Wednesday, October 2, 2002

TONY CAMPOLO SAYS PRESIDENT BUSH SHOULD "EXHAUST ALL POSSIBLE NEGOTIATIONS" WITH SADDAM HUSSEIN, DOESN'T BELIEVE HE HAS "JUST CAUSE" TO FIGHT IRAQ

By Michael Ireland
Chief Correspondent, ASSIST News Service

MINNEAPOLIS, MN (ANS) -- Tony Campolo, professor of sociology at Eastern College in St. David’s, Pennsylvania, and one of the most controversial and widely-read Christian writers of our time, believes that President George W. Bush does not have a case to go to war with Iraq according to the Just War Theory.

In an exclusive interview with ASSIST News Service (ANS), Campolo said: "I have a problem with the (Bush Administration) policies towards Iraq because I take Jesus seriously. I find it very difficult to be thrilled about what’s happening when I read Jesus saying if your enemy hungers, feed him; if your enemy is naked, clothe him; if he is sick, care for him. The return of good for evil. It seems to me we are all wearing these buttons, ‘What Would Jesus Do?' and if we are serious about that then we will not be pursuing the policies we are presently following.

It seems to me we should end the embargo, we should feed the people in Iraq -- a quarter to a half-million children at least have died of either lack of medical care or lack of food in the last ten years as a result of this embargo. And you know, I know Saddam Hussein is an evil man but that doesn’t justify our doing what we did in cutting these children off. So, I would end the embargo, I would establish intimate relationships with the Iraqi people by helping them in their hour of crisis. I would negotiate -- and I don’t understand why we are rushing into this war anyway.”

On the question of Saddam Hussein's possible possession of weapons of mass destruction, Campolo said: "Well, they have been there for the last 15 years, why are we all of a sudden panicking? I mean, as a matter of fact, they were there when Iraq was fighting against Iran and the United States was providing logistics for Saddam Hussein, at that time and knowing that he was using these chemical warfare instruments and these biological instruments of warfare. He doesn’t have an atomic bomb. The only evidence they have that he’s even interested is that he tried to buy aluminum rods from South Africa, which he didn’t get. So he’s nowhere near developing an atomic bomb. What has changed? What is the issue? They keep on telling me, Tony Blair and George W. Bush, keep on telling me ‘We’re going to make the case’ and I keep waiting for this evidence and it never surfaces.

"There is just the fact that Saddam Hussein is an evil man, we’ve known that for a long time. You see, there’s a bigger issue involved in this. And the bigger issue is a simple one: You’re not just taking out a tyrant, which he is in Iraq. The Muslim world has a unity that the Western world doesn’t understand. When you do this, you are really engaging the entire Islamic world. Samuel Huntington at Harvard has written this book that has redefined geopolitics in the twenty-first century, in which he says the twentieth century was marked by a struggle between Communism and democratic capitalism.

However, every war in the last three years has been between Muslims and non-Christians, whether they are Hindus in Pakistan and India, whether they’re in the Middle East, the question is very simply, ‘Are we moving into an era in which the entire Muslim world is at war with us?’ I’m looking at people like the King of Jordan, the sheiks in Saudi Arabia, and I’m saying quite simply this, if there is a war with Iraq, Saddam Hussein is such a hero to these people, because he’s defied the United States.

I think the political strategists are saying the indigenous people will rise up and overthrow their pro-Western kings and sheiks. I think we’re in for a much bigger thing than we think we’re talking about. But beyond all of that is the Christian thing -- I believe that Jesus said those who live by the sword shall die by the sword, I believe that Jesus said blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God, I contend that Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount calls upon us to deal with evil in a very different way than with the use of force.”

Asked about the relevance of Augustine’s Just War Theory, Campolo said: "Even if you went with the Just War Theory, it wouldn’t be justified. First of all, you can only have war if all other means have been exhausted, first rule of a just war. We haven’t exhausted it all. All negotiations have not ended. You say that these guys are tyrants, they’re liars, they’re cheats, they’re deceivers -- true. I’m not arguing that. Have you exhausted all the possibilities of negotiations, number one. Number two is, you have to ask whether the consequence of the war will do more evil that it will good. You have not convinced me that a war with Iraq and removing Hussein will result in more good than in evil.

I contend that if you remove him from office you will have in fact stirred up and raised to another level the kind of thing that is going on in Palestine. What you have going on in Palestine and Israel right now, that’s going to be expanded. And I think we’re in for several generations of conflict with the Muslim world at a violent level. The third thing is, you have to be sure that civilian casualties do not outnumber the number of casualties there are in the military. I’ve got to tell you, this war will probably have huge numbers of civilian casualties.

On September 11, there were 3,000 civilian casualties. Face it, this is not the same kind of war we used to know. Civilians are now the target of these wars, and that goes for both sides. I just don’t think we have measured up to the expectations of a Just War Theory. So even if you move from that Anabaptist, pacifist position, which I tend to hold, to a Just War Theory, the Roman Catholic Bishops in the United States have recently come out with a paper indicating that what is about to happen in Iraq does not by any means measure up to the criteria of a Just War Theory, as articulated by Augustine and John Calvin.”

Campolo was asked about whether he was a signatory to the message from Christians to President George W. Bush asking him to consider an “even-handed” policy towards Israel and the Palestinians.

“Of course, of course,” he said, adding :”We believe in a God that loves the Palestinians ever bit as much God loves the Israelis. I think that a significant portion of the Evangelical community has forgotten that. God does love the Palestinians. Consider this: the Oslo Accord, which was signed in 1994, ceded certain land to the Palestinians. No sooner was that done, within weeks after that was done, the Israeli government started establishing these settlements, not one or two, hundreds of them with tens of thousands of people on land that had just been ceded to the Palestinians. And when the Palestinians struck back with kids throwing stone sat these tanks, the Israeli soldiers fired back with live ammunition. I just saw in yesterday’s USA Today, 250 children under the age of 12 have been killed. What would happen in your country or in mine if the police fired back on rioting kids with live ammunition? “

Campolo decried the assertion that the Palestinians are deliberately placing children in harms way. “I don’t think they are. But be that as it may, even if they are, you back off, you don’t kill children. I don’t care who you are, or especially when you’re killing children, defending settlements that should not exist in land that doesn’t belong to you. That’s strong enough, isn’t it?
I mean if the tanks are there and the kids are in front of it, and I don’t think that’s an overstatement, the article yesterday in USA Today said that most of the children were innocent children caught in the crossfire. No, that’s not right. So I have some very serious questions about this, and I would have to say that Ariel Sharon -- please understand, when you get upset with terrorism, and I am, -- the State of Israel would not exist if they had not been terrorists.

Let’s go back to history and realize that after World War Two Palestine became a Protectorate of the United Kingdom. And the Israelis, the Zionists wanted to take over and get the Brits out of there . So what did they do? They carried on an endless array of terrorism, urban warfare, blew up the King David Hotel twice, killing hundreds and hundreds of innocent people. The fact that these people are yelling about terrorism right now and acting in self-righteousness, you wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for terrorism. When the Brits left, please understand what happened, that a bunch of people meeting at the United Nations in 1948, passed an edict that said we’re going to give certain land to the Israelis. How would the Brits feel is people in Iran said, ’Britain no longer belongs to you, it belongs to the Iranians, and you no longer have your rights’ – there would be an uproar.

“Please don’t get me wrong. I think that Arafat is an incompetent and corrupt man. President Clinton said to me once, 'The problem with Yasser Arafat is that he has never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.' He has had many opportunities, especially in 1999 before Clinton left office, to have a just and equitable peace with the Israelis and he didn’t do it, and he opened the door for Ariel Sharon who has come in with his oppressive military behavior in the last two-and-a-half years. I think we need to in fact say we as a nation must stand behind the right for Israel to exist as a nation within protected, safe, borders and we must in fact penalize and struggle against all forms of terrorism against the state of Israel. We must also stand against the terrorism that is being exercised against the Palestinians.

“Please understand that one-half of all foreign aid the United States gives away to the world in any given year goes to the state of Israel, eighty percent in the form of arms, so that Israel now has the fourth strongest standing army in the world. So when the Israeli tanks roll in to Ramallah what the people of Ramallah see is not Israeli tanks they see US tanks, and they see us as the oppressor, and we are the oppressor. And it’s about time we say that we’ve got enough leverage to say to Sharon ‘Stop it!’ and we have enough leverage with Arafat to say ‘Stop it!’ It’s about time we started using our muscle to make peace instead of protecting loyal interests.”

Campolo said he still sees President Bill Clinton,"from time to time, as I did when he was president. I pray with him, I visit with him, talk to him. We are working very carefully on the scenario of how he will spend his post-presidential years doing humanitarian work.

“Now he’s very active in the AIDS crisis in Africa, but he will probably move from this to his major commitment which will be micro-economic development I poor countries, creating jobs for the poor of the world through the creation of small businesses people can own and run themselves.”

Does Campolo feel he had an impact on President Clinton while he was in the White House?

“I can’t answer that, you’ll have to ask Clinton that. I was faithful in ministering to him -- I went every other week and talked to him for a couple of hours, talked scripture and, after the Lewinsky matter, tried to keep his family together. And I think there were a lot of people who were disappointed that we did keep that family together. But the family is together and has survived and that was my job -- to save a family, to minister to a guy that had messed up his life and to keep him from doing it again.

How did he feel about conservative evangelical Christians who criticized his relationship with the former president?

“I understand that, I also disapprove of it. I can see both sides. Evangelicals in the United States are so Republican, that they forget sometimes that their first allegiance is to Jesus. When Clinton called upon me to be one of his advisors, nurturing him through this spiritual crisis, there was a sense that I was lending legitimacy to a corrupt presidency, that I was giving some kind of spiritual sanctification to an administration that had lost its credibility. I was being a friend to a fallen brother. That’s enough, isn’t it?

“I don’t know what choice you have – please understand that when Jesus was here on earth the criticism that was generally leveled at him, if he was really a man of God, he wouldn’t be associating with publicans, with prostitutes, with lepers, he wouldn’t be associating with these people if he was a man of God. They saw him as lending legitimacy to those who were in cahoots with Roman authorities. They saw him as lending sanctification to those who were spiritually amiss. That’s the first thing. I think there is no choice if you’re a Christian. If a brother is in trouble, and asks for help, you have no choice but to go to that brother and to be a spiritual minister to that brother -- there’s no choice in the matter. If you say to somebody who asks you for spiritual help ‘I’m sorry, you might be using this for political purposes, therefore I’m not going to help you,’ I think you’ve sinned.

“I think you have to say, ‘I’m going to do what Jesus expects me to do.’ And if the other party is using this in an evil fashion, is taking my good intentions and twisting them for evil purposes, that person’s going to have to answer to God. I have to answer to God in following through on my commitments to serve.

“It’s interesting, I would talk to ministers and leading evangelists in this country who would say ‘Don’t you pray for that man?’ and they would say they pray for him to get saved. Well, if you want him to hear the Gospel why wouldn’t you want somebody to go and meet with him once a week to give him the Gospel. I see complete insanity at this point.

“The last thing is, what would they ask? Would they ask that we abandon this man so that nobody with a Bible in his hand goes to visit him? Would you say we should have nothing to do with this man, because he has sinned, we should cut ourselves off? What would they expect?

“One of my friends said to me quite categorically, because I was a friend of Clinton’s long before the Lewinsky scandal, and a good friend, he said ‘You’re just connecting with this man because he’s your friend.’ My reaction is, ‘But of course, isn’t that what a friend does?’ I mean a friend is somebody who’s there for you when you fall, a friend is there who picks you up when you stumble. Isn’t that what a friend is? To accuse me of sticking with this guy because I’m his friend says that my idea of what a friend is and your idea of what a friend is, is quite different. My idea of a friend is somebody who’s there when you’re righteous ands when you’re unrighteous, when you’re riding high and when you’re riding low. Obviously your idea of a friend is when you’re righteous and pure and holy , I’m with you. But if you slip and fall, don’t count on me to be there for you.

“I was the President’s friend and I did what a friend should do.”

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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<><
Ephesians 4

I've already mentioned this but the Israelites were told to attack entire nations, sometimes killing everything that had breath (at least they were supposed to). Yes this was action dictated by God and we should be VERY careful about following His will, YES we should exhaust all other means, and yes our country has slipped away from its Christian base so unless there is a change I think the power of the U.S. will continue to slip as well, and working on our internal problems is more important than any terrorists.

You might as well mention Israel again, even as they were being punished for turning from God, the countries that rejoiced at having brought them low were told that God would judge them accordingly.

I still remember the rejoicing of many middle east people after September 11, one specific man claimed that all of their leaders were Christian...

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

No country has ever been fully Christian, the question is how much of its government is controlled by Christian ethics, and how strong the Church is. This seems like the biggest problem we have, Churches are not willing to stand on the Bible as absolute truth. Humanists attack it's historical and scientific claims, and the Church says something to the effect of "we don't have to take the entire thing seriously, just the part about Jesus". Instead of supporting the entire Christian worldview, Christianity is relagated to a bunch of moral stories that everyone vaguely agrees on.

P.S.
Some of the original message seems to me like a "straw man" concerning his helping Clinton. As a conservative Christian I have a lot of problems with Clinton's administration, regardless of his past. That certainly doesn't make me think he should be cut off from Christians. Jesus came to heal the sick and not the well and so should we.

Also, regarding middle east policy, of course God loves the Moslems just as much as the Jews, but when it comes to how we treat Israel and its enemies, should we forget Genesis 12:2-3 "I will make of thee a great nation...And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee."?

How about the story of Ninevah? God said he would destroy the city and told Jonah to proclaim His message. What would have happened if they had not repented? We should not be angry like Jonah should the moslem countries repent, but have they? Have they even let the Gospel be preached in their borders? Jesus' own desciples were told to "shake the dust off their feet" should a city not receive them, and that it would be worse for that city than Sodom and Gomorrha on the day of judgment.

[This message has been edited by Crptc_Prgrmr (edited October 04, 2002).]

Something to think about.

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Ephesians 4

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Shaun Aisbitt <><
1John5:13

From my reading :
Jesus gave this message to his very first disciples, do you think it excludes you? Perhaps the fisherman of Galilee have more qualification than you? If there is more refusal to the gospel in your homeland then by all means preach to a people who is willing to listen. If this is the Islamic people I rejoice and pray for them as well as Ireland. Dust your sneakers off well...

Just to answer another question klumsy, when someone says that the U.S. was "just trying trying to look like the good guys" regarding the battle with Japan, I take that as disparaging.

Somebody said action with Iraq should be decided by the U.N.
Do you place your faith in the U.N.? I don't think this entity is entirely wrong (at least at this point in time), but its history is something to consider. At the Cairo conference for one the U.N. tried to force "population control" on all of the member countries (thankfully forced out by the Vatican). Right now it includes representatives from African slave states on the board to human rights.

One thing that bothers me with requiring a "just war" is that this could easily be used to stop action in cases where there is clearly a need to fight. By the same arguments you could easily say that the U.S. would not have had "just cause" to start battling with Hitler until after he steamrolled Poland (and with FDR in office and the nation being somewhat tired of war from WWI we did not get involved then). Hitler explicitely detailed his military plans in his writing while in prison, and yet the world would not fight him until he had accomplished most of it. We already know what Saddam will do if allowed, he is not building up his military and weapons arsenal to plant flowers in his neighbor's backyards (perhaps on their tombstones anyway). If he gets enough "weapons of mass destruction" the U.S. will have its hands tied behind its back, Saddam will take over or wipe out many countries, and the rest of the world will once again say dumbfounded, "who knew?"....

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

[This message has been edited by Crptc_Prgrmr (edited October 05, 2002).]

Having said that I believe that God is using these recent things in an attempt to wake America and bring her back to her knees before Him. America has been steady on, about kicking God out of our lives and adopting all the feel good stuff. Seems to me that Ezekiel 17 1-24 could apply here.
Granted the cptivity has already happened but the principle still applies.

Spiffy

Also onfirepreacher, before you say that the words I mentioned before were spoken along with instructions to preach only to the Israelites, clearly making parts of the instructions specific to the first disciples, check out where Paul and Barnabas took this action in Acts 13:51. We should not fear the ones who can destroy the body. But obedience is better than sacrifice so unless you can categorize your preaching's effect as better than their's in that city, you should follow this.

Mind you, I would never give you advice like this were it not from the Bible, I have never met you, I don't know what your complete situation is, I have no wisdom in myself, and I am like Paul in this respect: I am bold in my writing but not face to face.

I ask that you pray to see if what I say is my own, or if it is truth and perhaps a call to you.

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

I think we as followers of Christ should be careful who we credit or discount as a member of the fellowship based on association with "sinners". Christ, our chief example, associated extensively with "sinners". Remember the accusations from the Sadducess and Pharisees that he even ate with them? That in itself was a serious offense under their "religion". We must be careful that we aren't judging others with dirty hands when we haven't bothered to even step foot among them. I'm not directing that comment to any single person, but to the community of believers as a whole, including myself.

God Bless.

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<><
Ephesians 4

That is true Jesus was called a wine bibber (SP?) ( a drunk ) because he hung around with dudes that got drunk. We are not suppose to be judges of salvation or usefulnes to Christ, but, we are to be fruit inspectors. The fruit that I see from Mr. Campolo makes me not listen to him. I would rather listen to the likes of John McArthur, Chuck Swindol (SP?) and my personal favorite J. Vernon McGee (SP?).

No man is beyond error what makes the difference is if he admits his error and grows from it. In my mind that is the basic purpose of confessing our sin ( Error ) and growing from it. I could site examples of some who don't admit there sin ( Error ) and they arn't growing; they keep living in the pig pin that they have made of there lives. It's a shame, if they would use all the energy of trying to cover up there mess, for helping others avoid the same trap. How much better our culture would be.

IMHO the one thing that will start a spark of revival in America is the admition of Error ( SIN ) on a personal level. The place it needs to hit first is the Church! How can we as a group say we are living what we believe when divorce and abortion run neck and neck with the secular world. In some cases we are worse than they, in areas such as consumption of pornography. I heard ( on Christian radio ) about a hotel owner that hosted a christian convention and his sales of porn went thru the roof while they were there. How can we command respect with behavior like that?

Just some of what I think about.

Spiffy

God Bless.

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Ephesians 4

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

[This message has been edited by Crptc_Prgrmr (edited October 10, 2002).]