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whitecat Junior Member Posts: 9 From: England Registered: 12-12-2002 |
Hi, I came across this site through Blitzcoder and was wondering if you could answer a question for me. I'm not a christian, it's something I have struggled with on and off for most of my life. It's not that I don't want to be, but that I can't believe it. My life at the moment is not bad, though I do suffer from bouts of depression, but it always feels as if something is missing. I just wondered what it was that helped people here to believe in God and Christ, to take that step from wanting to believe to actually believing. I have tried many times in my life to take that step, but nothing I do can convince me, I know it's about faith and not about proof, but it's hard to have faith in something you just can't believe. whitecat |
Believer Member Posts: 80 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: 01-30-2001 |
For me the biggest challenge to my faith has always been how to reconcile it with "science". Every time you turn around there seems to be some new discovery that supports the evolutionist view. TV channels like TLC and Discovery are always running episodes that "explain" the Bible as folk tales borrowed from older civilizations, and so on. Even within the Church you find Christians who bend their beliefs to incorporate non-Biblical views. Like those who say "a day is like 10,000 years to God, so creation really rook 60,000 years". Some will even suggest that evolution is a tool that God used to create life. Nonsense like that just makes Christianity look wishy-washy. It's no wonder that many folks find it hard to make the "leap of faith" with all that going on! I've been a Christian pretty much all my life, but it was these things that made me begin to have doubts. So I began to look for Christian interpretations of the scientific evidence that is used against Christianity. I've looked for answers to everything from dinosaurs to starlight, from aliens to the flood. Over the past year or two I've come to the conclusion that there is, in fact, as much or more scientific evidence to actually support the Bible view than there is against it. I might have saved myself a lot of time had I found one particular web site early on, and that is http://www.answersingenesis.org If you are facing the same questions that I did, I encourage you to visit this site and take the time to read the articles. When you get in to the main page of the site, look in the top right corner for a panel that says "QUESTIONS & ANSWERS". Below that there is a link to "MORE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS". CLick that and you'll reach their index. The index has dozens of sections, ranging from aliens to young age evidence. Within each section you'll find several articles. The articles vary from simple essays to detailed scientific studies. ------------------ |
CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
quote: So, you are saying you want to believe, but don't? You might surprise yourself.
quote: Tell me, what do you think about Jesus? What did he do on the cross? Why? Tell me what YOU think. |
Danno Member Posts: 15 From: Seattle, WA Registered: 01-20-2001 |
Hi WhiteCat, You can read how I came to believe in Jesus at: http://www.unitygame.com/what_i_believe.htm I hope this helps. Dan |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
The word 'believe' in the Bible does not mean to accept that Jesus lived, died and lives again. It means something far more fundamental. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is indeed that He did these things for us, but it's also tied in the fact that the *reason* He did this was to send His Spirit to indwell us, to make us one with the Father. This is such an important thing that it's not been made some airy-fairy emotional idea, but rather the Bible ties it to physical evidence. If you want to know God, then you need merely to ask Him, and He will fill you with the Holy Spirit. When He does, you will know because you will speak in tongues. This means that God will give you a language so you can pray to Him, because the Bible says we do not know what we should pray for, but the Spirit gives us the words, which we cannot understand. Christianity is far more than speaking in tongues, the experience of becoming a Christian is far more than this gift also. But this gift is nominated as the manifestation of the Spirit in the Bible. Don't seek tongues, or any other gift, seek Jesus. If you do, when you become a Christian you'll know it, because you'll speak in tongues. Whereabouts are you ? I may be able to recommend a church in your area that will be able to pray with you and encourage you in your quest to know God. |
Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." To put simple I found that the more I digged into the Bible the more I belived. Faith comes by hearing and you can only hear by the word of God. The word of God is the Bible. That is in short how I came about to beliving, having faith, and putting my feet to the words. I have also seen to much in my short life time... I cant deniy that God is there. Eather everything is a merical or none of it is. Well enough from me im sure others have their openions on the matter |
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whitecat Junior Member Posts: 9 From: England Registered: 12-12-2002 |
thank you for all your quick responses. CobraA1 - yes I want to believe, but just can't One of the problems I have is that I need everything in black and white, everything proved, solid evidence before I'll believe anything in my life. I realise that this isn't the way to accept God, but it's how I am, making that leap of faith for me seems to be impossible. The only thing I seem able to truly believe is that when you die, that's it, there's nothing, that our life exists only on earth and then it's over. It's such a cold bleak view and not what I want to believe, but it's what I do. I have read the Bible, I've tried praying, at college I went to a local church with a christian friend of mine and we prayed together. I don't know what else to try. I suppose I'm expecting some amazing revelation, some blinding affirmation that God exists, I'm probably expecting too much, but you all seem to have such a deep and unshakable belief that I can only imagine something like that to break through my cynisism. Sorry to go on like this, but it is something that is very important to me, it's something I don't want to give up on, but don't know if I'll ever be able to accept. |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
Well, the whole point of Bible Christianity is that it IS a 'revelation', a life changing, physical experience. Jesus called it being born again. What's the point in claiming that you've been reborn and united with your creator, if you don't feel any different, if nothing happens ? |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
quote: You should probably know that there's much of science that can't be proven, either. In fact, some scientists are saying that nothing can be proven for sure.
quote: I seriously doubt you can prove that, so you're already believing something you can't prove.
quote: Some of the articles from Tektonics might help: We'll always be here also, and there's probably pastors in your area. I think everybody on this board agrees that reading the Bible can help tremendously. Some articles discussing the existance of God: The Christian ThinkTank goes deep into some of the philisophical questions: The AIG website has a Q & A: The LCMS has a .pdf pamphalent about creation and evolution also:
quote: heh, I like to think so, but I've found I'm all too human sometimes. I've had my doubting moments. Believe me, being a Christian isn't that easy. I'm still waiting for some amazing revalation from the atheists that God doesn't exist . . .
quote: Can you prove this smiley: Your demand that everything has to be proven for you to believe it is somewhat unreasonable. There's so much going on in the world that it's impossible for a single human on the face of the earth to prove even a small fraction of what is known, and there's more that's unknown than known. You probably trust a thousand devices every day to do tasks, although you haven't proven the devices work the way they claim. Try a different perspective for once. # "Science is a tool. If the tool works, we use it. If it's true, that's great, but if it isn't, it doesn't matter" -- ("Desert Fox" from GameDev.net)'s physics teacher # "The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him" -- Proverbs 18:17, NIV # "'Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing,' answered Holmes thoughtfully; 'it may seem to point very straight to one thing, but if you shift your point of view a little, you may find it pointing in an equally uncompromising manner to something entirely different' . . . 'There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact.'" --Sherlock Holmes novel (dont' know which book) |
InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
Whitecat, I cannot see the wind, but I can see the effects of the wind. I will conclude that God does exist because I see the effects of God. God works in the life of the Christian and where the miracles are perfromed is in the hearts of men. That the evilist of men will become new with a pure heart. Though you may not see the sky spit and some miraculous event saying that God exists (though, not now anyway). But what we do is is that is the sinful hearts of men become new. ------------------ |
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graceworks Member Posts: 455 From: Corvallis, Oregon, USA Registered: 03-03-2001 |
quote: Whitecat - Please know that we are praying for you, that God will reveal himself to you in a way so you can take that step of faith. -Tim ------------------ |
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Curry Member Posts: 134 From: USA Registered: 11-21-2002 |
Dear WhiteCat, As Cobra1 said, it takes faith to believe either way; what secularists believe is not proven either. It's just that the media has repeated some of these things so often that we forget it's not fact. To give you something different to think about, here are my "top ten reasons to believe." :-) 10. Inherit the Wind. Have you ever seen this movie? If not, go check it out (old or new version, they pretty similar) and I almost guarantee, if you are a critical type person who looks at things carefully, I think it will increase your faith or at least make you think. Why? Because if evolution is true, why would anyone need to lie about or misrepresent this case? On a website, find information about the real Scopes trial, then compare to the movie (find a site that compares them already if possible, and verify with Scopes trial transcript and history)--and you'll see that so many things are misrepresented and made up it's hard to find anything that isn't. Of course it's fiction, so they can get away with that--but obviously, this film was made to promote evolution and make retaining a traditional strict Creation faith seem hopeless. 9. Liberals don't like it. Yeah, they're OK with totally bland Christianity as long as people are timid enough to appease them, but anything really Christian gets them all riled up. So, what are you waiting for? You want to see the liberals show their true colors, right? Start by going to all the elementary schools and passing out Ten Commandments and Leviticus "Thou shalt not lie down with mankind" book covers to the kids. Then make a big wooden sign of the Ten Commandments and put it up on a local courthouse in the middle of the night. The next day, go to the mall and picket with a Pro-Jesus, Anti-Santa sign. By this time, I think you will have already found some liberals in your area that are eager to talk to you! 8. Check out Israel. Look how they fulfilled all the old prophecies by being a nation, although before WWII that seemed like a very unlikely thing, almost far-fetched. Look at their early history and how they survived wars against them where they were severely outnumbered. (You need to search the internet for this history because the it's not politically-correct and it supports Christianity, so you don't see it recounted everyday in popular media.) 7. Evil. Look at all the people who are doing evil in the world, and think, why are they doing it. Then, see if there are similarities in what these different people and groups are for and what they are against. Then see if Christianity helps to explain that. What motivates them? If you can prove to yourself the existence of supernatural evil, you're a step closer to proving to yourself the existence of the supernatural God. 6. Love. Do you feel that you have a lot of intrinsic worth? Do feel loved by anything else besides the people around you and yourself? Do you feel that you and everything else is special enough to be created? 5. Study the problems with the theory of evolution. Look at how every step of the way, every decade, evolution promoters have always tried to bluff mass media audiences and students into thinking that strict traditional faith was hopeless in the face of all the scientific evidence--all the time having to shift positions and surpress new and old scientific evidence that didn't fit in well with their sacred theory; enjoy the parade of hoaxes and mistakes through history and have a good laugh! :-) The old game continues. 4. The logical end of the theories. Although some current propaganda (like PBS) actually encourages accepting both Christianity and evolution and then makes anyone who fails to take that generous offer look really bad, logically the two faiths of evolution and Christianity lead to too many opposite ends and conclusions to be reconciled. (In fact, I think Darwin was originally Christian and became angry when a tragedy struck, so he wanted to have some alternative he could believe in.) So, evolution is pretty much the basis of being free to reject Christianity. Where does evolution logically lead and what does it mean about our life now? As you can see, it makes a difference on how we interpret the world, ourselves, individual worth, rights, etc. If all life came from the same stuff and we're only different and more valuable (or not) than a toadstool because of some chance accidents, then what does it mean about our worth? Is it as special as being created? On the one hand, some will tend to think we are not more special than other forms of life. On the other hand, some will think we are, but due to the process of adaptation and the value in the adaptations that have happened to produce something more special. Even in that case, though, you may find that the worth is in humankind as a genetic and cultural achievement and that each human life (and there are over six billion) is not considered as valuable individually, by many whose thinking is strongly influences by evolution. Case in point: Marxist atheist totalitarian governments, which have killed more people than anyone else in the world ever in history, period. Another case in point: all the nature and animal and environmental shows and movements where everything is good--except humans, the ENEMY! :-) I call this kind of thing the "anti-human channel." Because there are many of us and few of some species, from a viewpoint of genetic and cultural worth through adaptation and preserving different resulting forms, the last ten of a species of endangered frogs may be worth more than a million humans--that's a small percentage of us, after all. So we don't see two much about giving aid to starving Africans any more like we did in the eighties; we see the occasional Christian hunger program if you flip through the right channel at night, but twenty four hour programming on multiple channels trying to earn respect and get support for animals. (I also love the environment, BTW, but value individual humans intensely because of the Christian viewpoint that affects my judging worth.) 3. See after-death experiences, both positive and negative. (Watch the movie To Hell and Back, which you can see free on tbn.org if you have fast enough internet.) Ask old people about how common death bed experiences of seeing angels etc. used to be before people were so heavily medicated. Also, see interesting evidence for the authenticity of the life of Jesus including his resurrection--for example, see Dr. Kennedy's Who is this Jesus, and books or videos like the Resurrection on Trial (lots of stuff with that kind of name, forget which is which). You'd be surprised at the variety of evidence on different aspects. 2. Give yourself joy. (I think Christianity does that.) Although there are always some saddening or angering things. 1. Prove it to yourself one way or the other. Don't be afraid to prove it. You have to do it! You might be afraid the evidence would turn up against Christianity, but actually, if you don't look you may not see valuable evidence for it, plus you'll only see what people want you to see, which is usually carefully filtered material against it. I'm a Christian because all the evidence supports it to me. If not, I couldn't be a Christian because it wouldn't be intellectually honest. I don't think God wants people to be unthinking, unproven Christians either. On the other hand, don't expect the dial to end up swinging around to the answer "Christian!" if you undertake the task of finding out using only the materials and methods promoted by those who are against Christianity or any mainstream interpretation of it. You have to look at a variety of evidence--what's promoted by those against and for Christianity, and maybe some other things you find, plus your own valuable observations and logical conclusions as you look at the whole picture of life and see how it fits into the various theories. Curry |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
It's actually quite interesting to hear the physiological reasons why people exerience near death the way that they do. If it helps you to think logically about these things, that's fine, but human logic and reason is not what Christianity is about, it's about faith, and evidence from God. |
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Curry Member Posts: 134 From: USA Registered: 11-21-2002 |
Yeah, I agree about the importance of spirtual experience and failed to include in my reasons, spiritual experiences and insight/knowledge from God are also evidence--the best evidence. Also, I didn't mention -- the Bible says that people are given different gifts and abilities; we could infer that different people may have slightly different types of primary reasons and evidence leading up to faith because of the different areas in their life and mind where God works with them. About the near death experiences, actually I should have said clinical death--that's what the Hell and Back dealt with, and the author Dr. Rawlings has a book that's even better than the tape in delving into the issue, although the testimonies on video are of course more touching. The physiological aspects are interesting, but I'm not sure we're on the same page in our interest--I think a good case has been presented for the reality of many experiences. If you think about it, these experiences also seem very compatible with what we know from the Bible, so from a Christian viewpoint, their existence might be less surprising than if they didn't exist.
[This message has been edited by Curry (edited December 13, 2002).] |
Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
Wow. I don't know what to add onto all this stuff, just want to say that I'm praying for you whitecat, I love ya and it's ok to ask questions! Ask God them too and see what He does/says, that's what I do.  ------------------ |
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Christian Member Posts: 400 From: Australia Registered: 09-15-2002 |
I doubt we're on the same page, but near death experiences of moving towards a light and feeling euphoria, or floating above your body, are easily explained as part of the process of the brain dying. Naturally I believe what the Bible says about death ( when we die, we sleep in Christ and await the resurrection when He returns ), I just believe that 'near death' experiences aren't really proof of anything. |
D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
Have we had a thread about near death experience before?? Maybe it's just deja-vu!! --D-SIPL ------------------ |
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whitecat Junior Member Posts: 9 From: England Registered: 12-12-2002 |
thanks again for all your replies I have a lot of reading and thinking to do. I don't know if I will ever be able to make that final leap of faith, it's something that seems out of reach to me, but I will not give up |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
Yeah, you have a lot or reading and thinking to do. I'm not sure what's stopping you, but I pray it can be overcome. Welcome to the forums, BTW. |
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D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
Welcome to CCN, hope you stick around! --D-SIPL ------------------ |
rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
Heyo I hope you're still around. I really think you need to read the Bible. It's better to hear things straight from the Word of God. You will want a good, easy to read translation like the New International Version (NIV), and I would recommend starting with a Gospel (John's is my fav). You don't have much to lose - at worst you're going to find yourself reading an amazing story about a guy who performed miracles and gave his life for the world - better than most novels. And at best you'll get all the answers to your questions, and get to know God We will be praying for you. ------------------ |
Destroyer Member Posts: 31 From: Bismarck, ND Registered: 10-06-2002 |
quote: I have a friend who was like that, and it took an experiance with God to bring him to accept him. he was brought to my church by another of my friends and when we were praying he felt God's presence there. I don't know if this will help you any, but who knows. |
is red? Why or why not? Do you believe it's red? Why or why not?