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Christian timeline http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/history.shtml Well Christians should know the originals and the time line of Christianity but many do not and for good reason since many Christian sects try to sell themselves as the originators that hold the original meaning even though they go further away from it. Many will disagree but everyone see it how they want to. “Some modern Christians avoid the need for historical continuity by insisting that the Church must have fallen into error and confusion and that it was only restored when their particular group was founded. But this makes a nonsense of Christ's promises: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth." John 16:13 and "I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matt 16:18 “if a person carefully examines the history of Christianity he or she will soon discover that the Orthodox Church alone is in complete sacramental, doctrinal and canonical continuity with the ancient undivided Church as it authoritatively expressed itself through the great Ecumenical Councils." “ “Orthodox teachings established by the Apostles and their successors, which were defined 'in the Seven Ecumenical Councils, and by those early Christian writers known as the Church Fathers.” The superficial opinion of the majority notwithstanding, Orthodoxy is not merely another of the many "Christian confessions" now in existence, or as it is expressed here in America "denominations." Orthodoxy is the true, undistorted, unperverted by any human sophistry or invention, genuine teaching of Christ in all its purity and fullness—the teaching of faith and piety which is life according to the Faith.
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
um. you can say the early church evolved into the orthodox church, or you can say it started with with Constantine. it's mostly an evolution. besides... who cares?
quote: Christians are still going, but that verse cannot be construed to say that no christian, or group of christians, will be wrong. psh.
quote: *cough cough* yeah, heh, right. I only hold God's word to that standard, and you have to prove to me, piece by piece, that orthodoxy matches EXACLTY before you can make that claim. ------------------ |
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
I'd have to say that in those articles its mostly proud patting ourselves on the back. I think reality shows something different. If the orthodox church was as these articles espound, the unchanged true church of God, then it would be a reflection of the christianity we see in the books on acts. The fact is the kingdom of God has advanced and is advancing and the gates of hell cannot prevail against God. However the 'catholic' world wide body of believers who make up 'the kingdom of God' aren't of one particular demonination, branch , historical background etc, for the kingdom of God is not an organisation or group of organisations that are formed and mainted TOP DOWN style - the way of the world is top down, but it is formed BOTTOM UP, from the gospel affecting the lives of individuals, then communities etc.. i do agree with one point, that many christians miss out of the richness and context of of Christ, and sometimes fall in the same pitfalls because of our ignorance of "church" history, and i do agree that the 'orthodox' church has had alot to offer, and has been of God, but i would not say that it hasn't erred, and that it has maintained the true gospel unwaively throughout history yada yada, lets go back to pauls day, the true church was a group of basically unconnected (organisationally) local churches following the teachings of Christ and the apostles and paul, However even this true chruch then was wavering here adn there, So many of pauls letters were to correct some heresy here and there, no one particular of those churches could stand up and say 'we understand the fullness and accuracy of Christs gospel and doctrine, yet all of them could stand up and claim the basics, the tenets etc, despite their failings, the grace of God was sufficent and is sufficent. the othordox church is not the same as the original church, for those people are long dead and many generations of people have been born and died, and various influences have affected it, same as any church, there are churches that i believe were founded by Jesus Christ whose 'decendants - though many aren't physical' who carry the name of that church believe and act completely contrary to the beliefs of the founders (say for example accepting homosexuality as not a sin, and even having homosexual pastors) also the true chruch is varied, read the book of relelations, letters to the different churches, many were unhealthy in various regards, though in them were those who were overcommers.. which of those churches do you think reflects the orthodox church now?, we'd all light to be the church of philidelphia, but most of the churches we are involved in won't be classified as that i think, but i do know alot in the persecuted church, who would i think be classified as that. So i believe in many of the different churches and denominations, actually EVEN in the catholic churches there will be true christians, and like all of us, like me, i have blindspots, and some of those true christians say in the catholic church may still have blindspots, may not be brave enough to questions the infallibility of their church, and may even pray to mary ( which is idolitory and sinful), yet they seek first Jesus and His kingdom, the focus every day and every year, more on Christ,more of the Gospel. and less on their church traditions, doctrines, they deminish (as well as their religious tradition) so that He (Christ) may increase. so throughout the ages, in many forms the church has prevailed and contained unbroken, however human 'religion' has been broken, abused, changed, reformed - whatever. through the last 2000 years, true christians HAVE prevailed in the orthodox church, and even inside the cathloic church (even though the catholic church and split is based on heresy, and much sin, and thus has reaped such bad fruit through history), but many stood up against the catholic church, throughout its history, and many of those were eiither killed by the catholic church, or expelled outside the 'roman' empire, where they took the true Gospel to many western european tribes. no time to say more, and off for vacation soon so God Bless. ------------------ |
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Well we are not talking about the people that follow the religion but about the Christian sect. Everyone thinks they are following Christ words and everyone wants to and thinks of doing good. Even Hitler though he was the good guy and that he was helping his people. It’s not what people believe to be right but know to be right that makes the difference and the way to go about it is to look and see how and why everything is the way it is in the religion. That’s my view about that point. Just because someone has a passion for Christ does not mean they are following the right one. I heard that there were over 100 types of Christian sects. The odds of a copy of a copy of a copy to hold the original words are far off. Even orthodoxy was attacked for not changing its ways to appease people in the society which is silly since Christ’s rules should not change but people should not drift off. The orthodoxy has not changed unlike the other churches. Even Christ gave his authority to the apostils and the apostils have the authority to give the responsibility to carry on Christ words which are generally centered in orthodoxy. To say otherwise is to say that Christ and his apostils were wrong to have the power to give authority. The original New Testament and the unedited Old Testament are help by orthodoxy. Christ even said in the New Testament that the people that have now orthodoxy will bring glory to his name. The apostils were mostly in the orthodox counties. All apostils were equal and the original 5 great churches before the Great Schism were equal too. The break apart which many do now know of was silly which Rom declared itself superior which goes against what Christ said. Everyone else that spined off of that is like trying to follow a child that broke off from the rest of the scouts. Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Rome, and Alexandria which as you see 4 out of 5 were kept the original. Rome decided to break off which you can read more on the site below. “Apostolic Succession. The Apostolic Succession is a very important sign which identifies the True Church. It means that Jesus Christ blessed His apostles to carry on His work, and the apostles blessed their students, which in turn blessed the bishops, and which blessed the priests and so on. This way, the blessing and therefore the approval originated by Jesus Christ, is on each priest in the Church. The Apostolic Succession exists in the Orthodox Church and in the Roman Church. The Protestant Churches do not have Apostolic Succession. This is one of the reasons why in the view of the Orthodox Church they are not Churches, but only Christian Communities.” They have the original traditions unlike every other sect. The site also shows many things that the Catholic Church changed. Even if you believe that the Orthodox Church changed then it still has far more resources and actions that it does that define it as more original than any other Christian church. Even many of the popes over time have said sorry for the many unchristian like things it has done towards Orthodoxy. Many of which has helped destroy the great churches because. Every priest makes a mistake since they are human, but the church as a whole is to blame for unjust things that the church lets it happen. As you see on the site how so many things have changed from the original church which are still kept in Orthodox Church. Even fasting and repenting has become trivial which is completely different from how it was originally. God does not change people do, and people get side tracked and let their desires determine what is right when it shows that its not. I would recommend people fine an orthodox site that has a priest email and email the priest, or go to an old priest in person to just see what they think. I personally do not care for many young priests in any sect since they show their inexperience. As for early churches persecuting you should show some links or details on what you are talking about. Their can only be one truth and to compromise would be going against Christ which many sects are against Christ anyway. --------------------------- - Christians are somewhat going. You have other Christian sects that say homosexuality is ok which goes against Christ word and they think they are doing what it right. Even Christ said not to change what he said and whoever does so is doing evil. Why should I show you exactly? Shouldn’t you look it up for yourself if you care about it enough? If you put a little effort you will find that you would want more information and then you would care to find more. If you read the other link then it might help. A true christen is by their constant deeds, and beliefs and not by the label they say they are. Another note is that the crusades were not a religious was as I stated once but a trade war and a religious monopoly. Even the pope said sorry for that as well for ransacking orthodox Christians and taking away many holy things, destroying many holy places, and weakening the holy place Constantinople to be invaded by Muslims to now be called Istanbul. This helped Catholicism spread and its other sects to come off from it. |
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d000hg Member Posts: 144 From: Durham, UK Registered: 07-27-2004 |
Firstly, all Christians have the same core beliefs to be called Christians - that Jesus was God's son sent to redeem mankind. Secondly, that article is just dire. It presents no evidence for a start. Then how do you define the original church? As the church was formed its ideas were being changed - as Paul's letters show the various churches kept having to be re-educated about things they got wrong. And until the books of the bible were selected the very 'manual' of the church was changing! |
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Dooohg About your first example that is true and I agree that if you do good then you act Christian, but many miss out on the meaning, and many other things which makes them stray away. For example the movie the passion of the Christ shows that the Catholic religion focuses on the death, but the Orthodox religion focuses on the resurrection. The Catholics fast by not eating what they like the most, the orthodox religion they do not eat meat or dairy for 40 days before Easter. The Catholic priests do not get married and get enticed every day, the orthodox priests do get married and do not get enticed as the time line on one of the links shows that the Catholics changed it. Just because you have the big picture does not mean you have to throw away the many small parts that add up to even a bigger picture as well and it’s the many small things that are important. Which is big this __________ or this _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Straying off a little will make a world of difference since if compromised once their will always be compromises to it until we do not recognize it. About your second point there are other sources and places to look that supports it. You have to look at the history which many do not know about and are not told since they do not want people to know. You have to use logic and if you think Christ is right then he knew to make “The Apostolic Succession which exists in the Orthodox Church and in the Roman Church”. The only people that have the authority to change it are the ones that have “Apostolic Succession” which a unanimous agreement from the counsel as stated before. There is plenty of evidence but not much effort by many to look for it and some think of Orthodoxy as being Jewish and they never heard of Christian Orthodoxy. The bible was written by the people that are orthodox in their language. Even historians say that the original language of the bible is still more advanced than the modern English. Everyone that knows the two languages agrees that there is a world of difference from any translated literature since no language can capture it its meaning since many words still do not exist or emphasize the meaning well. So books the King James Bible comes second. I know I am not giving a lot of details and I am refraining intentionally, since if you care to know then you will find out. It’s always up to people to decide but what would Christ want people to do? The problem is that the Christian religion is not unified and many “clones” and claiming to be the originators. I understand that others and I are not experts, but if you want to an expert answer you have to ask an expert orthodox priest that reads from the original texts. I am sure if you do you will be more than satisfied. |
bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
so the orthodox church is exactly like the "new testament" church? so i suppose you have "all things common", meaning you give everything you have and everyone of you share everything? i'm not sure on the whole "apostilic succession", but if you have apostles, or cardinals, or whatever you want to call them, do they have the fruits of an apostle? are people getting healed, demons getting cast out, mulittudes getting born again? i'm a baptist, but i know what the apostles did, and they did it by faith, through the Holy Spirit. you're starting to sound a little too catholic. i believe there's catholic's that are going to heaven, and truely follow Christ. but why do they pray to mary? why do they call a man Father(in a spiritual sense)? didn't Christ speak dead against those things? didn't paul in hebrews(7th chapter i believe), talk about how Christ was the last priest, forever after order of melchesidek(spelling?), who had neither beginning of days nor end of life. be careful what you say. i heard 2 priests on tv say that they didn't believe other churches were completely wrong, but that they didn't have the "full truth". correct me if i'm wrong, but the full truth is God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for all mankind, and rose Him up the third day to give us hope(and eternal life!)?i'm tired of the people who think one church is better than every other church, it's as simple as this, your either part of the body of Christ, or you're not. you're either for God, or against God. ------------------ www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
i believe that accordcing to the bible, the church is built on the apostles and prophets (and those in the current church with those gifts and roles), however apostolic succession is not such a biblical truth, as a tradition, and with any form of human succession, you are dealing with sinful humans that corrupt, plus there biblical evidence that God works in other ways, for example if you dismiss any protestant church because of lack of this uncontinuous 'apostlic succession', you'll have to also dismiss the apostle paul, for God called paul independantly from the norm (the 12 apostles who had direct contact with Jesus), God called and apointed paul with God's own will and sovereignity and set him to work, if we are to be strict with 'apostolic succession' then we also have to discount the churches planted by paul, but however despite the fact that paul worked independant of the other apostles for many years, actually preaching the gospel and planting churches for many years before even meeting any of the 'real' apostles, God was obviously in it, and when he did meet the apostles they verified his ministry to be of God ------------------ |
Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Its interesting that this topic should come up because I've recently been doing alot of examining of my post reformation protestant views in the light of church history and in particular looking over the views of the Orthodox church. I admit I would have liked to be able to convert to orthodox views because I have come to at which I think much of protestantism is faulty both in doctrine and in practice. However, I simply couldn't reconcile a number of their doctrines with scripture and I also have a problem with their track record or "fruit". The problem with the apostolic succession argument for the orthodox is that the catholic church and the anglican church both have valid apostolic succession as well, if it is simply counted as a direct line back to the original authority. Thus the Orthodox must and do argue that the apostolic succession of these church was broken through their error and heresy. That is a valid teaching I think, God is not bound to ordain an evil man simply because someone else foolishly laid hands on him. I was actually thinking of joining the Anglican church but the mainline Anglican Communion has fallen as well ordaining women for many years and now, in America (and soon in england probably) ordaining homosexuals. There is a section of the Anglican church was has remained true, however, called the Traditional Anglican Communion, the problem is the nearest church it has is over a hundred miles away from me. ------------------ |
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First off many have a translated Bible which has misinterpretations and edited content, and maybe that why some state some things wrong. Bennythebear Yes. They have more miracles which the Catholic Church challenged them but when they lost they did not want to say the result, which you can look for them yourself. There are many examples but one would be the holy fire that appears in Christ’s tomb during Easter on the Orthodox calendar which the other Christian sects can not disprove or get the flame. It has been taped, and eye witnessed. Do you think the heads of the other Christian sects would talk about this or the many other miracles? Obviously not, since it would hurt them a lot. I agree many are for God and as my example stated before every Christian believes in him but do not follow what he says properly since so many Christian sects turn away from Christ to let gay marriages happen, to let women be priest, and list goes on. Klumsy Simon_templar As for the other orthodox countries well you have them being invaded as well like Serbia which all the Orthodox Churches have been burned down which is over 100 within 4 years, and many Serbs are being slaughtered by Muslims for the past 100 years and is destabilized with the help other Christian sects like when the Word Wars has Catholic priests forceful conversion and who ever didn’t convert got slaughtered. Romania has been invaded as well by Muslims and has been destabilized. Russia with it’s communism that did not allow the Orthodox religion to be preached for so many decades, and with the insane rulers, and the wars. Ethiopia has invasions and climate. The original Egyptians are orthodox, but many of them have turned to be Muslim after being invaded. You notice a trend here on it being invaded by Muslims and other Christian sects helping? It goes deeper than that since you have to see who supports the spread of Islam. The history is too big to describe and you have to read it for yourself why orthodoxy is being attacked by every physically, politically, financially, and every religious side from other Christian sects, Jewish, Muslims, etc. If orthodoxy got a chance to breath then there would be big changed and Russia is strengthening up which you might see a lot from them in the future.
Also read what I said to the others. And about the Catholic Church drifting off to not be the apostolic succession is not relevant since there were many circumstances that made them break off. Even the bible as a whole was made by negotiations to see what books were true and which ones were not and the ones that decided has apostolic succession. Every one makes an error, which is why the priest voted and a whole to correct any errors of one man. You see the error with the Catholic Curch. But the Catholic Church broke apart even though it had apostolic succession it was not backed up by the others. To justify them would justify the priests that lost their vote that wanted to put in books that have not been put in the New Testament. Again you have to go to the Orthodox priest to get the official explanation but I gave you the logical explanation which you have to agree. If all 5 have apostolic succession Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople, Rome, and Alexandria; and one brakes apart, which was the Rome since they wanted to dictate over the others which as stated people fallible which is why they judged in a democracy. And 4 of the 5 apostolic successions use the democracy and out number the one fallible church since to bring balance to take away the apostolic succession. Again Christ knows best and knew how to keep his true words in many ways by knowing that apostolic succession, a democracy to make everyone equal, with miricales, and even indicating many times in the bible as I stated a few times already. If we loose faith in Christ’s methods of how to keep the true word, then we lost faith in Christ as well, which we would be looking for what is right since he failed up if we believe it, which is how I see it. The church is to educate people in the gospel and not be entertained, a new sect can not make his own interpretation. Saying that Orthodoxy lost its meaning or other things has been said without any validity and using speculation as fact is not logical and not what Christ wants. You are either speculating of reading false things that can not be backed up. You might even think that the day of Easter and Christmas are the correct days. Read the links for information and as the links show how many sects there are, then it would be a gamble to choose one sects out of over 20,000 Christian sects and not stick to the sure bet which has so many spiritual and physical support and lasts the test of time like Orthodoxy. Gambling is not allowed and gambling with Christ words if far more dangerous than money. I know this is not school but It would be nice if some people talk to an experienced Orthodox priest with questions and come back here with answers, especially Simon_templar since you should not be looking for a religion unless you talk to the people that know it best face to face, and you have to select what is right and not what caters to your preference. Everyone can believe what they want but when they choose they have to know every side of the story. Take care |
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bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
quote: one, if the other "church leaders" wouldn't talk about a miracle that actually happened, they would be the equivelant of a pharisee of Jesus time, which means they aren't Christians. if a church allows gays to hold office, they're not of God either. there are no priest anymore other than Christ, read hebrews 7th chapter. oh, and by miracles i'm talking the spiritual gifts, healings, people getting born again, families being brought back together, people forgiving people who done them wrong and the people getting saved. as i said, you are either in the body of Christ, or you're not. if you think yourself(or you denomination) better than any other part of the body you need to get your heart right with God. a house divided against itself can't stand. ------------------ www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs |
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quote: Beeny Sorry for the delay in replying. The church is a business to many priests and the activities that they do show they do not have that much faith. Anyone can come up with their own Christian sect and many do, and what they do it not right. Some of the miracles you have stated are not miracles but people doing what they are supposed to do. Also many born again Christians do not successfully change their ways. As you said a house divided against it self can’t stand and so many denominations it does not stand. Christianity would be better if it was unified like it was before the split 1000 years ago. When so many churches differ in what they say which many little things lead up to a big thing then there are problems, which even you pointed how they are not of God in what they do. I think we all should look at religious history to better understand what is going on. And the best place to start is from hearing what the originators (Christian Orthodoxy) have to say, since when you are looking for something you always have to start from the begging. I am sure many will be more than satisfied with the answers when given a chance. |
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Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Warsong, You claimed that the orthodox church has never forcibly converted people. In a sense that may be true.. in the same sense it is true of the catholic church.. the catholic church has universaly through its history condemned forced conversion. The fact remains that, in history, both the orthodox church, and the catholic church have persecuted people of differing views. In both cases this has not been limited even to unbelievers, but it has also included other christian sects. It is a historical fact that when, first the persians, and second the muslims, conquered the middle east the armenian and syrian christian communities welcomed them as liberators because they had experienced such oppression and persecution from the orthodox church. Also through its history the orthodox church has had a very anti-semetic track record. Which you yourself have displayed in your other posts. As I've said before, I've been doing alot of questioning lately of my views, of doctrine and of the church that I've been a part of, (which for the record is the "protestant evangelical charismatic" church). I personaly believe that many of the criticisms that Orthodox bring against the protestant church are valid and they raise alot of good questions. In truth, although I hold with some doctrines that would be considered protestant, I can't say much for the fruit of the protestant church that I have personaly experienced. There are a number of other things about the orthodox that give me pause as well, but they are either small, or I'm not sure about them yet, so I will leave them out. I sincerely would have liked to believe that the orthodox church was the true church, but at this point, I simply can't. There are too many things that do not match up with the scripture, and with what I know of the truth. I believe that the church is invisible, it is the fellowship of all true believers through the Holy Spirit, but I believe the church must also be visible, that is a visible body with structure and some semblance of organization. I believe God always maintains his invisible church.. his remnant.. but right now, I can't see any visible church that fits the description given in the new testament. Honestly, I don't know where thats going to lead, or what should be done about it. At this point I can only lament that it has seemingly been lost. ------------------ |
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Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
in fairness to the orthodox and warsong.. some comments on my former post. On the doctrines of venerating Icons, and praying to the saints. I have been thinking alot about these and talking to some orthodox and eastern rite catholic believers. ------------------ |
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You have to learn more to understand since you said some wrong and that does not hurt me but it does hurt you. You are assuming in some points but at least you are trying to find out the truth. The orthodox faith was started by the apostils unlike the other Christian faiths that were started by kind that wanted to divorce and kill their wives, or to get money and power. What next you will say the original wording of the New Testament is wrong? Come on. Also the apostils were mostly with the people that hold the Orthodox faith. They are the ones that put the bible together and have it in their language. You have to ask people that are experts about the orthodox faith, than the followers of the orthodox faith. You have to know how to look. If strongly recommend you talk to an expert in person. I would talk to you in person to explain things better and faster so you won’t feed your doubt on the pause time, but I do not have the authority to present everything to you. I think you will have fun asking in person and get a lot of information. But if you want some online places to ask more questions before you ask an orthodox priest try out. Also you ever hear the saying “a faith which demands nothing is worth nothing.” Christian Orthodoxy has not compromised, and asks for the same things it did for 2000 years unlike the other Christian sects that have been around less than 1000 years and give a lot of leniency. Orthodoxy has been attacked for not changed their views and you some say it has without knowing it well which is not fair to say. Like the bible says the long hard narrow path is the right one. Even though orthodoxy has been attacked by every side from Muslims, Jews, other Christians like the crusades, and others it still stands the test of time, and has been staying true to the original faith from the time of the Christ since the year 33AD. One way for others to try to prove they are right is to attack the one that is better. If you done what you should I am sure you will understand far better than now. |
Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
This may be a little off-topic, but I think that it's pretty sad with the divisions that we have between Christians. How and why has this happened? When did we break off and decide to have our own denominations? I think that the best thing we can do is to not just follow the traditions that we are taught since being children, or since receiving Christ, but we should read the Bible without any presumptions that our denomination is right and all the others are wrong. We should read it and let it say what it says. I'm not saying that I am perfect in this area, it's still something that I am working on and something that has become very obvious to me in recent weeks. We who believe in Christ and have received Him as Lord and Saviour are Christians, we are the Church. With that said I can understand differences in culture, but does that have anything to do with how new denominations keep on being founded? I am a Christian, and that's what I call myself. A Christian. Even though I do belong to an Assemblies Of God church, I don't go around thinking that it's that denomination that is the special one that has everything right, or think that I'm a true Christian because I am a member of an Assemblies of God church. I urge those of other denominations such as Roman Catholic, Luthern, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Baptist and sadly many others to do the same. Sometimes we tend to put more focus on a man founded system rather than on the one that Christ founded Himself. Jesus said, upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. I believe that the rock is Peter's statement, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." That is the foundation of the Church. The unmovable stone. God Bless,
[This message has been edited by brandon (edited March 01, 2005).] |
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Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Brandon, Your attitude is a good one to have. Unfortunately its also a somewhat rare one. There are alot of divisions within christianity, honestly, because alot of denominations have gotten things wrong, either in doctrine or in practice. That is a problem. A bigger problem is that most people would rather divide the church and condemn other believers than work together to try and heal the differences and find the truth. I started out as a pretty hardcore confirmed protestant who basicly thought that the orthodox and catholic churches were completely dead and about one step above paganism with all sorts of man made doctrines and traditions which had twisted scripture. What I eventually discovered was that many of my perceptions were founded on long held protestant prejudices and strawman arguments. The reality is that the protestant church has abandon a number of understandings and practices which were in fact the normal and standard way of things in the first church. Lets say for a moment that the Orthodox are correct, they have the true appostolic succession, which they do, they have the correct and historicaly accurate doctrines and understandings.. which for the most part they do. What have they done with these things? Have the evangelized the world? Have they made disciples of all nations.. have they brought freedom to the people under their care? Have they been a help to the poor and opressed? The clear answer to all of these questions when you look at the history of the orthodox church is no. They haven't. The Orthodox church, in fact, stands out among churches for the fact of its almost complete lack of outreach and evangelism throughout its history. The orthodox church has a history of allying itself to the state wherever it exists. This might not really be a problem (when there is a good ruler there is nothing wrong with the church supporting him), except for the fact that in many cases this has allied the church to tyrants who oppress their people (consider the middle east, bulkan, and russian history). This in a number of cases has made the church more of an opressor than a bringer of freedom and comfort. If you look in scripture you will find that the principle of appostolic succession doesn't exactly begin with the apostles. The idea of appostolic succession actually goes back into the Old Testament in which God established a succession of priesthood that was to safeguard and administer the faith and worship of Israel. this fact is recognized by the orthodox. In the new testament this apostolic succession was held by a religious group known as the pharisees. The pharisees were the mainline historical faith of Israel. They had kept the pure teachings of the Law and the prophets for generations and they held the just authority as the teachers of the congregation of Israel. All of these facts are directly stated in the New Testament. Stated by none less than Paul and Jesus himself. Both of them said that the Pharisees had the true doctrines,and that they were the teachers of Israel. The Pharisees relied upon their appostolic succession, and their historical accuracy to doctrine, just as the orthodox do. Jesus' response to them was "do not rely upon the fact that you are children of abraham (apostolic succession), I tell you the truth that God is capable of raising up from these stones children to abraham." The one deciding factor for the pharisees in God's eyes was the fruit that they produced. The pharisees served the law and had the authority, but their faith was not personal. As a result they produced no good fruit. They did not set the people free, they did not comfort the poor and opressed and they did not bring the message of God to the nations. It was for these reasons alone that they were not permitted to see the Kingdom at that time and for these reasons that they were set aside so that the Church could bring in the gentiles. The sad truth, of course, is that the protestants aren't much better on this score. In fact in some ways we're a good deal worse. I have to point out that there is a huge difference between refusing to accept false teachings, and dividing the church over traditions and non central teachings. Some churches have, and are, giving up the true faith to the point at which they can no longer be considered christian. That, however, is quite a bit different than excommunicating someone because they have a different song list or different words or order in their recitation of scripture. I have come to the conclusion that every area or branch of the church is in need of a reformation, or rather, a Restoration. I believe that this is desperately needed.. and I believe it will happen because Jesus is returning for a pure and radient bride, not a besmirched, divided, bitter bride. I just don't see how it can or rather will happen yet. ------------------ |
cyberseth Junior Member Posts: 6 From: Doncaster, UK Registered: 07-05-2002 |
You cannot say that Christians have not been faithful and lived closely to God until today. History is full of very old Christians who have had incredibly blessed and miraculous lives, even though they have been part of churches that would seem old and boring. I was watching a TV show about the top 100 #1 hits and one of them was good old "Rock Around the Clock". I found it so cheesy and "classical" to watch, yet that same song stirred riots and rebellion in young people all over the world. Interesting that now it does absolutely nothing for me and I can't see what all the fuss was about. So it is I find with Christianity, though over a much longer period of history. At a certain point in time, a group of Christians have a vision and revelation on making a difference, they have a truly personal relationship with God and they make God very "relevant" to their life, just really loving God and loving each other, the two most important things we learn from the Bible. This formula spreads widely and their new revelation and methodology gets accepted in many churches as it is so relevant for that period in history. After a period of time, culture moves on and the methodology remains the same, eventually becoming tradition, principle, and then regulation. Does this make it wrong? Now hear me, it is so important to note that there have been truly remarkable Christians in history that have been in many areas of the Christian family. It is important that you find a group of Christians that you can relate to, whether you enjoy the peaceful humility of anglicans, the lively joy of charismatic pentecostal Christians, or whatever..! But above all, the most important thing is: Love God with all your heart, soul and strength, so do all that you can to be close to him, by praising him, striving to live a righteous life, and then Love your neighbour as yourself, by being generous, caring, loving, forgiving and ever praying to be more so. Surely if we all are focused on that, and all agree that Jesus died so that all who believe in Him could have eternal life, then we can praise God together under that same banner. It is amazing how much people let their lives be affected by truly trivial matters, when the most important things are that you serve God and serve each other. ------------------ |
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Simon – You are WRONG! You have said a lot of inaccurate thing and what you say will hurt others and yourself. Do not say what you do now know well since that would go against Christ. If it was not for orthodoxy you would not have the bible since they made the bible. Some can follow only the book but it would be an insult to follow it alone without also listening to the people that made it. You say you accept the doctrine of orthodoxy but not the practice even though it has been around since the apostils. They have been the ones that change the least which they have been attacked many times for that and they demand more. Other have changed since they want a light version of religion to do less but want more. What have they done you say? I explained to you how they are so oppressed and attacked by every side and if you keep up with the news you will see how they are being attacked for their power to be taken away from the EU. Also the 2 huge lands that have been stolen from them in Palestine which is under investigation. Not to mention the pope as I stated once how the Vatican ransacked so many orthodoxy holy places and stole so many things and weaken it to be held down for over ˝ a millennium. And the Vatican will not return what it stole but says sorry. Which many can not even understand. And despite that they converted so many from the biggest nation like Russia, Serbia, Romania, Egypt, and the rest. And even now they are not allowed to preach since they get attacked like Serbia which all the orthodoxy churches have been burned down by Muslims with the help of the US which many conservatives know this is a sham. It is the others that have done little with so much that they have. Pound for pound orthodoxy has done more than the rest despite it was illegal for orthodoxy to preach for ˝ a millennium. Also let’s not forget how the Vatican with its personal army killed so many Serbs if they did not convert which they and the Protestants acted like the Muslim to forceful convent which does against Christ’s law. Or the other orthodox genocides that re not talked about in the last century. Even in both world wars how more orthodox people died before, during, and after the war which dead men can not preach. It has helped more than you know so the obviously answer is yes if you knew better. More Christian orthodox died by all those –ism like communism and capitalism than any other sect and even more eligible priests that to preach. The only way other christen sects can get more people is to not let orthodoxy get a chance to preach. It is the #1 target to the non Christian religions, and has been since 33AD to be attacked. Look at how 20 million orthodox Christian’s dies and non holocaust museum, or the first holocaust in the last century was not the Jewish one but of orthodox being slaughtered. You don’t see orthodox holocaust museums since they died the most in the war and outside of the war but it is not allowed! No other Christian sects dies as much and gotten so little recognition because there is so much vested interest in the business of Christianity to not let orthodoxy get any credit. I advise you look at your history since you missed so many crucial facts. If it was not for the church many would be in slavery still, they started revolutions to free people from Muslim oppression, but I don’t expect you to understand! People have more important things to do than preach like to survive. As for apostolic succession in the Old Testament it ended. Christ talked about it the old and understood it, and Christ gave his apostolic succession and if you deny what Christ said on that then you might as well disregard everything he said since if he is once wrong then he is totally wrong. And with that apostolic succession you have the New Testament which was made by the orthodox counsel. Christ’s approval is their but the Old Testament Christ was not around to approve hands on. Even Christ himself stated that the original orthodox people are the ones to glorify him since they have kept his words before he came since not many know this and are the only ones after. Orthodoxy still holds the original calendar for Easter which since you say you know so much about it you must know about the holy fire during Easter which only an orthodox priest can get which is the only consistent miracle which no other Christian sect can dispute and admit that they can not get the fire. They also have been requested to see who can truly bless and they purified water which did not stagnate after a month. Christ knows what will happen which is why he gave apostolic succession and his comments denying it were for the Pharisees. Orthodoxy has done what you denied and without it none of us would be here talking and they are still doing more than others eve though orthodoxy is not allowed to. It is like can not go outside and spread god’s laws if you know someone is attacking your home and your relative’s home? If you do not take care of your own business then you will be weakened to preach even more. You really have a lot to learn and you are far away forming it. You seem to compare apples with oranges and expect a caged bird to win in a race. You say a lot of thing which are inaccurate and you say things that makes it obviously that you do not know what is going on. Honestly I know you want to see the truth but you are missing a lot of critical information to your searching. You condemn orthodoxy because you do not know. Orthodoxy. The tradition you do not which to follow have been done long before Catholicism was made. A religion that asks for less is less. You can not choose what you want to follow you have to follow. Religion does not bend for people bend for religion. If religion bended all the time we would have a circus in the church. If you want to sing another service then you are ignoring the rules of religion since people should change, and not the other way around to have the church change its tune because you want it to. Some complain that it is the same and some say it changed? Dammed if you do and dammed if you done it seems like. If you deny them for the tradition then you should deny the New Testament since it comes in a package form orthodoxy Orthodoxy if the first is the longest Christian, has consistent miracles, is the most consistent than any other, is the is 1000 years older than any other, has been forced to not preach, they have been attacked from day 1, have been attacked the most, have been attacked the hardest and most recent, converted the biggest nations despite its restrictions, made the New Testament, are the ones that preserved the original old testament, they cant mistranslate since they have it in their writing since they made it, are the ones that Christ recommended and have Christ apostolic succession, had most of the apostils with them, had the councils, still stick to the traditions for 2000 the closets, and the list goes on. It surpasses every other Christian sect in so much credibility more than you know, and other Christian sect comes close to orthodoxy in what it has done and its credibility which no other can beat. You can assume and deny, but the orthodoxy is for people that know and does not and should not accept people that assume it to be right but know it to be right. Orthodoxy has proven itself, but it is people that have not proven themselves. Every church has to come back to orthodoxy and not do what it pleased like you say you want to change the song, to change the rules, to change this and that, then you have another religion. This is why we have so many sects since everyone wants to do what they want to do and they do not do what they need to do. People like your selves made the other sects, and other sects expect to get approval from orthodoxy even though they stray away and go against it? It is an insult to Christianity. |
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me." - You don't restore your broken relationship with God through christian tradition. It is done when you realize that you are a sinner, repent, and receive Christ into your heart and make Him Lord of your life. Are you suggesting that the church is the reason for orthodoxy and not the Holy Spirit? And by orthodoxy I am speaking of what the Bible says brings salvation, not cultural tradition. The Bible is the inspired Word of God, not of church leaders. Also, there are many people in this culture from many different types of backgrounds. Some people I know wouldn't step foot in a Catholic church, but they would go to a Pentecostal or Baptist church. So should they then not attend church in order to go to a more "proper" one? What matters most is Jesus. Is He the center of it all? Or is it your love for your denomination? After all, it's yours that has it all right huh? Jesus said "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." - That is how you are to worship God. - I really honor Mary as the earthly mother of God. But painting her has nothing to do with worshiping God. Worship is praising God for who He is, no matter what you are currently going through in life. I have a problem when denominations like to flaunt their doctrines as authority higher than that of the Bible. I'm not saying if someone is searching for the truth and trying to follow God's Word, but something totally different like when they claim that anyone who wants to be right with God must come through them first. Jesus Christ is my Lord and my Redeemer, a denomination is not. It is very easy to slip into making things into idols. Even your particular denomination. Actually today I was in a Christian bookstore and I realized that even there, that with the products and books I saw that it was possible to make today's "Christian Culture" into an idol! We must be careful not to put anything before God Himself, not anything.
[This message has been edited by brandon (edited April 03, 2005).] |
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Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Warsong, I'm sorry, but I do have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about. Its a matter of fact that the Eastern Orthodox church has done almost nothing in the way of evangelistic outreach since the great schizm of 1054. The Russian Orthodox church experienced some growth after that certainly. But even including that, its been well over 500 years since the orthodox had any kind of significant evangelistic outreach. This is a fact even admitted by Orthodox priests. I've seen articles written by orthodox priests addressing this very fact, they said its true that they haven't had outreach, but their work has been simply to preserve the truth. Sadly, thats not enough.. the pharisees preserved the truth as well, but they didn't produce the fruit that the truth is supposed to bring. The orthodox are in the same situation. The Orthodox church as it exists today is almost entirely ethnocentric. This is most evident in the US because this is were the ethnicities over lap. In the US every one of the Orthodox jurisdictions has representation here.. they are all seperated and have seperated heirarchy. The Orthodox church even violates its own canons and rules because of this. The canons of orthodoxy state that it can not have more than one bishop presiding over the same city. Yet in the US this rule is broken repeatedly, why? because greek orthodox won't worship with the russians, who won't worship with the arminians, who won't worship with the syrians and so on. The only orthodox church near me is in a small town, its lithuanian orthodox. It has existed for generations, consisting of only 2-3 families specificly because they don't like it when non-lithuanian people come to their church. Orthodox always make the broad claim that their churc is the one true church which has passed down the pure faith. To some extent I think they have preserved much of the pure faith.. however, it is also true that they have added to it and made their additions points of necessity that were not recognized by either the apostles or the ante-nicean church fathers. Again Hegesippus, the first church chronicler in history, writing around 170 AD (he was one not who wrote defending doctrine, but simply recorded the history and deeds of the church and the church fathers). He clearly refrences Jesus as having brothers, and differentiates them from his cousins (or other non immediate relations). He even goes into detail about the two grandson's of Jesus' brother Jude and how after suffering persecution they became leaders of the entire church specificly because they were close kin to Jesus. you talk about the liturgy being necessary and having to sing the right songs, yet not a singal church father until the time of St. Basil, 300 years after the apostles, even mentions a perscribed or necessary liturgy. The closest any early church document comes to setting forth a liturgy is the didache and all that says is, "when you take the Lord's supper, say a prayer like this..." It then goes on to list a very general generic prayer about the Lord's supper. St. Basil himself acknoledges the fact that in the 300 years previous to him, none of the church writers even mention liturgy. He claims in his writings that the reason for this is the liturgy was handed down as a secret doctrine not meant to be written down for the world to see. Now, that may be true, maybe liturgy was handed down, but St. Basil, great as he was, is not scripture. When scripture says something, I know without a doubt its true.. the church fathers, including Basil, are fallible.. they are great men, worthy of reverence even, and worthy of study, but they can be wrong. This is proven over and over in tradition by the fact that there were MANY disagreements among the fathers themselves. another such issue is infant baptism. There was no consensus among the early church fathers about infant baptism. In fact, most of them don't even mention it when they talk about baptism. There are a few who mention it in favor of it, and a few who condemn it. The practice of infant baptism didn't become universal in the church until Augustine of Hippo became its champion and used his understanding of original sin to prove infant baptism was necessary (it should be pointed out here that the Orthodox don't even accept augustine's teaching on original sin). This was 400 years after the apostles. For 400 years there was no solid agreement in the church on wether this practice was necessary or not.. yet now its a standard dogma of the orthodox church and I'm considered schizmatic or even heretical because I don't entirely accept it. On apostolic succession, I agree that this is important. God has chosen to grant and pass down authority in church leadership through a specific means, and people shouldn't cast that aside or just ignore it. Also, people can't just set themselves up and expect to have the real authority of God... one can not take authority.. it must be given. The point of all this is that the orthodox church has a much better grasp on the true tradition of the faith than most of the protestant churches do. However, the orthodox have added in, or magnified a number of doctrines which were either not stated by the apostles or the early fathers, or were not agreed upon, or were simply not considered to be of major importance. I don't have a problem with the orthodox holding these doctrines... but they don't stop there. They have taken these things and made them central issues of the orthodox faith and used them to exclude fellow believers from communion and from the church itself. ------------------ |
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Sorry for the delay in replying, I have been busy. Brandon----- Also you say to repent but every church had different ways of repenting as well which they lie to the people. You can not be forgiven if you do not regret and if you truly regret it you will not do it again and then you get forgiveness. Other churches say o you did it ok say sorry you are forgiven and come back next week to be forgiven again. It is like me hitting you and saying I am sorry and then I keep doing it every week, so will you say I regret it and that I should be forgiven even though I truly do not mean it? You are truly forgiven if you truly mean you regret it. Tradition also keeps the salvation, if you have everyone not go to church ever then what? The church is part of the religion as well. Also how can you go to heaven though Christ if you do not know it and only by name? It is like you telling me to see your friend Donald trump and I can walk up to Trump and say I know you by name and he says do you really know me? Who do you think made the bible; it was the church leaders of orthodoxy. You can not understand Christ if someone explains it to you the wrong way. If I say I know you and for people to enter you home they have to know you and I say that I know you the best and that people should pull their pants down in front of you will u accept then even though they really did not take the effort to know you? I think not.
You say they do not spread the faith but they are not allowed to. If you see that not even the news says that today is Orthodox Easter, they do not say that more Orthodox Christians died in the war, they do not say that the first genocide in the last century were orthodox people, etc. You do not seem to get that religion is a business for most and the best way for them to look good is to not let the other speak. Even the former arch bishop Iakovos dies the same week as the pope but they did not mention it a lot of at all on the news. If you knew history you would know that it has been attacked on every side from the Jews, Muslims, other Christian sects, etc and they have a vested interest not to let it be popular. And like I said the former arch bishop was pressured by so many in societies to step down and after him the other arch bishop was pressured. You can look it up. THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SPREAD WHAT THEY PREACH, if they do they get politically pressured, in the US, killed, in the Muslim nation since many priest got hanged, and in Israel they steal lands from the Orthodox church which is under investigation. If you think spreading lies it better than preserving the truth then you have some twisted logic. If the truth is not allowed to be spread then you should be thankful that the truth exists for you to look for it. If you do not care to look for it then that is your problem. If you want to help spread it go ahead. I can even give you a link from orthodoxy on how they have missionary work if you care to do it all over the world. Ethnocentric is not so the case. You can not have a Russian bishop talk in Russian to a Greek and Armenian people. You do no see it in a logical way. Would you want your church to speak Urdu? You lost the entire point of this and you seriously need to talk to a priest but you persist to act like you know it all, but you have to take the first step and be humble which that is a Christian thing to do. An Orthodox person can go to another church, like a Russian can go to a Armenian church but if they do not understand the Armenian language then what it the point in staying in? But if the services are in English they no problem. I do not know where you get your information but you seem to have a lot of distorted information, or you found some renegade churches which you should report them. Well at least you know that they preserve the religion the best, but they also have the authority to add things which the other churches do not have authority. Who do you think made the bible in the first place? If they went by your logic then you would not even have a bible, so your argument does not stand. But if you do strongly feel that they added things that you do not want then go follow the old calendar Orthodox Church since the new calendar one added. Did you know about that too? All in all your answers are at Orthodoxy if not the new then the old. If you want it old then you should also not have seats in the church since they use to all stand thought out the service. So you can not complain about that. And why are you complaining about icons? These are not things that people worship you know. Maybe you want to also not follow the bible since the church made that, and maybe you want to follow the traditions of what they did before the bible? It is good that you have questions but you are not going to every place to get the proper answer. Did you do what I suggested to ask the people on the other sites, or for you to talk to a few priests, or read up on it by understand better? You say that people are fallible and so is the bible since men made it, and it did not come down from no where, so again you might as well ignore the entire bible if you want to see it that way which many so called christens do that and say they are religious and do not follow 1 world of the bible. And yes when they made the bible they had disagreements, and even the apostils disagreed. The thing is that they used a democratic system to decide what stays and what goes. Well you have 4 choices Orthodoxy, another christen sects which is well further away and they put their own things in it, another religion, or you make your own christen sect just like the rest that did so which have plenty of followers. The same goes for transubstantiation. Even the holy fire did not start at 33AD but look what happen and now there is a new ceremony if you bother to look it up how the holy fire started which no other Christian sect can get. Again apostolic succession. Christ did not give apostolic succession to the Jews since he was not around before the Jews on each. You agree that Christ knows the future and that he is not wrong and so he said it. Also the fact that even in the bible Christ praises the people that he gave apostolic succession. Also historians verify that the people that have it are the ones that their vales were the same and Christianity has been influenced by them. I agree that it is wrong to follow bishops that are teaching falsehood but a single bishop can not dictate to the entire church and they have to unanimously agree on it just like how they unanimously agreed to put certain books in the New Testament. You say they use to it excuse fellow believes, but believes of what? Just Christ? I know many people that say that they are Christians but do the opposite of what Christianity teaches. If you let people like that dictate and to the church what to do and it has happened you see that things get messed up. When someone comes to your home they should follow rules to not be rude, and if you go to gods home you should follow the rules. You can get communion if you are orthodox and if you are from another sect and you take communion in an orthodoxy church you are insulting your church since you are saying that it’s all the same when it clearly is not. Also that Orthodox people are not allowed to go to other churches for communion for the same reason. If I make a promise to you that you have the best restraint and I say I am loyally to you and then I go eat at another restraint that is an insult. It seems you are not grasping the information well and you have to look at it in a logical way. I am afraid that you are mostly attacking than questioning which gives off a negative impact if you talked to a priest. You talk about Greeks and Jews but the News Testament is not as much a Jewish religion but more like a Greek one since there was a book that stated it but that is another topic and that is another several pages of information on why. I hope this shed some light for you to understand, and again ask many priests first hand since I have not said a lot of things which can also help you understand it. Dig deeper, you have a lot to discover. Good Luck |
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
quote: First and foremost you must compare everything that your church teaches, with that the Bible says. The church is not the final authority for Truth, God is! The Bible is God's Word!!!
quote: That is why the church is not the final authority for Truth, the Bible is! The Bible has one way of repentace. Repent in the Bible literally means to change your mind. If you repent of your sins, you decide that you are not going to do them anymore. But if you do fall and mess up again, if you truly repent then God will forgive you. If you can argue with that, then you must be perfect.
quote: Tradition does not keep salvation. The work that Christ did on the cross does. Okay,... Christianity is not religion. Christianity is the God of creation reaching down to His fallen creations who naturally hate Him, and giving them the opportunity to be His again. It is Jesus Christ saying, "I love you so much that I'd rather die than live without you" -Rick Warren. Christianity is a personal relationship between the Christian, and Jesus Christ. In personal relationships you personally know the person whom you're in the relationship with. That is much more than empty religion. Religion is dead, but Jesus Christ is alive and well! Oh yeah, and every Word of the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Over 40 authors whom lived over a span of some 1500 years had a part in writing it, and they were from many different backgrounds as well. The Bible is a work of God. He may have used church leaders to put it into the form we have today, but the Words are His!
quote: Well, the Bible doesn't explain Christ the wrong way, but many cults and false religions do, because they like to take scripture out of context and make it say what it isn't really saying. If someone wants to know Christ then He will not keep them from knowing Him, even if the person who tried to explain the Gospel to them messed up some. No one can come to God unless God draws them first. And also there is one mediator between God and mankind, and that person is Jesus Christ. If a person is really interested in knowing Jesus for himself\herself, then nothing... no one on this planet or even the craziest demon in hell can stop him\her. If they really want to know, then they will find out. Here is a story I heard once, I may have it mixed up some, but the overall theme is still right. I heard a story of a guy who was an atheist his whole life, and he had never read the Bible. He was in a war, and had been captured. One day while walking around in the concentration camp, he stumbled across a torn piece of paper. He picked it up, and it read: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." And there, he cried, and asked the God that He did not know for repentance... and there he received Jesus Christ into his life and was saved.
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[This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 02, 2005).] |
CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
I must say I'm a tad dissapointed. Although I haven't done a complete reading of this thread, I wonder about it, so I'm going to write . . . First of all, the church I belong to has the utmost respect for orthodoxy. We even boast that most of our beliefs are orthodox. Second, I fear that most of the arguing for a "churh," even one with a strong history, is meaningless. Only God knows who the believers and unbelievers truly are. The true Christian church is invisible, and is not limited to any particular religion, sect, group, or otherwise. Physical, earth bound churches are merely a convenience to allow us to worship with those who share our beliefs, and to allow us to partake in the holy sacraments and other church stuff. I do not believe that dicrediting other churches is in anybody's best interests, especially when there are many that do, in fact, adhere to orthodox beliefs. Yes, it is true tht the church has not and will not fail. I do not take that to mean that any one particular named group is responsible, nor do I believe that only one particular named group/church/religion/sect/whatever is the only group that preaches God's Word. While I do see the history as being important, interesting, and definitely worthy of much study, I do not see it as being the only way. Indeed, it cannot, for God's Word is the only way. History is important, yes, but not vital.
quote: That much is true. However, the truth is not found in any particular church or group; it is found only in Christ himself: warsong - you talk on and on and on about aposolic succession - what exactly is the purpose of aposolic succession? And why are we arguing about all this stuff anyways? ------------------ Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here |
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Brandon The bible is god’s word and the Orthodox Church were the ones that wrote and made the bible with the Apostils which they help make the Orthodox Church as well. The church is there to help you explain the bible since they wrote it, and they know the original language which you can not read and many other Christian sects interpret it wrong. The closest translation to the original is the KJV bible and that is also not perfect. But the Orthodox Church has come out with an official translation which you can get on orthodox sites. And still even if you do get it you are not an expert to interpret how you see fit. Some take the part about fornication as a sin as many different meaning which is why you have gays saying that the Bible does not talk about gays. The church is not dead since Christ and the apostils wanted and help make the church. People are so far off on Christianity that they interpret how they see fit to suit their lives or beliefs and have lost faith in what Christ wanted. You can not accept one thing that Christ said and reject everything else. If you are going to reject one then you might as well reject all since there is no gray line to say you rejecting what Christ wants a little to a lot you just reject. You say the bible doesn’t explain Christ the wrong way, and many false religion do. But they are derived by people and even you can at times take it out of context which in my opinion you did just now. If you want to follow what Christ said to the word then you have to also agree with apostolic succession, if not then you are also picking and choosing again for things to cater to your wants. You have a lot to learn and you should be like Simon Templar to try and look at history which is a good start. Ever hear of the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. When we think we know what is going on that is the best indicator that we do not. In what way say even an atheist can be better than a Christian as well but that does not mean that you should be an atheist. It is not about discrediting others it is about presenting the facts which will discredit others at times. It is not about who is wrong but what is right. The things you say are also used by people that want to destroy Christianity to break it part bit by bit to tell people you do not need history, you do not need churchy, you do not need worship, you do not need the bible which many christens are staring to say I have found, and then you do not need Christ and what a wonderful way to convert to atheism, nihilism, Satanism, Judaism, Muslim, etc. Ever hear of the phrase divide and conquer? This is what is happening to the church. Also the notion that all Christian sects are the same is not true since it is like mixing every type of meat good and bad and it all becomes tainted. Taking the easy simple path is not what Christ wanted us to take and things are not as simple as many have been persuaded to see it. People fail not the church. So many Christian sects you can not say they are all good. Since someone can make a Christian sect and put in many silly things that contradict with Christ’s teachings. One trick is to see how the foundation of the church is, since if the foundation to something is bad then the rest is bad. You can not build a home on a bad foundation since the entire home will be in danger and the people in it. If it was not for preserving the traditions, history, and the rest we would not have Christianity. Also you can not interpret how you want to see some quotes to means that Christ is the only way meaning that the church is nothing. Christ knew that a church was needed and without the church against you would not have Christianity. If I came up with my own christen religion you can not be saved to believe in Christ and not do what is right which I have stated. Read up about apostolic succession which I explained it and I posted a link about it. Who says we are arguing? We are explaining and learning. Look at how much Simon Templar has learned, but he still is not paying attention as well since I have to explain to him multiple times. Well I guess to remember something it has to be explained multiple times. |
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
quote: So are you saying that Job and Moses were part of the Orthodox Church too? How about Daniel and King David? Ever heard of the Dead Sea scrolls? I'm sorry, but how on earth do you know that I don't know Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek? How do you know that I can't read the original languages of the Bible?
quote: I do agree that many people take the Bible and quote scripture out of context to suit their own preconceived ideas and philosophies,.. mainly to cover their own sin. The heart is deceitful above all things, and we can easily deceive ourselves to believe what we want to believe. That's why it's so important to only hold God's word to being the absolute moral standard, and unfailable Word of God. I don't care how much you respect your priest\pastor and your church, you should compare what they say to what God's word says.
quote: I never said that the church was dead, I said religion is dead, the church is not a religion. The church is the group of believers who have asked God to forgive them for their sins, and have received Jesus into their hearts, and live for Him. I totally accept everything that Christ did and said. What are you saying that I have rejected?
quote: Please explain... what have I just taken out of context?
quote: I've never read anything in Scripture about agreeing apostolic succession. It sounds to me more like a tradition, and less like a requirement for salvation.
quote: Yeah, that saying is half true, because that road is also paved with the rejection of Christ. The Bible says, "Whoever will confess with his mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in his heart that God raised Him from the dead, will be saved." Also I think you should take your own advice. Check in the mirror too, you might find a couple of logs in one of your eyes. Maybe in both... and perhaps some earplugs in your ears. Maybe a good dose of pride and self-righteousness in your heart as well...
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
(I've been silent long enough on this...) Isn't the majority of New Testament scripture proof that the early churches had trouble with doctrine? Everything from Romans through Jude - and arguably the first few chapters of Revelation - discusses everything from serious doctrinal errors to minor confusion over basically petty issues. What makes anyone think these problems have been completely resolved over the centuries??? Hello...can anybody see what's going on here in this discussion alone??? Warsong, you started this discussion. Why? What has been your agenda? The historical accuracy of Christian-based religion (I use that term loosely to include so-called Christian cults along side of the other religions collectively labeled Christianity) is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. What matters is the truth of God given us through His son Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit. The worship of church leaders or certain other historically religious figures, and any or all of their accomplishments, is vanity and a sad misappropriation of glory meant for God. Would it also be equally acceptable and proper conduct to worship and pray to all of God's creation? What separates the worship of man-made saints and that of trees? animals? angels? Where is righteousness found in any of those? And for the record, the original Christian religion was Judaism. When Jesus came and taught all he taught, he put Judaism back on track with what it was all about. The problem was that the majority of the Jews rejected that, which is why they still practice (if they still practice) the old covenant. I would argue the closest thing today to the original church is Messianic Judaism. If you want to know more about it, check out these sites: [This message has been edited by nfektious (edited May 05, 2005).] |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
quote: Well, I am of the belief that the authors of the Bible were inspired by God.
quote: This is where we differ. Yes, I agree the original language is important, and yes,if an interpretation is in doubt it is good to go back to the original language. However, I am of the belief that no humans, save for Jesus Christ himself, are infalliable. Therefore, my church has taken a different approach when interpreting the Bible: When in doubt, refer to the Bible itself (preferably in the original language - we have interlinear bibles and concordances for that purpose), not to other humans. That's it, that's how my church believes the Bible should be interpreted. I myself carry a self-study Bible so I have cross references to other passages to make things easier.
quote: Do you care to list references - chapters, verses?
quote: If you have facts, by all means present them.
quote: Oh, you explained and linked your little heart out, yes, and I agree it is a wonderful thing, yes, but how important is it to being saved? ------------------ 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Hmm. [This message has been edited by nfektious (edited May 05, 2005).] |
CoolJ Member Posts: 354 From: ny Registered: 07-11-2004 |
quote: This is a very bold statement. Not changed at all? REALLY?! I have to confess that I know very little *nothing* about the Orthodox Church. But this has got me interested about learning more about it! I've (personally) encountered very strange beliefs among groups that claim this. Here's some of the beliefs: Thankfully God gave us the Bible to know the truth on these matters! I'm not dissing the Orthodox Church (I don't have denomination I can call home, but if I like the Orthodox Church and the beliefs are true to what the Bible teaches, maybe I'll enjoying knowing I can join a denomination that is true to the Bible and doesn't try to add crazy stuff to it or take away from it!) |
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CoolJ Member Posts: 354 From: ny Registered: 07-11-2004 |
So far I like what I am reading about the Orthodox Church: http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7062.asp I agree with most everything: The only part I am not sure about is the Euchrist, Sacraments, Icons, and Tradition. But I'll continue to read through the links at the bottom of the page. |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
i agree that it is much good in the orthodox church, that many protestants would write off without even considering anything, and that we have lost some important truths because of that, However i don't believe the orthodox church as an organisation is the "sole" or major representation of the body of Christ on earth. It does have errors like other churches, it has changed ALOT since 100 a.d (not that the early early churches didn't have problems in the first place, half of the epistles are correcting heresy within the early church).. I believe that there is NOT an unbroken history of GOdly apostolic succession within the church, and documented cases of unGodly leadership within it, including appointment of these apostolic succession of ungodly men, by secular powers. end of story. but i won't wash the baby out with the bathwater, i rejoice in what the Lord has done through the orthodox church over history, and i strive for "orthodox doctrine as far as biblicalness is concerned", however i won't put on rose tinted glasses, trying to find it as a system that i could feel that i was in teh "Right" church, and everything is OK just being in that system. I'm glad that i'm part of the CHurch (in Jesus's sense) and that the church won't fail , and will and is doing God's will on earth.. I do loathe the fact that the church (in the human sense) is so full of apostasy left right and centre, and that every denomination has blind spots (even huge men of GOd, living the life, walking the walk, loving and serving GOd, yet disagreeing in some major areas), all these things concern me, and i just wish there was the 100% right "church" i could join, a nice boxed religion with all questions answered, and everything laid out plainly to follow , but i know that i cannot find that, however GOd's grace is sufficent ------------------ |
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Ok it seems many say the same things so if you think I did not answer just scroll up and the rest of the post to get answer. Also I gave you advice on how to get more answers. If you want to know more then you will try to learn more about history. **********Also CoolJ posted a good link that has a lot of information.  Also sorry for the typos that the post will have. Brandon Yes we should compare what Christ said, but you should not do so without asking the priest about the issue to know it better because they went to school for it. You would not want to open a medical book and operate on a person; you would consult a doctor since they got the education to deal with it. And your soul is more important than your body so why gamble when gamble is a sin as well? The odds that the average person has the right christen sect is also a gamble and people have to look, just like what Simon Templar is doing. What are you saying that religion is dead? You are a Christian and that is your religion so I assume, and maybe you are an evangelical since they seem to not care about religion and only follow the bible. I seriously think you should talk to Simon Templar, go to a link, or talk to the people I mentioned. You seem like a shoot that went astray from the heard and that wolfs might get you, so watch out. Out of contest was the way you interpreted it so it seems. You say that the bible doesn�t explain Christ the wrong ay but false religions do and those are made by people like you and me. You take Christ out of context to think that since you are human and you make errors just like those people that make their own religion, but in your opinion religion is dead which you seem to be affected by the many christen sects which hurt the religion. But that is my opinion, and I think you should look into it privately with someone that knows better like a priest. You should read up on apostolic succession to find out more. Remember the saying that goes like just when you think you know only shows that you truly do not know. You can not base your entire religion on the bible (New Testament) since the Orthodox priests did not put everything in it. Christ said it which you missed it but I agree he did not say the exact word apostolic succession but I could be wrong since I can not read Ancient Greek, you should look at history where the most of the apostils spent their lives and preached, apostils were, who made the New Testament and in what manner, and more. You really have to read up about it more because I can not sit here explaining it all. Already this thread has about 30 pages of information and if you really want to know then you should research it but I gave you enough direction on where to look. It is like I say the answer is in the puzzle pieces I give you and u want me to fix the puzzle for you as well, and Christianity take effort if we just sit their just being fed information then we are no better than any other religious person that is a Satanist, atheist, etc. The saying was from that guy Billy Graham I think. But you can not say u believe in Christ and start having a crusade against others and do the opposite what Christ says. You can not just talk the talk you have to walk the walk. You should not follow the bible since the church made it not Christ. Maybe you want to follow the Muslim religion as well since they say they have things that Christ said which the bible doesn�t have. You say we need the church but other christen sects do not have churches they have communities. Would you say that a person tomorrow says he wants to make his own Christian religion and makes his own church and strays away from Christ on many points would it be a holy church? If I make you a gun made out of wax and you believe that it can protect you then you will be in trouble. The point is that the original church which would not be there if it was not a religion would not have given you the bible even though you follow it which made. You do not have proof that Christ said those things, but you have faith, you do not have proof that you can trust the priests in the church even thought the apostils trusted them, and they trusted the other priests that came to power, and the others, and so on. I agree that you can not practice since and believe because would u sin if you see Christ in front of you? Well not most likely. You believe in Christ, and Christ believed in his apostils and they the priest, and so on. You do need �the church� and the religion is even though you do not want. You can not know Christ truthfully if you do not know history, and you can not maintain the religion if people are given the opportunity to do less than more for god. You would not have Christianity if it was not for them and you reject it. I agree that we should look at Christ but many do not know him and you see other Christian sects, and people that do not follow the church properly that have fallen away and assume that Christ said something else. You have women priests which you almost seem to reject that tradition that men should be priests since you are against tradition, you are against religion and so people will interpret what they want and say that the bible thinks that gays are ok. If the people are weak then the church is weak and if the church is weak then they can not give you help and you will be alone with no guidance, and you will have government editing the bible to take out what it wants without the church defending it. If you want to divide it and let other conquered it then that is your view, but Christianity says logical things and to not think things logically will hurt it. There is a reason why thing are for 2000 years and to say naaa I go my own way and disregard religion then you are also walking on a thin wire with no safety rope, but the illusion that you are safe for the time being. Ok I took the time to reply which is a lot and you guys should read the links or reason what I posted before they give you links that answer your questions. [This message has been edited by warsong (edited May 05, 2005).] |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
quote: I agree with your statement, but I fail to see the relevance.
quote: You are being vague. Yes, the people who wrote the NT were Orthodox by your definition; however, I fail to see how this means that all Orthodox priests have such authority.
quote: I think the biblical passages are clear, and the Bible stands on its own. The people who "interpret" differently are in contradiction with the Bible's teachings.
quote: I did, but I remain unconvinced as to its relavance. And I think I would remain unconvinced if I were to talk to a priest also.
quote: I have the utmost respect for the Orthodox church - as I have stated, I share many of their beliefs. Indeed, my church uses the Nicene Creed much as the Orthodox church does. However, do not confuse respect with total agreement.
quote: I have looked, but I did not find satisfactory answers. ------------------ 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. [This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited May 06, 2005).] |
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Sheesh dude, come on you have a search thing on the link that coolj posted so dont be lazy. If you say you looked then you must have read this about apostolic succession. "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ... That which we have seen and heard we declare unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:1-3). The ministry of the Apostles was guided and blessed, and they were aware of this. They felt the presence of Christ and the companionship of the Holy Spirit in every step and turn of their work. Also, they were aware of their appointment. They were not presenting themselves, but were representing the Lord as Prophet, Priest and King, with authority and effectiveness. They appointed their successors and thus established the special priesthood of the Church. In the Orthodox Church there is no ordination of deacon, priest and bishop without referring to theApostles through the lists of names of predecessors. Thus, the Apostolic succession is very important not only for the teaching of the Church, but also for its sanctification. It is accepted in the Orthodox Church that the bishops of the Church are the successors to the Apostles. http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7065.asp Yet the absolute presupposition for such recognition of the ministry of other Christian communities is that these communities believe in the sacramental nature of the ordained ministry as it is understood by the Orthodox Church, and that their ministries are the outcome of a continuous, linear apostolic succession. Generally, they stated, the Orthodox Church cannot move to recognize the ministry and the sacraments of these communities without their prior commitment to the recovery of the unity of the one Church. |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
This space reserved for my reply . . . This may take some time, as I have much material to cover . . . In the meantime: Here are some sources I may use: Glenn Miller, does a lot of research into difficult questions about Christianity. James Patrick Holding, also does research and apologetics, watch out, though, he likes to use sarcasm . . . The LCMS, my home synod. I share almost all of their beliefs. The Bible, of course. I will be back with my reply soon, I hope . . . ------------------ 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. [This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited May 06, 2005).] |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Warsong stated to me:quote:My previous response came as a direct result of looking at the information you provided. Your insults and the aggravation you relay in your posts as a result of repeating yourself do not aid you in your argument. Furthermore, I don't know how you can come to any true conclusion as to what I think about Christ. All the things I have posted on this website equate to very little information about myself and what I believe. You apparently suffer from an equal lack of information. quote:Interesting. So what is wrong with the Old Testament that has to be corrected with the New Testament? And how do you know the limits of what is wrong? Seems like the only mistakes are those that apply to the validity/invalidity of what the current argument is. For the record, let's see what scripture says about religion, in God's eyes: The first part is easy; the latter...seems there's the rub. And this is just being religious, not righteous as those who believe and follow Christ are to be. Furthermore, I think you need to investigate that passage of scripture again. There were several groups of people present at the time Jesus spoke those words you quoted (from John 8:44): The Pharisees, the scribes, Jews - both unbelieving and believing, and arguably the disciples. quote:Which is worse: lacking information or having it and misunderstanding it/abusing it? Where did I express Christ to be a bigot? Are you reading my thoughts again or something? Check your psychic tuner, because you are grossly mistaken. You can ridicule me all you want to, but don't attribute me with lies and blasphemy when I have said nothing of the sort. quote: I am more aware of world events than you think I am. What you apparently don't grasp is that political issues are superficial - a means to an end - the motivation of which originates in the spiritual. By the way, if you know of a single, unbiased, accurate and purely truthful news organization, please share that information with all of us. |
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
warsong: I do agree with much of what the Orthodox Church says. Actually, they sound quite different than you do. But I don't agree with some things such as the physical visible Orthodox Church being the one true Church. The one true Church is not a physical building or a denomination that practices different religious rituals. The members of the true church are the true believers in Christ. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was not a commandment given for personal revenge. It was given to the Nation of Israel. There has to be some type of legal system to maintain order. And no, I will not become a Muslim or practice Judaism, shame on you for suggesting that I should. You should be pointing people to Jesus Christ by your life, and by your words. From what I can see, you are not doing that. Yes I agree that guidance is needed, but the Holy Spirit is the One who does that, I trust God more than I do anyone just because they are a priest. Just look at the horrible sexual sins uncovered in the Roman Catholic Church! Just because someone has gone to school and learned about the Christian Religion doesn't mean that they actually believe. And if they do believe, it doesn't mean that they are perfect and omniscient either. I'm sure that even in the Orthodox church denomination there will be hypocrites and false prophets. You can't just believe anything that a priest says just because of his position. He isn't perfect! Nothing that he does makes him more righteous in Gods eyes than any other Christian. At calvary the ground is level.
quote: And tell me ... what makes one person average or above average in God's eyes? Are you saying that I'm gambling with my soul because I pray to God Himself instead of consulting a priest? Jesus said, "I am the way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by me." You are saying "The Orthodox Church is the way, the truth, the life, no one comes to Jesus, but by it!" There is One Mediator between God and man, and that person is Jesus Christ. I read some Orthodox Christians pray to Mary, the mother of Christ. But think of this... she isn't omnipotent or omnipresent. What makes you think that she can hear the millions of different prayers individually? God has given us access to the Throne Room, we can go directly to the Father through Christ because of what He did on the cross for us. Only God can meet all of our needs. And in Jesus He has made a way for all who seek Him to come to Him personally, not through any other human being. Whether they be dead or alive.
quote: Okay, I should rephrase my position on religion: Religion not centered and focused on Jesus Christ is dead and worthless. It seems like you are more interested in tradition and history than you are with people who are lost. It seems like you are more interested in tradition and history than you are with the actual experience of Jesus Christ in people hearts and lives. You stress rules for things that are destined to perish anyway, "don't taste, don't handle, don't touch!" Don't name pets this or that! It seems like you base Salvation on a list of Do and Don't. You seem more interested in these things than you are in the saving power of Jesus Christ! I say this because you talk about them all the time. I've never even seen you say anything about how Jesus can set people free if they believe in Him. I've never seen anything like that come from you. Not anything remotely close. Oh and don't worry... the big bad wolf won't get me. I belong to the King, and am safe in His arms. Also, 2 Peter 1:20 has nothing to do with the church or priest being the only ones who can interpret Scripture. It was actually saying that all prophecy comes from God and not man, it says nothing about the Church here. God is the author of the Bible, and He is the Interpreter. When reading the Bible you should ask God for discernment and for His Truth, why would he turn you down? If you can't understand something then of course it is good to go to someone who is wiser or more experienced in the subject, but you should consult God in the matter first and afterwards. Have you even prayed to God? Can you say Abba, Father to Him? Or do you think that He's a distant God far away that doesn't have time for you? And umm... I try my best to walk the walk, although I have failed at times, I rely on God for my strength. He knows my heart and my motives. He knows what I'll do today, tomorrow, and even throughout eternity. You know what's really cool? Warsong doesn't have a heaven or hell to put me in. I base my faith in Christ from the Bible yes, not from priests.
quote: Why are you trying to take away from the work that Christ did? He is Lord and Sovereign over everything, so yes, He did actually make the Bible and everything else in this universe for that matter. Everything that is good comes from His Glorious Hand. He orchestrates everything.. not an atom in this universe performs a single operation without his consent nor will it ever. By His power, Jesus Christ holds together every atom in the entire universe. And for the last time, NO! I will NOT become a Muslim, so stop suggesting that I should! (The nerve!) I don't agree with false teaching. The Bible is very clear on what it means. I haven't said that Christ has said anything that isn't in the Bible. If you think so then show me exactly where I have. I however did say that believers in Christ need each other. If you truly believe in Christ, then you are in the church. Am I wrong? If someone believes in Christ and they aren't in the Church then were exactly are they? Please show this to me with Scripture and not with an attempt at speaking in parables. There will come an accounting day when every Christian will stand before Christ, some will receive rewards, and others rewards will be burned up. And not even the word of your priest will be able to change Christ's mind. Be sure that you are really following God's intention and not just the religion that you were taught by men. You don't need to be a history scholar to know Christ truthfully. The Bible is enough. Once someone repents and receives Christ into their lives then I think that they should certainly join a Bible believing church that worships Jesus Christ and hold only God and His Word to the standard of Infallibility. I do agree that it is good and indeed worthwhile to know your history. And yes, I am against religion that is not centered on Christ. Jesus said that the Father seeks those who worship Him in spirit and in truth... not in ritual and self-righteousness.
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bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
i wish denominations never existed. i wish we all, "all" being the body of Christ(the church), believed the truth, and nothing but the truth, but we don't, and i would almost say every denomination has something in their doctrine that is totally wrong. as for the "priest" thing, read the 7th chapter of hebrews. Christ was and is the final priest, after offering His own body for sacrifice of our sins. it's deadly and foolish thing to leave your soul in the hands of another sinful man. i'm just taking Jesus at His word, the whole part about us being able to go to The Father(God, not some guy in a robe) through Him, also take heed when Christ said call no man on this earth father(in a spiritual since). sounds like you need personal encounter with Christ, i gaurentee you'll never be the same feller(fellow in a kentucky accent  ). ------------------ proverbs 25:7 www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs |
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
quote: I know I'm way off-topic. But that reminded me. I heard from someone earlier this week that the word Pope actually means Papa, or Father, so when people say The Pope they are actually saying The Father! Just thought that it was kind of interesting. ------------------ |
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bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
i've heard to him refered to as "the holy father" ...umm...he's not my dad in the fleshly since, and he's certainly not my spiritual dad, and he' no holier than any other Christian, assuming he is a Christian. ------------------ proverbs 25:7 www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs |
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Nfektious And you think you know more? Lol You say silly things which is I said those things. Honestly you can hurt yourself from what you assume. The site you sent was completely silly. So you think the Old Testament is right to say an eye for an eye? You think you know better than priests and that is your problem, and you want to define everything it says to how you see it and again that is your problem. Read up more since you have a lot to learn. I can quote you some good ones but what is the point. You can say you are religion but all the sins in the world that you do can not be repented by you just saying sorry every time you sin. If you want to gamble go ahead but that is a sin too. The same with your quote but there are many things that relate to the one I showed you. Look it up. Well many Jews say he is which is why they want to edit or ban the bible and you as if do not want to see how it is being attacked, so if you go by how they view it then you are, and if you do not see it their way then you are not a bigot. A good way to see news is for all of us to use our brain and not take what is given to us. Always be skeptical even to extreme cases since that is how propaganda works the best to make people believe that something so extreme can not be wrong so you have to question even that. You have to know history and the motives. Jews said they want everyone out of Israel and manipulating to take 2 big parts of land from the church is necessary since no one in the world would sell that land is something is going on. But if you want a better news source try the Herald tribune, stay away from news that have a vested interest like the US news organizations, and see different sources to deduct your view. When politics and church are involved watch out for the bigger crooks, the politicians. I am kidding about you converting to the and eye for an eye religions, but you seem to almost verify them in a way. Well the Muslim religion says you do not need to talk to a priest to get forgiveness you can just say god forgive me and then go on your way for Islamic jihad. You can not do that in Christianity as easily. You have to trust a priest more than yourself but you still have to use your head, you can not do it alone which is why u have priest, and they can not do it alone which is why they have the bible and the rest. Don’t expect to think you can be at the bottom of the pyramid and at the top at the same time of authority and knowledge of religious matters, so we should be humble. As for the roman catholic church they let gays in and they do not do anything, they attacked and killed many orthodox Christians in the word wars and in the crusaded that even the Pope John Paul said sorry for attacking and stealing which they will not return what they stole. As it seems the best (the pope) is the worst since they know better but they do no want to drop it since the roman church is a business and has been from day one. They always say sorry to the orthodox church even though they helped weaken it to get invaded my the Muslims which they were armed with the help of Jews which they admit and say sorry but still attack orthodoxy as I mentioned before. Since Orthodoxy is the #1 target that has got the most damage than any other from the Other Christian sects, from Judaism, and Muslims. The best way for others to look good is to attack what is onto and when 3 of the most powerful attack it then it is impossible, but many are amazed that it is still around and still has power which anyone else with that kind of attack would have been wiped out. Orthodoxy had been attacked non stop and they have gotten more genocides which most ignore. If the Jewish, Muslim, or other Christian sects have been attacked you would hear about it, but over 100 churches have been burned and genocide going on to them in this century less than 5 years but never a peep on TV. Then you have people like Simon Templar saying why the church doesn’t do missionary with what ashes and everyone attacking it. Everyone has a vested interest to not show it in the light since it would make them look bad and they will loose a lot of power. Most never hear about it and when it is shown then it is considered another church which is moronic on multiple levels. You can not get closer to Christianity by choosing what is far away from the original. If is like saying to know Christ by not talking to the apostils but to some guy on the other side of the world that assume what Christ knows. Ha you can lead a house to water but it had to decide to drink. To go by Jesus you are interpreting it in your own words and you also do not want to give another suggestion even though you are not a priest or have the extensive knowledge to as them to go to many years of schooling. Now what is the logical thing to do? Just because some Orthodox Christians pray to Marry does not mean Orthodoxy says that they should, so stop the useless things. You know you can be also lost even if you believe in Christ. You can not do what you please and say you believe. If you say you go with what Christ said then you should also go with what he wanted to have the Christian religion and the church. If you think you can be saved by doing every sin then go do it I am not stopping you but don’t drag other with you. You ignore the facts that Christianity would not be where it is without what I have mentioned but you want to throw it away. Keep striping Christianity and you will end up with nothing in the end. If you like to make your own brand of Christianity then good for you but again do not bring others down with you. You seem more interesting by nit picking and you choose what you want as if religion has options for you to choose for you to say that you like the part about do not kill, but you don’t like about now being drunk is a sin, or gambling so you will take your chances since you made the religion like a super market where you see many things but you do not want to do most of them since you are not that dedicated or you find it worthless since your opinion and lack of information is batter than the priests that have been authorized by the apostils which you seem to ignore that part of the bible which I quotes. If you want to ignore things then keep ignoring until you are satisfied but do not call yourself Christian, maybe say you are spiritual and that you believe in Christ. Anything else you want to interpret the way you want to? You can not be free by just believing in him. The devil believes that there is Jesus as well but will he be set free? To believe is one thing to practice what you believe is another. You can tell me that I can trust you to give a message to someone, but the point is that you have to follow through and do it to than just say it. Are you giving people false home? Tell them to believe and they will be saved without doing anything but for them to sit on their asses? A religion that demands less is less, and orthodoxy demands more and is more. You know that you have to take the long hand narrow road. You can not tell people to just believe and let them take the wide short road to deceive them to think they are saved. If you look at Christianity many of the things say come from the ancient Greek philosophers and philosophy is logical. So think logically about it and don’t stop searching or giving me silly questions that are not true since we both know they are not. Who is talking about prophecy? Again stop making up new things that do not relate and you are interpreting it wrong again or at least you are talking about something else. Also are you saying Christ did not want to make a church? You think he said to the apostils to write a book with the orthodox people and a print it out and to not mention the church or religion? Sheesh without the counsel you would have no bible you have to give credit to them but you disregard them and say no need for them it seems. And you say to consult god first and does god talk to you? This is what others like pat Robertson or Farwell say they do. Go pray to god to get holy fire and when you can do what the church does then you are right but until then keep looking for answers because you think you are better than priest and that pride is what is keeping you way which is also against Christianity but you might not pick that too since you want to choose what you want to believe it seems. I am not saying to ask one priest but ask many look for answered question, so don’t be lazy but be humble. Why are you trying to take away what Christ did? He also made the church and would not leave you alone without their being truth for you to go to get his word. If you believe in Christ you are heading to the right general direction but there are many roads so do not sit down in the middle of the road and say you found the end. So to a degree you are right but you are wrong since not all that believe can be saved since they truly do not believe since they do not practice what they preach, and I wrong? Look at the Crusades how they went to war for God but killed the Christian orthodox, stole from the, and weaken them to be slaves now are all those invades heavenly? Please let’s not call mud water drinking water. As for me to quote you exactly I did not memories the bible, and you seem to ignore other rules which I stated. Reread everything and ask yourself what it meant and look it up on the site if you need to know, If you really tried looking and you can not find then come back with sillier question. Do the math and you will get it, but you are not even mentioning the facts that I stated and walk around them and do not want to take the facts into account. Well I am sorry for saying a lot and that maybe you missed it but try again and think about it. At least you are learning new things that you did not know before. The bible is not enough. And there is no self righteousness. If you strongly believe in your argument send an email to the people on the site that coolj posted and see what they say. Can you compete with a priest or will your boundless knowledge surpass his? This would be funny to see, tell me what the reply would be. ========================= = = |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
I am going to go head on with you now, for i believe from observation (whether wrong or right) that you don't hold respect of the people her (as people rather than just hteir ideas and beliefs), as people made and passionately loved by Godquote: Jesus said that if you call somebody a fool, you are in danger of the fires of hell.
quote: this is exactly the attitude of many here, who when looking at the history of the modern orthodox church can see clearly places where it have diverted from the orthdhox teachings of Christ himself, and actually fallen into the traps that Christ and the Apostle paul clearly warn about in the revelled word of God - the bible. RE the jews, it seems to me, maybe i am wrong, that you are incredibly jealous of the jews- and hte attention they get etc, even possiblly hateful? rather than loving them with a huge desire for them to recieved the gospel. Remember Jesus and all the first apostles were all Jewish.
quote: this has been a big problem in the history of the orthodox church, where it has often bowed down and been manipulated by the state of the day, even to the point of apostolic succession being hijacked by(well given to) the state and ungodly, men without Christ being appointed.
quote: you are not a family if you are born. yet you are born into a family. When you believe , repent, and turn to Christ etc, you are born again, born into the family called the 'church', which is the body of Christ, Christs bride. In most christian denominations there are people who are part of the body of Christ - the church, despite their denominations blind spots etc, as well as in all denominations there are those who are just nominal, not christians , and those who would be considered "anti-christian"
quote: i think we ALL here agree with this that we should not bend and change what doctrine is ORTHODOX in christianity, and we agree that throughout a whole variety of "churches" there is apostasy, and terrible things like you say - gay priests etc.. but the sad thing is the orthodox church is not exempt from this.. they are not true to their name - orthodox, for in fact some original truths have been adapted and interpeted different from the beginning, and some things that are just traditions have been elevated to the same level (or beyond) of the words of Jesus. To go by Jesus you are interpreting it in your own words and you also do not want to give another suggestion even though you are not a priest or have the extensive knowledge to as them to go to many years of schooling. Now what is the logical thing to do?
quote: do the orthodox apostles carry out their apostolic responsibility to correct their churches members and lead them in truth? if not, then the current apostolic succession is a fraud, and one could (and maybe should) practice ORTHODOXY (in comparision to the orthodox church) seperately.
quote: we mostly agree, as the word "believe" isn't a watered down week one like in English, but the fact is we believe in orthodoxy as revelled in the bible, by God who carefully preserved his word (thankfully using his servants who would be regarded as the early orthodox church), not the orthodox church organisation.
quote: one could say similar to you, if you want to force the focus on christians onto a historical sytem filled with traditions - good and bad, some truths others have lost, but some heresies others have shed, if you want to force people into focusing on a system, rather than Christ himself, be careful not to take others down with you.
quote: i know some here who do not just want to make a christinaity to their own liking but carefully study the bible, pray, ask God to search their heart for all inquity and lead them in truth, who have changed their opinions and ideas as they have discovered errors in their traditions and mindsets as they meditate on the word of God. as for Holy Fire, it seems quite interesting, but seems like it has become an Idol.. it is called a miracle, and maybe it is, but i'll stick with a christianity in which the claimed miracles are those of what Jesus and the early disciples did.
quote: we are not. we are saying that the "church" is a subset of the orthodox church, and that "church" is also a subset of the "church".
quote: in the beginning was the Word, and the Word with God, and the word was God. John 1.. Jesus is the word Jesus Way, the Truth, the Life so in the sense of the bible just being words on a page, it is not enough. But in the context of Jesus, it is enough, its the living word of God with power to split soul and spirit, it accomplishes much and does not come back void, and Jesus is enough. about the word, everything is to be tested but i am NOT anti orthodox, i am thankful for many things with them, preserving some very important orthodox doctrines, in a world where men have corrupted christianity, yet they are not immune to this disease themselves, but God's grace is sufficent. the only thing i am against, is out of orderness, where things of man, and tradtions become idols above God, and this is true in this case.. for you have seemed to place the orthodox church higher than the Word of God, and above the Body of Christ (all "true" christians).. when in fact all men of God need to be under the word of God and their sayings and teached tested against God's perfect word here is a personal question.. in Christ, Karl ------------------ [This message has been edited by klumsy (edited May 09, 2005).] |
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
I had about 2 pages typed up, but Klumsy put it well, and much shorter also. ------------------ [This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 09, 2005).] |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Warsong, even if I could understand the response you posted to me I still would be confused as to what you are going on about - your words just do not make sense to me. I don't know if English is your primary language or not (it appears not to be), but please do take time to comment carefully so your words and their intent are understood. If you get so angry you cannot communicate properly, you should not respond until you are calm. I do not say this to make fun, but for the benefit of everyone. The sites I posted that you refer to must be either: (a) the Messianic Jewish websites, or (b) the BBC news article. I am assuming your comment was targetting (a). Why do you say such things? Do you assume me to be a Jew? Do you assume me to be an unbeliever? And why do you associate me with the things you have? What is your basis for making me to be something I am not, for attributing beliefs to me that I do not hold, for tearing me down when I have spoken the truth? Is it the truth you despise, or it is easier to attack me? If you claim to be a Christian and continue do these things, I will have nothing more to do with you. I have done you no wrong. Karl, thank you for being a brother. I am sorry for contributing to this discussion. I hope that the damage that lies on this and other pages here can be undone. I understand why Krylar has separated discussions like this - they are too often rooted in bitterness - or end up that way, even if they are on-topic. I pray those who have been confused over this discussion do not lose faith on my account and are blessed by God. |
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Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Warsong, I seriously considered joining the orthodox church for a while, and in the interest of learning more about it I joined in conversations and watched conversations on Orthodox message forums. In the end, there were a couple of doctrinal issues I did not agree with, but primarily it was the orthodox people themselves that turned me off to the orthodox church. What I saw was a group of people rank with racism and ethnocentrism. The orthodox church has been overcome by pride and arrogance and it uses its tradition to drive "the unworthy" away just as the pharisees did in Jesus day. You say that the ethnocentrism doesn't exist? I can only ask have you ever looked at your church? Just in the few months I've been researching it I have been told, literaly, by orthodox that you must to some degree adopt greek or russian culture in order to be orthodox. At a local russian orthodox church I know of a girl who went to visit the church because she was curious and when she went in the door the first thing the door greeter said to her was not "welcome" etc.. it was "Is your father Russian?" she was deliberately made to feel unwelcome because she was not russian. Apparently the only branch of the orthodox church which isn't completely this way is the antiochian. They at least don't reject people at the door based on ethnic heretige. Your defense of the church not spreading the gospel is "they aren't allowed to" I can only say GIVE ME A BREAK, you must be joking. The church in the world today is growing BY FAR the fastest in countries where it is under persecution. The west where the church has relative freedom, its largely stagnant. Being "allowed to spread the gospel" has nothing to do with bearing fruit. For the vast majority of the churches history it has suffered persecution and overcome to bear great fruit. In fact the only major church in the last thousand years which has not had significant outreach and born fruit is the orthodox. Klumsy makes a very good point when he mentions the political influences on the orthodox church. Through out its history the orthodox church has deliberately allied itself to the state whenever possible. The end result of this has not only been that they have been heavily influenced by politics, they also have supported tyrants and oppression over the populations of the countries that they have been prevalent in. Tradition is also important. However, the church is not infallible, the teaching of the apostles is infallible. If we can be sure that something came from the apostles, then we can have faith that it is infallible. However, much of the Holy Tradition does not come fully into being for as much as 700 years after the apostles. To require admission of a teaching 700 years removed from the apostles for salvation or membership in the church is not right. I'm not saying that even those traditions should be done away with, but they SHOULD NOT and CAN NOT be used to divide the church as the orthodox have done. The protestants do have much to learn from orthodoxy and orthodox doctrine, but it seems the orthodox church and orthodox people are determined to do everything they can to prevent such a thing from happening. ------------------ |
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Thanks for the reply Klumsy What he says is silly not him. If you look in the bible you can see quotes which go against what many say as well. As for the Jews Many saints and even Christ said not so positive things. If you see in the Jewish books you will see similarities like the Muslim religion that says hatred. Look at history or you will be doomed to repeat. I think you should look it up because you are saying what you do not know. I advice you to check the sites I put, or check the site that coolj put up since many things you question are answered on the site. So you are saying that Christ was wrong? It seems that way since you say he was wrong to give authority to the apostils, and for them to give to the priests and so on. And even Christ mentions that the people that have the have the original orthodox faith will carry his word, and many of the things said in the bible come from them as well. Well at least we covered the topic on whish Christian sect was first which many did not know. Even the bible talks about traditions which the site stated. You say about ignoring the holy fire which if god brings it down wouldn�t you think that God wants you to notice it than ignore it? If he didn�t care he would not let it happen in the first palace, but also look at the history when no priest went into the tomb since Muslims did not want anything in so they locked it and now the fire busted out of the column. If we ignore God then when calling out then what does that say when you ignore God? You say you want to stick to what miracles Jesus does so why are you ignoring it? You are assuming about the church being a subset. Are you saying Christ has given you no true church? You are right in what you generally say but the problem is now what you do know it is what you do not know which can hurt. Other churches have never been considered churches by orthodoxy after the separation, but are considered Christian communities. It is like me proclaiming you as a judge when I do not have the authority to do so, and you may do all the right things but you still are not a judge you know? It is like we are breaking all of the rules. I agree they are not immune, but as a whole they check themselves to keep the order and they do not move priests around if they do something bad but kick them out. I am not placing the orthodoxy church over God but that people should follow others things that it says which do not go against God. And they have more of an authority to tell you if you are reading what the bible says right or wrong. My passion of the bible and the Church backs it up since so many people get it wrong. For instance the passion of the Christ is wrong in many ways since that was not the main language, it was a catholic propaganda film. The meaning the Easter for the catholic people are the general masses are wrong since it is not about his death but about his resurrection. Everyone will think just because they have the bible they can think what they want which that is dangerous. You can not learn to drive without a driving instructor and only use just your booklet, because you do not want to go to an accident. Simon Welcome back You should read your history and read modern news about how it is not allowed. Do you Even former Archbishop lakovos (which he died the same week as the pope but not much mention about him) was pressures to resign in the US, and his predecessor was also forced to resign but not by the church but by politics in the US. More orthodox people died in the world war, as I stated to Brandon how over 100 church and Serbian orthodox being killed and not a world about it on the news, The first genocide last century was the orthodox Armenians and not a mention, Ethiopians getting killed and the Muslims are attacking and not a mention, the EU wants orthodoxy to not have power and political problems are being started, and many more around the world, and even the holy fire is not mentioned or Easter on in the median when there are more Orthodox Christians than Jewish for example and you always here about a Jewish holiday. It is not what you do know it is about what you do not know that pushes you away since you are making these imaginary road blocks. I always talked about this to the others on how no other church in history has been more oppressed but you seem to ignore it from every orthodox nation. Take one step back from religion and look to go 2 steps forward into religion. You are afraid to open your eyes since you do not want to believe. Instead of finding reasons why they are what they are, you would rather stop and just point fingers. Again read the full story since you can not get everything if you read � a book. They do not support tyrants and again you are assuming and not using facts. If it was not for the church many Christian nations would not be free. They helped fight and start wars to fee the people from slavery and they did not support the tyrants. And what so called tyrants are you talking about? Does making things up please you? You know even know all the facts? You obviously do not know politics so get your mind out of it. Again do not assume since You do a lot of assuming without any facts and you generalize what 1 out of 1000 do, and some of your statements contradict. You are picking up bad habits so watch out. As for tradition read what was said before. But the orthodox does not divide the church and should not change because others church tell it to change, if you feel that is the right church then you should know that other should follow. I hope you do not say that the church should change because people change to accept women, gays, fornication, and what next killing. They are not preventing any one as I stated before, you are not looking at the big picture. If you think orthodoxy is right and you think you can do better to spread it go ahead. "The teachings of the Lord, proclaimed by the Apostles, whether the Twelve or the larger group of Apostles (the Seventy, for example), or the missionary Apostles like Saint Paul, were handed down to the apostolic community. This faith, once handed down to the Saints, continued to live in the Christian community that succeeded apostolic times." as stated by the link to Klumsy --------------------------- - [This message has been edited by warsong (edited May 10, 2005).] |
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
quote: Yeah I did read the links, I read through most of that site. I agree with a lot of what is said there, but I don't agree with the Icon's, what you think about Mary, and many other rituals that you all do. Some are good, but they are not to obtain salvation. Hey, maybe I wasn't looking good enough on that site, but I don't think that I saw anything that said how to be saved. Is that true? I could be wrong. Okay, let me get to the bottom line here. I have a question for you. Do you think that if someone doesn't pratice your religion but they have prayed to Jesus Christ and asked Him to forgive their sins, and they live for Him, and even bring others to Him as well. Do you think that if they don't join your sect, that they'd go to hell? Here is a link for you. It's the chuch that I attend and plan on joining soon: http://www.sheffieldfamilylifecenter.org/ Here is our mission: http://www.sheffieldfamilylifecenter.org/about/mission.html We are involved in many ministries that span our city, and even go throughout the world on mission trips to spread the gospel to those who haven't heard it yet. http://www.sheffieldfamilylifecenter.org/ministry/ministrylist.html Are you saying that everyone in my church drop what they are doing and run out to join an Orthodox Church? You know the true church are those who believe in Jesus Christ, the true church cares for the physical, spiritual, and emotional needs of people. I'm not saying that my church is THE church, I am saying that those who attend my church and who believe (put complete trust in) Christ are also part of THE CHURCH. I am thinking of joining this church because it is the closest thing that I have seen to Christianity as it was in the book of Acts. In a very slight way, you remind me of a cyber Paul before his conversion... I think it's good that you have such zeal for what you believe. But is it right for you to force your non-scriptural beliefs on other Christians and even tell them that if they don't believe that the Orthodox Christian sect is the one true Church that they are going to hell? Is that right? Is that the Good News that Jesus told us to spread throughout the world? Let me ask you another question. Which is more important; tradition, or knowing God in a personal relationship? One day everyone will answer TO GOD. You will have to answer to Him face to face. Just you and Him. Tell me... do you know Him? Does He know you?
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quote: Does he know you? I'm not asking if you have been baptized or recite the creeds, or trust in the priests. I'm asking do you know Him? There will be some on that glorious and dreadful day that think that they are going to heaven because of things like their religion and who they are. But they are going to be shocked to find out that Jesus has never even known them... again Warsong. Do you know Him? Does He know you? If you answer yes then my next question is this. Do you know that people are lost without Jesus? What are you doing about it? Have you really been spreading the Good News?
[This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 10, 2005).] |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Warsong, I came across this site that I would like you to help me with. Can you verify this stuff for me, from your understanding/experience of orthodoxy. http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html I haven't really found anything like this that compares these two views to this degree, though I am still investigating things and weighing with scripture what I find. |
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Before I forget Simon asked before about entering an orthodox church if he is not orthodox you can enter but you can not enter “all the way” in since it is only allowed for orthodox believers. Also here is another good Orthodox site to look for info which might have better information. Brandon Also when you say the true “church”, which we talked about how every other sect does not have a church but a community which is how orthodoxy sees it. I can not give you official reason since I am not an official but my a logical assumption would be that if someone breaks away from a Christian religion and they make their own with their own rules and they make their own church can you say that it is an official church or a community? Also I see your church is in Kansas which I should have knows looking from where you are from. No one here knows god well and everyone should work on knowing gods laws to know better. The links that are presented can help answer you other questions. It is good that you quote what you know, but more importantly you should know what you do not quote. ---------------- - - - ************* I just found this [This message has been edited by warsong (edited May 14, 2005).] |
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Side note***************************************************************** From the link I gave lastn which WOW some of the stories are shocking. Here are some short edited parts of what some people said which made some people cry it seems. ------------------- - - I first discovered the Orthodox Church through a computer game! It was called SWAT 3: Elite Edition, and one of the missions involved saving several priests and clergy from terrorists who had taken over a gigantic and beautiful Russian Orthodox cathedral. Let me tell you; after making my way "inside" the cathedral, I saw nothing but beauty; the icons, images; everything about it. I thought to myself: "This is just a computer game, surely the a real Orthodox cathedral isn't this beautiful!". I was wrong. I went to Google, looked up Orthodoxy and their beliefs, and the rest as they say, is history. All I can say is; had I not bought that PC game, I don't think I would be where I am right now. Reading Thomas Aquinas helped me become Orthodox! It brings me joy that confession is taken seriously because it is to be a healing process for the soul and not just a grocery list of sins. The fast of Great Lent brings a new and much greater joy to Holy Pascha than I had ever experienced prior to my conversion. In short, it is good to be home At my first Orthodox service after coming home, I told the Priest I wanted to be a Catechumen, which is a person preparing to become Orthodox. Incidentally, my future wife was standing in line behind me and overheard me talking to the Priest. We struck up conversation and the rest is history I read a ton of books. I prayed. I studied history. Orthodox history stretched all the way back to the Apostles. I found "The Trail of Blood", a tract which charts Baptist history, to be, quite frankly, poorly written fiction. I saw the doctrines of the Orthodox Church were the doctrines of the Apostles. And all those verses that remained un-highlighted in my Bible suddenly made sense in the context of Holy Tradition. It was that same Holy Tradition that decided which books were truly Scripture. If I believed Scripture, I had to believe Holy Tradition. Without one, there cannot be the other. "The Church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." (Eph 1:22-23) |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
so which of those testimonies is yours? and if its not one of them, tell us about it ------------------ |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
Sorry about not getting back - I have not had enough time to do much research, as I've had to finish finals in college and move to a new state. I have lost my train of thought, unfortunately Let me just say that IMHO neither individuals nor tradition are IMHO the best ways to interpret the Bible - the Bible should speak for itself. If it is indeed God's word, it should stand by itself, and should not be subject to the many interpretations of falliable humans. So - yes, I agree that there are many wrong interpretations, and that misinterpreting can be dangerous. We disagree, however, on how to resolve the problem. And let me be honest with this apostolic succession thing. Jesus gave commands to his disciples, but I do not see anywhere where he says that this has to be handed down through some specialized means to appointed "successors." And what I've read of the website has failed to convince me also. And your best response is "read more of it" and "if you have questions, ask" - how can I form my own questions if you cannot answer mine? I've already stated why I disagree, and I do not think the website addresses my concerns. No, I do not have any questions, other than where is the biblical reference that talks about succession? I am afraid I cannot continue this discussion until the question is sufficiently answered. ------------------ 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Warsong, There is one thing in particular that has been almost thematic in your responses, so I must ask this question: How does this passage fit into this discussion - or moreso, the orthodox church? |
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Klumsy Non, since that was the first time I went on that site. --------------- CobraA1 Yeah same here sorry for the delay. But you asked question that I already gave you the answer of the place to look. But here are some the thing again, but look at what I said and the links which can explain more. I answer your questions, but you should play closer attention “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ... That which we have seen and heard we declare unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son, Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:1-3). "The teachings of the Lord, proclaimed by the Apostles, whether the Twelve or the larger group of Apostles (the Seventy, for example), or the missionary Apostles like Saint Paul, were handed down to the apostolic community. This faith, once handed down to the Saints, continued to live in the Christian community that succeeded apostolic times." The bible can not speak for itself since the best person to speak for it is a priest that knows it best. “This is why it cannot be said that the translations are "the inspired word of God." Only the original language is "the inspired word of God."” http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7068.asp Remember just because the bible does not say it straight out does not mean it is not in their. Kind of like homosexuality how so many say that the bible does not say homosexuality is a sin. But it says things that restrict the action of it, you know? Also people that attack homosexuals does not make them better Christians since they are also sinners. |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Warsong, you still didn't answer my question. And there is another church that claims to be the one true church - the Roman Catholic Church. But even still there are many faiths - not all Christian - that claim to be the right way. You need to take another argument than that the Orthodox church has claimed for years since the Pentecost of Acts to be the true Christian church. Please don't defer me to a priest yet again, or yet another website; I've read all about what Christian Orthodoxy is, but still you haven't answered the questions before you. I want to know why *you* believe what *you* believe and what *you* base it on according to scripture - not what some priest thinks about it or what you've been told by someone else or found on the internet and obviously taken as gospel (pun intended). Come on, man, put that brain of yours to use and step away from the confusion you are swimming in. I've never seen such odball applications for scripture as you demonstrated in your last response - and I know why you used them and where you got them because I've seen those same references on the sites you linked here in support of Orthodoxy. 2 Timothy 3:12 - 17: 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Is the man of God in reference here the general believer, or specifically a priest in the Orthodox church? Why do you seek the opinions of a priest anyway? Jesus Christ was the last priest needed for the intercession with God on behalf of mankind. All priests after Christ are false priests because there is no new intercessor that supercedes Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ paid the final sacrifice for sin; a priest is not needed for that either. The apostles were not priests, so what is the point of apostolic succession and the interpretation of scripture by priests - because if only priests can interpret scripture and make sense of all the Bible says, then the apostles did things in error because they weren't priests and so then we have this crazy cycle started where the Orthodox faith is based on apostolic succession, built on the teaching of the apostles who were not priests and thus could not properly interpret scripture...blah blah blah. Sorry, my turn: LOL, you tell me how you see it. Honestly, I don't care anymore about this discussion. All you've shown me is how far gone the Orthodox church is with empty tradition. As far as I'm concerned, the views the Orthodox church espouse are heresy and blasphemy - along with the Roman Catholic church and a few other so-called-christian religions. I'm just glad Christ hasn't yet raptured the believers, but I sure wish he'd hurry! |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
(Sorry for the double post, but it has been a couple of days since my previous post.) I came across this nifty site and thought I'd share for those interested: God bless! |
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You can hear but you also do not listen. Just because a question was not directed to you don’t mean I did not answer. It is like everyone keeps asking the same questions and people do not get the answer. Calling Christianity an oddball does not help. You are ignoring facts. Write down the main points in what I said and you will see that it adds up. I have been talking to you in a logical way and not in a religious way. If you want religious then go to links if you want the logical facts read on. I know what you mean that every church thinks they are the true church and everyone does. Do you honestly think that a church will say they are not the true church of God? All churches think they are saying the true words of Christ. I already talked about the Catholic Church how they have done so many bad things and attacked the Orthodox Church and has said sorry so many times to them. A church that says sorry to another church does not show that is does what Christ says to do. Christ does not say sorry and neither does his words or actions need to apologies. The Catholic Church needs to make itself look like the original which is why in the movie the Passion they make the main language Latin which that was not the language then but they use it for propaganda. The best catholic priest is generally the worst because they most likely know the most to know what the truth is, which is why you also have the Catholic Church being a haven for many Gay and Lesbian Church members which some of them admit it. Like I said even the pope said sorry to the orthodox church for attacking it, stealing from it, weakening it to become salves by Muslims which helped them increase in popularity but they will not actually pay them back or give them the things they stole as I said to the others here before. If you saw the timeline you will see how many new sects started 500 years ago even though the Christian religion is close to 2000 years old. If is like me making a program called windows and saying I am the originator and that Microsoft does not follow its true original way. You say you read what orthodoxy is but you do not understand it and you obviously do not understand the bible which most people do not which is why it needs to be explained by a professional, so don’t try to assume you know it all. This is why we are talking in a logical sense more than a religious sense. I have been telling you want I think and showed you links that help explain it. You should take your own advice from the quotes. But you should know that the bible is like chess game since you can not take one saying as gold and use it all the time. You have to take everything Christ says and see that it does not obstruct another point. It is like your points are not wrong but they can not be used as a sole authority if you have other things that give it a limit which you ignore as well what I have quoted form the bible. If is like when it says thou shall not kill but it does not mean you can not kill even if your life and many other lives are at stake, and then you might say to turn the other cheeks and so on. Like I said that the Christ said logical things which many people are not relating now since they are trying to be politically correct and many of the things the bible says comes from ancient philosophers. If you think everyone can interpret the bible the same then there is no need for any priests but most do not interpret it well and even the movie the passion shows this how they show the crucifixion as important while Orthodoxy shows that the resurrection is from day one. If you say all priests after Christ are false priests then so are the apostils false in that kind of saying and also the orthodox priest are false, and you still think that then the bible is also false. Christ came out of the virgin marry and not from a hooker. The New Testament came from true Christians and not from false Christians. So all in all you are saying Christ wasted his time giving authority to the apostles and that the true word of God comes from someone that has no relation to him. Obviously you do not mean what you say intentionally but you say it unintentionally and your statements are contradictory which you have to pay closer attention. You can call traditions empty but you say that since you do not understand and you want to easy way out. If you want to take the short easy and narrow path you have been warned many times in the bible. If I cooked you food and you love it and you attack me then you are biting the hand that feeds you. Orthodoxy gave you the bible and you attack orthodoxy. How can you say you know what you are talking about when you are not even humble enough to know that you do not know? You call Orthodoxy a heresy but when you say that it makes you a heretic since you ignore all the signs and do want to do what to listen since you put many contradictory statements. You think you know it all and like and that is your down fall. Look at the facts, which you seem too not want to pay attention. If you believe Christ knows it all and is always right then you should not pick and choose to say that he was wrong to give authority to the apostils. Here is a tip. Just because you agree with some parts of the bible does not mean you should reject the other parts. And for you to speculate what it says is like gambling (a sin) which is a sin since you do not the authority or knowledge to what it truly means. If you like to gamble then go ahead and sin away. If it was not for Orthodoxy most people would be the antithesis of Christianity to be Jewish, Muslim, or atheist. You know I am holding back a lot of information but I expect you to look for more information. Most Christian churches are a clone of a clones clone and as we all know a copy is never exactly like the original. You are contradicting your arguments so that you see yourself right which I do not understand why you persist to do that. Honestly you seriously need help badly and if you do not even want to play it safe and try then you really do not care about Christianity. So the next question is what religion are you? Jewish, Muslim, atheist, etc? Maybe you should write things down and put them in other neutral terms to see if it does not contradict. Good luck |
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
Warsong:
quote: I do agree that many take scripture out of context to prove there own point on many occasions. For instance, I witnessed you do this about dogs in another post. The crucifixion is just as important as the resurrection. Without Jesus dying on the cross, we would have to pay for our sins ourselves. There would be no way for us to go to heaven. Ummm Warsong... you seem to think that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a Muslim or Atheist. Or that they are going to go out and become a drunken fornicator. What's the deal with that? What is it that you are trying to accomplish here? And gambling? Gimmie a break man. If you want to gamble with your soul then I'd say that putting your soul in the hands of a priest is gambling. I'd rather pray to my Savior and ask Him for understanding, and read His word for myself. I don't see anything wrong with consulting someone who's more learned on the subject, but I won't blindly follow any man. The Bible is for everyone to read, not just a select group of people. ------------------ |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
quote: Well, it seems our messages are getting further apart, heh. I've been distracted by other stuff, probably won't have much time for online discussion anymore.
quote: Wonderful passage. It describes the ministry of the apostles. . . . which I fully agree with. I do not disagree with the apostles' ministry, for crying out loud! That is not what is being questioned!
quote: I agree with:
The above I agree with. Those are not at stake, yet you keep repeating them as if they somehow answer my concerns! How many times must I tell you I agree with them? I do not agree with:
The above I cannot agree with. I can see no evidence in Biblical teachings that say that the teachings were restricted in such a way. I do, however, see plenty of evidence that the true Church is not one of this earth at all! The Church, as I understand it, is all believers, and who all of its members are is only known by God himself. Indeed, the disciples were commanded to preach outside the church - to the gentiles. His word was intended for all people, including the common folk. It was not intended to just be understood by a group of priests.
quote: How does this lead to apostolic succession? It is describing Christ's church.
quote: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism;" is the exact verse, BTW. The other stuff was merely added by the article you quoted. And yes, I agree with that verse - just like I agree with the rest of the Bible. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eph/Eph004.html#top
quote: I agree with: The original texts were indeed the inspired word of God. I disagree with: "The bible can not speak for itself"
quote: Why is that? Why must I trust a sinful man over God's own words? I am sure they know the Bible quite well, and that they are saved. I do not see how this places them above God himself! Indeed - I am sure many theologians and pastors from my own church are no less studied in the original language and teachings of the Bible as those of the Orthodox church. Who is to say they are any more or less knowledgeable than your priests?
quote: Why is it, then, that I am constantly being surprised by the clarity of the Bible? It says quite a bit straight out - a lot more than you think! I do not believe in hidden meaning stuff like biblical codes or "The Da Vinci Code" stuff. You have a long ways to go if you want to convince me otherwise.
quote: But the Bible is very clear about it! Romans 1:25-27 Indeed, going with the original language only makes it clearer. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr006.html#9 Homosexuals are not just "interpreting" it differently, they are completely denying it!
quote: Of course not. People apologize for mistakes - Christ, being perfect, did not make mistakes
quote: Interesting illustration - and interesting that Windows is a lot different than it used to be . . .
quote: And who is to say the professionals at my church have studied any less than yours? I have had the Bible explained to me plenty of times.
quote: He most certainly did not waste his time. The Church was young, and needed strong leaders, and still needs strong leaders today. The rest of the New Testament also had to be written. There was a lot of work to do, and Jesus realized he needed some extraordinary people to do it. You are making a logical slip, though. This is not a restriction as to restrict it only to certain people. This is a freedom to allow the Church to grow and flourish. If this had been a restriction, I doubt the Church would have survived.
quote: Well, I am finding a whole lot of irrelevent, useless information, and not much in the way that would answer my questions directly. I am afraid I I must continue to disagree with you for these reasons:
I hope I am being clear. ------------------ 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. EDIT: fixed blue letter bible links [This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited June 12, 2005).] |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
After repeated personal attacks on what you assume I believe and think about God, Christ, the Bible, etc...only now you ask me what religion I am? You have to be kidding. Why would that matter, if you have judged me to be ignorant and foolish. Seems a bit late to be concerned for me in that respect. And what difference does that make anyway? Seems a believer is to be a certain way toward everyone, regardless of such things. There are exceptions of course...which is why I choose to end my involvement in this (I think I tried that once before...hmm). Anyway... If you are a believer of Christ, then God bless you. I'm outta here. |
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
Warsong, I know that you like the chick comics. I have a comic here for you to read http://theophilus.org/powers1/battle.html ------------------ |
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Hey been busy but I hope some people read up on things. Well here is my reply. Brandon The crucifixion is important but not as important as the resurrection since many have been crucified no one had resurrected them selves. Both the crucifixion and the resurrection go together and the crucifixion should not be focused on only. You still have to pay for your sins, you can not just sin and say Jesus died for you so that you can sin which some people interpret it that way. This other protestant says to stop Muslim killers which forcefully convert others it to kill their leaders and forcefully convert them. Now many Christians think in this odd way which their views lean towards a Muslim view than a Christian view. Saying that you are Christian doesn’t make you a Christian action like one does. You say talking to a priest that has 7 years of experience and knows the original language that has an apostolic succession and the rest does not know more than you? Again you better not go to a doctor that went to school and you better heal a cut on your own if you feel so strongly about it. Ever hear the saying he who knows it all knows nothing? Christ emphasis’s about the church and not Christian communities. Churches have rules and you can not do what you want which I know how traditions are very bad in your eyes but you have to follow rules of conduct in a holy place. The bible mentions priests many times one totally random example about priests is this “Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.“ If you think you are knowledgeable enough like a “doctor” to operate on yourself then good luck. But at least you are willing to ask a priest form time to time. Everyone can read the bible but not everyone can understand it and many make their own church based on the bible calling themselves Christian that go far apart from what Christ said which goes back to the notion that not all Christian sects are the same. Anyway about churches you see how services are done in a wide variety of church. Now some just praise Christ and have they have people singing which kind of goes against the original church. The Orthodox Church explains to people about religion on what to do to praise god more than others. It is like giving junk food to a child and the child gets addicted to the sugar and will not want regular food since the junk food tastes better. Now we can say food is food but there proper ways of eating and improper ways of eating, and the same goes with religion how there are proper ways to praise god and improper ways. All churches can do not have the original New Testament and did not make it unlike the Orthodox church. To just follow the Bible is another religion all by itself in its essence kind of like Protestantism in what they yap sometimes which they are pushing for gay and women priests, to say that all churches are the same is another religion by itself in its essence, to follow another sects, and orthodoxy are all different in its view. You can say you don’t take sides but you will always take a side even if the side is not taking one. If you want to follow only the bible then that is your view but the bible clearly states how that alone can not save you. If you believe or practice anything apart from the Apostles' Doctrine, ALL YOU DO IS IN VAIN. Acts 2:42, Gal. 1:8-9, I Tim. 6:3-4, II Thess. 3:14, II John 1:10, Gal. 1:6-7. “4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Weather people like it or not Christians do need the church and priest to get what they need and to get the right message. Cobra1 Some things I already explained to Brandon in what you asked. Many know about Adam and Eve but not about Adam and Lilith which came before Eve which maybe one day someone will come up with their own Christian religion like always and put other books like Adam and Lilith and other stories that were not included in the bible. There is a reason why Christian books have what they have as well which the Orthodox church did not put in for many good reasons. Don’t follow everything you hear since the Orthodox church presented the bible to you to help you weed out what should be which many people never even heard of it being the first. You say that all believers are the church but what is a believer? One that thinks gay marriage is ok which some Christians are ok with? One that says it is ok to marry many women? Or the Christians that say its ok to fornicate? Or the other Christians that don’t believe in the church? All consist of different Christian sects which they all say are true believers. I see gay Christians on TV that say they believe in Christ and they think nothing of all the things that the bible is against. If you add all “believers” up you will get very few that will say what God wanted us to believe in. Hey you can say you have a sword but if you have a piece of metal no bigger than a penny than you do not have “a sword” but part of a sword just like how so many have part of Christian beliefs in them just like how many atheists do too since they follow laws which the laws are also made with the help of Christianity. Agree? You ask how this applies to Apostolic succession: The bible can not speak for itself on what every thing mean since many misinterpreted it. Catholics and protestants have misinterpreted the bible and have done many atrocities because of their illogical deductions. But to a point they know what it means but do manipulate it sometimes use the bible to get what they want like the crusades how they attacked the Orthodox Christians. Why should you listen to a priest over the bible? I explained that already in this post. As for some other pastors being more knowledgeable is not likely which I explained. Also each sect goes not go to the same school since orthodox priests did not go to the same school to be priests as the Catholics. Many schools have better education and there is a difference from Yale and a community college. You can see difference in teaching though history. Look at WW2 how many Catholics forcefully tried to convert the Serbian orthodox and if they did not convert they killed them, and how the catholic church brings in many gay clergy. The Orthodox Arch bishop marched with Martin Luther king Jr. in a time when all other Christian sects attacked it. The parallels from one Christian sect to another are day and night but if you want to close your eyes and say they are the same then you are ignoring facts. I am not saying the bible has hidden code like the Da Vinci code which that book is categorized as fiction and not fact. The news just throws it to people that is might be fact since they are secular and push that agenda to people since the ones that run most of the media are not Christians but are viciously against Christianity. I know the bible is clear about many things but to many that want to interpret it like they do not see it that way like the Mormons that marry many wives, the protestants and catholic that think gay is not a sin, how fornications to many alleged very religious church goers don’t know what it is but they do it. But I am sure there are some things you did not know about which has slipped your mind which a Hari Krishna pointed out telling me these things that these go against the bible like purgatory (Galatians 1:8-9) or against Calling priests father 1 Timothy 4:1-3 which some agree with. Have you heard about another Christian sect that say that Christ failed for not having a kid and they say they hold the true word? All sects think they are the one but they all don’t even come close to orthodoxy. And even just following the bible alone is another Christian sects on its own which that also goes against Christ words which I sated. But like you said that the gays and the main news media deny that the bible is not for gays. When you give people to interpret the bible many will and do pick and choose and they do not want to see an official authority about it and society keeps attacking it and many of the false Christian sects change it and the bible becomes just a book about a self help which some people can pick what suites them for a certain mood which many do. Even many Catholics think that the father, son, and holy spirit are separate which they make their cross the opposite way and they hold their 3 fingers not together. You might say its tradition which who cares but it shows how you believe which many ignore everything of what Christ said. Yes Christ is the only one that does not make mistakes but Christ said to be more like him and the church that says sorry less is more like him unlike most Christian sects which have done less and have been around far less which have done more damage, so my example does give you an idea. As for windows example, the company MS windows is still MS windows and they made the program and they have the authority to make it be as they want it to be since they have the authority. The same can not be said for all other Christian sects since they can not change the religion which many have and they can not add to explain things better unlike the original church can which is the orthodox church. So you agree that Christ did not waste his time, especially with apostolic succession. And yes church should grow and flourish but not grow to say they are the church and preach different things that go against Christ and many churches have done many atrocities towards the orthodox church and to other churches which is unchristian. The problem is that many of the Christian sects have done more harm than good for Christianity which help make these other negative religions like the Muslim, Atheist, Satanist, etc which attack Christianity and society as a whole. You can disagree but you also misunderstand many things. Gods words are not hidden and it is clearly stated which many misinterpret and it the way they want to. Even the saying do to others what you want others to do to you was used by many Christian sects as a reason to attack others. Look at how for the last 1000 years when then Catholics started the sects how everything went down hill which you seem to ignore. If you can interpret well and say god is perfect then why does the old say an eye for an eye and the new says no eye for an eye? Why is the Jewish old testament different from the Christian old testament? If it is so simple why do all sects make up their own views about religion and why do so many that just follow the bible get I wrong as well? Many Christians say that the Jews are the chosen people but that is not true since so many misread it since they ignore other passages of the bible. It seems you can answer things that takes multiple experts to answer sometimes which many of them get it wrong. Nothing is hidden but many don’t get it right. Compare different bibles and see how the things mean different things in a way which some do take it different. Like the saying goes he who thinks they know it all knows nothing. You say you understand it all but you don’t get the passage about apostolic succession (1 John 1:1-3) Everything you said was easily countered which makes me feel that you are just playing, or you are proving me right again that people interpret the bible as they see. And again the best advice is to ask a priest of apostolic succession which what do you have to loose? Your faith? Lol come on stop playing and get serious. Nfektious [This message has been edited by warsong (edited July 11, 2005).] |
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
Wow! I really can't believe this...
quote: First off, I am not asking anyone to come to me. Jesus is the way, not me! Also, I'd like for you to tell me what makes a person holy? Is an orthodox priest more holy than a prostitute that has just received Christ and been forgiven? No! They were both sinners, and are saved by their faith in Jesus Christ, period. As for the manure comment... it seems like you're more out to insult me than to help me. You can name your manure whatever you'd like.
quote: I agree, they both go together, and the crucifixion shouldn't be only focused on. I totally agree with that. Without the resurrection there would be no hope for anyone.
quote: You don't have to pay for your sins, Jesus paid for them in full, for whosoever will. The only way to pay for your sin is in the lake of fire for eternity. You are teaching a different gospel than the one that Jesus and the apostles preached. Yes Jesus died for us, but no we certainly cannot just sin continually and think we are saved. This is what the bible says about such a person such as this:
quote: I don't agree that you can force someone to be a Christian, you can't! I agree that many claim to be Christians but don't live like it. This is what James speaks on in the book of James. The main message is this. "You're a Christian eh? Well... live like it!" Yeah, if you are indeed saved then your works will show that you are. But you have to understand that it isn't the works that make you a Christian, but you do the good works because you are a Christian.
quote: No I never said that. The priest probably does have more head knowledge than me. But that doesn't mean that he has a closer relationship with God than I do. I'm not concerned about that though, because I know where I stand. God knows me, and I know Him. He is my Lord, Savior and my best friend. Without Him... I am nothing. But with Him, I am His child, totally dedicated to doing what He says, for all time.
quote: Yeah churches should definitely have rules. And I don't really have a problem with tradition. There is going to be tradition every where, no matter where you fellowship. I just don't like empty shallow tradition. Sometimes people continue practicing tradition that was passed down to them without focusing on what's most important, and that's your walk with Jesus Christ. But instead they think it's their traditions that bring them closer to God, and that they can have any type of attitude in their hearts as long as they continue to practice the traditions. This is a great deception.
quote: I am a protestant. Homosexuality is sin. Any sexual act outside of marriage is sin. There are probably some people in every denomination, including orthodox, who'd disagree with me.
quote: Don't you see? Who is causing division here? This site is called "Christian Coders." Christians from all around the world come here to chat with each other, fellowship online with each other, pray for each other, and even discuss coding, games, and many other things. But why are you causing so much division here? Can't you see what you are doing?
[This message has been edited by brandon (edited July 10, 2005).] |
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Brandon (What kind of "avatar" is that? Which I disagree with the pagan word Avatar.) Anyway it seems generally you agree but there is a lack of communication in some ways and some of the things we slightly see different I explained why to cobra1. Everyone is a sinner I agree, but you can get the facts from a priest than from a hooker about the bible so let’s not make that comparison. As for the naming your pet I am giving you an extreme example so that you can see it clearly, kind of like shedding more light on the subject. I don’t want to insult you I think you are a fine dude. As for paying for sin, you should look into it more. Well at least you admit that a priest might know more, and yes you may be closer to God but God only knows that for sure. Well we all might say we know Christ but there is still a lot we do not know and we have a life time to learn them. As for traditions to many Christian sects it is silly like the Catholics putting some ash on their forehead. Now traditions for many can be seen as right and wrong and just because you don’t get it does not mean it serves a purpose or if it is the right procedure. Like I said there is a proper way and a wrong way of doing things and you will have everyone saying their opinion just like you and I but we have to be humble and go to the source and see what they have to say and ask why they do it. There is a reason even though many do not want to follow since it disrupts their night clubbing lives which people like that think of there selves first than God. You are a protestant you say that agrees that homosexual activities are a sin but and some other people like orthodox and others. But I am talking not about the people but about what the church officially stands for and proclaims. I am causing division or am I stating facts? Every sect after orthodoxy has caused a division and have went again what Christ states like the example of the protestant church saying it’s ok to be gay on TV. The fact is that the church is divided by all these sects that contradict views which I gave you plenty of examples which you should take into account. If the truth is bad then what can I tell you. Christians should think and not just accept since a Mormon that accept and marries many wives also thinks he knows Christ but he doesn’t really know Christ to marry many wives. The reason why we have so many sects is that other sects do not interpret the bible well which go further away from God or they want to make a profit or maybe both. Like I quoted before "St. Paul, “now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (I Cor. 1:10.)." The protestant view is contradictory which that does not help Christianity but hurt it and for it to be separate just like the rest of the other sects. If you want to know Christ fully shouldn’t you know also the fully story than a distortion version? I did not think you were a protestant before you said it but the thing you say are protestant view which as you see if I can distinguish it then there is a division weather we like it or not. As for the rest I generally agree with you. |
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