For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

I think worldly charity is giving what you can afford to give, so that you may feel better about yourself, and Godly charity (to which we must aspire) is giving what it hurts us to give, out of love. It is in this way that the world will see in us a reflection of Jesus, who gave everything He had.

I personally think Christians should stay away from political matters (unless guided to do so by the Holy Spirit), because such things are usually not based on the complete truth, and a Christian can easily find himself supporting a cause which appears good, but has darker motives. If that cause becomes his focus instead of Jesus, he is in trouble. It is worth noting that Jesus and his disciples never protested against the Roman empire.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited December 07, 2002).]

quote:

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That is a follower of Christ, trying to become more like Him in everything.

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Do you mean more like Him in terms of trying to live a perfect life under the OT Law, or in terms of being what He would have people to be in the NT of His blood ?

Regarding your question:

First of all I will answer your question, then comment on the scriptures. Feeding the poor on a day to day basis until they die in sin is what I call worldly charity. It profits in the short term, but does not save the soul. Too many 'churches' have no idea what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is about, and spend all their time in this endeavour. It is not without merit, it is not something I would oppose, indeed it is something I would support with my money and time, but it is not Christianity.

Now the scripture. In the first instance, when Jesus said 'these', He actually said this

quote:

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Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

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Jesus brethren are the sons and daughters of God, this is not about charity to the world at large. Jesus said 'you will have the poor with you always', He did not regard worldly charity as the core of the Gospel. Indeed, in 1 Cor 13, Paul says that it's possible to give all you have to the poor and not have love ( amusingly, the word in the KJV is charity, but it means love ).

Regarding James, he is talking about faith without works being dead and explaining what this means in a parable. He is not saying that we are not saved unless we feed the poor, because that proves our faith has no works. Naturally, what he says has practical application, and comes back to what Jesus said also, that if we see a brother or sister in need, we should help them. Again, the focus is on the church helping each other in material needs by those who have sharing with those who have not.

Again, I am all for helping people who have had some bad fortune in their life, but I think such help should exist apart from the Gospel and not be confused with it. In Africa, the church I belong to has assemblies, and other, mainstream churches have big missions there. If you want food, you need to join their church. That is plain wrong.

Your point about giving until it hurts does not work for me, I am afraid. Jesus said that all men would know we were His disciples because of the love we have for one another, not because we gave 80 % of our worldly goods to strangers outside the church. If you want to do that, I applaud you for your generosity, but I still maintain it is something that exists outside the Gospel, for the reasons I gave. If I give to charity, I expect not to make it known, because I seek not to be seen by others. I don't mean to presume you are self righteous about it, on the contrary I assume otherwise and therefore wonder how anyone would know how much you give and when. This then negates the idea that it is a witness to others.

quote:

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I personally think Christians should stay away from political matters (unless guided to do so by the Holy Spirit),

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This is another interesting question. Your statement has just imploded in my opinion, because I'm sure there are people who have shot abortion doctors and claim to have been lead by the Spirit. Anyone who gets involved in any sort of politics in the name of God is going to make that claim. To me, it's a cop out, but I admit I say this because of my own experience, where my father claims Godly authority for even the most mundane things he does, and it's really all quite depressing.

quote:

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It is worth noting that Jesus and his disciples never protested against the Roman empire.

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Yes, an excellent point. Paul also wrote to obey authority. I always love reading where Jesus was asked if the people should pay taxes.

--D-SIPL

Trying to act as Jesus would have acted.

--D-SIPL

I don't mean to sound like I'm writing a test, I'm not seeking to tell you if you're right or wrong, just naturally commenting on my opinion in response to yours. I'm really quite interested to see if anyone feels that we need to be running a soup kitchen, or campaigning against abortion, or Sunday trading, or anything else, as well as what other responses people make.

I may be wrong??

--D-SIPL

quote:

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Originally posted by christian:
Do you mean more like Him in terms of trying to live a perfect life under the OT Law, or in terms of being what He would have people to be in the NT of His blood ?

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As Paul says:

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

The idea is to be like Him in everything in our lives, not to copy everything in His life. Quite clearly following Jesus doesn't mean
moving to Israel, growing a beard, and trying to be a Mosiac Law abiding Jew, but rather putting what he has taught us into practice in our own lives, ie. WWJD

So you think you only need to help members of your congregation - have you forgotten who your neighbour is? And how can you say - I love my neighbour if you will not take care of his physical needs?

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

quote:

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Originally posted by christian:
Your statement has just imploded in my opinion, because I'm sure there are people who have shot abortion doctors and claim to have been lead by the Spirit

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Are you suggesting we ingore the guidance of the Holy Spirit within us, just because some people make false claims about the Holy Spirit. People make false claims about God, the Bible, everything, and God will judge them for it.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

D-SIPL:

It's my opinion that God does not call people to run soup kitchens, rather people who are religious decide it is Gods calling when they follow their own desires. I am not saying that God does not care for the hungry, it gets back to what I said above. Feeding the hungry, if it is to be true charity, should happen for people regardless of if they are saved or not. The Bible's instruction is for the church to care for her own, which is seperate from that. And showing Gods love to the world does not mean feeding their belly, but their soul. So the two are quite seperate, although doing the one without the other is obviously without worth also. God calls us all to be examples of His love to this world, I don't believe He calls people to specific jobs, that implies that He needs a particular individual to get a certain job done.

Rowan:

First of all, yes the WWJD idea is a good way of explaining about 40-50 % of the Gospel.

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So you think you only need to help members of your congregation

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Not at all. However, you quote James again:

{quote]
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demonsbelieve that--and shudder.
[/quote]

So you believe that faith is shown not by belief in the promises of God, but in acts of human kindness ? I disagree. Our fatih is shown by our deeds, and our deeds are to be acts of faith in God, which is more likely to mean the offer to pray for someone than it is the offer to make them a jam sandwich, although James earlier comments also hold, it would be better to give them the sandwich first and then tell them what better things God has for them. However, the former is not an act that shows you are a Christian, it just shows common sense and basic human charity.

quote:

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Are you suggesting we ingore the guidance of the Holy Spirit within us, just because some people make false claims about the Holy Spirit. People make false claims about God, the Bible, everything, and God will judge them for it.

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I am suggesting that the Holy Spirits role is to bring things to our rememberance, so that we have a conscience about doing what God has told us to in the way we live our lives. I am suggesting that whenever people claim the Spirit has told them to do something that cannot be shown from the Bible, they are in fact following the flesh and seeking to justify it in the name of God.

BKewl:

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Christian, where exactly did you get the info that Jesus said "my brethren" in that passage?

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www.blueletterbible.org. I remembered that is what it said, I looked it up on that web site and copied and pasted it directly across. It's Matt 25:40.

NKJV And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

KJV And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me

New English Translation And the king will answer them,7 'I tell you the truth,8 just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it for me.'

You get the point. I suspect you were looking at the wrong verse ?

The entire context (John 3:1-21)

Matthew 5-7

Luke 10:25-37 is a good passage

Matthew 25:31-46

Just read the NT.

No, I take that back. Read the entire Bible .

I should do that sometime . . .

WDJB? (What Did Jesus Believe?)

I always like Luke 11 because it's also about the same thing.

WDJB ? Perhaps this is a better question than WWJD, because it goes beyond actions, to pure motivations. I am about to go to church, so I can't look up the other verses you refer to, although I *think* I know what some of them say, at least. But of course, reading the Bible is not of any worth unless we mix it with faith and act on what it says. So your answer is an important building block on the other answers given, but it also does not really answer what I meant to ask - how is your behaviour affected by what you read in the Bible, and how is your life affected by what the Bible says ? What is it about your *life* that makes you believe it is a Christian one, as opposed to one that is lived apart from God ?

quote:

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So you believe that faith is shown not by belief in the promises of God, but in acts of human kindness ? I disagree.

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Why when I quote James, without even commenting on the passage do you accuse me of me of error ? Please do not put words in my mouth. I was trying to convey the point that James is clearly making: FAITH WITHOUT DEEDS IS DEAD.

So you honestly believe that your charity only has to extend to members of your church ?? Please explain the parable of the good samaritan !!Personally I think charity to members of your church is the easiest of all charities.

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Matthew 5:46-47

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. Ezekiel 16:49

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew 19:21

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 1:27

"Tonight thousands of people on this earth will die of starvation. Most of you will not give a a shit. And most of you will be more upset with the fact that I said, 'shit' than that thousands of people will die tonight." -- Tony Campolo at Jesus Festival

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited December 08, 2002).]

Rowan - your interpretation of the verse in James seemed obvious to me, tell me if I misunderstood you. Other than that, the parable of the Good Samaritan shows how to be neighbourly, but the Samaritan came across someone who had physical need, he did not go out of his way to find people in such a situation. And this is really the difference. You seem to me to be suggesting that being a Christian means going out and finding those dying in sin and giving them some food to keep them going while they die. All I have been saying is that while it's important to be willing to provide physical help to those we meet, the scriptures about caring for the poor in the NT are often directed towards those with need in the church, and Jesus at no point made it his business to meet peoples physical needs alone.

I should add that I made clear that I do *not* believe that I must show kindess only to those in my congregation, and while I may have misunderstood you, you did not even attempt to answer the things that I said. I'd appreciate your perspective on my prior post, if you feel inclined to offer them.

[This message has been edited by Christian (edited December 08, 2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Christian:
Fair enough. I'm glad you got what I was saying, Rowan appears not to have done. The point I really am trying to converge on here is that Christianity is not just being a certain sort of person in the natural, it's more than being nice, or even being charitable.

---

There's a lot of your heretical beliefs I don't "get", but we all agree that there's a lot more to being a Christian than being nice or charitable.

quote:

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But the point I am trying to make is that verses which are actually about the church looking out for each other are often misunderstood, and many relgious organisations seem to spend a lot of time seeking out the poor of this world, as if social justice is all that matters.

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If a man goes and lives in the desert to avoid meeting people, is he keeping the commandment "love thy neighbour"? Sitting around waiting for the poor to come to you sounds like a great way of avoiding actually having to help anyone.

quote:

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It almost implies that the rich have no need of salvation, and it certainly implies that all God cares about is making sure everyone has a feed.

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You're a a fellow C++ programmer. I expect better logic from you than this. How on earth does seeking to help the poor "certainly imply" that God only cares about feeding people??

quote:

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I'd appreciate your perspective on my prior post, if you feel inclined to offer them.

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quote:

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although James earlier comments also hold

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No kidding ?

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what greater thing can you do to show Jesus love ? Preach the Gospel.

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Supposing you see someone cold hungry and homeless. Which of the following hurts you the most, and causes him to feel the most loved (and so more receptive to hearing about Jesus)

a) You get out your Bible (which he doesn't believe in) and you give him a good preaching to.
b) You give some spare change (of which you have plenty).
c) You give him your coat.

If you ever find yourself in Belfast late at night when the pubs are closing, you will see two kinds of Christian. One kind is handing out coffee or food and getting into great conversations about Jesus with people who want to know why anyone would give them anything for free. The other is handing out tracts, and feeling so holy for being out late preaching the gospel to all the "wicked" people who throw their tracts in the nearest bin.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

quote:

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Originally posted by Christian:
many relgious organisations seem to spend a lot of time seeking out the poor of this world, as if social justice is all that matters

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at this point i find myself asking, if Jesus were here now would He be correcting people's theology in churches in the Western world, or helping those in need in other countries around the world. And im not thinking it's theology. What would you rather these religious organisations did? Hand out tracts on the street, shove the gospel down peoples throats in a way that isn't relevant to the people they are talking to, and in a way that shows no Christ like love at all. Im not saying we've got it right, but when people are following Christ's example, i don't think you can say its wrong!

quote:

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Originally posted by Christian:
It almost implies that the rich have no need of salvation, and it certainly implies that all God cares about is making sure everyone has a feed

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only if you're seeing "need" as serving the needs of the stomach. what about the need for love, compassion, grace, forgiveness? What about the need for a listening ear? Aid organisations do this and much more besides...

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// "God is most glorified in
us when we are most
satisfied in Him" - a quote to
live your life by

But that's just me

--D-SIPL

[This message has been edited by D-SIPL (edited December 09, 2002).]

quote:

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If a man goes and lives in the desert to avoid meeting people, is he keeping the commandment "love thy neighbour"? Sitting around waiting for the poor to come to you sounds like a great way of avoiding actually having to help anyone.

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No, going out and seeking people with physical needs to help is a good way to avoid the fact that the more affluent people who surround us daily are equally lost in sin. It's easier to give a stranger a sandwhich, and perhaps a pamphlet, than it is to make a stand for Christ to the person you sit next to at work every day.

You are again twisting my words instead of replying to what I am saying.

quote:

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How on earth does seeking to help the poor "certainly imply" that God only cares about feeding people??

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It's obvious. If all you do as a Christian is seek the unfortunate in order to meet thier physical need, that either implies that you're ignoring the Gospel, or that you think the Gospel is meat and drink.

quote:

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Supposing you see someone cold hungry and homeless. Which of the following hurts you the most, and causes him to feel the most loved (and so more receptive to hearing about Jesus)

a) You get out your Bible (which he doesn't believe in) and you give him a good preaching to.
b) You give some spare change (of which you have plenty).
c) You give him your coat.

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I presume you're once again ignoring what I wrote prior ? Given that you 'don't get what I believe', I am starting to assume you are not reading what I say at all before responding. You sure are not answering my question and show no sign of having read what I wrote.

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If you ever find yourself in Belfast late at night when the pubs are closing, you will see two kinds of Christian.

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The first kind you mention is doing what I have been advocating, therefore I presume that as the context seems to indicate you support the same, that you're arguing with me for the sake of it. I wonder though if either type actually gets out of their comfort zone to speak to anyone but strangers.

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at this point i find myself asking, if Jesus were here now would He be correcting people's theology in churches in the Western world, or helping those in need in other countries around the world.

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Well, again, I see no indication that Jesus sought out people simply to meet their physical needs. None at all. I believe He would do what He did - travel and speak to people indicriminately, rich or poor, meeting their needs, but only as a vehicle in preaching the Gospel of His Father.

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And im not thinking it's theology. What would you rather these religious organisations did?

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Obey God.

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Hand out tracts on the street, shove the gospel down peoples throats in a way that isn't relevant to the people they are talking to, and in a way that shows no Christ like love at all. Im not saying we've got it right, but when people are following Christ's example, i don't think you can say its wrong!

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1. I never said not to feed the poor. My point is that many 'Christian' churches are trying to feed the poor food only, and not the Gospel.

2. Christ's example does not involve feeding the poor, or clothing them, or any other natural thing, as the central point.

3. I'm disappointed that no-one seems to even mention Jesus example, which was to present the Gospel by words and deed to EVERYONE He met.

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only if you're seeing "need" as serving the needs of the stomach. what about the need for love, compassion, grace, forgiveness? What about the need for a listening ear? Aid organisations do this and much more besides...

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Yes, and they are all human things. A non Christian can equally do all those things. I am not decrying charity, I am just wondering why it is that people seem to think that something which Jesus never did and which nonChristians do equally well is the mark of Christianity.

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Not trying to stir up trouble, but if i was homeless and hungry, i would be like "give me something to eat, and i'll listen to you for as long as you want!!"

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Of course. But the real question is, do you NEED to be homeless and hungry to need the gospel ? It's pretty easy to go up to someone like that and use food to make them listen to you. It's harder to preach the Gospel to people you see every day. Of *course* I would feed the poor where I can. But that does not mean that I need to seek out such people to preach the Gospel, or that the Gospel is a sandwich and a Coke.

You're now suggesting that perhaps we agree and I'm arguing with you for the sake of it? Do you think I enjoy these discussions? It was blindingly obvious from your first post "What is Christianity?" that you weren't interested in other people's opinions but wanted a platform to belittle the missions of other churches and preach your revivalist message.

Why have you assumed that because we believe God has called us to serve the poor of this world, that we neglect the rich? We don't - we follow the example of Jesus in showing no favouritism.

Why have you assumed that because we feed the poor we have no interest in their spiritual wellfare?

Why have you assumed that because we seek out the poor that this is our primary focus and our defintion of being a christian?

Please show me where I have said these things if I have.

I think it is you who is in your comfort zone. It is easier for you to tell yourself that the poor don't need your help, because helping the poor is the thing that would hurt you most.

Proverbs 28:27

27 He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

quote:

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Originally posted by christian:
It's obvious from another discussion on this site that some people here believe it's their Christian duty to visibly and vocally campaign against abortion. I don't want to discuss that, but I am interested in knowing what people think it means to be a Christian ? What should a Christian be known for ? Is it politics ? Is it worldly charity ( i.e. feeding and clothing the poor ) ? Is it presenting an image of being middle class ? OR is it something else ?

---

Can someone be truly Christian without opposing the shedding of innocent blood? Some of us stand in protest before abortion clinics; some of us stand in prayer against the evil of abortion; some contribute to prolife organizations; and some run for elective office. However you choose to do so---if you would be Christian---you must oppose abortion, because abortion is the shedding of innocent blood.

In whole, each of us will find out what it is to be a Christian at the point of our physical death, when the work of the LORD has been completed in us.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

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Christian: Trying to discuss anything with you is very frustrating because you distort and misrepresent what everyone else says. You never back anything up from scripture, and you like to think that we're all insufficently enlightened to understand your "superior" beliefs.

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This is clearly your hang up, as no-one else seems to have come to this conclusion. It's especially clear since I have mentioned scripture. If you're not familiar enough with the Bible to recognise this without chapter and verse, please say so and I will try to help.

quote:

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You're now suggesting that perhaps we agree and I'm arguing with you for the sake of it? Do you think I enjoy these discussions? It was blindingly obvious from your first post "What is Christianity?" that you weren't interested in other people's opinions but wanted a platform to belittle the missions of other churches and preach your revivalist message.

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Again, this is your hang up. Have I preached anything in this thread ? I'm really very interested in other peoples point of view here, and as I said last time, the point you are making is the point I have made - that we should try to meet peoples needs if we can, but that the Gospel is more than food and drink.

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Why have you assumed that because we believe God has called us to serve the poor of this world, that we neglect the rich? We don't - we follow the example of Jesus in showing no favouritism.

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God has called us to preach the Gospel, it is you who seem to be saying otherwise. I can only reply to your posts, if they do not clearly represent your views, that is not my fault.

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Why have you assumed that because we feed the poor we have no interest in their spiritual wellfare?

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Because you've not mentioned it once.

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Why have you assumed that because we seek out the poor that this is our primary focus and our defintion of being a christian?

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Because it's what you talked about when I asked for such a definition.

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Please show me where I have said these things if I have.

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I asked for a definition and that is what you said. I am sorry if I presumed to take you at your word.

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I think it is you who is in your comfort zone. It is easier for you to tell yourself that the poor don't need your help, because helping the poor is the thing that would hurt you most.

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Thank you for once again contradicting me. Seriously, I'm not sure what your problem is, but I propose that if all you want to do is attack me that for the sake of good feeling on this site that you just pull your head in until you're willing to actually talk to me instead of at me.

quote:

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Proverbs 28:27

27 He who gives to the poor will lack nothing,but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses.

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The Romans killed people for sport, did Jesus once mention this or try to change it ?

So here's one simple point for you to respond to if you please. You have stated quite clearly on a few occasions that you don't believe God has called us to serve the poor, although you say it is common sense. I say that God has called us to preach the gospel AND to live what we preach. I also say that the gospel clearly calls us to serve the poor.

Then Jesus said to his host, "When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." Luke 14:12-14

Please correct me if Jesus isn't telling us to seek out the poor, the crippled, the lame and the blind.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited December 10, 2002).]

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I love your God with all my heart and soul

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Then why are you so angry to think I was going to use this thread to preach His Gospel ?

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You have stated quite clearly on a few occasions that you don't believe God has called us to serve the poor

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I have stated quite clearly that the Gospel is not in meat and drink, and that we need not go to the poor in this world to find people who need to hear it. I've never said to NOT feed the poor, I've said it's not the central tenet of the Gospel.

quote:

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Please correct me if Jesus isn't telling us to seek out the poor, the crippled, the lame and the blind.

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Do you believe Jesus was saying here we have salvation by works ? I'm all for showing kindness to strangers, indeed if we do not seek out strangers, how can the Gospel spread ? My sole point is that no, I do not believe Jesus was saying we should seek to fill the bellies of the poor as a primary goal. Had that been His message, He would have sought to do so.

I'll be brief in my summary of this issue.

John 13:34,35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 14:12-21
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:23,24
(Jesus answered and said unto him,) If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 15:1-17
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Why all the verses? Because if anyone was on the verge of being a "Christian" and fully represented the struggle with the physical man and the spiritual man it was the 12 gathered for the Last Supper. These few verses, to me, summarize what it is to be a disciple of Christ - what the world has termed "Christian". There are several more principles of being like Christ explained in the later scriptures of the New Testament of course. The message of Christ was simply Love - but not merely physical love. Christ's message extended to every fiber of humanity: physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, social, etc. Christ taught by example of principle, and thus if someone is truly following in the footsteps of Christ they are impacting the world in a way that really is hard to fully comprehend. It is impossible to fathom the power of God until you have seen Him work through you. It isn't folly to seek to understand, but to whittle down the infinite glory that is God is indeed a foolish notion.

There have been very good points made in this thread but I think there is too much of a semantics debate occuring. Most of the arguments are really diverting the topic away from the core issue of what Christ was about - and thus what we should reflect as followers of Him - to areas of "social religion" that wouldn't be an issue if we, as disciples of Christ, followed the teachings and commandments of our Lord and Savior.

God Bless!
Matt

quote:

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Then why are you so angry to think I was going to use this thread to preach His Gospel?

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Because you preach the RCI Gospel, which includes such heresies as; the non-deity of Christ, the necessity of tongues for salvation and British-Israelism.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

quote:

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Christian: That's some impressive back tracking. Your early posts stated clearly that you didn't believe helping the poor had anything to do with Gospel, but it seems that you are now accepting it as *part* of the Gospel.

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No, you just don't want to get it for the reasons you yourself give. At no point is the Gospel in food and drink. Going out of our way to feed people is not the Gospel, it is charity. However, as James says, if someone has a physical need, it is obvious that we should seek to help as we can, the end goal being to preach the Gospel and to show Christ's love. My position has not changed, it's just never been what you wanted it to be.

quote:

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Because you preach the RCI Gospel, which includes such heresies as; the non-deity of Christ, the necessity of tongues for salvation and British-Israelism.

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Ah, so you DO hate my God. :0) I preach the non-deity of Christ ? Are you mental ? When did I remotely say that ? ( Hint: I'm not sure I can think of anything you could say that would be more offensive )

And yes, all Christians speak in tongues. The Bible says so. Sorry that does not suit you. Argue with Him.

I am very glad to hear you do not follow all the teachings of RCI and its leader Lloyd Longfield.

‘I don’t believe that Jesus was God. When Jesus said, ‘I and the Father are one,’ one in mind, one in concept, one in principle in the standing of the Word and so on and so on. Jesus was the Son of God, that’s all’ (Longfield, Lloyd: 1994).

‘Jesus was not Jewish (the Jews rejected Him), nor was he the King of the Jews! This is not an anti-Semitic statement about the identity of Jesus. It was Pontius Pilate who wrote, “Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews”. Pilate also asked Jesus the question, “What is truth?” and then spoke and wrote this untruth about him at Calvary’ (Revival Centres International: 1997).

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

quote:

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Is it perhaps as offensive as saying "you hate my God"?

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Well, you do. You love your God, I have no doubt, and I'm even happy to capitalise it for you, rather than cause offence. Do you accept that all Christians speak in tongues, or do you hate that doctrine ? It is a promise of my God. Reject it, and you hate Him, even if your God has the same name and literature attached to Him.

quote:

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I am very glad to hear you do not follow all the teachings of RCI and its leader Lloyd Longfield.

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Pastor Lloyd is actually retired, FWIW.

And the 'information' you present here is spread by people who were unruly members of RCI and find some sort of catharsis in spreading lies about RCI. I have said many times in the past, if you want to know what RCI believes, go to ww.rci.org.au.

but thats the way deception happens, the devil comes as an angel of light.

quote:

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Well, you do. You love your God, I have no doubt, and I'm even happy to capitalise it for you, rather than cause offence. Do you accept that all Christians speak in tongues, or do you hate that doctrine ? It is a promise of my God. Reject it, and you hate Him, even if your God has the same name and literature attached to Him.

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quote:

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And yes, all Christians speak in tongues. The Bible says so. Sorry that does not suit you. Argue with Him.

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maybe you got your doctrine from one of the demon's mentioned in?

1st timothy 4 1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

For the gospel of our Lord and Saviour Christ, the gospel of the Bible, is different than the gospel you are proclaiming.

2 Corinthians 11 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

galatians 1:6 6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

even infants in christ, as well as good theologeans can easily and quickly pull holes in the RCI doctrine, but we've been round and round and round in circles sooo many times, i don't think anybody has been persuaded by your doctines thankfully, however it has sucked alot of lifeblood out of CCN and caused CCN to be a worse place than a better one. The fruits have been anything but good. Much of the epistles are focused on correcting heresies and cultish beliefs before they had a chance to ruin the christians and derail them completely.. I know the versus i said coud be said bible bashing, but i am serious, and i care for the people here, and also newcomers who stumble accross this site and find the arguments that almost always have you in them, i also care about you and others in your church and i pray that They would find Jesus, the get the most important things of the gospel in their lives, so that Jesus would set them free, free indeed.. rather than taking the least important gift and making it hte most, and idolising it above God, above the gospel, above Jesus's sacrifice , and above the Word.
I do admit that you do have some important truths, and alot of your doctrines come from observing other inbalances in many churches. However though your doctines go to the point of washing the baby out with the bathwater, and enslaving people to a false gospel.

honestly why do you come here if you believe tht everybody on this board hates God because they reject the doctrine of neccesity of tounges?

Personally i don't want to see much more of these energy sapping threads, though i am just one person.. others may feel the same way.. in the past i had talked with many members here about a technique for dealing with this (a private area for such discussions that don't take over the public area, maybe that is what is needed)- some of the discussions are innocent and well motived enough and others aren't.. you aren't the only one at fault.. I have often foolishly responded as others have also, and sometimes in frutration rather than out of love. however i do not want to see (though of course its beyond my control ,and i don't wish to control anyway-just to express things) another and another conversation hijacked by some RCI doctrine issue.

thats all for now..

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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So you believe if you reject that all christians speak in tounges, even if you do speak in touhges, you are hating God.. and even the bible, the Word, that was there in the beginning, is pointless and useless without the doctrine of neccessity of tounges?, even the atonement of Christ for sin, his death and ressurction is periferal to the doctrines of tounges, and pointless unless one believes in the neccesity of tounges.. Can you see why people disagree with you so much? and why your church is on almost every list of cults?

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I believe what Jesus said. I believe that when someone becomes a Christian they speak in tongues, and that this is merely the outward sign of the inward experience, however necessary it is ( and the Bible explains why ), it is really not the core. The core issue is Jesus death and resurrection, which He made clear was so He could send the Spirit. If you don't have the manifestation of the Spirit, you don't have the Spirit, so any mental assent you might have to Jesus sacrifice is in vain. If you have the Spirit and tell others they are saved apart from that experience, then you grieve the Spirit.

And I've read all the cult sites, and discussed here before some of the statements they make which are total and complete lies, so far as being the opposite of what we do. On that basis, and on the basis that the main one is run by people with a personal vendetta which has nothing to do with our doctrine and everything to do with their fornication, I think it reasonable that knowing that everything they say that I *can* verify is a lie, I don't take anything I can't immediately verify too seriously.

And yes, I would trust the JW site to tell me what JW's believe. It would be counter productive for them to claim they believe something they do not on their website, the main people to look at it will be their members, surely ?

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Call it what you like, all I care about is what the Bible says, not what man decides to call it.

And I *really* didn't want to argue about this, I was mainly concerned at the introspective nature of things here and hoped to generate a little thought along those lines.

quote:

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You must be reading some different sites to me. Have I ever claimed that children should not have sex education ? That church members be banned from using the Internet ? Didn't think so.

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not so long ago, a friend of mine went to a RCI church, and the he had to prove that he was saved by speaking in tounges in front of the pastor, and the pastor had to discern if he was really saved by if it was actually proper tounges. and he also wasn't allowed to take communion until after his tounges were verified, and the rest of the time he was grilled about why every other denomination out there is wrong and RCI is the only way... not stuff read on a cult site, but first hand experience of spiritual abuse and cultic doctrines..

quote:

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Call it what you like, all I care about is what the Bible says, not what man decides to call it.

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let me be like paul for a moment, and be a 'fool'
and defend my position the way you have been recently..

I believe just on the bible , and the bible says RCI is a cult clearly, and if you disagree, don't disagree with me, but go and disagree with God, whom you clearly hate for disagreeing with me anyway..

yes i know it was foolish, but thats the point..

there are many people here who disagree with each other of periperal issues, and they get along fine,and there are cases on people being completely wrong, but its dealt with in love, i've seen friendships bloom and blossom- not just with a passive 'tolerate all' but with an active and caring love.
however the issues that always come up with you, go to the roots of the gospel, and the fruit is always a negative one..

I myself am uncertian what to do , anybody have some wisdom? things keep coming up again and again, and you cut down people again and again, forexample, anytime anyone ever says they feel God is leading them to make a game or whatever you jump in condemning their idea, and ridiculing them for believing they could ever hear from God, or that God would ever want them to do something like that.

Currently we have somebody coming to our church, who is involved in a religion i used to be involved in. His world view of course is that christianity is part of the way, and that is good, and he can stoop down into our 'closed minded world' as their is some valuable to get from christianity, but his 'wider' world view is right, and reincarnation etc..
We accept him, love him into our fellowship. And we will listen to him and talk to him about the gospel.. However if he started trying to get everybody in the church (or just a few) to believe in reincarnation and all the things that go along with the package. We'd have to do something.. for order's sake, and the sake of those weak christians, If he interupted all the sermons and whenever the oppurtinity came up kept on forcing his doctrines into the community we'd have to do something..

I feel the same has happened here... But i am unsure what to do, and also its not my authority to do anything..

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

As for 'what to do', what can *I* do ? I had no intention of discussing this stuff in this thread at all, but should I deny what I believe when people attack *me* ? It was and is my opinion that boards like this are insular little groups where people can easily become comfortable and not be challenged in their faith. FWIW I am thinking this way because it's also something I fear can happen within any church, and my church specifically, in that this is where I worship. So I was expressing something that was meant to challenge, but something I equally apply to myself and those around me. I hoped to say something that people might benefit from, and before I know it I am under attack for something I had no intention of arguing about.

quote:

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i wish that were true, its sad that you care not what the bible says, even when presented with clearcut scripture, you care more for official doctrines of your church, and interpret the bible through them, rather than the other way around.

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This is really a silly statement. I could say the same about you, because as far as I am concerned the statement applies to you and to all who would argue with the Bible on this point. I have shown my doctrine from the bible at length, and my recollection is that when I tried to get some lengthy discussion happening, everyone pretty much ran for cover, or tried to use other verses to try and prove the verses I quoted to be lies. However, there is little point in making the sort of statement you made, it's an accusation that holds no water on it's own, and I think we both agree there is no point trying to back it up by going through the windmill of your misinterpretations of 1 Cor 12-14 again, or any other passage on the subject.

I will also note that on reflection I have a pretty good idea what happened with your friend, and I'd suggest that while he is not lying, his account is one based largely on how he felt at being told that all Christians speak in tongues, and that we as a church do not judge other churches, but choose to remain seperate so our doctrine is not watered down. In any case, it is never our goal to coax people out of other churches ( although they are welcome to come ), it's far better to till new ground as it were, and see people filled with the Spirit rather than cater to people who are church hopping, which in my experience nearly always ends in grief.

I guess I should ask the question - I started this thread with the hope of generating a little controversy, but of the good sort, the sort that causes people to question themselves and to grow. I was happy to suspend the fact that a proportion of people here are not Christians, and most of the rest do not preach the Gospel, in the hope that I could still do some good and encourage some folks. However, the responses quickly pushed me into a corner, and I've ended up defending doctrines I had no intention of discussion, because I'm really a peaceable sort of guy, I see no point in arguing for the sake of it. So should I leave ? Is the presence of a person who is willing to stand up for the Gospel too abrasive for such a small, introverted group ? Seriously, all I wanted was to do some good, but it seems that some people so hate the things I have said in the past ( if because they are convicted by them, or because they oppose them so strongly in favour of a more socially acceptable Gospel, I cannot tell ), that nothing I say could ever be seen as good. Maybe I should encourage sin, and introversion, hiding from the world to discuss our games while the world burns. A little reverse psychology perhaps ?

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

You stated the following:

"I myself am uncertian what to do , anybody have some wisdom? things keep coming up again and again, and you cut down people again and again, for example, anytime anyone ever says they feel God is leading them to make a game or whatever you jump in condemning their idea, and ridiculing them for believing they could ever hear from God, or that God would ever want them to do something like that."

Matthew 7:15-16 states:

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them.

Sometimes we have to use our discernment and watch out for people like
this. I believe that in this case, perhaps the best thing to do is
to just not respond. This is what I have done even though I have previously posted clear biblical truth and got a typical disagreement type of response. I was tempted to respond but after praying about it I knew that it would serve no purpose.

I am well aware that I might receive a "bad response" from this post, but I will stick to my convictions and not respond.

In Yeshua (Jesus),

Dan

Dan: I guess it's clear from your response also that the simple fact that I have shown in the past that my beliefs are sufficiently founded on the Bible that I can defend and uphold them in the face of people trying to show that they are wrong means that no matter what I try to discuss here, I'll always be 'that heretic guy who believes in the power of God'. Maybe I should give up and shake the dust off my feet. I honestly did not set out to argue about the nature of salvation here, but it seems that folks felt the need first to attack me, and then shake their heads as to what to do when I responded.

quote:

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Spiritual Gifts

1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[1] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[2] 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Footnotes

1. 12:10 Or languages; also in verse 28
2. 12:10 Or languages; also in verse 28

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Lutherans are big on getting the entire context . . .

Reading the ENTIRE chapter will clarify things further also.

I rest my case on God's word, not my own.

†

-Edit: Fix formatting, label as NIV

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited December 12, 2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by rowanseymour:
How good a test for salvation is tongues, if Karl and I (and all the millions of non-RCI people who pray in tongues) who according to you, hate God, and so are clearly not saved, can pass it...

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In a way he's right...

We do all speak in tongues. Personally, mine's English. I know a guy who claims that he once started speaking to a person in a language that he has never learned and has never known. He only found out because the person he was talking to told him that he was speaking to him in Italian, another time it was Swahili. As I said, my tongue is English unless the LORD needs me to do otherwise, that's where it will stay.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray

The reason all Christians speak in tongues is as an aid to prayer. The rest of what you said was word games, and didn't really mean anything, nor did it disprove the scriptures. Sorry. And when someone speaks in tongues, only God understands. The Bible says that also.

Yes, you're right. I have years of experience discussing this, and as a result, it's unlikely anyone will manage to come up with an argument I have not already refuted from the Bible both online and in my personal life before. It's very hard for me not to come off as dismissive, because to me it's the same old tired thing, the same verses out of context, the same verses ignored. I am intimately familiar with the position being presented, having held to it for many years, and discussed it for many years since.

However, in this case, I had no intention, even remotely, of discussing salvation until several people jumped onto the topic and I found myself on the defensive. All of which appears to be my fault, proving what I wanted to say in the first place, people here are in a comfortable little existance where they focus on the games they think will save the world, but hiding from actually doing much for the Gospel, or at least hiding from talking about it much here beyond a little 'christianese' from time to time.

And it's Graus with a single G, just so you can find the posts. Try reading them with an open Bible, and an open heart. You may also find if you dig into the right threads, that I have always done this and changed my position on a number of things as a result of being corrected by the Word of God.

FWIW I don't really discuss the gospel online much anymore, because I realise the reason it is not effective is that people cannot see my personal conduct to see that I am not a hypocrite, like the 'christian' people they have known in the past. I'm not saying everyone here is a hypocrite, but there's enough of them to go around that most people have met and remember them. It's also hard to discuss the Gospel outside of sites that are full of unsaved 'believers', because I have a lot of respect for netiquette. And seeing as it's always better to preach to people who have given up on the Gospel, having never heard it, but equating it to their sunday school childhood, it seems to me to be a waste of time.

If I had any ulterior motive, it was to encourage people to consider how comfortable they are in their church life and how insulated from being challenged to live a Christian life. The fact that most here are not Christians is between them and God, I still felt I could generate some encouragement that may well do some good. It's funny how so-called 'christians', whose religion preaches rebirth, are unwilling to give anyone a second chance.

I do agree that it's good to bring up things, to not leave people to total comfort in their ideas. I also agree that whether Christian-themed games save people is a good question.

I think an author that considers this question is probably more likely to make a game that does save or help people. On the other hand, preaching to the choir is not such an inane practice as the usage of that phrase would suggest; a variety of thought and spiritual food is good, and of course, good games provide alternatives. I think there are many valid topics like this to consider.

However, Christian, you are not just discussing this stuff. Your posts on this thread to others are full of personal stuff. And there is personal stuff others wrote back to you. As a good rule of thumb, it just works better to talk about right and wrong rather than fool and nut, if you get my meaning. Jesus spoke strongly to people, but in His perfection, he could be *sure* He was always right about the issue when calling people a hypocrite, serpent, or sepulcher! I think it's okay for us to do so too, but only if we are really sure; otherwise it's wasting time away from the point and escalating irrelevant tension instead of focusing on meaning.

And, I'm a big fan of criticism from within. People are always assailed by the radical opposition with ludicrous stuff, and unfortunately, often they take the same attitude that develops and blow off serious, thoughtful criticism from people who want the same things they do. I've tried and tried to get through to some people and organizations at times that I respected but they were wrong about an important point, but they rather make up excuses than admit they are wrong; especially if they feel they are busy doing a lot of good (which they were) they will use that to try to ward off any criticism that they cannot deny. (Sorry to get off track a bit, but it's a very overlooked area.) The importance of good criticism just can't be underestimated.

But if you want other people to be receptive to criticism, you have to be right, you have to reasonable, and you have to also be critical of yourself too. Having changed your mind a few times during your life doesn't cut it when self-appraisal is needed right now! :-) Every one needs it.

If people have a desire to set people straight and provide criticism where it's needed in love, that's a very good thing. But if the methods and content does not actually lead to that goal in practice, there may be another, more personal motive at work. However, by purifying our motives, we can use our real desires for a lot of good.

As far as speaking in tongues go, it's pretty hard to have any controversy; 1 Cor 12 says that different spritual gifts are given to different people to complement each other and goes on to answer potential questions with an analogy of the body and its parts. The only controversy is when there is nobody speaking in tongues, ever, within memory; that suggests something important may be missing. Everyone always speaking in tongues all the time might suggest an influence there that should not be!

Curry

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As far as speaking in tongues go, it's pretty hard to have any controversy; 1 Cor 12 says that different spritual gifts are given to different people to complement each other and goes on to answer potential questions with an analogy of the body and its parts. The only controversy is when there is nobody speaking in tongues, ever, within memory; that suggests something important may be missing. Everyone always speaking in tongues all the time might suggest an influence there that should not be!

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Seeing as I don't want to labour this point, which has been brought up by others, I would instead encourage you to read my previous posts on 1 Cor 12-14, and the way to read these verses together in context, instead of missing the fact that the body analogy applies to a church meeting, when the body comes together. I would find it hard not to add that if you think 1 Cor 12 says only some Christians speak in tongues, you must accept that you also think it says only some have faith.

As to your other points, I think it's a waste of time my posting here further, because every has made up their mind to judge me and reject anything I say. I started this thread precisely because these ARE issues I have been thinking about in my own walk with God, and which I am seeking to ensure I am mindful of continuously in how I choose to live my life in Christ. I don't see how I could have in any way given any other implication, because the truth is that the thought convicted me first, and then I sought to share it.

To Everyone here,
This may sound trite, but I don't mean it that way at all: I don't care what anyone here believes. God is the judge of each one of us - whether we believe in Him or we don't. Understand that my statement has nothing to do with correcting error in doctrine or testing the spirit of others who claim to be of like faith. There is a clear distinction between judgment, condemnation, and reproof. If you have trouble discerning someone else's intent look first at your own self to see if you are in error and search the Scriptures for truth. It is a simple process but one that is so easily overlooked in the heat of emotional and personal debate.
To be point blank honest with everyone here: If you fail to forgive others then you will not be forgiven. That is a Biblical truth. If someone takes a step of spiritual growth and we judge them based on negative attitudes developed from past experiences (a) how will that person experience the love of Christ from you, (b) how will that person grow in Christ through your fellowship, and (c) how can you be a minister of God's love, grace and mercy? I include myself when I challenge the body of Christ on things like this. I am not above you or anyone else, nor am I above God; I certainly don't want people thinking I am.
In all manner of speech we should strive to be peacable and generous, uplifting and courteous. We are to be building blocks to others, not stumbling blocks.

In the purest of God's Love,
Matt

quote:

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Originally posted by christian:
I wonder how many years I have to wait before my actions when I was first online stop counting for more than my actions today. There was a period where I could not see past the fact that people claimed to want to follow Jesus, and honestly thought that if I stuck with it, such a person would surely mix a little faith with a little English comprehension and thus become a Christian.

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In my opinion your style and tone is aggressive, arrogant, and angry and does more to alienate potential Christians than it does to lead them to Christ. Whether your views are right or wrong is irrelevant to that point - there are better ways to get your opinions across.

All I ask of you is to step back and try and see the way you come across to other people. You may not care what other people think of you, but if it's affecting your witness, shouldn't you? That doesn't mean you should stop explaining to people what you believe and why you believe it, but what good is it if your manner drives them further away?

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In the process I got caught in a lot of endless discussion that I now regret. I also was foolish enough to think that a board with 'christian' in the name should have the Gospel represented. Two people were in fact saved, which makes it all worthwhile, but if you look at the same group today, since I left it has become a stomping ground for American cross posts, and athiest who are so pathetic they spend their life heckling anyone looking to discuss Christianity there.

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Yes, you're right. I have years of experience discussing this, and as a result, it's unlikely anyone will manage to come up with an argument I have not already refuted from the Bible both online and in my personal life before.

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But greater minds than yours or mine with many more years of education and bible study under their belts have come to different conclusions than you. Does that make them right and you wrong? Not necessarily, but your arrogance in this matter is truly astounding.

Personally, I'm keeping my mind open to both interpretations. I'm reading the Bible myself and praying about it. So far I have found no Biblical reason to believe tongues are MANDATORY to be saved. That may or may not change as my Bible study proceeds, but nothing you have ever posted on the subject has, to my knowledge, proved or refuted anything.

I encourage everyone here to do the same. Don't be intimidated into believing a particular doctrine, research it for yourself by reading the Bible (and more than one translation) and Bible study guides and discussing it with your pastor and other Christians. And above all else, pray about it.

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It's very hard for me not to come off as dismissive, because to me it's the same old tired thing, the same verses out of context, the same verses ignored.

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I am intimately familiar with the position being presented, having held to it for many years, and discussed it for many years since.

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However, in this case, I had no intention, even remotely, of discussing salvation until several people jumped onto the topic and I found myself on the defensive.

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All of which appears to be my fault, proving what I wanted to say in the first place, people here are in a comfortable little existance where they focus on the games they think will save the world, but hiding from actually doing much for the Gospel, or at least hiding from talking about it much here beyond a little 'christianese' from time to time.

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Nobody here thinks they are going to make a game that will save the world. I doubt anyone here seriously believes that their games will save anyone at all (which would be silly, since only Jesus saves). But if you're going to do something creative, what's wrong with trying to promote the gospel message with what you do? Personally I think Christians should strive to glorify God in everything that they do, including making video games if that happens to be their job or hobby.

And I see nobody hiding from discussing the Gospel here at CCN. Or must every discussion include the topic of tongues before it can be considered more than a "little 'christianese'"?

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FWIW I don't really discuss the gospel online much anymore, because I realise the reason it is not effective is that people cannot see my personal conduct

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I'm not saying everyone here is a hypocrite, but there's enough of them to go around that most people have met and remember them.

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It's also hard to discuss the Gospel outside of sites that are full of unsaved 'believers'

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If I had any ulterior motive, it was to encourage people to consider how comfortable they are in their church life and how insulated from being challenged to live a Christian life.

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The fact that most here are not Christians is between them and God

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I still felt I could generate some encouragement that may well do some good.

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It's funny how so-called 'christians', whose religion preaches rebirth, are unwilling to give anyone a second chance.

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You have decided that your interpretation, your personal opinion, is the Truth(tm) and that's that, it's not open for discussion (unless people want to agree with you), period, end of story, zip, done, kaput, fin.

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I just want you to stop picking fights with people over your pet 'heresy'.

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This is what *I* mean. I have believed for years the things that are presented to me here and elsewhere, found them to be untrue, considered them again in the light of discussion, but every time someone once again misappropriates 1 Cor 12 to prove 1 Cor 14 a lie, I must again consider if I was mistaken the other 14,000 times I took 1 Cor 14 at it's word, and instead believed a doctrine where both chapters are true ? I wasn't saying that what people say is dismissed by me out of hand, I was asking how often I need to reconsider the same arguments, the same statements that plainly are not true from the Bible ( I have commented several times, for example, that 1 Cor 12 in your eyes says that not all Christians have faith. I *know* what you would say if you bothered to respond, that faith in the Bible is different to faith, 1 Cor 12 is talking about special faith. How often must I think about that ? It's a farce, an addition to the Gospel, which cannot be proven from the verses because it's not there. We all have faith in my world, and we don't in yours. No word games will change that. )

On the other hand, you obviously are exempt from EVER considering anything I say, it's my 'pet heresy'. This sort of hypocrisy, and flat out hatred ( why is it that I am the one bringing it up in your eyes, when I didn't ? Why is it a heresy, because you say so ? ), is one reason that I feel that anything I say has become a waste of time here.

So to reiterate my point: would it be fair to state that everyone has faith but not everyone has faith of the same measure? and that the Spirit gives the gifts according to the measure of one's faith?

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Surely the reason we should not think we're better than anyone else is that we've all been given the *same* measure, seeing as God is no respecter of persons ? We're saved through faith, it is a gift of God. How can it differ ?

Your choice of reference indicates faith is given to every man, but not that it is given fully or even equally. The only passage I found that speaks of the Spirit giving to someone without measure is this: John 3:34.
"For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." (KJV) The context is John the Baptist speaking of Jesus Christ. Look at the commentary references (Matthew Henry) for more info:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?bo ok=joh&chapter=3#Joh3_34

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryConcise/mhc-con.cgi?book =joh&chapter=3#Joh3_34

Another passage that is similar to your response to my initial question is Ephesians 4:7: "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ." (KJV)
Again, refer to the commentary for information:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?boo k=eph&chapter=4#Eph4_7

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryConcise/mhc-con.cgi?book= eph&chapter=4#Eph4_7

For sake of conversation here are the commentary links on Romans 12:3:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?boo k=ro&chapter=12#Ro12_3

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryConcise/mhc-con.cgi?book= ro&chapter=12#Ro12_3
*****

Now I have some questions for you in all seriousness.
a) If faith is given in full how can it be increased?
b) What does 1 Corinthians 12:11 mean ("But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." KJV)?
c) Are the gifts of the Spirit bestowed over time or all at once immediately upon salvation?

It is my belief that a person can experience all of the gifts of the Spirit. However, as Jesus illustrated in a parable, to whom much is given much will be required. I believe that Christians today are out of touch with the power of God because they lack the faith to receive the gifts of the Spirit. I believe that many Christians think they have the full power of the Spirit because they are saved (I was of this mindset in the past), but are really weak in the faith almost to the point of being nothing more than newborn believers. Anyway, these are just some things to ponder and some things I seriously wanted to point out and ask about. I do not intend to mock anyone's beliefs or ridicule anyone's faith. I am honestly seeking to strengthen the faith of anyone who wants it, with the help of God of course.

God Bless,
Matt

[edit: reply to Christian's questions]

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Surely the reason we should not think we're better than anyone else is that we've all been given the *same* measure, seeing as God is no respecter of persons ?

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We're saved through faith, it is a gift of God. How can it differ ?

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[This message has been edited by nfektious (edited December 15, 2002).]

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a) If faith is given in full how can it be increased?
b) What does 1 Corinthians 12:11 mean ("But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." KJV)?
c) Are the gifts of the Spirit bestowed over time or all at once immediately upon salvation?

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a. It can't. We build ourselves up the THE faith when we pray in the Spirit ( in Jude 20-21 ).

b. The one Spirit inspires the use of all the gifts within a particular meeting. We use faith when we decide to step out and deliver a prophecy, we also use faith when we decide to ask the elders of the church to pray for us.

c. The ability to use all the gifts is immediate, as is the ability to grow all the fruits. If we use those things is up to us.

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We shouldn't think we're better than others because we are all equal in God's eyes.

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God not being a respecter of persons does not just mean that we are equal before Him, but also that He treats us equally. Remember the parable of the workers who all recieved a penny.

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Faith is a gift of God, but we all come to God in different ways and from different experiences.

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We *should* all come to the same God, although our experiences differ, there is one faith, one Spirit, one baptism, etc.

The rest of the passage I refered to speaks of gifts which need to be present for the benefit of the church.

Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

Rom 12:7 Or ministry, [let us wait] on [our] ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, [let him do it] with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Rom 12:9 [Let] love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Rom 12:10 [Be] kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

These are gifts God gives to the church, there is a similar list in ( from memory ) Ephesians. Not everyone will teach, not everyone will minister, not everyone will prophecy. As you say yourself, it's not that they cannot, but that they do not. It's important to note that the church cannot function without these things though, so God will make sure these needs are met for the sake of the body.

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a) If faith is given in full how can it be increased?

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a. It can't. We build ourselves up the THE faith when we pray in the Spirit ( in Jude 20-21 ).

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Jude 20-21

NIV: But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.

NASB: But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

NLT: But you, dear friends, must continue to build your lives on the foundation of your holy faith. And continue to pray as you are directed by the Holy Spirit.

KJV: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

The message I get from all 4 of these translations is:

(CONTINUE building yourself up in holy faith) AND (CONTINUE praying in the Holy Spirit)

you are claiming that it means:

(CONTINUE building yourself up in holy faith) BY (praying in tongues)

Now can you see why we all get a bit confused when you make claims about backing up your beliefs from scripture ?

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

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Now can you see why we all get a bit confused when you make claims about backing up your beliefs from scripture ?

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Might I ask if you did any research to see which of these translations comes closest in intent to the original text ?

Even if you're right, and the Bible is directing both as seperate issues, you're simply diflecting attention from the more important question - how do we do what the Bible tells us to here ? How do you pray in the Holy Spirit ?

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Originally posted by Christian:
Might I ask if you did any research to see which of these translations comes closest in intent to the original text ?

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As usual the KJV looks the most like the Greek, but whether its semantically closer than the other translations, is a question for someone who knows more Greek than I.

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Even if you're right, and the Bible is directing both as seperate issues, you're simply diflecting attention from the more important question - how do we do what the Bible tells us to here ? How do you pray in the Holy Spirit ?

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I'm deflecting attention from some more important issue??? I was only responding to your assertion:

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a. It can't. We build ourselves up the THE faith when we pray in the Spirit ( in Jude 20-21 ).

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Its clear that you would like to read Jude 20 as a commandment to all to pray in tongues. First problem with that is that it is directed at a particular group of people, not everyone. Second problem is that it's in the present tense. It would be like me saying:

"But you CCN members, making cool games, coding in C++."

It is neither a commandment to CCN members to write games, or use C++.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments. 2 Timothy 4:13

Am I dodging scripture when I don't bring Paul his cloak. Of course not.

And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 1 Corinthians 11:5

Do the women of your church have to have their heads covered? I hope not.

I am trying to make the point that you can't turn scripture which is observations about particular people or groups of people, into imperatives for us all. Would you agree ?

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

And why don't the women of your church cover their heads?

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

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I clearly have not met Paul, and clearly you're going to argue this silliness instead of responding to the core point, that this is completely different to instruction given to all in a particular church which is obviously instruction that applies to all of Gods people.

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The instruction for women to cover their heads when prophecizing was given to all in a particular church - so why don't you apply it in yours, if according to you this means it's applicable to all of God's people?

Try answering my question instead of calling it silly. I promise before God I am not trying to attack you.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

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Originally posted by christian:
I have believed for years the things that are presented to me here and elsewhere, found them to be untrue, considered them again in the light of discussion

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but every time someone once again misappropriates 1 Cor 12 to prove 1 Cor 14 a lie

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How has it been misappropriated? Who said 1st Cor 14 is a lie? Who has even implied it? I see absolutely no conflict between 1st Cor 12 and 14. Where do you?

Have you actually read 1st Cor 14 yourself? Here, let's go through it now (ASV version, but the other versions I've checked don't change the meaning) and look for any reference as to why you think you aren't saved unless you speak in tongues:

1 Follow after love; yet desire earnestly spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men edification, and exhortation, and consolation. 4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 Now I would have you all speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 But now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophesying, or of teaching? 7 Even things without life, giving a voice, whether pipe or harp, if they give not a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain voice, who shall prepare himself for war? 9 So also ye, unless ye utter by the tongue speech easy to understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and no [kind] is without signification. 11 If then I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be to him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh will be a barbarian unto me.

12 So also ye, since ye are zealous of spiritual [gifts], seek that ye may abound unto the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else if thou bless with the spirit, how shall he that filleth the place of the unlearned say the Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all: 19 howbeit in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

20 Brethren, be not children in mind: yet in malice be ye babes, but in mind be men. 21 In the law it is written, By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers will I speak unto this people; and not even thus will they hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to the unbelieving: but prophesying [is for a sign], not to the unbelieving, but to them that believe.

23 If therefore the whole church be assembled together and all speak with tongues, and there come in men unlearned or unbelieving, will they not say that ye are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one believing or unlearned, he is reproved by all, he is judged by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are made manifest; and so he will fall down on his face and worship God, declaring that God is among you indeed.

26 What is it then, brethren? When ye come together, each one hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27 If any man speaketh in a tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most three, and [that] in turn; and let one interpret: 28 but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

29 And let the prophets speak [by] two or three, and let the others discern. 30 But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first keep silence. 31 For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets; 33 for God is not [a God] of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, 34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

36 What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone? 37 If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord. 38 But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39 Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 But let all things be done decently and in order.

Paul's point is that tongues (like every gift of the Spirit) is something we should all desire, but he's pretty clear in his opinion that it's not necessarily the greatest gift. And nowhere in this chapter does he say that anyone _must_ have this gift, or that all true Christians have this gift.

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I must again consider if I was mistaken the other 14,000 times I took 1 Cor 14 at it's word, and instead believed a doctrine where both chapters are true ?

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I wasn't saying that what people say is dismissed by me out of hand, I was asking how often I need to reconsider the same arguments

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the same statements that plainly are not true from the Bible ( I have commented several times, for example, that 1 Cor 12 in your eyes says that not all Christians have faith.

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God has given to every man a measure of faith. It seems clear, and without contradiction when read in context, that what he is referring to in 1st Cor 12 is an extra measure of faith.

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I *know* what you would say if you bothered to respond, that faith in the Bible is different to faith, 1 Cor 12 is talking about special faith.

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How often must I think about that ? It's a farce, an addition to the Gospel, which cannot be proven from the verses because it's not there. We all have faith in my world, and we don't in yours. No word games will change that. )

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I find it interesting that when you start to lose ground in an argument (both here and on Usenet) you fall back to accusing people of playing "word games" and trying to "trap" you. I'm not playing word games here. The Bible is pretty clear on these points from what I can see.

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On the other hand, you obviously are exempt from EVER considering anything I say, it's my 'pet heresy'.

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My point (originally) wasn't even whether you were wrong or right, only that your arrogance in how you express your opinions does more harm than good. I hope and pray that I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if your attitude has resulted in more people shunning Christianity than it has resulted in saved souls. But that's between you and God.

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This sort of hypocrisy, and flat out hatred ( why is it that I am the one bringing it up in your eyes, when I didn't ?

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And no, you didn't bring it up _in_this_thread_, but you've brought it up many times before, and it's not a stretch to guess you were heading that way based on your previous posts. Perhaps it was unfair for us to make that assumption, and for that I apologise. But we haven't put words in your mouth - you do hold this belief do you not?

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Why is it a heresy, because you say so ? )

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is one reason that I feel that anything I say has become a waste of time here.

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Why? Just because many (most?) of us disagree with you on your non-Biblical (at least until you provide some Biblical support) view of speaking in tongues, you assume that we'll disagree with _anything_ you say?

As far as I can tell, there are only two topics which people disagree with you on in any significant way. The first is the topic of tongues being a requirement for salvation. The second would be the whole British Israelitism doctrine that your church espouses (which I assume you also believe in, correct me if I'm wrong).

Other than your views on those two topics, I think I've pretty much agreed with other things you've had to say. You're obviously an intelligent person with plenty to share and offer here. But I won't stand by and let you sew seeds of doubt that have no Biblical foundation without speaking out.

[This message has been edited by Believer (edited December 17, 2002).]

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The number of years you've believed something is completely irrelevant as to its "trueness" (that applies to everyone, regardless of their view on this topic). You say you've "found them to be untrue", yet you offer nothing to support this. Is it true simply because your church holds it to be so? What _really_ counts is what the Bible says on the matter.

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Of course ( that is, of course time is irrelevant ). My point is that I've spent a lot of time considering this. It's true because the Bible says so, and God has backed His Word with signs following.

My support has been offered many times, and as I said to start with, this is not the discussion I was hoping to have.

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How has it been misappropriated? Who said 1st Cor 14 is a lie? Who has even implied it? I see absolutely no conflict between 1st Cor 12 and 14. Where do you?

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Nowhere at all, it is the Word of God.

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Have you actually read 1st Cor 14 yourself?

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LOL - so often because of the web that I sometimes wish I could find a way to talk about the rest of the Bible. I can probably quote most of it.

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Here, let's go through it now (ASV version, but the other versions I'e checked don't change the meaning) and look for any reference as to why you think you aren't saved unless you speak in tongues:

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Well, that's not what 1 Cor 14 is about, my point about contradiction is simply that 1 Cor 14 says we all CAN speak in tongues, a fact that people ignore and get stuck on 1 Cor 12 says not all DO ( in the context of a meeting ). But I'mm happy with whatever version you choose.

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1 Follow after love; yet desire earnestly spiritual [gifts], butrather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh notunto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit hespeaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men edification,and exhortation, and consolation. 4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifiethhimself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 Now I would have youall speak with tongues, but rather that ye should prophesy: and greater ishe that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret,that the church may receive edifying.

Seems pretty clear in the first 5 verses that the gift of prophesy is _at_least_ as important as tongues, but there's no reference to tongues being a key to salvation. Let's continue...

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It's not about that, the people being written to were saved. You'll find that Paul soon says that in the context of a church meeting, prophecy is BETTER than tongues.

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6 But now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, whatshall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or ofknowledge, or of prophesying, or of teaching? 7 Even things without life,giving a voice, whether pipe or harp, if they give not a distinction in thesounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpetgive an uncertain voice, who shall prepare himself for war? 9 So also ye,unless ye utter by the tongue speech easy to understood, how shall it beknown what is spoken? for ye will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, itmay be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and no [kind] is withoutsignification. 11 If then I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be tohim that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh will be a barbarian untome.

Here he's saying, I believe, that tongues are not the method by which we witness or instruct others, since naturally they can't understand them. The gift of tongues is, generally, a private thing between you and God, except in the situation where someone is available to interpret. But nothing about tongues being a requirement. Carrying on...

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Puh-leaz tell me you're not going to stop every three verses to remind me that 1 Cor 14 was not written to tell people how to be saved. But we agree that tongues are between you and God. So what are they for ? Why do we speak in tongues to God ?

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12 So also ye, since ye are zealous of spiritual [gifts], seek that yemay abound unto the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him thatspeaketh in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in atongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is itthen? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understandingalso: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understandingalso. 16 Else if thou bless with the spirit, how shall he that filleth theplace of the unlearned say the Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing heknoweth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but theother is not edified.

Same comments as above.

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Wow - I hoped for more comments, this bit is vital.

1. A person who speaks in tongues can interpret if they pray to.
2. Tongues is how we pray in the Spirit.

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18 I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all: 19 howbeit inthe church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I mightinstruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

He's thankful for the gift of tongues that has been given to him, apparently a double helping from the sound of it. But he says he'd rather speak 5 words in the common language that would teach people, than to speak 10,000 words in tongues.

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No, that's not it at all. He is more thankful than all in Corinth that he speaks in tongues. Seeing as he is writing and telling them to speak in tongues less in their meetings, it's obvious the use of the gift is under their control. Therefore, PAul does not know how often they speak in tongues, except that they do too much of it in meetings. So how can he claim to have 'more tongues' or speak in tongues more than they do ?

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20 Brethren, be not children in mind: yet in malice be ye babes, butin mind be men. 21 In the law it is written, By men of strange tongues andby the lips of strangers will I speak unto this people; and not even thuswill they hear me, saith the Lord.

Still nothing to indicate that tongues is a necessity...

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Do you mind if I just skip every time you say this ? 1 Cor 14 makes clear that all in Corinth spoke in tongues, and furhter builds on the context of 1 Cor 12. 1 Cor 12 contains more about all Christians speaking in tongues directly than 1 Cor 14, where it's more about how Paul indicates that all could.

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22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but tothe unbelieving: but prophesying [is for a sign], not to the unbelieving,but to them that believe.

Could this be the bit you're latching on to? That tongues are a sign to non-believers? No problem with that, but it doesn't say anything at all about all believers speaking on tongues...

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Not really, although it is true that the reason tongues is a sign to unbelievers is because believers speak in tongues.

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23 If therefore the whole church be assembled together and all speakwith tongues, and there come in men unlearned or unbelieving, will they notsay that ye are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one believingor unlearned, he is reproved by all, he is judged by all; 25 the secrets ofhis heart are made manifest; and so he will fall down on his face and worship God, declaring that God is among you indeed.

He's basically saying here that if everyone in the church is speaking in tongues, and an un-believer walks in, he's going to think you're all nuts! Hardly an effective witness.

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I agree. But how is it possible unless they all spoke in tongues ?

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But if he walks in and everyone with the gift of prophecy tells him exactly what's been troubling him, he's going to have little choice but to see that their faith is real.

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This is true, and yet must be seen in light of prophecy being a sign to believers.

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26 What is it then, brethren? When ye come together, each one hath apsalm, hath a teaching, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

So when we get together, some folks will sing, some folks will preach, some folks will prophesy, some will speak in tongues, and some will interpret those tongues. Sounds like a good time to me! But it doesn't say everyone will do all those things... in fact it seems to reiterate that different people will bring different gifts to the table.

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Yet above the people who spoke in tongues were to interpret. You're inserting the word 'or' between each comma because that's what you believe. It is not there. Each of us can do any of these things, yet the church must be run in a way which is in order.

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27 If any man speaketh in a tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the mostthree, and [that] in turn; and let one interpret: 28 but if there be nointerpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Interesting...

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Yes, but what do you make of it ? Paul has said if you speak in tongues you can pray to interpret, so where is the problem ? All Christians not only *can*, but also *have* spoken in tongues. All Christians *can* interpret, but not all *have*.

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29 And let the prophets speak [by] two or three, and let the othersdiscern. 30 But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the firstkeep silence. 31 For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, andall may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of the prophets are subject to theprophets; 33 for God is not [a God] of confusion, but of peace. As in allthe churches of the saints, 34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. 35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

Some interesting stuff in those verses, but that's for another thread (any ladies here?). Nothing about tongues in there though...

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Wow - you skipped more critical stuff. Verse 31 says as plain as day that we can all prophecy, and verse 32 says plain as day that our use of God's gifts of the Spirit is under our control. So we can all prophecy, we can all interpret, we can all speak in tongues. Oh, we also can all pray for wisdom ( James says so ), discern spiritual things, pray to be healed, and I guarentee that all Christians have faith. That is the point, people misappropriate 1 Cor 12 to prove something that 1 Cor 14 proves it simply does not say.

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36 What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone? 37 If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, thatthey are the commandment of the Lord. 38 But if any man is ignorant, let himbe ignorant. 39 Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 But let all things be done decently andin order.

So we shouldn't prohibit or discourage people from speaking in tongues. No problem there. So here we are at the end of the chapter, and nothing that was said contradicts 1st Cor 12 or the view that tongues are not necessary for salvation.

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It's funny that having spent three chapters telling them to stop speaking in tongues all at once, he provides balance and says 'forbid not tongues'. He says 'seek prophecy', but not 'seek tongues'. No Christian needs to seek tongues, by definition.

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Paul's point is that tongues (like every gift of the Spirit) is something we should all desire, but he's pretty clear in his opinion that it's not necessarily the greatest gift. And nowhere in this chapter does he say that anyone _must_ have this gift, or that all true Christians have this gift.

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Why would he ? The Bible does not seek to make tongues a punishment or bad thing, we MUST have it, or else. It just tells us about all the gifts of the Spirit and expects us to believe that if God gives it, it is worth having. But seeing as Paul builds up prophecy ( in a meeting ) and tells all to seek it, don't you think that if 1 Cor 14:31 is a lie, and not all can prophecy, that Paul is setting people up to be disappointed, and the prophets to lord it over the others who, in your world, cannot have this gift ?

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Yes, I'd say you were mistaken, since there's nothing in there at all about tongues being a requirement. Not in any Bible version I've looked at, including the KJV. There simply isn't any conflict between the two.

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No there is no conflict, I never claimed there was. I claimed that what most people claim 1 Cor 12 says is contradicted by 1 Cor 14, as we have now seen.

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One explicitly states that tongues is _a_ gift that _some_ folks are given. The other says it's a good gift to have, but prophecy is better (from the point of view of edifying the church body).

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And so it is ( in the context of a meeting ). I see we agree that a church meeting is the context 1 Cor 12-14 addresses.

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Plainly not true? For someone who's so sure of that, you should at least be able to back that up with scripture. You _say_ you've done so, but I haven't seen it yet.

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Would you like me to post on 1 Cor 12 ? I've done so before, but I didn't here because I was trying very hard to movethe discussion away from where Rowan has been driving it.

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God has given to every man a measure of faith. It seems clear, and without contradiction when read in context, that what he is referring to in 1st Cor 12 is an extra measure of faith.

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An extra measure that is not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible ? An extra measure that we must invent in order to get out of the pickle that the presence of faith in 1 Cor 12's list puts us ? Well, James says God will give to all liberally who pray for wisdom, so how can it be claimed from 1 Cor 12 that only some have wisdom, or that some have an 'extra measure' ? The Bible says abundance is offered to all. ( BTW I can do this from the Bible with all nine of the 1 Cor 12 gifts, ALL of them are offered to all Christians in the Bible ).

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Bzzzt. Wrong again I'm afraid. I don't claim that it's _different_ faith, just a larger portion, which is backed up by other scriptures that talk about different measures and porportions of faith.

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Semantics. Actually, the Bible verse about the measure of faith is about us all having the SAME measure, not that God withholds the thing that can save from some and not others. God is no respecter of persons and does not give with partiality.

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How can you possibly come to that conclusion? The Bible clearly says that everyone is given a measure of faith. 1st Cor 12 does not contradict that. I have not contradicted that.

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Let's check it out then.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The Bible goes on to talk of people having different roles in the church, I think of the 1 Cor 12 gifts as the things an individual needs, and Rom 12 ( and also Ephesians from memory ) to list gifts the church needs. The latter, God will ensure exist among His people, the former we have the ability to choose to seek or not, with the exception that tongues is also the manifestation of the Spirit given to every man, in 1 Cor 12.

Why should we not think of ourselves as higher than others ? Because we all have the same measure of faith.

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I find it interesting that when you start to lose ground in an argument (both here and on Usenet) you fall back to accusing people of playing "word games" and trying to "trap" you. I'm not playing word games here. The Bible is pretty clear on these points from what I can see.

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It seems I have a fan. It is often the case that these discussions get stuck in semantics and divorced from the power of God. However, at this point I'd say you've simply misunderstood a few verses, and also what I was trying to say in the first place. One has to wonder if you've read my usenet posts in the past, how you can claim that I've not quoted the Bible to back my views. Usenet is full of lengthy posts from the Bible from me.

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How do you figure that? I'm not exempt from considering anything that you or anyone else says.

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Because that's how others speak to me.

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In fact I've spent a lot of time considering what you, specifically, have said on this board since the first time you posted. More than once you've had good solid things to say that I am in complete agreement with. This particular topic is not one of those things though.
My point (originally) wasn't even whether you were wrong or right, only that your arrogance in how you express your opinions does more harm than good. I hope and pray that I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if your attitude has resulted in more people shunning Christianity than it has resulted in saved souls. But that's between you and God.

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Well, given that I find myself mostly talking to unsaved believers online, it's not really an effective way to judge my witness offline. The very nature of the Gospel offends people in a place like this, no matter how I put it.

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I don't hate you, not in the least. I can't speak for the others here, but I doubt that any of them hate you (and if they do then they are wrong for doing so). How about you? Do you hate everyone who disagrees with you on this or any other topic?

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Of course not, how could I ? I admit that being constantly heckled has lead me to say some things I wish I had not, especially on usenet, but if I hated the people here, I would call them all my brothers and just talk about programming. I used to hold the views that you are espousing, and I praise God for the person who argued with me for six months before I decided to let God decide. I actually have a wife, two kids, a job I love ( programming ), side coding projects and a church life I like to maintain in terms of fellowship. I'm not making a martyr of myself, I don't want applause and I'm not going to send the hat around, but why would I bother with the sort of treatment that some people give me ( again, especially on usenet ), if I did not love you and want to share the Gospel ?

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And no, you didn't bring it up _in_this_thread_, but you've brought it up many times before, and it's not a stretch to guess you were heading that way based on your previous posts. Perhaps it was unfair for us to make that assumption, and for that I apologise. But we haven't put words in your mouth - you do hold this belief do you not?

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1. Of course I do, it's what the Bible says.
2. It's quite a while since I posted at all, and I *honestly* came to the conclusion that it's easy to get comfortable in church life and forget to be challenged by the Gospel, and wanted to discuss it as a conclusion that helped *me*, that applied to *me*. I won't deny that I would hope that such a challenge might lead to a soul being saved, but God gives the increase, and direct discussion of the core Gospel has proven itself to be utterly worthless online most of the time ( although two souls have been saved through God's testimony in me on usenet, quite a few years ago before it was taken over by weirdos and angry athiests ).

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I never called it a heresy. I'm saying that _you_ treat it as a heresy (that people who don't believe speaking in tongues is necessary for being saved).

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I don't believe I was addressing you in the post prior, so why are you taking everything I said to someone who IS treating me like this as if I said it personally to you ?

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Why? Just because many (most?) of us disagree with you on your non-Biblical (at least until you provide some Biblical support) view of speaking in tongues, you assume that we'll disagree with _anything_ you say?

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Well, it seems to be the case. If someone else had posted the point I've been trying to make, do you think it would have been argued over like this ? Do you think Rowan would fight the point that earthly charity is not going to save souls on it's own if you said it ?

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As far as I can tell, there are only two topics which people disagree with you on in any significant way. The first is the topic of tongues being a requirement for salvation. The second would be the whole British Israelitism doctrine that your church espouses (which I assume you also believe in, correct me if I'm wrong).

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I probably don't believe what you think BI is. That topic is so widely misrepresented that I don't even bother to discuss it.

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Other than your views on those two topics, I think I've pretty much agreed with other things you've had to say. You're obviously an intelligent person with plenty to share and offer here. But I won't stand by and let you sew seeds of doubt that have no Biblical foundation without speaking out.

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I'm not trying to sow seeds of anything. I wasn't even trying to discuss this, because this forum is kinda dead, the odds of anyone here not having already rejected the Gospel when presented with copious scripture seems low.

But if you want me to do 1 Cor 12 again, I'm willing.

Christian

1Cr 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.

1Cr 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with [her] head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1Cr 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

1Cr 11:12 For as the woman [is] of the man, even so [is] the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

1Cr 11:13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

1Cr 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.

1Cr 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

The key is the last bit, Paul is talking about the customs of the church. At one point in time it was considered bad for women to have short hair, and for men to have long. Nowadays that is not such a big deal, and the issue Paul presents is never more than cultural, it is never explained in terms of being wrong in God's eyes. This is completely different to the body of scripture which indicates a woman is not to preach or be in a teaching role in the church.

I have often wondered why the gifts that were so evident in the lives of the Apostles seemed to have disappeared from Christianity. After reading over this discussion I think I understand why and how that happened.

It is very important that we as believers don't focus so intently on a single verse of Scripture because the Scriptures as a whole are to be applied. I think this is evident especially in the writings to the Corinthians; why else would Paul have to write so much about one thing if they weren't so focused on it to the point that the rest of the matters that are necessary for living and being like Christ were ignored?

It seems to me that the arguments here have taken shape because of the wrong attitudes toward others and thus misjudgment and miscommunication. Anger and Righteous Indignation are two completely different things and present themselves in totally opposite ways. I won't go any further to speak toward anyone in particular but I will ask everyone who has driven this conversation into the ground to ponder exactly what the issue is. Is it with a person? Is it with an element that relates to living the Christian life? or is it some other motivation that really doesn't belong in your heart?

There are so many elements that reflect the reason for this debate and why it has been around for so many years. True, Scripture indicates that the gifts will only last for a time, but who are we to say when the gifts of the Spirit are to end?
I grew up under heavy Baptist influences. Fortunately I have seen how flawed the generalized teachings of the churches I was in were, and I have been able to open my eyes to the complete truth of Scripture. I no longer claim to espouse any denominational views because of the disorder that that creates. This whole debate is a perfect example of that disorder.
Is this here what Christianity is? For those who have forgotten, that is the point of this thread's existence - to discuss what it means to be a Christian and how that is evidenced.
To be honest the majority of the examples presented here don't encourage anyone to seek Christ. So in that regard all I can say to everyone involved is KNOCK IT OFF! Be civil! Be kind! Be courteous! Be like Christ!
If you don't know what that means then you need to evaluate your spiritual condition and see where you stand.

May God have mercy and grace on all of you. I love you all and I forgive you all for your actions - now and in the past. I enjoy coming here to discuss issues that are important. But the truth remains, somethings are better left unspoken, unwritten and not even thought about. Repentance is in order and I hope that any response to my words will be peaceful, positive and proactive.

God Bless the Body of Christ and make us fervent witnesses - in word, in thought, in deed - of the Truth of God's Love!
Matt

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True, Scripture indicates that the gifts will only last for a time, but who are we to say when the gifts of the Spirit are to end?

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1 Cor 13 tells us - when we see Him face to face and know as we are known.

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Is this here what Christianity is? For those who have forgotten, that is the point of this thread's existence - to discuss what it means to be a Christian and how that is evidenced.

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Allow me to briefly erupt in spontaneous applause. That is exactly what I wanted to discuss. My thought was very much that if indeed we claim to be the light of the world, we need to think about how other people percieve us, will they see us that way ? How do the people in your work circle ( for example ) percieve you as any different to a Muslim or a JW ?

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Well, that's not what 1 Cor 14 is about, my point about contradiction is simply that 1 Cor 14 says we all CAN speak in tongues

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I said:
Seems pretty clear in the first 5 verses that the gift of prophesy is _at_least_ as important as tongues, but there's no reference to tongues being a key to salvation. Let's continue...

You said:
It's not about that, the people being written to were saved. You'll find that Paul soon says that in the context of a church meeting, prophecy is BETTER than tongues.

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But we agree that tongues are between you and God.

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So what are they for ? Why do we speak in tongues to God ?

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1. A person who speaks in tongues can interpret if they pray to.

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2. Tongues is how we pray in the Spirit.

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I wrote:
He's thankful for the gift of tongues that has been given to him, apparently a double helping from the sound of it. But he says he'd rather speak 5 words in the common language that would teach people, than to speak 10,000 words in tongues.

You wrote:
No, that's not it at all. He is more thankful than all in Corinth that he speaks in tongues. Seeing as he is writing and telling them to speak in tongues less in their meetings, it's obvious the use of the gift is under their control. Therefore, PAul does not know how often they speak in tongues, except that they do too much of it in meetings. So how can he claim to have 'more tongues' or speak in tongues more than they do ?

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1 Cor 14 makes clear that all in Corinth spoke in tongues

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and furhter builds on the context of 1 Cor 12. 1 Cor 12 contains more about all Christians speaking in tongues directly than 1 Cor 14, where it's more about how Paul indicates that all could.

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Not really, although it is true that the reason tongues is a sign to unbelievers is because believers speak in tongues.

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I wrote:
He's basically saying here that if everyone in the church is speaking in tongues, and an un-believer walks in, he's going to think you're all nuts! Hardly an effective witness.

You wrote:
I agree. But how is it possible unless they all spoke in tongues ?

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You're inserting the word 'or' between each comma because that's what you believe. It is not there. Each of us can do any of these things, yet the church must be run in a way which is in order.

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Yes, each of us _can_ do these things if we pray for those gifts (in that the gifts are available to all Christians), but you still haven't given any biblical support for your belief that everyone _must_ do all these things to be a real Christian, to be saved.

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I wrote:

27 If any man speaketh in a tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the mostthree, and [that] in turn; and let one interpret: 28 but if there be nointerpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Interesting...

Yes, but what do you make of it ? Paul has said if you speak in tongues you can pray to interpret, so where is the problem ? All Christians not only *can*, but also *have* spoken in tongues. All Christians *can* interpret, but not all *have*.

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Nothing in there even remotely implies that all Christians _can_ or even _have_ spoken in tongues. You are reading your own beliefs into the text.

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Wow - you skipped more critical stuff. Verse 31 says as plain as day that we can all prophecy,

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and verse 32 says plain as day that our use of God's gifts of the Spirit is under our control.

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So we can all prophecy, we can all interpret, we can all speak in tongues.

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In fact, earlier he said that those that speak in tongues should also pray for the gift of interpretation. It isn't an automatic thing that every Christian can just do.

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Oh, we also can all pray for wisdom ( James says so ), discern spiritual things, pray to be healed, and I guarentee that all Christians have faith.

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That is the point, people misappropriate 1 Cor 12 to prove something that 1 Cor 14 proves it simply does not say.

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It's funny that having spent three chapters telling them to stop speaking in tongues all at once, he provides balance and says 'forbid not tongues'. He says 'seek prophecy', but not 'seek tongues'. No Christian needs to seek tongues, by definition.[QUOTE]
Actually in the very first verse he tells them to desire earnestly the spiritual gifts. Not just certain gifts, _all_ gifts.

They were putting too much emphasis on one particular gift, and he corrected them on that. But he doesn't want them to overreact, so he tells them to not prohibit speaking in tongues. He's saying that they should instead seek the gift of prophecy (and I interject here that if indeed everyone has the gift of prophesy, as you state above, why would we need to seek it?) because it edifies more people than speaking in tongues does. Of course he's not telling them to seek the gift of tongues. That's the problem in the first place: they already do, to the detriment of the other gifts.

Your logic is fallacious when you assume that since he didn't specifically tell them to seek the gift of tongues that it must be because real Christians don't have to seek it.

[quote]Why would he ? The Bible does not seek to make tongues a punishment or bad thing, we MUST have it, or else.

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It just tells us about all the gifts of the Spirit and expects us to believe that if God gives it, it is worth having. But seeing as Paul builds up prophecy ( in a meeting ) and tells all to seek it, don't you think that if 1 Cor 14:31 is a lie, and not all can prophecy, that Paul is setting people up to be disappointed, and the prophets to lord it over the others who, in your world, cannot have this gift ?[QUOTE]
I've never said anyone could not have this gift or any other. In fact I believe all Christians _can_ have _all_ these gifts. I don't believe that everyone _does_ automatically, or that anyone who does not exhibit a particular gift is not saved because of it.

[quote]No there is no conflict, I never claimed there was. I claimed that what most people claim 1 Cor 12 says is contradicted by 1 Cor 14, as we have now seen.

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Would you like me to post on 1 Cor 12 ? I've done so before, but I didn't here because I was trying very hard to movethe discussion away from where Rowan has been driving it.

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But you're right, this is not the place for it. Feel free to e-mail me at believer@christian.net if you'd like.

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An extra measure that is not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible ? An extra measure that we must invent in order to get out of the pickle that the presence of faith in 1 Cor 12's list puts us ?

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Semantics.

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Actually, the Bible verse about the measure of faith is about us all having the SAME measure, not that God withholds the thing that can save from some and not others. God is no respecter of persons and does not give with partiality.

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Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The Bible goes on to talk of people having different roles in the church, I think of the 1 Cor 12 gifts as the things an individual needs, and Rom 12 ( and also Ephesians from memory ) to list gifts the church needs. The latter, God will ensure exist among His people, the former we have the ability to choose to seek or not, with the exception that tongues is also the manifestation of the Spirit given to every man, in 1 Cor 12.

Why should we not think of ourselves as higher than others ? Because we all have the same measure of faith.

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2nd Corinthians 10:15 clearly indicates that faith is something that can be grown, even when you read it in the context of the entire chapter or book. So someone with the gift of faith is someone who hasn't had to grow it to the same degree as others.

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It seems I have a fan.

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It is often the case that these discussions get stuck in semantics and divorced from the power of God.

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However, at this point I'd say you've simply misunderstood a few verses, and also what I was trying to say in the first place.

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One has to wonder if you've read my usenet posts in the past, how you can claim that I've not quoted the Bible to back my views. Usenet is full of lengthy posts from the Bible from me.

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Well, given that I find myself mostly talking to unsaved believers online, it's not really an effective way to judge my witness offline.

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The very nature of the Gospel offends people in a place like this, no matter how I put it.

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Of course not, how could I ?

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I actually have a wife, two kids, a job I love ( programming ), side coding projects and a church life I like to maintain in terms of fellowship.
I'm not making a martyr of myself, I don't want applause and I'm not going to send the hat around, but why would I bother with the sort of treatment that some people give me ( again, especially on usenet ), if I did not love you and want to share the Gospel ?

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I previously was undecided in my belief on the doctrine of tongues. These discussions have lead me to explore the matter more fully, and I now am fully convinced that tongues are NOT something that every Christian has experienced, or will experience. I believe they _can_, if they seek it, but it's not a badge that proves one is a Christian or not.

So whatever your intentions, whether I agree with you or not, I do thank you for leading me to study it further.

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It's quite a while since I posted at all, and I *honestly* came to the conclusion that it's easy to get comfortable in church life and forget to be challenged by the Gospel, and wanted to discuss it as a conclusion that helped *me*, that applied to *me*.

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I said:
Why? Just because many (most?) of us disagree with you on your non-Biblical (at least until you provide some Biblical support) view of speaking in tongues, you assume that we'll disagree with _anything_ you say?

You said:
Well, it seems to be the case. If someone else had posted the point I've been trying to make, do you think it would have been argued over like this ? Do you think Rowan would fight the point that earthly charity is not going to save souls on it's own if you said it ?

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If anyone else had posed the question "what is Christianity?", it may or may not have wound up like this, depending on whether or not you got involved in the discussion ('cause you do tend to gravitate towards this topic sooner or later).

Was it fair to assume you you would eventually turn it into a tongues issue? No, it wasn't. Likely, perhaps. But until you actually brought it up yourself we should not have brought it up for you. And for my part in that I apologise.

I can't speak for Rowan, I have no idea how he or anyone else here views me. I'm more of a lurker than a poster. But you're probably right, your past arguments have tinted people's view of you in general. Not fair, perhaps, but it should hardly come as a surprise.

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I probably don't believe what you think BI is. That topic is so widely misrepresented that I don't even bother to discuss it.

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I'm not trying to sow seeds of anything. I wasn't even trying to discuss this, because this forum is kinda dead, the odds of anyone here not having already rejected the Gospel when presented with copious scripture seems low.

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What we have here is a stalemate. I have studied all the same scriptures that you have, and have come to different conclusions than you have. I believe your conclusions are wrong. You believe mine are wrong. Nothing you say is likely to change my mind, and nothing I say is likely to change yours.

So I'm willing to "agree to disagree" if you are, and move on to other topics.

And as you say, this discussion is serving no useful purpose, so I will not post to this thread again. And since I know I probably won't have the willpower to refrain from posting if you respond, I won't even bother reading this thread any more.

You are more than welcome to e-mail me with your interpretation of 1st Cor 12 though.

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so I will respond to your message, and then this will be my last post in this thread.

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I don't really see any point. Why ask me questions if you don't intend to respond to my answers ?

Is this what Jesus did? No. Is this how Paul instructs the new church to behave? No.

And look at the fruits of this atitude. We have one member trying to persuade a new member, who is still unsure of what to believe, to go to a branch of his cult. Do you think this good? Do you think Jesus would watched on politely, saying "isn't it nice how we all get along".

This forum is quick becoming a place where anyone would be afraid to open up, afraid to admit to problems, afraid to seek help, because they know they will be judged, and have their faith belittled by a man that does not have the love of God in him.

Slight differences in beliefs make for interesting debates. False Gospels are dangerous, evil and deceiving.

Believer: Your commentary on 1 Corinthians 12-14 has been thorough and logical, but it is clear you will never convince a man who believes what he wants to believe. A man whose religion is fueled by pride and elitism.

I know this post will be controversial, and I expect to see my words spat back at me line by line with some arrogant remark within 10 mins of posting.

God Bless.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

I really have nothing to add to what you've said, I think your fruits are more than obvious. If Believers comments are correct or not was not really my point though, my point is why did he make it and ask me questions if he's not going to respond to my answers. What your personal opinion of me is, and the degree to which that clouds your judgement, really has nothing to do with it.