spade89 Member Posts: 561 From: houston,tx Registered: 11-28-2006 |
i love christian songs,i love to praise the lord,but is it wrong to listen to non-religious music?when i say music i am not refering to music that promots sex,drug and cursing,i am talking about music that is about love or just music that doesn't promote any sinful activities.many christians strongly dissaprove of listening music,and i like to find out why?and that baffles me the most is most of these people who dissaprove of music listening do enjoy lots of earthly pleasures.god has blessed us with lots of earthly pleasures what is wrong with celebrating this pleasures as long as we don't sin?is it because most of the musicians aren't christians? ------------------ |
kenman Member Posts: 518 From: Janesville WI Registered: 08-31-2006 |
Excellent question. A lot of it will depend on where your maturity level is as a chritian. If you are not grounded in your belief, then it will be easier for you to be blown off course. If you are set in your beliefs then you can take it for a grain of salt. In my day and age, there were all out record burning parties where people burned records that they thought were evil. Well, that was a little extreme, but the point was that when you listen to music, it can and sometimes does get into your soul. Can you remember the last time you just started humming a song. You didn't think about it. It was in you. Well, if something BAD is in you something BAD can come out. Well, I have rambled (on topic though) I listen to both Praise and Worship, and some NON praise and worship, but I won't listen to any dark evil stuff. Each person will have to make their choice and EACH person may have a different answer depending on where they are in their walk.
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
is it wrong to watch non-religious movies? is it wrong to read non-religious books? is it wrong to eat non-religious food? is it wrong to breathe non-religious air?
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Jari Member Posts: 1471 From: Helsinki, Finland Registered: 03-11-2005 |
Hi, the thing with secular music is that the artists sing about earthly pleasures and/or there is not god in their songs which makes the message of the song to be about joy/fortune on earth and not in heaven where it really is. Some may even even sing about heaven on earth. But we are just strangers here on earth, waiting for being home with our Father and the way to there is through Jesus. In Christ, ------------------ [VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3) |
SumGI Member Posts: 29 From: *Western* Montana (Oh yeah we have computers!), USA Registered: 09-16-2006 |
Hence, I listen to non-vocal music ------------------ |
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Press search to look for older topics about this. I Posted about this 2 times, and I give links and facts that say it is bad for you, and says how classical or chanting is good for you to listen to. People are supposed to get better and not indulge. But if you had to say what is bad I would say popular music and it would be better to listen to country than what is hip and popular. Country music sells more but they present on TV that the pop music sells more and is more popular but is it not. It's all hype to persuade people. Also the fact that most popular singers use the money for immoral things which Christians encourage every time they buy their things. ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
quote: so... everytime I download a song off limewire... I'm helping an artist with his or her spiritual walk? awesome. *boots up limewire* Offspring, this is for your own good.
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spade89 Member Posts: 561 From: houston,tx Registered: 11-28-2006 |
yes,yes i agree music is bad,but all music?i love and fear the lord but many times in the bible-music and dancing are refered to as means of expressing joy,music has a way of getting into your soul but even if the person who made the song wasn't christian or maybe he was evil,but still i am not asking whether i should make musicians my role-models ,i am asking we have a natural sense for music that god gave us,not just to make it but to also enjoy it.as far as the whole pop/hip-hop thing goes i'm not in-to that kind of music.most of the music these days promote sex,drugs,and other stuff too.i like oldes songs,like from the 80's or 70's,you can find some real good music out there that doesn't promote evil,and if the musicians are sinners it's not my place to judge them or discriminate them in anyway that god's job.and do you really think if everyone suddenly stopped buying their records-that they would suddenly return to god? see,i think it is this kind of labeling that resulted in the evil music culture we mostly see nowadays ,instead of picking the good music out and promoting that, people started labeling all music as evil so all the musicians became[and are becoming] evil.we all seem to be forgetting that music isn't a new thing it's been around since the dawn our creation,and we started labeling it evil just in the last half-century or so,isn't celebrating what god created indirectly celebrating god?.love,happines,memories,family,holidays,emotions---god gave us all this things and we always thank him in our prayers,religious-songs,good-deeds but what about celebrating,sharing and feeling these gifts-from god . music brings out the bad in you because we have been raised to think that music is evil,therefore whenever we listen to music, we are subconscously thinking that we are doing something wrong so if we can get our-selves to listen to music it'd be as if we got ourselves to do evil ,so that's like opening a door to evil. So in other words music is evil because we've been made to believe it is. i know that lot's of people disagree with me on this point but god gave us a conscious, a sense of right and wrong.and something inside me tells me that if music was the true reason behind this whole hip/hop,pop,and hard-rock phenomena the bible would definetly had said something about it .I Believe that"The power to question is the basis for all human progress." as gandhi said. instead of throwing away this great gift we got from god we should question what the true roots of sin and evil in today's world is.after all you can't find a cure without knowing the true symptoms . so music is probably the devil's most poweful way of promoting sin, evil and anti-christianity if we keep labeling and discriminating all music and musicians that would indirectly be promoting the devil's cause ,instead of saying all music is bad we should be pointing out the non-evil music and condemning the evil one.why is music a weapon just for the devil why can't we use it to promote christ,god and all the good that he created.people that are drawn into today's music culture are just drawn into it because it's their natural instinct to celebrate all good,and instead of showing these people which music is good we are telling them that all music is bad,hence they choose the music that appeals to them the most-which is the bad kind of song. i know this whole,thing is just rambling but i am just trying to make a point. i'll be searching for other topics similar to this one if they have some points i haven't yet seen. ------------------ |
buddboy Member Posts: 2220 From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S. Registered: 10-08-2004 |
haha!! 'religious'. seriously, i only care about the content. if it's not 'christian' or 'religious', then so? we don't have to absorb only christian media. like arch pointed out. haha 'non-religious air'. "MUSIC IS BAD!!!!!! ROCK IS OF THE DEVILLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!" warsong, we've all heard that point of view time and again, and not just from you. Seriously I love what a comedian (yes, he was christian) said: Catholics see Mary in everything, Protestants see the devil in everything. Just look at the content. I listen to plenty of secular music. and christian music. all I'm concerned about is what is in the song(s). not the 'religiousness' of that band. ------------------ |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
Keep in mind many of those Classical greats were not accepted by many "Christians" at the time for their "revolutionary" music that was faster pace and a lot heavier. It's the same thing now. People repeat themselves, we aren't really that creative in our narrow minded discrimination. I personally listen to a wide variety of music from Christian to Secular... from Metal (just about every type of metal except black metal) to Classical. Those of you that don't think more modern music can be as soothing and/or complex and/or deep as classic should really do so more research. A lot of modern metal (to think of a Christian metal band that does this well is Tourniquet) mimics and builds off of some of the greatest classical styles (including Bach), just with different instruments. Usually it comes down to the content for me. For me to enjoy it it definately doesn't need to be "Christian" just implying a message that I may agree with or find some value in a very artistic ways. The only two types of music I typically cannot stand are: - Country Often too depressing subject matter for me, plus no real appeal to the sound. - Rap The content of rap usually has no appeal to me, money, sex, and drugs, etc. ------------------ |
buddboy Member Posts: 2220 From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S. Registered: 10-08-2004 |
same exact dislikes here. only country i like is Johnny Cash, and that's not quite all country. plus he just rocks anyways. yeah the rap messages don't here. plus it isn't really music. only rap I like is TOBYMAC and that is christian. Tourniqet baby!!! yeeyah!!!! ------------------ |
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Christian rock bands can be worse than other bands since they are like wolves if sheep's clothings in a way. It is oxymorinic thing to have a Christian metal band. Well here are some things I said in other posts. Chanting and classical have the same origins, but some classical like opera or fast classical is not so good for many reasons. Here is a site that explains a lot about the benefits of chanting and classical and the negative of most other music. http://www.reversespins.com/health.html "Hard Rock or Heavy Metal music may be hazardous to one's health...University of Medicine in Brussels " "researcher says drivers who listen to fast music in their cars may have more than twice as many accidents as those listening to slower tracks." "Countless studies now show that listening to classical music is beneficial to young children...” "chanting along with classical music reduces stress, anxiety and depression... memory and power of concentration are enhanced during one's life- time" Another site says “Its power is contained in its ability to by-pass reason, penetrating straight into the soul, into the subconscious, and to manipulate a person's feelings.” Christ warns of that.
You can not improve perfection you can only degrade it. “5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
quote: haha. well, duh. fast music is adrenaline inducing; you'll take more chances in a car, drive a little faster. frankly, it's a whole lot more fun driving to fast music, albiet driving at night with classical is cool, too. heck, driving fast to classical is cool. anyhow, this doesn't make fast music inherently bad, just like talking a friend isn't inherently bad even though that is the number 1 distraction when driving. besides, how boring would life be if it was just slow and calm? ------------------ |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
@Warsong: Please cite your resources. Whenever you post argumentative research and studies it is often common curteousy to post where you got them and who did them. It is also key to remember that not all studies represent a generalization as you are saying. That is why they oftens say things like:
quote: Key words being may have. What test sample did they use? What were the rest of the details of the situation, what driving history did the drivers have? Did the driver have a history of short attention spans? Did the driver have aggression and anger issues? To me those are much more valid surrounding details than the music. I have listened to some of the heaviest music (often some of the greatest, most poetic lyrics) while driving and haven't noticed a change in my driving. In fact I have found that slow chanting music while I drive may put me too much at ease. When driving (especially in a big city during rush hour) you need to mantain a medium level of focus, energy, and alertness. Calming one too much can cause problems as well. I'm assuming you made the assumption that fast music causes more crashes from this article - entitled "Fast music linked to car crashes" http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2032
Hardly a decisive study. Nothing is proving using 28 students in a test, not involving behavior. For all we know the risk taking he encountered could be forcing heavy and fast music on those that don't normally listen to it. I mean if I had to drive around listening to Rap or Country I would become extremely distracted myself since I really dislike those types of music. In fact he even concedes that a simulator might not represent real behavior on the road. I mean you are much more likely to take risks in a simulation:
quote: To me this study is just as accurate as Darwin's theory. It is simple conjecture based on an extremely limited test that proves absolutely nothing. Hardly convincing evidence. This is why you cite your quotes. Just because "researchers" said something it doesn't make it true. Remember many "researchers" try to convince us God is not real and Darwin's theory (more proven incorrect than correct) is true.
quote: I think it's naive to discriminate a certain type of music because of its tempo. You are judging a book by it's cover and based on stereotyped biases.
Why? Because for quite a while it hasn't been a fully accepted music. Those that want to rebel seek the thing people publicly accept. Of course in some nations Christianity is the thing people publicly don't accept so that alone doesn't make it evil, unless you are prepared to deem yourself as evil. Those narrow minded views of yours are aligned with those that say Dungeons and Dragons is evil, yet they hypocritically support C.S. Lewis and the stories of Narnia. Just because a certain type of game or a certian type of music has been attributed to certain types of groups of people doesn't make the actual device evil. In fact claiming that a type of game or a type of music is evil is the same as saying a Sword is evil, or a Gun is evil. They are simply tools, they can be used for good or evil. The focus should be on the intent and message sent using them and mainly on the person weilding them. If a holy and just person weilds a sword we call him a biblical hero. If an evil and unjust man does then we call him a savage murdering tyrant. Don't mix up the tool with the weilder. Heavy music can be used for bad and good, just as Soft and classical music can be used for bad and good. What good would soft classical music be if it implanted subliminal messages to deny Christ? Then maybe our society would turn against Classical music saying it is the devil's work... even though it simply is a tool. On a final note, do any of you watch Myth Busters on Discovery? They did an interesting study with plants and how different types of music affected them. Rock music had the most successful impact on making the plant grow faster. ------------------ |
bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
@warsong I LOVE YOU! :P ------------------ proverbs 25:7 www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
That sounded strange for some reason... |
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Arch- your opinion is noted, did you read the rest of the link? Benny- hu? Matt- I did cite my resources. Did you press on the link? The link says more but I am not going to quote over 2 pages worth or quotes. The quotes are for people to make people go to the links. lol Rebels are just another product of the culture and the media as one post I has that was talking about a documentary called "the merchants of cool". There is more to the argument that what you say. As for plants it doesn't matter about music but about vibration, and we are not plants.
Well a priest said something like this Music like art have been distorted in the last 100 years to be worse. You can say you appreciate the virgin marry pained in elephant dung as good but and peoples taste but in the end deep down we know what is right but many are addicted to earthy pleasures. If people spend more time listening to man than to god then we might not be on the right path, and that includes music. [This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 12, 2006).] |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
...Warsong, are you saying rock music is bad - or all music is bad except some form of classical, or something else? |
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Laz Read both sides of the information, so read the links to get a better idea. But better music benefits people more and God wants people to benefit and not get worse or maintain the same. Popular music goes against Christianity in many ways and they know it's anti Christian which is why the record industry pushes for it and persuades people to think that its not. I haven't bought music or downloaded any of them. It is odd that people complain about giving $1 to church a week but will give over $10-100 to silly things that will hurt them with they do not notice every week. Even many musicians say their music is a joke and a hustle and that they cant play. You have singers like Jessica's Simpson that her album failed and when she came out with her TV show the same record was the top selling record. They sell people an image and not real music. People should learn about music history then maybe they can appreciate what is good. You think any of the musicians have a masters degree in music? I know music majors that say its a joke and the real music is considered underground music since people are not presented with quality music. People are getting fed with junk food music just like everything else they buy that is junk. Junk food may taste good and you won't feel bad but in long run it will hurt you, just like the other forms of junk pop culture makes. Good music lasts the test of time, which is why classical and chanting are one of the oldest that go thought out all cultures and still are listen to despite all these hyped up songs that keep coming out from a bunch of untalented musicians that know very little about music, and the best audience to sell it to are people that know even less. It's the blind leading the blind. [This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 12, 2006).] |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
Well yeah - anything Jessica Simpson produced would be awful. |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: You did not. You gave me a link to a page that has a link to the page you were talking about. "researcher says drivers who listen to fast music in their cars may have more than twice as many accidents as those listening to slower tracks." That article is actually a seperate page but linked to on the page you gave. When you use a study as a point of proof you often point out who did the study, where (not a massive list, but the actual place) you got it, and why we should listen to what they have to say. I am also very interested in my counter argument to your use of that study. I mean the study used 28 students. Not even close to approaching a provable test base. The guy who did it also said that the results in the simulator may not match on the open road. I am honestly curious why you would take such a study (that the guy who did it even says it may not be a good comparisson) as proof of something?
quote: I find that funny considering in certain countries, and even certain places here in the US, being a Christian is being a rebel/ So I guess we are just products of culture?
quote: What priest, does he have any degrees, what are his credentials, what are his studies, has he released any official or unofficial papers, if so on what topics. Basically give me a reason why I would listen to anything he said... because just saying "a priest" actually causes me to not want to listen to what he has to say. I have found many priests to be un-inspired and ridiculously attached to traditions, steroetypes, bigotry, and various other types of discrimination more than non-priests.
quote: "Worse" is a relative term though. So it's your opinion that it has become worse, though I disagree greatly with that. In fact I would personally argue that music hasn't actually gotten worse or better.
quote: Well for one, "good" is a relative term. So please define what your usage of "good" means and what music you deem as good. Ok I read most of the article you mentioned at this link: http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/rock/
quote: Then to suppoprt that he says:
quote: (most of the article goes on with the same general short minded generalizations) So apparently God generalizes is what he is saying lol. So if I find soft and chanting music that supports bad things then all soft and chanting music must be bad... and it wouldn't be hard to find soft chanting music that teaches bad things, considering there are many tribal and pagan (including modern wicans and old and modern druids) soft and chanting music that is far from what we would deem as teaching "good" things.
quote: In this I agree completely... though there are lots of underground christian rock and heavy rock bands that are amazingly talented and very much christians and spread the word of God. Aparently you would call them bad for spreading the word of God? Do you think God hates a fast tempo, or music that may excite you. The same God that strikes vengeance down and wins and wages wars and battles at times? God is neither a pushover nor pacifist. ------------------ |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
I might as well show and cite one of my examples since I requested it of you.. This is off of the song "You Rock my Socks Off" in the album "By God" by "Disciple"
quote: Now can you honestly tell me that those words are bad just because they may be sung and played at some points at a fast tempo? ------------------ |
kenman Member Posts: 518 From: Janesville WI Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: Are you a musician? wow, many musicians (including myself) will jokingly say I can't play or can't play well, because you can just get overcome with people hoarding over you. I could sit here and say that rap isn't music because there is no music theorey behind it and there are very few rappers who know how to form a diminished 7th chord with a flat 5th, . . . But in the same tone, Let's take a very accomplished guitarist with no musical degree - Joe Satriani, I challenge you to find any guitarist, or anyone who can play any instrument who can play the riffs the same way that he does. I have heard musicians with Masters degrees try to play his music and they just don't have it. Music comes from the soul, whether it is a chanting religious drone or Heavy Metal with unleashing riffs. Could you please give me a download link to some of the music that you have created. I would be more than happy to give you some of mine. By the way, I agree with your comment about people who don't give to the church, that was extremely well put! Tithers ROCK! |
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“For changing people's manners and altering their customs, there is nothing better than music" (Shu Ching, 6th. Century BC). This is what is happening in today’s society. “Rock and roll appeared approximately 40 years ago. Over this period, the development of this music headed more and more toward sexual lust.” I would also add more hedonistic in other forms as well from the way people act in many forms. Remember if the foundation is not good the rest is not good. Even Christ mentions this and people ignore this part religiously. No one is perfect and people can listen to it once in a while just like having cancer causing French fries at McDonalds once in a while but not all the time. :P Matt====== As for the quote about rock and driving was to get your attention to read the link of other studies they show from other news. Just because a place guides you to other research pages and news doesn’t mean that you have to disprove the site that directs you. You obviously did not read the link and you seem to want to argue. You also reply to fast which is shows you didn’t bother to read the links. You are too lazy to even look at the long list of info it seems, and sloth is one of the 7 deadly sins. http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/14281_music.html Over 80% of people in the US are considered Christian so let’s not say BS. The priest I quoted was not on that link but was from something else. I agree that many rock groups do well by sex appeal, even Elvis uses his sex appeal to sell by simulating sex in his mannerisms on stage, other bands like EMF which I can not tell you what is stands for is sexual terms, the singer prince in the song little red corvette was not talking about a car, etc. Musicians agree that that majority use sex violence or profanity to sell which get the top selling albums which many Christians get, which is unchristian of them lol. Everyone makes mistakes but when people try to defend and embrace their mistakes as good is where people do the most damage. Not all chanting is good and you have to see who made it and who perfected it which I have stated. Just like how all sounds are not good so let’s not generalize. No matter how nice the devil plays doesn’t mean that the devils tunes are the way to steer you to heaven. Lets not embrace oxymoronic music to have death metal as a Christian group or have groups called have satanic Christians. As one saying goes if you mix $hit with Ice-cream you only ruin the ice-cream. Spreading the world of god in the wrong way is worse and the bible talks about this many times. The means justify the ends and not the other way around to be the ends justify the means. The twisted version has been used by Protestants for the time it was made to spread which is why many are stuck with this view that the ends justify the means. The person that encourages it was the Machiavelli (the Devil as some call him) as he stated in his book the Prince influenced after a ruthless general that slaughtered entire communities which Da Vinci worked with for a short time and left after being disgusted with him. "Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" As for your other comment God doesn’t start wars people do. If Christian music is not inspired by “experts” “5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; “3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? Let him pray. Is any merry? Let him sing psalms.
“after the Council of Laodicea, whose fifteenth Canon permitted only the canonical psaltai, "chanters," to sing at the services. The word choros came to refer to the special priestly function in the liturgy - just as, architecturally speaking, the choir became a reserved area near the sanctuary” There is a different between singing about God and actually praising God. Plenty of other sites that was one example. ------------------ |
spade89 Member Posts: 561 From: houston,tx Registered: 11-28-2006 |
warsong,i agree with you that if the foundation is not good then it's not good,but the foundation of music was good,unless you are saying that all the people in history of humankind who lisned to and sung music are evil. when rock and roll started it's intentions were good, it's intentions were to break-out of ,and rebel against the back-ward minded society of that era,who denied women and african-americans their basic human rights (voting , equality ,etc..).and waged unjustified wars(like vietnam),but the so called christians of the time treated those revolutionists as sinners and out-casted them by calling them evil and devil-worshippers,so the more they were treated like evil doers the more they acted like one,so the evil-like society you see emerging today is an indirect result of another evil society decades ago. the roots of rock,soul,pop,and even rap were good not evil. and about those research findings you pointed out: 1)the topic wasn't about whether music is dangerous or not the topic was about whether music is bad(as in evil,a sin). 2)for every research you point out there is another research that shows the exact opposite. 3)since when are you listening to scientists(the same people whose research found that there was no god and the 2000 year old religion of christianity is bogus).if you are going to point out evidence why don't you point it out from the bible? remember the time david brought the arc to the temple ,the bible says he was singing and dancing. after all music is like talking but with much stronger power to describe emotions and feelings,so what matters is the message contained inside the music ,and unless all musicians in the past 40 years had been possesed by the devil there is no way that all music is bad.and if you label music as evil why don't you label talking as evil,after all the usage of curse-words has also increased in the past 40 years,so are all people who talk evil too?or are all people who talk evil considered evil? i would really like to you answer to these questions warsong. ^__^ ---------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote: Of course somethings with those tags could actually be harmful. I would venture to say most things are actually "neutral" provided they "pass" some of the qualifiers down below. 1. quote: and quote: 2. quote: There are health (health, physical, mental, one could even say "spiritual" to a certain extent) benefits to avoid certain things - some foods, some musics, etc. I wouldn't go as far as to say D&D is okay, I still am struggling with where the line (if it exists) on what the Bible speaks of sorcery and magic compared to what *some* of D&D types convey. Mixed in with those questions are issues surrounding lies, fiction, and works of literature, acting, etc, as well as where the line is that if it is okay in one aspect...where along the lines of our various mediums of entertainment short of really attempting and doing something does something that's "okay" become "not okay". Short of getting all legalistic as warsong's peers in the Orthodoxy and similar denominations are wont to do, and doing what I can to stop where something is an obvious sin (yea I still fail), I'm left with following the guidelines in Galations (and Romans) but relaxing in the freedom of Romans and some might say Acts (Peter's vision of food). After the music "passes" the Galations test (so to speak) I would think it's more a matter of personal taste and how it affects you and how it affects those around you....and how you affect those around you after having listened to such music. David danced naked or nearly so after recovering the Ark or Alter. Jewish music gets pretty swinging, and I find it hard to believe some of it didn't get pretty jumping back in the day. (ah upon review spade already brought this point up ) Talking about music is like talking about wine.
anywho... At the end of the day, there's only one thing that matters....have you accepted Christ's work on the cross? |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: Get my attention with a horrible and ridiculous argument? Not buying it lol. Maybe you should be a little more honest with yourself and research that which you quote a little better.
quote: Well of course not, in the middle of my day of programming and code reviewing I'm not about to stop and read well over 50-100 links. Especially when one of your main arguments is so weak. I researched two of your main arguments that proved absolutely nothing. One even admited it may not be accurate and the other successfully proved that rock bands that intended social harm were succeeding... not very insightful. Why would I read the rest after that. Matthew 7:18-20 quote: You were bearing bad fruit, why would I look at the rest.
quote: I read two of the main arguments you posed. I seemed to put a lot more thought and analysis into it than you did so who is being lazy? Maybe you should look at the "plank" in your own eye, since you will be judged how you judge me. Matthew 7:1-3 quote:
quote: You don't get my points... I beleive the foundation, the content, is very good... and the music is great too, some very talented rock players. I'm not so narrow minded to think that just because music has a fast tempo it is bad. If rock music can touch me and send such a wonderful message that I get conviction from God then I have to question your motives and assumptions and not Gods conviction.
quote: I'm slightly curious as to why? Since I don't take your assumptions and analyze things. Since I've found Preists and Bishops to be the most un humble and non-meek people I've experienced (though I do respect some). Jesus was a very non-traditional man. He held sermons at all sorts of places, he cast down the religious aristocracy and their lack of belief with their narrow minded traditions and stereotypes. Maybe you should re-read some of his lessons and open your mind a bit more than you are.
quote: Your tone is what sad, very un-Christ like. Making pot shots at me. I wasn't attacking, you used it as evidence towards proof which gives me every right to evaluate it. If I wouldn't evaluate it and take what they say on nothing then I would be an idiot. God gave us a head for a reason, Jesus taught us to use it, we should.
quote: Considered and are truly Christian are two completely different things... plus what was that comment directed at?
quote: Priests were also cast down by Jesus in his time. I don't classify them generally, you did... you said "a priest" and the conotation I have when someone just says "a priest" and not a specific person is that either they don't know the person or they are trying to add weight to the statement just because "a priest" said it. Many priests I dislike and find to be the least Christ like of people. Many I respect however. My father was a pastor for many years, I respect him.
quote: And just because you think I don't understand doesn't mean I don't understand.
quote: Well for one "church" in greek means a group or gathering of people. So I do respect the group or gethering of people, but not the "Church" which is the organized corporation many churches, priests, bishops, and pastors have become.
quote: Maybe you need to re-read Matthew 7:1-3 again. Look at the plank in your eye. You are arguing for your own pride now. I have proven that one of your arguments (possibly two) are weak and you then succumb to making personal insults and accusations at me. I am not defending my lusts. Many rock groups worship God with their music, who are you to say they don't, who are you to challenge the worship of others just becuase it's different. Remember the priests of Jesus' time had him crucified because the taught different lessons. If anything Jesus was a rebel of his time. He shows us that not everything different is bad.
quote: Lol... ok your posts are a bit amusing. You really should read the Bible sometime, read some of Jesus' teachings. Maybe drop your idol the Church or Priests. Jesus and the Lord God (the triune) is the only one we should worship, no other man knows our own personal conviction between God and us besides him, such is the teachings of Jesus. You really should learn to think for yourself and establish your faith upon your own belief and not the blief of others. Again I am not attacking them... though you are in fact attacking me. I was evaluating them, this is how you establish a "belief". It is not a belief until you evaluate whether or not it is untrue, otherwise it is simply an acceptance. A faith built upon the words of others and not your own thoughts, experiences, and evaluation. Such is weak faith indeed.
quote:
quote: Exactly, which would imply that not all Rock is bad... otherwise by proving some Rock is bad means all Rock is bad then proving some chanting is bad then all chanting is bad. Don't use double standards.
quote: Who is talking about death metal. Well of course death metal is not good lol... "death" metal. Black metal is the same. They don't mean to be good and I never defended them. That is like me comparing the bad chanting of pagans to the good chanting of worshiping to the Lord. I used a very christ oriented message Heavy metal band... Heavy simply implies a heavier sound, the lyrics are very worshipful.
quote: God definately fought in wars for and with humans (in the form of aide, commandment, and sending his angels). Maybe you missed the entire Old Testament somehow.
quote: I agree... you really should listen to some Rock, some Rock has the most beautfiul melody to it. ------------------ |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
EDIT: Am I crazy or did some posts just dissapear ?
quote:
You ignored that, you still haven't given me a good reason why I should listen to those articles and haven't responded to the challenges and weaknesses they possess. You started t he chain of ignoring, I simply am not putting any more effort into your arguments when you ignore mine. I guess I can't ignore a single thing but you can ignore all of mine?
quote:
On the other hand because some Rock is bad, all Rock is bad? You really need to not use double standards like that.
quote: I see now. You are not so much an advocate of Christianity as Catholicism. I hope and pray some day you research the roots of many of the empty Catholic traditions and narrow minded views. I really do. I wish you the best and suggest you study the scripture and not what Priest tells you what the sripture says. God seeks to have a personal relationship with you, not one through a Priest, Jesus never said that, thats what the Catholic Church wants you to beleive so they can have control. I the end I can no longer respond to you Warsong. You say I don't take your arguments yet you ignore all of mine. I started out respectfully responding to yours yet you didn't give me the same respect. I will not respond to another argument of yours until you at least respond to the first couple arguments of mine. Again I wish you the best and hope you pray to the Lord and learn a little of the love and acceptance Jesus had and study His teachings independant of the Catholic Church. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Matt Langley (edited December 13, 2006).] |
Posts: From: Registered: |
Yes my reply got erased and it seems you are the only one that read it. Well I am not going to write that again lol. O well first come first served. Well you can read those things if you care to see another side. To know an argument you have to know the other sides better than your own in a way. lol Which is why I know everyone’s points but they don’t know the other side and I am just showing the other side which many never thought or knew about. I didn’t ignore any of your things and tried to reply to all questions to what I assume you as asking. I gave you a link from a news site that is published in the medical journals after extensive research as the direct news link says. Why you should consider those articles is that they have done extensive research and didn’t ask for people opinions. Wouldn’t you take a doctors opinion than a butcher when it comes to health more likely? Would you listen to a mathematician about math than a artists on how to do calculus? Would you listen to a priest that went to 7 years of theology school than to someone that states their opinion that is more likely influenced by secular views? You have to weigh their views a little more than the average Joe, since I will defiantly not go to a butcher to cut my hair but to a barber. Christian chanting is good since the origins are good. Other chanting are influenced by local customs which they put their own things into it which breaks perfection in a way. I do not support Catholicism which that was flawed which the protestant churches foundation was from a flawed or excommunicated version of the church for heresy, instead of the protestant church to going back to the original they wanted their own rulers as well which you have tyrants like King Henry the 8th of England that killed many Christians and wanted to be ruler of the church as well. I feel kind of insulted to be called a Catholic lol. Check out the other post “Bible as word of God” which I commented a little more about some things. ------------------ |
Mene-Mene Member Posts: 1398 From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA Registered: 10-23-2006 |
BTW aren't you Orthodox? (Warsong I mean) ------------------ |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: I don't blame you ... same thing happened to me on another thread =/
quote: I am glad you are not Catholic and aplogize for calling you such since you are not. Though I agree with Orthodox in many ways more than I do Catholic views, Orthodox and Catholic both share things that I do not agree with. Then again you don't care what I agree with
quote: But you did... you never responded to my very real reasons to disgregard some of your original sources. So this causes me to not want to spend much time in responding to any others. I mean if you will simply pass them over and not give a real response why would I? You used the driving fast as an example... I found serious reasons to disregard that, you simply said you were trying to get "my attention" with that. Now I don't know about you but that sounds like a weak argument to me. One moment you use it as fact and the next you say it was just to get my attention. ------------------ |
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To make it simple take for instance food. Junk food is not evil but can be or lead to it sometimes and it’s not healthy for you to live off of it. Junk music is not evil but can be or lead to it sometimes and it’s not healthy for you to live off of it. God doesn’t want us to gamble for a reason, so not gambling money is less of a sin than gambling your ears, eyes, and the rest of your senses to things that do not give you true quality that benefits you in the end. Good art, architecture, etc like the Mona Lisa for example uses the Golden rectangle (golden ratio) “[A universal law] in which is contained the ground-principle of all formative striving for beauty and completeness in the realms of both nature and art, and which permeates, as a paramount spiritual ideal, all structures, forms and proportions, whether cosmic or individual, organic or inorganic, acoustic or optical; which finds its fullest realization, however, in the human form.” Since my post got erased I hope this compensates and explains to people once and for all what is good and what is bad in fine art. Mene Matt I don’t know what your real reasons are as I said since I didn’t understand it or I did explain and it was not clear enough. That driving even said it “may” cause, which didn’t say it “does” cause, which needs further research but that was a quick thing that stuck out of a long list of other things. I quickly posted and chose what was logical which faster music does make the heart race faster which makes people want to react faster and so on so in my opinion it most likely causes car accidents it we break it down. But I gave other examples which you ignores how now other music has more benefit which you turn a blind eye to and you couldn’t defend, so lets not nit pick so take it as a whole. Good luck ------------------ |
Mene-Mene Member Posts: 1398 From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA Registered: 10-23-2006 |
Warsong: I don't know what you mean. I'll just say this, according to my experiences, Rap has been very motivational, and helpful. (I mean Christian, I've never heard secular) Rock in general has been fine. Personally I don't agree with listening to Hard Metal, (It hurts my head hearing people scream like that) I understand your point Warsong about the beginning of Rap/Rock, and I agree and partially just don't care. I don't have a problem with listening to Beetles/Oldies/Modern music occasionally, as long as you're sure that you agree with the lyrics. (I don't have a problem with a song about someone knocking on the door) I'd stay away from Hard Metal. But this is Personal Preference. I'd encourage listening to any Christian song as long as you agree with it. (Jesus Freak,The Quest, The Slam, ext.) Edit: On an additional note, I don't doubt listening to Hard Rock/Rap could be hazardus to your health, I haven't had a problem though. (Except perhaps a few upset sisters at my overabounding energy) ------------------ [This message has been edited by Mene-Mene (edited December 14, 2006).] |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
Well, I checked out those links, Warsong. That all makes a lot of sense. I agree with you. |
MastaLlama Member Posts: 671 From: Houston, TX USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
I just bought a cool book! It's called Sound Of The Beast - The Complete Headbanging History Of Heavy Metal. It's a good read, but most of you probably wouldn't approve. ------------------ |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
Hey, that sounds like a great book! |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: And just becuase you don't agree (with me) it doesn't mean you are right, it just means you don't agree.
quote: Just because you think I don't understand doesn't mean I don't and just because you think something is right it doesn't make you right and me wrong (if either of us are in fact right).
quote: Aparently you fail at your own test in many ways, you have expressed a very limited view in "Rock"... a very outside and protected view. You definately have not even come close to proving to know anything substantial about Rock in my eyes. Just like I haven't in the inverse to you.
quote: Then why do you stick to presumptions. Many of your first arguments were such, I have challenged them and posed arguments that you instead ignored and continue with different. If you aren't willing to challenge your own arguments then it is simply a presumption. Why would I study your further sources when you ignore my challenges to your initial.
quote: Beleive me, you don't want me to take it as a whole. If I did, then your blind support in a study that even claims it could mean nothing would taint the rest of the research. You finally gave some comments in response, took long enough, but as I said I wouldn't give more of a counter-argument until you finally responded. Your response is extremely weak, lacking in research, or any true origin other than your own mind, but it is at least a response. Was that so hard?
quote: Well I definatley am not taking your opinion as fact lol. The same argument based on your own conclusions could cause people to sharpen their senses while driving and possibly be much more prepared to react to a quick situation that could turn into an accident. Inversely along your own statments slow music could slow your responses and relax you to the point of not being able to respond effectively. Just like a person who is tired from lack of sleep is a danger in the drivers seat. ------------------ |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
Lets me ask you a question Warsong... What do you think about the following classical musicians: Bach, Paganini, Wagner, and Beethoven? ------------------ |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
Ok, you gave me the link: http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/14281_music.html Which just talks about another research done. Lol... next time please give me the direct source, not second/third/fourth hand information. Since you finally responded (even with just opinion) I will dig up the source material but pointing to someone who points to something else is not a study or convincing. If you make the argument that has supporting evidence you should at least spend the time to give me a direct link to it. I would appreciate that consideration. Even further it doesn't actually link to it, it simply says: "Results of the studies can be found in the British Medical Journal." ...
After some digging (you'd be surprised how little that article is referenced on the net and often mentioned but not linked).. http://thorax.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/59/8/722?ijkey=fcd6af04b9bf99ea542b83be3d afca29d774935d From the British Medical Journal website. Note the article you listed is titled: "Hard Rock is dangerous for lungs" though the actual article title is: "Music: a new cause of primary spontaneous pneumothorax" Here is some points after evaluating it. I think you might want to study this a bit more than you apparently have.
1. From the article: quote: Important note(s) (my emphasis): while attending a pop concert, standing quietly within a few metres of several large loud speakers. 2. From the article:
quote: Important note(s) (my emphasis): The pain occurred when he was standing quietly in the vicinity of a loud speaker He was an active smoker (20–30 cigarettes per day for 7 years). 3. From the article:
quote: Important note(s) (my emphasis): A 23 year old white male smoker (10 pack years) 4. From the article:
quote: Important note(s) (my emphasis): Two years later he had bought a car in which he installed a 1000 Watt base box in the boot as he liked to listen to loud music in his car.
Firstly, primary blast damage to gas containing organs such as ears or lungs can occur if the mechanical energy of sound is very high, as in blasts or explosions.7 Very loud sounds at close range, as in our patients, could be considered as a miniature variant of "repetitive blasts", causing a lung blast injury (pneumothorax). We conclude that exposure to loud music may be a cause of spontaneous pneumothorax.
This article is obviously not proving anything about Rock music... it simply is proving that loud music, from a loud speaker, listened to nearby is damaging. This has nothing to do with the style of music, the speed of the music, the actual structure of the music. It's the choice of people who are damaging themselves. Just like if you blast chanting and soft music from the same type of speaker near to you, you will probably have a similar effect. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Matt Langley (edited December 14, 2006).] |
kenman Member Posts: 518 From: Janesville WI Registered: 08-31-2006 |
You are so correct ML, a cause of a spontaneous pneumothorax in these instances is more relative to the lack of elastisity in the pleural tissue. Any external force on the tissue at a critical time, wheter from direct or indirect trauma can cause air to escape into the pleural cavity. One should know that in these situtations where the traumatic injuty is smaller, the final outcome of the pnuemothorax is smaller, as compared to a larger kinematic force. Furhtermore, anyone who presents to a clinic with a pneumothorax and is able to give a history, is most likely suffering from a smaller pnuemothorax vs. a life threatening type, such as would require emergent decompression to prevent mediastinal shift and sequale such as decreased cardiac output. Music may have been the contributing force in each of these instances, but further delving into the H&P of each of these subjects would have probably related substantial related medical conditions. |
spade89 Member Posts: 561 From: houston,tx Registered: 11-28-2006 |
warsong,i don't get why you keep changing the topic? ok,i agree that standing next to a loud speaker in the middle of a music concert or listening to a 1000watt speaker for years is dangerous for you health. but what has that got to do with music being a sin? can you please,please,please tell me why you think music is evil or a sin?which part of the bible says that? i totally agree that the majority of music out there today is filled with evil,hatered,lust,innorality and sin,i never disagreed withyou on that matter. my disagreement is you say all music is bad and we should cover our ears and discriminate against people who want to make their voices heard through music,and i say that music is a natural ability given to us by god to worship him using it,to celebrate the many joys of life he gave us,just like david in the bible danced and sung as i pointed out earlier. now,why do you think david was dancing and singing at that time?because he was happy.that is it"To express your emotions."that is the purpose of music some musicians have evil emotions therefore their music is evil,it is inspired and powered by evil,but some musicians are just trying to describe their emmotion through music.these emotions include love,sadness,lonliness,etc... . my point is music is a way of communication .haven't you heard people say"music is a universal language."? my one big question to you,warsong is ,do you think that all people who sing are evil?and what us yiur definition of music? warsong if you can please try to answer at least these last two questions without refering to any medical research,after all if what you speak is the truth the only proof you will need to show us is the bible. ps: this discussion isn't a compettion about who wins or looses the argument,it's about trying to figure out the truth.so try to be as open minded as you can. ------------------ |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
quote: Btw - j/k I think that kind of music is fine. |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
This just serves as a reminder (to me as well) to always study our resources we post, whether it be scientific, medicial, or a biblical study. Know what you are claiming ------------------ |
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Sheesh calm down everyone lol mene Laz Mat Ken Spade Hmmm well that’s good the reply was not as long as I thought it would be lol ------------------ |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote:
You were the one trying to make a point and posted some links to back it up. You claimed the links lead to that information. I have in fact found that the information on those links are actualy quite different than your words in reprsenting to them. You have stated what borders on lies basically... slanderous ones at that. The fruit you are bearing is very bad indeed.
quote: Believe me I definately don't want you to "teach" me lol. I've found you to be very mis-informed, shortsighted, and to even represent your own "sources" incorrectly. I think you need to learn quite a bit yourself.
quote: False... many rock fans don't want to listen to it loud. I know many soft music fans and soft classical music fans that listen to their music louder than many rock fans.
quote: You are covering great gaps with huge bridges of your own opinion and very little fact. Just because a larger percentage of people who listen to Rock also commit more crimes doesn't mean the rock is causing the crimes lol. That's like saying that the majority of crimes in Californa are commited by african and hispanic americans, so being of that ethnicity makes you prone to violence and crime. Thats ridiculous. ------------------ |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
quote: How DARE YOU - ... Sorry. |
Posts: From: Registered: |
mat I agree with the results in a way and explained it more to Ken. But there was a long list of articles. What you say about some classical people listening to the music louder is not the norm but the exception. Rock music is played loud even in concerts and classical is not loud in concert halls. You seem to do that to go with the exception to be the norm and that’s a no no. And pay attention to the articles better when they say may or will. You feel better now? I didn’t say that people that listen to rock commit more crimes. But I can say that people that listen to more chanting do go to church since that’s were it’s played. Lol You can see the other results on the page on which music are beneficial. The article about animals feeling calmed when listening to classical than rock is one, so I guess pet owners better watch out sometimes. Music is a pursuit of perfection and not imperfection. Sure some music seems good like some foods taste good but what is the best chose and not a choice. ------------------ |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: I'd be interested in real results of this about that speculation... considering there are many modern day Pagans that do chanting. I'd even argue that its 'possible' the numbers of these pagans match Christians, especially considering Pagans have been chanting for a lot longer than Christians... ohh yeah that would mean that Pagans are the root of chanting and it's evil like rock... dang I better not go to church now. ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
they chant at your church? my church only praises satan through contemporary music. the devil really like that electric guitar. ------------------ |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
What's the address of your church, Arch? I'd like to come visit sometime... I really didn't think many churches did chanting, Warsong. |
spade89 Member Posts: 561 From: houston,tx Registered: 11-28-2006 |
i think i am leaning to warsong's side more and more,but i still don't think it's right to label people the way you do warsong. the roots of rock(or hip-hop/rap for that matter) isn't bad warsong,the roots are good ,i think you should research about the roots of these music types more, i am not saying that the founders of rock and rap were christians but they were not bad people their intentions were to express their feelings and opinions that was opressed by the people of that time. and also, warsong it's obvious that you don't like this kind of music but i think it's wrong to criticize christian rock bands, they are just trying to deliver the message of christ through a language that's more appealing to the people of this day and age, and i don't see how classical music could be used to deliver the gospel. just because you like or dislike something it doesn't mean everyone has to different people have different tastes,and tolerating these values people have(as long as it doesn't upset the lord) is a big part of christianity. i personally can tell you that for a long time when i wasn't a christian i wanted to be a christian and i wanted to learn the way of christ, but the people that were suppose to guide me and show me the way were intolerate and were filled with unacceptance towards the music culture and beliefs that i had, they wanted me to be like them!! , they didn't want me to know christ but they wanted me to like and dislike as they do, so that pushed me away and away from christianity, if it wasn't for jesus i wouldn't be a christian today. and i know there are lot's of teenagers out there filled with emptiness who just want to know the truth and when they look for guidance their church stands against the music they hear or the kind of cloth they wear or the accent they speak with,so they look for drugs,alchol ,and sex to fill in the gap in their hearts that christ was suppose to feel, so at the end of the day,what's important is spreading the word not the way it's spread ,christianity is not a bondage it's freedom. i really don't think think that the lord minds the way that i worship him with as long as long as i follow the rules he set out for me in the bible,and as long as i worship him and only him. on the other hand warsong,some music could be bad for you ,music has a way of getting into your heart,and changing your beliefs and values,so i think it is right to believe that music can be dangerous but don't forget i said can be not is,music is a tool that can be used they way you want it to ,so whether you listen to it loud or silent is up to the individual listener,and if i listen to christian rock and i am worshipping christ through that music , i don't think i would care how loud the music is. oh and what is the difference between chanting and singing? ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
Buddhists chant. Jews sing. ------------------ |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
I soo prefer Buddhist chanting to Jewish singing. Really. |
Mene-Mene Member Posts: 1398 From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA Registered: 10-23-2006 |
Orthodox seem to chant too. Or rather say a lot of words every sunday. Yes I've gone to a few Orthodox services, both saturday, and sunday. My Uncle's a priest. ------------------ |
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Matt If you are disputing the thing about if the root is bad the rest is bad, then look at the bible since that’s where that saying is form when it talked about seeds and trees. I don’t have the exact part but you can check it out right? If you are saying that chanting is bad so was Christ wrong to use it? If you are saying that pagans are evil then are they worse than atheist’s even though they were religious? Are all pagans influenced by the same place? And which pagans? I think I posted about this in the post about the origins of Christianity if you care to read that long post. Arch Laz spade Yes people mean well and the people that made the rock music meant well, but as one saying goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” Their actions didn’t bring forth good fruit as the bible says and so the tree has to be burned down. Sure the rock people express the things of their time like sexual revolution which they talk about in music and their dances which help bring out other things. Some things to talk about are fine like Jazz music talks about things but is not as extreme as main stream music. They just don’t talk about it in main stream music they influence and have a social and political impact on society. Just like the story of the pipe pier that uses music to charm the kids and take them away from family the same with the modern pipe pipers in the music industry. So are you strong enough to listen to rock? Are most Christians strong? I am sternly against MTV and have always been with all the content they have on TV. They have some very disturbing shows which they try to see how far they can go and if it’s not right in the last decade it might sell the crap again the next. The owner is not a Christian obviously so don’t expect any Christian values, like one MTV sick game show I think the audience has Christian girls their and on top of the rafters their were 2 boys that obviously drank something to make them go to the bathroom easily and the boys pull their pants down and relieved themselves on many of the female audience which was planed to be a comedy. Some of them sued MTV and it got settled out of court. I uses to listen to pop culture a lot but now I rarely do, and every time I do its because I can’t escape it or someone tells me to listen it to a song they like. Metaphorically it’s ok to eat junk food sometimes but not all the times. If you are a strong person then the music will not affect you as much if you listen to it a lot. If you look at it as a whole in how most Christians acted the great majority seem to have been affected in many negative ways. Music can be addicting just like a drug which many people will defend it like their drug of choice. Your senses have to be adjusted to know what is proper, and just like taste when people are use to eating sweets all the time the natural things like fruits are not as sweet, and people that always eat fruits find junk food sweets unbearably too sweet. As Jack Lalane says “if man made it it’s don’t eat it” “if it taste good spit it out” Jack is a extreme example but even Christianity has fasting from all junk foods for some days of the week and days of the year, but that’s another topics so lets not open the can of worms. Classical style music is used in the Russian Orthodox Church which doesn’t sound bad. http://www.seattlepromusica.org/audio/spmrach8.ram Yes Christianity is freedom, but to do whatever you want is also bondage. It’s easy to not stay in the middle and people go to the extremes. You can say Christianity sucks since it doesn’t let you take drugs, fornicate, encourage homosexuality, but those things are not freedom. People are slaves to their passions when they think they want freedom and loose out on true freedom. A lot of Christians do not present the facts well and can turn off many and even I am not an expert like a priest to have 7 years of schooling in theology to try and jam in 2000 years of Christian experience and understanding. So remember too little or too much freedom is fake freedom, and too much freedom may look as good but it’s not. If you have a kid would you let it do what it wants and have 1005 freedom or say no don’t play with fire, no don’t eat soap, no don’t curse, etc. As they saying goes everything to moderation, but the problem is that it is hard to see what moderation is when we are flooded with too many things we blindly desire. Chanting vs singing? Lol I sometimes call it singing but its not. I know a chanter but he can not sing like the pop musicians. Also do you try to look things up for yourself before asking? "Christian hymnody, primarily inspired by the Psalms of David are directed as praise and worship to God. Many refer to Jesus either directly or indirectly" Thomas Aquinas ------- [This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 18, 2006).] |
Mene-Mene Member Posts: 1398 From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA Registered: 10-23-2006 |
Thats kind of an insult to Spade saying that you were bored with this topic from the beginning. But anyway, its best to listen to Christian stuff regardless what it is, to put Jesus thoughts in your head, but perhaps classic is better than rap, I don't know, and I don't care. ------------------ |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
Just because something is called Christian doesn't mean it is. I find most Christian rock music distasteful - but that is merely my opinion. And just because you like it doesn't mean I think you are going to hell or something. |
Mene-Mene Member Posts: 1398 From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA Registered: 10-23-2006 |
Distasteful, maybe, worse than unrighteous, no. It also depends upon the type of rock. ------------------ |
Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
"Distasteful" is a very relative word What I find distastefull another may enjoy deeply and it may speak to them. I've had many people who I expose some real and quality Christian metal to and at first they dislike without even listening to it since they have that bias in their minds. Then after I expose them to a little longer and they actually listen to the melody and harmony (even if it's in a different style than they usually hear) and then that in tune with the words and awesome (and Godly) message they spread... they then love it. Many people tie Dungeons and Dragons to Devil worship. Is that true? Of course not. Just because a good portion of Devil worshipers played Dungeons and Dragons and it became known doesn't imply everyone who plays it is a Devil worshiper. D&D Is no different than Narnia fantasy setting. So if you say D&D is for Devil worship then surely don't praise C.S. Lewis. Multiple things throughout history have gained a "stereotype". Its definately not uncommon. Just like racial stereotypes. Just because the most loud and known Rockers were very much not Christian doesn't mean Rock is attributed to non-Christians. In fact many modern metal bands attribute most influences bach to Classical musicians who did something different than their time was willing to accept at first... such as Bach. So just because the most loud rockers who started were non-Christian you can't tie the whole thing to non-Christians. Jesus was a rebel in his day. The priests of his time had him crucified. If anything Jesus shows us that the minority may be right, the majority may be wrong. In any case we all have a right to value different types of music. Some may find chanting boring, un-inspired, very unoriginal, and outdone. Are they wrong? No of course not, that's all relative and opinion. Though to say that all chanting is Pagan and Devil worship since that's where it came from would be shortighted, naive, and ignorant. The same with Rock. Rock didn't come out of the 40's - 60's... it came out of fast pace classical music. ------------------ |
spade89 Member Posts: 561 From: houston,tx Registered: 11-28-2006 |
warsong, you talk about how rock got worst through time that is because the media paid attention to the bad rockers rather than the good ones,so in a way the media promoted bad music because in reality people like to see bad news rather than good news,and apparently true rock fell down gradually,i am not trying to defend anybody,i am just saying we can be a little bit more open-minded, if you are impling that most music can lead you towards evil and can be addictive i agree with you ,but what i am trying to say is it is the lyrics in the music that counts,and if the lyrics happen to praise the lord there is nothing wrong with that,i am not saying that christianity should adopt pop culture,i am saying that christianity could and should adopt rock music and use it through the word of the lord to change pop culture,warsong apparently you haven't turned a blind eye towards the great declination of christianity that is going on as we speak, but what i am having a hard time to understand is why you don't want to use the one weapon that can stabilize(if not stop) this great disaster? there is a big difference between the music and the culture behind the music. and as for christian rock i for one could tell you that there are some good musicians trying to use this kind of music to worship the lord,and apparently the majority of christians are rejecting this kind of music,just as they did with rock decades ago,as one great pastor put it"What we learn from History is,we don't learn from history.",history is repeating itself warsong the devil is gonna try to use christian rock to seduce and addict christians to evil,and it's gonna work because people like you refuse to be openminded to any music that has electric guitars or doesn't play classicals,there is a war out there between good and evil every second of every day,and christianity is loosing because of the closed-mindness and cultural imperialism of those who are afraid of change,change is inevitable when time changes cultures change too and it's up to us whether our cultures turn to evil or good,and instead of being critical of those who are doing bad things i think we should focus on encouraging the few who are trying to do the right thing . and warsong why do you keep trying to compare classical and rock ,there are probably just as much bad classical as there is rock,we just don't notice it because classicall is dead and rock is alive. and also i don't watch mtv,sitcoms,and all the rest,tv is another example of a war lost between good and evil. Mene-mene,it was obvious from the start that warsong had in the past participated on similar topics,so i wouldn't blame him if he was bored, and yes you are probably right that majority of rap is worse than classical but i don't think it's nice to generalize,i mean you have to be more specific,like 50cent vs. mozart. and,chanting i use to be orthodox(not greek or russian),and we use to do lots of chanting,it was nice,it's really different from music.oh,and don't forget about gospel soul music,now that's a nice way of praising the lord.
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As I said I am bored so I will just quote. lol Rock star David Bowie said, "Rock has always been THE DEVILS MUSIC." (Rolling Stone, Feb. 12, 1976, p. 83) ROCK ON DAVID BOWIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even secular Time magazine, (March 11, 1985 p.60) in an article about Contemporary Christian Music titled the article, "New Lyrics for the DEVIL'S MUSIC". Ray Coleman quotes John Lennon as saying, "I've sold my soul to the DEVIL." (Coleman, Ray, Lennon p.256)
"Only backslidden, carnal Christians, who refuse to yield to the Holy Spirit, could ever think rock music was the will of God." http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/lewis/general.htm
Christian music can help also people slip into more secular music which some former christian rock musicians have abandoned it. Chritian rock is another form to defend secular music. The queen-bee of Christian rock is Amy Grant. Amy's song, "Baby, Baby", was unprecedented in Gospel Music history topping the chart as the number-one spot on Billboard magazine. Is the secular world "turning on" to Jesus? Not hardly. . . People magazine (July 15, 1991 p.71) says of Amy's video Baby, Baby , "There's saintly Amy cuddling some hunky guy, crooning "Baby, Baby" into his ear and looking pretty SLEEK AND SINFUL. . ." After all, Amy confesses, "I'm trying to look SEXY to sell a record . . ." (Rolling Stone, June 6, 1985 p. 10)
What a difference from the disciples (some REAL Christians) in Acts 5:42 says, " And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ." "And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is ABOMINATION in the sight of God. Luke 16:15" "Michael English swept the Gospel Music Association's Dove awards... a few days later, English confessed to an affair" ------------------ |