.

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Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

Check out this webhost! Fantastic prices, features and support!

2 Cor is not directed generically at “believers” the conversation is directed at the Church, the Bride of Christ.

quote:

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Originally posted by TallBill:
Putting these two passages together tells me that all of the dead will rise at Christ's return, for He will return with a loud command and with the trumpet call of God and all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out—those who have done good to eternal life, and those who have done evil to be condemned.

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TallBill brings up a very good observation, which is a good example of the principle of "let the clear interpret the unclear". I am not settled on my eschatology at all, but I will state a couple things:

-the recent development (as someone brought up, 1860s) of modern eschatology is a huge mark against it. As I understand it, it is a direct result of a change in some core presuppositions about the Bible, especially the focus on discontinuity in the Old and New Testaments, rather than continuity. I have trouble believing that such a drastic shift, so late in the game, that is largely out of line with historic Christian belief, is reasonable. It is also interesting to note that many American cults whose roots are in the 1800s stemmed directly from their founders' trying to come up with new ideas about the end times. (I am not calling dispensationalism a cult, but I am saying that it is a child of its time)

-We have to remember that God will not violate something stated very clearly just to accomplish some esoteric way of accomplishing something that is vaguely alluded to. Be very careful that you don't get so attached to a particular interpretation of Revelation that you're willing to re-interpret other, clearer passages.

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it's pronounced "tonics"

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
It does not say “until after” reread the passage.

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Well, it certainly doesn't say "before" this time, which is the final return of Christ! This is its first mention, and the bride is ready. Weird thing to say if the wedding was already over. Instead, this is when the event happens. It is announced: the bride is ready, the marriage is come.

quote:

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Once it is mentioned that is the last of it te be read, because it already happened before the second coming.

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Where does it say it already happened? Show me. "It does not say “already happened” reread the passage."

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2 Cor is not directed generically at “believers” the conversation is directed at the Church, the Bride of Christ.

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I meant that as a synonym, I assumed you would figure that out - unless you think there are people in the Bride of Christ who are not believers.

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Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

Check out this webhost! Fantastic prices, features and support!

Why would you want to go back to that? I mean if things that are in scripture are not to be believed because historically the Church did not believe them than how can you believe anything post reformation?

It’s not what someone can get from scripture that is the danger, it is the things people dream up from outside of scripture that where the danger lays, that is where cults start. Why didn’t the historical Church believe in things like the rapture or translating the scriptures in various languages? Because the clergy was in fear of loosing power. Shoot even if you said the wrong things during the time of the historical Church you were put to death, so if such ideas of scriptures existed they were burnt with the martyred.

So this whole idea that it can’t be true because they didn’t teach it 500 or so years ago is… not my idea of a good view to hold.

quote:

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Originally posted by BrianT:
Where does it say it already happened?

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quote:

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I mean if things that are in scripture are not to be believed because historically the Church did not believe them than how can you believe anything post reformation?

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I don't think that's what's going on here. The historical eschatology view is also from scripture. It's not like it is based only on "tradition", but then "scripture" came along in the 1800s and set everyone straight. The historical view is also scriptural. It was a new interpretation of scripture in the 1800s that led to the pretrib view.

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It’s not what someone can get from scripture that is the danger, it is the things people dream up from outside of scripture that where the danger lays, that is where cults start.

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I disagree. The Mormons, JWs, and other use scripture. It's the interpretation that is the problem.

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Why didn’t the historical Church believe in things like the rapture or translating the scriptures in various languages? Because the clergy was in fear of loosing power.

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Partially, certainly. But also because they feared (and justifiable so, it appears, considering the last few hundred years) everybody and their nephew coming up with their own faulty, unauthoritative, conflicting interpretations - resulting in an explosion of denominations, cults, and general doctrinal disagreement and confusion.

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So this whole idea that it can’t be true because they didn’t teach it 500 or so years ago is… not my idea of a good view to hold.

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If that's the entire issue, I would agree with you. But it's not that simple - the contention is that the entire church taught something different, based on scripture. In other words: if pretrib is correct (which technically is a possibility), then not only is "tradition" wrong (which wouldn't bother a lot of people), but so was the standard (exclusive?) interpretation of scripture by the church for approx 1800 years. Not a comforting thought.

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Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

Check out this webhost! Fantastic prices, features and support!

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
[QUOTE]
Has come, not will come. Has can be past or present. If it will come than it would be mentioned again after the second coming which it is not.

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Again, it is announced, it is come, the bride is ready. I'm not saying it's still way in the future at this point, but rather it is come at this point. It's announced at the return of Christ, and that's why we believe it takes place at the return of Christ. Simple.

[This message has been edited by BrianT (edited April 24, 2007).]

quote:

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Originally posted by BrianT:

I disagree. The Mormons, JWs, and other use scripture. It's the interpretation that is the problem.

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I recall Satan using scripture too, and Jesus rebuked him and said not to tempt God because he was using it to temp Jesus into throwing himself down so that the Angels would need to rescue Him. Does that mean all scripture is in error because Satan can use it to his will?

quote:

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Originally posted by BrianT:
If that's the entire issue, I would agree with you. But it's not that simple - the contention is that the entire church taught something different, based on scripture.

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And the Church was never directly mentioned until Pentecost, so it cant exist? Yet we have the scriptures that say these things such as the catching up of the Church, but people choose not to believe it because of Church tradition. Sadly, much of that tradition was erected by a Church that at times had interests of retaining power rather than maturing in the written word. Even the reformation did not go far enough as far as I’m concerned, in that they only covered essential topics but other things were slow coming to understand such as eschatology. In time though, as the Church matured these things can be understood, but not in a single lifetime.

When I read of the historical Church I see an immature Church that had a long ways to go before any real maturity could be achieved. Much of that is due to the growth in Knowledge and Wisdom being stunted by power hungry clergy that sought after power and not wisdom thus retained the knowledge to themselves disallowing the Church to be aware of the many truths of God’s word. I mean the Church existed just the same but it was a mess and getting worse.

But people like to point to this historical church and try to set their course by it, I just don’t understand this reasoning. It makes no sense to me, it’s as if I were to wish to play in the mud with my plastic armymen once again, attend the first grade and ask permission to go into the back yard to play. But I am mature and have passed those bonds, and so has the Church. I mean we all like to look fondly back at our childhood, but that does not mean that is the best position we can hope for, to return, to drinking milk and being tucked into bed each night. Let the Church mature, the days of the historical Church is over, long gone and yet perfected having gone home to be with the Lord to those members there of.

Maybe there is a difference here, you possibly attend a traditional Church while I do not. I use to long ago but left to unite with a bible believing Church. We throw traditions out and rely upon the scriptures alone, no external sources, no traditions, no long held beliefs if it is not taught by scripture alone. I just don’t put any stock in traditions, many of them were carried thru the reformation from the Catholic Church and I’m just not Catholic but simply a born again bible believing Christian.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 24, 2007).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
They do? Since when? I didn’t know that the book of Mormon was the bible. Or that the New World Translations were authentic and accurate translations.

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Mormons use the KJV as well, they just interpret it wrong. The JWs existed for decades before they produced the NWT, by using valid translations but just interpreting them wrong.

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I recall Satan using scripture too, and Jesus rebuked him and said not to tempt God because he was using it to temp Jesus into throwing himself down so that the Angels would need to rescue Him. Does that mean all scripture is in error because Satan can use it to his will?

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No, it does not mean that, and I don't understand how you reached that conclusion from my comments.

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And the Church was never directly mentioned until Pentecost, so it cant exist?

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Depends on how you define "the Church" I guess, but regardless, finding an instance of something existing before it is mentioned does not mean something else existed before it is mentioned. In regards to the marriage of the Bride, why would the text say the bride has made herself ready, if the marriage had already happened?

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Yet we have the scriptures that say these things such as the catching up of the Church, but people choose not to believe it because of Church tradition.

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No, that is wrong. The catching up was believed, it is the timing of the event being before Christ's final glorious return that was not believed. Scripture clearly refers to the catching up (and this has never been debated), but placing that event at any other time other than Christ's return is what is relatively new.

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they only covered essential topics but other things were slow coming to understand such as eschatology. In time though, as the Church matured these things can be understood, but not in a single lifetime.

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Perhaps to some extent, but that doesn't change the fact that the "traditional view" is still entirely scriptural, and still the majority view of the church as a whole, despite some groups (who are no more "mature" in my opinion) deviating in this matter.

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When I read of the historical Church I see an immature Church that had a long ways to go before any real maturity could be achieved. Much of that is due to the growth in Knowledge and Wisdom being stunted by power hungry clergy that sought after power and not wisdom thus retained the knowledge to themselves disallowing the Church to be aware of the many truths of God’s word.

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In some instances, sure. But I don't feel as comfortable as you in making sweeping generalizations, or applying such generalizations to my pet doctrines without direct evidence it applies in such cases.

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But people like to point to this historical church and try to set their course by it, I just don’t understand this reasoning. It makes no sense to me, it’s as if I were to wish to play in the mud with my plastic armymen once again, attend the first grade and ask permission to go into the back yard to play. But I am mature and have passed those bonds, and so has the Church. I mean we all like to look fondly back at our childhood, but that does not mean that is the best position we can hope for, to return, to drinking milk and being tucked into bed each night. Let the Church mature,

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There is some truth and wisdom to your words, but we should not arbitrarily exchange historical, scriptural doctrine in favor of new doctrine, all in the name of "maturity".

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the days of the historical Church is over, long gone

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The mantra of cults everywhere.

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Maybe there is a difference here, you possibly attend a traditional Church while I do not. I use to long ago but left to unite with a bible believing Church. We throw traditions out and rely upon the scriptures alone, no external sources, no traditions, no long held beliefs if it is not taught by scripture alone.

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Show me in scripture where the rapture happens before the trib. You can't, it's not there. It sounds to me like you're simply accepting someone else's younger tradition.

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I’m just not Catholic but simply a born again bible believing Christian.

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I believe the Bible as well.

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Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

Check out this webhost! Fantastic prices, features and support!

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The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

The whole idea of pretribulation rapture theology was put forth by John Nelson Darby in the early 1800's (around 1830, I think), based on his preconception that the LORD has two distinct peoples: the Jews and the Church.

That preconception, though, goes against Scriptural teaching, wherein Jesus teaches (while speaking to His Jewish disciples) that while He has another flock, of another sheep fold, both will be brought together into one flock. That one flock is the Church, which consists of genuine believers, both Old Testament and New, all of which are saved by Grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, and not of works, that no man may boast.

The only race of humans is the human race. In the eyes of God there are no differences. All who achieve eternal life do it the same way: by Grace through faith, and not by any form of works. Pretribulation rapture theology teaches that the Jewish Temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, and that temple sacrifices would be re-instituted. This teaching is at the best unnecessary, and at the worst anti-Biblical, as it flies in the face of the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice upon the Cross, whereon He proclaimed loudly, “Tetellestai!” (It is finished! It is complete! It is perfect and without blemish of any sort!)

Pretribulation rapture theology is based on the racist concept that Jews are different than gentiles even though the Bible teaches emphatically that this is not the case, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Most who follow such teaching are unaware of these implications because those who teach it do not teach these implications, but these implications are there nonetheless.

Jesus boldly proclaimed “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life! No one comes to the Father except through Me.” Pretribulation rapture theology teaches that re-instituted temple sacrifices will be effective for Jews and it therefore teaches that Jews have another way to the Father and therefore that Jesus' own proclamation is false and therefore that He is a liar and therefore that the gospel is false and therefore that the Bible is false and therefore that Christianity is false. It is an unbreakable chain that calls God a liar. Pretribulation rapture theology is therefore false.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

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Originally posted by BrianT:
Mormons use the KJV as well, they just interpret it wrong. The JWs existed for decades before they produced the NWT, by using valid translations but just interpreting them wrong.

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They carry the KJV, but they don’t use it. The KJV is superseded by the book of Mormon for them. The first thing they did was create their new scriptures claiming that the Church had fallen away. When a Mormon flashes a KJV before your eyes and says they use it, it’s just a piece of stink bait on a hook in their eyes, nothing more.

JW’s have had the NWT for a very long time, in fact many versions of it which nullifies every previous translation as being in error. They denied the trinity from their beginning and the workings of salvation apart from works and all the rest of that.

Honestly, there is nothing new under the sun, it’s just the same thing over and over, so expecting Dispys to up and split off from the Church all of the sudden and form a cult is just not going to happen. Dispys don’t claim to be the restored Church from a Church that fell away or something, we all believe the same essential doctrines and in many cases more strongly than some traditional churches. Heck some (that’s some) traditional Churches don’t even teach from the bible but churn out feel good philosophical sound bites from the pulpit. But speaking for my Church at least (my local Church) we have our noses berried in scripture alone and cant get enough of it. And beyond that, if you take the time to study the different schools of Dispensationalism, there are different camps. So in that you cannot paint a broad picture either and lump them all into a single frame of thought. I mean such as the people on TBN, that stuff freaks me out, but that does not cover everyone by their doctrine of dispensationalism.. if that is what that is.

Ultimately though, I doubt I can convince anyone here of the timing for the rapture in itself. That’s why if you look around you see threads about the rapture go on for countless pages. The rapture is only a side issue and unless you have all the other points of doctrine understood it just won’t click, it would be like trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. The rapture isn’t essential to the view, it’s the who is who in the bible; who the different groups are and what God has planned for them.

Such as if you think God is done with the Jews, than there is no reason you would accept a pre-trib rapture in that case, I mean it just would not make sense. That would mean that people would need to accept where ever the Church is mentioned in the bible it is referring to the Church, and where it says the Jews, it is referring to the Jews and not the Church or as some refer to as the “spiritual Israel”. This is also known as replacement theology, it is where the scripture is spiritualized rather than taken as literal, this was the problem with the Catholic Church and it continued through the reformation as well.

And then there are other important things to be aware of, and I would not mind trying to go through it, but I see by Ereon’s post that this is just not a discussion that is going to be ok to talk about here and I just don’t want to get people all up in arms because I have different ideas about some things than others. Hey well, the thread was created, I usually don’t bother with these threads (for obvious reasons) but felt compelled to post a few times if the OP was being sincere and not just laying some self minded trap to start a long debate (happens a lot) and try to make someone look bad or cause division. I don’t think that was his intention of course so that’s why I posted, I’ll keep this in mind the next time a topic like this pops up here though.

Peace

If you want further insights to Dispensationalism (for those that really are curious), I suggest picking up some books, tune into the Calvary Chapel Satellite Network http://www.csnradio.com/ or Check out Billy Grahams ministries, he is one of my favorite Dispensationalists.

I’m definitely done with this thread now, peace out.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 25, 2007).]

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Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
They carry the KJV, but they don’t use it....JW’s have had the NWT for a very long time

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The point is simply that they have wrong interpretations of scripture. They see things like "the firstborn of every creature" (Col 1:15) and "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14) as meaning Jesus was the first thing created. They see instances of Jesus referring to the Father as his God as evidence against the Trinity. But whatever, this is turning into a tangent.

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so expecting Dispys to up and split off from the Church all of the sudden and form a cult is just not going to happen.

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Who said that?

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Such as if you think God is done with the Jews, than there is no reason you would accept a pre-trib rapture in that case, I mean it just would not make sense.

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I do not hold to "replacement theology", but I do believe dispensationalists are wrong in resurrecting the Old Covenant (Testament). The New Covenant (Testament) is not just for the "church", it is for the Israelites as well (Heb 8:8-13)! There is not two ways of salvation, depending on your nationality.

Also, rejecting replacement theology does not mean you have to bump the rapture back in time.

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And then there are other important things to be aware of, and I would not mind trying to go through it, but I see by Ereon’s post that this is just not a discussion that is going to be ok to talk about here

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I wouldn't worry too much about that. People that don't want to discuss it simply don't have to.

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Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

Check out this webhost! Fantastic prices, features and support!

It is quite likely that they have never noticed the pervasive use of “Israel” and “Jacob” throughout the Prophets when the prophets are distinguishing between the profligate and the faithful. The faithful are known as “Israel” while the rest are called “Jacob”, and when Nathaniel met Jesus, Jesus said of him, “Here is a true Israelite. There is nothing false in him.” Jesus did not define “true Israelite” by heritage, but by faith. David would be a true Israelite; Saul before him, would not, though both are physically from the tribes of Israel. Jezebel would not be, but Ruth would, though Ruth was physically a Moabite. Rahab would be, but Achan would not, though physically, Achan was the one descended from Jacob. It is by faith that you are saved, and not by heritage, so the charge of “Replacement Theology” is a straw man that will, in God’s time, be burned to the ground.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

[This message has been edited by TallBill (edited April 25, 2007).]