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odd question – warsong




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We are in command of our own will. But the bible foretells what will happen.

So if we try to make the word a better place and the bible says that things will be bad in the future does that mean that maybe we might be a factor for making things bad? Or does that mean we won’t make a big impact?

Just a thought

Simon_Templar

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From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004

First off, we don't know for certain what time we live in. Many people have thought they were living in the end and been wrong. So it is not certain that things are only going to get worse.

Secondly, Although things may get worse in a general over all sense, there is nothing that really says things can't get better in specific places. For example, america is either not mentioned specificly in prophecy or it is mentioned very vaguely thus the end we face is not certain. I personaly believe that there are some things in prophecy that speak well for america.

There is, however, a place for realism and understanding here too. I've always been somewhat amazed by people who pray things like "Lord save every person and don't let anyone go to hell" or "don't allow the devil to have any control in the world". While those are perhaps nice thoughts, they are not in line with what God has stated, or the state of reality. Realizing what may be in God's will and what isn't can be an important part of spiritual warfare and prayer.

Ultimately we need to remember what george washington (if memory serves) once said, Duty is ours, Consequence is God's. We do what God gives us in the time he gives, not because what we might accomplish, or what the result might be, but simply because it is our duty. God gives us work to build and change us.

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

ArchAngel

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quote:
We are in command of our own will

says who? from my study of the bible and psychology, I tend otherwise. It seems to make the aspect of sin fit in nicely, and it sure does feel like we're in command of our will, but logic seems to say there is no freewill.
people always state this as a premise, but I never really got it.

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bennythebear

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i'm not going to try to say i can explain the whole freewill and predestination thing. but i believe we do have freewill, i also believe we are predestined. on america, i actually think prophecy speaks kind of bad of america, but i'm not going to get into all of that, mainly because it just stirs up strife. but anyway, we definately choose to sin, the same way Jesus chose to die for us(His choice was better) .

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Simon_Templar

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Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
In scripture there is support for both determinism (predestination) and free-will. Thus I tend to think that both are true to some degree. Also, on the surface, determinism does often seem more logical, but I think that free will is actually better from a logical stand point once you go deeper.

I think the bible is clear that no one can come to God, or come to repentance unless God brings them there.. so in that respect, we can't simply just choose " Oh I think I'll get saved today". Thats why the bible says things like "seek the Lord while he may be found". However, I think it is just as clear in scripture that when God calls someone, they have a choice whether to listen or not. I also think the bible is pretty clear that people can choose to abandon faith. I am aware that many disagree with that too.


Benny, do you think that America is "babylon" of revelation?
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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

[This message has been edited by simon_Templar (edited November 10, 2004).]

goop2

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quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
[QUOTE]We are in command of our own will


says who? from my study of the bible and psychology, I tend otherwise. It seems to make the aspect of sin fit in nicely, and it sure does feel like we're in command of our will, but logic seems to say there is no freewill.
people always state this as a premise, but I never really got it.

[/QUOTE]

Im gonna go with you on this one. If God knows what we will do before we do it, I dont consider that free will. We are kinda like actors in an unknown script.

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I took the road less traveled and now WHERE THE HELL AM I?????

ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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yeah. my view on time is that the future is just as written out as the past, we just haven't experienced it yet. our consciousness travels along the 4th dimension (time) in one direction, different speeds. just as objects can go from one point to another in one of the first 3 dimensions.

besides, is it really freewill if your influenced by your enviroment? your fears, desires, etc all come from the environment (your body included). all the decisions you made are based on the environmental factors that affected you.

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goop2

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Hmmmm... You read the time machine XD

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I took the road less traveled and now WHERE THE HELL AM I?????

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
well, I studied relativity! I taught H.G. Wells! he was my pupil! my padawan!
okay, I did also...
but I got it from einstien! einstien, I say!

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goop2

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you knew H.G. Wells?!?! or was that a joke?

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I took the road less traveled and now WHERE THE HELL AM I?????

ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
I'm his father.

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goop2

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My grandparents arent old enough to be his father.

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I took the road less traveled and now WHERE THE HELL AM I?????

HanClinto

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Where do we get mercury from?

H.G. wells.
*rimshot*

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Briant

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Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
If there's no such thing as free will, then I literally have no choice but to disagree.

Brian

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Brian

ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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your environment made you disagree.

I win.

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Briant

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From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
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Environment can influence, but it doesn't totally control.

I am not a robot, unless God preprogrammed me to say that, in which case he deceived me.

I win.

[This message has been edited by BrianT (edited November 18, 2004).]

ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
Environment can influence, but it doesn't totally control.

are you sure about that? Any reason or desire you have would to do something comes from the environment. now, there is conflicts of reasons and desires, which would give the illusion of a choice. lol.

but, I must say, I'm not as supportive as this view as I seem. I'm just taking this side for arguement's sake.

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Briant

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Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
Then what are "reasons" and "desires"? Wouldn't they be simply products of the (molecular) environment (in the brain) as well?

(I know you're just playing "devil's advocate" )

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Brian

Klumsy

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this is a big topic, armenianism versus calvinism, i believe in some of both, i believe that both empahsis some important truths (which they each reject each others), and pretty much the downfall is people try to fit it into a framework of human understanding, which in essense brings foolishness, there are always such paradoxes with God, and we stuck inside the physical space time domain have a hard time understanding.. i see it similar to this little quote

Above the entry was written "Whoever will may enter." The man chooses to enter the door and when he looks back, he sees the words "chosen before the foundation of the world."

i believe we are choosen, and choose , we may make a certian choice at a certian time and at that moment - recieve the gift of Christ and become a christian, we weren't born a christian, though we were born with the invetibility we would become one in a sense, because we end up becoming one, and God is looking after us, and working in our hearts , and loving and calling us long before we choose, for in reality, our natural hearts are far from God, and its only by the working of the HOly Spirit that we can choose, so many say "no fair, then thats not really choosing at all", but i believe it is, who are we to judge God, we can analyse this thing and easily come up that God is not fair, he chooses one and not another, and then why should someone be accountibile for their sins and have to go to hell, when God made then that way and didn't choose them anyway.. dangerous ground. or could try to analyse it by thinking "we'll God , having foresight knowing the end from the beginning, just chooses those he knows will turn it him" again speculation, and quite dangerous, if we try to reason it, we often get into the place of judging God's 'goodness', when i just know what God says, that i grasp parts of it here and there (enough to live my life for him) and i know and trust his loving and good character on the rest, even if i can barely start to understand it.

as for enviroment, enviroment effects it (i.e even the enviroment of whether you come in contact with the gospel or not), or way your brought up, or societies anti christian messages or whatever, but its a moot argument i think, because you can even say the neurological impluses are part of your enviroment.. but i do think people are individual and different and not completely molded by their enviroment, and God createes individuals with specific and unique worth and purposes..

all i know on this, is it humbles me, and brings me a healthy fear of the Lord to think , i was made somehow, with the personality, yearning, situations or whatever that was likely to turn to Christ, what humbles me, is those things are nothing to do with anything i coudl control, and what if i was somebody else, who didn't t urn to God.. probably not making any sense by this point

Karl

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ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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actually, I'm not really taking devil's adovate. I do tend toward this rather than free will. no free will does not mean your an observer, or are set to be certain way no matter how hard you try; I think that's a commmon misconception.

reasons and desires can range from hormonal impulses to classical conditioning, etc.

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Simon_Templar

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Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
Hey guys, good discussion

Something we need to consider in this discussion is just because an action or a choice is determined... doesn't mean you didn't take the action or choose it. This is a common misconception. If God knows you will make a given choice.. you still made the choice, not God. No human example if going to fit perfectly, but I think of it something like a movie... imagine yourself sitting back watching a movie, infact a movie that you have seen before, thus you know the ending. You have seen it so many times that you have it memorised and you know exactly what each character is going to say and do at every moment. Does the fact that you know exactly what the characters are going to say, mean that you said it? or that you determined they would say it? No. The fact that you have seen the movie has no impact whatsoever on the characters or their actions. Thus forknowledge does not affect the ability of a person to choose.

that is not the end of the story however, because God is not just someone watching the movie... he's the person directing the movie.
I don't know how many of you have ever played pencil and paper role playing games, but I have.. and I've GM'd a few in my day as well. I view God's role in determination something like the action of the perfect GM.
The Perfect GM has a story in mind, it has a begining, it has plot points, it has an end and it has set events that are going to happen. However, it also has the strange and wonderous ability we term flexability. A good GM doesn't tell players what they are going to do, otherwise the game looses all point and just becomes a non interactive story in which the players cease to exist. A good GM allows the players to decide for themselves based on their circumstance, he then takes what the playes do and fits it into his story. Thats how God works.. He is big enough to allow you to choose, and still make your choice fit perfectly into his plan.

Ultimately free-will vs. determinism is a mystery wrapped up in the very nature of God and his creation. We can only catch glimpses here and there. I can say that although determinism is tauted as the more logical it really isn't. I thought it was for a long time but the more i began to consider it, the more holes I began to see in it. I'm of the opinion that strict determinism is not compatable with scripture logicaly. But, for that matter, neither is strict free will The truth lies mysteriously in the middle.


As for environment determining outcome... the degree that this is true is directly inversely proportional to the strength of will/character the person posesses. Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you react to it. circumstance is nearly irrelevant to determining outcomes, unless you choose to let it.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
why would you fight your environment?
because contrary things already ingrained inside of you from previous experiences. now, the effects of the environment are extremely complex, and it's affect on a person can vary due to previous experiences. I'm sort of a behaviorist. more of a Watson Behaviorist than a Skinner one.

note: I'm not bringing up a philosophy, just stating how I think, from my education, things work.

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