For example it was said in another thread that this verse is not from God:

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." - 1Ti 2:11

Because it advices woman to humble them self for their husband some people don't like it but you my friend who are offended by this have not come to understand or have not noticed that it is blessed to do so.
This does not mean that woman should be like a slave (if that's what it gives to you) but that woman should submit to her husband with love. Nor does it mean that man should not submit to her wife, no man should submit to her wife likewise - they are one flesh.
"That verse was written by apostole Paul, now what else does paul say?:
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" - Eph 5:25
- Now He is saying husbands should love their wifes like Christ also loved the church - see the pattern?

Now what does Jesus say about this subjection?
"But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant." - Mat 23:11
A servant is the greatest? That is how Jesus was like as well, he served others and ultimately gave His own life and by doing so served God by doing His will.
"And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." - Mar 1:11

It is also evident that it's possible for man to speak word of God when He is filled with God's spirit:

"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. " - Act 4:31

If we doupt some part of the Bible it is good to remember these words:
"Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" - Jer 23:29
See God's word is like a hammer that breaks the rocks(lies) leaving only the pure word(truth).

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." - Heb 4:12

I don't want to sound arrogant but are there any other argument why some one would not believe that Bible is fully the word of God?

PS. Here are few inspirational verses about word of God:

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. - Joh 17:17

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. - Psa 12:6

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. - Act 13:48

Jesus did not come to destroy the law (written in OT):
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. - Mat 5:17

"All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." - 2 Timothy 3:16

[This message has been edited by jari (edited October 13, 2006).]

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Maybe I'll make an avatar. Smiley it will be.

Rember my older posts in the religious forum? Maybe not but I will try find some good quotes for you. But here is an explanation on refining your view. But it is a sin to take the bible into your own hand which I have to look for that part as well. Look at it logically first to see the outcome of the actions when people take it in their own hands. Also the point of apostolic succession.

"THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGES - THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD

The Gospel of Christ and, in general, the Holy Bible are written with the inspiration of God. The Prophets and the Apostles have recorded in written form a portion of the oral teaching of the Old Testament in Hebrew and Aramaic as well as the New Testament in Greek. These are the original languages of the Holy Bible from' which all the translations have been derives. God's inspiration is confined to the original languages and utterances, not the many translations. There are 1,300 languages and dialects into which the Holy Bible, in its entirety or in portions, has been translated. This does not mean that the translations do not convey the meaning of the Bible for spiritual uprightness of the readers in their own language. On the contrary the Bible should be spread and preached to "all nations". The missionaries in foreign lands learn the language or the dialect of. the new area into which they bring the Bible and other religious teachings. For example, the missionaries from Constantinople, Saints Cyril and Methodios, sent to Christianize the Slavic peoples in the 9th century, first translated the Bible and the ritual books into the language of the people.

Translations of the Bible are very necessary, but are not sufficient for formulating dogmas and doctrines of the Church, which requires reference to the original languages. The translations depend upon the genius and-knowledge of the translator in the selection of the proper words and phrases to render meaning as close as possible to the text of the original language. It is well-known that a new translation is more or less a new interpretation. This is obvious when the Bible is translated in the same language, but in different expressions and words. For instance, in the English language there are many translations and renderings with different words and phrases, which imply that one translation differs from the other. The many translations in the same language are justified in that new renderings are different from the previous ones. The fact that there are many translations in the same language indicates that the first translation is not understood after many centuries. For instance, the first translation into the English language from the original New Testament Greek and Old Testament Hebrew by John Wycliffe in the fifteenth century is incomprehensible to the, reader today in English.

Unique characteristics such as idioms and colloquialisms make it impossible for an accurate translation of the meaning of the original Language. Therefore, the translations should be used for, the spiritual guidance of the believers, but not for the formulation of dogmatical teaching of the Church. This is why it cannot be said that the translations are "the inspired word of God". Only the original language is "the inspired word of God." It should be repeated however that the translations of the' Bible are necessary for the spreading of the Revealed Truths of God among the people in all languages. This is the great commandment of God and the mission of His Church, for Jesus Christ Himself commissioned the Apostles to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you", Matthew 28:19, 20. This is to be in many languages of the nations, especially to nations which have never heard the Christian Message. "

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"

quote:

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Originally posted by warsong:
Jari

Rember my older posts in the religious forum? Maybe not but I will try find some good quotes for you. But here is an explanation on refining your view. But it is a sin to take the bible into your own hand which I have to look for that part as well. Look at it logically first to see the outcome of the actions when people take it in their own hands. Also the point of apostolic succession.

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Sorry I don't remember it. What is that you mean by this? I dont understand, was there something wrong I said?

In the original post I just wanted to point out that God's word is fully in the Bible despite it may not always seem so at the first place but if you study carefully you will see that it is so. Bad translations can cause confusion, unfortunately, but KJV is good.

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1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

But here is a new one for you.
What God says is true but a misinterpretation is dangerous even if it is off 1% since even aiming at a target that is 500feet away by an inch is a lot especially when Christianity has a distance of 200years. Many may have the general idea of what they should do but in their Christian faith but the vast majority does not and we see this in today’s actions and the many forms of various Christian clones that put their own message instead of Christs.

"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Also Apostle Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture saying: "Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scripture ... knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of man and lose your own stability" (2 Peter 3:15-17).

Even my last post in here shows an extreme example of the head of the Protestant Bishop that says you don’t need Christ to be saved which is kind of like the Jewish religion to cast out Christ and will wait for the fake messing which Christ points out it’s the devil which the vast majority of Christians will fall prey to this deception.
“2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privity shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

Well it’s east to say that all sects are alike and people are more willing to read that short phrase and believe it than get the long reason why it is not since its easy to damage but hard to build and people choose the destructive meaning. Society is sliding also the notion that all religion are exactly the same weather it be Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, etc which is what the mainly push in colleges and in recently some Christian sermons.
Some of the quotes were taken form this short lecture which explains the first 2 quotes.
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“The Church Of Christ
The life of the Orthodox Church has had an uninterrupted continuity since the days of Christ and His Apostles. History verifies that it is an Apostolic Church, so its history is as old as Christianity itself. The same Head, Jesus Christ, the same teachings, the same principles have remained throughout the centuries. The original birthday celebrated by the Apostles - the Day of Pentecost - is recorded in its annals. The Eastern Orthodox Church did not originate with any personality of the Church, but with Christ Himself and His Apostles.

Through its 2,000 years the Eastern Orthodox Church is the only Church which has maintained from the beginning a coherent interpretation of its teachings. This Church is the only one which preserves intact the "Paradosis," (i.e.) - the Written and Unwritten Tradition. The Church does not permit the individual to interpret Scripture, but neither does it prevent the individual from exploring the deep meaning of the Bible to find new expressions of the same teachings of Christ. However, this always must be authorized by the Church as a whole - where infallibility lies. The Church is the "guide" and not the individual on his own, with limited ability and lack of the full knowledge of the history and basic sources of the teachings of Christ's Church.

The Church - from catacombs to cathedrals, from plain teachings to dogma and doctrine, from simple directions to formal administration ---, follows the steps which have been revealed to it by Almighty God in a coherent continuation of its external and internal teaching of the faith. There are two specific distinctions within the Orthodox Church. One is the relationship between "freedom and authority" in the government of the Church; the other, is the system of self-governing churches. The highest authority in the Eastern Orthodox Church is the "Conscience of the Church:' which is the consent of the people of the Church in the explanation of the faith given at times of its disputes. The general assemblies (synods) of the self-governing National Orthodox Churches, made up of clergy, especially bishops, meet to decide, by unanimous opinion, matters of faith in dispute.

NATIONAL JURISDICTIONS COMPRISE ONE CHURCH--
All the self-governing national churches which comprise the Eastern Orthodox Church have the same teachings, canons and liturgical worship, and, in fact, constitute this - One Church. The Church consists of the self-governing jurisdictions, churches which owe their origins to missionaries from Constantinople and other Patriarchates are: Ancient Patriarchates of Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem; the churches in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Czechoslovakia, Cyprus, Georgia, Poland, Finland, Albania, Ukraine, Mt. Sinai, Latonia, Latvia, Estonia. Over 300 million Orthodox Christians are throughout the world. The Patriarch of Constantinople is the 270th successor to Apostle Andrew.

The Eastern Orthodox Church had to counteract over the centuries the propaganda of many members of the Church, both laymen and clergymen, who began to teach falsely the Christian faith. From the ninth century doctrinal differences began to emerge between the Eastern and Western parts of the Undivided Church. With the Great Schism of 1054, the One Church founded by Christ was divided into two churches: Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic. Then in the 16th century on, with the rise of Protestantism, additional mistaken interpretations of doctrines became more explicit. Against all these factors, the Orthodox Church has fought to keep itself intact to defend the truths which had been taught by its Founder, Jesus Christ and His Apostles, in whom the roots of the Church are to be found. These circumstances demanded that the Church defend its teachings and set forth the sources with accurate interpretations over the centuries. It must be stressed that the development of these sources was to counteract the false opinions of Christians themselves. These opinions are not based on the correct interpretation of the Church itself, but on false opinions based on individual misinterpretations and misunderstanding.

THE ACCURATE SOURCES OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH--
The accurate sources of the One Undivided Church - the Eastern Orthodox Church - from which emerge its teachings are: the main sources of the Eastern Orthodox teaching are the Bible and Sacred Tradition, both of equal authority. The third source is the writings of the so-called Apostolic Fathers and Apologists, the writers who followed the authors of the New Testament. The fourth source is the decisions of the canonical synods, local and ecumenical (7 Synods), and their utterances of faith, especially the Nicene Creed and some of their canons pertaining to faith.

These four sources are the primary and distinctive sources of faith of the Eastern Orthodox Church-- ratified by the Synods and are unchangeable inform and substance. The secondary sources -- the fifth through the seventh -- are decisions of synods which took place after the 8th century. They are of secondary significance, but very important for the historical evolution of the teachings of the Orthodox Church, especially the teachings against the innovations of the Roman Church, which separated in 1054 from the Orthodox Church, and with reference to Protestant denominations dating from the 16th century. These are sources, pending ratification by an Ecumenical Synod, and may be accepted, corrected or not accepted. The fifth source is the discourses written at the time of disputes and schisms, especially the Great Schism between the Eastern and Western parts of the Undivided Church (in 1054). The sixth source is discourses written on the rise of Protestantism, its differences from and relationship to the Orthodox Church. The seventh source is the discourses written through the World Council of Churches today, and mostly on its relationship to the Orthodox Church.
There is an important distinction between the primary and secondary sources because the primary sources were found in the life and teachings of the One Undivided Church of the first one thousand years of Christianity and were adopted and kept as such through the centuries (expect innovations such as the filioque phrase in the Nicene Creed).

Because Sacred Tradition is of equal validity as the Bible, the identification of sources is essential since Tradition is rooted in these sources, written and preserved by the Church itself. This is important, because the Church itself makes the decisions and interprets the Bible, eliminating possible individual misinterpretations.

DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS CAUSE DIVISIONS--
The Church has been separated into many parts because individuals through the centuries have taken it upon themselves to interpret the Bible personally. The Bible states: "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21). Also Apostle Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture saying: "Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scripture ... knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of man and lose your own stability" (2 Peter 3:15-17).
The Eastern Orthodox Church is blessed in that the interpretation of Scripture and the teachings of the Church of Christ have the unanimous ratification of the Church, with its infallible authority. It is this interpretation of the teachings of Christ by the infallible Church that must be first known and understood by all who are admonished by the Apostle Peter: "Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence" (1 Peter 3:15).

THE ECUMENICAL CHARACTER OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH--
The sovereignty of God is implanted in the freedom of man's nature and destiny in understanding and obedience within the Church. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, Who remains in it until the consummation of the ages. Democratic spirit in the Church is kept by the constitution of its faith and the canons governing its affairs. The Church at large grants to its leaders the authority to apply its regulations at the appropriate time. The effectiveness of the constitution of faith and the canons of order has been proven even among its self-governing, autocephalous branches. As one and the same Ecclesia, they adhere both to its articles of faith and rules of disciple. They are equally applied to all its members even those in high governing positions - without exception.

Even the Ecumenical Patriarch is considered "the first among equals" in leading this great Church according to this constitution of faith and the canons of order. Any shortcomings in the administration of the Church are due to the fact that this Church had no opportunity to convene an ecumenical synod during a period of outside political upheavals and foreign domination. The synod is the only authoritative body that issues new canons of order and eliminates obsolete ones. However, these shortcomings deal with and affect only the external affairs of the Church.

The Orthodox Church is aware of democratic principles in government. It has accomplished the venerable task of merging God's authority and man's freedom in the formulation of its confession of faith and rules of order. There is no one person who leads or speaks for the Church nor do all its members act separately. But it is the Church as a whole, the one Mystical Body of Christ, which throughout the centuries has carried on the truth as it was taught and heard "everywhere, at anytime."

It is the Eastern Orthodox Church - despite the cruelties and political persecutions it faced over the centuries - that has preserved the faith and morals of the once Undivided Ecumenical Church of the first 1,000 years. This is with great sacrifice in preserving the teachings of the Original Church. Truly it is the continuation of this Original Church.
Selections From The Writings Of The Rev. George Mastrantonis “
I didn’t get this form online but you can look for it.

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“Do you (Orthodoxy) believe in the Bible?

No. We believe in God! We do, however, believe the Bible to be God's inspired word a part of the Tradition of the Church. (II Thessalonians, 2:15) In fact, it was the Orthodox Church that gave us the Bible, as we know it today!
You didn't think it just fell from heaven as we have it, did you? :-)” funny Q&As and a few more that explain.
http://www.stmichaelgoc.org/aboutstmichaels/abouttheorthodoxchurchandfaith.html

Another place says this
"The Orthodox generally interpret the Bible in terms of Christ. In this sense, the Old Testament is partial in that it prepares for the time of Christ, the Messiah, who fulfills its message and history.

The New Testament writings are also centered around Christ and tell of His action in the world and in the Church through the Holy Spirit.

Thus the Orthodox position about the Bible, would be that the New Testament is prefigured in the Old, and the Old Testament is fulfilled in the New.

The Bible is central in the life of the Church and gives both form and content to the Church's liturgical and sacramental worship, just as to its theology and spiritual life. Nothing in the Orthodox Church can be opposed to what is revealed in the Bible. Everything in the Church must be biblical.

The Bible itself, however, not only determines and judges the life of the Church, but is itself judged by the Church since it "comes alive" and receives its proper interpretation and significance only within the life of the Church as actually lived and experienced by the People of God. "

Have Fun Jari

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited November 09, 2006).]

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Gonzalo: Here is everything advantageous to life.
Antonio: True, save means to live!

chickadoo: As far as I know King James translated it and it seems to be very well translated when compared to greek/hebrew texts - I have used eSword for this.

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1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

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Gonzalo: Here is everything advantageous to life.
Antonio: True, save means to live!

Lately I see other sects agreeing with the Orthodox perspective since they see that the other way didn’t work and see the injustice it causes. Sometimes it’s scary how some Christians interpret the bible and have cause many problems. People can get a general idea but not get every little thing since many are far from being Christians even me to the point of how the apostles were.

But mistranslations happen intentionally just like the other post I just made since we have to see political influence that makes the changes. Separation of church and state was to protect the church from the government and not the other way around which many Christians seem to push for. http://www.christiancoders.com/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum9&topic=000253
This is another reason why religious tradition is important and not social traditions which many misunderstand that part of the bible as well.

Also I see I had some typos before and one type was not 200 years but 2000 years. But I guess many understood that Christianity is not 200 years old. lol

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

quote:

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Originally posted by warsong:
I am guessing the KJV is closer to the original but still that is far second best compared to the original. Even if we look at outside sources in other book that are translates like the classics of the Iliad or odyssey they are very different from the original experts say that have read and compared the 2 since it is not easy to translate the language because they say the other languages are limited in vocabulary, emphasis, etc to capture the original meaning. And so you need an "expert" to explain it which is why the church is there to explain it.

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Hmm, what do you mean by "so you need an "expert" to explain it" ? Because who is an "expert" than the Holy spirit?
But of course Bible study groups are good or after your private Bible study it's good to share your knowledge with the other members of church so you can see if you have understand or not.

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1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Bible study with only people that are not experienced as a priest will not always come up with the same conclusions. If they relay what a priest says then it would be better to talk about it and see what questions they have is my opinion. Can you say that fasting, communion, church tradition is good when you only deal with people that don’t understand the purpose of it fully, don't know anyone that does, don’t do it, and don’t want to?

I'll send you something in pm that explains more. You tell me what you think about it.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

quote:

---

Originally posted by warsong:
Even if we look at outside sources in other book that are translates like the classics of the Iliad or odyssey they are very different from the original experts say that have read and compared the 2 since it is not easy to translate the language because they say the other languages are limited in vocabulary, emphasis, etc to capture the original meaning. And so you need an "expert" to explain it which is why the church is there to explain it.

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Latinem dico, ergo, Vulgatem legere mihi possum.

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Gonzalo: Here is everything advantageous to life.
Antonio: True, save means to live!

2. As someone pointed out to me a couple days ago, I'm sure you all are familiar w/ the passage "study to show thyself approved"....that "study" was being remarked on as being done on the Old Testament, for the reason that the New Testament hadn't been written (was being written but was hardly finished.) Following Christ, the message of the Gospel and further doctrinal teaching was not done out of (or only out of) the accounts of those who were there....the message of the Gospels were preached using the Old Testament, to show the Jews (and later the Gentiles) where Christ had come from, and what did he come to do.

To separate out the Old Testament as dry history w/o doctrinal validity on par with the New Testament is to "wrongly divide".

quote:

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Originally posted by netcog:

To separate out the Old Testament as dry history w/o doctrinal validity on par with the New Testament is to "wrongly divide".

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Amen.

- Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

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1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)