General Christian Discussions

Divided Mother Church! – RAN-SUN-SAN



Posts: 27
From: Finland
Registered: 10-09-2002
I have unfortunetly seen the gap inside the church grow by the years. The "body" of christ is dividing into more and more small peaces, where there is only in north america a few thousand "christian" churches (who all have the right understanding of faith).

The New Testament talks about that the body consists of many parts, but it didnīt mean that we should start NEW churches every month.
The story tries to give a picture that even if we are different and have different missions, we should stay united in ONE church, the body of christ.
This happened from ~30 AD a few hundred years ahead. Then came the first division into the Ortodox church and a more peaceful time occured. There were ofcourse some small groups of heretics, but no larger division, even if people could have different thoughts within the church.

Then came a darker time where the church and political interests were joined together. But after that, around 1800- waves of NEVER before seen division and NEW beliefs came into the church.

Well you might think that Iīm Catolic, but Iīm not! The Catolic church has itīs failures, but so does EVERY congregation have in my mind.
As I use to say: "if you search for a perfect church, and you find it, donīt go there cause you WILL destroy it!"

Where are we going? Is the idea to start NEW churches from God, or from the humans themselves?

There might be quite good new churches, but also those who teach a different gospel! Does the words of Jesus have anything to do with this time?
(Unfortunetly I have no english bible so)
READ MARK 13:3-23

- MANY shall come in MY NAME

I think that theese things happen today, in many of the new movements!

Do you have any thoughts about this! Or the division within the church, between conservative (fundamentalistic) and more liberal views



Posts: 10
From: Baton Rouge, LA
Registered: 10-28-2002
If you read through the new Testment writing of Paul you will find that almost every new testament congregation would today be it's own denomination. Each had seperate beliefs and problems. Different things that they did or did not do. However they where all part of the Church. The Church is the total sum of all christians. It's not a building on a corner. We may call the asembly of ourselves together by a particular name or denomination. But we are all collectively the Bride of christ.

MT 26:39 "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"



Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
yes i believe in the local church, also in decentralised churches(when there is power issues, because of a big network etc, its so easy for the leaders to subcumn to human nature, and politics to enter in - take the catholic church for instance),decentralised churches where the local church has a bit of autonomy to carry out what God has called it to in its context without burracracy, however i believe that every church needs serious ACCOUNTIBILITY, so thus being a denominatin, and being in relationship with other churches, near and far are very important, and local churches in an area, shoul be in relationship with each other, and support each other prayerfully...

i believe in modalities and sodalities both, and both are in the bible.. I do agree in many of the unity movements across the bible.. though of course you need to be very careful of bad doctrine and compromise in these organisations, however some people are tryibng to be so careful, they write them all off and you don't want to wash the baby down the drain do we?

also parachurch organisations serve their purpose well... if you don't think so, how many local pastors would be skilled enough to translate the bible themselves?

we do need to have unity, but the best way of that is to love our christian neighbours (and non christians also), i mean love them in a sacrificially way like Jesus loves the church, and make sure you aren't just trying to isolate yourself in your "we are right" crowd, and being to comfortable..

Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia



Posts: 27
From: Finland
Registered: 10-09-2002
There was no really organised church in the time that the New Testamnet was written. An organisation was still forming, cause as already mentioned problems started to occure.

ROMANS 16:17 warns for those who cause separation "in the church", and teach new teachings that differ from the "original".
Even if no actual "church" is mentioned here, the verse assumes that there is a group that teaches something (cause you can teach differently).
It was not a great idea: "Oh, those teach a little different, no problem if we are a little separated, cause weīre still all in christ"!

Noup! The church WAS the body of christ. It was something that differ from the world. Today individualism is "in", while a community is "out". Therfore I can believe what I want = I need no church! But in the days of the Bible, and the early church, the church was a community, where every individual was a part of the body of Christ.
The church "buildings" were only something you could see, the "outer limits" of Christs body (sorry I canīt express myself better in english!).

The church that was slowly getting itīs form, had an outer limit. I donīt think that it was just ANYONE that was christian.
Even Jesus said to Peter (Petrus) in MATT 16:18, "You are the rock upon which I shall build my church".
Now why build upon someone, if there was no difference of outer limits? But here is a start of the church. One man shalöl be the first, and upon him, the whole church will form. And it did!
MATT 16:18 also adds: " the gates of the kingdom of death shall never touch it "; = this means that even if the church has to suffer, it shall NEVER die (never meet the gates of death)!

I donīt think that God can only work in one church, but Iīm sure that the separation that is going on is not from God! Itīs a trick, that we christians have fallen into. The more separated, and more "problems" between the churches, the easier itīs to come in with a new teaching and say "THIS IS THE REAL CHRISTIANITY"!

The people who defended the christian faith, used one argument against NEW teachings! They asked: WHICH BISHOP HAS TEACHED THAT BEFORE? and the new teachers had a hard time answearing it. Therefore TRADITION became very important for the Roman Catholic Church, since it was seen as a defens against all NEW teachings.
Today, many NEW churches uses a different type of answear, to that same question: WHICH BISHOP HAS TEACHED..., and they try to answear and say, well ALL the Roman Catolic Church is from satan, so we donīt care what they teached. You see God told us in 1970 the NEW revelation....


Junior Member

Posts: 6
Registered: 11-13-2002
Praise Jesus Christ in Heaven, my brothers/sisters in our mutual Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ!
Ahh, and praise Jesus for this thing, that you are all talking about the separations of the Church, that gloriously whole body of which we all who are truly Christians are members of, which the Head, our same and precious Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ - we are all the members of that body which He knows -- Praise His holy name for it! and for ALL He does!!
I can speak freely in the Lord, because He is with me, not because of any doctrine of men, but of His Word, which He hides in my heart, and, accompanied with His love that He sheds abroad in my heart, I can rely, joyously and in truth, knowing that He leads and guides me and gives me the sight of Himself when I only look at Him -- Brothers and sisters in Christ, I literally know that I'm seeing Him because He is right there, and He is!! Not as some imagining of the mind, which men may read into the situation, but that I KNOW that I'm allowed to believe THAT particular thing, because He has given me promise in His Word, Who He is, that "the sheep will know the Shepherd's voice"!! I hope this freedom I show to you will help you all to know that we, His Church, which He knew before it knew Him, should have hope, that through Him we may do all things; He strengthens us!! Let us all then unite -- spiritually as well as in the physical, because in body we are limited to our physical functionings, but in the Holy Spirit, we are already united, fully and without any doubt (unless we doubt His promises, which we should immediately and simply faithfully stop. In Christ Jesus' name, I tell you that if He is with you, if you are with Him, He can, and will deliver you to all His promises). Praise the Lord of Hosts, our precious Lord and Saviour, Christ Jesus, Who is and is the provider of EVERYTHING we will ever need, praises and all glory to Jesus Christ!
even when the body is weak, it will not be overcome by the world - because Jesus has already won the victory!!! ..for us!! ..and He can see into the future...
May we all believe our mutual Lord, Master, and Saviour, Jesus Christ in everything great and small that He does, and give Him all the glory and praise and worship for it all, and not beat our fellow servants in the process even though they don't seem to match up at all with our convictions, as long as they --and I think this is the test; if I'm wrong, then throw it out, but I believe this about says the gospel in a nutshell (and if anyone else out there has a different view --- I want to hear it! ) -- whosoever believes in their heart the Lord Jesus Christ, and that God has raised Him from the dead, and confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, they shall be saved. (a verse like what I just quoted, which may be another verse of Scripture, although I'm not sure about it; the verse like this is Romans 10:9)
I hope I haven't been too long-winded for you, or confusing at all; this is what I've done, and it has expressed my ideas well, if not conveniently then that's alright. Praise God! Where I am weak, He is strong!!!
I just encourage each and every brother and sister in our mutual Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, to continually praise Him together with all the saints, not bringing to the table any type of strifes, or factions, or any other type of thing that would hinder the Church and show un-love toward each other, who God has made completely the same, and in His image and likeness, as the Scripture promises, even though we, in all our failings, can see many images of evil, and indeed not only images but true failings into evil in certain members at certain times also -- and even though this is so, let us know as with our belief of God Himself, that He keeps us all, even though we can't see Him holding us all the time. Let us praise Him together, and worship Him always in our own hearts, and tell the whole world about Him. (He will direct the specifics of the whole world being told; I hope I'm buiding you up in this).
Praise Jesus Christ in Heaven who died and took on all of our sins, sicknesses, weaknesses onto Himself and the Father God, Who raised Him from the dead and surrendering love the Holy Spirit of God, Who broods over us who love and know Christ our Saviour, with that same brooding strength that comes from Him who brooded over the face of the waters way back in Genesis 1:2 -- Praise Holy name for ever and for ever and ever!!!
I am only a man, who is weak of being a man; but Jesus Christ is strong! and He has strength for me in my weakness!! Praise His holy name!!!

Your Brother in our mutual Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, the Head of that same Body of which we are all Members - and the Bride of Christ also!!
Jeremy Bickel



Posts: 208
From: Scotland
Registered: 10-26-2002
Wow, that was kinda heavy. I see this is your first post. Welcome to Christiancoders.

I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all around me seemed insufficient for the day. ABRAHAM LINCOLN



Posts: 208
From: Scotland
Registered: 10-26-2002
Sorry second

I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all around me seemed insufficient for the day. ABRAHAM LINCOLN