General Christian Discussions

the begining – bennythebear

bennythebear

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Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
just getting a thought out here. ok, thinking logically everything has to come from somewhere, but eventually you have to have an absolute beginning. at least that's logical to me, and my logic could be flawed. i was just wondering what evolutionist used to answer this? like what was before the big bang? if something exploded and cause a universe, what was that thing in? anywho, i need some sleep. GOD bless.

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proverbs 17:28
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D-SIPL

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Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
Thats the thing that surely flaws the Big Bang theory, just how did all that dust and matter and energy get there??

I always like to think of God's existence in terms of a circle, there is no beginning and there is no end.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

GUMP

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Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Look into what Hawking has been researching the last 10 years and you'll find the answer (can't remember what he calls his idea now; or maybe I don't remember because he hasn't named the idea yet?). Last time I checked he hsa been unable to get it to work even in computer based mathematical models. Then there is the M theory (which of course conflicts with Hawking's research since it as a complete alternative).
Max

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Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
God always has been, he is, and always will be.

A humorous thing to think about. God would have had to create the Big Bang if it ever happened!

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ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
I thought Hawkings was working on the M theory. because in his book "Universe in a nutshell" he talks about it. confused me.
um, one theory on where the stuff for the big bang came from is from a previous universe. Big crunch to big bang.
it's not that bad of an idea actually. not unbiblical.

but, who wondered what the waters were in Genesis 1:2

"Gen 1:2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters "

Almost Sounds like there was something before this world. maybe a previous universe? maybe superstrings? who knows....

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cheybea
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Posts: 40
From:
Registered: 10-03-2004
Alpha and Omega..the Begining and the End
Thats all I have to say..

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W.o.G.

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
works.

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Mack

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Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
but, who wondered what the waters were in Genesis 1:2

"Gen 1:2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters "

Almost Sounds like there was something before this world. maybe a previous universe? maybe superstrings?


Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

I always assumed that the waters were the oceans that God formed, He first creating sky, soil and then water.

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Skynes
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Posts: 202
From: Belfast, N Ireland
Registered: 01-18-2004
Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without FORM and void" not waste, waste leads you to believe there was once something there, then it wasn't, then God made everything.

The waters were the ocean, singular. Land wasn't around yet. the ENTIRE world was covered in water, then day 3 or so, God parted the waters to form land.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
I was quoting the ASV translation.

and the hebrew for without form is "to'-hoo" which means something without worth, empty, desert, etc.

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d000hg
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Posts: 144
From: Durham, UK
Registered: 07-27-2004
Well the big bang theory says the fabric of space time was created in that first instant. There was no 'before' because the big bang was the start of time. Just like there is no physical meaning to 'outside the universe'.

How you die/refute this and God is your choice, but it's quite correct to think God created both time and space and as a timeless being He doesn't need space-time to exist (philosophy and metaphysics there!).

GUMP

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Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
quote:
Originally posted by d000hg:
Well the big bang theory says the fabric of space time was created in that first instant. There was no 'before' because the big bang was the start of time.

That's what Hawking is now attempting to work around. He knows that: "So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator." I'm assuming he hasn't had any success or I would have heard about it. The M theory is rapidly gaining popularity. It was amazing how fast that idea was devised a couple years back at a conference once all those astrophysicists realized their models did not jive with reality/empirical data. If their models' predictions were correct they should have attained a certain result; basically that Universe = 1. Instead the result was around 0.25 or 0.3.

I was keeping track of live updates while the conference was going on. Supposedly a lot of the scientists were very upset at the results, but then a day or so later someone had a brainstorm (can't remember his name). The initial idea surrounded "inter-dimensional friction" which supposedly would make up for the huge difference.

Yeah, I know. That's all extremely vague (though I did edit my post several times as I remembered more details). I've never been good at recalling exact names and dates; only impressions and visual images. I do remember the purpose of the conference was to work on the Grand Unified Theory, but I can't even remember the name of the conference! I should have printed out my notes on the conference; lost them all with my last HD crash (I've had 3 HD's die on me in the last 10 years). There was some very interesting discoveries discussed at that conference besides what I mentioned above... now if I could only remember something besides vague details.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited October 21, 2004).]

d000hg
Member

Posts: 144
From: Durham, UK
Registered: 07-27-2004
Yeah M-theory is interesting, basically it's string theory with multi-dimension strings IIRC.
Hawking would love to explain the universe so it needs no creator, or rather so that there is no space for one. However he reluctantly admits himself (at the end of A Brief Historuy of Time) that so far science does not clash with God.
CheeseStorm
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Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
The problem of "How was the (first) universe made?" is indeed the thorn in the side of science, and I've struggled with it for years. It is a very fun thing to wrap your mind around. The Big Bang explodes, the explosion eventually slows down, and the black holes bring everything back together again for another Big Bang (and yes, maybe there will be a Big Chill/Split instead of a Big Crunch, I haven't a clue as to what would be the result of that). So where'd the first Big Bang come from? No idea. How can we get something from nothing?

I've tried using the "Oh yeah, well where'd your fancy God come from?" argument in my debates, but it's always the same answer - here's been here FOREVER. That's a cheap answer, in my opinion. What's stopping scientists from saying the universe has simply been around forever? Our search for knowledge. Humans are skeptical and curious of their surroundings, and things that we don't understand will naturally attract us. So did God create himself? Was there a God before him? The same questions can be asked about the universe, but for some reason it doesn't work when we say it simply created itself. There's no fun in not being able to understand or explain something.

When technology has given us the answers, we'll see who's right. It's like a scientific Judgement Day. By the time we find the source of existence, we'll likely be gods, ourselves. Kinda ironic - since we could then create a whole new universe, and the people living inside that one would follow the same path as we did and oh well I'm getting off topic.

So yeah... science doesn't have all of the answers... yet. It just keeps on going, however, and you'd have to destroy much to stop the quest for knowledge! Muhahahahahaha.

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
I'm not going to bother arguing with you since it's obvious you still need to educate yourself on this subject. Just an observation, not an insult.

quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
So where'd the first Big Bang come from? No idea. How can we get something from nothing?

Run a search on "ekpyrotic scenario". Of course, once you're done absorbing that information you're still stuck, as this proposal still offers no reasonable explanation for where these branes originated from.

quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
I've tried using the "Oh yeah, well where'd your fancy God come from?" argument in my debates, but it's always the same answer - here's been here FOREVER. That's a cheap answer, in my opinion. What's stopping scientists from saying the universe has simply been around forever? Our search for knowledge. Humans are skeptical and curious of their surroundings, and things that we don't understand will naturally attract us. So did God create himself? Was there a God before him? The same questions can be asked about the universe, but for some reason it doesn't work when we say it simply created itself. There's no fun in not being able to understand or explain something.

Solid-state cosmology. You should also read what Hawking has to say on the subject.

quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
When technology has given us the answers, we'll see who's right. It's like a scientific Judgement Day. By the time we find the source of existence, we'll likely be gods, ourselves. Kinda ironic - since we could then create a whole new universe, and the people living inside that one would follow the same path as we did and oh well I'm getting off topic.

That I highly doubt. You do realize how much energy we're talking about?

I should also add that one of the basic predictions of M-Theory, that of multiple dimensionality, will not be capable of being tested until 2006/2007 at the earliest, assuming the required particle accelerator is built. Considering that I've always wondered why it's titled a "theory" since technically it only meets the specifications of a hypothesis at this point, never mind "scientific consensus" (which is often built on emotional attachment). Oh well, semantics...

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited November 28, 2004).]

CheeseStorm
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Posts: 521
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Registered: 11-28-2004
I'm just saying that by the time we've learned everything, we'll be able to do everything.
These theories sound pretty sweet, and I'll look into them some time. Hawking is awesome.
If you want a good read... have you tried any Kurzweil? That stuff is my Bible.
GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Partially. I'm not that interested in speculative philosophy. I also have a hard time taking his ideas too seriously as this time considering the basic functionality of the neuron still alludes us. Never mind the problems in artifical intelligence.

Of course, I'm assuming you mean Raymond Kurzweil (then again, I don't know anyone else with that particular last name that is famous). In his "Bible" I suppose it would start with "In the beginning was Information". Does he have an explanation for where "Information" came from?

CheeseStorm
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Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
I think he is more concerned with the future at the moment... dunno what his ideas about the past are. I didn't mean that his books are the Bible as in expaining everything, I just meant that they were very special to me, and gave me some new things to think about.

There's a point where everything just shifts into theory and philosophy. But as technology progresses, things will just keep getting more interesting.

As usual, we just have to wait and see how things turn out. In my opinion, it'll involve cyborgs at first, and then pure-machine.

goop2

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Posts: 1059
From:
Registered: 06-30-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Skynes:
Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without FORM and void" not waste, waste leads you to believe there was once something there, then it wasn't, then God made everything.
The waters were the ocean, singular. Land wasn't around yet. the ENTIRE world was covered in water, then day 3 or so, God parted the waters to form land.

Ever wondered where the land came from? It was all water remember?


quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
I've tried using the "Oh yeah, well where'd your fancy God come from?"

Ive wondered about that too.

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I shall worship you all of my life. Till death do us together.