Personally I think its impossible to know the exact date of his return as explictly spoke by Jesus but that certian signs have been forefilled that indicate we are very close to it. (The fig tree [fig tree=Israil] will put forth leaves and when this happens the generation that sees this happen will not pass away until it is done, and guess what Israil is restored on 1948 offically giving a generation in which Jesus will return(120 years according to gensis is the longest a human can live). This means 2061 is the latest date that it can kick off to give time for the 7 year punishment.) I think that the rapture will be pre-trib for various reason, but I and anyone else could be totally wrong!

Thats my thoughts but does anyone else have other veiws? By the way if you want it I know the name of a end time news site.

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Why hasn't someone done this before?

i respect ur views and everyting.

I personaaly think that starting a forum like that might be a bad idea. Why have people spend time aruing about something that doesnt realy matter? it doesnt matter when he comes back, as long as were ready for him when he does. our lives should be ready at all times. there is no real point in knowing when he will come. it is the source of seperation of churches. arguing about the Bible is not good, and thats all that would come of a forum about that. this is just my opinion.

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It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Abe Lincoln

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Soterion Studios

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Why hasn't someone done this before?

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

but if you want the biggest, plainest section of scripture, uttered by jesus himself

go to matthew 24.. you get a WHOLE CHAPTER, in plain language from jesus himself on this.. many words.. i try to collreate all the end times teachings/theories i have and have heard and line them up against this scripture plain and simple.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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Why hasn't someone done this before?

I believe that His return will be real soon, like within our lifetime. But as my friend said above, He comes when He comes. Although I do hope that it's soon as I'm sure many of you do as well! Which means that our work for Christ should be done in an even more incredible rate than it ever has. Time is running short, billions of souls are lost, and Jesus will return Soon! We've definatly got our work cut out for us.

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3rd Day Studios

"So many laughing at Jesus,"
"Well the funniest thing that He's done,"
"Is love this poor stubborn rebellious world,"
"While the hate for Him just goes on."

If anyone has anything else to add, feel free to speak up!!
Share your feelings and ideas!
God Bless,
Max

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He that thinketh by the inch, yet talketh by the yard, deserveth to be kicketh by the foot!

quote:

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I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." That is a big signal arrow for me.

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Yeah that's a good verse there. It says that He'll keep us out of that hour. Not help use endure through it or protect us during it but "keep us out of it" Praise His Name!

It's a horrible thing for those who will go through it. You can just look at things occuring today and see all the pieces fitting together. The be-headings, just awful. Jerusalem is a stumbling block to all nations. Which is incredible. And for the first time since before Christ was born, the main language of Israel is the pure lip of Hebrew, which I believe was also a prophesy for last days.

My Pastor was talking with a Rabbi in Israel a few years ago, and he told us that the Rabbi told him that they have the Ark of the Covenant, they have the clothing and other things made, and they are training young men who will perform the ceremonies in the new Temple.

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3rd Day Studios

"So many laughing at Jesus,"
"Well the funniest thing that He's done,"
"Is love this poor stubborn rebellious world,"
"While the hate for Him just goes on."

------------------
He that thinketh by the inch, yet talketh by the yard, deserveth to be kicketh by the foot!

quote:

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You notice that the church is not mentioned, and in fact, from Revelation 4 - 18 the church is not mentioned

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The "antichrist" is not mentioned either. Perhaps he was raptured too? Just because a certain word is not used, does not mean what that word represents is not present. Alternative words are used, such as "saints", etc.

quote:

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ALSO : BIG POINT!!! Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kepy My command to preserve, I will also keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." That is a big signal arrow for me.

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Three points:
1. this was originally to the church in Philadelphia. If it did not mean 'rapture' for them, scripture doesn't change meaning and mean 'rapture' for us.
2. the verse speaks of God's protection, but doesn't specify in what form that protection takes place
3. Even if it DOES mean a removal of the church, it does not specify that this will take place 7 years prior to Christ's return, but only for "the hour of trial". This may refer to the short time during the day, after the trib, when Christ returns to destroy the antichrist and his followers at armageddon.

Brandon said:

quote:

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Yeah that's a good verse there. It says that He'll keep us out of that hour. Not help use endure through it or protect us during it but "keep us out of it"

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Actually, not to belabour the point, but the word "out" does not appear. The word "from" DOES appear, but it's translated from the same general-purpose preposition Greek word "ek" that is translated as "in" a few verses later in verse 18.

Hope I didn't stir the pot too much.

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Brian

the scriptures i base it off is matthew 24, and marks account in mark 13, both are long, the biggest amount of detailed end times scriptures in one place (well in overall context, revelation has more as well), and also its very clear and simple words, and from the mouth of Jesus himself as well.. so i go on that.. it shows what happens/why it happens and what order.

so first lets go and read those chapters

next i want to say, what is the purpose of history continueing for so long? well the bible clear states in various places about God's long suffering and wish that none would perish.. When the gospel has been preached to all enthic groups and the fullness of the church is complete, history has no reason to go on anymore and the end will come.

quote:

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matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

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anyway in matthew 24 here, jesus lists all the usual things like wars, earthquakes/ famines etc.. PERSECUTION... a very important point.

quote:

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matthew 24 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

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it saddens me how many christians look as the rapture as something that will just happen before anything gets difficult or they have to suffer, as christians , if we are following Christ as we should, rather than living for our own purposes and comfort, we WILL BE PERSECUTED.. so whether you go through the trib or not.. prepare for PERSECUTION, prepare to stand up for Christ and the gospel , with a likelyhood that you will be matyred for it. and know that God has given us the grace and will give us grace sufficent to bear such sufferings for His sake, He even promises in the same set of scriptures (in mark one) that the Holy Spirit will give us all the words we need to say in those circumstances. But don't be a foolish virgin - prepare yourself for such persecutions, so that when the day comes , you will stand strong and not be counted amoung those who will fall away from the faith (disclaimer here: your salvataion is safe - don't be afraid, perfect love casts out all fear).
Also another interesting scripture is the last "those who stand firm to the end" will be saved.. doesn't say "those that hold out to the 'rapture' or such..

then it talks about the tribulation starting with the abomination that cause tribulation, and telling the listenings that on that day to flee - talking to christians! (though i can understand it just being used in the jewish context also).. however it goes on to say

quote:

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For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

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then it goes on to say about false christs, sun,moon and stars darkened etc, the sign of the son of man appearing and Jesus coming back in the clouds. - this is the 2nd coming - after the tribulation.

quote:

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At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

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quote:

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40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

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now back to the letters to the churches in revelations..
its only to one - philadelphia that God says he will spare them from the tribulation.. Sadly the majority of hte western church in far more laodicean than philadelphian.. and how does God spare them, maybe through matyrdom? or some sort of miraculous protection even? i don't know, but its not enough to make a doctrine of pretrib to put our hope in. I have hope in Jesus enough, and know that on earth i will suffer for Him and gospel in one way or another, as saints and apostles have over these mellenia, But nobody and nothing can take his gift away from me, nor my destiny, so i am at peace with tribulation if neccisary, and even if not tribulation, at least alot of PERSECUTION and all men hating me because of Jesus.

also in the start of matt 25, it has the parable of the 10 virgins.
it starts with
"at that time (the time of the end, jesus's return as in matt 24) the kingom of heaven will be like 10 virgins"....
and ends in
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. "
which shows this parable is a warning to us for how to be prepared for the end times, i don't think that believing pretrib is neccisarily wrong at all, however if it gives you a false sense of not needing to prepare yourself and lets you be like a foolish virgin, then pretrib rature doctine can be dangerous.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited October 05, 2004).]

quote:

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Actually, not to belabour the point, but the word "out" does not appear. The word "from" DOES appear, but it's translated from the same general-purpose preposition Greek word "ek" that is translated as "in" a few verses later in verse 18.

Hope I didn't stir the pot too much.

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That's cool you didn't stir the pot too much. The Greek preposition translated "from" is ek, and this preposition means out of.

quote:

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The "antichrist" is not mentioned either. Perhaps he was raptured too? Just because a certain word is not used, does not mean what that word represents is not present. Alternative words are used, such as "saints", etc.

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I do understand your point, but "antichrist" is not mentioned 19 times in Revelation 1-3 either I don't think that word "antichrist" is in Revelation at all. In Revelation the only time we see the Church on the earth is before Revelation 4:1. And after the tribulation is over.

Klumsy:

quote:

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I don't think that believing pretrib is neccisarily wrong at all, however if it gives you a false sense of not needing to prepare yourself and lets you be like a foolish virgin, then pretrib rature doctine can be dangerous.

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I'd think that the thought of Jesus returning at any second should motivate us believers to be ready at anytime, I remember reading a parable about the wicked servant who said "my master is delying His coming" and began to drink with drunkards and stuff. The Master returned, and the wicked servant was caught off guard, and thrown into hell.

quote:

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for the sake of the elect - the chosen - Christians, God shorted the length of the tribution.. so these elect at least are in the tribulation. and the tribulation is just a short time.
then it goes on to say about false christs, sun,moon and stars darkened etc, the sign of the son of man appearing and Jesus coming back in the clouds. - this is the 2nd coming - after the tribulation.

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Yes I believe that there will be Christians in the trib, those who are left behind and later become Christians.

To Everyone:

I'm not going to argue my point here too much. I totally understand your reasons for posting your points. You don't want any of us to be taken off guard by being in the trib. And that's very understandable. I am prepared to endure tribulation and I pray that all my brothers and sisters in Christ are as well. Even if we are taken in the rapture (which I firmly believe), who says that we won't endure tribulation here in this age? Like I said earlier, pray for pre, prepare for post. But here is another reason why I believe that there will be a Pre-Trib rapture. Look at what Paul wrote here to the church at Thessalonia:

quote:

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2 Thessalonians 2:1  ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him;
2  to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;
3  ¶let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
4  he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.
5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6  And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
7  For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
8  And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
9  even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10  and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
12  that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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See what's happening here? Someone had told the Thessalonians that the persecution they were enduring was the Day of the Lord. Someone had even sent them a fake letter with Pauls name attached to it, saying that this was the Day of the Lord. But back in 1 Thessalonians by what Paul had already told them, then if this was truly the Day of the Lord then they had missed the catching away, or "Rapture". He tells them that the Day of the Lord won't begin until two things have occurred

1. The Man of Lawlessness will come onto the scene.
2. The rebellion will occur (Greek translated "falling away") which is "The Apostate Woman" in Rev.

It's my understanding that when the Antichrist makes his appearance, then so will the False Prophet, with his world wide religious system, which I believe will be a twisted gospel - ("Revelation 13:11  ¶And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like unto lamb, and he spake as a dragon")

Who is the one holding back the power of the Antichrist? It is the Holy Spirit through the Church. When the Church is removed from this world,... my oh my what an ugly situation it will be.

Here is a list that I read in a book that has a lot of evidence pointing to reasons for pre-trib:

quote:

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1. The chronological order of 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5.

2. The statements in 2 Thessalonians indicating that the believers knew that if they were in the Day of the Lord, they would have missed the gathering unto Christ.

3. The statements of the 2 Thessalonians 2 which indicate the Antichrist and the Apostate One will come on the scene at the beginning of the Day of the Lord coupled with Revevation 6 which indicates the appearance of the Antichrist after the church is already in heaven in Chapters 4-5.

4. The discussion of Daniels 70 7's, indicating that this particular time has to do with the Jews and Jerusalem.

5. The promise to the church at Philadelphia that they would be kept out of that time.

6. The difference between Jesus coming when "Every eye will see Him," and His coming "as a thief in the night."

7. The similarities with Lot being delivered before the judgement fell.

8. The usage of the word "church" and "churches" 19 times in Revelation 1-3 and not after.

9. The scene in heaven of Revelation 4 and 5.

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To all who don't think that the rapture is pre-trib, I pray that one day I can say "I told ya so!" On the way up! "I'm sure you'll sing along with me" But you know what's most important?

quote:

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9 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
12 that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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People are slipping into eternity every day, how many people die per day? How many die without knowing Jesus Christ? It's very sad but I'm sure that it's a large number. As I'm writing this someone has probably been welcomed into Hell... imagine that... and it's over for him\her, no more chances... my main point for posting this is not to force my beliefs upon anyone, I know that we all (or most) agree here on the main fundamentals of Christianity, that Jesus came to set people free, and to save souls from death and hell, and to bring them over to eternal life with Him! So that is my main reason for posting this. My Brothers, my Sisters,... come, let us fulfill the great commission!

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3rd Day Studios

"So many laughing at Jesus,"
"Well the funniest thing that He's done,"
"Is love this poor stubborn rebellious world,"
"While the hate for Him just goes on."

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited October 06, 2004).]

quote:

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That's cool you didn't stir the pot too much.

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Cool.

quote:

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The Greek preposition translated "from" is ek, and this preposition means out of.

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It can mean "out of". But it is a general purpose preposition, sort of like "of" in English. In English, "of" can mean derived from, belonging to, caused by, away from, composed with, containing, before, during, by, etc. Likewise, "ek" is translated in various places in the NT as of, from, out of, by, on, with, in, among, by reason of, over, for, through, at, etc.

quote:

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I do understand your point, but "antichrist" is not mentioned 19 times in Revelation 1-3 either I don't think that word "antichrist" is in Revelation at all. In Revelation the only time we see the Church on the earth is before Revelation 4:1. And after the tribulation is over.

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Just as "antichrist" is not used in Revelation, the word "church" is never used in Revelation to refer to the universal body of believers. It is always used in reference to a specific congregation ("the seven churches", "the church of Ephesus", etc. The words used for believers in general, i.e. "saints", etc., IS used throughout Revelation (as with the rest of the NT).

quote:

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Yes I believe that there will be Christians in the trib, those who are left behind and later become Christians.

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There is no passages that talk of anyone being "left behind" and later becoming Christians.

quote:

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I'm not going to argue my point here too much. I totally understand your reasons for posting your points. You don't want any of us to be taken off guard by being in the trib. And that's very understandable. I am prepared to endure tribulation and I pray that all my brothers and sisters in Christ are as well. Even if we are taken in the rapture (which I firmly believe), who says that we won't endure tribulation here in this age? Like I said earlier, pray for pre, prepare for post.

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Great comments! I fully agree.

quote:

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Someone had told the Thessalonians that the persecution they were enduring was the Day of the Lord. Someone had even sent them a fake letter with Pauls name attached to it, saying that this was the Day of the Lord. But back in 1 Thessalonians by what Paul had already told them, then if this was truly the Day of the Lord then they had missed the catching away, or "Rapture". He tells them that the Day of the Lord won't begin until two things have occurred.

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Then why didn't he just tell them "It can't be, you haven't been raptured"? Instead, he exhorted them to watch for the antichrist and the falling away - pointless advice if they were to be raptured before these things happened.

quote:

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To all who don't think that the rapture is pre-trib, I pray that one day I can say "I told ya so!" On the way up! "I'm sure you'll sing along with me"

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I hope you're right. However, I don't think you are.

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Brian

That is my personal belief. I just don't see why he would let his church go through the tribulation. If most of the people on Earth will either die or be turned to follow the anti-christ, why would he allow more people to turn from believers to non-believers. I don't think (correct me if I am wrong) that it says only non-believers will be made to believe the delusions. Enough on that though.

If we assume that what's written only applies to that church, then hey, that church is safe. I don't see why the rest of us would care. Ha ha, I'm sorry but I find it amusing.

I hope we will all remain friends and respect each other's opinions. I know I am still friends with you and I respect your opinions. I pray and hope that it is pre-trib, but it is the big guy's call and I hope we all remember that!
God Bless,
Max

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He that thinketh by the inch, yet talketh by the yard, deserveth to be kicketh by the foot!

quote:

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Then why didn't he just tell them "It can't be, you haven't been raptured"? Instead, he exhorted them to watch for the antichrist and the falling away - pointless advice if they were to be raptured before these things happened.

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That is what he said, just not in those words. He told them not to be concerned about the coming of Christ, and thier "gathering unto Him" And remember what Paul said in 1st Thessalonians? I believe that he is saying that if this was truly the Day of the Lord, then they had in fact missed the "catching away" So Paul goes on to tell them that it is not the Day of the Lord, and they had not missed the catching away. I don't think he "exhorted" them to watch for the antichrist and falling away, he told them that this is not the Day of the Lord because the appearance of the antichrist and the falling away had not happened.

So if we ever do see those two, then we would be in tribulation. But I've never read anywhere in the WORD where it says to watch for the antichrist, but I have read that we should watch for Jesus.

quote:

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pointless advice if they were to be raptured before these things happened.

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I don't think any of us are in a position to make that call (about it being pointless)

quote:

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There is no passages that talk of anyone being "left behind" and later becoming Christians.

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Revelation makes it clear that people will receive Christ during the Tribulation period. And it also makes it clear that there is a Rapture that occurs before the Tribulation begins.

In Revelation there is plenty about salvation, like those who are martyerd, because of thier witness for Christ, the 144,000 Jews sealed with the Holy Spirit. In fact it not only says that the Jews will have thier blinders knocked off, it also says that sons of Abraham will! Which brings a tear to my eye... the sons of Abraham working together for a change, fighting the antichrist, and they are saved by Jesus Christ, ... so awesome!

It won't be easy to be saved in the tribulation tho', there will be so much deception, and the devil will have a monsterous stronghold on the entire world.

As for the rapture, look at the Chronology of Revelation, John hears a voice say "Come Up Here!" and John is caught up to heaven, and he views what happens in Chapters 4-5, and notice this. Towards the end of Chapter 5, there are 24 elders who are sitting on thrones clothed in white rainment and with crowns of gold. These are not Angels btw, Angels are never called elders. And at the start of chapter 6,... the great tribulation begins.

I think this is one of the most open passages of evidence for the pre-trib rapture:

1st Thessalonians 4:13-5:10

quote:

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1 Thessalonians 4:13  ¶But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1  ¶But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6  ¶Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

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I think that's incredible and overwhelming evidence there.
As you see above, immediatley after the church is caught away, the Day of the Lord begins, like a theif in the night.

Also look at this passage of scripture:

quote:

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Matthew 24:37  And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
38  For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39  and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
40  Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left:
41  two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left.
42  Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh.

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In the above verses notice that people going about business as usual, they are eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, this is what it was like in Noahs day just before the flood. In other words, business as usual. Jesus says that this is how it will be the day that he returns. I have no idea how business can go about as usual at the end of the Tribulation. In fact if you read the end of Revelation, things are not usual at all.

Also another brief point. I know some say that because the people who were in Noah's day were taken away into destruction, that that's what is meant here. But it certainly is not, the word "took" in verse 39 is a totally different word in the Greek than the words "taken" in verses 40 and 41. The Greek translation is for "took" in verse 39 is "airo", which means to be taken away to destruction. But the words "taken" in verses 40 and 41 stand for the greek word "paralambano" which means to be "Received Alongside", Praise His Name!

With so much devestation happening in the Tribulation, and certainly with Armageddon at the end of it, I don't see "business as usual" happening then.

------------------
3rd Day Studios

"So many laughing at Jesus,"
"Well the funniest thing that He's done,"
"Is love this poor stubborn rebellious world,"
"While the hate for Him just goes on."

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited October 07, 2004).]

I hope you realize I'm not trying to "argue", but I do enjoy these types of discussions and explaining how I see things.

quote:

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I believe that he is saying that if this was truly the Day of the Lord, then they had in fact missed the "catching away" So Paul goes on to tell them that it is not the Day of the Lord, and they had not missed the catching away.

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But he doesn't say that. The chapter starts with a concern about the coming of Jesus and our gathering unto him - that they Thessalonians were concerned that all this was upon them. Paul told them that would not happen until the falling away and the son of perdition is revealed.

quote:

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But I've never read anywhere in the WORD where it says to watch for the antichrist, but I have read that we should watch for Jesus.

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Well, I think 2 Thess 2 is one place, for the reason above, and also for this reason: 2 Thess 2:8 says Christ will destroy the antichrist with his "epiphaneia" - an "epiphaneia" is a visible, physical revealing of Christ. There are only two talked about in scripture: one that already happened 2000 years ago, and one that is yet to come. We are told in 1 Tim 6:14 to be faithful until the "epiphaneia".

quote:

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Revelation makes it clear that people will receive Christ during the Tribulation period. And it also makes it clear that there is a Rapture that occurs before the Tribulation begins.

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Revelation does NOT "make it clear" that there is a Rapture before the tribulation. If it was clear, there would be no disagreement. No rapture is mentioned prior to the trib. I note that you, like many, look to John 4:1 and the "come up here!" spoken to John. This is so John could see and record the scene in heaven. Any other interpretation is entirely allegorical and non-literal. John is told to "come here" other places in Rev, like 17:1 and 21:9, yet we don't interpret those as the church bouncing around the universe as well.

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Towards the end of Chapter 5, there are 24 elders who are sitting on thrones clothed in white rainment and with crowns of gold. These are not Angels btw, Angels are never called elders.

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I don't understand how this supports pretrib. There are people in heaven right now.

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1st Thessalonians 4:13-5:10
As you see above, immediatley after the church is caught away, the Day of the Lord begins, like a theif in the night.

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Sorry, but I don't see it. It never says anything about "after". In fact, it says that it will only be like a thief in the night for those who are of the darkness - those of us who are of the day will not be caught off guard, as we are watching for it.

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In the above verses notice that people going about business as usual, they are eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, this is what it was like in Noahs day just before the flood. In other words, business as usual.

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I don't think that means "business as usual". At Jesus' time, and even today in many circles, the idea was that at Noah's time there were serious abominations going on in society, specifically in the areas of eating and drinking, and marrying. Cannibalism and blood-drinking (eating and drinking), and "going after strange flesh" (possibly even the abomination of fallen angels marrying human wives) are what the Jews and early Christians believed were going on in Noah's day, and this (and other) extreme wickedness is why God wiped out the earth with a flood. In Matt 24:37-39, I don't think Jesus is talking about "business as usual", but about extreme, rampant sinfulness.

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Also another brief point. I know some say that because the people who were in Noah's day were taken away into destruction, that that's what is meant here. But it certainly is not, the word "took" in verse 39 is a totally different word in the Greek than the words "taken" in verses 40 and 41. The Greek translation is for "took" in verse 39 is "airo", which means to be taken away to destruction. But the words "taken" in verses 40 and 41 stand for the greek word "paralambano" which means to be "Received Alongside", Praise His Name!

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I actually agree with all that. However, none of this says it happens before the tribulation. Noah didn't leave 7 years early, he was "taken" up and the wicked were "taken" away on the same day.

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Brian

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But he doesn't say that. The chapter starts with a concern about the coming of Jesus and our gathering unto him - that they Thessalonians were concerned that all this was upon them. Paul told them that would not happen until the falling away and the son of perdition is revealed.

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hmm... that's not the way I see it, it seems to me that they are worried that they have missed something, not worried about the future coming tho', I'd think that would make them kind of joyful "knowing" that Christ's coming is around the corner.

quote:

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Revelation does NOT "make it clear" that there is a Rapture before the tribulation. If it was clear, there would be no disagreement. No rapture is mentioned prior to the trib. I note that you, like many, look to John 4:1 and the "come up here!" spoken to John. This is so John could see and record the scene in heaven. Any other interpretation is entirely allegorical and non-literal. John is told to "come here" other places in Rev, like 17:1 and 21:9, yet we don't interpret those as the church bouncing around the universe as well.

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Yes that's true, I believe that Revelation is a "picture" book, it's story is told in a special apocalyptic form of literature, it uses symbolic imagery to describe what is happening in a more emotional way. So yeah I think that most of Revelation should be read as non literal. Example: Death and Hades won't ride to the earth on a literal horse and slay people "or at least I don't think so".

Another thing to note, the trib. is the time of Jacobs trouble, it has absolutley nothing to do with the Church. If you look at Daniel and the 70 7's you'll see that there is one more 7 year period remaining before the times of the gentiles ends. This last 7 year period will begin when the treaty between the antichrist and the Jews is made.

We don't know the day Jesus will return, yet in Daniel and Revelation it is exactly 3 1/2 years after the antichrist is killed. All of the armies of the world are gathered in Armegeddon ready to make war against not each other or Jerusalem, but against God Himself! They will know the very day that He is to return by the scriptures. But when Jesus comes with his elect, He won't even have to lift a finger. All of the worlds military technology and power will be destroyed by a single Word from His mouth! He's so awesome! This is not the Rapture, the rapture is the one where no one knows the day or the hour. But here the armies of the earth know the day that He will return. This is mans final organized rebellion under satan against God. I think that's know as "Babylon". Well there is one more, in the millinieum, after 1,000 years in the bottomless pit, that wicked devil still hadn't quit, but he'll quit after that one, ... more so he'll be forced to lol, forever's a long time

quote:

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I don't think that means "business as usual". At Jesus' time, and even today in many circles, the idea was that at Noah's time there were serious abominations going on in society, specifically in the areas of eating and drinking, and marrying. Cannibalism and blood-drinking (eating and drinking), and "going after strange flesh" (possibly even the abomination of fallen angels marrying human wives) are what the Jews and early Christians believed were going on in Noah's day, and this (and other) extreme wickedness is why God wiped out the earth with a flood. In Matt 24:37-39, I don't think Jesus is talking about "business as usual", but about extreme, rampant sinfulness.

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Yeah those are some pretty horrid acts there, but I think one is quite impossible. Celestial beings and humans cannot mate. Angels cannot procreate, they are not physical beings. The number of angels, both holy and fallen remain constant. But I guess this would be in another topic, I don't suggest it though lol. We do disagree on some things here. But that's alright

God Bless!

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3rd Day Studios

"So many laughing at Jesus,"
"Well the funniest thing that He's done,"
"Is love this poor stubborn rebellious world,"
"While the hate for Him just goes on."

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited October 08, 2004).]

I feel the issue of prophecy and end times is very important. It is something that christians should be interested in and should be studying. 1/3 of the bible is prophecy, God would not devoted 1/3 of his revealed word to something that doens't matter. Jesus and the apostles made it very clear that we should know the signs of the times we live in and the signs of the Lord's return. Also, interestingly, revelation is the only book in the bible that begins with a specific promise of blessing just for reading the book.

Secondly, I tend to 'get into' discussions, especially on issues I'm really interested in, like this one. I want to say in advance that for me its not about argument, or being beligerant, this is something I love studying and love talking about, even when that is disagreeing.

I'm believe that "post-trib" is the correct biblical understanding, and I think that much of the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture is based on taking things out of context and using bad assumptions or circular logic. I don't mean that to sound offensive to anyone who holds the pre-trib position, and hope it isn't.

For example, the comment that was made about Paul's teachings in thessalonians that the thessalonian church had received a false letter telling them that there current persecution was the day of the lord thus indicating that since the rapture comes before the day of the lord, they must have missed the rapture. There is no historical or documentary evidence that such a letter was ever sent, it is simply an assumption on the part of people who believe in the pre-trib rapture, based on their belief in the pre-trib rapture, and thus also supporting their belief (which is a circular argument). All that is known is that an unknown (to us) false teaching had gotten into the church at Thessaly which caused them to believe that they had missed the rapture. It is just as likely (more likely in my opinion, which is of course biased) that the teaching which was causing them trouble was in fact the pre-tribulation rapture. Someone teaching them that the rapture was supposed to come before they faced suffering. As a historical side note, this infact did happen in China. The church in china by and large taught the pre-tribulation rapture and when communism took over the horrible persecutions the christians faced convinced many of them convinced them that they had missed the coming of the Lord and as a result they gave up their faith. This account was related to Cory Tenboom by an exiled leader of the chinese church and she in turn related it in the forward of her book.

Also, using the chronological order of 1st Thess 4 & 5 makes an assumption I don't believe is valid. The assumption is that "the day of the Lord" which is coming as a theif in the night, is the same as the tribulation. This is not correct. It must be understood that the tribulation is not the judgement of God, it is persecution poured out by Satan through his tools the prince and the false prophet. The day of the Lord is when Jesus returns and brings judgement with him, upon all the ungodly. Never once in scripture is the tribulation ever said to be the judgement and wrath of God. On the contrary it is indicated that the tribulation is persecution perpetrated by the forces of evil.
That necessarily raises the question, who is being persecuted? Some Pre-trib teachers have recognized this fact and tried to make the distinction that its the Jews who are being persecuted, because the church isn't there. It is true that the jews will be persecuted greatly at this time (this is undeniable from scripture). However, I think, its also pretty clear that most of the church also suffers this persecution.

One of the great problems with the pre-trib rapture is that it requires two comings of Jesus. It requires a secret coming to rapture the church and then an open coming to judge. The pre-trib view answers this by taking different scriptures that describe different aspects of the coming of Christ and saying that they describe two seperate advents. Thus the "every eye will see him" coming, and the "theif in the night coming". However, these are not two different events, they are refrences to how different people will be affected by the same event. The descriptive term "theif in the night" is used more than once in scripture, but as a general rule only one of its uses is ever quoted. The reason for this is that in its other use, paul follows it immediately in the next verse by saying "but it should not be as a theif in the night to you brothers because you walk in the light, not in the darkness". This indicates that paul is talking about being surprised by the event. He is not saying at all, that when he comes like a theif in the night no one is going to know it.. rather what he's saying is the same thing Jesus himself said... when he comes it is going to catch all the unbelievers totaly by surprise, like a theif. They will be sitting around eating and drinking, not worrying about their sin, or aware of anything, and BOOM I'm going to appear and they will be judged.
It is interesting to note that the passage where Jesus speaks about "as it was in the days of noah so it shall be in those days", he finishes out by saying "one shall be taken and the other left". That phrase and imagery is often used to support the pre-trib secret rapture, but in the context of the verse its clear that the people who are taken are the wicked who are taken away by the judgement of God. This also fits with Jesus parable of the wheat and chaff in which the unrighteous are taken away and burned while the righteous remain. In fact, in every parable that Jesus tells when it gets to the end, its the unrighteous who are taken out, not the righteous.

The idea that revelation chapters 4-5 indicate that the church has been raptured, is again, in my opinion, circular reasoning. There is no real instance in the text itself which suggests that, it is simply interpeted that way because people already believe the view point and are trying to prove it. Personaly, right now, I'd even say I don't realy believe the antichrist is personaly mentioned or described in chapter 6... but I'd have to think more about that

Brandon pointed out the example of Lot in which he was removed before the judgement of God fell, but we can also look to the flood in which case God protected them in the very midst of his judgement.

In revelation the church of philedelphia is promised protection from the great tribulation, but none of the other churches are. Yet its clear in the letters that all but one of the other churches deffinetly contain true believers. Together with that, the letter to philadelphia indicates that they are a small church. The implication to me is that the majority of the church will not escape persecution during the tribulation.

Daniel's prophecy about the 70 7's was given to the Jews and specially concerns the jews, but, that in no way means the church won't be hear. No prophecy in the Old testament overtly or explicitly mentions the church and many say specificly that they are to the house of Israel or judah or the Israelites in general etc. It could be argued that some forshadow the church, but you could argue that as easily of daniel as any other.
The result of many pre-trib teachings has been a seperation of "the church" and israel. While replacement theology is not correct (ie the church is not israel) within the church there is no seperation between jew and gentile. A Jewish believer is part of the same body as a gentile believer. There is only one body of Christ.

oops.. I've lost track of time and now I'm late
hope I didn't ruffle any feathers. until the next time

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

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The Stank pwns you!

http://singinst.org/

http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0133.html?printable=1

http://www.iridis.com/glivar/Technological_singularity

For a full book on the subject. Especially look at Ch. 23.

http://www.edge.org/documents/ThirdCulture/d-Contents.html

Anyways, the concept of the Singularity is rather vague since philosophers disagree on what exactly is supposed to occur. I suppose you could call the Internet a lesser Singularity since it redefined economics and communications. For the most part these ideas are still in the realm of the Sci-Fi channel.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited December 19, 2004).]

I believe that in a few decades we'll have superhuman intelligence (either upgraded humans or an AI by itself), but as we near that point, I think it'll become a lot clearer as to what the immediate future will be like (it's called a Singularity, named after the event horizon of a black hole, as in, we can't see what's after it until we're there). I think it'll be a gradual - fast-paced, yes - change, but I don't see us just waking up one morning and BAM whoa I didn't see any of this coming.

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I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

quote:

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for the sake of the elect - the chosen - Christians, God shorted the length of the tribution.. so these elect at least are in the tribulation. and the tribulation is just a short time.

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What if by "the elect" it means the Jews...aren't the Jews God's chosen people? Maybe he chose to shorten the length of the tribulation so they wouldn't have to suffer, but wants to give them another chance to accept Him once they realize that Christ is the Messiah...

Just my thoughts...

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Vita sine Ieso est mors.
=Life without Jesus is death.

Sciuri non sunt boni edere.
=Squirrels are not good to eat.

[This message has been edited by mellonamin (edited February 13, 2005).]

your proposal that "the elect", used in the refrence you quoted, refers not to "the church" but to the jews is one of the standard interpetations. It arises primarily out of the "dispensationalist" school of thought. Under this view certain sections of the scriptures do not apply to gentile believers, but only to Jews, and visa versa.
In a short outline, the dispensationalist doctrine has seized upon the words "dispensation of grace" used by paul to describe the difference in how God deals with people in the new covenant as opposed to how he dealt with them under the old mosaic covenant. Dispensationalism builds off of this a series of dispensations going back to Adam, under each one a different principle has been the guiding rule of God's relationship to man. Each dispensation ends when a new one begins. They believe the current dispensation (dispensation of grace) is "the church age" and that the church age will end when the gentile believers are raptured, and after that point God will bring in the Israelites again during the tribulation.

In my opinion, dispensationalism has recognized a few basic things in scripture and ran wild with them. In the end it has produced alot of bad teachings because it imposed alot of human theory onto scripture.
For example.. in matthew when it relates Jesus' words from the 'olivet discourse' (the part where he tells his disciples about the destruction of the temple and the end of the age) he says this phrase "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days you shall see the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds and his angels shall gather together the elect from the four corners of the world". This would seem on the surface to be a description of the rapture... but it clearly places it after the tribulation. As a result dispensationalism has been forced to say that this scripture only applies to the Jews and not the gentile church. As a result most dispensationalist doctrine teaches that the entire book of matthew does not apply to the gentiles and is written only for the jews. Then the problem becomes that both mark and luke have very similar accounts to matthew, so some dispensationalists go further and say that they also only apply to the jews. Many of the dispensationalists I've talked with, really only believe the gospel of john and the epistles of paul and john are the only books that apply to the gentile church and all the other books are meant only for the jews. It has thus become the standard doctrine of the dispensationalist that there is actually a seperate gospel for jews and gentiles. Which is, in my opinion, very contrary to what Paul has to say about the gospel and about the church.

A much better view of scripture is what might be called a covenant view (there is something called covenant theology but I'm not sure at the moment what that teaches so I'm not sure its what I'm talking about).
In scripture God deals with man primarily via covenant. He makes covenants which are legally binding arrangements that have conditions and promises. I will lay out for you the covenants that I am aware of in scripture. The first covenant in the bible is between God and Adam in which God gives adam dominion over all the earth and all the animals of the earth and the right to "subdue" the earth. One of the conditions of this covenant was that man "be fruitful and multiply". This covenant (unlike some others) has no ending conditions, at least as long as the earth endures. The second covenant made in the bible was made between God and Eve. Many bible scholars may not recognize this as a covenant but I tihnk it was. God laid conditions on eve as part of the curse, but also he made a promise that one of her seed (this is significant because in all the rest of scripture only males are recognized to have seed) would crush the head of the serpent. This covenant is the first promise of messiah.
The third covenant in the scripture is Noah after the flood. In this covenant God establishes the ground work of human government. Prior to this time God had not delegated to man the authority to punnish crimes or sin (which is why Cain was not punnished for murdering abel). In the covenant with noah, however, God established that mankind would have the authority to punnish evil doers. The reason for this is that the flood was caused by man's unrestrained evil. God set up human government to restrain evil. The covenant with noah, like that of Adam applies to all mankind (because all mankind are descended from them) and have no ending conditions other than the ending of the earth itself.
The fourth covenant in scripture is that of abraham. This is the second messianic covenant (after eve's). In this covenant God promised abraham that he would not only make of him a great nation but that through abraham he would bless the entire world. In other words he promised abraham that the messiah would come from his line of descendants. God's conditions on abraham were that he serve God, and that he teach his children to serve God. this covenant had an outward sign or symbol that was circumcision. This covenant established the nation of Israel, and also this is the covenant by which we as gentile believers are grafted in to. The fulfillment of this covenant is the coming of messiah, and rather than ceasing to be, this covenant is renewed in the coming of Messiah.
the fifth covenant in scripture is the mosaic covenant, this is probably the most famous. This is the covenant of the ten commandments and all the israelite priesthood, the sacrifices, the levitical laws and so on. This is the covenant of the Law. This covenant was given for a couple of purposes. First it was given to reveal sin. The law shows us, like a mirror, our sinful and corrupt nature. As paul says it convicts us of sin and makes us guilty. Secondly this covenant was given as a symbolic sermon, a teaching to point to messiah and God's ultimate plan of redemption. Thirdly this covenant was given to forcibly turn israel into a pure nation, on the outside. God planned to dwell physicaly among the Israelites in the tabernacle and the temple. He could not do so and yet tolerate even the appearence of sin. This is why the punnishments of mosaic law are so unbelievable harsh. Even the smallest sin had to be purged or hidden. It is an important point that all of the temple rituals dealing with attonement, under the mosaic covenant, either conceal the law so that God does not see our guilt, or they cover us on the outside concealing our sin (what is inside). This covenant was given for very specific purposes and when those purposes passed away, so did this covenant. It was also never given to anyone but the jews. This covenant also did not offer salvation. It should be noted also that according to Jesus own teachings, at least some of the mosaic covenant was given specificly because of the Israelites hardness of heart.
The sixth covenant is the covenant God made with David in which God promised david that a member of his royal line would rule forever on the throne of Israel.
the seventh and final covenant is the new covenant of Jesus blood. There are several significant differences between this covenant and the mosaic covenant. The mosaic covenant covered sin and was outward cleansing. In the new covenant we are told to "drink the blood of christ" someting absolutely prohibited through out all scripture (to drink blood). the point being that this covenant cleanses us on the inside. It doesn't conceal or hide, it washes you clean on the inside. Also, God's physical presence no longer dwells among the israelites because his presense is within us his people. His Holy Spirit lives within us and we have become his temple (both us individualy and the church as a whole). Because the Holy Spirit now lives within us we no longer need the law to point us to messiah or to teach us righteousness because the very Spirit of God is within us to teach us those things.
The end result is that the covenant of moses, as hebrews puts it "is even now beginning to pass away".
Now, the new covenant of which we are a part, is something new.. it is not simply one of the old covenants.. it is a new thing.. and the church is a new thing.. however, it is also true that the new covenant is a fulfillment and continuation of the abrahamic covenant, and thus the church is part of the continuation of the congregation of Israel which was established in Abraham.
At this point there are two extremes that generaly arise in christian doctrine.. dispensationalism and "replacement theology" dispensationalism argues that the jews and the church are totaly seperate entities, that they have their own seperate gospels and in effect virtually their own seperate churches. On the other hand replacement theology argues that the nation of israel has been totaly replaced by the church in every respect and is now irelevant. Neither of these extremes is correct.

There is only one gospel, one Holy Spirit and One baptism and one church. Paul said that Jesus died to "break down the middle wall of seperation between jew and gentile and make of the two, one new man." Paul also said "there is no other foundation besides Jesus Christ upon which a man can build." The point of all this is that there is only, has only ever been, and will only ever be One Body of Christ. We must be baptized into that body, live by communion in that body and it is that body which Jesus is coming back to save. Within the body (church) there is no jew and no gentile because we are all considered children of Abraham's promise.
However, the new testament is also very clear that the physical nation of Israel has had a "veil" cast over their eyes because they refused to believe God. It clearly teaches that God will use their unbelief to bring in the gentiles into the body. The bible also clearly teaches that God will simultaneously use the gentiles to make the jews jealous. So there is a time period when most of the nation of Israel is prevented from joining the church because of their unbelief, and this will last until God has largely finished his harvest among the gentiles. The scriptures clearly promise that Israel will be brought back, but the teaching is not that they will be brought back seperately, but rather that they will be joined into the One body.

I believe, personaly, that this is the function of the two witnesses of revelation. I believe that one will be the apostle John, and I believe the other will be Elijah. John will be the witness to the church to restore the church to purity and unity after it has suffered the tribulation, Elijah will be the witness to the nation of israel to return them to the faith and join them together, the entire remaining populace as in one day, with the church.
Its also an important note that the great tribulation isn't the wrath of God. Most of what is described as the great tribulation in the bible is persecution of believers by the beast and the false prophet.

sorry about the excesive length of this post

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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Vita sine Ieso est mors.
=Life without Jesus is death.

Sciuri non sunt boni edere.
=Squirrels are not good to eat.

quote:

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Originally posted by mellonamin:
I agree, that was an excellent post!

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[This message has been edited by stacysangeltouch (edited February 16, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by stacysangeltouch (edited February 16, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by stacysangeltouch (edited February 16, 2005).]

Edited by Klumsy to correct the misquoting

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 22, 2005).]

There are a couple of things I'd like to say in response to your post. First off, I agree that most of the church today has lost track of very significant truths of both doctrine and practice. I don't want you to think that I am clinging to what I was taught or raised to believe because the truth is I have changed significantly on many areas of my faith. Of course there are many things that have I have not changed as well. These include my conviction that the Bible is the true, authoritative, and inspired word of God. That it should be taken literaly rather than figuratively unless the text itself pretty clearly indicates otherwise. My reliance upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ and his imputed righteousness to cleanse my sin, and also to make a way for me to seek righteousness. My belief and understanding of the virtues that God desires of his people. Virtues he desires us to embody.. to become, not merely to follow by wrote or out of habbit.
There are today two very distinct sides of the church which overarch all the multitude of other fractures and divisions within the church. One side I'd call "traditional" includes the catholics, the orthodox, some of the anglicans, lutherans and probably the reformed as well. The other side I would call the evangelical protestant church which includes baptist, pentecostal, non denominational, assemblies of God and churches of that nature. Both sides of the church have significant problems because, in a sense, they have each gone to opposite extremes and lost the wholeness of the faith.
Most of us here being protestant are well aware of the problems with the traditional churches. They have lost much of the personal side of the faith. For droves of members in these churches their faith is simply that they are a member of the church and follow the ritual. Their faith is not personal and has little impact in their lives. As a result of this they have lost much of the love of the faith, they don't reach out to the lost, they don't have passion for doing God's work.
Most of us, again as protestants, don't realize that we have also lost something. We have divorced ourselves from the roots of our faith and cut ourselves off from the heretige of the church. In a way we have seperated ourselves from the community of believers who have gone before. In doing so we have lost a great deal. We have lost doctrinal truths and truths about how we should worship that were from the very beginning of the church. As a result we have lost our love of truth itself. The evangelical church is shot through with humanism. On one side it is conforming itself to the society of this world giving in to social pressures. On the other side it is rife with bad teachings and false doctrines. The aspects of worship that were abandoned by the protestant evangelicals were those things which were designed to keep Jesus as the central point of our worship, as a result much of evangelical worship has become self centered. Its about how you feel, if you enjoy a service or not, if the experience satisfied your needs.
Much of the protestant dislike for catholic and orthodox doctrine is really a reaction against the practices of those churches which have become impersonal and lifeless. In that reaction we have gone to the opposite extreme and lost our understanding of the historical (and true) doctrines of the church. What was once a restoration of life and relationship to the impersonal and distant faith of the church has become self centered emotionalism.
This is the dichotemy of the whole thing.. you can't have Truth without love.. but you also can not have Love without Truth. both sides of the church are loosing both Truth and Love because they have gone to the extreme of one over the other.

Having said all that, here are some specific responses to issues you raised in your post. Because protestant evangelicals have so completely lost touch with the roots of our faith it has opened the door for many people to come in and spread untrue teachings about the roots of the church. Not just untrue in a doctrinal sense, but untrue in a historical and factual sense as well.
There is a popular set of teachings among some baptists, for example, which teach that the emperor Constantine the Great did not really become a christian and he purposely corrupted christianity with paganism by changing the scriptures, changing the sabbath day worship to Sunday (constantine had been a member of the cult of Sol Invictus "unconquered sun" before his conversion to christianity". They teach that constantine purposely divorced christianity from its jewish roots and turned it into a pagan church based on the mystery religions of ancient babylon. Some of the people in this group will also go so far as to deny the trinity because the council of nicea which defended the idea of the trinity was presided at by Constantine. They say that Constantine forced the trinity, which they claim is pagan, upon the church.
The problem here, doctrines aside, is that almost none of this is historicaly true. I wouldn't presume to pass judgement on whether or not Constantine's conversion was genuine or not because I'm not a judge of men's souls.
He did not, however, establish sunday worship, or significantly divorce the church from its Jewish roots as both of these things had already been done two centuries before Constantine lived. Constantine also did not establish the doctrine of the trinity. In fact constantine presided at the council of Nicea which included every christian bishop in the mediteranian world. At the council, out of literaly hundreds of bishops, only two voted against the trinity. The assembled bishops then wrote the nicean creed which has become the foundational creed of christian doctrine along with the apostles creed. The two opposing bishops were exiled by constantine in accordance with the wishes of the church. However, Constantine himself was not a trinitarian. His personal spiritual advisor was an anti-trinitarian so shortly after the council of Nicea Constantine reversed his decision, recalled the two bishops he had exiled and instead exiled Athanasius who was the leader of the bishops in favor of the trinity doctrine. Constantine himself died as an Arian (anti trinitarian) christian and his actions effectively sparked two generations of civil war in the empire between trinitarians and anti-trinitarians. It wasn't until Theodosious the Great again unified the empire that the conflict was resolved. Theodosious was trinitarian and by all accounts a good and pious man (if sometimes given to temper).
As for sunday worship and the divorcing of the church from its Jewish heretige. Sunday worship, as far as we know was practiced by the church from the days of the apostles on. There are two reasons we know this. First the Jews of their day constantly argued against christianity and one of their main criticisms was that christians did not keep the sabbath. The other reason we know this is because Ignatious, a student of the apostle John himself, wrote that the church worshiped on sunday. He said that the christians did keep the sabbath but not according to the jewish laws. They did not keep it by not working, rather they kept it by meditating on God and God's word. He went on to say that the church held its celebratory worship meeting on sunday. He wrote this in the begining of the second century.. shortly after 100 AD. Justin Martyr also wrote that the church gathered on sunday for worship. He, interestingly, made a comparison between sunday worship and circumcision. He said that sunday was the 1st day of the week but also they regarded it as the 8th day as in the eight day circumcision. (in his view circumcision on the eigth day was a precursor, or a for telling of Jesus rising from the grave on the 8th day (ie the day after the sabbath, sunday). Justin wrote this around 150 AD.. both men were within living memory of the apostles themselves, Ignatius was actually personaly instructed by the apostle John. Both men also died for their faith.

As for the divorcing of the church from its Jewish heretige. This largely occured after the destruction of the temple by the romans in 70 AD. After this the church in Jerusalem was dispersed across the empire. A major factor in the church moving away from its Jewish roots was the Jews themselves. Most christians now do not know it, but the early church suffered great persecution because of the Jews. In the early days of the church the Jews in the empire deliberately spread lies about christians and did everything in their power to turn the romans against them. They told the romans that the Christians were cannibals, that the christians practiced secret devient sexual rites and all sorts of things of this nature. In fact two of the remaining writings from Justin Martyr are letters to the emperor of Rome (marcus Aurelius of Gladiator fame) explaining the truth about christianity, trying to put an end to the rumors which the jews had spread abroad about them. As a result the christians distanced themselves from the jews, and from judaism which also at this time began to change some of its views in order to differentiate itself from christianity and to invalidate christianity.

I think that it is important to understand the jewish heretige of the faith. In particular I think the feasts of God are important propheticly. However, both the apostles and the next generation of the church after them are very clear that the church is something new. Its not just a sect of judaism. It does not continue the mosaic covenant or the mosaic law. This fact is also fortold in the prophets who repeatedly say that God was going to do someting new, something different than what had come before. He was going to make a new covenant.

As to the catholics praying to marry and saints. This is a doctrie and a practice I never understood till recently. First I will say that I think the catholic practice is off. They've gone too far, particularly with Mary.
The doctrine of the saints is as follows. There is one holy church and one body of christ of which all believers are a part. When a believer, or "saint", dies they are not seperated from the body of Christ, they are still part of the community of believers. The twelth chapter of Hebrews speaks about the great cloud of witnesses who surround us and also about the righteous men who have died before us. They are not seperated from the body of Christ by death, rather they are still waiting for us (as hebrews says (in chapter 11) that none of us will receive the fullness of our reward until all are gathered in, so they wait for us and cheer us on. So catholics and orthodox believers speak to those saints that have gone before as you would go to a brother in christ and speak to him, asking him to pray for you. The scriptures teach that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much and that when believers agree together in prayer it is powerful. So the prayers to the saints, in the eyes of catholic and orthodox doctrine is no different than you going to a brother in Christ that you respect and asking him to pray for you.
Like I said I think most catholics and orthodox take this practice too far and do go into worship with it.
I have to get going so i can't say much more, but I would like to say that Mary, according to scripture, should be honored. Again the catholics go to far, but we as protestants often have the reverse problem.

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Thank you for your welcome. I agree with most of what you have said, but to accomadate, accept, give in, or commend, etc. anything less then what the word of God says, makes you just as guilty according to Jesus, as the false witness that is spreading the false word. Both is a sin and abomination. To just say that they are going to far, but it is alright can still lead many astray and condone evil.

The Bible says to come out of such practices, Jesus is calling all true believers to come out of "Babylon" (false religions), those who will not compromise God's word, but Love Him, and keep His commandments, and do according to His will, with obedience. While you are very informative and have studied history, the men you speak of, that says that they practice Sunday worship because... They are not, are not authors of the Bible, nor what they are saying found in the Bible, nor is anyone else quoted in the Bible, as pertaining to say that God commanded us to do as such. While I see nothing wrong with celebrating or gathering to worship God on Sunday, or to celebrate on that day, because it is the day Jesus arose, and does signify a new beginning, an eighth day. As long as you do not forsake His Sabbath Day, as He commanded.

But,if you change His Sabbath or ignore it, or teach false doctorine and say it was done away with, then you are breaking God's commandment, and practicing and or teaching, a false doctrine. We should praise God and keep His commandments everyday, worship Him everyday, but He has still set aside His Sabbath Day for special honor and rememberance, and has never gave any commandment to change it or do away with it. Read as I said before, Hebrews Ch. 4. and Isaiah Ch. 56.

It will tell you of God's Rest, which is what His Sabbath day is, and signifies, which is embedded with deep spiritual meaning, and points to Jesus's return to gather his elect, and destroy the wicked, and then He will finally rest, and us who has kept God's commandments and was obedient, will have done the same. If you have a Greek concordance, or Bible translation of the original Greek translation, even better.

Hebrews 4 -Says- Let us therefore fear, while the promise of entering into His Rest remains, lest some amongst you find they are prevented from entering. 2. For the gospel was preached to us as it was to them also, but the Word they heard did not benefit them, because it was not mixed with Faith in those who heard it. 3. But we who have believed will enter into Rest, as He said, "AS I have sworn in my wrath, they shall not enter into My Rest"; for behold, THE WORKS OF GOD WERE FROM THE VERY FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. 5. And here again He said, They shall not enter into My Rest. 6. There was a chance for some to enter therein, but they to whom the Gospel was firts preached did not enter because they would NOT LISTEN;
7. And again, after a long time He appointed another day, as it is written above; for David said, Today if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.
8. For if Joshua the son of Nun had given them rest, he would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9. IT IS THEREFORE THE DUTY OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. 10. For he who has entered into His Rest, also has ceased from his own works, as God did from His. 11. Let us strive therefore to enter into that Rest, lest any man fall like those who were DISOBEDIENT.

The whole new testament was originally wrote in Greek. The new testament tells us that Jesus and His apostles, even after Jesus's death, kept the Sabbath, and all of the commandments. Jesus nailed the ordinances of the law to the cross, not the commandments. The law was put in affect, because His people would'nt keep the commandments, which was His first covenant. The new covenant is that by Jesus's blood he brings forgiveness and salvation and reconcilation to God, for all who will ask, repent, and keep His commandments. He says that he will write His commandments on our heart, and put them in our mind. He sends the Holy Spirit who show us the truth and light, and enables and helps us to keep God;s word.

Jesus over and over states, "If you Love me, You will keep My Commandments," "Those who say that they know God, but sin, is a liar, and the love of the truth is not in them." "those who do my Father's Will and keep His commandments, is the ones who will inherit the Kingdom of God. And there is so much more of this same warnings all throughout the scriptures that tells us this same thing- overcome sin, turn your back on sin, die to and deny your carnal mind and body, which is the sin nature of self, that we was born into, which is the lies of Satan, and put on the new man, new nature, spiritual man of God.

Keep the commandments, do God's will, be obediant, love one another, put God first, Love Him and serve Him with all of your heart, come to God with a broken and pure, clean, upright heart, Overcome and endure to the end, so you may be counted worthy and inherit the eternal life and the kingdom of God. Paul says, I have fought the good fight, and won the race. We all have to fight the good fight and run the race. We have to overcome sin, keep God's word, and commandments, do His will, surrendering our own, be obediant, stay in prayer, and the word of God, Loving and mediating on it, fasting, and praising and thanking God and our Lord, putting on the full armor of God, so we can overcome, and resist the whiles of the devil.

We can do all of this through Jesus, not of our own accord. He lives in us, he sends His promise of the Holy Spirit. He says he is able to keep us from falling, and guides us in the way that we should go. You can find most of these scriptures in the books of John, but it is all through the scriptures. The truth is there for anyone who wants to search His Word and know the truth for themselves. God is a Spirit and we must serve Him in truth and in Spirit. His Word is Spiritual and Living.

Hebrews 3:13-14 says- But search your hearts daily, until the day which is called "THE DAY" to the end, that no man among you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we are made partakers of Christ, if from the beginning to the very end, we hold steadfast to this true covenant.

Also you will find in the Bible, it tells us to prove ourselves worthy stewards. And that pure, undefiled religion is this- to feed the poor, cloth the naked, visti the widows and fatherless in their affliction, and those who are in prison. And it tells us we all our to spread the good news of the Gospel of salvation. The Bible warns us, that sin, rebellion and disobedience was the downfall of Satan, and man. And that from the beginning we were made in God's image, but sin, rebellion, and disobedience came in, and seperated us from Him. Had it not been for God's plan, (Mercy, Love, and Grace) to send His only begotten Son, and the Son's love for us and His Father, and perfect obedience, without sin, we all would be condemmed. Now if anyone refuses to take hold of this final Covenant, or breaks it, and does not repent, and remain faithful, they cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. God warns us that He can not allow anyone who remains rebellious, sinful in nature,(willful sin) or disobedient into His Kingdom. These things, if you continue in them, will most diffinetly keep you out of His Kingdom, excluded from His Covenant, His Grace, and out from the covering of Jesus's blood.

May Yahveh, our God, and Yahshua, our lord and Savior, Bless & touch all who read this with truth and light

[This message has been edited by stacysangeltouch (edited February 18, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by stacysangeltouch (edited February 18, 2005).]

But lets keep the sabbath God ways, in thanksgiving to God, resting and abiding in Christ, in liberty and freedom, not with manmade, legalistic rules, not in keeping to careful sundown calenders to the minute, not in getting so caught up in it, that one refuses to associate with non christians on the day nor serving God by actively loving and ministering to others in the community.

i'll end on here, Jesus dealing with the issue, notice that in these cases his disciplines (and the situations he quotes WERE actually breaking the law, in the laws sense, but they were still innocent)

quote:

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1At about that time Jesus was walking through some grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, so they began breaking off heads of wheat and eating the grain. 2Some Pharisees saw them do it and protested, "Your disciples shouldn't be doing that! It's against the law to work by harvesting grain on the Sabbath."
3But Jesus said to them, "Haven't you ever read in the Scriptures what King David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He went into the house of God, and they ate the special bread reserved for the priests alone. That was breaking the law, too. 5And haven't you ever read in the law of Moses that the priests on duty in the Temple may work on the Sabbath? 6I tell you, there is one here who is even greater than the Temple! 7But you would not have condemned those who aren't guilty if you knew the meaning of this Scripture: `I want you to be merciful; I don't want your sacrifices.'[a] 8For I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath."

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Jesus is my Sabbath, i will abide and rest in Him, Jesus is my Lord, i will seek, serve and obey Him, Jesus is also the Lord of my Sabbath.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 18, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 18, 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by stacysangeltouch:

the men you speak of, that says that they practice Sunday worship because... They are not, are not authors of the Bible, nor what they are saying found in the Bible, nor is anyone else quoted in the Bible, as pertaining to say that God commanded us to do as such.

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No indeed, the early church fathers, such as Ignatius, were not the authors of the bible and they are not infallible or perfect in my opinion. However, they were taught directly by the men who did write the bible. Thus I think it is something worthy of consideration that they might have understood the bible better than we, who are 2000 years removed and live in a culture vastly different than what the bible was written in. Thus when a doctrine arises today which calls the earliest christians decievers and false teachers, I'm skeptical of it, and I'm inclined to believe that the early church probably understood the bible better than we do.

quote:

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Originally posted by stacysangeltouch:

While I see nothing wrong with celebrating or gathering to worship God on Sunday, or to celebrate on that day, because it is the day Jesus arose, and does signify a new beginning, an eighth day. As long as you do not forsake His Sabbath Day, as He commanded.
But,if you change His Sabbath or ignore it, or teach false doctorine and say it was done away with, then you are breaking God's commandment, and practicing and or teaching, a false doctrine. We should praise God and keep His commandments everyday, worship Him everyday, but He has still set aside His Sabbath Day for special honor and rememberance, and has never gave any commandment to change it or do away with it.

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God has actually done away with the entire structure of worship established under mosaic law. He has done away with the centrality of the ark of the covenant, with the blood sacrifice, with the ritual bathings, and so on. This is undeniable, particularly from a christian perspective. Yet not once in all of scripture is there actually an explicit command of God saying that these practices should be dispensed with. It is simply the fact that they have been fulfilled and thus their observance has passed away. Jesus said that he came not to abolish the law but but to fulfill it and that is what he has done. The reason there is no more blood sacrifice is because Jesus fulfilled that, thus it is no longer necessary.. the reason the ark is no longer a necessary part of the worship is because Jesus has fulfilled its purpose. It contained the law and the presence of God. Jesus' blood forever covered the law in grace and as a result God no longer dwells on the ark but within us. The reason we no longer have to partake of ritual bathing is that Jesus Christ washed us clean, once and for all in baptism, himself thus we have no more need of repeated ritual baths. Likewise Jesus also fulfilled the sabbath, but I'll explain that further from the scriptures you quote next.

quote:

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Originally posted by stacysangeltouch:

Read as I said before, Hebrews Ch. 4. and Isaiah Ch. 56.
It will tell you of God's Rest, which is what His Sabbath day is, and signifies, which is embedded with deep spiritual meaning, and points to Jesus's return to gather his elect, and destroy the wicked, and then He will finally rest, and us who has kept God's commandments and was obedient, will have done the same. If you have a Greek concordance, or Bible translation of the original Greek translation, even better.

Hebrews 4 -Says- Let us therefore fear, while the promise of entering into His Rest remains, lest some amongst you find they are prevented from entering. 2. For the gospel was preached to us as it was to them also, but the Word they heard did not benefit them, because it was not mixed with Faith in those who heard it. 3. But we who have believed will enter into Rest, as He said, "AS I have sworn in my wrath, they shall not enter into My Rest"; for behold, THE WORKS OF GOD WERE FROM THE VERY FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. 5. And here again He said, They shall not enter into My Rest. 6. There was a chance for some to enter therein, but they to whom the Gospel was firts preached did not enter because they would NOT LISTEN;
7. And again, after a long time He appointed another day, as it is written above; for David said, Today if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts.
8. For if Joshua the son of Nun had given them rest, he would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9. IT IS THEREFORE THE DUTY OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. 10. For he who has entered into His Rest, also has ceased from his own works, as God did from His. 11. Let us strive therefore to enter into that Rest, lest any man fall like those who were DISOBEDIENT.

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Now, in this section you present the idea that the fulfillment of the sabbath is yet future. You suggest that it will only be fulfilled and we will only enter the rest of God's sabbath at the end when Jesus returns. I disagree. Jesus has already fulfilled the sabbath and we, as christians, fulfill it right now through subjecting our lives to Jesus Christ. This is what is meant by the statement that "he who has entered into God's rest has ceased from his own labors." The entire christian life is meant to be a fulfillment of the sabbath. Paul said that he lived no longer but rather Christ lived through him. That is what we are called to. You must not only cease for YOUR labors on saturday, you must cease from them every day. That is why the New Testament writers taught that even in your job, even as a slave you should do everything as though you were doing it for God, because really, you are. As a christian your life is God's work, not yours.

Also it should be pointed out that the Jews strictly observed the sabbath according to mosaic law. Yet these passages say that they never entered God's rest. This clearly says that the laws regarding not working on saturday, are not God's rest.

you've said this fulfillment of the sabbath is future at the return of christ, I say it is already accomplished in Jesus Christ who is the Lord of the sabbath. I have to point out that a couple of things in the scriptures you quoted are misquoted. First in verse 3 you have the following quote "But we who have believed will enter into Rest" There is one word in this sentence that is misquoted. The verb of the sentence (in english its two words) "will enter". The original greek word here is "eiserchomai" and it is present tense, not future tense. It actually means "do enter" or simply "enter". This verse states that those who believe in Christ enter into the Rest of God right now.
The second misquote is verse 9. You have it rendered "IT IS THEREFORE THE DUTY OF THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH." What it actually says is "there remains, therefore, a sabbath (or a rest) for the people of God." This verse goes together with the refrence to joshua which says "If Joshua had given them rest then he would not afterward have spoken of another day."
What both of these verses teach is that the Old Testament sabbath observance was not the ultimate rest of God. That there was a rest of God which was fortold in the sabbath which remains for the people of God who, by faith, die to themselves and live for Jesus Christ.

quote:

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Originally posted by stacysangeltouch:

Jesus nailed the ordinances of the law to the cross, not the commandments. The law was put in affect, because His people would'nt keep the commandments, which was His first covenant.

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It is often assumed by many people that the ten commandments are somehow not part of the rest of the mosaic covenant. This is primarily because they seemt to be more universal in nature. However, this view isn't presented in scripture. The ten commandments are part of the mosaic covenant. The immediate question people will ask is "do you think its ok to murder and steal then?" and so on. The answer is no, but this is not simply because of the ten commandments. First the bible makes it clear that God gave a law to the gentiles as well which covered a number of the same topics. On that line the statement isn't true that the ten commandments were God's first covenant. God made a covenant with Noah long before in which he established moral laws for all people. It is significant that those things repeated in the New Testament by the apostles as the necessary observances for all christians mirror the covenant of Noah, not that of moses.

quote:

---

Originally posted by stacysangeltouch:

Jesus over and over states, "If you Love me, You will keep My Commandments," "Those who say that they know God, but sin, is a liar, and the love of the truth is not in them." "those who do my Father's Will and keep His commandments, is the ones who will inherit the Kingdom of God. And there is so much more of this same warnings all throughout the scriptures that tells us this same thing- overcome sin, turn your back on sin, die to and deny your carnal mind and body, which is the sin nature of self, that we was born into, which is the lies of Satan, and put on the new man, new nature, spiritual man of God.

---

I agree completely that we must obey. There is a movement in christianity that teaches that obedience is not important because we are saved by Grace and it relegates obedience to "dead works". This simply isn't true. However, we are not called to obey the mosaic covenant. The apostles clearly lay out what christians must obey in the New testament and the sabbath is noticably absent. It is never mentioned in any of the lists where the apostles tell christians what they must obey. In fact Paul actually states that it is not necessary to obey it. He, in that instance says "sabbaths". Many pro sabbath people argue that he didn't mean THE sabbath but only the lesser holy days. However, that is not consistent with the text or the context in which paul is speaking.

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

anyhow i agree with your post and very important points abotu Christ fufilling the law, and the exclusiveness of the mosaic covenant with the israelites etc, and i do agree with the points about things that are no longer observed because they have been fufilled, and in fact it can be idolotorous to hold on to the shadows of the things to come (which came and is Jesus) rather than to cling to Jesus himself, However its in the manner of how you hold onto them, for example i don't observe the feasts in such a lawful way, but do like to on occassion because of my Jesus, because in observing that feast, i am studying the shadow, learning about depths of its meanings, and more importantly how they reflect Christ, his essence, what He did etc, so i am celebrating Christ, and gaining a richer understanding of my faith because of the shadows (rather than just a sugar coated box presented by this denomination or another)..

and as i mentioned in my post, Christ is the fufillment of our Sabbath, and we enter rest in Him (though i do agree that on his coming back, there is a greater fufilment of this, but on the christ, everything was accomplished, finished, even if not worked out. For example take our righteousness, we are righteous now through Christs righteousness, however day to day we are still sinners, and are being purified , and made holy, but on that Day, we will no longer have the fight against flesh and spirit , that is common to all believers, but be rid of the sinful flesh, having a resurrection Body, and thus i think enter into God's rest with greater 'completeness', however by God's grace , through Jesus we can still enter into his rest, right now, abiding in Him moment by moment, its very similar to a Jewish wedding, how now we are engaged / betrowthed to God, and on that day, we will be wed in the great wedding feast.

But though I believe that Jesus fufills the sabbath and there is no longer any legal obligation to keep it as such. I do believe there is blessing in it, both in the spiritual and physical, for obviously it gives us an oppurtunity to not be totally caught up in everyday life, but to set aside time as important soley for God. And God in his wisdom made it for us, for he knows our need for rest, He said that man wasn't made for the sabbath but sabbath for man. Beyond that there is prophetic elements that are seperate from other things in the mosaic law, it has not only affected society throughout the world in amazing way that people wouldn't even realise (that all cultures have a 7 day week - that alone is a testimony to God), but there are many hints to its future observance, for example when Jesus talks about the end times in mat 24, to pray that it wouldn't be on the sabbath (ok maybe that is just for the jewish audience, but maybe not).

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. - Isaiah 66:22, 23

Karl

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Now, the Bible says that Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not to abolish it. Now what do you think that means? As I said before, the ordinaces of the law, such as the blood sacrifice, and the washing, just as you said, are such ordinances. Yes, we no longer have to do those, because He was the ultimate sacrifice, and the rituals was just a shadow of things to come, meaning "Jesus" was to come. Those ordinances is what He fulfilled. NOt God's commandments. Do you think we now have a lisence to sin? To say that we don't have to keep His commandments, or we can live and wallow in our own sin, is in direct conflict with the word of God, and the whole new testament.

Now to say that these commandments are Mosiac, or to imply that the apostles, said that they didn't have to is simply not true. It is mis-interpreted by many. If we were to believe this, than it would make the Bible contradictory, and the Bible does not lie. It does not contradict itself. Man is the one who flaws. They were refering to new converts, who did not understand, and said to not burden them with too much right now, least they overwhelm them all at once. You have to start off with the milk and get into the meat as you mature.

And it is also often mis-interpreted about the verse where it says not to let any man judge you considering a Sabbath day or feast day. This is saying not let anyone discourage or prevent you from observing them. Many tried to say back then, just as they are saying now, that it was abolished. And was mocking them for observing God's Holy Days.

And you keep referring to the "Jew and Gentiles" as being seperate in what they are to observe, concerning God's commandments. The mystery of God that Paul preached, is that we are considered to Him as the same and one, no different, but one in Christ. We who are the Gentiles who have taken a hold of God's covenant, and accept Jesus as our Savior, have become His Chosen and Elect, and are an adopted Israelite. We have become a fellow heir and adopted and grafted into the election, the olive tree. The Bible says that there is one law for them and for us. We are to observe the same perpetual covenants as He told them to. And I am not talking about fulfilled ordinances, but perpetual commandments. Read about them in the old teastamnent. It says that we will also be still doing them, just like the Sabbath, in the new earthly kingdom.

Now, the ordinances has nothing to do with the ten commandments, which is God's royal law, which was in effect, even before the ordinances of the law, and those ordinances came, because the people did not keep the commandments. And the commandments, as you can see, as it says over and over again, all through the new testament, says we are to keep them. You can not pick and chose what commandments you want to keep. Should we say it is alright to murder? Steal? It is God's Sabbath Day, not ours, or ours to change. He blessed it, sanctified it, and called it "MY SABBATH DAY OF REST".

Who gave us authority to take, change, or do away with something that is not ours to touch? Do we now covet what belongs to God? Now, if we want to change it, abolish it, etc. what have we done? We put ourselves in the place of God, making ourselves above God, and saying we are a God, to have such authority over God. Just like Satan did. And just like Satan told Eve, "Ye shall surely not die, but God knows in the day ye eat thereof, your eyes will be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." And quess what? Satan got kicked out of Heaven, and Adam and Eve got kicked out of Eden, and they lost their mortality.

I am sorry, put you can twist and reason with one's own carnal understanding of God's word all you like, but anyone who truly wants to know the truth, should read and beleive His word for what it says, for themselves, and not what man says it says. Anyone should know that His word says numerous times that if we want to inherit the Kingdom of God, to keep His commandments. To do the Father's will, and what did He say that His Father's will is? To keep His commandments. What is His commandments? Jesus said, those that we had from the beginning. When was the beginning? Need I say more?

And Jesus and the apostles, even after Jesus's death, kept the Sabbath. And the New testament was wrote years after Jesus's death. And the scriptures still referred to the Sabbath in quotes like saying, "a Sabbaths' day journey. You can not say that these men you keep talking about, who wrote these other writings, that are not in the Bible, has any validation, or should be considered true. We can not rule out that these writings are probably Satan's handiwork. Just because they claim to be students of an apostle, and with the early church, does not make it true, if it does not line up with the Bible.

If you remember, Paul, Peter, and some of the others, and even Jesus kept warning the people that there was renouned men of old crept in, that wished to destroy the church and the Word of God. And would bring in false doctrine, and man made commandments. Or twist the word of God, to suit themselves, and lead the people astray. The Scribes and Pharisees already had, and Jesus said that there was already anti-christ there. How much more so, do you think that there has been every since then? And even more now, here in the end days?

But, don't take my word for it, I would urge you to get in your Bible, and stay in it, with much prayer and fasting, and asking for His spiritual eyes, ears, heart, mind, wisdom, and understanding, so that you would know the truth.

And I do believe that God is powerful enough, to have in His Living Word, all that He intends to have in it, and at least translated in other languages, even if Satan tried to tamper with a few words of translation, here in there, to more than enough get His word through to His people, to allow them to know Him, and obtain salvation. And live a life, according to His will, pleasing to Him, in obedeince, in truth and spirit.

You miss the whole big picture, of His plan, right from the start. And the Sabbath Day is His mark, His signiture, His completion, Rest. He tells His people this day is a sign, between Him and them. This is a perpetual commandment. It is not a Mosiac Law. I would urge you and anyone else, to ask God for His spiritual wisdom and understanding, and go back and read everything you can, concerning this. And like I said, you should read the prophecy chapters of the old testament, read Isaih Ch. 56. Read the whole book, and Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. These books tell us what is going to happen during the tribulation, and even after He sets up a earthly kingdom. He says that the people will even be keeping His Sabbath then! Might want to read about this, and chew on it for a little while.

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To my understanding Jesus nailed all 10 of the Commandments to the cross, we deserve hell for our sins, but Jesus died for us all. From my reading of Scripture, Jesus did teach all of the Commandments in the New Testament except for keeping the Sabbath.

I wouldn't go as far to say that if we don't observe the Sabbath that we lose Salvation. If it were that important as for maintaining Salvation, then wouldn't Jesus have stressed more on the topic? He said that He came to seek and to save. His mission was to save mankind from hell... He lived a sinless life and died for us to do so. I don't think the Sabbath has anything to do with Salvation.

I'm not debating in anyway here, just expressing that we mustn't get caught up in the letter of the law, but instead we must live by the spirit of it. Which is not foreign to us cause it's written upon our hearts. We simply can't afford to lose focus on "Him". Once that happens it's possible to lose everything. Even our very souls.

K, guess that was more like 3 cents.

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I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

I have never said that one would lose their salvation, by not keeping the Sabbath, I can not judge. God knows the heart. I also used to believe otherwise. I didn't even use to know what the Sabbath was, much less keep it.
My point is, that it is His commandment, and is still in effect. Now, God did in no wise, abolish His commandments. All of them are there for our guidance, and He was the example for us to live by. He can not look upon sin, and He will not have rebellion, sin, or disobedeince in Heaven. We are simply just traveling through this world, as a test. God is, and has been, weeding out the tares from the wheat, and has been since the beginning.

Jesus came to make a reconcilation for us back to God. He took our place, and took upon himself our sins and death, which we deserved. Does that mean we should continue in sin? John and Hebrews says for those who contiinue on in willful sin, trample under foot, Jesus's blood, and that there is no more sacrifice for sin, for those who do.

Hebrews does indeed tell us that we are to observe the Sabbath, which is in the new testament, and what is more inportant, is it never tells us not to. But the fact is, there was no need for them to state the obvious.

JESUS AND THE APOSTLES WAS IN THE SYNOGOGUES EVERY SABBATH TEACHING THE PEOPLE, AND THE PEOPLE WAS ASKING THEM TO COME BACK THE NEXT SABBATH AND TEACH THEM SOME MORE. THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES WAS HYPOCRITES, BUT EVEN THEY WAS MAKING A PRETENSE OF BEING HOLY AS THEY WERE SUPPOSE TO BE GODS PRIEST. AND EVERYONE KNEW THAT THE SABBATH WAS A PERPETUAL COMMANDMENT OF GOD. AND WHAT WAS BEING OBSERVED BY THE PEOPLE. BUT THE PRIEST MADE A BLASPHEMY OUT OF IT, AND WAS LEADING THE PEOPLE ASTRAY, BY ALL OF THEIR ADDED MAN-MADE DOCTORINES.

SO, WHY WOULD JESUS OR THE APOSTLES HAVE A NEED TO TEACH OR TELL THE PEOPLE, EVEN THE NON-JEWS, WHO HAD ALREADY STARTED COMING TO THE PREACHINGS OF JESUS AND THE APOSTLES INTO THE SYNOGOGUES EVERY SABBATH, AND BECAME CONVERTED, AND KNEW THAT THE ISRAELITES KEPT THE SABBATH, EVEN BEFORE THEY BECAME CONVERTED.

So what need was there to tell them of this commandment, that they already new about? THIS IS SADLY, ONE OF THE MANY THINGS SATAN HAS BEEN ABLE TO TAKE AND TWIST TO HIS ADVANTAGE. BECAUSE THIS WAS ALREADY KNEW AND UNDERSTOOD BY EVERYONE, IN THAT TIME, AND NO NEED TO BE TAUGHT, SATAN THOUGHT TO CHANGE THE TIMES AND THE LAW, JUST AS THE BOOK OF DANIEL SAYS HE WOULD, AND THEREBY, HAS BEEN ABLE TO DECEIVE MANY.

But it is still there in the word, for anyone who wants to seek it and find it. I did. There is so many things to learn, that our preachers never teach, preach, or mention. Preach all around it and leave it out. Most will not even speak about the old testament, says it is not for us, but 1/3 of it is prophecy for the end days, tribulation, armageddan, and the new earthly kingdom. I gave scripture to read, for anyone who wants to. God says my people suffer all day long for lack of wisdom and knowledge.

It is my point exactly, and is what His Sabbath is about, to focus on God, our Creator, to acknowledge Him as the Creator, and what He did for us, from the beginning, in His perfectly laid out plan. We are showing obedience everytime, we do this, and acknowledgement of His Creation, and Him, the Creator, the first and the last.

One of the main sins, and of which that there is the first commandment against, is, Thy shalt have no other Gods before me. People is continueously putting either a pagan God, (which the fallen angels taught men to do), or materialism, or self, and making oneself, his own god. And worshipping the creation, instead of God.
This is one of the main reasons and messages hidden in God's Sabbath Day Rest, he gave to us as a sign, memorial, and perpetual commandment. There is so much spiritual reasoning hid, that one needs to seek out.

We are submitting to His will and authority. We have to die to the carnal man and body, the sin nature we are born into, which is the lie of Satan. He holds us in captivity, blindness, and in bondage of sin, until we reach out to Jesus, and take hold of God's covenant, are washed by His blood, and truly die to the carnal mind, overcoming sin, through Jesus, and are reborn by the spirit, and become the new spiritual man, and live to God.

So, thus, we put off the old man, and deny ourselves, our own will, and give our will to God, and seek only His will and what pleases Him. And begin a life in the new man, spiritual man, that has fellowship with God, through Jesus Christ.

Let me give a strong bit of advice. The scribes and Pharisees were very knowledgeable of the word of God. They were Hebrew Priest, who were suppose to teach the Israelites God's Word. They knew the law and commandments inside and out. But they added to the law so many ordinances of their own, that it became a buden to men. These men had become high minded, proud, arrogant, selfish, vain, and greedy. Jesus called them the seed of Satan, because they led the people astray with false doctorine and man-made commandments, and they taught about outer appearances, but not the inner man, spiritual man, cleansing of sins, etc.

Anyone can quote scripture, and think they know it, but if they do not have spiritual knowledge of what it is actually saying amd means, they are dealing with fire, and will be held accountable for teaching anyone any less then the truth. So, be careful of telling people, that they do not have to keep God's commandments, or that they are done away with, that it is not for us, etc. I would be extremely careful of this. Please study the word, the whole word, not just part of it, with the help of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

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quote:

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It is my point exactly, and is what His Sabbath is about, to focus on God, our Creator, to acknowledge Him as the Creator, and what He did for us, from the beginning, in His perfectly laid out plan. We are showing obedience everytime, we do this, and acknowledgement of His Creation, and Him, the Creator, the first and the last.

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No sir, I did not mis-quote, I quoted that directly from a Greek Bible.

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He says we also are to enter His rest, and rest with Him on this day. To do this as a memorial to Honor Him for what He has done for us, and to remember that He is the creator, and not to worship the creation, instead of the Creator.

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Do you think we now have a lisence to sin? To say that we don't have to keep His commandments, or we can live and wallow in our own sin, is in direct conflict with the word of God, and the whole new testament.

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And it is also often mis-interpreted about the verse where it says not to let any man judge you considering a Sabbath day or feast day. This is saying not let anyone discourage or prevent you from observing them. Many tried to say back then, just as they are saying now, that it was abolished. And was mocking them for observing God's Holy Days.

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collosians
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

and also the context before this shows the OPPOSITE is true, it says here that the sabbath is a SHADOW of the things that were to come, and that it is fufilled in CHrist, thus we should rest in Christ. However of course the sabbath is not a bad thing, and not wrong to worship God then, for we should worship him always. and yes the early disciples preached in the synagogues - definately as they firstly preached to the jews, i'm sure if they went to the muslims (if they'd been around then) they'd have been going to the mosques on friday, such stuff is circumstantial evidence. it does prove that worshiping God on the sabbath isn't wrong (which is obvious) but it can never prove that one must keep the sabbath in the way the law requires.
I recommend reading the whole of colosians

quote:

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One of the main sins, and of which that there is the first commandment against, is, Thy shalt have no other Gods before me. People is continueously putting either a pagan God, (which the fallen angels taught men to do), or materialism, or self, and making oneself, his own god. And worshipping the creation, instead of God.
This is one of the main reasons and messages hidden in God's Sabbath Day Rest, he gave to us as a sign, memorial, and perpetual commandment. There is so much spiritual reasoning hid, that one needs to seek out.

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Karl

also the commands of God, what are they? i mean everything God ever told anybody is a command of God, but though he might have told the israelites to attack a certian race, should i also go and attack that race and try to wipe them out? or should i find a levite to offer animal sacrifices, (if fact such a thing would be denying Christ and his atonement), should i refrain from eating unclean meat etc etc,should i be circumcised? Though of course i agree that the ten commands are good things, and as laws are based on the character and moral of God, living a law based, or grace/faith based life comes from 2 different angles. BUt one thing i recommend is doing a study of what Jesus himself actually commanded

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

romans 10
1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

i pray you haven't fallen into the same trap as the Israelites did as recorded in the scriptures here

and in the light of how paul tied the issues of eating meat, and observing sabbaths etc in colosians 2 lets end with romans 14

Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ ”[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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As, I have said before, most of what you have said, I agree with whole heartedly. And I am not saying that the Sabbath Day keeping alone can save you, nor am I juding anyone. But, if you are to be honest with the word of God, and keep all of His commandments, you can not pick and choose which ones is okay to keep and which are not. The Bible says that he who breaks the least of the commandments has broken them all. And it also says "what is sin? It is the transgression of the law". And he who willfully sins, is not of God.

I would have to say that if anyone could make keeping God's Sabbath Day an idol, (which would be hard to do, because it is about giving that day to God, and recognising Him as "GOD alone" the only God and Creator, and that He alone Created and Saves, and what He has done for us, from the beginning to the end). Then how much more so, would it be for someone to make themselves a god, putting themselves above God, by trying to abolish, take away, do away with, or pick and choose which ones we want to keep, of His commandments, which He gave no authority to do so? That is what Satan did, coveted what God had, His position, and then deceived men, and told them that they could be a god too, and tempted them "BY SAYING YOU CAN BE A GOD ALSO, AND know good from evil"

And you have a very dry since of humor, lol, but for your information the English translation of the original Greek writings of the New Testament, (I am afraid that you or no one else would be able to understand Greek writing) is the Greek translated Bible by George M. Lamsa, from the original Greek scrolls.

The Bible tells us that the law came to the Israelites because they would not keep the commandments. Jesus came to free us from the law, yes. Do you see here, where there was made a difference inbetween the law His ten commandments? You keep saying it was part of the law that Jesus came to fullfill, and not to abolish it. Why do you not understand then, what was fullfilled, and not make the distinct seperation of what was the ordinances and what was not?

To say that we no longer are to keep the commandments, or choose which ones we can keep, is simply not scriptual. Jesus came to nail the ordinances of the Law to the cross, and fullfill them. Such as the blood sacrifices etc. Even you mentioned that. What is meant by we are no longer under the law, but under Grace, is that we are no longer, judged by men or put to death under their laws.

If we believe and take hold of His covenant, we come under God's grace, and are cleansed by the blood, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables us to keep the commandments, and Jesus makes a way of escape from temptation and sin. The Lord says that He writes His commandments on our heart and in our minds, and enables US TO KEEP HIS LAW!

We are SAVED BY GRACE,IN HIS NEW COVENANT. HE ENABLES US TO KEEEP HIS LAW BY HIS FREE GIFT, NOT OF OURSELVES, BUT BY HIS SON. THE OLD COVENANT WAS BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE, AND THE LAW WAS GIVEN TO THEM WITH THE ORDINANCES, WHICH REQUIRED THEM TO OFFER UP SACRIFICES FOR REMISSION OF SINS, WHICH WAS TEMPORARY, AND AN IMPERFECT SACRIFICE THAT THEY HAD TO DO, OVER AND OVER AGAIN,(A SHADOW OF THE ONE WHO WAS TO COME, THAT WOULD OFFER UP REMISSION OF SINS, ONCE AND FOR ALL) AND THE PEOPLE WAS JUDGED BY AND ACCORDING TO THE LAW.

Now, do you see what they were under, that they are no longer under? And Jesus says not one jot or tittle of God's Word will pass away, until He comes back. And He says that He is the same today, yesterday, and tommorrow.

And you are still walking all around the verses that tells us, if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. The Bible says, "those who will inherit the kingdom of God is the ones who love me and keep my commandments, that this is the patience of the Saints."

I will leave you WITH THIS VERSE, EXODUS 31:12-18 AND THE LORD SPOKE TO MOSES, SAYING, SPEAK TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, SAYING, MY SABBATHS YOU MUST KEEP; FOR IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN YOU AND ME THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS;

THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT I AM YOUR LORD YOUR GOD WHO SANCTIFIES YOU.

YOU SHALL KEEP THE SABBATH; FOR IT IS HOLY TO YOU; EVERYONE WHO DEFILES IT SHALL SURELY BE CUT OFF FROM AMONG HIS PEOPLE.

SIX DAYS YOU SHALL DO WORK; BUT THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF REST, HOLY TO THE LORD; WHOSOEVER DOES ANY WORK ON THE SABBATH DAY SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.

WHERFORE THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL SHALL KEEP THE SABBATH OF THE LORD TO OBSERVE THE SABBATH THROUGHOUT ALL THEIR GENERATIONS FOR A PERPETUAL COVENANT.

IT IS A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FOR EVER.

FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH AND THE SEAS AND ALL THAT ARE THERIN, AND ON THE SEVENTH DAY HE CEASED FROM WORK AND RESTED.

AND HE GAVE MOSES, WHEN HE HAD MADE AN END OF TALKING WITH HIM ON THE MOUNT SINAI, TWO TABLETS OF TESTIMONY, THE STONE TABLETS WRITTEN BY THE FINGER OF GOD.

Do you recognise the fact on how lengthy God spoke individually about His Sabbath Day to Moses, and it is the only commandment that was written in this chapter of the scripture that He gave special instructions on or made mention of? Did you notice that he said a perpetual covenant, for ever, and throughout all of your generations?

I will remind you of Hebrews CH. 4, ISAIH,CH. 56, ETC.

I will also remind you of the fact, that God says He is the God of Israel, all through the new testament as well. And that He tells us that we who chose to follow Him, who accept His covenant, and salvation through His Son, are "INDEED AN ISRAELITE". WE BECOME AN FELLOW HEIR, ADOPTED, GRAFTED IN TWO THE OLIVE TREE! HE SAYS WE WILL HAVE ONE LAW, FOR THE BOTH OF US, AND WE WILL BECOME ONE PEOPLE! THAT WE ARE HIS "ELECT AND CHOSEN PEOPLE", THAT COMES TO THE FATHER THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, HIS SON. HE SAYS THAT NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER , THROUGH THE SON, EXCEPT THAT THE FATHER CALLS THEM. AND THAT WE HAVE BEEN CHOSEN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.

Do you understand what that is saying? It is saying that,
HE KNEW US, AND KNEW IF WE WOULD FOLLOW HIM IN OBEDIENCE, SPIRIT AND TRUTH, BEFORE WE WERE EVER BORN, BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!

Again, I will ask you to read the word, in spirit and truth. Ask God for His spiritual widsdom, understanding, eyes, ears, and mind.

The time is so short, and we do not have alot of time left, to come to the knowledge of truth. He is coming back very soon, and we are not promised tomorrow, even if He was not.

You quote scripture of Jesus's commandments to love one another, which is true, but you leave the other out. Darkness has no place with light, and works without faith is dead, and faith without works is dead. You have to take God's word as a whole, and you can not just take a verse hee and there, and say, "Ah, it means this."

We are to keep God's commandments, and the Bible makes it perfectly clear of this, all throughout. And you think I am being legalistic? I have not put one commandment above the other, or made any of them more important then a personal relationship with God and His Son. And what is so sad, is
for anyone to think that they can have a true relationship with God,
if they do not keep His commandments, but instead teach or believe false doctorines and man-made commandmnets.

I have not said anything about keeping the ordinances of the law, that Jesus fullfilled, or said that I was judging anyone. I do not deem myself better then anyone, or say that I know everything, because we will never know all there is to know, surrounding the depth, wisdom, and mysteries hidden in God's Word, no matter if we live three life-times

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I would have to say that if anyone could make keeping God's Sabbath Day an idol, (which would be hard to do, because it is about giving that day to God, and recognising Him as "GOD alone" the only God and Creator, and that He alone Created and Saves, and what He has done for us, from the beginning to the end). Then how much more so, would it be for someone to make themselves a god, putting themselves above God, by trying to abolish, take away, do away with, or pick and choose which ones we want to keep, of His commandments, which He gave no authority to do so? That is what Satan did, coveted what God had, His position, and then deceived men, and told them that they could be a god too, and tempted them "BY SAYING YOU CAN BE A GOD ALSO, AND know good from evil"

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The main emphasis of my point being on the bold text. Shouldn't this be the daily life of a Christian, and not just an appointment set aside for 1 day per week? (This is the difference between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law.) I love God, I want to do this everyday. I want to give Him everyday of my life, and recognize Him as God alone. I want to praise and worship Him for who He is everyday. I don't want to do this one day per week, but on every day of every week!!!

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To say that we no longer are to keep the commandments, or choose which ones we can keep, is simply not scriptual. Jesus came to nail the ordinances of the Law to the cross, and fullfill them. Such as the blood sacrifices etc. Even you mentioned that. What is meant by we are no longer under the law, but under Grace, is that we are no longer, judged by men or put to death under their laws.

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I agree that is not scriptual, but what I am saying is that we are not under the Old Testament Law, period. The Law shows us that we have sinned and are guilty of sinning, and are under God's judgement. Not of man's judgement. The Law was to show us that we have sinned, it points the finger at us. GUILTY! It can't save us, but it can show us how dirty and sinful we are, and how in need of a Saviour we are. But it can by no means "give us" Salvation. That comes through Jesus Christ alone. I think Galatians addresses this fairly well.

Ok, and finally don't get me wrong, I am in no way saying that we have an excuse to sin. Those who would think so would only be deceiving themselves, for God knows the true motives of our hearts.

God Bless,

------------------
I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

quote:

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Originally posted by stacysangeltouch:
But, if you are to be honest with the word of God, and keep all of His commandments, you can not pick and choose which ones is okay to keep and which are not. The Bible says that he who breaks the least of the commandments has broken them all.

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For example in collosians 2: in regardings to not regarding the keeping or not of eating meat new moons, sabbaths, the context explains it very clearly (in contrast to the folklore, that they were defending people who hung onto the traditions, the context shows clearly that they are defending those who had done away with it.)

imediately before this scripture in question is this scripture

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b] God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]

which shows clearly that the written code - the law is CANCELED, so in one sense, that would seem to contract Jesus about the 'dot and the tiddle', not coming to abolish the law, which would either infer that paul is going agaisnt Jesus and thus the bible is errant - which of course is not the case, or that their is a synergy of truth weaved throughout the bible, that in the context of the scriptures is clear, which is the case, and that synergy is clearly explained in romans, and easily understood when you understand the purpose of the law.

actually i'd never ever heard that defense of this scripture before (that it was defending those who were keeping the sabbath rather than those who were living in the freedom and liberty of Christ, as clearly shown by the context, the usual arguement i hear is that Sabbath is this case doesn't mean the sabbath but other the sabbaths , festivals etc.

and this part of scripture in collsians ends in , which definately shows the context even more clearly.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their selfimposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

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I would have to say that if anyone could make keeping God's Sabbath Day an idol, (which would be hard to do, because it is about giving that day to God, and recognising Him as "GOD alone" the only God and Creator, and that He alone Created and Saves, and what He has done for us, from the beginning to the end). Then how much more so, would it be for someone to make themselves a god, putting themselves above God, by trying to abolish, take away, do away with, or pick and choose which ones we want to keep, of His commandments, which He gave no authority to do so?

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also you say that animal sacrifice etc is one of the shadows and thus not applicible but this scripture itself says that the eating of meat, new moon festivals and the sabbath is one such Shadow.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

therefore there is NO doubt of the meaning of this scripture

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You keep saying it was part of the law that Jesus came to fullfill, and not to abolish it. Why do you not understand then, what was fullfilled, and not make the distinct seperation of what was the ordinances and what was not?

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And you have a very dry since of humor, lol, but for your information the English translation of the original Greek writings of the New Testament, (I am afraid that you or no one else would be able to understand Greek writing) is the Greek translated Bible by George M. Lamsa, from the original Greek scrolls.

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If we believe and take hold of His covenant, we come under God's grace, and are cleansed by the blood, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables us to keep the commandments, and Jesus makes a way of escape from temptation and sin. The Lord says that He writes His commandments on our heart and in our minds, and enables US TO KEEP HIS LAW!

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We are SAVED BY GRACE,IN HIS NEW COVENANT. HE ENABLES US TO KEEEP HIS LAW BY HIS FREE GIFT, NOT OF OURSELVES, BUT BY HIS SON. THE OLD COVENANT WAS BROKEN BY THE PEOPLE, AND THE LAW WAS GIVEN TO THEM WITH THE ORDINANCES, WHICH REQUIRED THEM TO OFFER UP SACRIFICES FOR REMISSION OF SINS, WHICH WAS TEMPORARY, AND AN IMPERFECT SACRIFICE THAT THEY HAD TO DO, OVER AND OVER AGAIN,(A SHADOW OF THE ONE WHO WAS TO COME, THAT WOULD OFFER UP REMISSION OF SINS, ONCE AND FOR ALL) AND THE PEOPLE WAS JUDGED BY AND ACCORDING TO THE LAW.
[QUOTE]
amen brother, and again scripture shows sabbath keeping as one of those ordinances and shadows.

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You have to take God's word as a whole, and you can not just take a verse hee and there, and say, "Ah, it means this."

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I have not said anything about keeping the ordinances of the law, that Jesus fullfilled,

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or said that I was judging anyone. I do not deem myself better then anyone, or say that I know everything, because we will never know all there is to know, surrounding the depth, wisdom, and mysteries hidden in God's Word, no matter if we live three life-times

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i wanted to converse with you over this, but didn't want to get into geting into arguments over these things that aren't important

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5ONE MAN CONSIDERS ONE DAY MORE SACRED THAN ANOTHER; ANOTHER MAN CONSIDERS EVERY DAY ALIKE. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

and as according to the scripture above, you DO consider one day more sacred than another, if would be a SIN to you, if you went against your conscious and did not keep the sabbath, that is where you are at in your faith, and i respect that (though i do not want others in this forum to doubt their faith beceause of their lack of sabbath keeping), when you keep the sabbaath you Do it unto the LOrd, which is good, You worship your creator, you are reverant, you remember Him and what he has done, you tell him that He is special and important to you because you give him your time, that is ALL good. However it is also good when i don't treat one day as more sacred but treat everyday alike, and i try to worship God and pray continually (though having said that hte sabbath is special to me, but not because of the law.)
and in the same way, in the scriptures of the same chapter as a brother in love, i do not want to by my liberty and grace in Christ, if my freedom would cause you to stumble in your faith. So i would encourage you to continue observing the sabbath (for it is a good thing) until and beyond you come to a place to understand that it is not a neccisity (at which poiint the motivation for keeping it changes and keeping it - trust me becomes even more rich, for it is no longer keeping something of the law, but deep intimacy with Christ), so yes, do not go against your convictions and break the Sabbath, for it is good and neccisary to worship GOd, remember Him etc but remember

WORSHIP the Lord of the Sabbath, and not the Sabbath of the Lord.

love

Karl

oh and b.t.w beyond all this theology, welcome to the Board, you a coder? interested in christian games etc?

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 20, 2005).]

I always find your appreciation of my comments to be very encouraging because I respect you and what you have to say. In other venues I often times face alot of opposition and find little acceptance for what I have to say, as a result it is like a refreshing breeze when someone finds value in my conversation. The danger of course, which I do give in to, is be a little too seeking of encouragement and validation.

I found your post, the one you were editing while I was posting, to be very interesting. I had never noticed before that the sabbath was man's first day. I've been recently re-examining the genesis account looking at the details and realizing that God uses everything to teach us. Its been an amazing revelation, yet so simple. The world... and life, are so full of God. When God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, many people see in this God trying to with-hold knowledge from man. Yet the fact is, in giving this command, God taught adam and eve the first and most important principle of good and evil. It is clear when you think about Eve's conversation with the serpent, she knew it was wrong to disobey God, she knew it was evil. The real lesson there was that God wanted to be the source of our knowledge, and the standard. Man chose instead to be his own source and his own standard. Again in the creation of adam and eve.. "it is not good for man to be alone" and then the whole relationship between man and woman is an allegory for what God desires of man. His purpose all along was to be united with us the way we are (and will be) united to Christ. Even in the curse, man shall till the earth with toil to bring forth fruit, woman shall give birth through travail, all an allegory for the fact that now to be reborn, to grow, to become what we were meant to be, it shall all be accomplished through sorrow and trouble, but with great joy awaiting at the end. The more I look at the details the more I see there are profound truths all around us.

I also agree with your thoughts on honoring the sabbath and feasts etc. Those things were established by God for the jews, and we are not legaly bound to uphold them, it is not a matter of righteousness. However, most people's tendency, myself included, is to loose track of sacredness and holiness unless there are physical reminders of it all around. As paul says it may be a weakness to need holy days and things of that nature but it is a weakness common to most people. Thus I think it is valuable to honor holy days because it keeps sacredness in our mind and prevents us from too easily becoming profane. Furthermore, I think the feasts of the Old Testament are a part of God's prophetic revelation. The first four feasts were fulfilled by Jesus in his first advent (on the very day of the feast I might add) and the last three will be fulfilled in his second advent, I believe.
On a related note, I think God, being sacred and holy, likes some ceremony and pomp and maybe even a little ritual now and then. We just have to remember that its about God and what he wants from us, not about the ceremony itself. It seems as christians we are always walking a fine line and that we are constantly straying to one side or the other.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

And thank you again for your welcome. I also agree that we are to live everyday for Him, and love Him and serve Him with all of our heart, soul, and mind. That is obvious. We die to ourselves, and live in, through, Jesus, to God. But, it does not mean, that we are to excuse ourselves from honoring and observing God's Sabbath Day of Rest. It is a commandment, He said a perpetual commandment. He told us to keep it forever, through all of our generations. Read, Exodus 31:12-18, as I posted before. It has special meaning, as does all seven of the feast days, (which are High Sabbaths) which He also said to keep.

If you will read, as I said, Hebrews Ch. 4, (New Testament) and Isaih Ch. 56, as well as all most all of the prophecy chapters of the old testament, which tells us about the tribualation, and the set up of Jesus's earthly Kingdom, it tells us that we will even be doing this in His new Kingdom.

You really should read the whole book of Isaih ,which tells us in great length, what is going to happen. As does the other prophecy books, but Isaih is a good one to start with.

If you had read what I explained as the difference of what Jesus fullfilled, verses God's commandments, you might understand what Jesus fullfilled, was only the judgement of the law, the ordinances of the law, and the sacrificial animal rituals. Jesus, was the ultimate sacrifice, and our High Priest. He died once for all, and did not have to keep offfering His blood, it was perfect. The animals blood, was not. That is why they had to keep offering it over and over again. It was only a temporary offering for sins, that had to be offered over and over. Jesus fullfilled that, with His own blood, once for everyone. Now, the Bible tells us to offer Him the sacrifice of Praise and thanksgiving. Read the book of Hebrews, (New testament) it explains this.

If you will read my previous post, I explained this in more detail, about the fullfilled ordinances of the law. (what was fullfilled, of the ordinances, and that which is His everlasting commandments). We are saved by His Grace, yes, but as a result of that Salvation, and our sincere repentance, we naturally ,as a result of that salvation, and our true Love for God and His Son, and the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit, keep, and are enabled to keep, His commandments.

If you didn't mean your repentance, because you are not willing to totally surrender, and are not willing to give up self, and your own will, or this world, and you are not willing to keep His commandmnets, then you don't Love God, or at least not more than you Love yourself. And you truly didn't mean it or accept true salvation. God is a jealous God, and he will have no other god's before Him, including yourself.

"Hereby we do know that we love God, if we keep His commandments, and do the will of the father." (You will find most of these scriptures in the Books of John) As the Word of God , says. If we do not keep His commandments, then we do not Love Him, and was not sincere in our repentance, and did not receive His salvation.

"He who says that they know God, but willfully sin, does not know God." God says this is a sign, you will know those who love God, if they keep His commandments. This will be something you will do, because of the Love you have for God, you will love His commandments, His Law, His Word, you will meditate on it. The Holy Spirit shows you and enables you to keep His commandmnts, and leads you to all truth and light.

God says to come to Him with a sincere and broken heart, to surrender your will of self, to Him. When we do that, we no longer live to self, and self pleasures, wants, sesires, etc. But we live to God, His will, pleasures, desires, wants, etc. We live in Jesus, to God. We are bought and paid for by His blood, and we do not belong to this world anymore. We are reborn in His image, renewed by the Holy Spirit with a new spiritual mind and heart. And we have died to the carnal, wordly man. We no longer are to love the word and things in it, or self, but solely seek to please God, and do His work.

YOU CANNOT LIVE IN WILLFULL SIN, AND TAkE OUT GODS COMMANDMENTS, OR PICK WHICH ONES YOU WANT TO KEEP. IF YOU DO THIS, YOU ARE PUTTING YURSELF ABOVE GOD, MAKING YOURSELF A GOD.

He tells us that His commandments are true, and everlasting, read Psalms. Read the books of John.

And I will say it again. These perpetual commandments, are for us too. We are an Israelite! He who accepts God's offer of salvation. We are grafted into the Olive tree. We become an adopted fellow heir to the kingdom of God. We are Abraham's seed. He is the father of many Nations, just like God promised. We become one in Christ, one body, there is no difference, according to God. And He says we will have one law. Read the Bible! It tells you!

[This message has been edited by stacysangeltouch (edited February 20, 2005).]

Simon, your message was true, keep studying. You are beginning to get the message, from God. That there is more in the scriptures then meets the eye. If you really want to know the spirtiual meaning and examples in the Word, then you really have to pray for that wisdom, and prove yourself a worthy steward, by studying and mediating on His Word.

But, you error, concerning His commandments being nailed to the cross. Pray for wisdom here. Jesus fullfilled only the ordinances of the law, and the written judgements, (code of the law) that was against us, and that we were judged by, and I mean literally and physically, judged by man, and not just God, if we broke the law. We wre under the code of law, which was judged by man, the priest, etc., not just God. We could be put to death, etc., if we broke this law. The gentiles was not under the old covenanant, and was not God's people under this law, and God told the Hebrew to slay the people out of the land that He was giving to them, under this law.

To say that God's commandments are nailed to the cross,is simply not Biblical. He plainly tells us over and over again, if you love me, keep my commandments, etc. And God's word does not err, people do, by leaning to their own understanding, and wrongly interpretating the scriptures.

And yes, we do find rest in Jesus, when we truly accept Him, And that is my point. And He tells us because of that Rest He gives to us, we are to Honor and observe His Day, as He commanded.

It does not say to esteem this day over the other, or only serve and love Him on this day. Or to sin the rest of the time, and just not this day. But to Remember this day as His Sabbath Day of rest, to also rest from our works on this day, by honoring and observing it, and not defiling it.

The Scribes and Pharisees yes, mocked God's Law, and the whole law and commandmnents, not just the Sabbath. They did not make God's Sabbath Day an idol, but rather, they made themselves an idol, and self an god. Because they loved themselves, money, power, etc. more than God. They only pretended to Honor God, on the outside, but on the inside, they were raven wolves. And taught the people to stray away from God. They honored Him with their lips, but their heart was far from Him.

The Hebrews today, most of them, not all of them, error by not recognizing Jesus came already. They keep all of His commandments, but it does them no good, because of their unbelief. They do not no more idolize the Sabbath, then any of the other commandments, but put themselves again, as their own gods, because they do not believe the word of God. But choose to believe their own man-made and false doctorine.

Under the new covenant, we all come under the Grace of God, if we accept, we all become one people, one body in Christ, with one law. We are wild branches, grafted into the Olive tree. We are adopted and become fellow heirs to the Kingdom of God. We are Abraham's seed.

We are Israelites, who take a hold of God's covenant, and accept His free gift of salvation.

[This message has been edited by stacysangeltouch (edited February 20, 2005).]

the one thing i leave, as a challenge, is a study on what the Commandments of Jesus actually are, actually that would be a cool forum wide activity IMO.

on a more forum issue, your first post in this thread is completely a quote of mellonamin, but it seems like words from you. Looks like an innocent quoting problem, If this is the case, coould you please edit that post and remove the quoting

but back to the question i asked you in the last thread,
what are your interested programming wise, or game design wise?

God Bless

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

I could ask the same of you. I have gave you numerous scriptue context for a reason to believe, I really don't believe you care to understand, because it is more comfortable to go on believing what you want to believe.

And I can see that it is of no use to give scripture to you and ask you to read it, because you have totally ignored what I have gave to you for factual reading, and have danced around it with scripture that you mis-interpret.

But, with that said, it is your opinion, and I can not change that. And, you have no write to ask me to change anything I have posted, as I have not asked you to change yours.

I will leave you with this, as I have said before, be careful what you teach others, because you will be held accountable for it.

Don't bother with a reply, I don't cast my pearls befoe swine, who become rude, when confronted with truth, because it is a threat to them.

Hope you are ready, living a Holy life, when He comes back, and it will be very soon!

May God bless those who obey Him and keep His commandments!
This will be my last post. Thank all of you who welcomed me.

i didn't want you to change anything you wrote, but rather a misquoting problem as your post shows up as if somebody else had said it and you were quoting them, that is all. I was just being a moderator in that sense, and it had confused even me, but i can go back and change it myself. you wouldn't have liked me to write a complete post with my theories and made it look like a quote from you right? (even though i understand it was just an accident)

as for the other things, i'm sad you feel that way about me. as for those scriptures, i used to believe much more along the lines you did, if you were willing to stick around i could share that past also.

I did not intent to be rude to you, and i'm sorry that i offended you as such.
throughout this thread, i've actually defended the Sabbath in some areas, and our conversation has triggered others to ponder the subject that is often not even thought about amoungst christians.

Karl the Swine
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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 22, 2005).]

I'm used to being on the receiving end of things like that. Its what happens when you dare to oppose those wise in their own eyes. Sometimes it makes you question if you were rude, or too harsh, or too confrontational (and I have been guilty of all those things on more than one occasion) but in the end you begin to realize that insults from some are a mark of honor. Of course that usually doesn't make you feel much better about it

Josh

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Also, It is natural to want to change someone's thoughts and opinions, especially if they conflict with your own. Both people "know" that they are right, and if a person is not open to be changed, they should not try to change others. It is like the blind leading the deaf, so to speak.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.