|
nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Dear Christian, I want to publicly offer an apology to you for my treatment of you here at CCN. Although we do have different beliefs over some issues of Christianity, we do agree on the fundamental point that true eternal life can only come from making Jehovah God the Lord of our life. While that is very basic and does not encompass everything that it means to be a Christian, it is still enough for me to say what I am saying in this letter to you. In sincere love, peace, and friendship, |
|||
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I'm at a bit of a loss, because I don't particularly remember you saying anything against me over much. I know that I too have really thought about how I approach these forums, not least because I know the Gospel of Jesus Christ as I see it is often unpopular, but that the flip side is perhaps I can take for granted that people will take badly what I say, which would perhaps make me forget to stop and think about the Christ-likeness of how I approach posting also. Naturally I completely accept your apology, after all, self correction is a vital part of the Gospel, through the communion, and through confessing our faults to one another. Jesus said that he who is without sin should cast the first stone, and that sure isn't me. I certainly hope you decide to remain a member of this community, but either way I thank you for having the guts and the grace to publically apologise to me as you have. |
|||
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
yeah. Same here. If I said anything or will say anything, or am saying anything, I'm sorry, man. Just wanna be homies talking over stuff, coming closer to the Truth. And other stuff too. This applies to all who are here. ------------------ |
|||
CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
I'm with ArchAngel. ------------------ |
|||
rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
Hey Christian You've had enough apologies from me :P But apologies keep us humble, so sorry bro. Wouldn't it be great if we could all meet up and go out for drinks (beer or orange juice, whatever's your cup ot tea), and get to know each other. Wouldn't we treat each other differently if we were talking face to face. Instead of seeing each other just as theologies to be affirmed or argued against, we'd see each other as brothers in Christ. I'm glad we've had a chance to exchange some emails and try to understand each other better. However that doesn't change the fact that I totally disagree with you of some very important points. I thinks some of your beliefs are unchristian and very dangerous. This site is not RCI-Coders, so I believe we are obliged for the sake of those who are weak in faith, to respond to your claims, with Christian doctrine as we understand it. With all due respect, I see you as a victim, but sometimes we have to act for the greater good. If that sounds patronising, please try to look at it from my point of view. I am sure it sounds pretty shallow to say "I do love you as a brother" after what I've just said, but it's true. I have tried and tried to act as Jesus would in this situation, but the Lord knows I've usually made a mess and posted out of anger. But I have tried. I've now come to realise that Jesus is the only answer to all this (I know that sounds corny or at least blatently obvious). Jesus has been sorely overlooked in all our debates. For a Christian site, we spend very little time talking about Jesus. The common factor in almost every biblical cult on the planet, is a diminished Jesus. Many of them say Jesus is just a man, some just take the power away from the cross. Yours says the Jesus' blood isn't sufficient. Its the grace of God and the love demonstrated in Jesus nailed to a cross that changes people's hearts. It's Jesus who binds up broken hearts. Not theological arguments, not even speaking in tongues or propechies. You make fun of the idea of giving your heart to Jesus. Don't you know you're making fun of people's salvation. Don't you know that Jesus wants your heart, your longings, your desires, your dreams, your life itself. People that God has washed in the precious blood of Jesus, you condemn. Our message to the world would be much clearer if we were united in bringing people to the cross, instead of trying to unload our own personal theologies on every unbeliever who comes searching for answers. Please don't respond with a line by line rebuke as you often do. Please just take some time to consider that there might be some truth in what I've said. Please at the very least accept my motives as true. Its all about Jesus. Without Him we're just a bunch of geeks Grace and Peace Rowan [This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited April 29, 2003).] |
|||
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
quote: I tend to agree, these forums seem to engender argument more than anything, because they are faceless. It's also hard to talk to people about Jesus, because they have no way of knowing if our lives live up to what we talk about.
quote: Me too - what happened to that ?
quote: Well, to be honest, I feel the same about you. I believe the doctrine that is commonly presented here promotes a churchianity devoid of God's power and salvation, a satanic lie. How better to keep people from Jesus than to convince them that they know Him through tricks of emotion ?
quote: But of course. And the flip side is that when someone is interested in knowing Jesus, all I can do is present what the Bible says, and coincidentally, what I have proven true in my own life.
quote: In the end, His sheep hear His voice, and we will all stand or fall before Him. I'd rather you stand, but you need to do what you feel is right. I admit to always being amused at my victim status, seeing as I appear to be a victim of salvation, something I did not achieve prior to recieving the Holy Spirit.
quote: What more can we do, but try. Self correction, and therefore mistakes along the way, are an integral part of how the church is set up. God knew we would not always get it right.
quote: With all due respect, who have you been emailing ? I have never said any such thing, nor would I be so rude as to claim that you believe that Jesus blood was a waste of time, although in essence that is one way to look at what you do say, that the Spirit Jesus said He was going to die to send us is not needed for salvation. At what point do you believe I decided Jesus' blood was insufficient ?
quote: I agree. One thing I regret as the church throws the evidence of the Spirit out the window and follows lies, is that in defending the Gospel I sometimes give the impression that I think tongues is salvation. That's not true. Tongues is the EVIDENCE of salvation, it's not salvation. It's merely a tool that will pass away. God's love is the eternal thing.
quote: Actually what I do is recount my experience and point out that the phrase and the idea of giving your heart to Jesus is not in the Bible. Indeed, it's literally unscriptural. God does not want us to give Him our heart, it's wicked and deceitful. He wants to give us a new one. How can a phrase that does not occur in the Bible, which descibes a process that never occurs in the Bible, be Biblical ?
quote: I can neither save nor condemn. All I do is point out what the Bible says. If I am wrong, my blessing/condemnation means nothing. The Bible equally condemns those who call evil good, as well as those who call good evil. Perhaps I am the only here being at all circumspect about who I call a Christian, and seeing as no-one has ever presented me with a logical case for how Acts 8 fits into the idea of belief = salvation, I feel pretty secure on that front right about now.
quote: The message of Christ is utterly lost if we water it down to the point of saying 'Jesus is a nice guy' to people, and nothing more for fear of argument. Jesus was not like that, He was keen to make things clear, no matter who He offended. I am not Christ, and I need to be more careful than He was, but we all also need to present the Gospel as we see it, and expect His sheep to hear His voice. Put yourself in my shoes. I 'gave my heart to Jesus' completely and sincerely many times in a 2 year period. I tried to believe I was saved, but I could not change my life, I could not overcome the effects of a loveless childhood on my self esteem, or stop drinking. Was I whole hearted towards God ? Only He can judge, but certainly I was as much so then as I am now and have been inbetween, perhaps more so, having now found comfort in Christ and before seeking desperately for that I did not have. In contrast to all that struggle, and all that doctrine that seemed never to quite gel with the Bible, I recieved the Spirit, spoke in tongues, and my life was INSTANTLY transformed. Years of reading the Bible has made me see how clear this experience is presented in the Bible, and how absent from the Bible all the things I heard before are ( giving your heart to Jesus, being slain in the Spirit, etc. ). So you'd have me to 'play the game' and support the preaching of a powerless Gospel that MAY lead to Christ because salvation is presented as an optional extra in some cases, and in others kept a secret ( the church I went to prior to being saved, when they heard I spoke in tongues told me they all had this gift and would have prayed with me for it had I asked, but did not talk about it for fear of creating division. They told me tongues are good outside RCI, but RCI has 'evil tongues'. ) Think for a moment, if you were on a 'christian' board full of Jehovah's Witnesses, would you tell people salvation comes in calling God 'Jehovah' for the sake of a show of false unity ?
quote: I hope I have not responded simply to rebuke, but to ask you to think about what you're asking of me, and what you're accusing me of. I like to respond line by line because it makes the posts logical to read, it means you can see what comment I respond to at any point. I forgot that you don't like it this way, sorry.
quote: I did read this before replying, I just forgot that by 'line by line rebuke' you probably meant the sort of broken line response I like to make ( and so do most people in my experience ). I have never considered your motives to be anything less than pure, nor anyone else here. You seem to forget that I've been in your position ( literally, the person who told me about the Holy Spirit, I argued from the Bible for 6 months ( and usually won, she didn't know the Bible that well ) ) So I know what it is to think myself saved through a sinners prayer, and what it is to argue against the idea that all Christians speak in tongues. Rachael never even considered to point out that if not all Christians speak in tongues, 1 Cor 12 says they don't all have faith, so it was an easy win, and hollow, because I could see she had something I did not.
quote: You're right, of course. The real problem is probably that we can't talk face to face, that would make it easier to know each other better and do more than focus on our differences. but you have to admit they are considerable, and amount to either some here not being saved, or me preaching a false Gospel and probably being on shaky ground myself. That's why it's so important to look at the Bible and get things right, which is what I really seek to do in these discussions. People say I think I am always right, that is not true. I always think that what I say is right, but I am always keen to be shown from the Bible if I am wrong. The fact that no-one has presented a convincing case from scripture, or that most people don't even answer my questions, is hardly my fault. This post has probably rambled a little, for which I am sorry. I do agree with a lot of the sentiment that you're putting across, I think perhaps the JW example may allow you to put yourself into a frame of mind to think about what it's like for me to participate here, to try and get along with people without betraying the Gospel of Jesus Christ, my saviour. |
|||
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
the usual problem with the 'giving your heart to jesus', is not he lack of the evidence of tounges.. But rather the gospel that was presented prior , often the person doesn't even start to understand the sacrifice Jesus made, or actually the severity of their sin and their need for a saviour , sometimes they are just wanting something fresh, an emotional fix, many aren't wanting to count the cost as Jesus said in following him, many aren't willing to make in Lord - in the sense of you obey a Lord.. Often the sinners prayer is just words spoken, the contents are not even understood - just like how many people use the Lord prayer - powerful content - but rotely turned to nothing.. and the big thing, is there is often No true repentance.. Its 'lets try this Jesus thing, and see if its better than dope, or relationships'.. However there have been many people who have become real christians (and also at that time speak in tounges ).. after saying the sinners prayer, having understood the gospel and having true repentance. offer themselves as a living sacrifice, making Christ the Lord of their life.. even using the erronoues term of 'giving our heart to Jesus'... Sure we should refine our terms to be more careful - that is part lack of solid doctrine, but part also the nature of language.. OFten as cchristians, and also as denominations, we can get unbalanced - unbalanced in our doctrine (or maybe right on in the wording of our doctrine, but unbalanced in its practice). Sometimes this inbalance can be corrected easily, or is rather benign, but sometimes it is like a cancer Most denominations and many of RCI doctrines were created because of seeing an imbalance in the church.. However many times the new denomination or doctrine, goes beyond the biblical aspect, and becomes the most important thing.. and can result in an unhealthy christinity far worse that the original issue they were trying to overcome or correct.. Like in a diet.. maybe we notice that all the church is eating only carbs, but no protien, so we start saying - you need protien, but some go so far as to say - actually protein is the most important thing.. actually protien is the only thing you should eat..
http://www.livingwaters.com/listenwatch/KirkHBKS.mp3 and also http://www.livingwaters.com/listenwatch/TrueFalse.mp3 about true and false conversion..
[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited April 29, 2003).] |
|||
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I'll attempt to listen to these at home, but an initial comment: the sinners prayer does not occur in the Bible, but that does not mean that someone cannot become a Christian, speaking in tongues, through saying it. The point is that the presence of a process not mentioned in the Bible does not prove salvation, not that God will refuse to save anyone who says a sinners prayer.
quote: I think making people understand the severity of their sin is a crock. That's not what repentance means, wallowing in sorrow. It means being willing to turn around and sin no more. That's what Jesus said, not stop and think about how much you sinned, not look back, but look forward and recognise your need for a saviour and the fact that He's there waiting. Perhaps I misunderstand your meaning, but I've talked to people as a potential convert, and all they wanted to do was tell me how bad and evil I was. But I see we agree, the basic problem with the doctrine of 'believe and be saved' is that it does not remotely address what it is we should believe. |
|||
|
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
quote: I do not mean wallowing in sorry. I do not mean self beating up.. But i mean an honest understanding about our sins, and how far we fall short of the Glory of God.. before you can repent, you need to know your need to repent, then you can learn the truth, and do the 180 degree turn and sin no more..
quote: No i don't believe that is the problem of the doctrine of 'salvation by faith through believing in Jesus' , but more a problem with people, with a laodician church, with bible illiteracy in much of the modern church.. ------------------ |
|||
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I did not mean that you agreed with me overall, just that a lot of people talk about believing in Jesus and don't talk about what it is we should believe. As to the repent thing, if someone hears that God is offering eternal life, and they want that more than anything, and want to do things God's way, at the expense of their own ideas, is that repentance ? |
|||
|
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
quote: as you say they are going to do things God's way, then it would definately include repentance.. ------------------ |
|||
|
rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
quote: You've never really explained that, yet it seems to be your rock at the minute. Lets sort this out once and for all (how many times have we said that 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
If I give you a banana, does that imply you didn't have any to start off with?
If you are correct, and faith cannot be given (which contradicts the above scripture), and this is in the context of a single meeting, you're still stuck with the ridiculous conclusion that only some people have faith during a single meeting.
Notice Paul doesn't say "Do all have faith?", because all Christians by definition, have some measure of faith. |
|||
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
quote: The faith thing is the least of your troubles, Acts 8 is far more of an issue. But the Bible says God has given every man the measure of faith. Even Jude does not say we get more faith, we build ourselves in THE faith, assuming we can pray in the Spirit.
quote: No, the list of gifts in the first part equates to a list of things we all HAVE although it speaks in terms of using them, the second half speaks of which ones we USE in a meeting, by building the body analogy, and in that context asks DO all speak in tongues, as opposed to CAN all speak in tongues. 1 Cor 14:31 is the killer for you, because the answer to the question CAN all prophecy is a resounding yes, which simply cannot be argued with from the Bible. 1 Cor 14:26 is open to some interpretation, there are three ways to read it, one of which agrees with you. But 1 Cor 14:31 is simple, precise and clear. So if we can all prophecy, where does that leave the way you interpret 1 Cor 12 re: tongues ? [This message has been edited by christian (edited April 29, 2003).] |
|||
|
nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
I am somewhat aggravated that this thread has turned into yet another "discussion" on salvation and tongues. I posted my public apology in the hope that there would be some serious self-examination by everyone here and give a second thought...even 70 times 7 thoughts...on posting comments that undoubtedly will incite arguing over issues that really do not matter in the grand scheme of things. I know it is hard to hold your own tongue and not give in to the desire to respond with words that may have good intentions but do not come from the Spirit of God. I would consider that when you feel the urge to debate an issue that is unclear in Scripture - that is an issue that is an open argument and has been so for tens or even thousands of years by scholars and laymen alike - that you ignore the matter completely and give it over to God for Him to handle in His own way. It's better to pray for one another than argue with one another. I'm not trying to sound like Ghandi or anything, just being honest. I know I'm in need of prayer daily...who here isn't? If someone posts words that seem to demand rebuke or correction, then handle it in a matter that both exhibits self-control, self-restraint, and self-respect. By doing that you will also show humility, wisdom, meekness, and love and perhaps even a glimpse of Christ inside you. Imagine that...wouldn't that be just what a Christian is like?  There is far more to being a Christian than speaking in tongues, or prophecy, or any of the other gifts. I would rather lose all gifts if they were preventing me from being an effective Christian to others in straightforward speech and behavior, and if they were only inciting of hate and anger toward God. What's that verse about contention? God bless, |
|||
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I can't say that I disagree - the discussion seems to have blown up from a comment I made in passing and I doubt it will resolve issues that MUST be clear in the Bible yet never seem clear here. I was more keen to explore for a moment why it is that just as others feel compelled to oppose what I say, I feel equally compelled to say it. |
|||
|
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
Christian, i just stumbled accross some articles you wrote on codeproject.com.. and thought Hey that name is familar and its you.. Hey i've never seen a picture of you before either!! (even if its a picture of looking up your nose  but may i went to your profile and it says you've posted 13,610 messages on codeproject.com alone!!!! man that is a legend!!! How do you have time for anything else ? Karl. ------------------ |
|||
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
LOL - ironically, I've not posted to CP for a little while. I used to post up to 100 a day, just through getting to know people and ( funny enough ) big threads of religious controversy from time to time. I haven't written for them for ages either, I tend to try and write for Windows Developer Mag nowadays, although after this month I have nothing up my sleeve for them either. Just call me a serial geek, I can't help myself at times. As I play with J2EE nowadays, I've got nothing much to say at CP except to answer C++ questions, and it's actually this forum that takes up the time I used to spend doing that..... | |||
|
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
matt: i'll talk to you one on one about my reasons to replying in this thread.. though i seperated myself from agreeing with the tounges , i tried to side issue and make understood percieved common ground between me and Christian. B.T.W your matt@nullgames.com email which you had sent me an email from bounched when i tried to email you.. Do you have time to be on ICQ in the next few days?
quote: Only God knows the heart of man, and the heart of man is deceitful above all things - yet It was something i prayed about, and awaited upon the Lord before responding..
quote: matt and christian, and this is the issue, when we put aside all our iterlectual or selfrigthoues pride there is still this issue.. However we all know how the reaons i disagree with Christian, and what He believes and what i believe. So we won't go there.. But as it is a salvation issue, and thus cannot just be ignored.. Though we can apoligise for the lack of love, for Judging , the manner in which we treat each other, we can not apologise for disagreeing on salvation.. If say i had a discussion about I respect this about Christian, He is standing up for what he believes.. If I also believed that if a person didn't speak in tounges they don't have the evidence of salvation and thus don't have salvation.. I would act the same way (maybe not in the same manner).. But it would be important , because if i was quite then i am just letting sincere people who think they are christian go to hell. It would be my responsibility to share the full gospel. I understand where he is coming from , However i believe that he has gotten the salvation issue wrong, even though he understands so well - better than many other christians , the essence of the gospel and salvation, but I cannot accept the addon.. And in the same manner that he is compelled to speak, we are also. Because it is a salvation issue. Because to accept this doctrine , minimised the cross and Jesus sacrifice (because salvation does not come till acts 2, while Salvation came on the cross), and it can cause real christians, who have other gifts of the Holy Spirit, who have the fruit of the Spirit, and have a relationship with Christ, to be led astray and doubt their salvation.. It keeps people from Christ.. So we are both compelled not because of 'tounges' in essence, but because its a salvation issue. It would be better for me to agree with catholics on purgatory, on praying to saints and to mary, better for me to agree with SDA about following the jewish dietry laws, better for me to agree with JW, and mormons on many things, that even though are wrong are not salvation issues that it would be to say "ok .. I will agree - just to keep the peace" And if i were in Christians shoes, it would be the same.. He doesn't want to water down the gospel etc, as it is often done. He doesn't want to give people false hope in a gospel that isn't the full gospel.. and in my post I was trying to say - yes i agree with many of the reasons for RCI doctrine, but not with the one 'excess' that takes it over the top, and outside of biblical truth. one thing that neither me nor christian can accept, is that the bible is vague on salvation.. the truth of salvation is absolute, whether it happens to be what I or him say, or something different. lets look at matt 12: Many christians look at tounges wrongly and say that it is not of God - not of the Holy spirit, that it is even demonic.. In the same way, There are saved christians who don't speak in tounges, they have the Holy Spirit in them, they have the fruit of the spirit in their lives, and use the Gifts of the Spirit in ministering.. However RCI will write them off an non-christians because they don't 'have the manifestation' of speaking in tounges. This can be just as dangerous, beause you are denying the Holy SPirit, saying that something that is Him, is not of Him.. There is no point in argueing these things over and over as we have done in the past.. My posts weren't to do that.. i think we had agreed to disagree (christian and I) knowing that at least we both are saved Love, Karl ------------------ |
|||
Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
Eh I just wanted to add that if I offended anyone... GOOD! Im not hear to stroke anyones ego (I dobt any of us agrees on everything). If I said anything that botherd you, you should take it up with me in an e-mail (dang im not perfect, im working on it k). Love you crazy people |
|||
|
Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
quote: Yes, precisely.
quote: I agree with this as well. The point is for me personally that I still need to strive to present myself in a way that shows the love of Christ, even if most people won't see it, because they only see the judgement of Christ and assume it is my own judgement.
quote: Yes, that is the exact point I was wanting to raise in my reply, not to rehash old arguments.
quote: Must... not.... respond..... :-) I actually did reply, but I decided to delete it to keep this thread intact. I wouldn't mind a new thread to discuss if the need for the Holy Spirit minimises the work of the cross or not. I obviously disagree, when Jesus spoke of the need for the Spirit, when Paul says without the Spirit we are not Christ's, there's no dichotomy. How can there be ? Jesus' death and resurrection had to occur BECAUSE otherwise the Spirit could not come. Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. As you say, the problem is that it's a salvation issue, and that's why it will keep coming up, and whenever I have a chance to point out what the Bible says, I will probably take it. To do otherwise would be to deny my Lord. And I know from having argued the other side of the coin that from your POV you need to argue against a doctrine that excludes people who are saved. I would have thought all of that was self evident. I count myself lucky to have experienced both sides of the coin, to have tried all things and have the chance to hold on to what is good. |
|||
|
nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Karl: I will contact you as soon as I can. I understand your comments and your intentions, as I also understand Rowan's and Christian's. **************************************** I think several points are being missed in the anguished attempt at clarifying and justifying why one of you believes this and another of you believes that. I certainly agree that anything short of the full gospel truth is not truth and not the gospel. The understanding of people who have been believers for decades is only naturally/supernaturally more advanced in the principles of Christian living than the understanding of someone who does not believe or has only believed recently. That does not make anyone better than another. None of us, no matter how long we have been a Christian or have studied Scripture, can ever reach the point of total saturation in the understanding of the person, power, and proof of God in our life on this earth. None of us, no matter what we believe or why we believe what we believe, can ever justify our limited understanding of the person, power, and proof of God as the measure above all others of being a disciple of Jesus Christ. None of us, no matter what evidence we have in our own spiritual journey of being in true fellowship with God, and no matter how exact we are in our obedience to the teachings of Jesus Christ, can ever be perfect spiritually and perfect humanly on this earth. We are all humanly imperfect. We are all spiritually imperfect. The only perfection of ourself (heart, mind, body and soul) will occur when we, as believers and disciples of Christ, enter the Kingdom of Heaven and leave this earth behind. The only way to Heaven is to acknowledge that: These actions encompass everything from repentance to salvation to discipleship. That is pure Christianity. That is what I want to have, want to live, want to see. I don't care about anything else, because nothing else matters more than eternity. So if you want to argue about something that really only matters to the one you serve, go ahead. If you have enough time to argue about something other than being diligent in reaching those who need to know about the one you serve, go ahead. If your philosophy on Christianity makes you respond to someone's comments because you have to defend the one you serve, go ahead. One day, you will spend eternity with the one you serve. I'll be with Jesus Christ. I hope to see you too. If you want to discuss anything more with me, please email me. God bless, |
|||
|
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
very good post matt i agree wholeheartedly with you.. b.t.w did you get a change to listen to the mp3 sermons i linked to? God Bless.. ------------------ |
).