ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
This little debate has ran in my head. Predestination vs. Freewill. The Bible says that God predestined everything. Also, God is omnipotent, controlling everything. He's also omniscient. How can we have absolute freewill when he knows what we will choose. But, if we don't have freewill, how can we be held responsible for what we did? And we are held responsible. This little Paradox really bothers me. Well, actually, just sorta bothers me. ------------------ |
rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
Heyo Where does the Bible say God predestined everything? I am familiar with Acts 17:26, but I don't believe that amounts to predestination. CS Lewis said some wise things about this I think. That God may be omnipotent, but non-sense is still non-sense to God, so there are limits to what God can do. My understanding of God's omnipotence (and I feel ridiculous talking about it like that because God is God and my understanding counts for very little), is that God's will for the future being done is not predestination, but a testament to the fact that God has the power and means to carry out his will regardless of what happens in the future. Regardless of the free choices we make. Predestination is a dangerous belief because it tries to take away the consequences of sin. I know Hindu's have had problems with people commiting murders and claiming predestination. Grace and Peace |
CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
IMHO, knowing the future is not the same as controlling it. IMHO, God can control everything, but only if he wants to. |
GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
Starting stopwatch... lets see how long it takes for Brenton to show up.  |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Predestination does not eliminate free-will; likewise, free-will does not eliminate predestination. The best way I can relate the concept of both is like this: God sent Christ to save all mankind. All mankind is predestined to be a child of God. However, all mankind has the free-will not to become a child of God. Salvation is a gift of God; He gave it to us whether we accept it or not. Another analogy: Consider a present that you give a child. Some will take it and enjoy it for all their life. Others will take it and slowly lose interest in it, and eventually forget about it. Yet others will accept it for a short time, but soon neglect it completely once you're gone. And some will refuse it altogether because they just don't know you. Hope that makes sense. God bless, |
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InsanePoet02 Member Posts: 15 From: Registered: 03-12-2003 |
quote: I saw this before, didn't have time to resond. Ok, what I beleive predestination is that God has chosen his people to whom he will reveal Himself to. I DO NOT beleive that every event of all time are predestined. We are still resonsible for our sin. |
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InsanePoet02 Member Posts: 15 From: Registered: 03-12-2003 |
quote: Mind that when you give a Child a present, you gave that present to that particular child. |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
quote: Brenton, how do you mean that? Just want to understand your true intent with your statement and not assume what you mean. Matt |
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InsanePoet02 Member Posts: 15 From: Registered: 03-12-2003 |
quote: Brenton, how do you mean that? Just want to understand your true intent with your statement and not assume what you mean. Matt[/QUOTE]
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
quote: Well, I was trying to find the verse, but couldn't. And that was also bothering me. I am a firm believer in responsiblity of actions. we would not need salvation if we are not responsible for our sins. I kinda have a fuzzy view of this. God knows everything; What will happen, whats happening, and what happened. He created time and is not subject to it. But we are in time, and we make choices in it. It's hard to comprehend, though. Probably because I'm inside time. P.S. Hmm, the present and the child analogy reminds me of the sowing of the seeds parable... ------------------ [This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited March 25, 2003).] |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
Is it just me, or are we all saying the same thing in different ways? ArchAngel: Your "fuzzy" view is close to how I understand it. |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
My two cents worth. We have free will. God being able to know before hand what we will choose does not change that we choose it, or that we have the ability to make any choice. It simply means He is bigger than us. Paul speaks of the potter having the right to fashion some vessels for honour, and some for dishonour. In other words, He is God, He can do what He likes. :-) |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
yeah, CobraA1, we seem pretty much seem to say the same things. There is... Unity. (Agent Smith voice, please. Just cuz it sounds cool) ------------------ |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
oh, and I also believe God's in control. ------------------ |
MaxX Member Posts: 77 From: New Jersey, USA Registered: 07-30-2002 |
God is outside of time, he created it. The word predestined in that verse pre-desties keep quoting (forget what it is) is a bad translation. It would be better written as "pre-known". |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
God is clearly in control of everything, though. But at the same time, he gives us free-will. He's much more powerful than us, and is capable of more that we can imagine. (christians are also refer to as "God's Elect") this is a very complicated deep issue.
quote: I know... it baffles me to think of it. He doesn't need to respond to situations. He doesn't need to change. He doesn't need to predict the future. The future, the past and present are all together. It's cool to think about. ------------------ [This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited March 29, 2003).] |
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MaxX Member Posts: 77 From: New Jersey, USA Registered: 07-30-2002 |
A christian scientist once said this, in order to understand how God sees time, think of looking at a timeline. You see the whole thing end to end, the big picture if you will. CS Lewis also said that God could focus on one small prayer at one specific time the same way an author could spend hours thinking about one second in a book he was writing. |
Soul Joy Member Posts: 35 From: Hallettsville, TX , USA Registered: 12-18-2002 |
Maxx I am not pointing at you but the fellow who was so narrow minded. The devil travels to and fro which is the time line but he does not travel eternity - only God knows the eternal. God also would that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ. That is His desire but man on the other hand has choice and a large quantity of them choose to serve their own selves and in so doing loose their lives to eternal damnation. The Lord wants to fulfill the desire of our heart but man as a whole thinks this means the things they want but our true desire should be to know God in a more intimate way and far more deeper than a superficial life seeking self seeking desires. By the way I am talking about the scientist! [This message has been edited by Soul Joy (edited March 30, 2003).] |
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GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
Spacetime is the four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial coordinates which makes up our universe. I don't see how wanting to also understand the workings of the creation is superficial? Which I assume you mean to say trivial or insignificant. BTW, that's the standard thought on spacetime but it is also possible that physical space is 4 dimensional with the 5th being time. [This message has been edited by GUMP (edited March 31, 2003).] |
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Soul Joy Member Posts: 35 From: Hallettsville, TX , USA Registered: 12-18-2002 |
Oh I am not making it trivial but more to the point. God asked satan in scripture where he had been. The devil answered to and fro etc.before God ask the devil if during that particular time if he had considered Job. Job 1:7 The devils realm does not include eternity for if he understood eternity he would know the end of all things and only God knows the end. Our understanding of time is based on provided theory that is relatively new as compared to the extent at which time really is. It there a theory related to the post This will probably be my last post for a while. It is far to difficult to express thoughts here except in parts. And some of the debates here are hard on new believers and cause a great deal of confusion for some. I think this group does give many people an opportunity to see peoples opinions but like e-mail it can be too easily misconceived unless among close friends who have a long standing friendship. I have noticed that mostly there is a great deal of mild to strong conflict in many boards on many sites. But there seems to be no way to come to conclusion. It usually is one opinion banging heads with another. I do appreciated the fervency of those here and their commitment to various beliefs but I find it hard to keep up with and to keep a focus. It has nothing to do with your post, my friend, just that I do not even send out e-mail to our lists anymore without double and double a double checking and praying before I send it out. I am glad there was nothing like this back when the bible was taking shape. I can only imagine what would have happened. BIG SMILE ------------------ |