god bless america

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from your old mate
c h i e f y
global chiefy to yer old seadog seafarin' mateys

why not access chiefy's NEW worklogs ?

May our prayers be with everyone who's directly suffered because of this tragedy.

God bless you all,

-Krylar

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HoMaH :P

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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HoMaH :P

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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HoMaH :P

We bombed Nagaski and Hiroshima TO END WW2. I don't know what happy world you come from where "everyone is right".

So, you can loathe America all you want, but when 3000 innoncent people die in your country...
I supposed you're going to say that "we deserved it", ok you can tell that to the widow who just lost thier husband in Trade center, when she is absolutly crushed you can go tell her that she deserved it.

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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HoMaH :P

I don't believe the U.S. has always acted in the best ways regarding foreign affairs, but that only goes so far.

Propoganda aside, people under those countries you named off weren't any happier with their tyrants than we were.

People who latch onto Nagasaki and Heroshima forget a few minor details. One, Pearl Harbor. Hitting the base before declaring war was tactically brilliant, but killed a lot of people who were doing nothing but mopping decks and doing paperwork. Second, the Japanese were extremely tough fighters, they would have fought until the last man had the nukes not given a sharp blow. Third, the two nuclear bombs were dropped seperately, it was not until after the second bomb that the government gave up. Fourth, Japan was well along in their nuclear weapons development, and what would you like to bet they would have used once it was operational? And yes they had the means to deliver, they actually hit America several times using balloons and the wind patterns, as well as submarines.

BTW, how about making the people in Australia all pay because of the slaughter of the Aboriginies?

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

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HoMaH :P

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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HoMaH :P

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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HoMaH :P

------------------
"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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HoMaH :P

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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HoMaH :P

I've seen the worlds opinion of American, they think we are a bunch of thick headed barbarians who force their way.
Sure, my country isn't perfect, but people like Hussian and bin ladin are evil and must be stopped.

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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HoMaH :P

for what ?

I LOVE NEW YORK

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from your old mate
c h i e f y
global chiefy to yer old seadog seafarin' mateys

why not access chiefy's NEW worklogs ?

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HoMaH :P

who are you kidding ?

well I don't want to argue the toss, a lot of sad truth has been given in this thread and I understand; but prefer to use the time to grieve

I was in New York just a couple of short years after the Twin Towers had been built! I cannot believe they're now levelled

long live big apple

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from your old mate
c h i e f y
global chiefy to yer old seadog seafarin' mateys

why not access chiefy's NEW worklogs ?

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HoMaH :P

Do you really think that Saddam Hussain is willing to sit down and talk this through... no way. He wants to rule, and he will use anything in his stockpile to do it. He knows that we aren't able (due to UN peacekeeping laws) to develop weapons biological weapons, so already he has the upper-hand. He needs to be taken down full stop.

I feel for America, they didn't deserve this. I've never known such lovely, hospitable people in my life. Yes they make mistakes, but they helped us during WW2, and if it wasn't for them the world would be a very different place.

As cheify said... God Bless America!

--D-SIPL

quote:

---

(we stopped the japanize from invading Australia).

---

No you didn't. There was no plan for the Japanese to invade Australia, and the Americans did nothing to help Australia in WW@ beyond what was in their own interest. Britain was equally willing to drop us, had we been invaded.

This seems an emotional topic at the moment, and most Americans seem beyond hope of reason regarding their countries failings, but nevertheless, that is the truth of the matter. The lack of reason or logic in much of what has been said in favour of America on this thread leaves me hesitant to comment further.

I rarely edit my posts, but I should add that the US has my full sympathy for what occured last year, and while I agree that what happened was the result of years of US meddling in other countries affairs, the people who meddled where not the people who were hurt, which just makes it more of a tragedy.

[This message has been edited by MeanManInOz (edited September 11, 2002).]

quote:

---

Britain was equally willing to drop us, had we been invaded.

---

So America if you don't want to be attacked stop "meddling" in other country's business. So the next time their country's in trouble don't help them, they'll come crying back in no time!! And your be branded un-sympathetic and heartless... looks like you can't win. Good job us Brits back you all the way!

Go get 'em boys!!!

--D-SIPL

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HoMaH :P

The term "wake up and smell the coffee" comes to mind.

--D-SIPL

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HoMaH :P

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
No you didn't. There was no plan for the Japanese to invade Australia

---

I won't cover the rest of the thread, but will make an observation on the quote.

If a country loses a war and surrenders, don't you think they would shred or burn their "War plans" prior to surrender? Only God and the Japanese leaders really knew what their plans were.

and a pray

-Lord, we pray that your kingdom comes quickly and that all believers be lifted up. Keep us all safe from the evil one.
Amen

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Called by God. The passioned plea of a father. The journey awaits at Jarod Journey's.

[This message has been edited by graceworks (edited September 11, 2002).]

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...

[This message has been edited by SaintA2J (edited April 17, 2007).]

Cheify, you say you don't want to start an argument, then go on to call all Americans arrogant and greedy. I know of better ways to avoid fights. What I really don't see is how you can stand there and basically say that the world's problems are all due to America, and I know you're not the only one doing so. You say the wars America gets into are all about power, money, and oil. Guess what those leaders in the Middle East have consistently done with their oil wealth? They buy weapons to hit their neighbors with. While most of the people remain poor as dirt these maniacs buy bigger and bigger bombs and live in luxery. You also selectively neglect the other assault we have continued on all of the countries you named off, that of humanitarian aid. Entire wings of the Air Force have agressively flown food and other aid into these oppressive countries, why do you not mention this point? I know Bush is not perfect, but you know what? He's done a far sight better than Clinton ever did, he has stood against abortion (which has killed off more people than any of those wars) and other issues that past presidents stayed away from.

I will even say that in many regards Americans have been spoiled and greedy. Most of our country has left the original thought of "One Nation Under God", kids grow up with things rather than parents, and what do you expect as a result? You assert that all our prosperity is due to stealing? First I think our "prosperity" has been over-rated, most people are now double-income and barely making as much as their parents with inflation. Second I think we are still riding on the prosperity God gave us becuase we were a God-fearing nation to begin with.

But past all of this, Americans still have a right to grieve, just as the people of Japan did, just as the people caught in the crossfire of the Middle East do, life is life.

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

I can't believe what I am hearing. How can we really understand all of this from the perspective of the world? Remember that our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against demonic forces! God, in his sovereignty, has allowed Satan power to cause destruction! Why? I believe that ultimately God is allowing the world to be raised up against
Israel so ultimately the Jewish people will call out to him in their hopelessness and be saved according to Romans 11 and Zechariah 12. As a Jewish believer, I am stating that it is God's plan to save my stubborn and stiff-necked Jewish people and bring them back into the kingdom. If people get stuck in the little details, they will ultimately fail to see that God has allowed Satan to rise up in power through Islam to accomplish his will. We need to ultimately recognize what is really happening and direct our prayers in this way because the whole thing will play out as God acts in accordance to the prayers that he has put into the true believers in Jesus. So what I am saying is we need try to stop understanding this whole thing from the perspective of physical world events or we will miss the bigger picture that God is painting. And yes, ultimatley this is about God allowing Satan and the demonic forces to come up against him in order for him to use them to accomplish his will.

I might not be too popular with this view, but that's life. I think that people have the right to grieve over this, alot of people died then, alot of people die everyday. I don't hate/dislike the people that drove the planes into the buildings, I don't hate/dislike the people who planned it out or who support it all the way. I feel compassion for them because they are people who are lead astray and need Jesus, not to be shot up. We shouldn't be marching around calling them 'the enemy' and heavily promoting thier destruction, I worry about the people being military extremist and wanting to bomb the crap out of everything so they feel better about what happened. I just hope that whatever humbling effect 9/11 had on Americans (or other people) would grow, stay and extend to others. I don't know for sure why the attacks happened, I have several thoughts of why it did, but I'm going to sit on them for a bit and might talk on them later, whatever I'm led to do.

God help people.

I dont have time to say much but I think it can be simply put, "Venegance is Mine" sayth the Lord. Judge not lest ye shell be judged.

God bless you bretheren and may we all seek to be more like Jesus.
Angel

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2Samuel C6 V14, Psalm C149-150, Ecclesiastes C9 V5, Ezekiel C2-3&C39, Matthew C6 V25, Luke C19 V11, 1Corinthians C13, Galatians C5 V22, Ephesians C3 V9, Colossians C1 V16, 1Peter C3 V3, Revelations C10

Peace to all of you - especially to those among us who lost loved ones in the events of September 11, 2001. As well I wish to extend peace to those who have suffered from any other tragic events of past history - whether of historical significance or not.
It is easy for us as human beings to become caught up in the emotional results of war or even the simple complexities of living what we call real life.
Even so, as Christians, it is not something we should ignore; rather, we should remember that God is working His will and not ours. We have no place to question His actions. I would pray that every one of us keep our heart on guard to be certain we individually are in the proper place of fellowship with Him and then - and only then - will we be able to relate to those around us in the attitude of peace, hope and love that we are supposed to.

May God bless all of you and yours - now in moments of grief, in trials and tribulations, and in years to come living in service of Him.

Matt

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

danno, well said. We really do need to stop thinking of these things in human terms. Satan and our own sin is ultimately the cause for all of the trouble in the world, nothing more, nothing less.

I'd also agree about Israel, I think God will let the countries go against it. I have a Jewish uncle who seems to have pretty much left any faith, I hope he will find Jesus someday.

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

peace

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HoMaH :P

danno - our fight is not with flesh and blood, but with the ways of this world. There are no 'demonic forces', there is only free will, Satan's power being to encourage us to use it to do unGodly things. God's plan is to restore Israel in the next age, but He didn't need to blow up the twin towers to do it. All this 'God allowing Satan and his demonic forces' stuff is a fiction, it's not in the Bible. Satan is fallen and he seeks others to fall with him, he doesn't deserve anything but contempt. He cannot affect anyone who walks in the Spirit.

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

Regarding Satan, just read Daniel and Revelation as well as Jesus' own discussion on the end times. Satan has a bit more power than you credit. Finish the verse anyway. "...but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

Next up im germen, I think we all know were that can lead too heh. After that im english bloody red cotes we should shoot them all. Then I decend from the highlanders. Thats right im of roil blood but who gives a white pare of panties about that? Oh thats right I opressed myself.

Then lets see the bull about people hating us from other nations. Yes some do and then some love us to death. So blah blah thats nice. I remmember seeing some chines guys who visited texas and they think hichs are the true usa. I guess if they want to belive that its fine. Then some chick from idia was here and she said she loved the usa too... other then the fact that we eat there god who is a cow but hay she got along nicly.

Im also a norshman but oh well. Kinda think of it it was the romans that had blond white slaves. Oh my im white that means I was opressed by the easteners I should go blow up their places of busness without wornning.

You know I love Japanimation and I have met some japanese people and they are nice people. I dont think im going to hold a gruge over perl harber. Heh then there was that wack kid from china that said they where the ones to drop the h bomb on New York. Good stuff I tell you.

Then lets go back to koria... I know someone on this bord that has two kids from there and acording to him he loves them dearly. So who gives a flip about natinality. You people are so busy having a peeing contest you have forgoton what the meaning of life is in the first place.

All and all a good laugh. Keep up the work and keep me giggling my head off with the rest of my famly.

Love ya
-Angel-

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2Samuel C6 V14, Psalm C149-150, Ecclesiastes C9 V5, Ezekiel C2-3&C39, Matthew C6 V25, Luke C19 V11, 1Corinthians C13, Galatians C5 V22, Ephesians C3 V9, Colossians C1 V16, 1Peter C3 V3, Revelations C10

It's just when atrositiies like 9/11 occur, it disturbs me when people say that we deserved it.

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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2Samuel C6 V14, Psalm C149-150, Ecclesiastes C9 V5, Ezekiel C2-3&C39, Matthew C6 V25, Luke C19 V11, 1Corinthians C13, Galatians C5 V22, Ephesians C3 V9, Colossians C1 V16, 1Peter C3 V3, Revelations C10

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"If I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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HoMaH :P

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angel:
Then lets go back to koria... I know someone on this bord that has two kids from there and acording to him he loves them dearly. So who gives a flip about natinality. You people are so busy having a peeing contest you have forgoton what the meaning of life is in the first place.

---

That would be me. I'm mostly German mix, my wife Irish, German, and a bit native American. Our two adopted kids are more pure than we are, odds are good they are 96%+ pure Korean! We love them! It is quite obvious from their personalities that God hand-picked them for us!

Hey Angel ... God loves you, your wife and your unborn babe! And so do I!

-Tim

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Called by God. The passioned plea of a father. The journey awaits at Jarod Journey's.

quote:

---

Regarding Satan, just read Daniel and Revelation as well as Jesus' own discussion on the end times.

---

If you mean read comic book interpretations of Daniel and Revelation that ignore the rest of the Bible, I've heard them

quote:

---

Satan has a bit more power than you credit. Finish the verse anyway. "...but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

---

What translation is that ? Our fight has always been about this worlds way of doing things - that is what the mark of the beast is on the head and hand, doing and thinking according to the ways of this world. And it is there that our struggle is. Not with flesh and blood, not with invisible boogie men either. In our own heads. The Bible lists all the things that cannot seperate us from the love of God. Height, depth, you name it. The only thing not listed is ourself. We can take ourself from the love of God if we choose to, the devil is called the 'prince of the air' in the bible, and his 'power' is of the air - words and thoughts, that allow us to be 'draw away of our own lusts and enticed'. Even in Job he had to ask permission before being able to do anything. Do you think God gave His SON so He could raise up a people and allow the devil to attack them ?

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HoMaH :P

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angel:
Mark 5:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom

Angel

---

Have you yet to decide, the cause of this despicable crime ?

EVIL is the cause, absolute evil in wholly criminal men's minds, simple as that

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from your old mate
c h i e f y
global chiefy to yer old seadog seafarin' mateys

why not access chiefy's NEW worklogs ?

Oh yeh and being half German, oh well suppose someone has to be... j/k!

--D-SIPL

Oh I had a personal tragity I want to shear with you peeps. My AC broke before the weekend hit. My wife was in a fuss and we had no cash to get a new one or that one fixed. God sent a lot of rain ^_^ so that cooled us down over the weekend. Then it was hot for one day but we had gotten used to it. After that a nice guy named Jack put us in some free parts and yesterday we had AC again. So there is good stuff going on down here :P

Sence this all got political here maybe I could ask a qustion. I have never taken the pleg of aligence to the flag of the usa. I have one reason why. That is becase I dont see why I should owe my aligence to a bit of cloth? Anyone else feel that way? Dont get me wrong I love my contriy but I dont get that pleg.

Good Humor and Good laughs mates
-Angel-

"Oy we are turning into hobbits" J/K

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2Samuel C6 V14, Psalm C149-150, Ecclesiastes C9 V5, Ezekiel C2-3&C39, Matthew C6 V25, Luke C19 V11, 1Corinthians C13, Galatians C5 V22, Ephesians C3 V9, Colossians C1 V16, 1Peter C3 V3, Revelations C10

--D-SIPL

Okay, how about some more questions to the Austalian team?

As I've already said I won't defend my country for actions in the past or present that shouldn't have been made. Many Indians were pushed around and killed during the settlement of our country, which I would never excuse. One of my ancestors fought on the Union side of the Civil War and at a worse time my maternal Grandmother once let a black man have her seat on a bus while most of the other passengers acted stupid. So go ahead and tell me of history you are not a part of.

I notice you neglected one major point on the nuclear bombs used on Japan. To be more specific, they were dropped three days apart. The first hit about a mile in diameter, and killed somewhere around 100,000 people, around the same number as many strikes over Germany by conventional bombs. The second was on much more uneven terrain and killed roughly 40,000, 3 days after the first bomb. So, tell me if this was unecessary, why didn't Japan surender after Nagasaki?

Tell me who was killed by Big Bad America during Vietnam? The Viet Cong? They were just innocently stepping over that border weren't they. How about the Gulf War? Yes we killed a fair number of Saddam's military, boy, I guess they were just keeping their neighbors company. Why, we even hit some military targets where Saddam had stuffed his only people as protection (why that could even be propoganda). Of course in any of these wars many mistakes happen and innocent people are in fact killed.

But who are you protecting? The people who cause these wars by innocently wiping others out? Would you protect Hitler's running over Poland as well? What about the millions killed in Russia and China? I must be deaf, I don't hear anyone crying out "Make them pay" to these countries that have massacred millions.

Who are you protecting?

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

quote:

---

Originally posted by homer:
do you think iraq would feel they needed nukes if they wernt held down by the US?.....america has created most of the problems we face in this world today, thats a fact.........

---

homer as you raised the grim prospects of nuclear offense

do you think that IRAQ should be "allowed" to arm themselves with NUCLEAR WEAPONS ?

YES OR NO ?

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from your old mate
c h i e f y
global chiefy to yer old seadog seafarin' mateys

why not access chiefy's NEW worklogs ?

I know everyone has different views on things here, which is why I haven't closed this topic yet. All I ask is that there be NO flame posts going back and forth. State your opinion, be passionate, but don't flame.

Thank you.

-Krylar

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Amen.

In Love and Truth,
Matt

[ this post was made prior to Krylar's post. sorry Krylar ]

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited September 12, 2002).]

One thing related to an earlier post:
http://fas.org/nuke/guide/japan/nuke/
I was told that believing Japan was working on a nuclear bomb during World War Two was propoganda, well this is only one of the places that tells the story, take a look and see if this is made up...

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

cryptc, i dont belive any nation on this earth should have nuclear weapons...but whos to say america is right for holding the key to the descrution of this earth and iraq's wrong? one thing you have to understand is sadamm hussain may dictate his people but george bush DICTATES the WORLD....i think all nuclear weapons should be destroyed its a deadly cat & mouse game and its going to come to head sooner or later...now america started this arm's race i could go on and on but im not going to.....i guess you will see the facts how you want to and live with your own reality....anyway we shouldnt be fighting about this i belive as christians we are stronger united not fighting but i felt there where some things that needed to be said....i will keep them to myself from now on.......

peace

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HoMaH :P

quote:

---

Tell me who was killed by Big Bad America during Vietnam? The Viet Cong? They were just innocently stepping over that border weren't they.

---

You must be joking. Vietnam was about a US puppet head of state in the South, and the people of Vietnam wanting to be free to choose their own style of government, which happened to be communist. It was about the spread of communism, not the rights of anyone there. And who did the US kill ? A lot of women and children, a lot of the time. The North was supported by the local villagers a lot of the time, so they helped them, and the US HAD to kill entire villages to be sure. The war was always dirty and unjust, I don't blame the poor guys sent to fight it. But from a historical perspective, the US cannot claim any moral right in what they did.

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HoMaH :P

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HoMaH :P

"Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, ..." 1Cor13:6&7

This discussion has been about several ideologies, communism, islam, US govment's and Christianity.

Communism was quite oppresive to Christianity. It was also very oppresive to its own people thats why it fell. My wife was from a communist country and grew up in the communist system. There were some things that she liked about it. Free school, free medical, the place that you worked would provide a house. But there were problems, they couldn't assmeble or speek freely, you had to wait in lines to buy stuff, all of their stuff was junk. If you wanted the doctor to care about you, you had to give him a bribe same for the teachers, and everybody, a bribe not to pervert justice but just to get them to do their jobs, much like capitalism's version of the paycheck. So, the ruler of my wife's country ended up hanging from a light post or something like that. Communism had a vision to take over the world and they did take over half of it. Its biggest flaw the persicution of its own people it promised equality but was more like prison.

Islam has a world vision of every nation being an islamic state. It is very hostile to Christianity. Try preaching the truth in an islamic state and you'll find yourself martered very quick if your from that country, or say someone wants to convert to Christanity pretty much a death sentance.

The US Govment just tries to protect its interest, the US still takes about 20% of its oil from Iraq. The five ultimatiums given by GWB today seemed quite resonable why would Saddam not comply? Could his heart be hardened against reason? Probably. Will his maddness cause war? Lets watch and hope peace will provail.

Christianity is different. For us its a really bad thing when the unsaved die. But we must protect and work for the greater good. If Saddam or islamic terriorists nuked the US or Isreal millions would die and millions more in the retaliation that would make the 100k Iraqy dead look like nothing, heck 200k die yearly from medical melpractice in the US, 50k from car accidents, and many many from abortion.

It sort of reminds me of the book of Amos. The cannites were sinning and were distroyed by Isreal. Isreal was sinning and was distroyed by the Asserians then the Asserians were distroyed by the Babylonians. Juda was wicked and sinning and they were distroyed by Babalon, then the Meads and Persians distroyed the Babilyonians. GOD did this all sovrinly as judgement against them. I believe that GOD still judges the nations.

Love in Christ
Gift

[This message has been edited by Gift (edited September 13, 2002).]

Homer, I like Einstein would rather nobody had nuclear bombs, and if we had a means of defending against them without possesing them, I'd say destroy 'em all. I still wonder whether people are more frightened by the technology than anything else. During World War Two another tactic was employed a few times using an effect called "fire storms", which in many ways sounds scarier than a-bombs.

Saying the war in Vietnam was a battle against communism is not stretching the truth at all. There were more Vietnamese fighting the communists than most people think, but even if there had not been I don't think fighting communist agression is a bad thing. Killing women and children is disgusting and I really think that war should have been handled differently.

I have close relatives who live in Sweden and even under that "mild" communism the government dictates a large part of people's lives. Communsism has always seeked to destroy Christianity, Marx hated it, Stalin declared he would parade the last Christian to the gallows on TV, Mao's China has gone after and killed Christians and all but outlawed public worship...

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

i could have much to say..
since this is mostly about america..

let me say one thing.. i am very pro america and yet anti-america at the same time..
Its a country of extremes , America, probably out of all hisdtory has been the greatest benevolent country and helped soo much, in good faith, with pure motives (and always there are those with ulteria motives, political agendas), on the other hand america has used her might for her own selfish and evil agendas also.. and there is much much below the surface going on , and has gone on, that in our nievity we have missed .. I think every person of a country has a blindspot, even us as christians have blindspots and can't see things clearly in our own context, not one of us understands the bible absolutely clearly and wholey and each one of us is going to believe something about the bible that is wrong, however its important to make sure the foundations, the basics are accurate, or we'll pollute our lives... but anyway back to america, americans also are people affected by the sin nature, and the fall, and also if there is more power, as is today, then you will expect the corrupt human nature to be sinning in greater proportions.. Alot of what america has been doing (and especially the rhetoric of george bush) is wrong, the scary thing, is that it is often dressed up in christian rhetoric (which blinds some christians) but the sad thing is that it alienates the muslim peoplke from the gospel even more..

What is the purpose of History continueing? from God's perspective... its in the great commission in matt 28, the end will come when the gospel has been preached to all ethnic groups, God's heart is for reconciliation, and that none would perish... God has blessed america, mostly as she has been a blessing.. God loves america, but He loves the taliban just as much.. Actually He will spend His time over the one lost sheep, than on the 99 found safe ones...

I believe that people with the gospel have a responsibility , and we are to share the blessing, the blessing of the gospel, and if the only way for the gospel to permeate the islamic people is for them to subdue america , then let it happen..
Remember christianity spreed much more on the blood of the matyrs, however we often try to kill those we are called to reach... In reality the taliban (even though having many evil attributes) had not much to do with al queda, however the media made them into one and the same... if you understand Pashtun culture (which taliban are mostly).. they have a 5000 year tradition, that if you host somebody, you defend them with your own life, whether they are right or wrong.. whether you like them or dislike them.. its their culture... to them its just part of being a proper host, with honour... But politically afganistan has become important for an oil pipeline... sad but true... and what of the 1000 or so taliban that were killed under american watch, in shipping containers, suffocated to death... and the millions of new refugees...

i don't want to america bash... the world focused on bosnia and stuff, and intervened, but don't intervene or even have the media pay attention to the millions killed in northern africa and central affrica, actually UN observers in rwanda etc handed over people to be slaughtered, people don't actually know that in that part of africa, just a few years ago millions of people were killed (some people know that) but most of them were christians,, but the fruit of the matyrs has created great fruit, revivals all over africa, millions upon millions saved... Oh Yeah.. Satan would try to wipe out christianity, but it won't happen...

How christianity has spread in history has been amazing..
How chrisitians in the roman empire were killed and persecuted, yet in that it spread, and eventually so widespread that it became the religon of the roman empire, yet once it became political and watered down, rome didn't share it... so God let rome be plundered by the barbarians who in turn became devout christians, and how did the vikings, the skanavians - to whoom, blood, fire war were the untlimate goal and glory, and meanign of life come to accept christ.. Well they plundered the christian lands, kidnapped monks (and killed more) kidnapped christian women for their wives, they slaughtered much of europe (were teh christians praying to God - oh those evil norsemen, how come you let them slaughter us?) we'l God loved those norsemen so much He layed down Christ to save them, and layed down the body of Christ also, sacrifced us because of His great love for them... He let nice christian girls get raped, and kidnapped, so that they in turn, would suffer for Christ and in turn bring the gospel to their captives who turned from their norse ways and embraced the gospel..
Would God be willing to sacrifice thte west, to get the muslims, whom he loves greatly saved??
And the communists in China,look at our western morality, and they beg us to act christian, much of communism is founded on christian ideas, but you can't take Christ out of christianity.. it doesn't work...

We see history and politics as us versus them, us saved christians in the advanced west against those godhating evil foreginers, yet God's heart is for them and for their salvation..

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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Originally posted by homer:
i think a lot of americans are misinformed, left in the dark or just plain arrogent....you cant go around suppressing other country's for decades and expect them not to retaliate to just take it....its an eye for an eye and unfortunatly i think theres going to be a lot more of it

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Hey all, well homer, from those three I would have to say that left in the dark is the best. Most Americans do not know the atrocities committted by their own country. Although, I spent two weeks in Japan this summer, and my host sister told me the same thing about the Japanese. She never heard what the Japanese did to the Koreans in WWII-and when some of her Korean Freinds told her she was horrified. I am sure the same is for Australia-that you guys have done things wrong and fail to tell future generations about it-because every country is manned by people and covering up of wrongs is natural human behaivor-even though it is morally wrong. But, back to being in the dark, many times I feel like me and my closest freinds are the only people in the whole county who can both be proud to be American and also question the Government. I mean, did we ever have a concrete reason to go into Afghanistan? I mean yeah we ASSUMED that the Taliban was half way responsible for 9-11...but the truth was the whole country-not to mention America's allied countries-were ticked and we needed a fall guy. If we wanted to remove the Taliban for the crappy way they treated their constituents, we would have done it long ago----and guess what, the very minute all the American and British and all other soldiers back out the country will go into civil war and be taken over either by another Taliban or go back to feudal rule-that cycle is how the Taliban came into power the last time America 'helped' Afghanistan out (I believe it was the late 70's or early 80's). And, as far as attacking Suddam....yeah he is probably as bad as Hitler, but that is a gut feeling. The world had justification to attack Hitler because he was aggresively assaulting and annexing other nations-not because FDR want him to be the next fall guy. We should only bust Saddam's rear if he breaks international law, and that is for the 150 nation UN to decide-not just one of its members but the whole committee. And BTW-I forgot who made the comment, but America did not come in at the end of WWII to look like a hero-the reason we came in was the Japanese (who at the time were somewhat allied with the other Axis nations) attacked us and our policy was to stay out unless attacked because the public did not want another loss of soldiers like in WWI---so it was because we were ticked at our losses--not because we wanted to be the hero for europe--even though history books would color it differently now a days. And this is the only time you will hear a recent High School Graduate (such as myself) say anything like this.......I AM SO GLAD I WAS AWAKE DURING HISTORY CLASS LOL j/k on the last part.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

(Back to uber-lurk mode).

I hope that your family have adjusted well and are enjoying all that the new bundle of joy has brought you.

God Bless,
Matt

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<><
Ephesians 4

quote:

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Originally posted by Torial:
Just wanted to mention something good that happened on 9/11/02 this year. Our first child was born at 6:26 AM via C-section (he was two weeks late!). His name is Patrick, and weighed in at 10 lbs and 4 oz (22 inches too). Something life-affirming for that day is good.

(Back to uber-lurk mode).

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congrats big time dude...but uhh what is uber-lurk mode?

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

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<><
Ephesians 4

You say Communism is based on Christian principles? How so? (and no this isn't a rethorical question so go on and answer it)

Quoting World Book Encyclopedia's discussion on Marxism:
"He believed that the individual, not God, was the highest being."

Marxist ideas are founded fundamentally on the idea that man is basically good, and that both man and society were "evolving" toward his utopian view (the word utopian was originally a slam against such ideas because it means literally 'nowhere').

Perhaps you refer to the "commonwealth" ideas? The Israelites were given a system that balanced wealth and gave the poor something to lean on, but it hardly constituted socialism or communism. The Biblical principle is that as part of worship you give some of your wealth back to the Lord, not that you are compelled to give a fixed ammount to a state institution that might well use it to kill babies or take down Churches. (and yes give to Caesar what is Caesar's, but this ain't Caesar's)

Perhaps you mean regarding education? The biblical principal is that the parents, not the state, are responsible for "training up a child in the way they should go."

I have studied history from both Christian and secular authors and while they are both bound to be errant, it will give you a more balanced view of world history than just one or the other. Secular textbooks I have read are usually at least edging on humanistic, and they are not likely to give you a balanced view when it comes to ideologies.

It's a little bit to go through, but if you could I would suggest that you get ahold of an 'A Beka' history textbook, they are written from the Christian perspective and will give you a lot more insight on world history.

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

Yes i do agree with you.. what i have often said to communists that the flaw of it is that it assumes that people are innately good, given the right circumstances, while the truth is that all men are fallen, and born with a sinful nature... and also even with a system based on christian values , you can't take God out of the picture, when you do that, you deny the power , and it becomes idolotorous and dangerous..

so there are many values in communism which are against christianity and many that are very dangerous, and the result has been quite horrible in history - and there is the sideeffect of when a group of people get unlimited power, and the dictorships that arose, which defy the essense of communism anyway... Also in the christian ethic, GOd gave man free will and free choice, we have to choose to follow him, choose to have compassion and give to the poor etc... dictarorial communism however forces people to follow its ideals and completely wrong..

mostly i aggree with its initial putting value of each individual and equality (though in practise this reverted due to human nature), and also how when the communists came to power they were so involved with integrity, outlawing prostitution etc (but helping the former prostitute etc)

i believe in socialism, in a form, but not that its the governments responsibility to give welfare, to clothe and feed the poor etc.. I believe its the christians resposibility , the church's... to serve the poor in the community, to show the love of Christ to them... also with education (both socialist and west) have school based education (some of it propaganda and through control etc) i see schools as good, but also that the family is the main unit and its the parents responsibility, but i don't see schools as neccisarily bad- though some are and used for ulterior motives..

i have studied it much (but not thought about it for a long time, so my thoughts are running clearly, but most of my study material is that of China.. which is quite different.. and its of many many communists who believed so strongly and followed so well (while others just used the system to persecute them) who searched their hearts and minds trying to be better people and to love better (which the government turned in humiliation and it turned into self condemnation) who just needed to focus on Jesus, who died as matyrs for a useless cause, when chiang kaishek decided to massacre thousands and thousands of communists and such... so tragic

so basically i thnk communism or any state socialism (or state capitalism , any totalitarian , including the future of america) is dangerous...

but i think the principles of "love others","equality of all people", "value of all people", "hard work","sharing","self sacrifice" as well as others in communism are good - though of course communism didn't come up with..

but i don't espound a socialistic state... i believe its by choice, and more the church's responsibility than the state... i think the the church has abdicated its responsibility the the state even, in many cases, letting the state do in an administerial way, what the church could do with great love...

for a nice christian "left wing" perspective i like the sojourners magazine
http://www.sojo.net (though i don't always aggree with all the things in it)

and a site that scours newspapers for interesting articles

http://www.commondreams.org

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Back on Vietnam, obviously war crimes were commited, but you must not omit the thousands of Vietnamese farmers killed and millions put into Vietnamese deathcamp equivalents as "enemies of the state". I'm not even sure if that was a war we should have been in, even though the reasons seem compelling. My mom has questioned whether the Presidents involved would have been so eager had their sons been at the draft age. In the end it was a war fought and lost by politics, but look at who lost most, America and Vietnam. So who do you "punish"?

Also what you non-Americans don't seem to understand is that George Bush does not dictate the rest of the world. The President can declare war, and even sustain it for up to three months, but after that any action requires the support of Congress (arguably part of the problem with Vietnam).

On the Taliban, they claimed to have destroyed the Twin Towers, not exactly something you do to avoid attack.

Klumsy, the authors of our country's government all voiced the concern that it would not endure if God was not supreme to its people. Without Christianity all of the checks and balances in the world will not make good government. Let me ask though, what does "acting Christian" mean? Putting up with anything your government says? Or putting up with anything other countries do?

"All people are created equal" is I believe the text written by our country long before Marx. Does this mean everyone is paid the same or that "class" does not exist? Of course not. The idea is that "class" is not determined by heritage but by personal diligence. When you look at what communist countries actually look like the difference between classes is greater.

On education, public education is not the issue, but what is being taught in it. Russia actively promoted atheistic communist ideology, and denied the right of parents to teach otherwise even in their own homes. Even so you will find that our own education system is increasingly hostile to anything Christian. Maybe you haven't heard, it's been local news, after Columbine some of the students made tiles with Christian symbols as part of a memorial, and they were destroyed by the school, fortunately they were allowed back, but at the same time the school blackmailed parents from even considering pulling their children out of school and possibly homeschooling.

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

quote:

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I notice you neglected one major point on the nuclear bombs used on Japan. To be more specific, they were dropped three days apart. The first hit about a mile in diameter, and killed somewhere around 100,000 people, around the same number as many strikes over Germany by conventional bombs. The second was on much more uneven terrain and killed roughly 40,000, 3 days after the first bomb. So, tell me if this was unecessary, why didn't Japan surender after Nagasaki?

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many reasons, it takes time to discuss surrender, people would still be in shock, a clear plan, details, analysis of the situation would not be complete, there would be internal strife, those wanting to surrender, those not among the ranks and the generals..
I do aknowledge the fact that Japan might not have surrendered otherwise, and that an invasion would be bloody etc(though maybe japan just could have been contained without being invaded) anyway I know human nature (and my own on the personal level) and our way of rationalising behaviours and comforting our concienses... lets just call sin as sin... When i confront american sin say in vietnam or etc etc, i am not excusing sin of the vietnameses, when i point out the dangers of attacking iraq and the hidden agendas, i don't blindly make saddam a hero, He is a man with the sinful nature, fallen, and has committed much evil - and to God he will answer for that..
but back to the rationalising, when i talk to fellow kiwis about how they treated the maoris, or to australians about the aboriginies, the answers, justifcations, excuses i get are so predictible, the same when mentioning the a-bomb on japan (i could easily predict the explanation about japanese fighting to the death, bloody invasion etc etc), also it was interesting a year or few ago, that black guy down south somewhere who was killed by some white guys being dragged behind a pickup..
many of the white locals in interviews said things like "well he wasn't such a good guy himself," (so are they infering thata he deserved it?) ... it just made me sick, but reminds us about how our fallen natures work, how we rationalise sin, for various reasons and how the human heart is decietful above all things.. and i'm sure i have such blind spots and predujices i might think are innocent.. sin is sin, and all men, whether american, japanese, chiense, arabian, jewish, european etc are subject to it, and every powerful nation and empire has been captured by it in a large scale, and has done horrible crimes... the rising empire of the US is no exception..

quote:

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Oh yeah, and by the way people, when disparaging the war with Japan you also dishoner the Japanese Americans who fought even against their homeland, including the most decorated squadron of the entire war made up entirely of Japanese Americans...

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and i also don't see the vietkong as sinless, but the sin of the vietkong doesn't excuse the sin of the US...
While also the sin of the US in afganistan doesn't excuse the sin of whoever did sept 11.. (bin-laden, alqueda, even if the taliban etc)

quote:

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Also what you non-Americans don't seem to understand is that George Bush does not dictate the rest of the world. The President can declare war, and even sustain it for up to three months, but after that any action requires the support of Congress (arguably part of the problem with Vietnam).

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I may be not an american, but my wife is, and her major of study was political science, i am well aware that a congress needs to consolidate funding for a war, yet i am also aware of many executive orders which have effectively bypassed such safegaurds, and just a few weeks ago, i remember whitehouse lawyers making a case of not having to get support from congress...
as far as dictating to the rest of the world, the behavour of late at the UN would suggest otherwise.. (as would behaviour in the past, ie in teh original gulf war, the US bribed security counsil memberrs to vote for the resolution with free adn cheap oil, aide and such, and when yemen voted against it, the us representive said "that is the most expesnve vote you'll ever cast", and but a few days later cut all aid to yemen..

quote:

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Klumsy, the authors of our country's government all voiced the concern that it would not endure if God was not supreme to its people. Without Christianity all of the checks and balances in the world will not make good government. Let me ask though, what does "acting Christian" mean? Putting up with anything your government says? Or putting up with anything other countries do?

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yep i believe many of the founders of the US were godly men, and long sighted, they understood the nature of man, and the dangers of empire , abuse etc... being a christian is not about putting up with everything, its not about being a doormat.. however christians were persecuted by rome mostly for refusing to do military service, for being pacifists, for rather dying than having to kill.. (though in the spiritual rhealm the persecution was for a different reason - for Christ and because of Christ)
i think Christians need to pray, wait on God, and try to see things in the perspective of the gospel, in perspective of the Kingdom of God, rather than the situations of the day, and the pespective of the kingdoms of this world.. I am glad that now , some christian leaders who had been blinded up to this point, have begun to stand up to the government and say "this is not the way of Jesus", this is not a just war..

quote:

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"All people are created equal" is I believe the text written by our country long before Marx. Does this mean everyone is paid the same or that "class" does not exist? Of course not. The idea is that "class" is not determined by heritage but by personal diligence. When you look at what communist countries actually look like the difference between classes is greater.

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quote:

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On education, public education is not the issue, but what is being taught in it. Russia actively promoted atheistic communist ideology, and denied the right of parents to teach otherwise even in their own homes. Even so you will find that our own education system is increasingly hostile to anything Christian. Maybe you haven't heard, it's been local news, after Columbine some of the students made tiles with Christian symbols as part of a memorial, and they were destroyed by the school, fortunately they were allowed back, but at the same time the school blackmailed parents from even considering pulling their children out of school and possibly homeschooling.

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yeah i heard, i see agendas to mold the minds of our young children, agendas here and there, in the classrooms of New Zealand , US , and the world (the surpising thing is i say less of it in China - though of course it was still there, if i asked my students about taiwan, i could predict word for word their response - and not just an offical one, the actual opinions of my close friends) as for columbine, thats so tragic.. we personally know a young guy who went to that school and in the fevor of finding people to blame, he was blamed as part of it, and investigated by police and all, just because of the way he dressed, very tragic, he has since been cleared etc etc, though the police won't give him his stuff back.. but thats beside the topic..

quote:

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faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

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and peace to all.. i don't want to flame.. to insult .. to argue..
just expressing my opinion and concerns as others are..

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Non-Christians have always claimed to despise Christianity because of its believers, it's important that we live what we believe, but don't expect the world to love us because of it. "The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him."

Regarding your martyristic view, lets back up to the Israelites, they were told to fight many nations, in some cases they were told to destroy "every living thing", and got into trouble with God when they disobeyed. Is this the same God we serve or not? Shall we say to the Goliath of Humanism, you defy God, so go ahead and kill us, that you may know God is with us?

We obviously must depend on God and not the sword, asking Him what we should do and where we should go, but this idea that "dying for Christ" is more important than fighting and dying for the lives of others is pure bunk. "If you do this for the least of these, you do it for me."

On the point of "loving others", even humanist rehtoric claims that, Ted Turner includes something to that effect in his oh so cutesy "Ten Voluntary Initiatives". The Bible says "He who is born of love knows God and loves God", so while what I say may not be popular, it seems that anyone who truly loves his neighbor loves God and whoever hates God hates his neighbor. You can say you love others, but unless you are Christian there is no meaning to it.

Chiang Kai-Shek's stand against Communist agressors was a waste? What do you think the Communists would have done to these "enemies of the state"? Instead of being killed off they were able to found Taiwan as a Christian democracy. This leader of China was a strong and bold Christian so before you tell me about how he was not doing the Lord's will, tell me how it is that you know it?

Marxism is it's own worldview, clear and simple. It is closely allied with the humanist worldview in its theology. They know who their enemies are, so Christians had better know what these worldviews really are about.

I just don't think a lot of people, especially Americans, realize just how much humanist indoctrination they are being fed.

I've only just started on it, but I strongly suggest to everyone out there reading "Understanding Our Times" by David A. Noebel. It goes through a study of the competing worldviews of today, even if you don't agree with us "right wingers" this will be a challenge to "know thyself".

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There's a difference you know, 'tween having faith and playing make-believe. One will make you grow, the other one's just a fantasy...

Faith without works is like a song you can't sing, it's about as useless as a screendoor on a submarine...

and yes i dispise the entrencment of humanism into our modern culture, the media etc.. when i say we are to love, its sad that its watered down by your comments that humanists say.. i said that you can't take GOd out of the picture, and if that happens, everything is idolotorous... however i was talking in the context of us christians, and with loving our neighbours as we should..(and also i don't support marxism for one but, i was just pointing out some things about its original and the lives.. the world will hate true christians, and call ones hypocrites who aren't... though it saddens me when true seekers turn from the path at first encounter because of our hypocracy and lack of love..

quote:

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Regarding your martyristic view, lets back up to the Israelites, they were told to fight many nations, in some cases they were told to destroy "every living thing", and got into trouble with God when they disobeyed. Is this the same God we serve or not? Shall we say to the Goliath of Humanism, you defy God, so go ahead and kill us, that you may know God is with us?

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but i don't want to get into politicl debates... you are a fellow christian, and we both love God.. i do understand your concern about humanism, and am glad you brought it up... as until i explain my thoughts on communism you might think i am swayed towards it even, when thats not the case... i am utterly concerned about worldviews, and the one that is being formed for us by t.v , in the classrooms etc... it is devoid of God, and dangerous... and humanism is dangerous.. a little idea and there, even by sincere people, can do alot of damage down the track..

Karl..
b.t.w in a new thread i'll post an email

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz