dXter Member Posts: 59 From: Texas, the US of A Registered: 09-26-2006 |
I know it's not relevant or even a little bit important, but I've been wondering about angels and demons and what they're like: Do angels have free wills just like us, so that they can choose to do evil if they want? Do angels have "natural" supernatural powers (in other words, special powers they can use whenever they want and not only when God gives them power). Are demons rebelled angels like Satan or are they some sort of Satan's "creation" that aren't even really souls? (I know, Satan can't create, but I couldn't think of another word). Can demons actually put up a fight against angels, or can angels, since they are servants of God, just make demons disappear (like in the "cease to exist" kind of disappear).
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jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
Angels DO have free will, otherwise Lucifer would not have rebelled and thus become Satan. He used to be God's number 2 guy, he hovered above the throne of God, but then he scrounged up a few other angels and figured he could overtake God. I'm pretty sure that those angels because what we know as demons. Now as to the question of if God can simply just destroy Satan and his demons or if they actually stand a chance in a fight... well, i don't think there is any details in the bible about it. the closest thing it talks about is a war between them when they left, but i think Michael just booted them all out. but i'm not really an expert on this... anyone else? |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
when Satan rebelled, a third of the angels in heaven rebelled with him and became the demons. now, demons do have a fighting chance against angels. In the book of Daniel, a messenger of God (angel) said he was battling the Prince of Persia(demon) for 21 days and that was why God's response to Daniel's prayers was late. and Angels and Demons are both pretty supernatural. ------------------ |
Jari Member Posts: 1471 From: Helsinki, Finland Registered: 03-11-2005 |
It's interesting that Satan and demons fight against eacher when God is almighty and could destroy satan just like that if he wanted to. I guess this is because we have this thing called time and when we read the Bible it's interesting to see how God speaks about things coming when He has foreseen everything. Sometimes He asks from man what he has done and sometimes he tells what will happen and sometimes he wants some one to do something even he could "do it him self". I doupt that God would let any one His angels persish likewise He wont let anyone of us who believe in Him perish. Just some thoughts. ------------------ [VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3) |
steveth45 Member Posts: 536 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
In the book of Daniel (chapter 10) an angel was sent to Daniel but was waylaid for a time by a demonic principality. It seems to suggest that angels and demons can fight and overpower each other but perhaps not "kill": 12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. ------------------ |
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dXter Member Posts: 59 From: Texas, the US of A Registered: 09-26-2006 |
I just found that in Genesis 19, when Lot takes the angels into his home in Sodom, that the angels struck the townspeople blind when they surrounded the house. That sounds to me like it was the angels' own power to make the people blind, and not God working through them (like miracles God performs through people, like Moses parting the Red Sea). ------------------ "Time is an excellent teacher, but eventually it kills all of its students." |
Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
Yeah that is interesting. All of their power does come from God, but we just don't know how that works. As for the miracles via Moses and others; God does things in those ways so that we can learn to depend on Him, build our faith, and deepen our relationship with Him. If the Angels see God as He is then they probably wouldn't have doubts, or lack faith in Him at all. I'm sure that has something to do with it...
quote: I love talking about this kind of stuff. Well... here's my thoughts. Yeah I think demons can contend with angels, war in heaven is mentioned in the bible, and steveth45 mentioned above about the occurance in the book of Daniel, I have a feeling that this type of warfare is not at all physical how we'd imagine it... It is far deeper than that... actually we have input as well. In the sense of over-throwing God... of course that battle was over before it started. (There are future events that will take place with it, but we know how it'll turn out cause God tells us in Revelation) But the battle right now is the one for the lost souls of mankind, it's the only way they (the devil and his minions) can "hurt" God. I wouldn't think that anything that has a free will would ever cease to exist, in Jude 1:5-7 he's talking about the destruction of those who didn't believe even after they were saved from Egypt. Then it goes on to say in verse 6 that there are angels who are held in chains (eternal bonds) and under darkness for the judgement of the great day. To finish, in verse 7 it talks about those in Sodom and Gomorrah, their sin, and how they are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. See they weren't destroyed in the since of not existing. But doomed to the lake of fire for eternity... ------------------ [This message has been edited by brandon (edited October 03, 2006).] |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
well, moving on that point, let's talk about power. we humans have power. we have power to talk. to move. to life. to think. we can do work and can accomplish tasks. that is power. Is it from God? indirectly, yes. But it is a gift to us and we use it through our own will. Is it hard to extend this concept to angels and their supernatural abilites? is it not possible that demons still hold these powers? after all, if all angels were is a direct conduit through God, they wouldn't be very much of a big deal afterwards. ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
Well, the Bible says that God made us a little lower than the angels. Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that When you rank something as greater or lesser, you usually do so based on their abilities (power as you term it Arch). A human can do more than a dog, so a human is greater or higher than a dog. It would be safe to infer then that since angels are a little higher than us, that they posess powers and abilities that we do not. Because they posess these abilities, these inherent bodily traits (for lack of a better word) then they would be able to do things within our realm that we would not be able to do ourselves, so , in a sense, they would have natural supernatural powers to our eyes, because they are, by nature, capable of doing things naturally that we can not do, like the way a dog cannot build a house, or a fish cannot fly. Because of this, even though the demons are fallen angels, and no longer have communion with God, they are still essentially superior to us, they have abilities that we do not have, and probably can't understand with a mind rigged for operation in the natural realm, which is why we need to respect them as formiddable enemies and rely on and turn to God for his strength to supplement our disadvantages and natural weaknesses. So, applying things logically, that's an at least partially reasonable answer for one facet of the question I think. ------------------ Portia The Merchant of Venice |
Realm Master Member Posts: 1971 From: USA Registered: 05-15-2005 |
Wait... I though Lucifer was the 2nd most powerufl in heaven? Gabrial was still better than him in the beginning? Huh... 'K. Well, yes the angles do have free will and yes the deamons are angles... (Someone else might have brought this up aslo but..) I also belive, if im not mistaken, there were certain groups of people who were like, half angel. The tribes of isrial had some stuff on them, OT. (Old Testament) I don't know much about that, but these certain groups of people that were "superhuman" It's though to be they might be the children of Angles and women. Dunno, I gleaned taht from a nother thread on here, so ovbiously somebody knows WAAAYY more on this than I do. ------------------ Awaiting Avatar Image Size rechange... |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
I think I know what you are talking about, RM. I read about it in a revised Bible. Back in the OT near the time of Adam it talks about the sons of God marrying the daughters of men, and about the giants, sons of Anak and so forth. This could have been angels it was talking about, but - it just doesn't seem possible to me. The way I've been brought up the idea of angels being capable of doing things like that was out of the question. So I dunno. It could be, RM. Lazarus |
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SumGI Member Posts: 29 From: *Western* Montana (Oh yeah we have computers!), USA Registered: 09-16-2006 |
I wouldn't spend too much time wondering about it, if the Bible doesn't say much about something, that's all we need to know about it, eh, ehhhh? ------------------ [This message has been edited by SumGI (edited October 28, 2006).] [This message has been edited by SumGI (edited October 28, 2006).] |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
quote: A) The bible does mention in decently often. from old testament to new testament, from actual confrontations with people to visions. B) God's knowledge He wishes to share with us doesn't have to stop with the Bible; that's terribly limiting. Why would He ever do that? ------------------ |
kenman Member Posts: 518 From: Janesville WI Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: You may want to check this out. The original text "he has made us a little lower than Elohim" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim Elohim is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity. It is apparently related to the Hebrew word el, though morphologically it consists of the Hebrew word Eloah with a plural suffix. Elohim is the third word in the Hebrew text of Genesis and occurs frequently throughout the Hebrew Bible. Its exact significance is often disputed. This is closely tied into that God made us in his image (Gen 1:26-27), Jacob was able to overcome an angel in Genesis 32, but with some difficulty. So, eventhough my post is late, I do believe that we are above the angels, and certainly above the demons (Jesus made this very clear, we have power over Satan and his minions) Food For Thought |
Cohort X Member Posts: 126 From: The Great Pacific Northwest Registered: 09-16-2006 |
http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/gods.htm here's an interesting read. It seems Elohim is contextually based. It's used for God, gods, or an agent/representative of Him(judges, angels). Similar to the way the word you is used in english. "I like you" "Hey you kids get off my lawn" "I can't believe you cut down that tree"(In the case where someone was hired to cut down a tree for the person being spoken too.) If you are going to define Elohim as always meaning God then you can't contend that Jacob overcame an angel since in that passage Jacob uses the word Elohim and therefore must have wrestled with God directly. [This message has been edited by Cohort X (edited October 28, 2006).] |
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Realm Master Member Posts: 1971 From: USA Registered: 05-15-2005 |
quote: The angels taht did theat might possibly be deamons, since deamons were once angels, and if angels are capable of turning, they can turn later too. antoher 2cents by RM ------------------ |
