I read a book not to long ago entitled "Wild at Heart" by John Eldridge. The book talks of how in every man there are three basic "principles" so to speak. "Every man has a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue" was one quote from the book and it just gave the whole pretense that no man wishes to be called a "nice guy" and that every man was specially engineered in God's image and this image has imposed different things on us men then those things on women.

To me, it seems true and that bibilical basis could be understood from coming from Genesis. But I have always had this fear of being "tricked" or taught something ungodly and believing it to be true. I went along with the whole idea of the book until a friend of mine was saying how we should turn the other cheek when attacked. And that any sort of fighting back or of a desire to win or anything of that sort was of the old "fleshly" nature, and in turn we should nip it in the bud.

I guess what I am trying to say is that when faced with great oppression and such, as christians should we fight back? Or should we, so to speak, "turn the other cheek"

The bell rang, I gotta head off to class, See yah guys later
Wacko

[This message has been edited by Wacko4X (edited December 19, 2003).]

usually those three questions well help you either prep for the fight or calm down and realize it isn't worth it---there is a need to declare your self worth----but also some people are completely stupid and you would gain more ground arguing with a Chia Pet than that person---so pick your battles.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

But, remember, in every battle, look at why you are fighting. the answer lies there. It's what your heart is.

I think that "turning the other cheek" is a term to describe being unselfcentered...
however, if someone hit my (future) girlfriend or something... I'd pummel him so hard, they would be able to tell his head from his foot...

nobody likes to be called a "nice" guy? I do.. girls like "nice guys"... oh yeah... "nice" guys can kick serious booty... like really.. nice and weak are two different things... being nice requires being strong... how can you defend your loved ones if you're weak? no,... must... be... ripping...with...beef...
(sry.. I got carried away... go on with your lifes, people...)

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There are moments when you must break up your relationship with another person, but you do not end love by taking that action. It is a facet of love that you must let others pursue their will - whether it is good for them or bad. God does this to each of us; shouldn't we treat one another the same way if we call ourselves his children?
There is an old saying, "Sometimes you are the only God others will ever see."
If we are followers and disciples of God, shouldn't we take every step we can to make sure others understand and learn from us what God is really like? Is the God others know the God that the world around us defines, or is it the true God of love, mercy, hope, justice, forgiveness and salvation? Which God are you an example of?

Happy holidays to all of you. God bless.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

BTW, I only read the first post in this thread.

I am pretty sure that it's all in the motives. (to repeat myself)

to be honest... I'm pretty unclear about all of this.
when it comes to protecting others and stuff, I'm all for fighting back.
but when it's just you.... I don't know.
for one, however... don't seek revenge.

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I agree with what you said zookey but for whatever reason, I feel there is a bit more to it than just asking questions (following through on your answers maybe?)

And funny thing is ArchAngel I agree with you to (about pummiling someone who is hurting a close friend/relative/love/etc..) and yet my first course would be to get her (or whoever) to safety. If he wants more, well then he can come and get me. Just my understanding is that it is one of the worst times to ever leave a women and settle a vendetta (that is after she has been phyiscally/emotionally hurt/humiliated. In my opinion (well specifically if I was married) after "rescuing" my wife I would try and comfort her, If the person who hurt her in some way comes at us then I attack, but in no way should I drop her off and than chase the guy down. Do you get what I am saying? A loved ones' well-being is top-priority (not that that isnt the same for you Arch, but I just wanted to state that )

Wow, and nfektious - good stuff man,I have to say your comment really put the whole "turn the other cheek" thing into focus.

I guess my will for myself (and hopefully this is fully aligned with Gods') is that I should "die to my oldself" and not care whether a comment or physical punishment (even to death) comes towards myself. But if someone I love, or someone I am responsible for is being hurt then top priority is protecting them. So to speak, loyalty in love goes above your own physical body and mind.

LOL, I always confuse myself when I "speak" but I am not sure how else to phrase my thoughts Oh, well... God Bless yah guys! And Merry Christmas!
Wacko

I got really mad when John Eldridge talked in his book about how he encouraged his son to fight back against the bully that had been giving him a hard time. My views basically coincide with nfektious' (nice post dude!).

I also got really burned up when John ripped on "nice guys." He said that nice guys were missing some masculine aspect of themselves, and thus were left feeling unfulfilled and unsatisfied throughout their lives. Well you know what? I'm a nice guy, and I feel just GREAT! In fact, I couldn't imagine myself being at peace if I wasn't a nice guy! I think a lot of people (including me) get their identity from being nice guys. John is causing those people unnecessary frustration, confusion, and pain by mixing in his personal views about nice guys with his advice for godly living as a man.

I just had to get that out of my system.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

I think society definitely approves of the idea of justice and the using of 'reasonable force' but I'd really like to tie that to scripture before I accept it. I can't think of any NT examples of approved retalliation (even where it's justified) where it was approved. One thing I can say is that it definitely would take more strength to NOT fight, than to fight, so that lack of manliness stuff is a load of crud, for sure.
Thanks.

Jesus overturned the tables and drove out the people and the animals because these people had violated the sacred nature of the temple. It was time to prepare for the feast of passover, the reminder of the exodus from Egypt and the salvation of Israel from bondage. The temple is to be a place of cleanliness - the participants in the ceremonies were to wash their hands before doing anything inside, signifying righteousness. Clearly the boldness these people had in taking animals into the temple alone was a total disregard for the law and the season approaching. To even attempt to sell an animal from within the temple only adds to the disrespect they already displayed. If anyone should have cleansed the temple from this filth, it should have been the priests. So who better to do this than the highest priest of all? To disregard it would have been as participating in the violation directly. These people were lucky to leave with their life, considering that the law against such things was not so merciful.

Regarding the death of Christ as retaliation: actually, the birth of Christ was the "retaliation" against Satan. But it wasn't so much retaliation as it was reconciliation. Satan coerced Eve and Adam into ruining the perfect creation of God - not this world, but their very self. Christ's death was the resolution to the thousands of years that Satan's deceit had corrupted what once was perfect, and prepared the opportunity for God's creation to once again be restored to that perfection. Christ's resurrection was the defeat of Satan's power over corrupt mankind.
The notion that God is retaliation towards Satan implies that there is a battle between God and Satan. The battle is on the part of Satan against God, with God protecting that which belongs to Him. Satan is the one at war with God, not God with Satan. It is a complex issue to interpret, because we naturally look at it as a war - God does this, Satan does that, so God does this, then Satan does that. But it is more like God drawing a circle, Satan bumps the pencil, so God makes a correction, and Satan bumps the pencil again. God is focused on completing that circle - maybe it isn't a perfect circle, but God makes sure it ends where it starts; but Satan, he wants it to be as messed up as it can be if he can't stop it entirely. It's not a great analogy, I know, but it gets the point across.

Don't you think that if Satan were to concede his pride, repent of it and turn away from sin to live in righteousness, that he would be forgiven just as we are? I know it is a baffling concept to consider - Satan repenting, but it is a matter of the nature of God, not so much the nature of Satan...isn't it? Even moreso for us, the nature of God willing and ready to accept us as his perfect creation, regardless of our past nature.

It was a good couple of questions though

so, what does this guy say about "nice" guys? sounds like he has a problem with insecurity. I think it's all about insecurity. a real tough guy doesn't need to show everybody he's tough, he just is. he has nothing to prove. but a weaker guy, well... he feeling kinda weak, so he needs to convince other people that he is tough. I have one friend is a really nice guy, he is also super ripped and is no push-over. I got another friend who I could beat up (hasn't happened tho and he would deny it too) who tends to push on people a little more.

whooooaa..... hold on... he said we're missing some masculinity!?!? WHAT!?!? NEVER!!!! hmmm, sounds like he needs some of his philosophy his way.. (jk)

my point is being tough and nice can coincide quite well, to create an idea we call "Man" (and hey... what girl wouldn't like that? ye-ah!)

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i've often contemplated the situation of say a robber breaking into our house , and threatening my wife with a gun or such.. My either 1) normal human response would be to try to subdue him with 'reasonable force' 2) jump in front of the gun and give my life for my wife (though that doesn't stop bullet number 2 going for her, but that would be outside of my control)..

However lets say that the only way i could save her was to kill this guy, (or for a more real situation ,if there were 5 guys, though with one i could subdue one at a time, but more i would have to kill each one to garantee that i would have any chance of survival and protecting my family).

the question would be, would i basically send shorten a man's life by my own hands, taking away any chance of him hearing the gospel and coming to Christ, to save my life and my wife's lives - who are already saved and for whom our death is just passing from this world into glory?

definately a difficult choice.

how far are you willing to go to protect your spouse or such? would you go so far as denying christ? (like in communist places, so many people were given the ultimatum of denying Christ or watching their families be killed before they are - only to have the wife take the strength nfecktious was talking about , pleading with her husband not to deny christ.

also i know of hundreds of testimonies of people who came to christ through the behaviour of their victims as they killed their victims.

also another thing about fighting back, goes further that the turning the other cheek , it goes to the issue of faith. When we fight back in our own strength, we are relying on our own strength to save us, to get us out of our situation.

it takes faith to believe that you are in God's hands, that if it is not your time to go and meet him, and that He still has plans and purposes for you on this earth (other than through your matyrdom) that He will save you, that He is your fortress and He will defend you and save you, despite what your eyes tell you. And i have know again of hundreds of testimonies of God saving people from apparent doom in amazing ways. whether it be by the assiliant seing angels or other such means. I choose to trust in God - not myself.

For such a situation, what i pray is that at the time, i would not be drawn into my fears and emotions, that i would have the peace of Christ that transcends all understanding, that i would hear His voice as to how to act, that His wisdom would be in me, and the Holy Spirit would speak through me, that i would not be a coward, but would be bold - but i would be filled with love, not just for my loved one, but for my enemy who is attacking me.

but i not saying its always wrong to fight back, and you should always be a doormat in every situation. When i was at high school, for about a year i 'turned the other cheek' and others new its so much and would just basically assult me everyday because it was so funny.. I was mostly turning the other cheek more because i didn't accept myself, had had an abusive childhood and it was a way to hurt myself. You respect yourself as a creature of God, and don't just let yourself get abused for no reason, i wish to suffer for Christ and Christ alone. Also letting people contiually walk over you isn't loving them either, standing up to them - best with bold words of wisdom and the truth can set them free in the end and is the most loving thing to do. I think there is a time to physically 'be a man' and physically defend your family as well. But it takes dicernment and the right heart. and really having the faith in God in all things. i strongly agree with what matt/nfectious had to say

as we are humans, often our responses are mixed with flesh , which blurs the lines.

i know in some cases when there was one person on the ground being beaten up by many people, i have jumped in to help the innocent, and fought others off with my hands very succesfully.. though part of my motives were pure and my actions were honerable, flesh was mixed in, afterwards i was proud of myself for my strength and what i achieved , and for helping the other person. i acted out of the flesh mostly, even if it was to bring justice and help the innocent.

other times God has given me words of wisdom that have scattered many assialiants.
Has anybody ever started preaching at somebody who is attacking them. i have been quite suprised by some of the responses, some running away because they think you are loony or more dangerous than they are, but other times they are at a crossroads in their lives , ripe for the gospel, but are doing a desperate act in their desperation. I have heard of many such cases.

i hope i brought up some interesting points of discussion for you all
Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

and whether I would deny him access to heaven? well that depends if everything is predestined or not. not saying you can go around killing people who won't become christians. that's wrong.
I believe that the world is predestined. (I'm not trying to change topic.)

would I go as far as too deny Christ? never. As much as I would love my wife, she would have to be second to God. and she would also want it that way.

basically, live with love, even if that means fight with love.

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--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

I believe when it says "vengence is mine, sait the LORD" it means, revenge is His, as in, don't hate, seek vengence, etc.
Fighting as in protecting, I believe is fine. to be repitious, it's in the motives. never hate, that's the main point.

also, God uses people as His tools. He wants us to trust in Him, but also do, to take action. basically, my point is here that sometimes is necessary to fight back.

I believe it is very possible to fight without hate. not only possible, but sometimes necessary.

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To all:
Read Luke 6:27-49. The words of Jesus in that passage go directly against the entire concept of revenge, retaliation, retribution, etc.

Compare these:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=revenge
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vengeance

Read this passage: John 18 - 19:30. See for yourself how Christ reacted when threatened, accused, beaten and dying. The circumstances and events of this passage have no affect on Christ's character and message of love and forgiveness.
Was Christ an example? Is he supposed to be our example? If Christ was of God, then Christ cannot be contrary to God. If vengeance is the Lord's then it was also Christ's, yet Christ did not seek vengeance when he was struck wrongly for telling the truth to Annas. Christ didn't allow the evil to go uncorrected, but he didn't exact vengeance either.
So what cause do we have to fight back? And how does one fight and not entertain hatred toward a person? How is fighting justified or even necessary?

If it is okay to fight, when does a "Christian" employ the type of love in 1 Corinthians 13? Do we pull a twisted version of "The Good Samaritan" - pounce someone and get our satisfaction, then turn around and bandage the wounds we caused in the name of Christ?
What is different from doing that physically and doing that emotionally or mentally? Don't we still injure to justify our own pain? Don't we become hypocrites in our testimony if we fight and hurt someone, whether or not we leave any visible scars?

Fighting is more than an action; it is an attitude. The question is: Does fighting reveal the attitude of someone who has been spiritually reborn, practicing the daily physical chores of living like someone dedicated to God, exercising the mental processes of transformed thinking and understanding? Or is Christianity something less?

May you grow closer to God each passing day, and shine His light in the world you live.
Matt

quote:

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Originally posted by nfektious:
To Archangel:
Do you interpret that passage to say "Don't hate when you repay the evil has been done to you"? You left me wondering what you believe that verse means. Can you clarify your interpretation.

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?
repaying the evil done to you? that's God's job. Vengence is His....
I don't understand where you got that from.

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The main thing I wanted to say was that I find it very hard to believe that anyone (Human *not* God or Hypo-static union) would be able to just allow a woman to be raped and killed right in front of them. I do not see how this is possible with the whole notion of thinking that "its all in God's hands", and believing that nothing should be done because *IF* there was something that could be done God would do it. Or even the idea that "Oh, yah its okay because I know she is saved". To me, I just want to scream coward.

Now let me clarify a few things with my "coward" comment. Do I think God has a plan for everything? Yes. Do I think God can accomplish anything with or without anyone? Yes. Do I think God deeply cares for and values not only the Rapie but the Raper? Yes. Do I think God knows the best in all situations and that is why he allows such evil to be apart of this world? Yes. Do I think God placed me on this world to just sit by and watch as Satan walks among the earth like a roaring lion? Definatly Not. Do I believe that I can cause a man to "prematurely" die from my personal actions? No. Why? Because I believe everything has been pre-seen, pre-lived, and pre-experianced by God, Therefore it is impossible for me to "change fate" so to speak. It is firmly rooted in my mind that it is utterly and completly impossible to change, foil, or in any case destroy a piece or part of Gods' plan. So what would my course of action be? Something.

Sorry I aint in a "lets talk things over peaceable like" mood right now. But from the bottom of my heart I want to wish for all of you people Great God-Given Wisdom and a peace that transcends all understanding. Take Care!
Wacko

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"Do or do not!, there is no try." ~ Yoda

God wouldn't want you to kill someone, but if you did it, he already knew about it long ago. It wasn't his plan, just he knew you would do it.

Hope that makes sense? Maybe i miss read what you meant?

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

It is good to want to do something, as long as that "something" is in agreement with what God wants. If "something" is killing another person because they did some wrong, you have gone beyond letting God work through you to taking authority from God. Even though through Christ we are not under the law of the Old Testament, that law is not void. Christ clarified the purpose of that law and that means it still applies even though God's grace has cleansed us from breaking it.

I understand how you feel about a woman being raped. It bothers me just as much. But there are worse things in this world. None of the evil that we hear about or witness should be a shock to us. They are people just acting natural. And for those of us who are Christian, we were like that once - at least, we had that same capability.

Another important point: none of us can know what another has been through unless it is revealed. Personally, I choose to be careful with the data I reveal about myself and those near and dear to me; in that sense, it is hard to understand where I am coming from on some issues. If it seems as if I'm being overly optimistic all I can say is I have learned these things after experiencing some very difficult trials. I know God brought me through them because I understand more than I ever did before and I have grown closer to him as a result. To me, that is what true peace and wisdom is.

God bless

quote:

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Originally posted by Wacko4X:
The main thing I wanted to say was that I find it very hard to believe that anyone (Human *not* God or Hypo-static union) would be able to just allow a woman to be raped and killed right in front of them.

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I know what you mean... I would say that person would be partly guilty of that crime.
It's not very loving to let that happen to the girl, would it?
don't hate the guy, but stop him.

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