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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Fellow believers, friends and unknown acquaintances: For many weeks I've been reading the posts here and have forced myself to hold back from commenting so that I wouldn't speak in anger or frustration. I've prayed that the Lord would direct me to have loving words to bring up this problem, a problem that even I have been guilty of. I've witnessed arguments, even been involved in some, and read many discussions that do not edify or build up anyone. I have been greatly disheartened by our behavior. So often, we, who are the body of Christ, behave in a destructive way, and attack those who are also part of Christ's body. This behavior is very much like that of a malignant tumor or an auto-immune disorder. I am troubled because of what I see this doing to ourselves, our testimony, our Lord, and the world around us. I rather would like to see us grow in Christ and be effective witnesses than to be as unruly children. I am including some scripture passages for us to dwell on. Please patiently and prayerfully consider what I am saying, and even more so, what our Lord (through Paul) is saying to you. May our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, God His Father, and the Holy Spirit of Truth pour out revival in our hears and cause us to reach out in true gentleness and humility toward others, fellow Christians (regardless of persuasion and faith) and our fellow man.
2 Be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other's faults because of your love. 3 Always keep yourselves united in the Holy Spirit, and bind yourselves together with peace. 4 We are all one body, we have the same Spirit, and we have all been called to the same glorious future. 5 There is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 and there is only one God and Father, who is over us all and in us all and living through us all. 7 However, he has given each one of us a special gift according to the generosity of Christ. 8 That is why the Scriptures say, "When he ascended to the heights, he led a crowd of captives and gave gifts to his people." 9 Notice that it says "he ascended." This means that Christ first came down to the lowly world in which we live. 10 The same one who came down is the one who ascended higher than all the heavens, so that his rule might fill the entire universe. 11 He is the one who gave these gifts to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ, 13 until we come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature and full grown in the Lord, measuring up to the full stature of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be like children, forever changing our minds about what we believe because someone has told us something different or because someone has cleverly lied to us and made the lie sound like the truth. 15 Instead, we will hold to the truth in love, becoming more and more in every way like Christ, who is the head of his body, the church. 16 Under his direction, the whole body is fitted together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love. 17 With the Lord's authority let me say this: Live no longer as the ungodly do, for they are hopelessly confused. 18 Their closed minds are full of darkness; they are far away from the life of God because they have shut their minds and hardened their hearts against him. 19 They don't care anymore about right and wrong, and they have given themselves over to immoral ways. Their lives are filled with all kinds of impurity and greed. 20 But that isn't what you were taught when you learned about Christ. 21 Since you have heard all about him and have learned the truth that is in Jesus, 22 throw off your old evil nature and your former way of life, which is rotten through and through, full of lust and deception. 23 Instead, there must be a spiritual renewal of your thoughts and attitudes. 24 You must display a new nature because you are a new person, created in God's likeness – righteous, holy, and true. 25 So put away all falsehood and "tell your neighbor the truth" because we belong to each other. 26 And "don't sin by letting anger gain control over you." Don't let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 for anger gives a mighty foothold to the Devil. 28 If you are a thief, stop stealing. Begin using your hands for honest work, and then give generously to others in need. 29 Don't use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them. 30 And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he is the one who has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of malicious behavior. 32 Instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you. (Romans 14, New Living Translation)
In Christ's Love, |
c h i e f y Member Posts: 415 From: Surrey, United Kingdom Registered: 03-07-2002 |
you said "I rather would like to see us grow in Christ and be effective witnesses than to be as unruly children." "witnesses ?" I don't understand ------------------ |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
 Hello Chiefy. Read over this to understand what I meant by that:(Hebrews 12, New Living Translation) 4 After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin. 5 And have you entirely forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you, his children? He said, "My child, don't ignore it when the Lord disciplines you, and don't be discouraged when he corrects you. 6 For the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes those he accepts as his children." 7 As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Whoever heard of a child who was never disciplined? 8 If God doesn't discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children after all. 9 Since we respect our earthly fathers who disciplined us, should we not all the more cheerfully submit to the discipline of our heavenly Father and live forever? 10 For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God's discipline is always right and good for us because it means we will share in his holiness. 11 No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening – it is painful! But afterward there will be a quiet harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way. 12 So take a new grip with your tired hands and stand firm on your shaky legs. 13 Mark out a straight path for your feet. Then those who follow you, though they are weak and lame, will not stumble and fall but will become strong. 14 Try to live in peace with everyone, and seek to live a clean and holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord. 15 Look after each other so that none of you will miss out on the special favor of God. Watch out that no bitter root of unbelief rises up among you, for whenever it springs up, many are corrupted by its poison. 16 Make sure that no one is immoral or godless like Esau. He traded his birthright as the oldest son for a single meal. 17 And afterward, when he wanted his father's blessing, he was rejected. It was too late for repentance, even though he wept bitter tears. 18 You have not come to a physical mountain, to a place of flaming fire, darkness, gloom, and whirlwind, as the Israelites did at Mount Sinai when God gave them his laws. 19 For they heard an awesome trumpet blast and a voice with a message so terrible that they begged God to stop speaking. 20 They staggered back under God's command: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death." 21 Moses himself was so frightened at the sight that he said, "I am terrified and trembling." 22 No, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to thousands of angels in joyful assembly. 23 You have come to the assembly of God's firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge of all people. And you have come to the spirits of the redeemed in heaven who have now been made perfect. 24 You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which graciously forgives instead of crying out for vengeance as the blood of Abel did. 25 See to it that you obey God, the one who is speaking to you. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, how terrible our danger if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven! 26 When God spoke from Mount Sinai his voice shook the earth, but now he makes another promise: "Once again I will shake not only the earth but the heavens also." 27 This means that the things on earth will be shaken, so that only eternal things will be left. 28 Since we are receiving a Kingdom that cannot be destroyed, let us be thankful and please God by worshiping him with holy fear and awe. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
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SpiffyDinosaur Member Posts: 29 From: MO, USA Registered: 09-28-2002 |
@ Nfektious Thank you! I noticed this same thing. How can the salt become salty once it has lost it's saltyness. The delema is how do we correct error without sounding like some form of ogre. On some other message boards I have struggled with this exact thing. ( they are secular ) I struggle to develope grace and love and above all honesty in my posting. That way if I am wrong or in error it's because of my ignorance. Life is short we must make the most of it while we can. Spiffy |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Thanks Spiffy. One thing I've noticed about the struggle between my natural self and the spiritual self is this: the more the spiritual self is increased the harder the natural self fights against change. The battle is not easy in any sense. Keep the faith and do not become discouraged by the negative attitudes of others around you. We as diligent believers have a hope that is like no other. We must look to that hope even when circumstances seem impossible or even improbable to what we know in our natural senses. Miracles do happen all the time; sometimes they aren't large, awesome, spectacular events that are plain to see. The cool thing about miracles: you never know when they will happen, but when they do happen you just simply understand. God Bless. ------------------ |
InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
amen ------------------ |
MaxX Member Posts: 77 From: New Jersey, USA Registered: 07-30-2002 |
Compared to the rabid debates on CGA's forum, this forum is disneyland. |
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SpiffyDinosaur Member Posts: 29 From: MO, USA Registered: 09-28-2002 |
"Compared to the rabid debates on CGA's forum, this forum is disneyland." Good lets set the example for civil discusion and reason. It has to start somewere. It might as well be here. Spiffy |
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MadProf Member Posts: 181 From: Larnaka, Cyprus Registered: 01-24-2001 |
Heh Disneyland as a forum, what a fun idea  You have to queue 3 hours in order to read popular topics, I acutally went to disneyland once... about 8 years ago. I think MadProf ------------------ |
Crptc_Prgrmr Member Posts: 169 From: Registered: 02-05-2002 |
Those cartoony people were probably the security attempting to haul you off.. You obviously went at a different time, we just visited and most of the lines were around ten minutes long (some we just walked into ------------------ Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine... |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
May someone please put the rabbit back where it belongs? It amazes me how often serious topics go off on tangents. Sigh. ------------------ |
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Crptc_Prgrmr Member Posts: 169 From: Registered: 02-05-2002 |
Yes, well a cheerful heart is good medicine. God has shown a sense of humor more than once. Have you ever read about Jesus joining two traveling disciples after his death, without letting them know who he was? No doubt he had other reasons for this as well, but do you think the humor in it was lost on him or the disciples? Or how about Elijah, making fun of the pagan worshippers trying to call fire from heaven, saying that perhaps their God was sleeping, or traveling, or busy... Anyway, the original message was a good one to remind everyone of. ------------------ Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine... |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
Yes, I'm well aware of the irony and sarcasm throughout the Bible. However, it was always used in an instructional manner; the end result was a display of the power and majesty of God. Forgive me for sounding hard-hearted here, but the off-topic comments should be placed in a separate thread to avoid causing distraction. I don't have a problem with people joking and jesting - but there is a time and a place. Why don't we try to consider the weight of a subject before replying without giving thought to our words? This sort of disruption is akin to standing up in the middle of a church service and telling a joke about something unrelated to the sermon. The attitude indicates a lack of attention to the subject at hand as well as the lack of common decency toward others who are respectfully pondering the topic - not to mention the other effects of such behavior. Again, I apologize for rebuking those involved in this issue; the new topic button is just as easy to press as the reply button - it just takes a little bit of consideration. This is just one simple example of why I posted the original message. I enjoy a good laugh just like everyone else around here. I just think that we each would benefit more from the camaraderie and fellowship if we paid more attention to things (being considerate, exhibiting kindness, proving gentleness, correcting and reproving one another with humility, etc...above all being the loving Christians toward one another we are supposed to be) than generally abusing the privilege we have using this website. Considering how often flame wars have erupted and the topics concerned, Krylar and the other moderators have been very gracious. I am not requesting there to be restrictive controls (ie, censorship) enforced because we all should be able to restrain ourselves when necessary and be open to correction and forgiving one another as need be. How many people have apologized over the personal attacks that have ocurred here in the last 3 months? Where is the example we so quietly claim to display to each other and others who watch this site? Think about it and make a difference. God Bless. ------------------ |
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SpiffyDinosaur Member Posts: 29 From: MO, USA Registered: 09-28-2002 |
I was looking thru past threads,I found one related to Krylar and his Father being put to rest. It started very well with kind comments, but soon degraded into a discussion of songs and bands. I wanted to post a comment, but now the topic has been defiled. My post would get lost in some way off topic discussion. If there is something of import that you want to discuss UH.......... start a new thread. When I saw that I just got a little P.O.'ed. IMHO Krylar deserves far more respect. He is gracious enough to have this site for us and how do we repay him? I wonder if this is another reason the secular world dosen't pay any attention to christians. We can't stay focused on any one thing longer than a breth or two. Sure seems the anti's stay focused and on course why can't we? Spiffy |
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Crptc_Prgrmr Member Posts: 169 From: Registered: 02-05-2002 |
Well the point wins in the end, stick to the topics. On that discussion with Krylar about his father, I unintentionally started the spinoff by mentioning some lyrics from a song that seemed relavent, soon after I did start a seperate topic to discuss music, so don't go pointing fingers too quickly. I do apologize anyway. I grew up in an environment where Christianity was (and is) our life. I just don't feel that I have to shout and preach Christianity in everything I say, its just there, a part of me. Whether I'm joking or serious that doesn't go away. The orginal message is a good one but it seemed a bit overbearing, it's a serious charge to be saying that everyone here has not been speaking out of love before, perhaps it is true and God searches our hearts, but lets not get too upetty about it unless we are sure. I have very recently heard Creationists lumped in with Idol worshipers by a Christian during my discussions, I can't help but feel that all of this is why Jesus used the term hypocrite so often. Many Christians seem to be too willing to slam other Christians, then use a few verses from the Bible to ward off rebuke. Serious charges should not be made lightly.
Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine... [This message has been edited by Crptc_Prgrmr (edited October 10, 2002).] |
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
CP - I can't help but conclude you took the words I have spoken other than clearly indicated and intended. If you want to chat about it, contact me and I'll be happy to converse with you more. God Bless. [This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited October 10, 2002).] |
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Crptc_Prgrmr Member Posts: 169 From: Registered: 02-05-2002 |
It seems all in all I just reiterated what you said originally. My main complaint was with the post that compared off-topic coversing with interupting a sermon. Was there more to say? Then I shall continue... There will be disagreements between Christians, so I don't see the problem on these forums as having been the heated debates. If we were all lukewarm then we would not get into so many. The problem has clearly been attacking people rather than ideas. This is the main rule of debate, one which is so often ignored, attack ideas and not people. I may not like your tie but that has nothing to do with our debate. Remember, even Paul and Barnabas had a disagreement so sharp that they left company (over Mark). We should try to be reconciled in every way possible, but lets not stifle debate between sincere Christians on serious issues. ------------------ Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine... |
Torial Member Posts: 73 From: Cedar Rapids, Ia, USA Registered: 07-23-2002 |
Matt, Thank you for writing this. Your post echoes concerns that I have been having as well. ------------------ |
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Torial Member Posts: 73 From: Cedar Rapids, Ia, USA Registered: 07-23-2002 |
Some Scripture that seems relevant to this topic is: Phillipians 2:1-15 (I've included it below). (I admit that I am partial to this Scripture as it was part of my wedding:-) ). I agree w/ CP (esp. regarding the need to avoid the Ad Hominem) w/ a few caveats : Phillipians 2 talks about trying to be like minded, and having the mind of Jesus. Really powerful stuff, and it seem applicable to this topic. (Broken record, I know.) I like what InsanePoet has done w/ the CollectiveWorks, where he has gotten believers to work together on a game. If non-believers saw more of that, rather than of debates and name callings.. I think some of the barriers that they have would be removed. I hope this is taken in the spirit intended ;-) Anyways, I'll probably go into Sheol-lurk mode for a month or two as I have increased time requirements at home. Sean 1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, ------------------ [This message has been edited by Torial (edited October 11, 2002).] |
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Crptc_Prgrmr Member Posts: 169 From: Registered: 02-05-2002 |
Most definately Torial, Like I've said before I've got a discussion going between me and some fellow college students on evolution. Several of them are theistic evolutionists, and recently one has said that creationists are like the Israelites who would have had Moses attend to the Golden Calf. It's a good thing that I've made the policy of waiting to respond, because then I tend to speak out of love rather than the anger I feel from stupid comments. I have told him not to make such pronouncements quickly becuase this is a serious charge, one that led to death for the Israelites. His main point was that we live by faith, a valid point. I have also pointed out what creationist scientists have said about that, clearly showing the faith required for both evolution and creation. Finally I pointed to a verse that clearly states that it is by faith that we know that God created the universe out of nothing at his command. I made a number of other points, but all in all I didn't speak out of the anger I felt at first. ------------------ Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine... |
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c h i e f y Member Posts: 415 From: Surrey, United Kingdom Registered: 03-07-2002 |
quote: I understand your point but I think it's overstated I don't agree that the topic was defiled and I don't agree that your post would be lost - you simply go back to an early post in the thread, pick one that is appropriate to your intended reply, quote a part of that early post and hey - presto, the thread is back on track I believe that far too many people feel a "possession" or "ownership" of a thread, simply because they started it in my opinion - as soon as a thread is started, it can go off on any tangent at all, provided it complies with site rules of decency, flaming that's my opinion, you may disagree of course, regards ------------------ from your old mate |
D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
I agree, let the conversation go in whatever direction it takes, until it burns out... anyways im sure threads can be moved by the administrator (Krylar), right? --D-SIPL |
rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
Ok - just read whole thread ... As someone who has been in most of the major arguments at CCN in the past year or so I do want to apologize for when I have clearly not posted out of love, but intellectual pride instead. And I pray I haven't done any lasting damage. The truth is I am not entirely sure what Jesus would do if he were posting on CCN. I believe we have a duty to each other to instruct and correct, and a duty to the non-believing people who browse these boards to not leave potentially damaging unchristian statements unchallenged. I also don't think that posting out of love is about talking sweetly, but genuinely seeking the good of others. It is clear looking through old threads when posts were not born of love. Such posts usually use sarcasm, dishonesty and personal attacks to make their point. I think it's a direct result of this that people rarely post requests for prayer and advice. People won't open up if they feel their going to be judged or have their faith questioned. But it should be one of the major functions of this site to provide loving ministry to its members. Again I apologize for my part in this. God Bless. ------------------ |
Krylar Administrator Posts: 502 From: MD, USA Registered: 03-05-2001 |
Hiya,
quote: Yep, I can move them now
quote: Good point. One thing is for sure, I wouldn't even think of moving/deleting His posts...Admin or not, ya gotta let certain folks talk, ya know? All: I've always found that when you look at flame wars, it eventually comes down to pride issues. After awhile, the original topic is lost and it's just a case of wanting to BE right regardless of whether or not you ARE right. Hard lesson to learn, but I do believe this is one of God's reasons for hating prideful people...they typically will refuse to accept truth if it in any way threatens their world. All the best, -Krylar ------------------ |
praiseJesus Junior Member Posts: 6 From: Registered: 11-13-2002 |
Ah, Praise Jesus - I know that He is Lord, even though I, a man, cannot know it of myself -- that I cannot know it of myself is itself proof that I know things from Him who is not me, but truly my Master Who is over me, because I know something that is beyond me, praise His holy name!!! Jesus Christ is Lord! Let's tell the world, with conviction; Let's remind each other, with all sorts of buildings up, so that we know that we have our conviction ourselves.. Praise Jesus Christ in Heaven - He has changed me from very evil, to forgetting my former evil, and remember His love, and His salvation that He has for me, and all that justification He has for me and for us all who believe in our hearts the Lord Jesus Christ, and that God has raised Him from the dead and who also confess with our mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord and who are therefore saved!! Praise His holy name!! Jesus Christ is Lord! Hahaa. My brothers and sisters in our mutual Lord, Master, and Saviour Jesus Christ Who sits at the right hand of God the Father in Heaven, praise His name with each other continually, and privately - alone with God, you thinking about Him as you know that He sees you and has promised that you, his sheep, will hear His, the Shepherd's, voice, and indeed knowing that all the promises of God are true and reflecting on all of God's true promises for hope, and faith with all love as He has directed - seek Him, and continue with Him in love with all the fruit of the Holy Spirit (love, joy, peace and so on..don't forget patience, endurance and self-control.. ), believing Him that He has not only the life of Christ, but also the power of Christ for His body with the gifts of the Holy Spirit - and not only the power, but also the life, together as one body, of which we who are called by His name, are all members, and of which He is the Head (the Head tells the Body what to do...) Praise God, remember children, that they don't worry much (unless it's been put onto them very much or something out of the ordinary is present). Become like little children, as the Word of God says. and have peace and joy and love. I just got finished, not too long ago, dealing out all sorts of harsh angry things to the world and the Church, God's people. I know that it wasn't even necessary (let alone all the implicit evil of tearing down and all the other things that I did evilly with it) -- it wasn't even necessary, even though I thought I was doing God's work and helping Him. Praise Jesus Christ' holy name, indeed! and praise God for all His mercy and forgiveness and grace!!! All praise and all worship and all glory to the King of kings and Lord of lords, Jesus Christ - OUR Lord! Praise His holy name! One more thing - I think of the wicked servant of Jesus' parable, who hid his money and didn't do anything, because he was afraid of the Master, that He would be overbaring and such..is he the same wicked servant who thrashed the fellow servants? I don't know if it's from the same parable. Do one of you? But I do think that if we are serving God, we won't be looking for any fellow servants faults, but only our own - then we will be happy and joyous enough with the grace of God on our lives, that we will not be persuaded to do any type of judging of our fellow servants. Praise God in Heaven, Who has thought of every contingency! Praise His holy name!! Jeremy |
silicon_chippy Member Posts: 208 From: Scotland Registered: 10-26-2002 |
If Jesus commanded it , so shall it be done. I am not the way, I am not the truth and I am not the light. If Jesus requested it, so shall it be done. I don't care if we agree or disagree, the important thing is to read the BIBLE. ------------------ |
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praiseJesus Junior Member Posts: 6 From: Registered: 11-13-2002 |
I agree.. (because God has made me to see that it is the truth. Truth is universal, not what we think, feel or will...) ..read the Bible, because it's God's Word, the holy Scriptures, that He gave to us, so that we could know His Word. We can know through the Bible what God's will is for us for our everyday lives, and what God's plan is for humanity (and other things, too ). Do you think that we can, while being close to God, knowing His will -- that under the circumstance of being with God, wanting His will as our own, that we can then represent, or talk about, the Way, the Truth and the Life that we know so closely, even though we still don't know "even as also we are known"? Read the Bible, and pray ceaselessly, and get closer and closer to God for the whole course of our lives here on Earth. If we know God is with us, because of His promises and not because we arrive at any point where we are finally "with God" or "close to God", but if we know God is with us -- then we will allow Him to speak through us -- both our lives and our mouths (what is in your heart, is what WILL come out of your mouth -- another promise from God!! )What do you think? |
