rijel Member Posts: 14 From: Registered: 11-18-2002 |
Hi. Do you think that it's OK to read Lord of the Rings? Also, do you think that it's OK to read Harry Potter? Do you think they are differant? They both have wizards and magic so does that mean that they are bad? I've read LotR and I think thats it's OK but do you think otherwise? I want to know what people think, so speak freely. |
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rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
I think LOTR and Harry Potter are very different even though they appear to deal with a lot of the same subjects. In LOTR, there is always a clear distinction between good and evil, but in Harry Potter, no distinction is made, we are told instead that "there is only power". This is almost certianly due to the fact that Tolkien was a Christian, and Rowlings studied the occult religion of Wicca for her books. Good article on Harry Potter ------------------ |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I think it's sad that so many 'christian's live their lives in such fear. Every show on TV is rubbish ( i.e. not true ). So are most books. The 'power' referred to in Harry Potter and LOTR is also rubbish. It's a story, it has no meaning. I think it's important that kids learn to distinguish between what's real and what is imaginary. My kids will be free to read Harry Potter when they are old enough ( by which I mean when they can read a book of that complexity ) and they already understand that it's make believe and the Bible is not. | |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Christian, why do you say the power of LoTR and Harry Potter is rubbish? | |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
Because it is. It's all make believe, there are no witches, no magic spells, no poltergeits and no monsters under the bed. | |
TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
Unfortunately, evil is very real, and the occult is very real, and very evil. I haven't read or seen Harry Potter so I won't comment on that, but I have read the Lord of the Rings, and have seen the first of the Rings movies. In it evil is portrayed as exactly what it is---powerful and destructive. Those who delve into it suffer for their foolishness. Those who do not benefit from having resisted. They don't get a free ride by any means, but in the end they gain so much more than this world has to offer. Tolkien was decidely not trying to write a Christian allegory, yet his faith shines through it in so many ways. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
In the Bible, the devil had no power except he was granted it by God. His power was mainly that of lies. For example, the lie that one can sell ones soul to the devil, that 'dark forces' possess power of any sort beyond delusion. The most famous example of course is 'did God really say', in the garden.
quote: With respect, the Bible never suggests this, nor have I ever seen it to be true. The only examples I can think of are people like Alistair Crowley, who did not seem to me to derive any benefit from it, not that was visible at least. I maintain that it is all a crock, and that the basic problem is that in general churches who have 'the form of Godliness but deny the power thereof' seem to both be ignorant of God's power, and as a result presume that the power is all on the other side. Not in the Bible, or in the real world. Perhaps in comic books. Evil is real, the occult is real, in so far as it is true that people believe that rubbish. It is evil, in that it presents an alternative to God. In that it is no better or worse than Islam, athiesm or Buddhism, and not as bad as Catholicism or JW's, who make people think they *are* following Jesus. I once attended a church who preached mainly about the power of the devil, the devil was in my music, my long hair, the media, he was about to take over the world and carve numbers in our heads, etc. I've never known people so scared. You'd be forgiven for thinking they worshipped the devil, that's what they talked about and where they thought the power was. I also remember some youth rally guy talking about human sacrifice and the occult, as it is an every day thing. I'm sure it happens, but only because people are amoral and stupid. It's really not a Christian issue, but a legal one. Murder is murder, but it's because people are sick and twisted, not because of any satanic power. In truth most of the world is fooled by this garbage because they think that if they do what feels right to them, they are OK because they believe John 3:16, that they actually have to 'sell their soul to the devil' in some black mass in order to be unsaved, when the truth is they were born unsaved and remain that way until they follow Jesus. THAT is the danger of all this occult talk, it makes the majority of unsaved people think that hell is choice, as opposed to the default setting we are born with. |
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Curry Member Posts: 134 From: USA Registered: 11-21-2002 |
I think it's hard for someone to be completely wrapped up in a project without imbedding some of their values in it. There are a lot of kid's books, TV shows, and movies that should be great, and sometimes are pretty good, but some of the values of the unChristian and often anti-Christian people making it always come through, sometimes very obvious and sometimes subtle, but on society, I think the effect is cumulative. Tolkien on the other hand was writing from a Christian worldview and psychology, so good values and thoughts came through and were imbedded even though the explicit content is not Christian or allegorical of Christianity. Obviously, Potter can appeal to some kids about the occult, but I'm just as concerned about the quality and the need to have something meaningful and thoughtful in children's lit. I've tried to read Harry Potter, but I just can't force myself to go very far. I find nothing of the slightest interest. Just as people point out the lack of moral differentiation in Potter compared to Tolkien's books, in my opinion Harry doesn't offer much intellectually--compared to anything, much less something like Tolkien's work. I've looked at the current offerings and I think kids now have very few books written in their time with much substance. It's all superficial junk-food reading or liberal social engineering. Probably LOTR could also appeal to those interested in occult or new age, not just Christians. But definitely, it has a lot to offer mentally and even morally, unlike Potter. The fact that kids are crazy about Potter says to me just how bleak the literary environment is--I hope some Christians and good moral thinkers contribute more, because kids and society need it.
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I agree with you, I am very careful what I let my daughter watch on TV, because the real power is the power of suggestion, just like in the garden. A lot of kids shows teach disrespect of parents and authority, advertising teaches them that they *need* to consume constantly, in both books and TV the best stuff is at least 50 years old. I don't expect everything to teach her about the Bible, but I prefer for her at this young age to idolise people with good values. As she gets older she will be free to roam a little more in her choices, because I'll expect that she will learn to discern what is good and what is bad. But at the age of 6, she is surprisingly naive, and easily led. I can tell by how she behaves if she has seen the Simpsons at her cousins house, for example. | |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Something for everyone to read: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0137.html If you don't believe the power of Satan is real - that magick and other offshoots are genuine - then you are deceived by the Deceiver himself and I pray with Hope that your spiritual eyes and ears are opened. I'd be happy to share more information if need be, but I prefer to do so through private email for various reasons. God Bless, |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
1 John 4:1-6 . . . "You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world" -1 John 4:4 Matthew 10:28 . . . Be comforted that you can overcome any power that Satan has, but be wary of attempts to turn you away from the faith. Regardless of how much supernatural power God has allowed him to have, he's still trying his hardest to turn God's people away from the truth.
quote: Catholicism is a tricky issue - although it is true the teachings are not Christian, it's been my experience that many "Catholic" churces deviate from the true teachings of Catholicism, often to the point of being Christian. Your mileage may vary . . . I wouldn't recommend Catholicism to anybody; Martin Luther had very good reasons for leaving, and I agree that Catholicism is not formally christian. I just don't think I would go around telling every Catholic he (or she) is going to hell either . . . |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
*grin* I am not in the habit of telling people they are going to hell..... nfektious, I tend to believe the Bible over Catholic websites. You are free to believe what you choose. Ultimately, I believe that God is the greatest power, so it doesn't really matter to me if the other side has more power now than the Bible ever indicates. So I can afford to be wrong, but no-one's personal experience is going to prove anything to me that the Bible simply does not say. |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
What does the site being a Catholic website have to do with anything? Did you read the article? The subject matter of the article is documented fact. It really doesn't matter what I choose to believe; what matters is what is true. My personal persuasions can be founded on whatever makes sense to me but that doesn't make that truth; it might be my understanding of truth, but the absolutes are unchanged. I really don't understand your comments. The Bible doesn't say alot of things that are fact. There are foundational principles that the Bible teaches that cover every facet of life, but still the words are not there for you to read and say "See, there is no such thing". If you don't accept personal experience how can you expect your personal experience to be effective to others? Your testimony is built on such things, is it not? The things you are thankful to God for are based on the experiences you have had, are they not? How can you discard personal experiences so easily? All the people Jesus ministered too related their personal experiences to others to share the truth! The blind who were healed, the lame who walked again, the demoniac in Mark 5 who was possessed by LEGION (not one demon, but many of them - practically an army of them if you research this out) - these all and many more shared their experience, their testimony, with others! For that matter, the Bible doesn't specifically say anything about tongues being a language of heaven. Where does that notion come from? "..I speak with the tongues of men and angels.."? That doesn't cut it for me. Anything can be read into that statement, and the interpretation that that refers to tongues being a heavenly language is only one view. Angels sing and praise God in Heaven; there is no evidence that the Angels and God speak to each other. Everytime an Angel spoke to a man it was in his own language. How else can an Angel tell someone to not be afraid so they don't think they are going to be smitten?!? Sure we can assume all sorts of things if we want to so it's easy to justify what we believe - but the facts are facts whether we believe them or not. Have you ever experienced spiritual warfare? Have you ever been attacked by a demon spirit or group of spirits? Have you ever seen someone possessed by a demon change their appearance before your very eyes? Your sacreligious comment about not being in the habit of telling people they are going to hell makes me sick. Telling someone they are not saved may not be the same grammar structure as that, but the meaning is quite clear. Has the constant defense of your beliefs jaded you so much? I am sorry to attack you in such a personal way. You have such a way of creating the negative image you claim everyone has of you - but it only is formed by the words of your mouth. I hope you consider your words better in the future if you want people to see you as the nice person you can be. I've seen some good in your words before...but they are overshadowed by your conflicted self-image and presuppositions that others are out to get you or things much worse. My prayers are with you. God bless, |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
Documented fact ? You have a lot to learn about the internet. Here's a clue - write a story that is total fiction, publish it on your web space and check if it's still there in a week. Just because it's in print, does not make it true.
quote: It would most certainly be under the aegis of what the Bible speaks about to tell me if Christians are ever possessed by anything. I accept personal experience, IF it's not in contradiction with the Bible. There are people alive who think they are Napoleon, does that make it true ? It's their experience that they are.
quote: Are you asking me to reopen the discussion on tongues ? Everything I believe on that topic is based on scripture, not my own opinion. And that is the point I am making. If I ever say something based solely on my opinion I am very careful to make sure that is clear in my reply. It's Romans that says tongues are a prayer language because we do not know what to pray for. I don't believe I've ever used the phrase 'language of heaven', here or anywhere else.
quote: I'm sorry, but nothing you see, or feel you have experienced can change scripture. Our senses cannot be trusted above our faith, the Bible says that. It's obvious that you believe things that are not in the Bible, and claim that your experience has the same veracity as scripture. Do you think our discussing that will go anywhere positive, or should we drop it ?
quote: How is it sacrelige to tell the truth ? It seems to me that you're getting really worked up here. I am kind of sick of being told that I am jaded, unloving, unfaithful, etc. because I stand by my belief in what the Bible says. However, I hope I don't ever lose it like you are here. The point of my comment was that the only thing I ever seek to tell people is that they can be saved. If that also means by implication telling them that they are not, then so be it. But my desire is never to condemn anyone, they are condemned by the Bible, in that they have not obeyed it, but the point of the Bible is for them to escape that condemnation. Do you think I like to argue ? That I love having a website full of people hate me and attack everything I say ? Why do you think I bother ? There are two reasons I bother, the two people over the years who have realised they were arguing with their own pride and the Bible, and became Christians in part through my witness on sites like this one. |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
The story you are referring to that (the article on that Catholic site I linked to above) is decades old. If you bothered to read it and check out the sources then you'd know that. Apparently you didn't do that which is fine - if you want to dismiss it that way. I'm not worked up. My use of punctuation might indicate that, but it is for emphasis, not tone. The rules of grammar and internet chat are conflicted which makes it hard to carry on a conversation in this manner. In either case, I'm not as naive as you'd like to assume. The issue I brought up has nothing to do with Christians being possessed. I never mentioned that. My question is to the validity of the power of Satan and those who align themselves (knowingly or unknowingly) with him. Now, I don't quite get where you think I believe things that aren't in the Bible. If you think I do then apparently that makes two of us - you and I. I appreciate your comments in relation to my questionable sanity. If my attitude indicates I've "lost it" then so be it. My purpose is to speak the truth and point out error when I see it. I have grown weary of being a peacemaker when it is clear peace is not the objective by the majority. I have decided to be bold and stand for my beliefs as steadfast as you do yours. If that offends you then I apologize, but I won't deny what is right and what is truth for what is not. 2 Timothy 1:7 - For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
quote: ? Err, I'm not sure how this is a sacreligious statement, much less how this makes you sick . . . did I miss something? Are you saying that we should go around telling people to go to hell? |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I did not mean to question your sanity, merely to point out that the fact that people percieve things a certain way does not make them true. I was using an extreme example to illustrate a point. And I read the story, being decades old does not make it true.
quote: See, this is the satanic lie being perpetrated. We are born aligned with Satan, in that we are seperate from God and do what seems right in our eyes. This whole possession idea serves to make people think that lukewarm is OK, because they have not set out to seek darkness, that they are far from it. |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
I finally found my signature - thanks to all of you who helped with this secret quest. "My life is one big misquote." *sigh* |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
OK, now I'm completely and thoughoughly confused . . . Anyways, back to the topic . . . As far as LOTR and Harry Potter go, I'm with rowanseymour. |
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InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
1. Yes, Cobra, we SHOULD tell people they are sinners going to hell because if they don't know that they are sinners going to hell, then they will find no need for Jesus, which is the whole point. 2. If you ask me, I am more conserned with the power of God then the power of Satan, it is God who has the power to destory both my body and soul in hell. Satan does have power though and he is doing everything he can to stop Christians, but realize that Satan's power is only that given by God, God is soveriegn and ultimatly Satan is merely used as a tool of God that his attacks on us are used to refine us. And yes, God causes trials to happen to us, in fact, if you havn't been thrown in the belly of a whale a few times over you won't do a thing for God. IF you're having a nice cushy life then woe to you. ------------------ |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
quote: . . . this is a double-edged sword . . . and this becomes problematic if used incorrectly. Law & Gospel is the message, yes. Unfortunately, things are getting difficult, as the world's view of sin and hell tend to be to shug it off as part of our religion, and the increase of pluralistic views has tended to increase "religion shopping." I see more people going out and trying to find a religion that makes them feel good. Unfortunately, this leads people away from the truth. The truth isn't comfortable. . . . but they DO have to hear it . . . . . . you're making me think. That's a good thing . . . Beware of the difference between telling people you WANT them to go to hell (usually as an expression of anger, as in "GO TO HELL!"), and explaining to them the concepts of heaven and hell so they can find a need for the savior . . . I do agree with you now. [/quote] I don't fool myself - Yes, I am aware that God has ultimate power over Satan, and that God does test us from time to time. [This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited December 29, 2002).] |
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rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
There is not one of us here worthy to say to tell someone they are going to hell. That is judgement, which is reserved for the Lord. Show me one instance of Jesus telling someone they are going to hell. Do you think the sinners followed Him around and invited Him home for dinner because He kept telling them they were going to hell? Don't we want to be the kind of Christians who befriend the sinners and tell them the good news, and leave God to convict them of their sin. Or do we not believe that God will convict them of their sin?
This verse is so often taken to mean "once you've dealed with your own sin - you can get back to judging your brother". But to "remove the speck from your brother's eye" is not to judge him, but to heal him. Too often we Christians have made it our commission to point out the sin's of the sinners. We don't realise that most people (despite what they say) know they are sinners, (did God not give everyone the knowledge of good and evil?) and won't come near a church for fear of being judged. Let's be radical - let's be like Jesus! Let's befriend sinners instead of judging them. Just a thought ------------------ |
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Ascent Member Posts: 64 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
There's actually quite a bit of difference between HP and LOTR if you look at the underlying themes and understand some things about them... For one, HP (as I understand) takes place in today's modern world, just a "magical train ride" from England (I believe) -- implication? If someone could just find the way, they could go to the place, too. LOTR takes place in "Middle Earth" which isn't meant or purported to be the planet we live on, or the time we live in. In HP, magic is something that can be learned, acquired and strengthened by will and study. In LOTR, magic is something that in either innate -- to the Elves, it's just as natural as singing or dancing or walking, and to everyone else, they cannot acquire it or strengthen it. The wizards (Gandalf and Sauroman) are, according to what I understand, more akin to angels (light and dark) that only take the shape of humankind. As someone else mentioned, in LOTR, magic is powerful and dangerous to people who aren't used to it -- case in point, the One Ring. Notice how it tries to corrupt everyone around it, and often succeeds. It's used for selfish purposes, but there are bad consequences when it's invoked, regardless of the reason. I think kids (for example -- they're the vunerable ones) will come away from LOTR maybe thinking, "wow, that was neat, I wish I was an elf" or "I wish I was Gandalf" or "You be that tree guy" -- that's make believe. I think they come away from HP thinking, "if only I could do that, how much easier my life would be! Hey, I wonder what I'll find when I type 'witchcraft' into my favorite search engine?" That's a little extreme, but it's really not -- wiccans have a renewed interest in them and they attribute it directly to the HP books. Also, note the attitudes of the characters... HP is out for self, and any means to an end is fine. Contrast that to Frodo, who doesn't want to accept the weight of having the ring and having to destroy it, but realizes that he's the only one that can, and so he leaves his home (that had been in his family for generations) and his friends and his town and sets his face like flint towards his mission -- knowing that it'll probably cost him his life, but choosing to do so anyway. That's a far cry from self-serving. Which attitude do you want to see grow in your children? There's a pretty good book written from a Christian perspective called Harry Potter and the Bible (which can be found at Amazon, or most bookstores, I guess) that lays things out pretty well. It was written after the 4th HP book, and it gives a synposis of each book in a chapter, and then a chapter contrasting what's there with what God's word says. They really don't make a lot of inferences, and deal with what the book says and does. Here's a quote from an Amazon review that sums it up:
quote: Just my $0.02 Oh, and as someone who spent several years in the occult before I got saved, I can testify that it's very real, and there's definitely a power there. It's a corrupting, deceiving power, but it's not to be feared or quickly dismissed. -Ascent |
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InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
Rowan, yes, befriend people, but Jesus always told people when they where at fault and he told them that they where sinners. And I will tell unbeleivers that they are going to judgement because that's where they ARE going, it's not like "Rot in hell you filthy sinner!" it's more of a warning of where they are going to end up. ------------------ |
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Crptc_Prgrmr Member Posts: 169 From: Registered: 02-05-2002 |
Tolkien is easy, his books are streight-forward, whether they are meant to be allegory or not they end up that way. Tolkien discussed with C.S. Lewis this sort of thing. He said something to the effect that Jesus fulfills all of the stories man can imagine. So short of intentionally rotten plots, there is something to be gained from most non-Christian books, even many myths such as Hercules show certain biblical truths. I have read the Harry Potter books and to me it seems on target for the most part, especially when Voldemort tells Harry there is no good and evil, only power, and those to weak to take it. Yeah, we should make desciples of all nations, but once again that doesn't mean you should not speak out like the prophets when necessary. They were not gentle about the judgement people would face. I never take the term "brood of vipers" gently either. It comes back to the verses in Ecclesiastes 3 (more than just a catchy tune), there is a time for everything. One thing also, is lying always wrong? Consider the midwives in Egypt who told pharoh that the Israelites birthed before they arrived so they could not kill the boys, a lie they new full well. Yet what does it say happened? God rewarded them. Does God reward evil? The Ten Commandments say not to bear false witness, which I would distinguish between lying. I am not saying that it is right to lie your face off, what I think is important is to know that there is a time and a place for Christains to deceive the wicked. When you know that the entity you are dealing with means harm, you have a right and obligation to give them bad information. ------------------ Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine... |
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rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
...I know i's got nothing to do with LOTR or HP, but... I can't find any instance of Jesus telling someone they are a sinner... And the prophets were pronouncing God's judgement - not their own. ------------------ |
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Crptc_Prgrmr Member Posts: 169 From: Registered: 02-05-2002 |
Not in so many words perhaps, but how about the people He told to "go, and sin no more". He is saying that they had sinned. At other times he called certain people fools, not merely foolish, but fools. Yet another time he refered to people as evil (this is from memory so it might be off in specific words but not spirit) "if you though you are evil give good gifts, how much more will your heavenly Father do so?" This gets into the discipline issue, is it loving to let someone go on doing wrong, or to tell them that they are wrong in doing it? I am not God, and I know good and well the sin I have in my life. But I have the Bible, and so while I continue to try and live more like Jesus I have God's Word (just like those prophets) to guide me and to judge others. No not the kind of judge that says "boy are you rotten compared to me" or the standards I claim to love, but the kind of judging that says "Is this right?", "Is this person walking in the truth?" This seems especially important with some pretty high visibility leaders in Christian circles such as Hugh Ross and Pat Robertson doing some pretty screwy teaching (perhaps we can get into that on another post). Consider the passage you brought up. It does not not let us off the hook, saying "take the plank out of your own eye and be on your way", but make sure you do that so you may see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Once again this may be a gentle reminder or a harsh rebuke depending on what is involved. I have talked with some who have said people are basically good (some Christians included), and why should good people go to hell? How should I argue this? I am afraid I did not go after this like I should at the time, but an analogy I've heard is that its easy to look good in a mirror in a dark hallway. I'm not saying I'm really any better than anyone else, though I hope God's work on me shows, but telling other people they are not "basically good" is important, otherwise they will see no need for salvation. I think most people looking deep will see their true nature, but too many build up a protective shell that says "I'm pretty good, at least I haven't killed anyone..." The Bible tells us to tear down any argument that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, so this would be a big one right here. ------------------ Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine... |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
Lord of the Rings in my view is very christian. Tolkien said: "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Christian work." If you want to walk up Tolkiens grave and tell him that he's wrong... be my guest. Yes I know some people say its occultic... But people say almost anything. A lastest fad is saying we are from a some goop. I would say that magic and witchcraft exist. To deny it would be ignorance. If it didn't exist, why would the Bible condemn it? About telling people they are going to hell... That's reality. Later Homies! |
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SLAM Member Posts: 36 From: Miami, FL Registered: 12-29-2002 |
You know what I say? It's a good story. I enjoyed reading it, and watching the movies. It didn't cause me any spiritual uneasiness. End of story. ------------------ What part of that do some people not understand? He who dies with the most frags wins, |
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D3565 Junior Member Posts: 8 From: Registered: 01-11-2003 |
Um...LOTR was written by a Christian people. Look up Tolkein's history. Good friends with C.S. Lewis and he belonged to a Christian professors club. LOTR is a lot of things, one of them being a introduction of the Christian message to non-Christians. | |
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InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
quote:
Comeon people, LoTR is brilliant, stop trying to bash it. ------------------ |
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Whoosh Member Posts: 19 From: FL Registered: 12-31-2002 |
Well, I'm probably in the minority on this subject. I don't think the story is a christian one. I think we should ask ourselves..'Would Jesus enjoy watching this movie?" Gandalf is a good wizard? The Bible clearly states that we are to have I'm not saying Tolkein wasn't a christian, because I don't know him or |
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InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
1. LoTR is no an 1:1 allegory, but it does have some Christian themse 2. The "wizard" gandalf is not occult, he is more angelic, just because he is a 'wizard' doesn't mean he practices sorcery, his power is from God. (Note: that I am refering to the BOOK) Tolkien was a Christian and he used his gifts to bring glory to God via stories, and for anyone to go calling it from Satan is wrong. ------------------ |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
For one, who said Gandalf was even human! I don't think he is. Middle Earth is a fiction world Tolkien used to present points. ArchAngel out. ------------------ |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
quote: With all due respect, I think the point is being lost. Do you think that if Jesus was alive today, he would never watch TV ? I would suggest he'd watch TV way before He listened to most Christian music, and that He'd be a lot less uptight than people who seem to suggest that anything which is not presenting the Gospel is therefore Satanic. I've not seen LOTR because I am not interested, but I am embarrassed to have to explain myself when I tell people I am a Christian, and the first thing that I feel I need to explain is that this does not mean I live my life in fear. |
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SLAM Member Posts: 36 From: Miami, FL Registered: 12-29-2002 |
Ya know, if you think about it, Jesus HAS seen the movie. Do you think anything has been done or made on earth that He doesn't know about better than we do. I think that if you see something in it that disturbs you immediately and in a sudden way, then, yeah, don't watch it (I don't know what that would be). But don't think into it too much. It's not necessary to count the number of stars on the screen on a night seen to see if their sum equals 666, or to see if the rock rolling down the hill makes an "S" shape...no. Go looking for evil or things wrong like that, and you'll end up finding them when they don't exist. Be careful of what you watch, but also be careful that you're not too critical of such things, and deprive yourself of the enjoyment potential. ------------------ What part of that do some people not understand? He who dies with the most frags wins, |
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Krylar Administrator Posts: 502 From: MD, USA Registered: 03-05-2001 |
Hiya, Great topic. I'm now reading LOTR and it's enjoyable. I don't wake up thinking about doing witchcraft or the like, and I certainly would not want to be a hobbit (I'm short enough, thank you). Are we influenced, even subtely, by the things we read, see and hear? Of course we are. The only way around that is to run off into the wilderness, into a cave, and never have touch with civilization again. Now, I'm not saying that we should run out and look at evil stuff just because we can, but I am saying that everything made by man has the propensity for sinful content...because men are sinful beings. However, there is also good in man and therefore good in content. If we block all the potential for evil in this world and the works of others, then we end up blocking all the good as well. There's no way around it. I've read The Hobbit, I've seen both LOTR movies...I've enjoyed them. I've seen Good vs. Evil themes in them all. I've seen sin in them all, and I've seen good in them all. Name something that man alone has written that is completely without sin and I'll be impressed. How can a sinful creature create something that is pure without the aid of One who is without sin? Yet we all listen to the radio, watch TV, read books, etc., so we can't stop at the LOTR, we must go into all of the stories and all of the songs and all of the shows and movies and stop looking at them all. We must leave society and dwell in caves where we WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SHARE THE GOSPEL. "I send you out as sheep among wolves..." Yes, that is true. But in order to be among wolves, you must LIVE among wolves (though our hearts are not). The world is fallen and men are sinners (including you and me), there's no two ways about it. So everything we touch has the propensity of sin. Therefore we must trust God to protect us from the iniquity and lead us to purity, assuming, of course, that we endeavor to keep our eyes on Him. On the subject of telling people that they are going to hell... Paul says "to a Jew I became a Jew, to a Gentile a Gentile...". It seems clear to me from Paul's teachings that we are to build trust with the individual and share the Way with them. The only thing I will accomplish by walking up to people I don't know and saying "you know you're going to hell, right?" (the old 'turn or burn' method), would be to scare them off and make them think that I'm a nutcase. What purpose does this serve? Christ speaks of the parable of the sower and the seed, where the sower scatters the seeds but the seeds either root and grow or choke and die. The sower is not responsible for *making* the seeds root and grow, he is responsible for scattering the seeds. This isn't about SELLING Christianity, it's about GIVING the opportunity for salvation freely and allowing the freedom of choice of the recipient to control its acceptance or denial. I've spoken with so many Christians that feel they must rush into a burning building and carry the people out. I believe that's totally wrong as it averts the freedom of choice component in the equation. Yes, it IS my responsibility to rush into the burning building to help, but only in the respect that I can say, "hey! I can help you get out if you'll go this direction...", but it's completely up to that person to follow that path or not. But here's the problem, most people don't realize that the building they're in is burning. Actually, they are quite comfy in their building. So running in and trying to yank them out of that building, that you and I see as burning, but they see as comfortable, is unlikely at best. Caring for the person first is of utmost importance, in my opinion. Given time (and I say this from experience), people begin to see that your building is a happy dwelling...one that is covered with peace in tough times. They then want to move from their building to yours. This is when they start to ask questions. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't try to hide that I'm in a nicer building then they're currently in, and I make it clear that the building I'm in always has vacancies and it's THE place to live. And I'll happily give them the tour if they want to take a look! But I will not try to scare them in or force them in. To do so starts a foundation that is not built of rock, but of sand. A foundation built of rock is a foundation built with the Lord as the focus, hell-focused foundations are foundations of sand...in my opinion. We are responsible for spreading the GOOD NEWS of salvation, not the BAD NEWS of hell. I'm not in the least saying that the gospel should be watered down to avoid the consequences of sin, but to make hell the focus averts the point. It's not about avoiding hell, it's about being with God. If it's about avoiding hell, then the motivation of the individual is skewed and selfish, and thus not about God. Okay, I've rambled enough :P God bless you all and thank you for these discussions. They certainly do improve my faith! -Krylar ------------------ |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
Good Point Krylar! The Gospel is the Good News, not Bad. Reality is the bad news. And SLAM, good point. The books are Cool, The Movie is cool, LOTR is Cool!
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Dyreck Member Posts: 20 From: Registered: 12-17-2002 |
FYI: Did you guys know that it was Tolken and his christian bubdies who led C. S. Lewis to Christ? Kinda cool huh? | |
Rob Member Posts: 27 From: Alberta - Canada Registered: 08-10-2001 |
I feal very sorry for you people who think that lotr and harry potter are "evil" or any other book falowing the same ideas. they are simply made up storys that people like to hear. people read these books to dream of a more magical and interesting place insted of the bad crap that hapins hear in the real world. Think what you like but dont preach to the rest of the world that its bad let them make there oun choice. Personly i dont beleav in the devil or god i think we are just another creatcher on this earth that has serpast the rest. and that evil is tout to us buy others its just human natcher im afrade. | |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
HI Rob. I agree with you that there is no harm in books like LOTR. I recently discovered Dune, which has an extensive religion at it's core, but my enjoyment of the story does not affect my relationship with God. Might I also suggest to you that if you believe in God or not does not change His existence ? I can see why you'd choose not to believe in God, based on what you see in the world of people to whom Christianity means being scared of a book or a movie, but Bible Christianity is about God doing real things in your life, things that prove He is real. I'd suggest to you that you owe it to yourself to let God prove that He is real, despite the religions of the world. |
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Krylar Administrator Posts: 502 From: MD, USA Registered: 03-05-2001 |
quote: Well said! -Krylar ------------------ |
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Whoosh Member Posts: 19 From: FL Registered: 12-31-2002 |
In Response to Christian's last post: There have been many points made that I agree with and some that I don't. In response to Christian's post I would like to express my agreement. I believe religion is a man made thing. However, the context and wording of his comment suggests that because I choose not to watch a movie or listen to a song that I'm "scared" of it. Its not about being scared, its about choosing what I let influence me. Everything you see, hear, or do DOES affect you. I'm not afraid of matches, but if I start playing them the possibility exists that I will burn myself. Maybe you can read a book that encourages witchcraft and not be influenced to start practicing it, but the more books you read the more you open yourself up to it's influences. By reading the first one and thinking you weren't influenced you just became influenced to read a second one. It doesn't mean you will, but you are influenced. The point is to keep your focus on Jesus and not allow yourself to get distracted. A hard thing to do in this world, unfortunately.
Its seems like the only thing anyone got from my post was "This movie is 1. I'm probably in the minority on this.. 2. I don't think this story is a christian one. 3. What followed was a few lines why I didn't think it was a christian 4. What I thought of Gandalf. 6. A comment about not knowing Tolkein's heart. 7. I have judged a movie.
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
Um.... My comment was meant to be general. The news is full of 'christian' schools banning pupils from reading Harry Potter, etc., and it just makes a mockery of the power of God, and makes us all look silly to the world. So while it's my opinion that thinking that you'll be affected by reading a book that you know is fiction is a fearful attitude and one that does not give God credit, it was not my intention to single you out. I presumed the poster I replied to was not just responding to your comments in isolation, and neither was I.
quote: The word translated 'witchcraft' in the NT means to take drugs. Apart from taking drugs and thinking there are magical things happening around you, witchcraft in the sense portrayed in 'Harry Potter' is simply a pile of fictitious waffle. It does not happen. |
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BluePaladin Member Posts: 110 From: Tennessee, USA Registered: 12-27-2002 |
Personally, I think we need more outwardly CHRISTIAN movies that people make this big a fuss over. One day  .I think the basic message is: Some are ok with the movie, some are not. Do as you choose. As long as you feel you are being faithful to God in your choice. I like LOTR and have read it. It's not a stumbling block for me. i.e. A glass of wine. Wine has alcohol, but I have a glass every now and then. I'm not a lush, and it doesn't affect my walk at all, but a recovering alcoholic who's gotten his life right with God may stumble because of that glass of wine. Wine is not evil, it's the result it causes for YOU and what your intentions are when you drink it. If you feel like LOTR affects your walk, do not, by an means support it or see it. I for one, don't have a problem with LOTR, or wine. Peace ------------------ [This message has been edited by BluePaladin (edited January 21, 2003).] |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
whoosh
quote: I think if you read the dialogs in tolkeins LOTR, and even if you didn't know he was christian... It would be awefully hard NOT to tell that he was a christian.. However the same can't be said about the movies, as many of the nuances and details that really reflect the christian worldview have been left out, however there are still some gems... HOWEVER the worldview of Harry Potter is completely different, which blurs good and evil, and encourages the use of power to be manipulated for one's own purposes... contrary to what christian says, witchcraft is in essense Manipulation - tied closely with the spirit of Jezebel. Christian.. the use or the administering of drugs are the possible meanings.. However if you research the word Pharmakeia, it is MOSTLY to do with ancient greek witchcraft, as below Another form Pharmakeia of witchcraft practised by the ancients was Necromancy which focused on the summoning up of Phasma (Ghosts) from the underworld. Karl ------------------ |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I don't see any record in the Bible that the Deomon God of Sleep exists, nor do I believe in 'ghosts of the underworld'. I'm interested to know what sources you have in terms of the meaning of the word, I thought from memory that Strongs essentially just said 'drugs', or mayby I presumed the meaning of 'witchcraft' to be an extended meaning, in that witches where just women who lived in the forest and took drugs. |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
no the bible doesn't talk about those particuar demons or whatever else, this is greek language and a greek word and i was giving the context of that word , that is all.. of course whatever a pagan makes as a god, a demon will happily take up the role. but anyway this is the picture that would have been conjured up in the greek speaking galatia when they heard this word in that scripture. and strongs i pasted in the strongs definitions.. which included scorcery.. and some scriptures that talk about such witchcrafty sort of fobbiden activity.. duet 18:10 2 kings 9:22 2 cron 33:6 micah 5:12 nahum 3:4 and harry potter is full of these things... though of course many christians are quite hypocritical, just jumping on the beat up harry potter and scared of harry potter bandwagon because of all the hype and talk of it, while letting themselves and their kids watch even more horrible or evil t.v shows or movies without thinking twice.. however there is truth, thought there is much worse than harry potter out there, harry potter worldview is so removed from the chrsitian worldview, and the danger is how popular and prevalent it is... people say it doesn't affect people's lives, its only t.v but i think to the contrary... if you study movies and culture over the last 50 years, and how mindsets, believes have evolved, it will give you the chills to see the correlation.. and even on the personal side... the other week.. we were at the shopping center, and my mate left the keys in the car, and looked the door, but the sunwindow was open so i stuck my arm in, and desperately tried to reach the lock, to no avail, and this lady and her two kids came up to us, and like offered to cast a spell for my arm to grow longer - in all seriousness... me and my friend were like "no spells"
[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited January 21, 2003).] [This message has been edited by klumsy (edited January 21, 2003).] |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
quote: I agree - I think Neighbours is FAR more insidious than Harry Potter. I can't get over the woman offering you an arm spell. I don't know if I would have been able to stop myself from laughing. I hope so, but that is just too dumb. If God says we cannot add to our stature, then surely we also cannot increase the length of our arms. Thanks for the references, I'll have a look at them. At first glance, there is nothing there to convince me the spells DID anything except make people believe in another God, but I don't remember who the 'witch of Endor' is, I will check it out. |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
1st samuel 28 thats where the encounter of saul and this witch lady is... From the bible, and from my own experiences and others, I believe that the devil and demons do have power, as he goes around devouring and destroying.. so i am not scared of them Karl ------------------ |
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Whoosh Member Posts: 19 From: FL Registered: 12-31-2002 |
I second what Klumsy said |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
So far, I'm with klumsy in this topic. | |
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rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
"Children sold 'Harry Potter' ecstasy pills" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2684937.stm Just thought that was topical since we've been discussing Harry Potter, and the link between sorcery and drugs. ------------------ |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
Goodness me, why am I not surprised. Of course, this is just marketing at it's most evil, it could as easily be Barney on the pills. |
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Dyreck Member Posts: 20 From: Registered: 12-17-2002 |
One thing I've found very incouraging in LOTR is the relationship of Sam and Frodo. Frodo would never have been able to caried the Ring all the way. I've had my share of tough times and was blessed to be given a "Sam" on my tough journey. What's realy cool also was that despite how small and weak the hobits were they were the only one's who could accomplish the quest not so much of their chance of going unoticed but becuase of their great character and "hobit sense" that kept them on the sraight and narrow path as much as possible. We Christians are also to try to build our character as much as possible and to see times of adversity as opportunities as times to grow in character. The book of Job makes this very clear. Till next time. Dyreck |
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silicon_chippy Member Posts: 208 From: Scotland Registered: 10-26-2002 |
I have read part of the Harry Potter saga and part of lord of the rings. Both are exceptionally well written. I have also let my children(along with myself) watch the films. People, and particularly children are not stupid. They realise it is fiction and made up. A good film or book is a great way to escape from everyday life just for a couple of hours. It beats drugs or alcohol. The cronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis are also an imaginary work with witches and talking lions etc.But you don't hear of people saying NO DON'T READ THAT. WHY???? Because he also wrote many good books for Christians????? Because "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe" held within it the story of Jesus for children????? I don't know ------------------ |
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silicon_chippy Member Posts: 208 From: Scotland Registered: 10-26-2002 |
The cronicles of Narnia should have read chronicles ------------------ |
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rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
Wicca, the particular brand of witchcraft that J.K.Rowlings studied for writing Harry Potter, is apparently the fastest growing religion in America. Why do we think this is ? It seems to me that because witchcraft has seemingly ceased to be real, it has also seemingly ceased to be wrong. Witchcraft is VERY real to the thousands of Wiccans in the world who are being encouraged to get "spirit guides" and taught that there is no difference between good and evil. I think Christians need to wake up. Should we rely on society to always feed us what is good? A society which considers itself sufficiently sophisticated to throw away the rules of right and wrong. Look at the way society's attitude to sex on TV has changed in the last 50 years, or have we become so numb we can't see how explicit its become? How often do new shows come out that boast of pushing the limits? What we consider pornographic now will be the norm in a few decades. How long before we get nude billboards like in France? How long before we get pornographic stuff on kids TV? If you think that's ridiculous - consider how someone in the 1950s would react if they saw MTV today. This generation is on a high - it thinks its liberating itself - and it's easy for Christians to get caught up in it. Christians can boast to their non-believing friends how open-minded they are - how they TOO are sophisticated enough not to be affected by what they read and watch on TV. The Devil must be laughing. Don't be seduced by evil just because it looks nice, is well written or sounds good, but seek a life of purity in Jesus Christ. We have no need to be afraid, but we need to realise there is a war going on. Lets get better at being in the world and not of it. God Bless ------------------ |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
quote: Rowan, are you sitting down ? :-) I agree totally with this. I hear people in church from time to time saying how they seek to show their non-believing friends they are normal ( by which they mean able to have a joke, etc. ) and I think that works to a point. But lets not forget to make sure we're not working so hard at that that we forget that we're supposed to be showing that we're NOT like everyone else. I went to many churches prior to being saved, and I'll never forget the one who prayed with me to 'give my heart to Jesus' ( which never occurs in the Bible ), and then told me it didn't matter if I felt the same afterward. We're not meant to be the same, we're meant to put on the mind of Christ. We're meant to be unspotted by the world, and I think that's harder now than in Roman times where they fed you to the lions. At least you were dead in Christ, in this life, the voices of 'reason' try to make good evil, and evil good, and we need to be vigilant in rejecting this lie, because the Devil's strongest power continues to be the ability to tell us a lie until we believe it, and we can then be drawn away by our own lusts and enticed back into the world. The definition of sin is something that looks great until you've tried it, and found that it's rotten to the core. |
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c h i e f y Member Posts: 415 From: Surrey, United Kingdom Registered: 03-07-2002 |
quote: The occult is very real TallBill ? How so ? I totally agree with your above comments on Tolkien though and rijel m8, did you think your simple question would go nova like that ? WHAT A THREAD ! ------------------ |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
It's official. Harry Potter is chock full o' Christian goodness*:
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It seems you've made a slip in train of thought - I'm not following you . . .
