Just curious!

--D-SIPL

How about this as well: What does the Bible say on the subject of tattoos, if anything? Do you personally believe it is ok?

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It's not seeing is believing, it's believing and then seeing.
http://www.twoguyssoftware.com

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by Insanepoet (edited November 20, 2002).]

~Angel~

They tell me it's wrong, and an act of rebellion?? what? I just thought it looked good so i got it done. It doesn't make me some evil little goth kid... it's still me. I hate this stereotype that im now cast into!

Oh well...

--D-SIPL

I am a goth christian and proud of it. I read my Bible, folow what it says, love God, and I will pearce any part of me a feel like pearcing. Its called decoration not trubute to some dark lord of the nether world come forth to bring all into hell for pleasure and to smoke weed. I would tell those hipocrits off thats what I would do.

Still I have biblical backing. Ask them if they can give you any biblical backing to their jugment. I have asked people and you know what they have none! I know Christians that are coverd in tatoos that are scripture right from the Bible. People call them evil. I call them a walking insperation. They dont have to tell you they are christian. Its evident by all the scripture on their bodys.

The only thing I would say not to tatoo is your forhead and your hands. The Bible says they are never to be given markings. God has them reserved for the mark He is going to put on you.

Stay strong dig into your Bible. If your heart, mind, and soul is in the right place with God then there is nothing wrong. Christians just like to standerdize and clone people. Im no clone and I have my own walk with God. So in short I say bless you for getting pearced!

~Angel~

PS dont bother arguing with those sort of people. They are brain washed :P

there are some pagan religions that still use piercing as a sign of holyness ( pun not intended ). Works are only to determin reward in heaven not a path to get there.

Shpiffy

It's not clearly defined what it does represent, except obviously doing something with your body, being comfortable and creative with it, using body as an expression, etc. And as some people said, it looks good to them. So the real, deep, more important meanings are not so accessible. They are more abstract.

That's why you see people against it pointing to paganism, bad forms of goth, unhealthy lifestyles, ungodly secularism following pop culture, etc.; those are concrete things and you can sometimes see a correlation with them and the body alteration, and it's easier to latch onto those correlations than to figure out what something as abstract as the psychology of body alteration really means in detail. I think those associations that people make are valid concerns because you do see them, although on the other hand, one doesn't necessarily mean the other will happen, so it still falls short of true understanding, and so it can lead to wrong judgment.

But I think the key is understanding what piercing does psychologically and why it appeals to certain groups--especially nonbelievers with problem lifestyles. I'm no psychologist, but it's pretty obvious, for example, that the expression of higher level of comfort with your body and freedom to do whatever you want with it is appealing to those who don't want the moral restrictions of traditional Judeo-Christian heritage.

Do you see what I mean? This doesn't apply the other way and mean that if you are pierced you will be promiscuous (as one example behavior) but just the opposite--a person who is already feeling pulled down the path to be promiscuous may get a psychological consolation from body alteration that confirms secular beliefs and trends about attitude and body and (from their point of view) breaks with traditional ideas and authority figures and conservative religion and its morality restraints.

Another way to look at it is that piercing is a taboo for an older generation and traditional society--they just wouldn't do it (except for earrings for women) whether there was a certain reason or not. (Such as respect for the body as it was Created.) They also had many relationship taboos about morality--and there were good, Christian reasons for that. So for some unbelievers and confused young people, piercing is just one of a whole set of taboos that, by breaking, they feel freedom from the restraints of all the aspects of traditional conservative society, including the morality and the religion and what have you. It's "advertised" by popular stars, people, and groups who are pierced and represent these kinds of attitudes and lifestyles that people want. If piercing gets more blame than its share in this complex situation, that's too bad, but that's how the situation is.

Looking around, you have to admit that body alterations (and related but more taboo behaviors) are used by many as part of unhealthy expressions and lifestyles, and since people are trying to protect their kids from those lifestyles and attitudes, they pick up on piercing as one of the warning signs. So if alterations get a bad rap, a lot of the blame should go on the ones who are promoting them for the wrong reasons as part of a negative image.

One other aspect is that piercing and tattoos may make someone feel different and unique--although a few years ago, it was buying a certain kind of mass-produced clothes that made you different and unique. If everyone has a piercing or tattoo or certain brand of jeans, will they all be unique? The truth is that God created us all unique and special and different from the beginning--even people genetically the same like identical twins--and the mind and soul of every person is unique. (Although some TV stations and educational associations do their best to try to change the unique mind part. ;-) So true worth and difference goes deeper than the body, and you could argue that body alteration reflects an existential or secular approach by trying to get uniqueness with superficial means when we already have it as a gift and can further develop it through our actions. But of course, it doesn't have to mean that for a Christian.

Like other trends, it's also just cool and a symbol of a generation or even just a style that's considered good-looking, but at the same time, it still has meaning, and because of what it's associated with and who promotes it, it can still tend to confirm a break with tradition and a coming together with pop culture, and both of those trends tend to lead away from conservative morals for those who are easily led astray and not truly independent thinkers. And while it's the "in" look right now, our body is made after the image of God, so we should treat it with respect. Are piercings and tattoos a good way to use the image He gave us? That's something you have to decide for yourself.

So, understanding the appeal to some groups of people in confirming negative attitudes and behaviors, although you're not part of those groups, you can then understand the reaction from other concerned people, especially older people, even if sometimes they may not understand the whole picture--you can hardly blame them, since most of the people getting pierced don't see the whole picture either.

I don't condemn people for their piercing, but I think like everything else in this world, it pays for Christians to take a close look and try to understand it before either getting decorated or condemning someone who does. Personally, piercing doesn't have any mental appeal for me, so I don't have to worry about it, and I wouldn't recommend anything extreme for other people unless it's just something they feel they gotta have. But if I saw someone with a distinctly Christian alteration, that would appeal to me a lot more, since it's a permanent positive message to the world. And if someone has obvious good works following after them, then how could a piercing get in the way? If a person examines what motivates them to want the piercing and can see clearly how the image affects their own attitude and their impact on others, then they should be able to make a good decision.

I hope those with piercings can make peace with their congregations, one way or the other--maybe you could explain to them that such and such is what it means or does for nonbelievers and certain groups of people, but not for everyone and not for you. However, if you want them to listen, you also have to give their point of view some real thought too, and hopefully both sides can come to some agreement. I think maybe the New Testament letters could help to shed some insight on how to deal with this general kind of thing, although not in specifics but it gives insight in how to deal with various issues in the society of believers and in the congregation.

Curry

(I just joined CCN--I expected to be discussing Christian software first, but this is such an interesting subject, I just couldn't resist discussing it first.)

[This message has been edited by Curry (edited November 23, 2002).]

Don't let these weighty topics fool you - there still are some around here who chat about programming and games, etc. I, and I'm sure others as well, hope you enjoy visiting CCN for years to come.

God Bless,
Matt

~Angel~

quote:

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You do what you like and I'll do what I like

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What if we said that in regards to say Sexual morality? or murder?
or even lying 'truth' etc..
your truth is relative to you, and mine is to me..
very dangerous ideas that are ripping society apart..

I think our prayer as Christian is NOT OUR WILL BE DONE, but His Will be done.
We do have a liberty in Christ, but that liberty is not to be abused, and its to come under the gracious law of love..

so rather
Lets both do what Christ wants, letting Christ use our awesomely unique and different characteristics , however submitting to Christ in everything, and doing everything we do as worship to Christ.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

There doesn't seem to be anything in the Bible that says piercing is bad and I personally think eyebrow piercings are cool. I have had my ear pierced since I was five but have decided not to wear an earring. I often hear people from churches complain that they need more young people to join. If you can identify with younger people( keep up with fashion ), it makes it easier to share the bible with them.

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I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all around me seemed insufficient for the day. ABRAHAM LINCOLN

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I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all around me seemed insufficient for the day. ABRAHAM LINCOLN

Im not a perfect person and ive often said that here and often given examples of my foolishness. Still I am a child of God and I dont apreaciat people puting stumbling blocks in my way. The only blocks I want to see are building blocks and blocked doors that lead to temtation.

Anyways I hope I didnt burst anybodys pimples in all my rambling.
With Love!
~Angel~

Great topic.

My opinion is that it all comes down to motivation. If you get an earring/tattoo/branding(???? wow) because you're trying to shock people or be rebellious, etc., then you're probably in the wrong. If, however, you just happen to like having a piercing/tattoo/etc., or if there is some personal significance to it, then I don't see a problem.

For example, let's say that a close friend passes away. Some people may build a little memory book of that person with pictures and notes; some may go once a year to a place that they always went together as an rememberance anniversary; some may get a tattoo that is a constant reminder of what that person meant to them; etc. None of these are wrong, in my opinion, they are simply ways that a person chooses to remember a friend.

Personally, I'd much rather see someone get a tattoo to remember me by then to go out and get completely drunk once a year in my honour! I mean, sheesh, what if they got drunk and THEN got a tattoo...that would be bad cause now they'd have a tattoo and they'd still get drunk once a year...I'm an okay guy and all, but that's a bit much for a rememberance of me, I think!

So, I'd say look at your motivation. Why did you get the brow-piercing? Was it to shock people or was it for some other, more healthy reason? Find your true motivation and you'll know what to do.

My 2 cents!

-Krylar (earring, left ear, three years )
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[This message has been edited by krylar (edited November 25, 2002).]

quote:

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Don't let these weighty topics fool you - there still are some around here who chat about programming and games, etc.

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Anyways, thanks for the input, I got my eyebrow pierced because i like it, and all the youht like it as well. They think it's "cool", and can talk to me without thinking im a stuck up christian! Which is good, right?

Take care guys! Thanks again for the input

--D-SIPL

I'm glad to find this board, it's so good to see so many people getting together who are so interested and concerned about Christianity and moral life, and crazy about programming! It's kind of like coming home to a home you never knew you had. :-)

Curry

http://www.aidslondon.com/printed_stuff/pamphlets/BodyArtSafety.pdf

tons of good advice on the above "sheet" - stick to the rules, you should be ok, actually remember that scary guy that had seven pledges?
he was covered in tattoos and piercings and although his site has now folded, I still think he's a good egg ! ( and you too D-SIPL - take care ,m8 !! )

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from your old mate ..check chiefty's WORKLOGS !
c h i e f t y
globalc h i e f t y to yer old seadog seafaced seafarers

quote:

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Originally posted by silicon_chippy:
Apparently the next craze will be branding. That would be sore!!!!!

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Seems to me the coolest thing is yet to catch on: subdermals

Implants under the skin. Some folks already have them in the form of bumps and ridges on their foreheads, cheeks, wrists, etc. Ever see the person who is turning himself into a lizard? Or the one who's turning himself into a cat? Both have used extensive tattooing, implants, etc. The lizard guy even had his tongue split.

But the coolest ones will be the light-emitting ones placed just under the skin. Think of glow-in-the-dark animated tattoos. Powered by tiny batteries that self-charge simply through kinetic energy. Easy to remove if you grow tired of them too. Somebody somewhere must be doing this already I imagine.

I'd probably even get one of those

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I'd probably say piercing is fine... just be careful on what you are trying to say.

In my view, it's very cultural. If all the "high class and sophisticated" people did it, then it would looked up on as classy. If all the "ganstas and such" did it, it maybe looked upon as low and scummy.

I personally don't care for them. That's just me. I wouldn't get up in some one's face because they have on.

A piercing can give an image of yourself to other people. Becareful what that image is.

Peace out!

Sorry but I must say no. The truth is like many other things (alcohal, tv, vidiogames, food, exc) decroating the body has its limmits. One shouldnt drink to much alcohal but some is good for you. Food is great but to much makes your body bolge out. Vidio games are great but reality should not be ignored. Tatoos, pearcing, branding, scaring, are all things that I say can be ok to a point.

Still the cold truth is "Why focus so much on this when God is the important thing". When something is more important then God then its time to drop it. I loved my pearcing. I had them done with blunt swoing needles. I loved the pain to a point (lets you know your alive if you ask me). Still I wasnt so attached to them that I couldnt drop them. I dont have them now but my wife wants me to get at least one back. I would get it but I dont want my baby tugging on it I probably will get some again after my kids are a bit older.

Life is crazy...

So in closing: Its your walk with GOD! Get in your flippen BIBLE! & let Him teach you what is right and wrong for you to do.

God Bless
~Angel~

And no, I'm not into hurting myself for fun.

Later Homies!

Having a 270lb guy in spandex land on me isnt my idea of fun mate. Whatever floats your boat though (most people I hang around love it)

Football is not about a 270 lb guy in spandex landing on you. heck that never happened yo me. I just get thrown around alot. I'm tall, so I get tripped easily. I also have a record of getting launched in the air.

... how did we go from body piercing to football? Oh wait, that was me!

Later!

Anyways, it's called football but you hardly touch the ball with your foot. Now footbal (soccer to USA residents) uses the foot for 98% of the game. So why call American football, footbal, when soccer is really football? If that makes sense? Anyways, don't get me started on that one!

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

Graceworks Interactive

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Yes, I'm a Christian. Yes, I play Quake 3.

What part of that do some people not understand?

He who dies with the most frags wins,
but he who dies with Jesus in his heart conquers.

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Note: If you dont get wiggy and start riots when your team wins you are a good person.

Ext Note: If you are a person who is goes out and distroys privet and public property then you need to see a shrink and get some sedatives!

~Angel~

quote:

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Originally posted by D-SIPL:
You think American Football is bad, you want to play Rugby, exactly the same but without all the padding and helmets etc etc. Never seen a rugby player without a collyflower ear!!

Anyways, it's called football but you hardly touch the ball with your foot. Now footbal (soccer to USA residents) uses the foot for 98% of the game. So why call American football, footbal, when soccer is really football? If that makes sense? Anyways, don't get me started on that one!

--D-SIPL

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If we change Soccer to Footbal in USA, then what will we call American Football? I am just saying this because I realised there is not a single good name for that specific sport heheheh:-) As far as tatoos and piercings go, well I play paintball, which dyes the skin like a tatoo and (if you turn the gun up uber high) can create a hole just like a body piercing!!! Seriously, I don't think it matters, I think that anyone who gets upset over visual appearances should get a life--Jesus made a point of reaching out to the social outcasts of his time which should tell us to look at no one as an outcast.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

I'm not a watcher. I don't root for a team or such.
I do some time like seeing good plays, though.

I like to play. Sports is not about watching buy playing.

ya know, this is changing from piercings to sports. cool.
besides, the topic is spelled wrong. who care though. itz all cool.

Later!

Saying that, my home team Southampton, beat Tottenham 4-0!! wohoooo! go on the saints!

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

Graceworks Interactive

Well I just thought I would bring in an old fashioned idea that pretty much takes care of any question including piercing.
Pray - Listen - Obey! Yes I did say pray about getting a tattoo or a piercing or anything. Most people who cannot pray about little things usually do not pray about anything else until their in trouble. Pray about everything is fact since the Lord said to pray without ceasing.
You know God really can answer any question himself and yes discussion and wise council is fine but ultimately every true believe should lay down his cross and take up Christ's and pray. Don't pierce, don't cut, or do anything to ones-self or anyone else and pray twice as much about dragging someone else into your situation/s. IE sex etc in regards to another post elsewhere on the board. God will answer and if someone says he doesn't then I would feel fairly safe in saying that they are not through praying or they are not listening for an answer or the final item which all of us have done at one time or another in a similar form - we did what we wanted and paid the price for being like Abram who was Johnny on the spot with Sarai's maidservant. Something looked like the right answer but it was extremely out of God's will. As far as other people judging someone it is safe to say that after a person has received their answer they would not have any problem because their God told them it was OK and that is final and the strength of God will make that answer secure. Remember that no one can say that God said it is OK until they have actually listened long enough to get an answer.

I believe it would also be prudent to make sure the bible agrees with what you feel the Lord has spoken to you as an individual. I know it seems easier to ask someone else but then I would be very quick to point out that you should be reading your bible and praying and the same God that answered all those in scripture will answer you just as well no matter what the subject. If you prayed today about getting a piercing (or anything else) and went and did it tomorrow I highly doubt you took the time to "wait upon the Lord".
You should also consider a prayer partner and I do not mean someone who gives their opinion but someone who will agree with you for an answer. The main reason behind "two or more are gathered in my name" (Jesus Speaking) is to invite Christ into the conversation. There was a time when this gave an image of you and your prayer partner forming the chair on which Christ took the position of Lord. There was another fellow who posted on sex before marriage on another part of this board. I would think that if the "couple" would pray they would find the answer directly from God and the truth in the scripture. If this "couple" even have any chance of building a relationship in Christ it should be with praying - listening - and obeying. People all to often shove prayer to the side and then want someone to make them feel better about their problem or situation afterwards.

One last item to touch on is judging others. Something can be approved by God for one man and not approved for another. For an example, I know Christian bands that play bars. Is this for all Christian bands to do. No would be the correct answer although I meet bands all the time that think they should. Many people should never set foot in a bar as a Christian band or otherwise. Each of God's children are called to specific goals in life. The band I am thinking of would be Spittin Jonah who spent many years playing in bars in the "metal line of music". They are also the praise and worship group of their churches Sunday services. What I am saying is that they did what the Lord told them to do - they prayed - listened - and obeyed. God apparently told them to go and he knew they would not fall into sin. Not everyone would agree with them doing this but what does that matter anyway. If God tells you to do something and it is biblically correct and you have confirmed it through prayer and heard His reply then I would get to doing it. Being sure to count the cost and prepared to lay down your own life for that belief.
Then of course there is one last item - what if God does not answer. Well if you do not have answer then maybe it is because something else is need to be dealt with first. Because God always answers and deals with the first item in need ---- first----. Of course this is another subject all together.
Pray - Listen and Obey for your own direction and love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself.
P. S. Live for God - don't sweat the small stuff. The more Jesus people see in you the less they see you. I pray you find piece in the midst of this storm on piercing at your church. Peace for your heart is there this I do believe - seek and ye shall find remembering not to judge others in any way for it is measured back with the same measure.

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Luke 12:15 Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

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Look inside yourself.

Where in the bible do they mention that it's wrong to change the appearance of other people's property?

Especially when you've just started posting, people don't know you yet, and may think you really mean what you've just said.

But, here is an answer for that arguement:

Actions speak louder than words.

it's a pretty common saying.
Our actions show who we truly are. Actions are one of the best things for us(emphasis on "us", being human) to judge by.
Sure, a guy could still make it to heaven after being a serial murder. But I would seriously doubt his salvation. What the heck would motivate him to do that! Why should I(emphasis on "I") believe that he is a christian!

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Fight(as in overkill) the Good Fight of Faith...

During my stay in England I particularly found weed enjoyable, why is this worse than cigarrettes or alcohol?

quote:

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Why would I not mean it? Did you know that there is a disease called the Tourettes syndrome? The person who suffers from it make uncontrolled moves. Either it making sounds or moving your arms/legs/whatever. Some of these people it is as difficult to stop blinking as it is to stop swearing. How could you calculate every situation when you just say that it is bad to swear, and that you should seek medical help?

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This is ridiculous. Someone having a medical problem does not give you licence to behave the same way they do. When you said you like to smash windows, do you honestly believe that is being 'all things to all men'. Do you think Jesus behaved that way ?

quote:

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During my stay in England I particularly found weed enjoyable, why is this worse than cigarrettes or alcohol?

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Medically, it's less harmful. The Bible makes clear that Christians do not drink alcohol, specifically, and other scripture covers other drugs nicely, weed and tobacco included.

The Bible says a lot about our actions being more important than our words. What you say to God, or about Him is worse than irrelevant if you're going to live like the worst examples of people who do not know Him.

Fitta, I'm going to ask you a question. What do you think defines Right and Wrong?

And alcohol is not necessarily bad, just getting drunk or addicted is. For that reason, however, I would never drink it.
However, you could convince me with some good verses.

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Fight(as in overkill) the Good Fight of Faith...

quote:

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And alcohol is not necessarily bad, just getting drunk or addicted is. For that reason, however, I would never drink it.
However, you could convince me with some good verses.

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Well, there is a lot in the Bible about kings and priests not consuming alcohol, ( which is the position of Christians in the NT ), but IMO the more compelling argument comes from Romans, where Paul says he will not eat meat at all if it could offend a brother. He didn't say he was going to eat in secret, and I've had priests tell me that they would be happy to hide the grog if a reformed alcoholic visits, but not to give up the grog. IMO this is the opposite of what Paul said, and is an indication of addiction ( if someone is not addicted, why wouldn't they give it up for the Gospel's sake ? )

A friend has spent many years learning Bible Greek and tells me that the difference between new (unfermented) wine and stuff that is alcoholic is wquite clear in the Greek, and that it's quite clear in the Greek that we're not to drink alcohol, although our translations all say we should not get drunk. In any case, you start getting drunk when you start drinking alcohol, it's just a question of how drunk is acceptable to you.

Due to my lack of knowledge of alcohol, can you explain to me about wine?
cuz Jesus made wine, and Paul suggested some wine to Timothy for his stomach.

Note: I'm not trying to protect alcohol... just searching for truth. But I think you know that.

Later!

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Fight(as in overkill) the Good Fight of Faith...

I dunno if the Timothy verse speaks of fermented wine, if it does, then it does for medicinal reasons, just as there is alcohol in cough medicine today.

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Fight(as in overkill) the Good Fight of Faith...

I seriously doubt today's best translators would miss something like this.

Even more literal translations (Looking at Bible Gateway here) don't mention "new" or "old" wine at the wedding . . . odd . . .

I'm inclined to think this is just to support your idea of 0% alcohol consumption. I agree that too much is not good for you; in fact, I rarely drink any alcohol myself (less than once a month).

Yes, it's for medicinal purposes in the Timothy verse. "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illness" 1 Tim 5:23

This was actually given to the people he was writing his letter to - this verse doesn't seem to be given to a single person in particular.

quote:

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I seriously doubt today's best translators would miss something like this.

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They simply fail to make the distinction. It's a sin of omission, which has been happening since the KJV.

quote:

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Even more literal translations (Looking at Bible Gateway here) don't mention "new" or "old" wine at the wedding . . . odd . . .

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As I said, my friend reads the Greek. He's told me all the words ( he's quite enthusiastic and has worked hard to learn the Greek ), but I only remember the overview, which is that the Bible makes that distinction in the original. There are also three distinct words for 'love' in the NT, and verses that lose meaning because of their common translation. It's simply stayed the way it has always been, because it's not a concept easily translated into English. How do you differentiate agape from phileo from eros succinctly ?

quote:

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I'm inclined to think this is just to support your idea of 0% alcohol consumption.

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Feel free to be inclined any way you see fit.

quote:

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I agree that too much is not good for you; in fact, I rarely drink any alcohol myself (less than once a month).

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Wow - almost pure. That's great. In the OT, people were struck dead for having consumed alcohol before coming before the presence of God. But as I said, I think the Romans verses are the most compelling, because they are plain in every version of the Bible, and make a lot of sense.

quote:

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Yes, it's for medicinal purposes in the Timothy verse. "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illness" 1 Tim 5:23

This was actually given to the people he was writing his letter to - this verse doesn't seem to be given to a single person in particular.

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Um... it's CALLED Timothy, and starts:

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, [which is] our hope;
1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, [my] own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

And *I* read what I want into the Bible ? Sheesh....

I can't believe you'd claim there was a church where all present had stomach troubles and frequent illness.....

quote:

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As I said, my friend reads the Greek. He's told me all the words ( he's quite enthusiastic and has worked hard to learn the Greek ), but I only remember the overview, which is that the Bible makes that distinction in the original. There are also three distinct words for 'love' in the NT, and verses that lose meaning because of their common translation. It's simply stayed the way it has always been, because it's not a concept easily translated into English. How do you differentiate agape from phileo from eros succinctly ?

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I guess I'll have to find a greek bible & dictionary - I think I used to have access to an interlinear Bible or something like that - I'll have to take a look. Yes, I am aware the NT has 3 words for love. And no, I don't know any greek. I'm not a pastor or theologian, just a programmer .

I'm surprised that literal translations, which exchange readibility for accuraccy, would do this :O.

I guess I have research to do =).

As for the Timothy verse - sorry, I guess I just skimmed the introduction :/. I'll have to re-read the book. You're right.

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Fight(as in overkill) the Good Fight of Faith...

I decided to do a little research myself on the Greek, because its very easy to say "my friend whose an expert says this and that..". And btw I don't drink at all - I gave it up over a year ago.

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

The apostles were being accused of being drunk on "new wine" which you claim is the non-alcoholic variety. This type of wine is called Tirosh in Hebrew, and the old wine is Yayin.

to prostitution, to old wine and new, which take away the understanding

The first occurence of "wine" in the Hebrew for this verse is Yayin, the second is Tirosh - and they BOTH take away understanding!

But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

The greek word for drunkard here is methusos and its meaning is generally given as drunkard or intoxicated. It occurs in Plato's Republic to describe being reduced to a state of 'childish helplessness'. It does not mean therefore to have drunk any amount of alcohol.

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Grace and Peace

Rowan

In summary ( coz I won't type it all again )

Thanks for the well wishes, ArchAngel,

Good to see you, Rowan, I miss our discussions also.

I agree that my friend being an expert is close to meaningless in the grand scheme of things, it's a claim that needs to be checked up on to carry weight.

I shall have to look at Hosea 4 and discuss it with my friend.

I continue to maintain that unless the body is pickled from previous abuse, you start getting drunk when you start drinking.

Col 2:20-23.

I agree. If someone who does not have the Holy Spirit does not drink, smoke, swear, or fornicate, they will still die in sin. The central thing is a relationship with Jesus, and the infilling of God's Holy Spirit. But we are not free TO sin, we are free FROM sin. This verse speaks of attitude, if we do what is right as if it were the Law, there is no benefit. If we do wrong, there is no benefit, either. If we do right out of a sincere heart, having first availed ourselves of salvation from God, then we do well, and God is able to save out soul.