General Christian Discussions

music good or bad? – spade89

spade89

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Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
i love christian songs,i love to praise the lord,but is it wrong to listen to non-religious music?when i say music i am not refering to music that promots sex,drug and cursing,i am talking about music that is about love or just music that doesn't promote any sinful activities.many christians strongly dissaprove of listening music,and i like to find out why?and that baffles me the most is most of these people who dissaprove of music listening do enjoy lots of earthly pleasures.god has blessed us with lots of earthly pleasures what is wrong with celebrating this pleasures as long as we don't sin?is it because most of the musicians aren't christians?

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kenman

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Posts: 518
From: Janesville WI
Registered: 08-31-2006
Excellent question. A lot of it will depend on where your maturity level is as a chritian. If you are not grounded in your belief, then it will be easier for you to be blown off course. If you are set in your beliefs then you can take it for a grain of salt. In my day and age, there were all out record burning parties where people burned records that they thought were evil.

Well, that was a little extreme, but the point was that when you listen to music, it can and sometimes does get into your soul. Can you remember the last time you just started humming a song. You didn't think about it. It was in you. Well, if something BAD is in you something BAD can come out.

Well, I have rambled (on topic though) I listen to both Praise and Worship, and some NON praise and worship, but I won't listen to any dark evil stuff.

Each person will have to make their choice and EACH person may have a different answer depending on where they are in their walk.

ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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is it wrong to watch non-religious movies?
is it wrong to read non-religious books?
is it wrong to eat non-religious food?
is it wrong to breathe non-religious air?


just because something doesn't have the tag "religious" or "christian" on it doesn't mean it's not beneficial for you.

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Jari

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From: Helsinki, Finland
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Hi,
the thing with secular music is that the artists sing about earthly pleasures and/or there is not god in their songs which makes the message of the song to be about joy/fortune on earth and not in heaven where it really is. Some may even even sing about heaven on earth.
But we are just strangers here on earth, waiting for being home with our Father and the way to there is through Jesus.

In Christ,
Jari.

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1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

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SumGI
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Hence, I listen to non-vocal music

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Press search to look for older topics about this. I Posted about this 2 times, and I give links and facts that say it is bad for you, and says how classical or chanting is good for you to listen to. People are supposed to get better and not indulge. But if you had to say what is bad I would say popular music and it would be better to listen to country than what is hip and popular.

Country music sells more but they present on TV that the pop music sells more and is more popular but is it not. It's all hype to persuade people.

Also the fact that most popular singers use the money for immoral things which Christians encourage every time they buy their things.

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ArchAngel

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quote:
Also the fact that most popular singers use the money for immoral things which Christians encourage every time they buy their things.

so... everytime I download a song off limewire... I'm helping an artist with his or her spiritual walk? awesome.
*boots up limewire*
Offspring, this is for your own good.


anyhow, tho, I'd have to agree with warsong, Classical music (including romantic and baroque) is better for you. It's more complex; if you can follow along with it, it's like an exercise for the brain. especially Bach. that guy is a genius. However, classical music isn't good for the brain because it was made by godly men... because it wasn't always. Somebody telling me that Tchaikovsky was a good christian?

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spade89

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Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
yes,yes i agree music is bad,but all music?i love and fear the lord but many times in the bible-music and dancing are refered to as means of expressing joy,music has a way of getting into your soul but even if the person who made the song wasn't christian or maybe he was evil,but still i am not asking whether i should make musicians my role-models ,i am asking we have a natural sense for music that god gave us,not just to make it but to also enjoy it.as far as the whole pop/hip-hop thing goes i'm not in-to that kind of music.most of the music these days promote sex,drugs,and other stuff too.i like oldes songs,like from the 80's or 70's,you can find some real good music out there that doesn't promote evil,and if the musicians are sinners it's not my place to judge them or discriminate them in anyway that god's job.and do you really think if everyone suddenly stopped buying their records-that they would suddenly return to god?

see,i think it is this kind of labeling that resulted in the evil music culture we mostly see nowadays ,instead of picking the good music out and promoting that, people started labeling all music as evil so all the musicians became[and are becoming] evil.we all seem to be forgetting that music isn't a new thing it's been around since the dawn our creation,and we started labeling it evil just in the last half-century or so,isn't celebrating what god created indirectly celebrating god?.love,happines,memories,family,holidays,emotions---god gave us all this things and we always thank him in our prayers,religious-songs,good-deeds but what about celebrating,sharing and feeling these gifts-from god . music brings out the bad in you because we have been raised to think that music is evil,therefore whenever we listen to music, we are subconscously thinking that we are doing something wrong so if we can get our-selves to listen to music it'd be as if we got ourselves to do evil ,so that's like opening a door to evil. So in other words music is evil because we've been made to believe it is.

i know that lot's of people disagree with me on this point but god gave us a conscious, a sense of right and wrong.and something inside me tells me that if music was the true reason behind this whole hip/hop,pop,and hard-rock phenomena the bible would definetly had said something about it .I Believe that"The power to question is the basis for all human progress." as gandhi said. instead of throwing away this great gift we got from god we should question what the true roots of sin and evil in today's world is.after all you can't find a cure without knowing the true symptoms .

so music is probably the devil's most poweful way of promoting sin, evil and anti-christianity if we keep labeling and discriminating all music and musicians that would indirectly be promoting the devil's cause ,instead of saying all music is bad we should be pointing out the non-evil music and condemning the evil one.why is music a weapon just for the devil why can't we use it to promote christ,god and all the good that he created.people that are drawn into today's music culture are just drawn into it because it's their natural instinct to celebrate all good,and instead of showing these people which music is good we are telling them that all music is bad,hence they choose the music that appeals to them the most-which is the bad kind of song.

i know this whole,thing is just rambling but i am just trying to make a point. i'll be searching for other topics similar to this one if they have some points i haven't yet seen.

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buddboy

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From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
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haha!! 'religious'. seriously, i only care about the content. if it's not 'christian' or 'religious', then so? we don't have to absorb only christian media. like arch pointed out. haha 'non-religious air'. "MUSIC IS BAD!!!!!! ROCK IS OF THE DEVILLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!" warsong, we've all heard that point of view time and again, and not just from you. Seriously I love what a comedian (yes, he was christian) said: Catholics see Mary in everything, Protestants see the devil in everything.

Just look at the content. I listen to plenty of secular music. and christian music. all I'm concerned about is what is in the song(s). not the 'religiousness' of that band.

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that post was really cool ^
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Matt Langley
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From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
Keep in mind many of those Classical greats were not accepted by many "Christians" at the time for their "revolutionary" music that was faster pace and a lot heavier. It's the same thing now. People repeat themselves, we aren't really that creative in our narrow minded discrimination.

I personally listen to a wide variety of music from Christian to Secular... from Metal (just about every type of metal except black metal) to Classical.

Those of you that don't think more modern music can be as soothing and/or complex and/or deep as classic should really do so more research. A lot of modern metal (to think of a Christian metal band that does this well is Tourniquet) mimics and builds off of some of the greatest classical styles (including Bach), just with different instruments.

Usually it comes down to the content for me. For me to enjoy it it definately doesn't need to be "Christian" just implying a message that I may agree with or find some value in a very artistic ways.

The only two types of music I typically cannot stand are:

- Country

Often too depressing subject matter for me, plus no real appeal to the sound.

- Rap

The content of rap usually has no appeal to me, money, sex, and drugs, etc.

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Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

buddboy

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Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
same exact dislikes here. only country i like is Johnny Cash, and that's not quite all country. plus he just rocks anyways.

yeah the rap messages don't here. plus it isn't really music. only rap I like is TOBYMAC and that is christian. Tourniqet baby!!! yeeyah!!!!

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that post was really cool ^
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Christian rock bands can be worse than other bands since they are like wolves if sheep's clothings in a way. It is oxymorinic thing to have a Christian metal band. Well here are some things I said in other posts.

Chanting and classical have the same origins, but some classical like opera or fast classical is not so good for many reasons.

Here is a site that explains a lot about the benefits of chanting and classical and the negative of most other music. http://www.reversespins.com/health.html

"Hard Rock or Heavy Metal music may be hazardous to one's health...University of Medicine in Brussels "

"researcher says drivers who listen to fast music in their cars may have more than twice as many accidents as those listening to slower tracks."

"Countless studies now show that listening to classical music is beneficial to young children...”

"chanting along with classical music reduces stress, anxiety and depression... memory and power of concentration are enhanced during one's life- time"

Another site says
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/rock/
“contemporary music… people are driven to violence, rage and malice… sexual lust…The difference between the music of yesterday and that of today is the leap one makes from swimming in Sports Illustrated to the centerfolds of Hustler"
“cadence that has attracted hundreds of millions of devotees…has become their lifestyle, where perversion, use of narcotics, violence and nihilism (denial of all reality) is encouraged.”

“Its power is contained in its ability to by-pass reason, penetrating straight into the soul, into the subconscious, and to manipulate a person's feelings.” Christ warns of that.


In the same spectrum of music being classical as I stated its origins “Contemporary medical experiments have established the beneficial influence of peaceful classical music in the recovery process of patients.”
“The renowned philosopher Plato (427-347 BC) considered that God had implanted human beings with a propensity to create and integrate sounds not in any haphazard fashion but under the harmonious influence of the spiritual world (Ion 534D, E, Republic). Aristotle (384-322 BC) noted the importance of music in the occupation of educating children. In his "Politics," he wrote that the influence of music is so great, that its various forms and genre can be classified correspondingly to the influence on a person's character. The 6th century musician M. S. Bothius wrote: "Music is part of us, and it either ennobles or degrades our behavior" (De Institutione Musica). A.W. Tozer noted: "If you love and listen to the wrong kind of music, your inner life will wither and die"

You can not improve perfection you can only degrade it.

“5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:”

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
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ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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quote:
"researcher says drivers who listen to fast music in their cars may have more than twice as many accidents as those listening to slower tracks."

haha.
well, duh.
fast music is adrenaline inducing; you'll take more chances in a car, drive a little faster. frankly, it's a whole lot more fun driving to fast music, albiet driving at night with classical is cool, too. heck, driving fast to classical is cool.
anyhow, this doesn't make fast music inherently bad, just like talking a friend isn't inherently bad even though that is the number 1 distraction when driving.

besides, how boring would life be if it was just slow and calm?
People need times to get excited and get that adrenaline rushing, lest they waste away into a boring person.
I don't see how calming music is superior to exciting music. they're just different and appropriate for different times.

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Matt Langley
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Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
@Warsong:

Please cite your resources. Whenever you post argumentative research and studies it is often common curteousy to post where you got them and who did them. It is also key to remember that not all studies represent a generalization as you are saying. That is why they oftens say things like:

quote:
researcher says drivers who listen to fast music in their cars may have more than twice as many accidents as those listening to slower tracks.

Key words being may have. What test sample did they use? What were the rest of the details of the situation, what driving history did the drivers have? Did the driver have a history of short attention spans? Did the driver have aggression and anger issues? To me those are much more valid surrounding details than the music. I have listened to some of the heaviest music (often some of the greatest, most poetic lyrics) while driving and haven't noticed a change in my driving. In fact I have found that slow chanting music while I drive may put me too much at ease. When driving (especially in a big city during rush hour) you need to mantain a medium level of focus, energy, and alertness. Calming one too much can cause problems as well.

I'm assuming you made the assumption that fast music causes more crashes from this article - entitled "Fast music linked to car crashes"

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2032


As you will note he took a sample of 28 students. I repeat 28 students.

Hardly a decisive study. Nothing is proving using 28 students in a test, not involving behavior. For all we know the risk taking he encountered could be forcing heavy and fast music on those that don't normally listen to it. I mean if I had to drive around listening to Rap or Country I would become extremely distracted myself since I really dislike those types of music. In fact he even concedes that a simulator might not represent real behavior on the road. I mean you are much more likely to take risks in a simulation:

quote:
Brodsky concedes that behaviour on a simulator may not translate into the same behaviour on the road.

To me this study is just as accurate as Darwin's theory. It is simple conjecture based on an extremely limited test that proves absolutely nothing.

Hardly convincing evidence. This is why you cite your quotes. Just because "researchers" said something it doesn't make it true. Remember many "researchers" try to convince us God is not real and Darwin's theory (more proven incorrect than correct) is true.


quote:
Christian rock bands can be worse than other bands since they are like wolves if sheep's clothings in a way. It is oxymorinic thing to have a Christian metal band.

I think it's naive to discriminate a certain type of music because of its tempo. You are judging a book by it's cover and based on stereotyped biases.


What you are taking is a tendancy for non-christians and rebels to be drawn to heavy and hard music.

Why? Because for quite a while it hasn't been a fully accepted music. Those that want to rebel seek the thing people publicly accept.

Of course in some nations Christianity is the thing people publicly don't accept so that alone doesn't make it evil, unless you are prepared to deem yourself as evil.

Those narrow minded views of yours are aligned with those that say Dungeons and Dragons is evil, yet they hypocritically support C.S. Lewis and the stories of Narnia. Just because a certain type of game or a certian type of music has been attributed to certain types of groups of people doesn't make the actual device evil. In fact claiming that a type of game or a type of music is evil is the same as saying a Sword is evil, or a Gun is evil. They are simply tools, they can be used for good or evil. The focus should be on the intent and message sent using them and mainly on the person weilding them. If a holy and just person weilds a sword we call him a biblical hero. If an evil and unjust man does then we call him a savage murdering tyrant. Don't mix up the tool with the weilder. Heavy music can be used for bad and good, just as Soft and classical music can be used for bad and good. What good would soft classical music be if it implanted subliminal messages to deny Christ? Then maybe our society would turn against Classical music saying it is the devil's work... even though it simply is a tool.

On a final note, do any of you watch Myth Busters on Discovery? They did an interesting study with plants and how different types of music affected them. Rock music had the most successful impact on making the plant grow faster.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

bennythebear

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From: kentucky,usa
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@warsong

I LOVE YOU! :P

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

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Lazarus

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That sounded strange for some reason...




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Arch- your opinion is noted, did you read the rest of the link?
Benny- hu?
Matt- I did cite my resources. Did you press on the link? The link says more but I am not going to quote over 2 pages worth or quotes. The quotes are for people to make people go to the links. lol Rebels are just another product of the culture and the media as one post I has that was talking about a documentary called "the merchants of cool".
There is more to the argument that what you say. As for plants it doesn't matter about music but about vibration, and we are not plants.


Music moves the soul as philosophers say, but only God should move peoples soul if people want to beer themselves to be better Christians.

Well a priest said something like this
Music was one of the basic forms of education in Ancient Greece and education was not a motive for a career but to refine them selves for organizing thoughts and self expression to priorities his thoughts.
Socrates was not paid for his philosophy but for his sculpting. Today education doesn’t make people better but more dangerous.
Music refines, disciplines, and fine tunes in what is good music to also help the person’s health and soul, and calm the person unlike those musical events that destroy the stadium which shows they are in decadence.
Modern music is inspired by satanic violent tribes while Byzantine (just like classical) music is like the ancient Greek measures and scales of music which also inspired the Greek language, which is a sacred music and language.

Music like art have been distorted in the last 100 years to be worse. You can say you appreciate the virgin marry pained in elephant dung as good but and peoples taste but in the end deep down we know what is right but many are addicted to earthy pleasures.

If people spend more time listening to man than to god then we might not be on the right path, and that includes music.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 12, 2006).]

Lazarus

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...Warsong, are you saying rock music is bad - or all music is bad except some form of classical, or something else?




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Laz
Read both sides of the information, so read the links to get a better idea. But better music benefits people more and God wants people to benefit and not get worse or maintain the same.

Popular music goes against Christianity in many ways and they know it's anti Christian which is why the record industry pushes for it and persuades people to think that its not. I haven't bought music or downloaded any of them.

It is odd that people complain about giving $1 to church a week but will give over $10-100 to silly things that will hurt them with they do not notice every week. Even many musicians say their music is a joke and a hustle and that they cant play. You have singers like Jessica's Simpson that her album failed and when she came out with her TV show the same record was the top selling record. They sell people an image and not real music.

People should learn about music history then maybe they can appreciate what is good. You think any of the musicians have a masters degree in music? I know music majors that say its a joke and the real music is considered underground music since people are not presented with quality music. People are getting fed with junk food music just like everything else they buy that is junk. Junk food may taste good and you won't feel bad but in long run it will hurt you, just like the other forms of junk pop culture makes.

Good music lasts the test of time, which is why classical and chanting are one of the oldest that go thought out all cultures and still are listen to despite all these hyped up songs that keep coming out from a bunch of untalented musicians that know very little about music, and the best audience to sell it to are people that know even less. It's the blind leading the blind.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 12, 2006).]

Lazarus

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Well yeah - anything Jessica Simpson produced would be awful.
Matt Langley
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From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
I did cite my resources.

You did not. You gave me a link to a page that has a link to the page you were talking about.

"researcher says drivers who listen to fast music in their cars may have more than twice as many accidents as those listening to slower tracks."

That article is actually a seperate page but linked to on the page you gave. When you use a study as a point of proof you often point out who did the study, where (not a massive list, but the actual place) you got it, and why we should listen to what they have to say.

I am also very interested in my counter argument to your use of that study. I mean the study used 28 students. Not even close to approaching a provable test base. The guy who did it also said that the results in the simulator may not match on the open road.

I am honestly curious why you would take such a study (that the guy who did it even says it may not be a good comparisson) as proof of something?

quote:
lol Rebels are just another product of the culture and the media as one post I has that was talking about a documentary called "the merchants of cool".

I find that funny considering in certain countries, and even certain places here in the US, being a Christian is being a rebel/ So I guess we are just products of culture?

quote:
Well a priest said something like this

What priest, does he have any degrees, what are his credentials, what are his studies, has he released any official or unofficial papers, if so on what topics. Basically give me a reason why I would listen to anything he said... because just saying "a priest" actually causes me to not want to listen to what he has to say. I have found many priests to be un-inspired and ridiculously attached to traditions, steroetypes, bigotry, and various other types of discrimination more than non-priests.


quote:
Music like art have been distorted in the last 100 years to be worse.

"Worse" is a relative term though. So it's your opinion that it has become worse, though I disagree greatly with that. In fact I would personally argue that music hasn't actually gotten worse or better.


quote:
People should learn about music history then maybe they can appreciate what is good.

Well for one, "good" is a relative term. So please define what your usage of "good" means and what music you deem as good.

Ok I read most of the article you mentioned at this link:

http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/rock/


I find the "Bishop" who authored the article to be extremely shortsighted.


He says:

quote:
Facts reveal that rock music stimulates casual dissoluteness.

Then to suppoprt that he says:

quote:
n "US News and World Report" of March 19, 1990, it is reported that currently there are: 13 rock groups named after male sexual organs, 6 named after female sexual organs, 4 named by variations of the word "sperm," 8 named with words linked with abortion, 1 named after a disease of the womb. There are additionally 10 groups named in honor of various sexual acts while the names of 8 groups include swear words against mothers.

(most of the article goes on with the same general short minded generalizations)

So apparently God generalizes is what he is saying lol. So if I find soft and chanting music that supports bad things then all soft and chanting music must be bad... and it wouldn't be hard to find soft chanting music that teaches bad things, considering there are many tribal and pagan (including modern wicans and old and modern druids) soft and chanting music that is far from what we would deem as teaching "good" things.


Take a second and consider that there could be people using a style of music to convey bad messages as well as people using that same style to convey very good messages? If you want I'll cite some very scriptural Heavy Rock bands that use scripture as a base far more than most contemporary or soft christian music I listen to.


quote:
despite all these hyped up songs that keep coming out from a bunch of untalented musicians that know very little about music, and the best audience to sell it to are people that know even less. It's the blind leading the blind.

In this I agree completely... though there are lots of underground christian rock and heavy rock bands that are amazingly talented and very much christians and spread the word of God. Aparently you would call them bad for spreading the word of God? Do you think God hates a fast tempo, or music that may excite you. The same God that strikes vengeance down and wins and wages wars and battles at times? God is neither a pushover nor pacifist.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
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Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
I might as well show and cite one of my examples since I requested it of you..

This is off of the song "You Rock my Socks Off" in the album "By God" by "Disciple"

quote:

You have proved in every way
Your reality everyday
And there's no way to explain
All the ways that You love me
And I will never forget
I will never regret
The day that we met
And you saved my soul from death
So I exalt You
Lay my life before You
Lift my hands to praise You
Take this time to thank You
Through it all You have never left me
You have been faithful to forgive me
Through it all You have never left me
You never leave me

Now can you honestly tell me that those words are bad just because they may be sung and played at some points at a fast tempo?

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

kenman

Member

Posts: 518
From: Janesville WI
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:

It is odd that people complain about giving $1 to church a week but will give over $10-100 to silly things that will hurt them with they do not notice every week. Even many musicians say their music is a joke and a hustle and that they cant play. You have singers like Jessica's Simpson that her album failed and when she came out with her TV show the same record was the top selling record. They sell people an image and not real music.

People should learn about music history then maybe they can appreciate what is good. You think any of the musicians have a masters degree in music? I know music majors that say its a joke and the real music is considered underground music since people are not presented with quality music. People are getting fed with junk food music just like everything else they buy that is junk. Junk food may taste good and you won't feel bad but in long run it will hurt you, just like the other forms of junk pop culture makes.

Good music lasts the test of time, which is why classical and chanting are one of the oldest that go thought out all cultures and still are listen to despite all these hyped up songs that keep coming out from a bunch of untalented musicians that know very little about music, and the best audience to sell it to are people that know even less. It's the blind leading the blind.


Are you a musician? wow, many musicians (including myself) will jokingly say I can't play or can't play well, because you can just get overcome with people hoarding over you. I could sit here and say that rap isn't music because there is no music theorey behind it and there are very few rappers who know how to form a diminished 7th chord with a flat 5th, . . .

But in the same tone, Let's take a very accomplished guitarist with no musical degree - Joe Satriani, I challenge you to find any guitarist, or anyone who can play any instrument who can play the riffs the same way that he does. I have heard musicians with Masters degrees try to play his music and they just don't have it.

Music comes from the soul, whether it is a chanting religious drone or Heavy Metal with unleashing riffs.

Could you please give me a download link to some of the music that you have created. I would be more than happy to give you some of mine.

By the way, I agree with your comment about people who don't give to the church, that was extremely well put! Tithers ROCK!




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“For changing people's manners and altering their customs, there is nothing better than music" (Shu Ching, 6th. Century BC).
This is what is happening in today’s society.
“Rock and roll appeared approximately 40 years ago. Over this period, the development of this music headed more and more toward sexual lust.” I would also add more hedonistic in other forms as well from the way people act in many forms.

Remember if the foundation is not good the rest is not good. Even Christ mentions this and people ignore this part religiously. No one is perfect and people can listen to it once in a while just like having cancer causing French fries at McDonalds once in a while but not all the time. :P

Matt======
The way you reply and what you say you make it seem like you are an atheist.

As for the quote about rock and driving was to get your attention to read the link of other studies they show from other news. Just because a place guides you to other research pages and news doesn’t mean that you have to disprove the site that directs you. You obviously did not read the link and you seem to want to argue. You also reply to fast which is shows you didn’t bother to read the links. You are too lazy to even look at the long list of info it seems, and sloth is one of the 7 deadly sins.

http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/14281_music.html
Since you want to be treated like a “special” person here is a news link that says that the British Medical journal did extensive tests. If you want go to the library and look for the medical journal. If you don’t care or believe the research then do what you want but to attack history, priests, and a site that tries to gather up the links is sad.

Over 80% of people in the US are considered Christian so let’s not say BS.
As for your comment about a priest, before shrinks came the priests helped people and did their job well and people do not seem to be doing a good job with the shrinks. As you can see people have more problems physically, mental and spiritual. Just because you do not understand doesn’t mean you know better, if you are a Christian then be humble and respect what the church was with for 2000 years. That priest also knew history and you seem not to know it like many others, and they deal with the soul while you try to defend your lusts. The priest was saying the historical facts on music on what it was and how it is considered now from a religious stand point. You are no theologian and obviously attack history so you seem to have something else under your sleeves. Your hedonistic desire is a direct contradiction to in how you reply in my opinion in how you attack priests, news, and research. You can disagree but to attack them as if they are bad doesn’t make you look good.

The priest I quoted was not on that link but was from something else.

I agree that many rock groups do well by sex appeal, even Elvis uses his sex appeal to sell by simulating sex in his mannerisms on stage, other bands like EMF which I can not tell you what is stands for is sexual terms, the singer prince in the song little red corvette was not talking about a car, etc. Musicians agree that that majority use sex violence or profanity to sell which get the top selling albums which many Christians get, which is unchristian of them lol. Everyone makes mistakes but when people try to defend and embrace their mistakes as good is where people do the most damage.

Not all chanting is good and you have to see who made it and who perfected it which I have stated. Just like how all sounds are not good so let’s not generalize. No matter how nice the devil plays doesn’t mean that the devils tunes are the way to steer you to heaven. Lets not embrace oxymoronic music to have death metal as a Christian group or have groups called have satanic Christians. As one saying goes if you mix $hit with Ice-cream you only ruin the ice-cream.

Spreading the world of god in the wrong way is worse and the bible talks about this many times. The means justify the ends and not the other way around to be the ends justify the means. The twisted version has been used by Protestants for the time it was made to spread which is why many are stuck with this view that the ends justify the means. The person that encourages it was the Machiavelli (the Devil as some call him) as he stated in his book the Prince influenced after a ruthless general that slaughtered entire communities which Da Vinci worked with for a short time and left after being disgusted with him. "Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"

As for your other comment God doesn’t start wars people do.
As for your example of music that is neutral which doesn’t help, but as I said if the foundation is not good then so the rest is not as Christ pointed out. But I personally find that music tasteless and have no real impact, but a semi Christian feel to it in my opinion. I can’t imagine the church when it was first made for them to talk like that. Distorting religious music with modern music only dilutes huts the church.

If Christian music is not inspired by “experts”

“5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;”

“3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”

5:13 Is any among you afflicted? Let him pray. Is any merry? Let him sing psalms.


St. Ignatius said ”You must every man of you join in a choir so that bring harmonious and in concord and taking the keynote of God in unison, you may sing with one voice through Jesus Christ to the Father, so that He may hear you and through your good deeds recognize that you are parts of His Son."

“after the Council of Laodicea, whose fifteenth Canon permitted only the canonical psaltai, "chanters," to sing at the services. The word choros came to refer to the special priestly function in the liturgy - just as, architecturally speaking, the choir became a reserved area near the sanctuary”

There is a different between singing about God and actually praising God.
A short clip of real Christian music that moves the soul No way you can compare Christian rock to this, and can anyone honestly say other forms of Christian music can compare? If people disagree then that is scary. Even many protestant music professors agree that Christian music is crap and love the original Christian orthodox music. Hey even Christ talked to the masses by chanting.
http://realserver.goarch.org/ram/en/lord_save_your_people.ram
If you want it more original then I guess this, but Arabic orthodox music is the same tone as well.
http://realserver.goarch.org/ram/gr/soson_kyrie.ram

Plenty of other sites that was one example.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
warsong,i agree with you that if the foundation is not good then it's not good,but the foundation of music was good,unless you are saying that all the people in history of humankind who lisned to and sung music are evil.

when rock and roll started it's intentions were good, it's intentions were to break-out of ,and rebel against the back-ward minded society of that era,who denied women and african-americans their basic human rights (voting , equality ,etc..).and waged unjustified wars(like vietnam),but the so called christians of the time treated those revolutionists as sinners and out-casted them by calling them evil and devil-worshippers,so the more they were treated like evil doers the more they acted like one,so the evil-like society you see emerging today is an indirect result of another evil society decades ago.

the roots of rock,soul,pop,and even rap were good not evil.
warsong,you have to be more open-minded towards the things you label as evil,you say all music is bad, HAVE YOU HEARD ALL MUSIC?,music is a tool ,if you use it for good it's good if you use it for evil then it's evil,so by saying that all music is evil you are saying that all people who sing and listen to music are evil .the greatest enemy we christians have today is probably prejudice,and labeling people like that constitutes as prejudice .

and about those research findings you pointed out:

1)the topic wasn't about whether music is dangerous or not the topic was about whether music is bad(as in evil,a sin).

2)for every research you point out there is another research that shows the exact opposite.

3)since when are you listening to scientists(the same people whose research found that there was no god and the 2000 year old religion of christianity is bogus).if you are going to point out evidence why don't you point it out from the bible?

remember the time david brought the arc to the temple ,the bible says he was singing and dancing.
and the bible has many references of people singing and dancing to express their joy,some people celebrate god and all that's good,and some people celebrate the devil and all that's evil.

after all music is like talking but with much stronger power to describe emotions and feelings,so what matters is the message contained inside the music ,and unless all musicians in the past 40 years had been possesed by the devil there is no way that all music is bad.and if you label music as evil why don't you label talking as evil,after all the usage of curse-words has also increased in the past 40 years,so are all people who talk evil too?or are all people who talk evil considered evil?

i would really like to you answer to these questions warsong.

^__^

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without justice there is no peace.
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the power to question is the basis to all human progress.
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the road to hell is paved with pride.
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without struggle,there is no progress.
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The Truth Shall set you Free

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
is it wrong to watch non-religious movies?
is it wrong to read non-religious books?
is it wrong to eat non-religious food?
is it wrong to breathe non-religious air?


just because something doesn't have the tag "religious" or "christian" on it doesn't mean it's not beneficial for you.


Of course somethings with those tags could actually be harmful. I would venture to say most things are actually "neutral" provided they "pass" some of the qualifiers down below.

1.
Galations 5:

quote:
9The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

and
quote:
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

2.
Romans 14:

quote:
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

There are health (health, physical, mental, one could even say "spiritual" to a certain extent) benefits to avoid certain things - some foods, some musics, etc.

I wouldn't go as far as to say D&D is okay, I still am struggling with where the line (if it exists) on what the Bible speaks of sorcery and magic compared to what *some* of D&D types convey. Mixed in with those questions are issues surrounding lies, fiction, and works of literature, acting, etc, as well as where the line is that if it is okay in one aspect...where along the lines of our various mediums of entertainment short of really attempting and doing something does something that's "okay" become "not okay".

Short of getting all legalistic as warsong's peers in the Orthodoxy and similar denominations are wont to do, and doing what I can to stop where something is an obvious sin (yea I still fail), I'm left with following the guidelines in Galations (and Romans) but relaxing in the freedom of Romans and some might say Acts (Peter's vision of food).

After the music "passes" the Galations test (so to speak) I would think it's more a matter of personal taste and how it affects you and how it affects those around you....and how you affect those around you after having listened to such music.

David danced naked or nearly so after recovering the Ark or Alter. Jewish music gets pretty swinging, and I find it hard to believe some of it didn't get pretty jumping back in the day. (ah upon review spade already brought this point up )

Talking about music is like talking about wine.


p.s. legalistic methods of life suck....primarily because you start focusing on the *thing* and stop focusing on the *who*.

anywho...

At the end of the day, there's only one thing that matters....have you accepted Christ's work on the cross?
Yes? Then the unknown stuff is forgiven - though you might want to still confess what you know you did wrong.
No? Well then let's discuss who you think Christ is and then let's discuss who he said he was.


Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
As for the quote about rock and driving was to get your attention to read the link of other studies they show from other news.

Get my attention with a horrible and ridiculous argument? Not buying it lol. Maybe you should be a little more honest with yourself and research that which you quote a little better.

quote:
You also reply to fast which is shows you didn’t bother to read the links.

Well of course not, in the middle of my day of programming and code reviewing I'm not about to stop and read well over 50-100 links. Especially when one of your main arguments is so weak. I researched two of your main arguments that proved absolutely nothing. One even admited it may not be accurate and the other successfully proved that rock bands that intended social harm were succeeding... not very insightful. Why would I read the rest after that.

Matthew 7:18-20

quote:
Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

You were bearing bad fruit, why would I look at the rest.

quote:
You are too lazy to even look at the long list of info it seems, and sloth is one of the 7 deadly sins.

I read two of the main arguments you posed. I seemed to put a lot more thought and analysis into it than you did so who is being lazy? Maybe you should look at the "plank" in your own eye, since you will be judged how you judge me.

Matthew 7:1-3

quote:
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?


quote:
Remember if the foundation is not good the rest is not good.

You don't get my points... I beleive the foundation, the content, is very good... and the music is great too, some very talented rock players. I'm not so narrow minded to think that just because music has a fast tempo it is bad. If rock music can touch me and send such a wonderful message that I get conviction from God then I have to question your motives and assumptions and not Gods conviction.


quote:
Matt======
The way you reply and what you say you make it seem like you are an atheist.

I'm slightly curious as to why? Since I don't take your assumptions and analyze things. Since I've found Preists and Bishops to be the most un humble and non-meek people I've experienced (though I do respect some). Jesus was a very non-traditional man. He held sermons at all sorts of places, he cast down the religious aristocracy and their lack of belief with their narrow minded traditions and stereotypes. Maybe you should re-read some of his lessons and open your mind a bit more than you are.


quote:
what you want but to attack history, priests, and a site that tries to gather up the links is sad.

Your tone is what sad, very un-Christ like. Making pot shots at me. I wasn't attacking, you used it as evidence towards proof which gives me every right to evaluate it. If I wouldn't evaluate it and take what they say on nothing then I would be an idiot. God gave us a head for a reason, Jesus taught us to use it, we should.


quote:
Over 80% of people in the US are considered Christian so let’s not say BS.

Considered and are truly Christian are two completely different things... plus what was that comment directed at?

quote:
As for your comment about a priest, before shrinks came the priests helped people and did their job well and people do not seem to be doing a good job with the shrinks. As you can see people have more problems physically, mental and spiritual.

Priests were also cast down by Jesus in his time. I don't classify them generally, you did... you said "a priest" and the conotation I have when someone just says "a priest" and not a specific person is that either they don't know the person or they are trying to add weight to the statement just because "a priest" said it. Many priests I dislike and find to be the least Christ like of people. Many I respect however. My father was a pastor for many years, I respect him.

quote:
Just because you do not understand doesn’t mean you know better

And just because you think I don't understand doesn't mean I don't understand.

quote:
if you are a Christian then be humble and respect what the church was with for 2000 years.

Well for one "church" in greek means a group or gathering of people. So I do respect the group or gethering of people, but not the "Church" which is the organized corporation many churches, priests, bishops, and pastors have become.

quote:
That priest also knew history and you seem not to know it like many others, and they deal with the soul while you try to defend your lusts.

Maybe you need to re-read Matthew 7:1-3 again. Look at the plank in your eye. You are arguing for your own pride now. I have proven that one of your arguments (possibly two) are weak and you then succumb to making personal insults and accusations at me.

I am not defending my lusts. Many rock groups worship God with their music, who are you to say they don't, who are you to challenge the worship of others just becuase it's different. Remember the priests of Jesus' time had him crucified because the taught different lessons. If anything Jesus was a rebel of his time. He shows us that not everything different is bad.


quote:
The priest was saying the historical facts on music on what it was and how it is considered now from a religious stand point. You are no theologian and obviously attack history so you seem to have something else under your sleeves. Your hedonistic desire is a direct contradiction to in how you reply in my opinion in how you attack priests, news, and research. You can disagree but to attack them as if they are bad doesn’t make you look good.

Lol... ok your posts are a bit amusing. You really should read the Bible sometime, read some of Jesus' teachings. Maybe drop your idol the Church or Priests. Jesus and the Lord God (the triune) is the only one we should worship, no other man knows our own personal conviction between God and us besides him, such is the teachings of Jesus. You really should learn to think for yourself and establish your faith upon your own belief and not the blief of others.

Again I am not attacking them... though you are in fact attacking me. I was evaluating them, this is how you establish a "belief". It is not a belief until you evaluate whether or not it is untrue, otherwise it is simply an acceptance. A faith built upon the words of others and not your own thoughts, experiences, and evaluation. Such is weak faith indeed.

quote:
I agree that many rock groups do well by sex appeal, even Elvis uses his sex appeal to sell by simulating sex in his mannerisms on stage, other bands like EMF which I can not tell you what is stands for is sexual terms, the singer prince in the song little red corvette was not talking about a car, etc. Musicians agree that that majority use sex violence or profanity to sell which get the top selling albums which many Christians get, which is unchristian of them lol. Everyone makes mistakes but when people try to defend and embrace their mistakes as good is where people do the most damage.


What are you talking about? I never mentioned Elvish or EFM... I talked about Disciple and their lyrics that are obviously worshiping God... are they not?


quote:
Not all chanting is good and you have to see who made it and who perfected it which I have stated.

Exactly, which would imply that not all Rock is bad... otherwise by proving some Rock is bad means all Rock is bad then proving some chanting is bad then all chanting is bad. Don't use double standards.


quote:
Lets not embrace oxymoronic music to have death metal as a Christian group or have groups called have satanic Christians.

Who is talking about death metal. Well of course death metal is not good lol... "death" metal. Black metal is the same. They don't mean to be good and I never defended them. That is like me comparing the bad chanting of pagans to the good chanting of worshiping to the Lord. I used a very christ oriented message Heavy metal band... Heavy simply implies a heavier sound, the lyrics are very worshipful.


quote:
As for your other comment God doesn’t start wars people do.

God definately fought in wars for and with humans (in the form of aide, commandment, and sending his angels). Maybe you missed the entire Old Testament somehow.


quote:
“5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;”

I agree... you really should listen to some Rock, some Rock has the most beautfiul melody to it.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
EDIT: Am I crazy or did some posts just dissapear ?

quote:
I gave you a link to better research that was put in the medical journal and you still disagree and you didn’t even go see the extensive research they did and published in the science journal and all you say it that you disagree and that it was not extensive. You just do not want to believe no mater what so that’s not my problem. Even Christ says you can not follow God and society at the same time since it contradicts, and so I agree with Christ that you contradict.


Ok lets take your example, lets step back. Who ignored who first. I responded to two of your main arguments with very strong support including quotes from the articles you quoted (but apparently didn't research that well).

You ignored that, you still haven't given me a good reason why I should listen to those articles and haven't responded to the challenges and weaknesses they possess.

You started t he chain of ignoring, I simply am not putting any more effort into your arguments when you ignore mine. I guess I can't ignore a single thing but you can ignore all of mine?


quote:
When I meant that not all chanting is good meaning that not all chanting in the world, but only the Christian one is good, so all chanting outside of Christianity is pointless. And yes all rock is bad and Christian rock is a sad excuse of music in my opinion and the opinion of many music professors.


So some chanting is bad, but some chanting is good.

On the other hand because some Rock is bad, all Rock is bad? You really need to not use double standards like that.


quote:
nd I am not talking about protestant priests since they do not have apostolic succession and don’t even know how the early church was and so put their own things mixed in with religion.

I see now. You are not so much an advocate of Christianity as Catholicism. I hope and pray some day you research the roots of many of the empty Catholic traditions and narrow minded views. I really do. I wish you the best and suggest you study the scripture and not what Priest tells you what the sripture says. God seeks to have a personal relationship with you, not one through a Priest, Jesus never said that, thats what the Catholic Church wants you to beleive so they can have control.

I the end I can no longer respond to you Warsong. You say I don't take your arguments yet you ignore all of mine. I started out respectfully responding to yours yet you didn't give me the same respect. I will not respond to another argument of yours until you at least respond to the first couple arguments of mine.

Again I wish you the best and hope you pray to the Lord and learn a little of the love and acceptance Jesus had and study His teachings independant of the Catholic Church.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

[This message has been edited by Matt Langley (edited December 13, 2006).]




Posts:
From:
Registered:
Yes my reply got erased and it seems you are the only one that read it. Well I am not going to write that again lol. O well first come first served.

Well you can read those things if you care to see another side. To know an argument you have to know the other sides better than your own in a way. lol Which is why I know everyone’s points but they don’t know the other side and I am just showing the other side which many never thought or knew about.

I didn’t ignore any of your things and tried to reply to all questions to what I assume you as asking. I gave you a link from a news site that is published in the medical journals after extensive research as the direct news link says. Why you should consider those articles is that they have done extensive research and didn’t ask for people opinions. Wouldn’t you take a doctors opinion than a butcher when it comes to health more likely? Would you listen to a mathematician about math than a artists on how to do calculus? Would you listen to a priest that went to 7 years of theology school than to someone that states their opinion that is more likely influenced by secular views? You have to weigh their views a little more than the average Joe, since I will defiantly not go to a butcher to cut my hair but to a barber.

Christian chanting is good since the origins are good. Other chanting are influenced by local customs which they put their own things into it which breaks perfection in a way.
So the foundation of chanting is good, while the foundation of Rock is not good and the US altered version are also not good in its foundation, and the Christian rock copy from a bad foundation of rock. The reason why they use that is to get people into Christianity and use a lesser of “evil” to persuade people to that type of rock. Name the foundation of rock in the US and see how it is and how the Christian rock is a direct influence by that. If the population liked statistic music they would change it to be Christian san or something to persuade people to come be more Christian, which is a stepping store but still the foundation is bad. If you want a completely different analogy it would be like training wheels for bikes which Christian music is and to progress you have to take off the training wheels. Christians should not be stuck on a stepping stone, but go to the destination. That’s my opinion.

I do not support Catholicism which that was flawed which the protestant churches foundation was from a flawed or excommunicated version of the church for heresy, instead of the protestant church to going back to the original they wanted their own rulers as well which you have tyrants like King Henry the 8th of England that killed many Christians and wanted to be ruler of the church as well.

I feel kind of insulted to be called a Catholic lol.

Check out the other post “Bible as word of God” which I commented a little more about some things.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
BTW aren't you Orthodox? (Warsong I mean)

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
Yes my reply got erased and it seems you are the only one that read it. Well I am not going to write that again lol. O well first come first served.

I don't blame you ... same thing happened to me on another thread =/

quote:
I feel kind of insulted to be called a Catholic lol.

I am glad you are not Catholic and aplogize for calling you such since you are not. Though I agree with Orthodox in many ways more than I do Catholic views, Orthodox and Catholic both share things that I do not agree with. Then again you don't care what I agree with

quote:
I didn’t ignore any of your things and tried to reply to all questions to what I assume you as asking.

But you did... you never responded to my very real reasons to disgregard some of your original sources. So this causes me to not want to spend much time in responding to any others. I mean if you will simply pass them over and not give a real response why would I?

You used the driving fast as an example... I found serious reasons to disregard that, you simply said you were trying to get "my attention" with that. Now I don't know about you but that sounds like a weak argument to me. One moment you use it as fact and the next you say it was just to get my attention.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames




Posts:
From:
Registered:
To make it simple take for instance food.
Junk food is not evil but can be or lead to it sometimes and it’s not healthy for you to live off of it.
Junk music is not evil but can be or lead to it sometimes and it’s not healthy for you to live off of it.
God doesn’t want us to gamble for a reason, so not gambling money is less of a sin than gambling your ears, eyes, and the rest of your senses to things that do not give you true quality that benefits you in the end.

Good art, architecture, etc like the Mona Lisa for example uses the Golden rectangle (golden ratio)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
It is considered to be the perfect formula that makes great art like painting, music, architecture, etc. they also say the language of god is also math which is we use that formula on humans we can see the perfect face which would echo why people are after the image of god. Everything of nature and fine art is calculated to that. The mind is more tuned to Gods formula and when people go off that formula it becomes like of a mess in some ways.
People lack talent now and lack to fine tune in them selves what is proper and become unbalanced and like unbalanced things. Going to the natural state of how God did things would be better it seems.

“[A universal law] in which is contained the ground-principle of all formative striving for beauty and completeness in the realms of both nature and art, and which permeates, as a paramount spiritual ideal, all structures, forms and proportions, whether cosmic or individual, organic or inorganic, acoustic or optical; which finds its fullest realization, however, in the human form.”
Take a look at the link and read up more about it.

Since my post got erased I hope this compensates and explains to people once and for all what is good and what is bad in fine art.

Mene
I thought we went over this before. Lol

Matt
Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean you are right, it just means you don’t agree. lol Just because you don’t know it doesn’t mean it is wrong but that you don’t understand why it doesn’t what it does. As I said before to know the argument you have to know the other side better than your side which many do not know and not even orthodox people know it well. People choose what they choose not because they know enough but that they do not know enough about it. Presumptions can get a person only to a certain distance and can get away with some things luckily sometimes.

I don’t know what your real reasons are as I said since I didn’t understand it or I did explain and it was not clear enough. That driving even said it “may” cause, which didn’t say it “does” cause, which needs further research but that was a quick thing that stuck out of a long list of other things. I quickly posted and chose what was logical which faster music does make the heart race faster which makes people want to react faster and so on so in my opinion it most likely causes car accidents it we break it down. But I gave other examples which you ignores how now other music has more benefit which you turn a blind eye to and you couldn’t defend, so lets not nit pick so take it as a whole.

Good luck

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Warsong: I don't know what you mean.

I'll just say this, according to my experiences, Rap has been very motivational, and helpful. (I mean Christian, I've never heard secular) Rock in general has been fine. Personally I don't agree with listening to Hard Metal, (It hurts my head hearing people scream like that) I understand your point Warsong about the beginning of Rap/Rock, and I agree and partially just don't care. I don't have a problem with listening to Beetles/Oldies/Modern music occasionally, as long as you're sure that you agree with the lyrics. (I don't have a problem with a song about someone knocking on the door) I'd stay away from Hard Metal. But this is Personal Preference. I'd encourage listening to any Christian song as long as you agree with it. (Jesus Freak,The Quest, The Slam, ext.)

Edit: On an additional note, I don't doubt listening to Hard Rock/Rap could be hazardus to your health, I haven't had a problem though. (Except perhaps a few upset sisters at my overabounding energy)

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

[This message has been edited by Mene-Mene (edited December 14, 2006).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Well, I checked out those links, Warsong.

That all makes a lot of sense. I agree with you.

MastaLlama

Member

Posts: 671
From: Houston, TX USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
I just bought a cool book! It's called Sound Of The Beast - The Complete Headbanging History Of Heavy Metal. It's a good read, but most of you probably wouldn't approve.

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"Bell, I have something to show you, but first, you have to close your eyes, it's a surprise." - The Beast

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Hey, that sounds like a great book!
Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean you are right, it just means you don’t agree.

And just becuase you don't agree (with me) it doesn't mean you are right, it just means you don't agree.

quote:
lol Just because you don’t know it doesn’t mean it is wrong but that you don’t understand why it doesn’t what it does.

Just because you think I don't understand doesn't mean I don't and just because you think something is right it doesn't make you right and me wrong (if either of us are in fact right).

quote:
As I said before to know the argument you have to know the other side better than your side which many do not know and not even orthodox people know it well.

Aparently you fail at your own test in many ways, you have expressed a very limited view in "Rock"... a very outside and protected view. You definately have not even come close to proving to know anything substantial about Rock in my eyes. Just like I haven't in the inverse to you.

quote:
Presumptions can get a person only to a certain distance and can get away with some things luckily sometimes.

Then why do you stick to presumptions. Many of your first arguments were such, I have challenged them and posed arguments that you instead ignored and continue with different. If you aren't willing to challenge your own arguments then it is simply a presumption. Why would I study your further sources when you ignore my challenges to your initial.


quote:
But I gave other examples which you ignores how now other music has more benefit which you turn a blind eye to and you couldn’t defend, so lets not nit pick so take it as a whole.

Beleive me, you don't want me to take it as a whole. If I did, then your blind support in a study that even claims it could mean nothing would taint the rest of the research. You finally gave some comments in response, took long enough, but as I said I wouldn't give more of a counter-argument until you finally responded. Your response is extremely weak, lacking in research, or any true origin other than your own mind, but it is at least a response. Was that so hard?


quote:
I quickly posted and chose what was logical which faster music does make the heart race faster which makes people want to react faster and so on so in my opinion it most likely causes car accidents it we break it down.

Well I definatley am not taking your opinion as fact lol. The same argument based on your own conclusions could cause people to sharpen their senses while driving and possibly be much more prepared to react to a quick situation that could turn into an accident. Inversely along your own statments slow music could slow your responses and relax you to the point of not being able to respond effectively. Just like a person who is tired from lack of sleep is a danger in the drivers seat.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
Lets me ask you a question Warsong... What do you think about the following classical musicians: Bach, Paganini, Wagner, and Beethoven?

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
Ok, you gave me the link:

http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/14281_music.html

Which just talks about another research done. Lol... next time please give me the direct source, not second/third/fourth hand information. Since you finally responded (even with just opinion) I will dig up the source material but pointing to someone who points to something else is not a study or convincing. If you make the argument that has supporting evidence you should at least spend the time to give me a direct link to it. I would appreciate that consideration.

Even further it doesn't actually link to it, it simply says:

"Results of the studies can be found in the British Medical Journal."

...


You ask me to take you seriously yet you don't post serious arguments with serious support and accurate links. Makes me wonder if you actually read the source information if you just got it from this site? Do you believe everything medical studies say? It is not uncommon for concepts established in studies to later be disproved or pointed in a different direction.

After some digging (you'd be surprised how little that article is referenced on the net and often mentioned but not linked)..

http://thorax.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/59/8/722?ijkey=fcd6af04b9bf99ea542b83be3d afca29d774935d

From the British Medical Journal website.

Note the article you listed is titled:

"Hard Rock is dangerous for lungs"

though the actual article title is:

"Music: a new cause of primary spontaneous pneumothorax"

Here is some points after evaluating it. I think you might want to study this a bit more than you apparently have.


The cases used

1.

From the article:

quote:
A 23 year old non-smoking man of Tunisian origin was transferred to our clinic for management of a first episode of primary spontaneous pneumothorax. Five days before his admission he had experienced a sudden right sided pleuritic chest pain and dyspnoea while attending a pop concert, standing quietly within a few metres of several large loud speakers.

Important note(s) (my emphasis):

while attending a pop concert, standing quietly within a few metres of several large loud speakers.

2.

From the article:

quote:
A 25 year old man of Moroccan origin was transferred to our clinic for management of a first episode of primary spontaneous pneumothorax. The day before admission he had experienced a sudden pleuritic left sided chest pain while visiting a dance hall. The pain occurred when he was standing quietly in the vicinity of a loud speaker. His past medical history included asthma, retinal loosening, and a perforated tympanum after otitis media. He was an active smoker (20–30 cigarettes per day for 7 years).

Important note(s) (my emphasis):

The pain occurred when he was standing quietly in the vicinity of a loud speaker

He was an active smoker (20–30 cigarettes per day for 7 years).

3.

From the article:

quote:
A 23 year old white male smoker (10 pack years) was first seen with an episode of left sided primary spontaneous pneumothorax in November 1998. Because he mentioned that he had experienced two similar episodes of left sided pleuritic chest pain and dyspnoea in the past (which had resolved spontaneously), the diagnosis of recurrent pneumothorax was made and a thoracoscopic talcage was performed. Follow up was uneventful until February 2002 when he presented with a first episode of right sided spontaneous pneumothorax. A CT scan showed apical ELCs at both lung apices. A general work-up including measurement of {alpha}1-antitrypsin was negative. At the patient’s request a right sided thoracoscopic talcage was performed. In July 2002 a very small right sided recurrence of pneumothorax occurred while on holiday in Spain. No active treatment was proposed since there was only a small rim of air around the lower lobe. While discussing the pathogenesis and precipitating causes of recurrent spontaneous pneumothorax during a follow up visit, we mentioned having seen two patients in whom exposure to loud music was associated with the occurrence of a pneumothorax. At that moment the patient also recalled that both his first left sided pneumothorax and second right sided pneumothorax had occurred while attending a heavy metal rock concert.

Important note(s) (my emphasis):

A 23 year old white male smoker (10 pack years)

4.

From the article:

quote:
A 19 year old white male smoker had suffered a first right sided pneumothorax when driving a 125 cc monocylinder motorbike. A chest radiograph showed a complete pneumothorax which was successfully treated by simple aspiration. Two years later he had bought a car in which he installed a 1000 Watt base box in the boot as he liked to listen to loud music in his car. While doing this he experienced a sudden pain in the right side of his chest followed by breathlessness. He immediately knew that his pneumothorax had recurred and this was subsequently confirmed radiographically. He is convinced that the very loud music in his car triggered this recurrent pneumothorax. He was advised to undergo thoracoscopic pleurodesis but elected to await events.

Important note(s) (my emphasis):

Two years later he had bought a car in which he installed a 1000 Watt base box in the boot as he liked to listen to loud music in his car.


[b]Important Notes from the "Discussion" section of the article (I suggest you read it for full details)

Firstly, primary blast damage to gas containing organs such as ears or lungs can occur if the mechanical energy of sound is very high, as in blasts or explosions.7 Very loud sounds at close range, as in our patients, could be considered as a miniature variant of "repetitive blasts", causing a lung blast injury (pneumothorax).

We conclude that exposure to loud music may be a cause of spontaneous pneumothorax.


Ok so lets summarize... very loud music, from powerful speakers, listened to very closely is damaging to the lungs. Very interesting and not surprising at all. If you remain near a loud and powerful speaker cranked very high of course you are going to be damaged. This is the same type of effect people get near explosions and such.

This article is obviously not proving anything about Rock music... it simply is proving that loud music, from a loud speaker, listened to nearby is damaging.

This has nothing to do with the style of music, the speed of the music, the actual structure of the music. It's the choice of people who are damaging themselves. Just like if you blast chanting and soft music from the same type of speaker near to you, you will probably have a similar effect.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

[This message has been edited by Matt Langley (edited December 14, 2006).]

kenman

Member

Posts: 518
From: Janesville WI
Registered: 08-31-2006
You are so correct ML, a cause of a spontaneous pneumothorax in these instances is more relative to the lack of elastisity in the pleural tissue. Any external force on the tissue at a critical time, wheter from direct or indirect trauma can cause air to escape into the pleural cavity. One should know that in these situtations where the traumatic injuty is smaller, the final outcome of the pnuemothorax is smaller, as compared to a larger kinematic force.

Furhtermore, anyone who presents to a clinic with a pneumothorax and is able to give a history, is most likely suffering from a smaller pnuemothorax vs. a life threatening type, such as would require emergent decompression to prevent mediastinal shift and sequale such as decreased cardiac output.

Music may have been the contributing force in each of these instances, but further delving into the H&P of each of these subjects would have probably related substantial related medical conditions.

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
warsong,i don't get why you keep changing the topic? ok,i agree that standing next to a loud speaker in the middle of a music concert or listening to a 1000watt speaker for years is dangerous for you health. but what has that got to do with music being a sin?

can you please,please,please tell me why you think music is evil or a sin?which part of the bible says that?
and have you heard all music?if not why do say that all music is bad?

i totally agree that the majority of music out there today is filled with evil,hatered,lust,innorality and sin,i never disagreed withyou on that matter. my disagreement is you say all music is bad and we should cover our ears and discriminate against people who want to make their voices heard through music,and i say that music is a natural ability given to us by god to worship him using it,to celebrate the many joys of life he gave us,just like david in the bible danced and sung as i pointed out earlier.

now,why do you think david was dancing and singing at that time?because he was happy.that is it"To express your emotions."that is the purpose of music some musicians have evil emotions therefore their music is evil,it is inspired and powered by evil,but some musicians are just trying to describe their emmotion through music.these emotions include love,sadness,lonliness,etc... . my point is music is a way of communication .haven't you heard people say"music is a universal language."?

my one big question to you,warsong is ,do you think that all people who sing are evil?and what us yiur definition of music?

warsong if you can please try to answer at least these last two questions without refering to any medical research,after all if what you speak is the truth the only proof you will need to show us is the bible.

ps: this discussion isn't a compettion about who wins or looses the argument,it's about trying to figure out the truth.so try to be as open minded as you can.

------------------
The Truth Shall set you Free

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
Well, I checked out those links, Warsong.

That all makes a lot of sense. I agree with you.


Btw - j/k

I think that kind of music is fine.

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
This just serves as a reminder (to me as well) to always study our resources we post, whether it be scientific, medicial, or a biblical study. Know what you are claiming

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames




Posts:
From:
Registered:
Sheesh calm down everyone lol

mene
Even bad music can be helpful at times but not most of the time. Even the devil can be beneficial in an odd way sometimes.

Laz
What you’re your dad say? Your lie or sarcasm is not proper :P

Mat
Yes I agree with ½ your points of do to others and you want others to do to you so I don’t know why you quote what I say anyway. Did you read the link? Did the music you go with go with the golden rectangle? As for cars you gave a good comment but that still ignores the main reason on accidents. Road rage is not a cure. lol Go to the BMJ why should I spoon feed you everything, if you care to look go look I just point you the direction so stop telling me to spoon feed you since that doesn’t help both of us. But at least you did try looking after you complained, so now go look for more info that counter it. lol I read more articles and better ones but I am not here to teach you anything just quickly give you a side. If you want to find the truth you keep looking and not stop.
The rest of your reply is just complains and you want me to reply to you when you act that way? lol

Ken
I agree. But you have to agree about white on rice, or the $hit goes with the stink, and being a “fanatic” of rock you want to do some things that are not healthy like listen to the music loud. Now which person would put classical loud in a car and people going to a classical concert would vandalize things? More likely more violence comes from rock concerts than a classical concert. Can anyone point out where the mash pit is in the classical concert? Was it at the front of back? Lol So in the end people that listen to rock are more likely tu pump up the volume than one that listen to classical. Hint the title “may cause” which people ignore.

Spade
Netcog said a few good points from the bible. But I didn’t say music is evil but can be or can lead to it sometimes as I already said.
People are not evil but can do things that are not healthy. Did that help?

Hmmm well that’s good the reply was not as long as I thought it would be lol

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
Go to the BMJ why should I spoon feed you everything, if you care to look go look I just point you the direction so stop telling me to spoon feed you since that doesn’t help both of us.


Lol you have to be the worst person at making a point... really. Going from forums like Interfaith forums and other discussion forums where people make clear and concise points, back it up with accurate links, and really understand what they are saying, to you is hurting my head.

You were the one trying to make a point and posted some links to back it up. You claimed the links lead to that information. I have in fact found that the information on those links are actualy quite different than your words in reprsenting to them. You have stated what borders on lies basically... slanderous ones at that. The fruit you are bearing is very bad indeed.


quote:
lol I read more articles and better ones but I am not here to teach you anything just quickly give you a side

Believe me I definately don't want you to "teach" me lol. I've found you to be very mis-informed, shortsighted, and to even represent your own "sources" incorrectly. I think you need to learn quite a bit yourself.


If you make an argument you better be able to back it up, plain and simple. Especially when you claim there is "medical" support for it. I have proven your claims wrong (the articles themselves have proven your claims wrong lol) and now you whine about not wanting to "spoon feed" me lol. I don't need to prove your side of the argument lol... are you that lazy that you want to make an argument and have me prove it for you? Ahh well.

quote:
being a “fanatic” of rock you want to do some things that are not healthy like listen to the music loud.

False... many rock fans don't want to listen to it loud. I know many soft music fans and soft classical music fans that listen to their music louder than many rock fans.


quote:
Was it at the front of back? Lol So in the end people that listen to rock are more likely tu pump up the volume than one that listen to classical.

You are covering great gaps with huge bridges of your own opinion and very little fact.

Just because a larger percentage of people who listen to Rock also commit more crimes doesn't mean the rock is causing the crimes lol.

That's like saying that the majority of crimes in Californa are commited by african and hispanic americans, so being of that ethnicity makes you prone to violence and crime. Thats ridiculous.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Laz
What you’re your dad say? Your lie or sarcasm is not proper :P


How DARE YOU - ...

Sorry.




Posts:
From:
Registered:
mat
I agree with the results in a way and explained it more to Ken. But there was a long list of articles.

What you say about some classical people listening to the music louder is not the norm but the exception. Rock music is played loud even in concerts and classical is not loud in concert halls. You seem to do that to go with the exception to be the norm and that’s a no no. And pay attention to the articles better when they say may or will. You feel better now?

I didn’t say that people that listen to rock commit more crimes. But I can say that people that listen to more chanting do go to church since that’s were it’s played. Lol

You can see the other results on the page on which music are beneficial. The article about animals feeling calmed when listening to classical than rock is one, so I guess pet owners better watch out sometimes.

Music is a pursuit of perfection and not imperfection. Sure some music seems good like some foods taste good but what is the best chose and not a choice.
Christ said to look if the tree bears good fruit and can you honestly the rock tree bears mostly good fruit. Obviously Metaphorically!

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
But I can say that people that listen to more chanting do go to church since that’s were it’s played

I'd be interested in real results of this about that speculation... considering there are many modern day Pagans that do chanting. I'd even argue that its 'possible' the numbers of these pagans match Christians, especially considering Pagans have been chanting for a lot longer than Christians... ohh yeah that would mean that Pagans are the root of chanting and it's evil like rock... dang I better not go to church now.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
they chant at your church?
my church only praises satan through contemporary music.
the devil really like that electric guitar.

------------------
Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
What's the address of your church, Arch? I'd like to come visit sometime...

I really didn't think many churches did chanting, Warsong.

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
i think i am leaning to warsong's side more and more,but i still don't think it's right to label people the way you do warsong.

the roots of rock(or hip-hop/rap for that matter) isn't bad warsong,the roots are good ,i think you should research about the roots of these music types more, i am not saying that the founders of rock and rap were christians but they were not bad people their intentions were to express their feelings and opinions that was opressed by the people of that time.

and also, warsong it's obvious that you don't like this kind of music but i think it's wrong to criticize christian rock bands, they are just trying to deliver the message of christ through a language that's more appealing to the people of this day and age, and i don't see how classical music could be used to deliver the gospel.

just because you like or dislike something it doesn't mean everyone has to different people have different tastes,and tolerating these values people have(as long as it doesn't upset the lord) is a big part of christianity.

i personally can tell you that for a long time when i wasn't a christian i wanted to be a christian and i wanted to learn the way of christ, but the people that were suppose to guide me and show me the way were intolerate and were filled with unacceptance towards the music culture and beliefs that i had, they wanted me to be like them!! , they didn't want me to know christ but they wanted me to like and dislike as they do, so that pushed me away and away from christianity, if it wasn't for jesus i wouldn't be a christian today. and i know there are lot's of teenagers out there filled with emptiness who just want to know the truth and when they look for guidance their church stands against the music they hear or the kind of cloth they wear or the accent they speak with,so they look for drugs,alchol ,and sex to fill in the gap in their hearts that christ was suppose to feel, so at the end of the day,what's important is spreading the word not the way it's spread ,christianity is not a bondage it's freedom. i really don't think think that the lord minds the way that i worship him with as long as long as i follow the rules he set out for me in the bible,and as long as i worship him and only him.

on the other hand warsong,some music could be bad for you ,music has a way of getting into your heart,and changing your beliefs and values,so i think it is right to believe that music can be dangerous but don't forget i said can be not is,music is a tool that can be used they way you want it to ,so whether you listen to it loud or silent is up to the individual listener,and if i listen to christian rock and i am worshipping christ through that music , i don't think i would care how loud the music is.

oh and what is the difference between chanting and singing?

------------------
The Truth Shall set you Free

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
Buddhists chant. Jews sing.

------------------
Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
I soo prefer Buddhist chanting to Jewish singing. Really.
Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Orthodox seem to chant too. Or rather say a lot of words every sunday. Yes I've gone to a few Orthodox services, both saturday, and sunday. My Uncle's a priest.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto




Posts:
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Registered:
Matt
If you are disputing the thing about if the root is bad the rest is bad, then look at the bible since that’s where that saying is form when it talked about seeds and trees. I don’t have the exact part but you can check it out right?
If you are saying that chanting is bad so was Christ wrong to use it?
If you are saying that pagans are evil then are they worse than atheist’s even though they were religious?
Are all pagans influenced by the same place?
And which pagans?
I think I posted about this in the post about the origins of Christianity if you care to read that long post.

Arch
If you say so. lol

Laz
Really you didn’t think people chant? What did you think of the audio example?

spade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_music
Look at the social changes that rock has done when it came in the 50’s with all these kids which I think they were Christians like Elvis and the rest that died before their time and help non Christian music music companies get a lot of power, 60’s which have been a fuel for unchristian things from hippies and their free sex, 70’s disco clubs with their drugs and more sex, 80’s materialism, 90’s grunge attitudes, etc. Also other things like having men dress like women like those metal bands, the money they make that use it for drugs, sex, liberal causes, etc. Most of these people are not even Christian and some are only Christian by name. You have the guy from kiss bragging that he has sex with over 1,000 women which many of them are most likely Christian and he is anti Christian, and he has a show that teaches kids about rock at a refined British school that idolize this guy.

Yes people mean well and the people that made the rock music meant well, but as one saying goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” Their actions didn’t bring forth good fruit as the bible says and so the tree has to be burned down.

Sure the rock people express the things of their time like sexual revolution which they talk about in music and their dances which help bring out other things. Some things to talk about are fine like Jazz music talks about things but is not as extreme as main stream music. They just don’t talk about it in main stream music they influence and have a social and political impact on society. Just like the story of the pipe pier that uses music to charm the kids and take them away from family the same with the modern pipe pipers in the music industry. So are you strong enough to listen to rock? Are most Christians strong?

I am sternly against MTV and have always been with all the content they have on TV. They have some very disturbing shows which they try to see how far they can go and if it’s not right in the last decade it might sell the crap again the next. The owner is not a Christian obviously so don’t expect any Christian values, like one MTV sick game show I think the audience has Christian girls their and on top of the rafters their were 2 boys that obviously drank something to make them go to the bathroom easily and the boys pull their pants down and relieved themselves on many of the female audience which was planed to be a comedy. Some of them sued MTV and it got settled out of court.

I uses to listen to pop culture a lot but now I rarely do, and every time I do its because I can’t escape it or someone tells me to listen it to a song they like. Metaphorically it’s ok to eat junk food sometimes but not all the times. If you are a strong person then the music will not affect you as much if you listen to it a lot. If you look at it as a whole in how most Christians acted the great majority seem to have been affected in many negative ways. Music can be addicting just like a drug which many people will defend it like their drug of choice.

Your senses have to be adjusted to know what is proper, and just like taste when people are use to eating sweets all the time the natural things like fruits are not as sweet, and people that always eat fruits find junk food sweets unbearably too sweet. As Jack Lalane says “if man made it it’s don’t eat it” “if it taste good spit it out” Jack is a extreme example but even Christianity has fasting from all junk foods for some days of the week and days of the year, but that’s another topics so lets not open the can of worms.

Classical style music is used in the Russian Orthodox Church which doesn’t sound bad. http://www.seattlepromusica.org/audio/spmrach8.ram
You talk about its ok if it doesn’t upset the load but which music has upset the lord more? Our speculation is one thing the reality is another. To go to heaven we have to love Christ, to love Christ we have to do what he wants us to do properly. I get some people in here saying that it’s ok to bring a dog to church to also pray which is insane. lol

Yes Christianity is freedom, but to do whatever you want is also bondage. It’s easy to not stay in the middle and people go to the extremes. You can say Christianity sucks since it doesn’t let you take drugs, fornicate, encourage homosexuality, but those things are not freedom. People are slaves to their passions when they think they want freedom and loose out on true freedom. A lot of Christians do not present the facts well and can turn off many and even I am not an expert like a priest to have 7 years of schooling in theology to try and jam in 2000 years of Christian experience and understanding. So remember too little or too much freedom is fake freedom, and too much freedom may look as good but it’s not. If you have a kid would you let it do what it wants and have 1005 freedom or say no don’t play with fire, no don’t eat soap, no don’t curse, etc. As they saying goes everything to moderation, but the problem is that it is hard to see what moderation is when we are flooded with too many things we blindly desire.

Chanting vs singing? Lol I sometimes call it singing but its not. I know a chanter but he can not sing like the pop musicians. Also do you try to look things up for yourself before asking?
"a short, simple melody, esp. one characterized by single notes to which an indefinite number of syllables are intoned, used in singing psalms, canticles, etc., in church services."
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chant

"Christian hymnody, primarily inspired by the Psalms of David are directed as praise and worship to God. Many refer to Jesus either directly or indirectly"

Thomas Aquinas
"A hymn is the praise of God with song; a song is the exultation of the mind dwelling on eternal things, bursting forth in the voice."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymns

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I am so bored of this topic... and have been since the first post lol.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 18, 2006).]

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Thats kind of an insult to Spade saying that you were bored with this topic from the beginning. But anyway, its best to listen to Christian stuff regardless what it is, to put Jesus thoughts in your head, but perhaps classic is better than rap, I don't know, and I don't care.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
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Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Just because something is called Christian doesn't mean it is.

I find most Christian rock music distasteful - but that is merely my opinion. And just because you like it doesn't mean I think you are going to hell or something.

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Distasteful, maybe, worse than unrighteous, no. It also depends upon the type of rock.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
"Distasteful" is a very relative word What I find distastefull another may enjoy deeply and it may speak to them. I've had many people who I expose some real and quality Christian metal to and at first they dislike without even listening to it since they have that bias in their minds. Then after I expose them to a little longer and they actually listen to the melody and harmony (even if it's in a different style than they usually hear) and then that in tune with the words and awesome (and Godly) message they spread... they then love it.

Many people tie Dungeons and Dragons to Devil worship. Is that true? Of course not. Just because a good portion of Devil worshipers played Dungeons and Dragons and it became known doesn't imply everyone who plays it is a Devil worshiper. D&D Is no different than Narnia fantasy setting. So if you say D&D is for Devil worship then surely don't praise C.S. Lewis.

Multiple things throughout history have gained a "stereotype". Its definately not uncommon. Just like racial stereotypes. Just because the most loud and known Rockers were very much not Christian doesn't mean Rock is attributed to non-Christians.

In fact many modern metal bands attribute most influences bach to Classical musicians who did something different than their time was willing to accept at first... such as Bach. So just because the most loud rockers who started were non-Christian you can't tie the whole thing to non-Christians.

Jesus was a rebel in his day. The priests of his time had him crucified. If anything Jesus shows us that the minority may be right, the majority may be wrong.

In any case we all have a right to value different types of music. Some may find chanting boring, un-inspired, very unoriginal, and outdone. Are they wrong? No of course not, that's all relative and opinion. Though to say that all chanting is Pagan and Devil worship since that's where it came from would be shortighted, naive, and ignorant. The same with Rock. Rock didn't come out of the 40's - 60's... it came out of fast pace classical music.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
warsong, you talk about how rock got worst through time that is because the media paid attention to the bad rockers rather than the good ones,so in a way the media promoted bad music because in reality people like to see bad news rather than good news,and apparently true rock fell down gradually,i am not trying to defend anybody,i am just saying we can be a little bit more open-minded, if you are impling that most music can lead you towards evil and can be addictive i agree with you ,but what i am trying to say is it is the lyrics in the music that counts,and if the lyrics happen to praise the lord there is nothing wrong with that,i am not saying that christianity should adopt pop culture,i am saying that christianity could and should adopt rock music and use it through the word of the lord to change pop culture,warsong apparently you haven't turned a blind eye towards the great declination of christianity that is going on as we speak, but what i am having a hard time to understand is why you don't want to use the one weapon that can stabilize(if not stop) this great disaster? there is a big difference between the music and the culture behind the music.

and as for christian rock i for one could tell you that there are some good musicians trying to use this kind of music to worship the lord,and apparently the majority of christians are rejecting this kind of music,just as they did with rock decades ago,as one great pastor put it"What we learn from History is,we don't learn from history.",history is repeating itself warsong the devil is gonna try to use christian rock to seduce and addict christians to evil,and it's gonna work because people like you refuse to be openminded to any music that has electric guitars or doesn't play classicals,there is a war out there between good and evil every second of every day,and christianity is loosing because of the closed-mindness and cultural imperialism of those who are afraid of change,change is inevitable when time changes cultures change too and it's up to us whether our cultures turn to evil or good,and instead of being critical of those who are doing bad things i think we should focus on encouraging the few who are trying to do the right thing .

and warsong why do you keep trying to compare classical and rock ,there are probably just as much bad classical as there is rock,we just don't notice it because classicall is dead and rock is alive.

and also i don't watch mtv,sitcoms,and all the rest,tv is another example of a war lost between good and evil.

Mene-mene,it was obvious from the start that warsong had in the past participated on similar topics,so i wouldn't blame him if he was bored, and yes you are probably right that majority of rap is worse than classical but i don't think it's nice to generalize,i mean you have to be more specific,like 50cent vs. mozart.

and,chanting i use to be orthodox(not greek or russian),and we use to do lots of chanting,it was nice,it's really different from music.oh,and don't forget about gospel soul music,now that's a nice way of praising the lord.

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The Truth Shall set you Free




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As I said I am bored so I will just quote. lol

Rock star David Bowie said, "Rock has always been THE DEVILS MUSIC." (Rolling Stone, Feb. 12, 1976, p. 83) ROCK ON DAVID BOWIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even secular Time magazine, (March 11, 1985 p.60) in an article about Contemporary Christian Music titled the article, "New Lyrics for the DEVIL'S MUSIC".

Ray Coleman quotes John Lennon as saying, "I've sold my soul to the DEVIL." (Coleman, Ray, Lennon p.256)


Carman's video, Witch's Invitation , is drenched in satanic symbols. Pentagrams (a five pointed star, found on the cover of the satanic Bible) and the satanic salute (index and pinky finger displayed, also found on the back of the satanic Bible) are flaunted in the video.

"Only backslidden, carnal Christians, who refuse to yield to the Holy Spirit, could ever think rock music was the will of God."

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/lewis/general.htm
“To some degree, we've all been infected by the world's philosophies. But those philosophies should be discarded as we come to a knowledge of truth. Yet, it's difficult to discard them when they are perceived as "Christian" allegory. While there may be insights into life that are profitable to be found in the works of C.S. Lewis, we think it not wise to encourage young or untaught Christians to feed on such a presentation of so-called Christian truth. Some may be readily attracted to Lewis's style and logic, but let us not be blinded and thus miss the plain and simple truth of Scripture. “


http://wayoflife.org/fbns/helpful.htm
You may not have noticed that the word SACRED is no longer used in connection with gospel music. Perhaps this is because the word ‘sacred’ means ‘holy, consecrated, opposed to profane and secular,’ according to Webster’s dictionary. ... Separation from the world in music is just as important as any other area of Bible separation.”

Christian music can help also people slip into more secular music which some former christian rock musicians have abandoned it. Chritian rock is another form to defend secular music.
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/crocke.htm

The queen-bee of Christian rock is Amy Grant. Amy's song, "Baby, Baby", was unprecedented in Gospel Music history topping the chart as the number-one spot on Billboard magazine. Is the secular world "turning on" to Jesus? Not hardly. . . People magazine (July 15, 1991 p.71) says of Amy's video Baby, Baby , "There's saintly Amy cuddling some hunky guy, crooning "Baby, Baby" into his ear and looking pretty SLEEK AND SINFUL. . ." After all, Amy confesses, "I'm trying to look SEXY to sell a record . . ." (Rolling Stone, June 6, 1985 p. 10)
http://www.av1611.org/crock.html


Christianity Today, makes a keen observation, as it emphasizes that, incrediably, some songs by secular performers are more Christian than CCM's! Christianity Today asks the following enlightening question, in reference to secular, Mary Chapin Carpenter's, "I Am a Town" — "If Carpenter can sing, 'I'm a Baptist like my daddy, Jesus knows my name,' why does Grant have to be so discreet about her faith?" Very good quesion. . . Why does CCM have to be so discreet about their faith? Why does a supposedly Christian NOT want to sing about the Lord Jesus Christ?

What a difference from the disciples (some REAL Christians) in Acts 5:42 says, " And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ."

"And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is ABOMINATION in the sight of God. Luke 16:15"
". . . that which is HIGHLY ESTEEMED among men is ABOMINATION in the sight of God". Luke 16:15

"Michael English swept the Gospel Music Association's Dove awards... a few days later, English confessed to an affair"
"Michael is now opening for the secular rock band Foreigner, who has songs like, "Hot Blooded" and "Dirty White Boy""
"Jesus says in Matthew 7:20, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
And many others far worse.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
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