General Christian Discussions

Evangelical and Episcopal a disgrace – warsong




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More info on the links but they donít seem Christian. This is the way of the future for many churches sad to say. As Christ said the church has to be united but this is far from being united. Rack it up to another self interpretation's consequence.

Evangelical leader---
"Disgraced former US evangelical leader Ted Haggard has confessed to his followers that he was guilty of "sexual immorality"

Mr Haggard, 50, who on Thursday stepped down as the head of the 30m-strong National Association of Evangelicals, also admitted that he bought methamphetamine but "never used it".

Mr Haggard, who is also known as "Pastor Ted" and has five children, has close contacts with the White House. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6119226.stm
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Episcopal leader----
http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/11/22006a.asp

"She says she doesn't consider Jesus Christ to be the only way to God. She says she believes God makes some people "gay." And she's soon to be the leader of a mainline Protestant denomination in America.

In his letter to the Colossians, the Apostle Paul writes that "in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Col. 2:9, NIV). But in an interview this week with Associated Press, Bishop Katharine Jefferts-Schori -- who is to be installed on Saturday as the first female presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church USA -- stated that Christians should not say that Jesus is the only way to God. "If we insist we know the one way to God," she said, "we've put God in a very small box.""

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"

Lazarus

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Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Those situations aren't good, but not all churches are like that you know.
And just because one leader is bad doesn't make the rest of his church members bad.

...I think.
Sorry Warsong, better post something else if you want to inflame us. :P

CoolJ

Member

Posts: 354
From: ny
Registered: 07-11-2004
Warsong, as you well know "the deeds of the few do not always represent the deeds of the many"

Do these folk represent you? They are Orthodox Christian. What do you say? Are Orthodox Christians a disgrace?

All quotes from numerous articles online....

In Eritrea.....

Gospel singer Helen Berhane released
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=ENGAFR640142006

quote:
"She spent most of her detention in inhuman and degrading conditions inside a metal shipping container which was used as a prison cell. The authorities reportedly tortured her many times to make her recant her faith. In October 2006, she was admitted to hospital in Asmara as a result of new beatings. She was released in late October but is said to be confined to a wheelchair due to the injuries she sustained to her feet and legs. She refused to abandon her faith despite the threats and ill-treatment."

"Since 2002, only the Orthodox, Catholic and Lutheran Christian churches and Islam have been allowed to operate in Eritrea. Members of some 35 minority Christian evangelical churches face fierce persecution, even though freedom of religion is guaranteed in the Eritrean Constitution. An estimated 2,000 members of minority churches, including about 20 pastors, are currently detained. Detainees are held incommunicado in harsh conditions without charge or trial. They are imprisoned in police stations at first, then in army camps and security prisons in different parts of the country, including the main military training centre at Sawa. Some are held in metal shipping containers and underground prisons. Several detainees have become seriously ill and are rarely provided with adequate medical treatment. They are repeatedly tortured by being beaten and being tied up in painful positions, in an effort to make them cease worshipping and recant their faith."

"Since May 2002, the Eritrean government has banned all independent religious groups not under the umbrella of the Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran or Muslim faiths. All independent Protestant churches have been denied legal registration and outlawed."

"Everyone caught worshipping outside these government-sanctioned institutions Ė even in small handfuls in private homes Ė is arrested, tortured or subjected to severe pressures to deny their religious beliefs."

"There was some societal prejudice against members of the non-sanctioned religious groups including individual cooperation with government authorities to report on and harass those worshipers. There also were reports that some Orthodox Christian priests encouraged harassment of these non-sanctioned religious groups and reported their activities to the Government."



Meanwhile in Greece......

quote:
"Minority religious groups can only function if they first obtain an operating license; licenses are only granted by Greek Orthodox bishops. In Greece, proselytizing is illegal unless it is an attempt to convert a person to Greek Orthodoxy."

"Greece, among European countries, has generally looked unfavorably on missionary activities of denominations others than the majority church and proselytizing is constitutionally prohibited."

"There is an infinite number of laws in favor of the Eastern Orthodox Church, including being exempted from taxation and being government supported; the clergy, for example, the priests are paid by the government as they are considered employees of the state."



Meanwhile in Russia.....

quote:
The Russian Orthodox Church strongly opposes religious freedom, although many Orthodox Christians, especially those living in democratic countries, support religious freedom for all, as does the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Meanwhile in Georgia.....

quote:
In Georgia, the Orthodox Church has a special status, including tax-exemptions not granted to other faiths.

Meanwhile, back in Greece....

quote:
"Ignorance and misinformation about the Jews is another factor contributing to antisemitic opinions. According to professor of pedagogy at the University of Athens Anna Frangoudaki, there is an ďinexplicable... almost complete absence of Jews in Greek schoolbooks... There are no Jews in history, either in Greece or in other countries, and there is no reference whatsoever to the creation or the existence of the State of Israel.Ē The chapter on Nazi Germany and World War II in a 3rd year high school history textbook devotes only a few sentences to the Holocaust of the Jews."

quote:
"Besides the deterioration in anti-Israel rhetoric, the November report attributes other, more deeply rooted factors to anti-Jewish prejudice ingrained in much of the Greek population. One is the traditional attitude of the Greek Orthodox Church, which unlike the Roman Catholic Church, has not yet absolved the Jews for their alleged responsibility for the death of Jesus or removed such references from its liturgy. During Easter Holy Week, for example, the Jews are repeatedly called Theoktoni (God killers) and ďan impious and illegitimate people."


Yeah...pretty disgraceful, do you think?

But I wonder if this really represents the Orthodox Church. I would hope the true beliefs (and yours) are more along the words of this wise Orthodox leader, Ecumenical Patriarch Metrophanes III:

quote:

Orthodox Christianity has a long history of religious tolerance that has evolved towards some degree of religious pluralism. Advocation of justice and peace towards members of other faiths is seen in a 16th century encyclical written by Ecumenical Patriarch Metrophanes III (1520-1580).

This document was written to the Greek Orthodox in Crete (1568) following reports that Jews were being mistreated. The Patriarch states, "Injustice ... regardless to whomever acted upon or performed against, is still injustice. The unjust person is never relieved of the responsibility of these acts under the pretext that the injustice is done against a heterodox and not to a believer. As our Lord Jesus Christ in the Gospels said do not oppress or accuse anyone falsely; do not make any distinction or give room to the believers to injure those of another belief."


[This message has been edited by coolj (edited November 06, 2006).]

NetCog

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Coolj ftw.

No one is without sin.
Next question please.
Yes, you in the back...?




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Laz
Yes not all churches are like that but the head of the church officially states that unchristian things are the way to go. The apple doesnít fall far from the tree Christ says, also that if the foundation is not good the rest is not good and it show. Obviously many of the followers I would hope do not agree but the entire establishment is falling apart.

Also donít be paranoid. Just because others scream fire doesnít make it that you have to panic just by seeing smoke screens.

Mr. Cool
Yes I agree the few donít represent the many and thatís how what the point was. It was about how the Church officially decided to take unchristian views which I explained to Laz just now. Itís like you saying you are pound to be a person that goes to a bar and then it becomes a gay bad and when the entire establishment changes that doesnít mean you have to still be proud of it. You were proud of what it stood for but its views have made it become the way it is. They are very liberal churches which say opposite views of what Christianity was for.

As for your link itís not the Orthodox Churches concern since that country is in a Muslim region which they do what they do. But some orthodox countries do not permit Muslim institutions since they see the affect it has done all over Europe especially France with all the riots. But they are forced to let them in and it bring more Muslims in. Is that bad? As for why Eritean doesnít let others preach, I do not know why but judging by other Christian sects actions I guess they donít find them Christians but hypocrites and donít want hypocrisy in. Muslims countries have been bombed enough by Protestants enough, but thatís just a guess.

As for Greece is considered to be the only ďChristian countryĒ since Christianity is part of the culture and has been ever since the apostles lives their. But I donít see any religious problem with it but thatís a government issue and the government understands that if they give access to one then everyone will want I guess and so more people and the place is already over populated. You saw the Olympics how that way a small country having the biggest event lol. They can do what they want itís their country if people donít like it then they can live in France when they let it all in including Muslims and have riots and get their cars burned. I think but I am not sure that Muslim institutes are not allowed in the capital despite there is an influx of Muslims. If they let it then they will get wiped out since all the Muslims that live next door will move in and overpopulate everyone else like they do in other European countries. Hey they have been around for over 10,000 years and many of the great intellects come from their so I would guess they know what they are doing.

Russia
You have to understand how communism took away their religious freedom from all non orthodox people so I guess they donít want to deal with it, but again itís a government issue not a religious one and not a main thing about the religious beliefs that are changed like the 2 I showed.

As for the rest itís the same thing itís a government issues and not a religious one. As for what they teach it has to be backed up, and if they exclude they are no different from what other countries exclude, I donít see much of European history in the US and many donít know about world maps in the US while in Europe they know more. Itís just a mater of opinions when dealing with this issues and not religious.

As for the comments about Israel the majority of Europe is like this and the majority of people in Europe say that Israel is the #1 threat to world peace but thatís not a religious issue again. As for the sermons the Orthodox Church has been the same in its stance from the apostles and the apostles didnít have a problem with it and they are considered anti-Semites including the bible being anti Semitic. Even the movie the passion is anti Semitic so should we change the worlds in the bible as well, or the anti Semitic comments Christ and the apostles made? As the pope said about the movies it is what it is, so let God judge them all you have to do is watch you step if you care to and not attack anyone. The first Christians were hunted and killed by Jews. They have dealt with the apostles, Jews, Muslims to know whatís going on since if you look where the country is itís in the middle of it all. You can even look back and see that before their were Christian sects the church took that stance as well. You canít judge unless you know what they know. The orthodox church is more united than the rest despite there are different names like Russian, Egyptian, Ethiopian etc and they all are considered equal and they all decide what they should do with issues and have been for 2,000 years and have stayed the same path which they are attacked for not changing their ways to cater to modern day people like other have to allowed women to be priests or to accept gays as being ok. The point is you think they discriminate and they probably do since they donít go with what society feels is offensive to side with gay issues, and the rest. As the bible said you can not follow mans laws and gods laws and you are attacking the church since its not going with mans laws? So no its not disgraceful since they have 100x more experience first hand, while others have it donít even have the same experience and donít have first hand knowledge of them.

Generally your post didnít offer much but the point is that their can only be one church and to have churches contradicting with each other is not Christian. So as for you last quote itís the same as before itís just that you interpret it negatively to see it offensive that realistically.

I hope that clarified everything.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Laz
Yes not all churches are like that but the head of the church officially states that unchristian things are the way to go. The apple doesnít fall far from the tree Christ says, also that if the foundation is not good the rest is not good and it show. Obviously many of the followers I would hope do not agree but the entire establishment is falling apart.

Also donít be paranoid. Just because others scream fire doesnít make it that you have to panic just by seeing smoke screens.


Yeah sorry about that.

I do think it is terrible the number of pastors who are found committing adultery, looking at porn, etc.
The Bible says you need to be qualified to become an "overseer" or "pastor" in a Church, not just going through a seminary but being a good Christian. Maybe they should start following that again.

MastaLlama

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Posts: 671
From: Houston, TX USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Generally your post didnít offer much...

...I hope that clarified everything.


CoolJ

Member

Posts: 354
From: ny
Registered: 07-11-2004
Warsong,

quote:

Generally your post didnít offer much...

ok, let me offer some more...

quote:
"In 2005, a series of scandals alleging the theft of antiquities, trial-fixing, and other illegal and immoral behavior by high-ranking Greek Orthodox clerics shook the powerful Orthodox Church. The scandals renewed discussion in the media of a separation of church and state."

quote:
"The Orthodox Church, Judaism, and Islam are the only groups considered to be "legal persons of public law." Other religions are considered "legal persons of private law." In practice, the primary distinction is that the Civil Code's provisions pertaining to corporations regulate the establishment of "houses of prayer" for religions besides the Orthodox Church, Judaism, or Islam.

In otherwords, Muslims in Greece have MORE rights than Protestant Christians. So this is not even an issue of Orthodox Church vs Muslims.

What I find interesting is how you seem to 'see no evil' when it comes to the Orthodox Church. And yet you are so quick to point out the splinter in the eye of other Christian groups. There is corruption and sin among Orthodox Christians as well. Don't be fooled. To imply some moral superiority to protestant Christians is wrong and I'm afraid might be an Orthodox Christian's greatest catastrophe (if this was a prevalent attitude of an Orthodox Christian).

Take the log out or just accept that we are Christian brothers. What! A PROTESTANT christian (to be precise, I'm non-denominational) is my christian brother! NO WAYYYY! We believe that Jesus died for our sins and without his mercy and salvation and our repentance we are doomed. We all fail without the grace of God and anything less than giving him our attention in all that we do opens us to sin and error.

As far as the evangelical pastor, no Christian I know of would agree that what he has done is right. So we all agree, what is your point?

And with the episcopal church. The unbiblical doctorine that has crept into this church is splitting it apart. Wow, this should sound familiar to you. Wasn't it the Orthodox Church and the Catholic church that split once too? I'll let you scrap it out with a Catholic believer to decide whose view was right on that one. Likewise, the protestant church split out of the Catholic church because of doctorinal issues and practices.

We both know there are two main types of issues that seperate the beliefs of Christian groups around the world:

1. The interpretation of what is explicitly stated in the Bible.

2. Traditional extra-biblical oral and written instruction that adds to or defines what is customary or required for a Christian of a particular group.

Sadly, the only way for a unified church as you decribe is to toss #2 out the window or at least realize that focus on #1 is of much more importance. I really don't see this happening.

Your tradition adds praying to the Saints and using of the Icons.
My tradition adds wacky tv evangalists! LOL!
But we seem to have the same assurance of everlasting life because we know where our salvation is.


quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
As for your link itís not the Orthodox Churches concern since that country is in a Muslim region which they do what they do. But some orthodox countries do not permit Muslim institutions since they see the affect it has done all over Europe especially France with all the riots. But they are forced to let them in and it bring more Muslims in. Is that bad?

Actually I'm referring to countries that are majority Orthodox Christians not allowing protestant churches and ministry.


quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
As for why Eritean doesnít let others preach, I do not know why but judging by other Christian sects actions I guess they donít find them Christians but hypocrites and donít want hypocrisy in. Muslims countries have been bombed enough by Protestants enough, but thatís just a guess.

btw, Eritrea is 50% Christian (strongly Orthodox) and 50% Muslim. And your answer is the arrogance that I was referring to - If protestants were 'better' Christians then they wouldn't be persecuted in these countries and the Orthodox church would welcome them with open arms and fight for their right to open a ministry in the country. Do you really believe this? Or do you just think gospel singers are so evil they must be beaten.

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
As for Greece is considered to be the only ďChristian countryĒ since Christianity is part of the culture and has been ever since the apostles lives their. But I donít see any religious problem with it but thatís a government issue and the government understands that if they give access to one then everyone will want I guess and so more people and the place is already over populated.

Greece is 97% Orthodox Christian. So you you say it's a government problem, not a religous problem. They are basically the same thing. The Greek government is made up of and highly biased toward Orthodox Church (and against protestant churchs as I pointed out earlier.)

If you missed this, let me repeat:

"In Greece, proselytizing is illegal unless it is an attempt to convert a person to Greek Orthodoxy."

All I can say is thank God I live in USA!

Put the shoe on other foot - Could you imagine if you had to get permission from a Baptist minister to start an Orthodox Church? OR telling someone about the Patriarchs could could get you fined or imprisoned? Welcome to freedom of religion the Greece way!

But like I said, I don't think this is how the majority of Orthodox Christians believe, at least I hope not! But you give me some concern.





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First off
As for the topic the women bishop in what she said can not be disputed and you know that. But as for the other guy he says he didnít do those things so "maybe" he didnít and maybe you should look into why he was targeted now right before elections. Just like what I said in the other post connect the dots follow the money, or would you like me to do the work for you?

As for your reply

LAZ
Well the Orthodox Church doesnít consider other sects having churches but Christian communities. They did not get the official ok to be called Christians in the first place since they took it upon themselves to make their own thing. Itís like you making your own American government in china which the US will not recognize and the china will think of the US as bad. But In what you said yes I generally agree.

COOL You asked for it so here is a mroe detailed explination sicne.
GOOD FORM THEM, more power to them. Every country and person considers their own type of freedom and you or I are no exceptions.
I donít know about Muslims having more freedom but there are still protestant churches in orthodox countries which you can look up online for their official sites. If Christ was around he would not let fake Christianís open shop that their actions have shown that they do not do good. Bad enough they show MTV and GTA and other immoral things in other Christian countries. Lol
The protestant churches foundation has been filled with a lot of murdered and anti Christian actions and have abandoned many Christian things. The catholic church has been voted out since it wanted total control which they have the pope that wants to rule all, even though Christ said everyone is equal, and so for the catholic church to go against it and want to dictate then they are excommunicated and the excommunicated has its excommunicated and so on. They are going further away form the original. And as you see for the protestant church to let a women in and say you donít need Christ is against Christianity, and the Orthodox churches rules didnít talk about this. Try talking about the teaching of the church but if you want to talk about orthodoxy there is already a post in this forum that you can read since what you ask has been talked about. Your first point (1) just proves me right that they can not be unified since the others are not Christian in its teaching when they say gay marriage ok and that you donít need Christ, if the Orthodox Church compromised to than they that would be stupid. Your second point (2) is another important thing which many donít loose contact with religious traditions like fasting which was done before the other sects emerged and the catholic sects strip Christianity of everything till all is left is a book that no one can interpret well since they have no examples of tradition to follow in the foot steps of what is right. Check out the Q&A links in the end to understand better.

Sure individuals make mistakes but for the church or top leader to take a stance that in unchristian is a big blow to the church. The Orthodox church was their from the beginning and they have seen many Christian sects come and disappear despite many interpreting the bible their own way or for them to not even use the bible "The Church, as a whole, is infallible, but not God-inspired to the extent that it has understood the entire depth of the truths and formulated and proclaimed them to the world." http://orgs.unt.edu/ocf/about.html

Protestant religion has done enough damage all over the world which is why they are locked them out since they forcefully convert and have taken many countries money, killed many and bribe many which over here its unheard about for many reasons. Even some Protestants agree that they can not open up their mouth or else they will loose converts and they are wise to do that if they want to remain in power but not a Christian way. Sure there are many good religious people but the ideologies of the religion is what hurts the people the most sad to say.

Eritrea may be 50% Christian but not 100% of the 50% if orthodox and they do not have that much power in what the numbers state. But I do not know about that country issues since it will be mostly Muslim anyway. The protestant church gets what does, which is why Muslim countries get along better with Orthodox since orthodox doesnít take sides while the protestant church always attack the Muslims. The protestant church made its bed to sleep on, which many here praise, Israel and condemn automatically Muslims and think that the Muslims are def and dumb that they donít pat attention. The Orthodox countries have to live with both of them and put an effort to get along, while the protestant countries bomb first and ask questions later. No matter how many points you bring their will be 50 times far more dirt on the protestant side and they know it, and the best thing to do is not even mention orthodoxy which that is the best plan they have and it works since many donít know much about it. I am surprised some non orthodox Christian sects have a church in Orthodox countries since they Stole many priceless Artifacts and will not return it to them, talk about good will and then wanting to preach as well? lol :P That is funny and sad.

Itís their responsibility to preserve Christís church since it originated by them, have apostolic succession, they have the original churches, gave the world the Bible as you know it today, the only one that has miracles that canít be explained, etc. Even their bishops can be traced all the way back to the apostles. Everyone else tries to imitate it and claim it as their own when it was not originally. Well itís a good thing the Muslims didnít say they are Christian.

You are kind of going off topic in some ways. The people I stated want to change the essence of Christianity while you have not shown how the Orthodox church is changing it but is has been attacked for not changing it. Even the bishop of NY has been booted for political reasons since it is not catering to what this government wants which that is also not freedom. If you want to talk about Greece more of them are leavening the US and going to Greece if you look at the census for NY, including Italians which they are the top ethnic groups that do well in the US but decide that itís better elsewhere. Many orthodox countries may more Christian holydays, unlike the US where more days are closed for Jewish holidayís even though they are less than 2-5% that are Jewish and less than 10% of them follow it. Christmas holiday is not considered winter break as it is here, and you want others to follow this countries ways and not for countries to govern themselves? Orthodox countries are being attacked by secularists to have a separation of church and state which your comments are close to secularists that attack Christianity since that is what they push for. If they let fake Christian sects do what they want back at the begging of the church then you would not be Christian in a way in the first place or have the bible so what you object to would contradict your faith in God. Since if things were your way 2000 years ago then there would be no Christianity if they let any crazy person make their own Christian sect. Itís like you making your own government and country in the middle of the US.

To let anything go isnít freedom. Even this country restricts things to protect freedom. They donít allow some Christian sects which I think it is the Mormons that allow for a man to marry men women, other political views are not allowed as well. Many European countries donít allow Satanism, but allow more freedoms than the US and they even allow steroids which over here it would be seen as bad. Just because you are use to something and someone else does it different doesnít mean you are right and they are wrong. There other Christian churches their like the Catholic Church which causes problems and as I said before how other countries let Muslims do what they want and they cause riots. If you want to be PC and say they should do it then thatís silly. Should a Christian church accommodate room for Satanists as well to not discriminate? If the Satanist doesnít like it they can go to another building. The same thing with a country if people donít like it there other places, just like if you donít like another church you go someplace else and not force them to let anyone in and not to allow a place to focus on what it believes. Its comments like what you say that influences church to be more liberal since many complain that the church does this bad thing in the eyes of secular antichristian society. Be careful what you wish for or you will get it.

The reason why the Orthodox Church is more alike than anyone else in how the church was 2000 years ago is because it doesnít cater to peoples opinions that they donít have 2000 years of experience to back it up, while so many other churches bend over and let women and gay bishops take over. Itís silly enough that male only monasteries are forced by non orthodox people to make them permit women their, its like telling permitting women in the male locker room and shower area. The Bishop in Israel was booted out because he was in charge of a subordinate which was not a priest but a worker and the worker made a deal with the Jews their to rent or sell the 2 biggest properties in Israel. The church owns the land that the Israel government sits. The guy got booted for that and an investigation on which 2 Jewish guys didnít the deal and the person that sold it since there was some deals that the Israelis did to take the land from the church. But Israel have taken a lot of land and it wonít stop their and they will use the ends to justify the means which is the opposite of what Christianity says to be that the means justify the ends. This kind of antichristian ideology is also done by the protestant church and without it would have not existed but many do not see this which goes against Christ and also it brings more bad things which have hurt Christianity many around the world.

Do you say itís bad that 97% of Greece is Christian Orthodox? Thatís where Christianity flourished and where the apostles lives after Christ since they knew that is the best place to be preserved since Christianity was similar to their beliefs which my other post about the origins of Christianity explains it. Protestants could have went into Greece while they were slaves and Christian orthodoxy was not allowed for close to 500 years which the Catholics, Jewish, and Muslim religion help make them slaves. Everyone finds it a miracle that orthodoxy is still alive after the constant attacks and foreign rulers it mostly had. The same thing with the other Orthodox countries including Russia that has communism that didnít allowed Christian orthodoxy. If that happened to protestant countries they would convert kind of like how many of them have been wiped out or converted to Muslim since their faith was as strong as their religion. Hey look it up for yourself and see. I agree with a Jewish rabbi in what he said that if your faith demands less then your religion is less.

If you have any complaints about the Orthodox Church then you have a complaint against Christ and the apostles since it has not change its stance for what society wants, since God doesn't bend to the laws of man but people should bend to godís laws. If people do not have faith in Christís words then they have no business with Christ. Even Muslim believe in Christ but they are not considered Christians, and maybe the other Christian sects might be put in the same category as them since their foundation and general actions over time in how they got power does not justify their foundation as the right path and have done the opposite of what the church stranded for. Its not non Christians that have hurt the world but people that say they are Christians. Even the crusades were used to rally Christians to attack the Orthodox Church which holds the original churches and the vast majority of religious artifacts. To say that Christ is not the only way to salvation goes against what Christ said. If the Orthodox Church "OFFICIALY" says something that contradicts what Christ said then point it out, I would like to know. If people can not see it logically which I try to point it out, since I know many do not go on that much faith since the division would have not happened in the first place, but if some try to then they do not understand the history of the church well and most are far from it.

Pay attention! Lol I am no advisor or present it well but I generally know what I am talking about, but if you want an official explanation there are some sites that say.
This one is a bit humorous in the Q&A check it out if you want to get a laugh lol But if you have a question ask then to the other site under this one.
http://www.stmichaelgoc.org/aboutstmichaels/abouttheorthodoxchurchandfaith.html

I am not a big fan of this one but itís the Official Orthodox Church of America It has many Q&As http://www.oca.org/QAIndex.asp?SID=3

GOOD LUCK

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
Sorry Warsong, better post something else if you want to inflame us. :P


ugh, but by even replying you are encouraging him to post more and even start more inflammatory threads.
----> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_cannon

Lava
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Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
Faith_Warrior...And I think I speak for Warsong when I say this....

You're being rude!

------------------

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by LAVA:
Faith_Warrior...And I think I speak for Warsong when I say this....

You're being rude!



Oh great, your siding with War now, that's all we need is more anti-semitic babblings. How very sad. He's not even here to discuss any game/development related issues (at all) or even fellowship, just to bash everything in site on his soapbox, to create division (loose cannon for sure). Well this ďChristianĒ (as war puts it in a recent thread) just ignores War threads at this point... but I guess his folly has become distention, perhaps? The more you guys reply, the more he will post. Fine, stick up for him, what ever....
Brandon

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Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
"She says she doesn't consider Jesus Christ to be the only way to God. She says she believes God makes some people "gay." And she's soon to be the leader of a mainline Protestant denomination in America.

Wow! All I have to say is that when I read Warsongs first post about the things that those leaders have said, it really was a painful read. Anyone who claims to be a Christian but denies Jesus in saying that He isn't the only way is either blind or a liar. They are basically calling Jesus a liar. That's horrible...

One of the main problems I believe, is that many who are in the church are trying to be too world like. We are supposed to be in the world but not of it. Instead they are keeping their eyes on the world instead of on Christ, they keep a certain distance from the world, but since their eyes are fixed on the world and not Christ these "Christians" fall further away from God just as the rest of the world does.

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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:

Oh great, your siding with War now, that's all we need is more anti-semitic babblings. How very sad. He's not even here to discuss any game/development related issues (at all) or even fellowship, just to bash everything in site on his soapbox, to create division (loose cannon for sure). Well this ďChristianĒ (as war puts it in a recent thread) just ignores War threads at this point... but I guess his folly has become distention, perhaps? The more you guys reply, the more he will post. Fine, stick up for him, what ever....

dude...I was kidding. LOL!

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited November 11, 2006).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Well it was rather hard to tell, Lava. Maybe you should put a smiley or smiley in there next time, or a j/k.

I love your avatar, Faith_Warrior! (did I say that already?)

"It's so easy, a caveman could do it! But warsong could not, without engaging in a length and insult filled theological debate with the Geico support person on the merits of Orthodoxy over Judaism..."

Warsong: "But I tell you, the Jews rejected Jesus!"
Support Rep: "Dude, would you just get the heck out of here? Man, we shoulda hired you for the commercials..."

"You are insulting me which in no way or did it detract from my argument and you are wrong! Why do you even have this job when you can't figure out that I am right?"

"Uh, Dude... I'm just the customer support guy, like."

"They rejected Jesus! Can't you understand that? I can see why it might miss if you were or are a young, but our country is going down the tubes, because of irresponsible loafers such as yourself!"
"Dude.. that's kinda harsh..."

"Harsh? The Bible says hell is reserved for Satan and all who follow him. I suppose you consider that harsh?!"
"Well no-"
"I suppose you'd rather Hitler and Stalin and all the others just get a free pass to heaven? You Judas, you!"
"Look, I'm gonna have to cut you off, Dude..."

"Ah, running away like a coward! That's what your kind always has done been doing."
"My kind? What exactly is that?"
"Evil is everywhere and must not be tolerated! The Christians of today are terribly off track. My Orthodox priest said a day ago that-"
"Dude, you didn't answer my question."
"See, there you go with the personal attacks again. It's kinda hard to debate when you keep doing that."
"Me? Dude, you just-"
"In the book of Peter, he said that the ones who walk in darkness are known by their works. Have you ever given money to the Church?"
"Well, no..."
"Ahha! And you call yourself a Geico support person, you miserable excuse for a helper. If all the workers here were like you..."
"Goodbye, sir."
"Leaving, eh? I should've known. You guys never stick around when your arguments are being torn to shreds."

"I think I'll go over to Earthlink's site and talk to their support representative."

...

[This message has been edited by Lazarus (edited November 11, 2006).]

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
Yes, but most of the time that takes away from the sarcasim.

And trust me, if I used an exclamation mark where I did, I am more than likely kidding

------------------

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by LAVA:
dude...I was kidding. LOL!


lol ok you had me really, really worried there for a moment.

quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:

I love your avatar, Faith_Warrior! (did I say that already?)


haha yeah, their the coolest commercials on TV. Thanks


quote:
Originally posted by brandon:
Wow! All I have to say is that when I read Warsongs first post about the things that those leaders have said, it really was a painful read.


Actually the original post addresses two completely different matters simply to attack anything not of the OP's Church organization (imo). In the first case, Ted is just a man, he is capable of falling short of the mark like anyone else. Even all the apostles fell short, they all strayed, they all met the rooster in some way. The thing is they repented and moved on, this is fully acceptable. This story should not even be a big deal, but it was released just before the elections to discredit the evangelical vote and shame them to stay home and not cast their votes. This was not a new story, it was just timed to shame Christians for political gains. Sadly, some didn't get the intent of the story, they just watch too much TV and not spend enough time in the inspired and infallible word of God, the Bible.

Second case is regarding apostasy. As the bible says, ďin the last days many will depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demonsĒ(1Tim 4:1-2). This is a case that is non-repentative unlike the case of Ted in which realized his shortcoming and repented. There are actually many cases of some Church organizations delivering apostate teachings, but the true definition of a Christian is not what Church organization one belongs to (i.e. THE Orthodox Church), but a persons personal decision to follow Christ, alone.

I mean really, why is it that some must tare down other Churches simply to promote their own? What is the good news in that? I could see good intentions simply to warn others of such teachers, but not everyone does it to simply warning others of such pitfalls, but to simple bring everyone else into the muck and stand above them. It really does not effect me concerning what Ted does with his life, I only look to Jesus as my example. And when I fall, and I have, I simply get back up and keep running the race. Just watch out for those that would stick their foot out to trip you, k?

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
lol ok you had me really, really worried there for a moment.


Haha, side with the ENEMY? NEVAH!!

JK

Don't worry Warsong, I don't think you're the enemy.

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited November 11, 2006).]




Posts:
From:
Registered:
Brandon---
Yeah I was shocked me and mad me sad of that news. I donít care what she believes but for her to be in charge of others and push those views is what is scary. The problem is that more sects will turn to her way of thinking. :-(
Other here says well no one is perfect and they still follow that.
I understand that no one is perfect and make a degree of error like less than 10% but to make say something that is over 50% of what you believe is beyond an error but an entirely different ideology and they pass it off as Christianity. :|

As for the rest----
Stop instigating, putting words in my mouth, and acting like fools! You donít want to see me when I am not nice. lol

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." (Plato) philosopher
"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) philosopher

Did anyone find out about Mr. Haggard yet in why it happened at that time? Maybe it was his political views that got him in trouble? Will anyone defend him instead of saying everyone makes errors? He denies it so it seems worth investigating. Again to follow the money is a good first lead. :-P

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
fools!... philosopher... follow the money :-P


Homer: Aw, twenty dollars! I wanted a peanut!
Homer's Brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer: Explain how!
Homer's Brain: Money can be exchanged for goods and services!
Homer: Woo-hoo!
Homer Simpson - philosopherer

CoolJ

Member

Posts: 354
From: ny
Registered: 07-11-2004
I'm definitely not say 'nahnahneenahnah... my church is better..." I'm trying let you know that no Christian group is immune from corruption, not even the Orthodox Church. But when you start implying the Orthodox church is better, that raises a red flag in my mind...

But from what we both have said I think we can agree with the following:

1. This new Archbishop of the Episcopal Church is WAY OFF on her beliefs. I'm not Episcopal, so I don't understand what in the world these people are think, But as you probably know these liberal beliefs that are creeping into these churches are causing more conservative and traditional (individuals and entire diocese) to splinter off and get back to their roots. Remember, the Episcopal church is only a branch of the Anglican church, which is more conservative.

2. As far as this Evangelical leader (Haggard), corruption and sin can and does happen with members and leaders of any church. The Orthodox Church is not immune! Denial and coverup can be a BIG problem with large church organization too, the Catholic church found this out the hard way with the Priest scandal, and so did the Orthodox Church just last year. Is any church immune NO!!!

(A quote from a 2005 article)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1418094,00.html

quote:

"Scrambling to resolve the worst crisis in the church's modern history, the embattled spiritual leader, Archbishop Christodoulos, convened the rare meeting as allegations of skulduggery, sexual improprieties, trial rigging, drug and antiquities smuggling engulfed the institution.

"I humbly ask for forgiveness from the people and the clerics who, for the most, honour... the cassock they wear," he said addressing the 102-member Holy Synod, the church's ruling council.
"There is a lot that must be done to put our house in order," he conceded before proposing a series of reforms.

Greeks have watched dumbfounded as allegations of their priesthood's dissolute lifestyle have unfolded on their television screens.

Snatched tape-recordings, aired nightly, have revealed rampant homosexuality among senior clerics who, unlike ordinary priests, are under oaths of chastity.

The alleged debauchery has not been limited to monastic cells. Last week, claims emerged that Metropolitan Theoklitos of Thessaly, a leading churchman, had been arrested on suspicion of drug dealing in a police raid on a notorious nightclub in Athens.

The priest was reportedly rounded up with Seraphim Koulousousas, the archbishop's former private secretary, also implicated in another "unholy affair" involving gay sex with a bishop.

In a setback for Archbishop Christodoulos, Mr Koulousousas announced this week that he was leaving the church to embark on a career as a fashion designer in Paris.

The Greek Orthodox church sees homosexuality as an "abomination," with the archbishop recently describing it as a "blatant, crying sin".

The revelations follow the suspension of two high-ranking clerics for "ethical misconduct" earlier this month.

Metropolitan Panteleimon of Attica, who headed Greece's richest diocese, was withdrawn from duties after allegations of "lewd exchanges with young men" and charges that he had embezzled around Ä4.4m (£3m) for "his old age."

The bishop is one of several eminent priests whose names have been linked in a widening trial-fixing and corruption scandal involving at least 20 judges currently under investigation.

In the wake of suggestions by fellow members of the synod that he resign, Panteleimon's reaction was less than charitable. "If I speak, there will be an earthquake. I'll take many with me to my grave."






Posts:
From:
Registered:
Cool
I have to take it a bit slow it seems.... ok.
I understand what you are doing but it wonít work. The point is that no person is immune from SIN (corruption or other bad things) since everyone is human and everyone sins. We agree their.

1-At least we agree that itís not right. You say you disagree with liberalism in the church but you kind of wanted that in what you said in the last post that it isnít faith that an orthodox country is not being more liberal to let others, since it seems like you want things PC. Donít forget that a slow compromising is what leads us further away from Christís teachings. If you want the church to go to original roots then you look at orthodoxy since you know they were their before anyone else.
ďBasically, Jesus Christ did not come to establish such a thing as "Christianity". Even the word is not in the Holy Scriptures. What Christ Jesus did do was to establish the Church, which ScriptureÖĒ the link explains more
http://www.stmichaelgoc.org/aboutstmichaels/abouttheorthodoxchurchandfaith.html

2-As for haggard he is the head and as I said people are with sin, and it is bad to have a head of the church. As for the story thatís old, and he was as significant as an ant in an ant colony, and not a queen in an ant colony. The other 2 were head of their churches, and even Christ said everyone is equal, and only Christ can be the head of the church. Sure there are wave of catholic priest that are pedophiles since the catholic church brings those types of people in since it was a safe haven for gay men and women as many ex catholic officials have said in books and on TV. Every church had a pervert like that but it depends on how the church deals with the issue if they boot or arrest them (right) or keep them or move them around (wrong). But the thing is not that they do that but what the churches stance is on it and how it deals with it. If the pope did it and said its ok then thatís a bigger problem wouldnít you say? Again everyone sins but to embrace an error and put it as law is bad. So is any church immune YES, is any person immune NO. Now please tell me you understand that?

The church officially is not saying that itís ok to do bad things and not believe in Christ to go to heaven which if they did then it would be an entirely different religion. The other point is that The Orthodox Church doesnít have a one leader like the pope and it never did even when the apostle was a bishop of the Church. The bible was made democratically to come up with it, and not you just have a woman that say whatever she wants. Now can you say itís the same? Obviously not!

In conclusion, again people sin no matter who you are which is why to be the head of a religion is not right and only Christ can be the head. Even a priest, bishop, archbishop, etc are all equal, and if one fails itís no big deal since they are all in a group to make a decisions which has been doing so for 2000 years and has not bended over like other liberal churches and has been condemned for being conservative and not compromising to modern day attacks, just like your last post that they should change in what you said.
YES?

Faith-
You are just proving this right again
"Wise men talk because they have something to say;
fools, because they have to say something." (Plato)

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

CoolJ

Member

Posts: 354
From: ny
Registered: 07-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
The point is that no person is immune from SIN (corruption or other bad things) since everyone is human and everyone sins. We agree their.

..ever so sloowwly....GOOD!

Now baby step 2......

just repeat the following....

"The Orthodox Church is made up of people, AND since people sin, the Orthodox church is no more immune from corruption than <INSERT PROTESTANT CHURCH DENOMINATION HERE> as was pointed out to me by coolj and others.

Also, since both coolj and I find it hard to misinterpret the requirements of our church officials as stated in I Timothy 3:1 and elsewhere, we find it bad that entire groups have done just so."

Warsong - take a look at the beliefs and creeds of the majority of protestant churches, you will no doubt come to the startling conclusion that they are, if anything, MORE conservative that the Orthodox Church. Most take a strict and literal reading of the bible since things like praying to the Saints and the usage of Icons are not referenced in the Bible, thus not included in services and worship.

I feel our basic (from the Bible) beliefs are very similar. But, if I was to become an Orthodox Christian I believe the hardest thing for me would be trying to understand, apply and follow the practices and beliefs of the Orthodox Church that aren't specified or even mentioned as acts of worship in the Bible. You see, for most protestants, adding requirements to what is not specified in the Bible is a form of libralization of the Church, since the Bible IS our fundamental instruction book.

bennythebear

Member

Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
i want to know where the praying to the saints and all that came into play? or the priests/"fathers"(mathew 23:9)/(hebrews 7) wearing long robes(luke 20:46) and saying big wrote up prayers(mathew 23:14) came into play? i wish we all would just study the bible, after praying and living right, and would simply follow what it said along with the specific day to day instructions we recieved from the Holy Ghost. if only this flesh would die.

------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:

You are just proving this right again
"Wise men talk because they have something to say;
fools, because they have to say something." (Plato)


Homer's Brain: Use reverse psychology.
Homer: Oh, that sounds too complicated.
Homer's Brain: Okay, don't use reverse psychology.
Homer: Okay, I will! (Homer)

CoolJ

Member

Posts: 354
From: ny
Registered: 07-11-2004
and remember......

....this guy lost his instruction book

Don't loose YOUR'S !!!




Posts:
From:
Registered:
Cool
You just want things twisted your way. You are not admitting that to have 1 leader to be head of the religion is wrong. You are not admitting that an individual should not by himself dictate what the church should do since he can be wrong. Itís obvious that no ďONEĒ is perfect but to say that Christ ďgeneralĒ institution of the church is as wrong as the maker then that just proves our case that people are infallible and only Christ and his actions are not.

ďWhen the papacy defined itself as infallible (First Vatican Council, 1870), the gulf between East and West grew wider.Ē
The same thing is happening to other churches. Only Christís church is infallible in its teachings since it preserves how the church acted when the apostle were in charge of the Orthodox Church, and so the church is infallible but not the people. You donít seem to understand the fine line of things to distinguish. Repeat what I am saying and I get the feeling you might say it wrong since maybe you are not paying attention lol.

Do you understand this?

Here is a quote to help explain it to you more
"The Fathers defined everything perfectly; he who goes against this is anathema; no one adds, no one takes away" (Acta Concil. II, 1).
Sabas, the bishop of Paltus in Syria in the fifth century, speaking about the Council of Nicea said:
"Our Fathers who met at Nicea did not make their declarations of themselves but spoke as the Holy Spirit dictated."
"Following the Fathers" becomes a fixed expression in the minutes and the declarations of the Ecumenical Councils as well as of the local ones. Thus, the Ecumenical Councils and also some local councils, which later received universal acceptance, express the infallible teaching of the Church, a teaching which is irrevocable.
Are the Ecumenical Councils of the Church the only infallible and correct instruments in proclaiming and implementing the faith of the Church? Certainly, no bishops by themselves, no local churches, no theologians can teach the faith by themselves alone. The Ecumenical Councils are among the most important means which inscribe, proclaim, and implement the faith of the Church, but only in conjunction with Scripture, and the Tradition. The Ecumenical Councils are an integral part of the ongoing Tradition of the Church. Thus, the Orthodox Church claims that she has kept intact the faith of the first seven Ecumenical Councils. ď
Do you understand this?
--------------- A non orthodox siteís comments says:
ďIts doctrine of the church distinguishes Orthodoxy most clearly from all other theologies. According to this doctrine the visible church is the body of Christ, a communion of believers, headed by a bishop and united by the Eucharist, in which God dwells. As such, although individual members are fallible sinners, the church is held to be infallible. This true church by definition is the Orthodox Church, which is "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic," from which other churches are separated. ď

ďThe infallibility of the church validates the authority of tradition on a par with that of Scripture. Moreover, tradition established both canon and interpretation of that Scripture and thus takes logical precedence over it.Ē
Do you understand this?
--------- -
As for the bible as I stated in the last post ďbible as word of GodĒ I quoted:ďDo you (Orthodoxy) believe in the Bible?
No. We believe in God! We do, however, believe the Bible to be God's inspired word a part of the Tradition of the Church. (II Thessalonians, 2:15) In fact, it was the Orthodox Church that gave us the Bible, as we know it today!
You didn't think it just fell from heaven as we have it, did you?Ē
http://www.stmichaelgoc.org/aboutstmichaels/abouttheorthodoxchurchandfaith.html
You keep following the bible that Orthodoxy gave you? Why do you since maybe the bible is all wrong since it didnít fall from the sky. Orthodoxy operated without the bible which you follow now, but can you? I explained this in that post why taking the bible into your own hands is wrong, but in the last 500 years itís all right which is why we have every person making their own religion that going with 2000 years of experience, which is like a 5 year old telling a mathematician about math. The order of the church is what helped it, and gave you the bible; while the other churches church order take away the purpose of the bible. You canít beat the original with photocopy; if you try you will just end up having a lie. Try selling a photocopy of a signature of a celebrity and see how much its worth. I know all your arguments so itís no use, and I have mostly answered them in other posts in one form or another. There is a lot to learn, but I see no one looking for answers.
Give me a check list of what you agree and disagree on, maybe it would be better.
Remindes me of a funny incident. An atheist was ripping to shred a generic bible since he hates it and some Christian get offended, but that guy is just as logical/ sane as someone else taking a stick and hitting the ocean since they donít know how to swim, and you would find it funny.

Ps. Donít tell me you were around when that show was on the air, better yet I don't want to know.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32