General Christian Discussions

Babies, Born Sinners? – Brandon

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
From my childhood, I as many others, have been taught that babies are born sinners. But a couple of weeks ago when I was at Bible Study, my pastor (Dr. George W. Westlake) brought up a very interesting point. He said that babies are born A-Moral. And that they are not sinners. And where the Bible says that we are born in sin can be interpreted as in the midst of sin. This is one of the passages that he showed us so that we might understand what he meant.


1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


The part that struck me was verse 22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

We can easily look at the first part of the verse and say that yes all die because of Adams sin. All meaning everyone, but now let's look at the last part of verse 22. even so in Christ shall all be made alive. So does this mean that ALL as in EVERYONE will be made alive in Christ (or shall be saved)? No, I don't think that it can mean that, because everyone has not been saved. So what does ALL mean in our context then?

As he continued on, it became clear to me that ALL in our context is speaking of all those who choose to sin, and all those that choose to be saved. So can a baby choose between right and wrong? I honestly don't think so.

I think that it's about choice, and that a child can't sin until he is old enough to make a moral decision. Well, that said, I want to hear others viewpoints on this.

God Bless!

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[This message has been edited by Brandon (edited March 05, 2004).]

Torial

Member

Posts: 73
From: Cedar Rapids, Ia, USA
Registered: 07-23-2002
I've heard scriptural arguments both ways, and for grins I decided to do a google search. Here's a bunch of links discussing the Age of Accountability. 50% are for and 50% are against.. and for at least slightly different reasons.

http://www.biblebell.org/accountability.html
http://members.aol.com/twarren13/account.html
http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm090_17.htm
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2140
http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs16.htm
http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html

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A must read: http://www.christiancoders.com/cgi-bin/articles/show_article.pl?f=christiancaleb01112002.html

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
You don't have to teach a child to be naughty... it's like, in it's genes.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
yeah, I would say that. we have become fallen by nature. (that sounds contradictory, but it's not)

but, also, to be a sinner, methinks you have to sin.

hmmm.. but all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...

dunno really, pretty undecided.

but one thing I do know (sry, I had to say that. listening to "liquid" by jars of clay now) is that God is loving and just.

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nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
I think your question is valid, but I think you are examining the wrong element. It isn't an issue of who dies or lives as much as it is about the type of death/life in reference.
Adam lived to be 930 years old before he died physically. But we won't live that long (many of us would be fortunate to live 1/10th of that).
The issue is a matter of spiritual death and spiritual resurrection. In Adam we all die in every aspect - spiritual and physical. The physical death is a consequence of sin and cannot be reversed by any physical means (no matter how hard people try). The spiritual death is a direct result of sin and can only be restored by a spiritual process.
Another way to look at it is this: The sin of Adam and Eve resulted in instant spiritual separation from God and the repercussion of that instant spiritual separation was physical deterioration. Just remember, you can't gain a new life unless you've lost it. The spiritual part of each of us is dead to God from birth, thus the concept of being born again. The same principle applies to the physical body, and thus the concept of a new body when the new Earth and new Jerusalem are set in place as referenced in the book of Revelation.
There is more that is compounded on top of this, but that discussion goes into many other elements that I'm unsure you intend to get into.

On the issue of an "age of acountability", there really is little to go on scripturally to support such a doctrine. To clarify, when you look at the custom of the Isrealites and how they reared their children you can understand that discipline and instruction began immediately upon birth. Anyone who has witnessed the birth of a child and is a parent can understand some of these things. It does not take long for a child to make a "moral decision" to do wrong. Honestly, it can happen within months depending on the circumstances. But, really there is no such thing as a moral decision to sin - it is a natural behavior to do wrong. It is a moral decision to do right (to not sin), and by using the term "moral decision" I am implying a degree of conscious and intelligent thought.
This is the concept of a renewed mind.

Now, I'm not saying children are not innocent or don't go to heaven when they die before having that "choice" to make. I'm saying what scripture says, not anything more or anything less. I hope that whatever you do believe is with that same philosophy.

Skynes
Member

Posts: 202
From: Belfast, N Ireland
Registered: 01-18-2004
'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy' sprigns to mind. As does 'I would have not known sin but by the law'

My view on it goes like this: Without law there is no knowledge of sin. I remeber vaguely something about if you don't know it's sin then it isn't sin.

I'm for the age of accountability cause I know God won't hold someone responsible for an action (or lack thereof) if they never had the choice.
God has mercy on whoever he wants. So I don't think it's as clear as a solid Yes or No. God chooses himself

How it all works I have no idea - that would require knowing the mind of God which is impossible for us.

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
Good points, I will do more reading on this subject.

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bennythebear

Member

Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
i don't believe anyone who hasn't heard, or couldn't understand the gospel has to worry about it, but i also believe that everyone who needs it has at least one chance, one time GOD will reach out to them. it could be something as simple as an invitation to church, because GOD will be working in their hearts and minds, so they won't be ignorant. but take a person who was born mentally handicapped, and stayed that way their entire life, they stay a child. kids without problems(abuse, etc) that alter thier personalities are the perfect, as close as humanly possible anyway, CHRISTians. they make mistakes, but their sorry for it, and they fear and love their father's, and just want to please them. their quick to forgive, carefree, mainly they just rely on their parent(s) to do everything. i don't know if any of what i just said made sense or had to do with the topic...oh well, hope somebody get's something from it. later and GOD bless.
D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
One point which would to me show that any argument against isn't really valid is, that Jesus had to be born of a virgin, so that he wasn't from the sin line.

It's past from generation to generation, thats why Jesus could never be the fruits of a man.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
hmmm... but isn't Jesus still born of the fruits of a man though, because Mary was born from the fruits of a man. I thought that Jesus being born of a virgin was more so to show that God was performing a miracle, and that Jesus was the one prophesized in the Old Testement.


"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."


My main point though was that the Bible says, in Adam all die, and by Christ all are made alive. So what I was basically saying was that "all" can't mean "everyone ever created" because it also says that "all" are made alive in Christ, and sadly , we all know that "everyone ever created" has not and will not been saved.

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nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
I think you are taking the verse in a matter-of-fact manner. Perhaps you should consider it in this way:
For as through Adam all die, even so through Christ shall all be made alive.

According to Strong's Concordance, the word "in" is the Greek word "ejn" and is defined as meaning "in, by, with, etc." The origin of the word is "a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 [Greek word eijB] and 1537 [Greek word ejk])". [ taken from www.crosswalk.com, http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv ]

Strictly spiritually speaking, I think the point is that we are all dead as descendants of Adam but made alive only when we are adopted into the family of Christ. The concept of an age of acountability is a hard thing to prove through scripture (there are valid points on boths sides of the argument). Sincerely speaking (and trying to be careful when I say this), the issue of an age of acountability is one of those areas that don't really apply to the big picture of Christianity. Yes, it is an insight on the attributes of God, but it has no bearing on the whole process of the lordship of Christ in one's life.

One thing to remember about Adam and Eve is that Eve was taken out of Adam - made from his side. Eve was created by God from the man He also created. When Christ was born, the seed that was used to germinate the egg in Mary was from God - not man. So, therefore, Jesus was not born of the fruits of man. Jesus being born of a virgin was to prove that God was interceding on the behalf of mankind to redeem mankind from eternal damnation (the path that mankind had chosen by rejecting God so many times throughout history, and still does today). It was a miracle not just that Jesus was born of a virgin, but that Jesus was (is) the Messiah to redeem mankind from sin and the wages of sin.
Everyone ever created can be saved - but it is a choice each one has to make. It is entirely possible that all ever created will be saved - that is the magnitude of God's love. His offer extends to all people at any moment in their life - but it has to be a decision made in life, not an afterthought of death. Until the spirit of man is made alive through Christ, physical death is the end of that hope for eternal life with God. Physical death is the expiration date of God's offer to each of us - and this is the severity behind the motivation to witness to others, so that they might find that hope and truly live before their time has come.

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
Hi nfektious. Great points! And also, I agree when you say that the issue of an age of accountability is one of those areas that don't really apply to the big picture of Christianity. We have to trust God, he is just. I'll be sure to get my ducks in a row before I post on something like this again .

"When in doubt... to the Greek!"

hmm... that could make a nice sig...


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Atomic Team Entertainment
http://www.atomicteam.com

[This message has been edited by Brandon (edited March 24, 2004).]