quote:

---

WASHINGTON, Feb. 26 — A Florida technology company is poised to ask the government for permission to market a computer ID chip that could be embedded beneath a person’s skin. For airports, nuclear power plants and other high-security facilities, the immediate benefits would be a closer-to-foolproof security system. But privacy advocates warn that the chip could lead to encroachments on civil liberties.

---

I had read about this a month or so ago. Now it's happened. It stirs something in me thinking about it, something of dread. I know I'm the Lord's though so I shouldn't be worried

What do y'all think about it?

BlazeQ

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I'm out of my mind... and into the mind of Christ -G.S. Megaphoe

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

If the mark is literal, then he can force the mark on you without your consent and then you would be lost without any choice on your part.

That doesn't sound fair to me.

------------------

www.revelatorgames.com

I hadn't heard of this Sabbath issue until a few weeks ago when you mentioned it. Sounds like I might I have been lost without any choice on my part...

That doesn't sound fair to me.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

1/ The mark is on our head and hands - it represents our thoughts and actions, if they conform to this world's ways, or the ways of God instead. The Catholic church fulfilled the death of people who would not accept the mark in the Middle ages.

2/ no-one 'goes to church', the church is the body of Christ

3/ The sabbath was a type for the recieving of salvation in the church age. If you want to worry about what day you keep to the Lord, you need also to keep the food laws, the sacrificial laws, and accept that the NT says that no-one was saved by keeping the Law. Read Leviticus for the rest of the stuff you need to do, if you want to keep a sabbath day. I'd hope for your sake you're already circumcised, because that would surely hurt otherwise :0)

anyhow...
much of revelations is figurative/symbolic, asd with the levitical ceremonies etc... but as then there is also a real world, here and now aspect of it.. the whole argument of being a pillar meaning that we are a stone is flawed, Jesus is our cornerstone.. cornerstone is an understanding in both his language and ours, such is the same linguistically with pill ar.. people saw something is a pillar of democracy, of freedom, or their household or community..

i believe that its most likely thaat the mark will be physical, and this interpretation was made that fits in with modern technology so well.. it was made a long time ago before such technology was ever dreamed..
however i don't believe that the physical act of having some microchip embeded in you cuts you off from salvation.. it has to be deeper.. as you say our thoughts and our actions, yet don't cut off the possibility of it also being real world, for it says clearly that it is a mark (in greek read - brand, like a horse gets) and that without this mark one won't be able to buy and sell..
so there is still a mystery... and often prophecy turns out much different than how people expect.. probably slightly different that how i believe or either of you.. the messiah prophecies turned out much different than the jews expected, and God's plan for our lives often turns out much different than we expect..
but do not discount the possibility of a microchip or other such mark..
there is a mystery of those who recieve the mark losing the ability to get saved.. one could argue, well what if i cut off my hand and cut it off in the process.. can i get saved again.. i don't know.. but i know God knows, and i know that it will go deeper than a physical mark (ie babies could get forcibly a mark ) yet remember the scriptures that condemn it say those who accept it.. So it definately has to do with choices.. all history and everything has to do with Choices , of doing things our way, the devils way or choosing to submit to GOd.. maybe if we choose to submit to satan our hearts are so cold to God (in the end days the love of men will grow cold) that we would never choose to change, and thus its sealed..
i don't know.. i've studied it from many angles, and i doubt any one is entirely accurate, but from revelations and these studies we know enough to be wary and be prepared.. as as we submit to CHrist and abide in Him we'll be safe to make the right decisions..

rev 14:9
Then a third angel followed them, shouting, "Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or the hand

16He required everyone--great and small, rich and poor, slave and free--to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. 17And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. 18Wisdom is needed to understand this. Let the one who has understanding solve the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[1] His number is 666.[

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

In fact, the interpretaton of Revelation you subscribe to was invented by the papacy. That so many 'protestants' preach it is kind of ironic, don't you think ?

<quote>there is a mystery of those who recieve the mark losing the ability to get saved.. </quote>

You mean those who go back to the world losing their salvation ? No mystery.

<quote>one could argue, well what if i cut off my hand and cut it off in the process.. can i get saved again.. i don't know.. but i know God knows,</quote>

Such a tangled web is weaved by an initial error. Does God care about what is on the outside, or the inside ? Paul said that principalities and powers could not seperate us from God's love, your interpretation of this bit of Revelation seems to claim otherwise...

<quote>and i know that it will go deeper than a physical mark (ie babies could get forcibly a mark ) yet remember the scriptures that condemn it say those who accept it.. So it definately has to do with choices.. </quote>

Yes, it has to do with the choice of walking in the Spirit or in the flesh. The bit about not being able to buy and sell has been fulfilled, by the Catholic church in the Middle Ages. The rest, as I interpret it, stands very well alongside other scripture and is a cxohesive part of the Bible. As you read it, it has nothing to do with the rest of the Bible message at all, no other scripture I know of supports it at ALL. In fact the Bible says there were and are many anti-Christs. Not one big scary ogre to especially make life hard for the Christians at the end of the church age.

We're on dangerous ground when we start picking which parts of the Bible we want to believe. I don't believe the God who knows how to give good gifts to His children would give us a bible with lies at the end. But it is equally foolish to bend prophicies to fit real world events - Revelations will fufill itself with out our help.

MeanMan: Where does the Bible talk about many anti-christs ? I trust your not confusing false prophets and anti-christs.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Pretty much every other translation I have checked reads the same. Interestingly, one version translated anti-Christ as 'enemy of Christ', which is really what it means at the end of the day. It doesn't mean opposite of Christ, as powerful as Christ but evil, it just means opposed to Him. In the same way I am anti-cigarettes, anti-Big Brother and Neighbours, etc., some people are anti-Christ. Of course being against Christ is a much bigger decision than being against brain dead TV shows, which only waste time, or even cigarettes, which merely kill the flesh. Opposing Christ means opposing the one way in which the soul can avoid death.

Who do you worship? - Obviously Christ I hope.

The factor that intrigues me is that the scriptures also say that many Christians will be DECEIVED?

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

So what kind of religion are these false prophets and christs going to set up that will deceive many Christians? It would have to be very close to Christianity, or many Christians won't fall for it? - and yet at the core of this false religion there must be something that totally disagrees with Christianity.
(I hope you follow my logic).

So tell me, how does God ask us to worship Him?

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

And how do you worship God in truth? I suggest that part of the answer is is worshipping God on the day that he has defined - the Sabbath.

So the ultimate question you need to ask is? Do I worship God on the day I want to, because it is what I feel comfortable with and tradition supports it?

Or

Do I worship on the day that God set at the foundation of the world before sin came in. (Yes - the Sabbath was made before sin, therefore the Sabbath is NOT a symbol that looks forward to Christ's first coming and fulfilling)

You don't keep the Sabbath to go to heaven, rather worshipping on the Sabbath shows who you worship - the God of the Bible (rather than the God of the Catholic Church who claim that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday with their own authority. If you don't believe me, check out their catechism.)

Everyone has a choice on which day they wish to worship. Why not do it on the day God wants us to? I mean, as a Christian you want to do everything else that God wants you to - why not the Sabbath?

And MeanMan...
You cannot lump the Sabbath together with circumcision, sacrifices, unclean foods etc.

The Sabbath is distinct from all these other ceremonial laws because:
The Sabbath was instituted at Creation (Before sin came in and for all men - not just for the Jews)
The Sabbath is in the 10 Commandments (all the ceremonial laws aren't)
The Sabbath does not point forward to Christ coming and dying for us, but rather looks back at Creation
The Sabbath was kept by Jesus and all the apostles and there is no scripture that says it was changed or that it does not need to be kept anymore.

And if you say that the 10 commandments have been done away with, then come to Sydney and I'll shoot you. (I'm kidding... heh heh heh)

Anyway, I'm going to have a happy Sabbath today (heh heh heh)

God Bless

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by Revelator:
The factor that intrigues me is that the scriptures also say that many Christians will be DECEIVED?

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

---

This has nothing to do with the mark of the beast. If you study the early AD history of Israel you'll see its littered with people claiming to speak for God (or be God) and raising armies against the Romans only to get everybody slaughtered.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Revelator:
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

And how do you worship God in truth? I suggest that part of the answer is is worshipping God on the day that he has defined - the Sabbath.

---

I'm really not following your logic here. Is it not possible to worship in spirit and truth on a Sunday, or any other day of the week ?

Do you make a point of abstaining from all forms of worship on a Sunday ? You've already said us Sunday worshippers are really worshipping satan so I trust you spend all day work or the shops for fear of accidently worshipping the evil one.

Who do you say I am worshipping on a Wednesday evening at my church homegroup ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Revelator:
So the ultimate question you need to ask is? Do I worship God on the day I want to, because it is what I feel comfortable with and tradition supports it?

Or

Do I worship on the day that God set at the foundation of the world before sin came in. (Yes - the Sabbath was made before sin, therefore the Sabbath is NOT a symbol that looks forward to Christ's first coming and fulfilling)

---

..or worship God in all you do during the week, in spirit and truth. If Christians gather on a Sunday go worship with them, if they gather on a Saturday go worship with them.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

<quote>
MeanMan: I stand corrected - I found 1 John 2:18 a few seconds after hitting reply . I am still convinced both Daniel and Revelations talk about a specific person besides all the false Christs and false prophets - but there are too many different discussions going on this post - so I'll try to stick to original subject of "The Mark?"
</quote>

Where in Daniel ? How does your interpretation of Revelation and Daniel sit with the rest of the Bible ? What happens to Christians when this anti Christ comes ? How can it be that no man knows when Jesus will return, if prior to his return this guy with a stamp for heads and hands starts cutting peoples heads off for exactly 3 1/2 or 7 years ( depending on how you abuse Daniel to come up with the doctrine in the first place ) ?

<quote>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Revelator:
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
And how do you worship God in truth? I suggest that part of the answer is is worshipping God on the day that he has defined - the Sabbath.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm really not following your logic here. Is it not possible to worship in spirit and truth on a Sunday, or any other day of the week ?
</quote>

In fact, Paul said not to be observing days, and in particular, as I have said, that if you keep one portion of the Law, you must keep it all, and must then either become a Jew, or accept the NT, which says no-one is saved by keeping the Law. Anyone who observes a Sabbath in the church age is decieved, the Sabbath was an example of salvation and the type is overshadowed and replaced by it's fulfillment.

<quote>
Do you make a point of abstaining from all forms of worship on a Sunday ? You've already said us Sunday worshippers are really worshipping satan so I trust you spend all day work or the shops for fear of accidently worshipping the evil one.
</quote>

Did someone say that ? Goodness me, how bizarre.....

<quote>
Originally posted by Revelator:
So the ultimate question you need to ask is? Do I worship God on the day I want to, because it is what I feel comfortable with and tradition supports it?
Or

Do I worship on the day that God set at the foundation of the world before sin came in. (Yes - the Sabbath was made before sin, therefore the Sabbath is NOT a symbol that looks forward to Christ's first coming and fulfilling)
</quote>

How truly odd. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was a gift for us, and yet you ( meaning Revelator ) make the same error the Pharisees did, and seek to make it a burden. You err more than they, for they at least lived in a time when the Sabbath was to be observed as a day, instead of entering into God's rest by recieving of the Holy Spirit with evidence, which has been the case for about 2,000 years now.

<quote>
..or worship God in all you do during the week, in spirit and truth. If Christians gather on a Sunday go worship with them, if they gather on a Saturday go worship with them.
</quote>

Couldn't agree more. If the 'sabbath' is the only day you are a Christian, or worship God, then you have obviously missed the plot. Sunday is a convenient day to get together, it's the day people are least likely to work. But God doesn't smile on my worship at 11:59 on Saturday, and then condemn me to hell if I continue for another minute or two. What a strange doctrine...

<quote>
The dominant theme in Revelation is Worship.
Who do you worship? - Obviously Christ I hope.
</quote>

Yes, every day, in fact.

<quote>
The factor that intrigues me is that the scriptures also say that many Christians will be DECEIVED?

Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.
</quote>

An anti-Christ and a false Christ are very different things. The Mormons are a false Christ, they seek to replace Him. The Hindu religion is an anti-Christ - it opposes Him.

<quote>
So what kind of religion are these false prophets and christs going to set up that will deceive many Christians? It would have to be very close to Christianity, or many Christians won't fall for it? - and yet at the core of this false religion there must be something that totally disagrees with Christianity.
(I hope you follow my logic).
</quote>

Exactly, I see it all around me. Churches with a 'form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof'. In other words, they look good, but they do not preach salvation, or the power of God working in the life of the individual.

<quote>
So tell me, how does God ask us to worship Him?

John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
</quote>

Before you start on the truth bit, how do you worship God in Spirit ? The answer, by the way, according to the Bible, is speaking in tongues.

<quote>
And how do you worship God in truth? I suggest that part of the answer is is worshipping God on the day that he has defined - the Sabbath.
</quote>

To repeat something you've already been asked - does this mean you worship God for one day a week ?

<snip bit I ended up answering in another post/>

<quote>
You don't keep the Sabbath to go to heaven, rather worshipping on the Sabbath shows who you worship - the God of the Bible (rather than the God of the Catholic Church who claim that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday with their own authority. If you don't believe me, check out their catechism.)
</quote>

Well, both views are wrong. The Sabbath doesn't need changing, it needs observing. In the NT, that means becoming a Christian, recieving the Spirit with evidence and entering His rest.

<quote>
Everyone has a choice on which day they wish to worship. Why not do it on the day God wants us to? I mean, as a Christian you want to do everything else that God wants you to - why not the Sabbath?
</quote>

You honestly believe God cares what day we worship ?

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not vice-versa. In other words, God didn't have this sabbath thing kicking around, so He made some folks He could have worship Him on that day. He made us, and gave us a day to rest from our labours and focus on Him. In the NT, salvation gives us present continuous rest that does not go away, and the type is fulfilled. It is a gift to us, not us a gift to it. It is for our benefit, so we can worship God and reflect on Him. It is with me every day, regardless of when I go to church.

<quote>
And MeanMan...
You cannot lump the Sabbath together with circumcision, sacrifices, unclean foods etc.
</quote>

I didn't expect you to say otherwise.... :-)

<quote>
The Sabbath is distinct from all these other ceremonial laws because:
The Sabbath was instituted at Creation (Before sin came in and for all men - not just for the Jews)
</quote>

The Sabbath as a type existed then, but if it was so important, why did God not give it to Adam right away also ?

<quote>
The Sabbath is in the 10 Commandments (all the ceremonial laws aren't)
</quote>

Are you claiming to have kept the 10 commandments WITHOUT FAIL ? I think you've broken one already - your idol is the Sabbath. The 10 commandments are the most vital points of the LAw, but James says:

10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

He's obviously taking about the commandments and says that you need to keep the whole LAw, if you keep any at all.

<quote>
The Sabbath does not point forward to Christ coming and dying for us, but rather looks back at Creation
<quote>

The Sabbath is an example that God Himself kept, even as Jesus submitted to baptism for our exmaple. It is a type of salvation. If it isn't, then what is it for ? Why do you believe God rejects my worship on a Sunday ?

<quote>
The Sabbath was kept by Jesus and all the apostles and there is no scripture that says it was changed or that it does not need to be kept anymore.
</quote>

Jesus lived under the Law and He kept it. Had He not, He would not have been a perfect sacrifice.

<quote>
And if you say that the 10 commandments have been done away with, then come to Sydney and I'll shoot you. (I'm kidding... heh heh heh)
</quote>

Actually, this is the whole thing. The 10 commandments cannot save, but now they are written in my heart by the Spirit. What changes is that instead of an external law, I have the Holy Spirit inside making me WANT to fulfill the SPIRIT of the Law, which usually involves more than merely the Letter. Refer my quote from James.

<quote>
Anyway, I'm going to have a happy Sabbath today (heh heh heh)
</quote>

I really feel sorry for you. If today is the Sabbath, then that means if it's cold you cannot chop wood, no ? Can you cook ? Can you drive a car ? What constitutes work ? Can't you see you're under the Law ? How does the RSPCA feel about the Levite you have visit to sacrifice animals on your behalf ?

There's no way out of it - you're keeping the Law, and you need to keep it all if you want to keep it at all, and in the end it still won't save your soul. I'm sorry, but that seems to be the way it is. For all of this Saturday observance, does your church, which is so fastidious about the Bible, operate voice gifts in the church ? Do you pray for the sick and see them recover ? Do your converts speak in tongues at the point of recieving salvation ? Do you baptise by full immersion ? These are the signs of God's church, not nitpicking over which day people meet, as if God is somehow wanting to accept us only based on some legalistic point that has become meaningless over the ages anyhow ( can you prove to me that this Saturday is an exact multiple of 7 days from the Sabbath that Jesus observed ? )

revelator:
yes the sabbath was introduced at creation, yes was it a law then?
rev , i think the whole issue with us, isn't the sabbath verses not hte sabbath - i belief that the sabbath is saturday and not sunday.. (however i don't believe that sunday is the mark of the beastetc).. however the whole law has been done away with... the law fufilled its purpose and jesus fufilled the law.. go and read all of galatians..
a question.. Man's first day was the sabbath, God made all creation, didn't need man's help and gave him his first day after creation as rest, He had entered into God's perfect rest, a gift from God..
how long did this sabbath last?
just the one day? the Sabbath was God's perfect rest.. adam abided in, rested in, worshipped God ... when did it end? my personal belief is that the sabbath of eden lasted until the fall...

the curse of sin ruled since then, and the law pointed out the sin, and set a standard... sabbaths came and went, an oppertunity for people to worship God in a levical system that did the job because the WAY directly to the father hadn't been made..

Jesus came, and died, and we can rest in him, enter into his sabbath-like rest (and awaiting the perfect rest of eternity)..
Jesus fufilled the sabbath.... To idolise the Sabbath above the Lord of the Sabbath is idolatory, and i believe that SDA in general do that..
you don't have to throw away your sabbath observing, but get rid of the legalistic aspects of it, and get to the heart of worship..

Many adventists are too hung up with making sure their children don't ride their bikes on sabbath and this and that, and keeping downdown calenders to really discover and have relationship with their creator, with their saviour... for me i would think a sabbath church like SDA would be one that would be preaching 'rest in jesus' more than anybody, but sadly we can get caught up with the details of here and now, the earth things.. the things we can do..

SDA is only starting to come out the the doctrines of salvation by works, and even those who claim salvation by faith, and rightouesness by faith in their lips, show belief in rightouesness by works through their actions and attitudes..

meanman, you can see the legalism in your brothers eye, but can't you see it in your own? in your denomination.. i can see it in my life, in areas here and there, but i strongly belief that RCI doctrine is heavily legalistic... maybe SDA is the legalistic evangelical, then RCI is the legalistic pentecostal..

just my opionions.. if they offend, then take them before God.. they aren't meant to offend.. just to be iron, to sharpen fellow iron..
but if they offend, go talk to our Father, he listens, and its important to get offense dealt with before it becomes a root of bitterness..

God Bless
Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

MeanManInOz (do you have a nick name or do I have to type it all out every time I address you? ):
The way to use UBB quotes is to use brackets ([quote]) instead of these: <quote>
oh, and right next to the posting box is a hyperlink that leads to a page explaining what UBB code does what.

My view on all of this is first of all, not to put God in a box. Only God is omniscient so I wouldn't put store in my logic or anyone else's except God's. Second of all I don't want to bash anybody else's beliefs (even if they're "wrong"). The 2 greatest commandments were to love God and everybody else. God will bring everybody round in the end in His timing

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I'm out of my mind... and into the mind of Christ -G.S. Megaphone

[This message has been edited by BlazeQ (edited May 18, 2002).]

quote:

---

meanman,
yes they can prove that the sabath = saturday is the same as it was at the time of jesus on earth..(a multiple of 7)

---

How on earth can that be proven ? Just interested.... The calendar has been changed many times over the centuries between.

To the person who asked about a shorter name, my name is Christian, the nickname was a reference to how I am sometimes known on mirc. To be honest, if I could change it, I would. I initially came here out of amusement over the whole idea of 'Christian Coders' ( and I still think Christian games is a bit of a joining of two unrelated ideas ), but it doesn't really fit if I want to chat about stuff here. But if I'm stuck with it, MM is a short way of saying it :0)

quote:

---

meanman, you can see the legalism in your brothers eye, but can't you see it in your own? in your denomination.. i can see it in my life, in areas here and there, but i strongly belief that RCI doctrine is heavily legalistic... maybe SDA is the legalistic evangelical, then RCI is the legalistic pentecostal..

---

Well, legalistic is often a buzzword for people willing to stand for something, instead of fall for anything. If it's legalistic to tell people what the Bible says and not compromise, then I guess we are guilty. Better that than the many 'churches' who accept anyone who calls themself a Christian, so long as they are accepted in return.

The Law was never done away with, it was fulfilled. The word 'legalistic' in my mind suggests salvation by works, and we are about the only church NOT preaching that. Every other church I have met members of seem to claim you know someone is a Christian because they are a nice person, i.e. works. we say it's by the manifestation of GOD'S works in a persons life, as defined by Him. If saying that the Bible is true, and being willing to point out what it says in a specific manner is legalism, what use is the Bible at all ?

Revelator: Why when you praise God's name on a Sunday (I am guessing you do not abstain from all forms of worship just because its a Sunday) do you worship God, but when I praise God's name on a Sunday, I am worshipping satan or the catholic church?

MeanMan: Our church just had a healing conference and there was a lot of speaking in tongues - and a lot of preaching against the abuse a spiritual gifts and preaching against the necessity of tongues from the same people. Why does the Holy Spirit allow these people to preach what you would say is a non-christian message ?

PS. MeanMan: my understanding of Daniel and Revelations fits in nicely with my understanding of the rest of the Bible especially the prophetic and apocalyptic passages - but I really think we have to start a new thread and go do some prayful study if we want to have a useful discussion about it.

God Bless

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

how do we know that today's monday isn't actually thursday..
and that the sabbath is still sunday?

we'll weeks have been on record for thousands of years without fail in differenet countries including europe, with the jews and the chinese..

also the jews have been faithful to observer the sabbath , sabbath after sabbath over the ages,

and also scientific astronomical observations can back this up..

one thing i find an awesome testimony to God is that all our cultures have a 7 day week.... even cut off 'primitive' animistic tribes that havce been recently 'found' follow the same scheme, with days that correlate...

isn't just our 7 day week a testimony to GOd and his creation?

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

I'll never think of a week in the same way again! As simple as it sounds, it is easy to forget just why we have seven days in a week o.o

------------------
Ty
~ I live to give

The Bible says there will be backsliders - you need to slide forwards in order to slide backwards. The Holy Spirit does not possess people, we have a free will choice as to what we believe, what we preach, etc. The Spirit teaches us, but we also need to be teachable. My father is a Christian, and he believes that not all Christians speak in tongues. Why ? Because his starting point was 'of COURSE God will save these nice people', instead of 'what does the Bible say'.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
The Bible says there will be backsliders - you need to slide forwards in order to slide backwards.

---

I have no idea what you are talking about here

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
The Holy Spirit does not possess people, we have a free will choice as to what we believe, what we preach, etc.

---

Romans 9:1 NLT

In the presence of Christ, I speak with utter truthfulness--I do not lie-- and my conscience and the Holy Spirit confirm that what I am saying is true.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
My father is a Christian, and he believes that not all Christians speak in tongues.

---

So it's possible to be a Christian and not believe in the necessity of tongues as long as you speak in tongues at least once in your life ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
Why ? Because his starting point was 'of COURSE God will save these nice people', instead of 'what does the Bible say'.

---

...and what does the Bible actually say:

Romans 10

5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-- the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited May 22, 2002).]

you cannot use two verses written to Christians to try and disprove more lengthy passages which are written to the unsaved. I believe Romans 9 to be true, but I don't use it to attack other Bible passages that explain things in more depth.

MeanMan: The Bible presents ONE consistent message and insight into the nature of God - it is impossible to attack scripture with scripture if you understand both scriptures - please tell me if I misunderstand Romans chapter 10. Please show me these lengthy passages written to the unsaved which preach in depth on the necessity of tongues.
The only passages I can find which are written specifically about tongues or deal with it in any detail are 1 Corinthians 12-14 where Paul is talking about members of the church being like parts of the body with different gifts. I am interested to hear your understanding of Romans 10 if you say you truly believe it, and the following verses...

Matthew 12 6 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Luke 6 37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

John 3 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John 5 24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live."

Romans 2 1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited May 25, 2002).]

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can you love your neighbour one day and condemn him to hell the next ? No. THE FINAL JUDGEMENT IS GOD'S.

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Actually, I cannot condemn or save anyone. Nor is it loving my neighbour to hide the Gospel from them if GOD has judged them lacking, by virtue of the absence of the Holy Spirit in their life.

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MeanMan: The Bible presents ONE consistent message and insight into the nature of God - it is impossible to attack scripture with scripture if you understand both scriptures - please tell me if I misunderstand Romans
chapter 10. Please show me these lengthy passages written to the unsaved which preach in depth on the necessity of tongues.

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John 3, Luke 11, Mark 16, Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19.

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Matthew 126 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

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This is specifically about the Sabbath, and the Pharisees causing the Law to be a burden to the people. What does it have to say about our discussion ? I am confused.

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Luke 637"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

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My place is to judge you in relation to our ability to relate. God's place is to judge you in regard to eternal life. I have mercy on you by speaking His judgement. Can MY mercy save your soul, or is the best I can do to direct you to the mercy that God offers you ?

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John 316 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world,but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned alreadybecause he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

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The word believe means more than mental assent, or even emotional commitment. Jesus said 'why say you love me and do not the things I say ?' John 3:8 correctly translated says that the Spirit breathes where He chooses and your hear His voice but cannot tell from where it comes or where it goes. It's talking about speaking in tongues.

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John 524 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a timeis coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice ofthe Son of God and those who hear will live."

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The devils believe, according to the Bible. You don't understand what the Bible means when it says 'believe'. It means to believe what Jesus said, and to show it by doing what He said.

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Romans 21 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someoneelse, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemningyourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

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Amen - we must take the log out of our own eye before looking to remove the speck in anothers. But the point that traditional religious people seem incapable of getting is that if I accept you as a brother or not, either way I make judgement in regard to your position in the Gospel. The point is not to be wishy washy and accept everyone ( as Jesus did not do ), but to be careful to make your own position secure first, and then speak the judgement of God.

John 3
I think you'll find we both agree that "believing" in God means carrying out His will, we just disgree as to what His will is . I honestly can't find anything in this chapter that says ALL christians speak in tongues. Please help.

Luke 11
It talks about God giving gifts which I believe also (please recall I go to a church where speaking in tongues, prophecy are common - just not idolized), and warns about looking for signs, but again I can't find anything about tongues being necessary for salvation.

Mark 16
At last - one that actually mentions speaking in tongues - to quote:

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

So we have a list of things that the believers will be doing. I am guessing that you think this means we all do all of them ? So I am curious - have you ever done the last three mentioned ? (Please don't go drinking poison)

Acts 2
Describes the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost, and the Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit (described as tongues of fire landing on them) and then speaking in tongues. Why do you conclude from this that speaking in tongues is necessary - but having tongues of fire landing on you isn't ?

Acts 8
So Samaria accepts the Word of God, and is baptized in the name of Lord Jesus, but hasn't yet recieved the Holy Spirit, so Peter and John go pray for them, and they do receive the Holy Spirit. So you think accepting the Word of God isn't enough to be saved ?

Acts 10
Getting more relevant. Peter is preaching acceptance of the Gentiles when the Holy Spirit comes down on the crowd of Gentiles and they start speaking in tongues (lucky for you they didn't start drinking poison ). What are you concluding from this ? That any manifestation of the Holy Spirit always involves speaking in tongues - the same logic would argue that prophecy by its absence in this passage is never a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19
Paul finds some disciples in Ephesus who have been baptized by John and haven't yet recieved the Holy Spirit, so he baptizes them in the name of Jesus, lays hands on them, and they receive the Holy Spirit and start speaking in tongues and prophecizing. See above.

I asked you for lengthy passages showing the necessity of speaking in tongues, and you sent me every chapter you could find that had a line or two describing people speaking in tongues. Isn't there a single line of scripture that clearly states speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation ?

Now my turn to quote scripture - Paul talking about the body of Christ which you insist refers to a (singular) gathering of Christians

11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited June 05, 2002).]

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John 3
I think you'll find we both agree that "believing" in God means carrying out His will, we just disgree as to what His will is . I honestly can't find anything in this chapter that says ALL christians speak in tongues. Please help.

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You'll need a literal translation to find that John 3:8 says that the spirit breathes where He chooses and you hear His voice but cannot tell from where it comes or where it goes, and so is everyone born of the Spirit.

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Luke 11
It talks about God giving gifts which I believe also (please recall I go to a church where speaking in tongues, prophecy are common - just not idolized), and warns about looking for signs, but again I can't find anything about tongues being necessary for salvation.

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Jesus is asked how we should pray, gives a model of the sort of things to pray for, and launches into a parable and several exmaples, as well as explicit instructions to ask, and keep on asking until we recieve. He is also explicit about what He is referring to - the Holy Spirit. He was still answering the question. How should we pray ? In the Spirit -> tongues, as well as in our own language.

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Mark 16
At last - one that actually mentions speaking in tongues - to quote:

17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

So we have a list of things that the believers will be doing. I am guessing that you think this means we all do all of them ? So I am curious - have you ever done the last three mentioned ? (Please don't go drinking poison)

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Like Jesus, I know not to put the Lord to the test. You are mocking scripture here, I merely believe it without taking it out of context. A promise of protection is not a challenge to be foolish.

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Acts 2
Describes the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost, and the Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit (described as tongues of fire landing on them) and then speaking in tongues. Why do you conclude from this that speaking in tongues is necessary - but having tongues of fire landing on you isn't ?

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Because it does not say that - it spread like a fire. You think a bunch of guys in a small room would do anything but run in panic if they saw fire spreading through their hair ? Peter idenitifes the Holy Spirit being poured out with 'what you see and hear', i.e. tongues.

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Acts 8
So Samaria accepts the Word of God, and is baptized in the name of Lord Jesus, but hasn't yet recieved the Holy Spirit, so Peter and John go pray for them, and they do receive the Holy Spirit. So you think accepting the Word of God isn't enough to be saved ?

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I think that any man who has not the Spirit of Christ is none of His. The real questions are, how did they know they had the Holy Spirit, and do you either believe in salvation apart from the Spirit, or do you accept that believers do not have salvation simply through belief, or even water baptism ?

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Acts 10
Getting more relevant. Peter is preaching acceptance of the Gentiles when the Holy Spirit comes down on the crowd of Gentiles and they start speaking in tongues (lucky for you they didn't start drinking poison ). What are you concluding from this ? That any manifestation of the Holy Spirit always involves speaking in tongues - the same logic would argue that prophecy by its absence in this passage is never a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

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Actually, you're right. 1 Cor 12 says there are many gifts, but one manifestation given for the common good. All these passages in Acts establish that manifestation as tongues. Indeed, two of the 1 Cor 12 gifts were present amongst people who did not have the Spirit in Acts 8 ) faith and healing ).

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Acts 19
Paul finds some disciples in Ephesus who have been baptized by John and haven't yet recieved the Holy Spirit, so he baptizes them in the name of Jesus, lays hands on them, and they receive the Holy Spirit and start speaking in tongues and prophecizing. See above.

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The most important part is before he knew they were John's disciples, he asked them 'have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed'.

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I asked you for lengthy passages showing the necessity of speaking in tongues, and you sent me every chapter you could find that had a line or two describing people speaking in tongues. Isn't there a single line of scripture that clearly states speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation ?

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No, because it's not a *bad* thing to speak in tongues. Plenty of verses make clear that God offers this gift as part of salvation, but for some reason, the world is full of people who want to use 1 Cor 12 to suggest it lists 9 gifts, some of which everyone has, but some of which clearly are only for a few. That makes no sense at all.

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Now my turn to quote scripture - Paul talking about the body of Christ which you insist refers to a (singular) gathering of Christians

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So you think only some Christians have faith, only some have wisdom, only some can pray to be healed, and only some speak in tongues ?

[This message has been edited by lostreflections (edited June 05, 2002).]

4 Now there are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but it is the same Holy Spirit who is the source of them all. 5 There are different kinds of service in the church, but it is the same Lord we are serving. 6 There are different ways God works in our lives, but it is the same God who does the work through all of us. 7 A spiritual gift is given to each of us as a means of helping the entire church. 8To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another he gives the gift of special knowledge. 9 The Spirit gives special faith to another, and to someone else he gives the power to heal the sick. 10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and to another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to know whether it is really the Spirit of God or another spirit that is speaking. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, and another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11 It is the one and only Holy Spirit who distributes these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.12 The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up only one body. So it is with the body of Christ. ... 27 Now all of you together are Christ's body, and each one of you is a separate and necessary part of it. 28 Here is a list of some of the members that God has placed in the body of Christ: first are apostles, second are prophets, third are teachers, then those who do miracles, those who have the gift of healing, those who can help others, those who can get others to work together, those who speak in unknown languages. 29 Is everyone an apostle? Of course not. Is everyone a prophet? No. Are all teachers? Does everyone have the power to do miracles? 30 Does everyone have the gift of healing? Of course not. Does God give all of us the ability to speak in unknown languages? Can everyone interpret unknown languages? No!

Now if I understand right - your excuse for these passages is that Paul is referring to a specific gathering of christians, and your argument against my understanding of them (that it refers to the church - ie. the body of Christ), is that we ALL have faith and wise advice (things which you clearly deem lesser gifts). So by your understanding then - only some of us have faith during a church service ??

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited June 07, 2002).]

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Originally posted by lostreflections:

Also my last post on this board. Too much arguing.

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Hey lostreflections, don't go! Just do what I do - simply ignore any conversation where MeanMan is involved.

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Now if I understand right - your excuse for these passages is that Paul is referring to a specific gathering of christians, and your argument against my understanding of them (that it refers to the church - ie. the body of Christ), is that we ALL have faith and wise advice (things which you clearly deem lesser gifts). So by your understanding then - only some of us have faith during a church service ??

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1. There are no 'lesser' gifts. Tongues is a lesser gift IN THE CONTEXT of a church meeting, but useful elsewhere.

2. Only some people need to exercise faith in a meeting. Faith is exercised in asking God to heal you, or meet a need, or indeed pray for salvation. Faith can also be exercised if something is presented in a sermon which can be applied to ones own life - faith to go and act on what one has heard. We all HAVE tongues, we all HAVE faith, but in both cases, we do not especially exercise them in any particular meeting.

Our experiences of the Holy Spirit are different. Plain and simple. In my church some people speak in tongues, some people prophecize, some people teach, some people are much better than others at praying for the sick, etc etc. It's not my place to judge your experiences of the Holy Spirit.

Love in Christ

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

I think you're right. It's obvious that nothing short of the return of Jesus is going to end this discussion.

I tend to be careful not to document my experience too much, because doctrine by experience is a dangerous thing. I have experienced that all Christians speak in tounges at the point of conversion, and are equally able to pray for healing, prophecy, interpret, etc., but my experience would mean nothing except that it is a reflection of what the Bible says.

Christian

Most translations use the word "communicated", but the key word is correctly translated "signified," which means to show by signs or symbols. Much of Revelation's truth is conveyed in the figurative language of symbols. But! Those figurative symbols have a literal meaning behind them, or else we have no guide or framework in which to understand them. A key way to understand "how to understand" Revelation, is that (with a few rare exceptions) the symbols used are found elsewhere in Scripture, and so then we may derive a proper understanding of what the symbols are teaching by comparing Scripture with Scripture. The exceptions are symbols which are interpreted by Revelation itself. So, the way to understand Revelation, is to use the rest of the Scriptures. A question that gets raised is, How do we know if something described is a symbol, or literal? A good rule of thumb is, If the first sense, makes common sense, seek no other sense, lest it become nonsense. If Revelation describes God, it means, God. But if Revelation describes "the seven Spirits," by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we can come up with a reasonable understanding, like that found in Isaiah 11, which speaks prophetically of Jesus Christ:
1. And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2. And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

If you count 'em, there are seven "spirits" in verse 2. There is only one Holy Spirit, but this passage shows seven attributes of that one Spirit:
1 the Lord
2 wisdom
3 understanding
4 counsel
5 might
6 knowledge
7 fear of the Lord

The judgments described, I believe, are literally going to happen, which is to say (not in any particular order), rivers will be poisoned by "wormwood", the oceans will be turned to blood, all green grass will be burned up, unrepentant humans will be smitten by loathsome sores, etc. I believe the beheadings described will be just that: beheadings for those who will not bow the knee to the Antichrist. As for the Mark, whatever form it finally takes, it WILL literally involve the number 666. The universal bar codes on virtually all our food products already have 666 imbedded within them. Whether the final mark is a barcode somehow tattooed on the right hand or forehead, only time will reveal, but it will definitely literally involve the right hand or the forehead.

It is my opinion, that the current economic crisis in the world's stock markets may well be preparing the way for a great outcry for a stable currency, which could then open the door for the 666 mark. I don't know this for sure, but it could happen. Time will tell. Oh, and after studying the matter for some time, I believe the Rapture will literally snatch (before the seven year Trib), first, all believers who have died, and then all still-living believers from off the face of the earth, to meet Jesus in the clouds, in the air, and thus we shall ever be with the Lord.

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I believe the beheadings described will be just that: beheadings for those who will not bow the knee to the Antichrist.
|/quote|

THERE IS NO ANTICHRIST !!!!! The Bible says there were MANY Anti-Christs even then. There is no one big bogeyman in our future, nor does the Bible say that.

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As for the Mark, whatever form it finally takes, it WILL literally involve the number 666.
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No, the mark is amongst us, the mark on our head and hands is when our thoughts and actions conform to this world. Do you know what an undertaking it would be to tattoo a mark on every person in China alone, let alone the rest of the world ?

|quote|
The universal bar codes on virtually all our food products already have 666 imbedded within them.
|/quote|

Forgive me for being impolite, but....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA !!

That is just sad and funny at the same time. You're on a programmer site, don't you know anything about bar codes ? They do NOT contain 666, at least no more than they contain 329 or 582, or any other three digit sequence. If they all contain the same number, how do they scan differently ? If they DO all have 666 as a subset of their sequence, why is that so ?

|quote|
Whether the final mark is a barcode somehow tattooed on the right hand or forehead, only time will reveal, but it will definitely literally involve the right hand or the forehead.
|/quote|

Why ? I thought you just said that Rev. is a book full of symbols....

|quote|
It is my opinion, that the current economic crisis in the world's stock markets may well be preparing the way for a great outcry for a stable currency, which could then open the door for the 666 mark. I don't know this for sure, but it could happen. Time will tell. Oh, and after studying the matter for some time, I believe the Rapture will literally snatch (before the seven year Trib), first, all believers who have died, and then all still-living believers from off the face of the earth, to meet Jesus in the clouds, in the air, and thus we shall ever be with the Lord.
|/quote|

There's no tribulation coming, that would make Jesus a liar. He said we suffer no tribulation except what is common to the world. There's no secret rapture, there's no antiChrist. The Jews will not rebuild a temple. No-one will get a tattoo by force. It's all fairy stories derived from half read scripture. Instead, we are IN the great tribulation, waiting for the return of Jesus, at which point Christians will both rise to meet Him ( and be changed ) and then return with Him to rule on Earth. There is no gap in Daniel's prophecy, that would make God a liar. When He ordains something it happens to the letter, not with a 2,000 year pause in the middle. Instead it is the prophecied 1,000 year reign of Jesus to restore the nations that will happen next.

I hold to the Futuristic, which takes Revelation 4-19 to refer to the yet future seven year period of Tribulation, which is the seventieth wwek of Davile (Daniel 9:20-27). Revelation 1-3 treats the current time as the time of the Church Age here on earth, before the Rapture, while Revelation 20 speaks of the thousand-year millennial reign, and Revelation 21-22 deals with the eternal state.

Now, to address the jeers:
>THERE IS NO ANTICHRIST !!!!! The Bible says there were MANY Anti-Christs >even then. There is no one big bogeyman in our future, nor does the Bible <say that.

Technically, we get the name Antichrist from 1 John 18-19: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Since an "antichrist" is one who is opposed to the true Christ, Jesus, it follows that THE Antichrist, would be that man who "opposes and exhalts himself, as follows:
2 Thessalonians 2:3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The usage of "antichrist shall come," from 1 John quoted above, and from 2 Thess 2: "that man", "who", "he", "himself", and "he"; all these mandate one individual man who will personally oppose Christ. The Bible does indeed teach of a coming Antichrist presiding over a reign of hell on earth, whose reign will be terminated by Jesus Himself who will put a stop to him.

>No, the mark is amongst us, the mark on our head and hands is when our >thoughts and actions conform to this world. Do you know what an >undertaking it would be to tattoo a mark on every person in China alone, >let alone the rest of the world ?

Do you, as a computer programmer, fail to understand the potency of technology, which continues to grow beyond our wildest dreams? Our great-grandparents' generation scoffed at Revelation 11:9. God's two witnesses (2 actual individuals) are slain and lie in the streets of Jerusalem. First, prior to WWII, there wasn't a nation of Israel, nor was there a Jewish presence in Jerusalem, and certainly there were no Jewish prophets in its streets. Then WWII, Hitler, and the Holocaust brokered world sympathy, and Israel was reborn in May, 1948. In the 6-Day War in 1967, the Jews recaptured Jerusalem.

A skeptic back in our great-grandparents day might say, well, ok, so there might be a Jewish presense there again someday, but there is still a literal impossibility in this verse:

Revelation 11:9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

You see, they would cry, it's impossible for all the world "to see" their dead bodies in Jerusalem in the pace of only 3 1/2 days. It would take weeks, if not months, to travel to Jerusalem, and they only have under 4 days. But! satellite television not only allows us to see within 4 days, but live, as-it-happens, as was demonstrated during Desert Storm. Why, then, should we marvel at the possibility of computer --and other--technology to implement a literal Mark economy, in which every person on Earth has to "buy into" the system , or be left out of the economy? On the face of it, it's not actually a bad thing, in of itself--it's just that taking that Mark associates the recipient with worshipping Satan, and that buys them a ticket to Hell. The spiritial ramifications are what make the Mark a vileness. And as for the world world buying into it, what about the Internet itself? Look how computers are linking all the globe already?

>|quote|
>The universal bar codes on virtually all our food products already have >666 imbedded within them.
>|/quote|

>Forgive me for being impolite, but....

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA !!

>That is just sad and funny at the same time. You're on a programmer site, >don't you know anything about bar codes ? They do NOT contain 666, at >least no more than they contain 329 or 582, or any other three digit >sequence. If they all contain the same number, how do they scan >differently ? If they DO all have 666 as a subset of their sequence, why >is that so ?

I am apparently aware of information that you do not possess. 666 IS in the bar codes. The most standard UPC symbol has a pair of 2 thin uniform lines, then a series of varying line pairs, a center pair of 2 thin uniform lines, another series of varying line pairs, and finally, a third pair of 2 thin uniform lines. These thin uniform line pairs are the number six. The left set of varying lines follow a different encoding than the right set of varying lines. Hence, when you see a line pair with a given number on the left, that number will have a different pair on the right. This was to allow the computer scanners to know which side they were approaching the bar code from. The number six pair at the left, middle and right ARE the number six!
|quote|
Whether the final mark is a barcode somehow tattooed on the right hand or forehead, only time will reveal, but it will definitely literally involve the right hand or the forehead.
|/quote|

Why ? I thought you just said that Rev. is a book full of symbols....

|quote|
>It is my opinion, that the current economic crisis in the world's stock >markets may well be preparing the way for a great outcry for a stable >currency, which could then open the door for the 666 mark. I don't know >this for sure, but it could happen. Time will tell. Oh, and after >studying the matter for some time, I believe the Rapture will literally >snatch (before the seven year Trib), first, all believers who have died, >and then all still-living believers from off the face of the earth, to >meet Jesus in the clouds, in the air, and thus we shall ever be with the >Lord.
|/quote|

>There's no tribulation coming, that would make Jesus a liar. He said we >suffer no tribulation except what is common to the world. There's no >secret rapture, there's no antiChrist. The Jews will not rebuild a >temple. No-one will get a tattoo by force. It's all fairy stories derived >from half read scripture. Instead, we are IN the great tribulation, >waiting for the return of Jesus, at which point Christians will both rise >to meet Him ( and be changed ) and then return with Him to rule on Earth. >There is no gap in Daniel's prophecy, that would make God a liar. When He >ordains something it happens to the letter, not with a 2,000 year pause >in the middle. Instead it is the prophecied 1,000 year reign of Jesus to >restore the nations that will happen next.

It is not all faery stories, but a fair, stable and thoughtful understanding gotten from countless hours of very carefully studied Scriptures. We are not in the Tribulation, and yes, there IS a gap between the sixty-ninth week and seventieth week of Daniel of the Danile chapter 9 prophecy of the 70 weeks. These things are discoverable by study, and comparing Scripture with Scripture.

In conclusion, I realize some do not accept this point of view about Bible prophecy. But, if you consider yourself a Christian, you may want to show a more charity in your disagreement.

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

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Well, since my point of view is being jeered at, I guess I'd best state further where I am coming from, so we have a coherent and thought-provoking picture. There are about six schools of thought on how to interpret Revelation: Critical, Allergorical, Preterit, Historical, Topical and Futuristic.

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Gosh - I thought there were three. Up until the middle ages, the church held to the historical view.

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I hold to the Futuristic, which takes Revelation 4-19 to refer to the yet future seven year period of Tribulation, which is the seventieth wwek of Davile (Daniel 9:20-27). Revelation 1-3 treats the current time as the time of the Church Age here on earth, before the Rapture, while Revelation 20 speaks of the thousand-year millennial reign, and Revelation 21-22 deals with the eternal state.

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And I've detailed my objections to the idea that God made a time based promise and put it to sleep for 2,000 years, as well as the idea of a future tribulation, from the Bible.

quote:

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Since an "antichrist" is one who is opposed to the true Christ, Jesus, it follows that THE Antichrist, would be that man who "opposes and exhalts himself, as follows:
2 Thessalonians 2:3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The usage of "antichrist shall come," from 1 John quoted above, and from 2 Thess 2: "that man", "who", "he", "himself", and "he"; all these mandate one individual man who will personally oppose Christ. The Bible does indeed teach of a coming Antichrist presiding over a reign of hell on earth, whose reign will be terminated by Jesus Himself who will put a stop to him.

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No, I can see how you derive this belief from these scriptures, but your interpretation is incorrect. The main reason being the whole 'reign of hell on earth' idea which the Bible does not support.

quote:

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>No, the mark is amongst us, the mark on our head and hands is when our >thoughts and actions conform to this world. Do you know what an >undertaking it would be to tattoo a mark on every person in China alone, >let alone the rest of the world ?

Do you, as a computer programmer, fail to understand the potency of technology, which continues to grow beyond our wildest dreams?

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I think that this is a different question. As a programmer am I in awe of technology and believe they can do anything, and people will just let them ? No.

quote:

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Our great-grandparents' generation scoffed at Revelation 11:9. God's two witnesses (2 actual individuals) are slain and lie in the streets of Jerusalem. First, prior to WWII, there wasn't a nation of Israel, nor was there a Jewish presence in Jerusalem, and certainly there were no Jewish prophets in its streets. Then WWII, Hitler, and the Holocaust brokered world sympathy, and Israel was reborn in May, 1948. In the 6-Day War in 1967, the Jews recaptured Jerusalem.

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*sigh* For starters, the people in Israel are from every nation on earth. Israel was a nation in the OT.

quote:

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A skeptic back in our great-grandparents day might say, well, ok, so there might be a Jewish presense there again someday, but there is still a literal impossibility in this verse:

Revelation 11:9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

You see, they would cry, it's impossible for all the world "to see" their dead bodies in Jerusalem in the pace of only 3 1/2 days. It would take weeks, if not months, to travel to Jerusalem, and they only have under 4 days. But! satellite television not only allows us to see within 4 days, but live, as-it-happens, as was demonstrated during Desert Storm. Why, then, should we marvel at the possibility of computer --and other--technology to implement a literal Mark economy, in which every person on Earth has to "buy into" the system , or be left out of the economy?

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Because you're assuming that someone somehow gets the power to do it. You're saying the whole world will starve, or they'll find a way to mark everyone within a day ?

quote:

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On the face of it, it's not actually a bad thing, in of itself--it's just that taking that Mark associates the recipient with worshipping Satan, and that buys them a ticket to Hell. The spiritial ramifications are what make the Mark a vileness. And as for the world world buying into it, what about the Internet itself? Look how computers are linking all the globe already?

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So what ? The Internet is an example of human nature - most of it is used for sin, but God's people can use it for good.

Jesus said it's not what goes into a person that defiles them, but what comes out. You disagree - you think a tattoo on the hand will send someone to hell, while I say it's our thoughts and actions that do that.

quote:

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>That is just sad and funny at the same time. You're on a programmer site, >don't you know anything about bar codes ? They do NOT contain 666, at >least no more than they contain 329 or 582, or any other three digit >sequence. If they all contain the same number, how do they scan >differently ? If they DO all have 666 as a subset of their sequence, why >is that so ?

I am apparently aware of information that you do not possess.

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Yes, but where did you get it, the Weekly World News ?

quote:

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666 IS in the bar codes. The most standard UPC symbol has a pair of 2 thin uniform lines, then a series of varying line pairs, a center pair of 2 thin uniform lines, another series of varying line pairs, and finally, a third pair of 2 thin uniform lines. These thin uniform line pairs are the number six. The left set of varying lines follow a different encoding than the right set of varying lines. Hence, when you see a line pair with a given number on the left, that number will have a different pair on the right. This was to allow the computer scanners to know which side they were approaching the bar code from. The number six pair at the left, middle and right ARE the number six!

---

So a barcode contains three sixes, NOT 666 ? Even if it did, even if this were true ( and I still don't believe it ), the question is, who cares ? What does it matter to me ? Not an iota. Who are you claiming put them there ?

quote:

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It is not all faery stories, but a fair, stable and thoughtful understanding gotten from countless hours of very carefully studied Scriptures. We are not in the Tribulation, and yes, there IS a gap between the sixty-ninth week and seventieth week of Daniel of the Danile chapter 9 prophecy of the 70 weeks. These things are discoverable by study, and comparing Scripture with Scripture.

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Fair enough. Where does the Bible say God needed to rest between the 69th and 70th weeks ?

quote:

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In conclusion, I realize some do not accept this point of view about Bible prophecy. But, if you consider yourself a Christian, you may want to show a more charity in your disagreement.

---

To be honest, I don't put a lot of time into this forum because it is so dead. I have little expectation of you coming to a true understanding of these issues, not until Jesus returns and you're standing there wondering why the boogey man didn't show up. I just posted a response because I was intending to say you were doing well ( in that you suggested that Revelation is a book that needs interpretation ), but was disappointed to see you said that, but did not mean it, because you cling to the comic book interpretation of these verses.

as far as the 69week, 70 week thing, rapture thing, meanman take some time to study it, as far aas teh rapture is concerned, i don't know what to believe, i've studied both sides, premellenial, post mellenial etc.. i just know that i am to live my live , abiding in Christ every day, being prepared.. and let GOd deal with the rest...

meanman, the reason you can't accept the 69 week thing is your belief in british israelism, you don't beleive that GOd himself brought back the jews to israel etc, or anything like that, but you believe that us british and americans are the true israelites...
thus that taints your understanding of christianity and all doctrine must be conformed to that...
However the scripture clearing talks about the age of the gentiles, and also of the church... and the end of the age of the gentiles.... maybe that is this so called "rest" of GOd but actually God has been moving much amoung this time, with much salvation and fruit..

there are many signs of the end times..
but there is one that i gauge things by primarily..
Jesus said, that when the gospel has been preached to all people groups the end will come.. that hasn't happened yet.. thats why i know Jesus aint coming back this afternoon... the purpose of the church, and the reason God has put the end on Hold (For he wills that none would perish, for His great love, Longersuffering (he suffers more than us) is waiting for the church to fufill its destiny...waiting for the church to preach the gospel to all ethnos..

sirgak,
please take teh words meanman says to you in context, He is in a church that most apologetists etc consider a cult, where you must speak in tounges to be saved,britism-israelism and Pyramidology..

meanman, as far as the effort it would take to give all the chinese a tatooe.. what about the effort it takes to feed the population of the earth? if the people who wanted the mark's hearts were closed to GOd and they were desiring this thing very much, then of course they would make a way.. i don't know what the mark of the beast will be like.. i believe its more than just 'what you think and do' however, the bible says quite literally.. about what you think and do cannot be something that will restrict your ability to buy and sell... i see the bar code as a warning of what might be to come...

however with everything, revelations and the endtime, or any aspect of christianity isn't our focus

Jesus is our focus.. and its important to keep the main thing the main thing..

Karl

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

It has been at least 15 years since I studied British Israelism, but I never found the doctrine that you claim that "the British & the Americans are the true Israelites". I do not follow it, but AFAIK British Israelism teaches that Americans are descended from Manesseh, The British are descended from Ephriam, The Dutch from Zebulon, The nation of Israel is descended from Judah, and it continues with various countries descended from the remaining tribes (which I do not remember without going and looking it up) which constitute the true nation of Israel. How you manage to twist that into "british and americans are the true israelites" is beyond me. I believe you should remain factual when rebuking a false doctrine. If you resort to knackering a false doctrine to be able to prove your point, this is just as bad as the false doctrine you are trying to rebuke which knackers the truth.

Oddly enough the false doctrine of British Israelism usually accompanies such doctrines as "Saturday for Sunday", "Clean vs Unclean meats", and other legalistic beliefs that, along with British Israelism, are clearly refuted in the New Testament.

Regardless, meanman by his actions and juvenile, caustic invective certainly proves that he is not a true Christian or he would not be such a nasty prick towards people. Nothing wrong with debating beliefs, but nobody has the right to be so nasty when doing so. Perhaps you can just ignore him in the future Sirgak?

I do agree with meanman in regards to this forum. It is the deadest forum I have ever seen. Thats pretty sad and the lurker ratio is even sadder A good forum and some really nice and caring people (meanman excluded) here. It is nice to be on a forum where arrogant, condescending, judgmental attitudes are in the minority.

------------------
Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

[This message has been edited by lostreflections (edited August 05, 2002).]

I'm sorry that the few words i spoke, which weren't the focus of my message, got you hung up, and missed the focus of my words, which is to focus on Jesus, rather than this or that doctrine or aspect, that isn't central to the theme of the gospel..

Karl

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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Originally posted by klumsy:
sorry, i could have gone into how Dan is denmark etc etc

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I was just making a point is all, meant no harm

------------------
Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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Regardless, meanman by his actions and juvenile, caustic invective certainly proves that he is not a true Christian or he would not be such a nasty prick towards people.

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I just don't get why it is that the Bible doesn't matter to you people, that swearing is OK in your book, but if I tell it like it is, I am being nasty. I also loved the assumption that because I don't believe the false doctrine of Daniels 69 weeks, I haven't studied the issue. My views on this have nothing at all to do with BI, which Karl grossly misrepresented, as was noted.

I am always saddened when people try to establish if someone is a Christian by looking in the wrong places ( for example, was he nice to me when I spread lies about Jesus ).

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by meanmaninoz:
I just don't get why it is that the Bible doesn't matter to you people, that swearing is OK in your book,

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Obviously the Bible does not matter too much you if you believe in British Israelism. The NT rebukes this "lost tribe" doctrine in several places.

I looked, and I have yet to see where anybody used any swear words towards you in this thread.

However, most religions have their versions of "what goes around, comes around". In your Bible it is "you reap what you sow". You are an extrememly nasty individual to people (even to a newbie on the board), but you have the audacity to get upset when somebody stands up to you and treats you the exact way you treat others?

You give the Bible based Christians on this board a bad name

------------------
Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

2. I can't actually tell who is a newbie, most people seem to post so infrequently, but I do know that pretty much everyone here has announced that Christianity means rejecting what I have to say, and me personally. So I apologise if the person I replied to had not yet been indoctrinated to this POV.

3. I guess it depends on what you consider a swear word. My test is, would I say it to my grandmother, seeing as the point of the Bible rejecting coarse language is so we can be 'all things to all men', not because a certain collection of syllables is recorded in heaven as sinful.

4. I'm interested to know your definition of 'Bible based'.

Nor do I. I thought we were discussing British Israelism ie, The tribes that were supposedly lost when captured by the Assyrians in the 8th century B.C., but miraculously are mentioned in the NT writings that are clearly A.D.?

Personally, I do not know what denomination you claim, but although the British Israelism doctrine is usually traced back to Richard Brothers in the late 1700's to the early 1800's, the Armstrongs are the ones who put this doctrine on the map. I did a 100,000 word Doctoral Thesis on the problems with Armstrongism and I am very familiar with British Israelism, and all of the other doctrines the Armstrong's have come up with. I have followed the major splits from the collapse of WCG and the collapse of CGI. The COGPKG has even gone to the extent that Rob Reinland's has made it doctrine that Herbert W. Armstrong WAS the second Elijah.

Forgive me for not accepting a doctrine that is unbiblical, and screams of WASPism and Nazism. Being an American Indian I am all too familiar with the genocide conducted by the first WASPs in America (according to British Israelism, this would be the descendents of Manesseh) and I am all too familiar with the genocide conducted against the Jews during WW2 and the antisemitism that is currently gaining in Europe once again and the Arab countries.

>>2. I can't actually tell who is a newbie, most people seem to post so infrequently,<<

The home page of the board says:

Newest Member:
SirGak

I don't like to see newbies jumped on. Especially when they have done nothing wrong. On a Christian board, opinions will vary. Every denomination is convinced they are right, just as every religion is convinced they are right.

I see no point in arguing over anything religion related as it is futile, BUT if we must argue about it, can't we do it in a civil manner and not be mean to others just because we disagree with them?

When Christ walked the Earth, He did not think very highly of those who thought they were the ones with the right answers and knew all there was to know about God. Instead Christ preached to the ones who were ridiculed and rejected by the religious system in place in His day and he treated all of them with kindness and love. Shouldn't Christians today do the same?

The last sermon I ever gave was on the woman at the well. I believe that all Christians should treat others with the kindness and love Christ showed towards this woman.

>>but I do know that pretty much everyone here has announced that Christianity means rejecting what I have to say, and me personally.<<

Nah, I seriously doubt anybody here dislikes you because of your beliefs. I know I don't. Hate and anger are such wasted emotions. I think your attitude definitely plays into how you are treated though. Still I doubt anybody dislikes you.

>>I guess it depends on what you consider a swear word.<<

For me, anything in the Dictionary is acceptable. If you took offense to "Prick", it is a common synonym for "jerk" and in my dictionary when used like that is defined as "a person regarded as highly unpleasant."

Although I am not a Christian I will put my morals against those of any Christian. I always try (and fail miserably) to treat others with kindness, I am very selective as to what my children watch on TV or Videos and Music. In our house the major entertainment is reading, listening to sermon tapes/teaching tapes and listening to old radio shows instead of watching TV. We homeschool our kids (must be doing something right in the schooling as the eldest got into Loyola last year). We have a lot of family time and I am a very hands on parent.

>>4. I'm interested to know your definition of 'Bible based'.<<

The Bible tells us we are to judge a tree by the fruit it produces. Unfortunately too many self-professing Christians only produce unripened persimmons. Those who do not nacker the Bible to support their beliefs and those who treat their fellow man using the example Christ gave us, would definitely be producing good fruit.

------------------
Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

quote:

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Forgive me for not accepting a doctrine that is unbiblical, and screams of WASPism and Nazism.

---

Well, I guess you don't know what the BI doctrine is then. It's got nothing to do with racism, nothing to do with salvation and nothing to do with the Gospel.

quote:

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Being an American Indian I am all too familiar with the genocide conducted by the first WASPs in America (according to British Israelism, this would be the descendents of Manesseh) and I am all too familiar with the genocide conducted against the Jews during WW2 and the antisemitism that is currently gaining in Europe once again and the Arab countries.

---

And it is equally true that racism against Arab people has been a problem in the US in recent times. And none of that has anything to do with what I am talking about, although the truths in BI are misrepresented by racists, even as the Gospel itself is misrepresented by people for their own ends at times.

quote:

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The home page of the board says:

Newest Member:
SirGak

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I missed that.... To be honest, I rarely come here, and when I do, it's only to see if anyone has answered me, which can take months. I was waiting for some code to compile today and I jumped in.

quote:

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I don't like to see newbies jumped on. Especially when they have done nothing wrong. On a Christian board, opinions will vary. Every denomination is convinced they are right, just as every religion is convinced they are right.

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I hate to see newbies jumped on too, and I am truly sorry for that. As I said before, I usually do not post here, and when I do I am accustomed to people grouping together to reassure one another that what I say from the Bible is wrong, and I have no love &tc.

quote:

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I see no point in arguing over anything religion related as it is futile, BUT if we must argue about it, can't we do it in a civil manner and not be mean to others just because we disagree with them?

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I'm all for that, I think perhaps I've been behind the 8 ball from the start here, and that I've never really been able to have a sensible discussion with anyone here, largely because my first post was one of bemusement at the silliness ( in my opinion ) of the whole idea of video games being Christian in any way.

quote:

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When Christ walked the Earth, He did not think very highly of those who thought they were the ones with the right answers and knew all there was to know about God. Instead Christ preached to the ones who were ridiculed and rejected by the religious system in place in His day and he treated all of them with kindness and love. Shouldn't Christians today do the same?

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Christians should seek to encourage living a faithful life rather than self righteousness, as Jesus did.

quote:

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The last sermon I ever gave was on the woman at the well. I believe that all Christians should treat others with the kindness and love Christ showed towards this woman.

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I agree - but the point most people miss when preaching on that topic is that Jesus said to 'go and sin no more'. He was not preaching a license to sin and expect forgiveness. I'm not saying you claimed otherwise, just making a point now that you bring it up.

quote:

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Nah, I seriously doubt anybody here dislikes you because of your beliefs. I know I don't. Hate and anger are such wasted emotions. I think your attitude definitely plays into how you are treated though. Still I doubt anybody dislikes you.

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As I said, I don't think the manner of my arrival helped me any, but I certainly don't post here expecting anyone to take me seriously anymore.

quote:

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For me, anything in the Dictionary is acceptable. If you took offense to "Prick", it is a common synonym for "jerk" and in my dictionary when used like that is defined as "a person regarded as highly unpleasant."

---

The dictionary contains the 'f' word as well. Like I said, I think the point is not to offend anyone who may take offense to a word, even if it's become common to use it in society today. It's about causing no offence but for the Gospels sake.

quote:

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Although I am not a Christian I will put my morals against those of any Christian.

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Given the low number of people who accept that label who are actually filled with the Holy Spirit, you'd probably stand a good chance of winning.

quote:

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I always try (and fail miserably) to treat others with kindness, I am very selective as to what my children watch on TV or Videos and Music. In our house the major entertainment is reading, listening to sermon tapes/teaching tapes and listening to old radio shows instead of watching TV. We homeschool our kids (must be doing something right in the schooling as the eldest got into Loyola last year). We have a lot of family time and I am a very hands on parent.

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I know, I saw in the other thread :0) In our house it's mostly the computer, actually. We have two, and they both love it. Hannah is ahead at school as a direct result of the stuff we do together on the PC.

quote:

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The Bible tells us we are to judge a tree by the fruit it produces. Unfortunately too many self-professing Christians only produce unripened persimmons. Those who do not nacker the Bible to support their beliefs and those who treat their fellow man using the example Christ gave us, would definitely be producing good fruit.

---

For a tree to grow it must be planted. You are right, a good tree produces good fruit, but that is not just a matter of being a nice person. Plenty of non-Christians do that as well, yourself included from the sound of it. The Bible definition of a Christian is someone filled with the Holy Spirit, with evidence as defined by God. From there we must also show good fruits, of course.

I never said it had anything to do with racism, although it is a somewhat "exclusive" doctrine. I suggest it can lead to it. Just as people pervert any doctrine into something evil.

I am very familiar with the doctrine, but I stumble on how can the tribes have been lost when even James 1:1 is addressed to the "twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" Unless he had been licking toads why would he address this to tribes that supposedly didn't exist? Luke 2:36; Acts 26:6,7; and Revelation 7:4-8 also make reference to the 12 tribes still existing. The words "Hebrew", "Jew" and "Israelite" were often used interchangably as exampled by comparing Phil. 3:5, Acts 21:39;22:2; II Cor. 11:22. Along with the BI doctrine, these usually follow "Saturday for Sunday", "Clean Meats", "holy days", etc based on covenants that were made with the nation of Israel and never given to the Gentiles. Col 2:16;17 "let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of any holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days; which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ" Verse 14 declares "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."

Even if I believed BI, I do not see the doctrine as a Salvation issue. In all honesty, other than reading some of the same books the Armstrongs did, I have personally not run into any other denomination practicing BI other than Armstrong offshoots.

>And it is equally true that racism against Arab people has been a problem in the US in recent times.<

With out a doubt. Might as well include the Japanese too. They were treated very badly during WW2. Slavery didn't go over too well either.

>>I missed that.... <<

FWIW, His date of registering is also shown under his name in the post you responded to.

>>I'm all for that, I think perhaps I've been behind the 8 ball from the start here, and that I've never really been able to
have a sensible discussion with anyone here<<

Unless you are of the exact same faith, is it really possible to have a sensible discussion in regards to religion?

Perhaps if you were more active on the forum (know that is hard when it is so dead) people would get to know you better.

>>largely because my first post was one of bemusement at the silliness ( in my opinion ) of the whole idea of video games being Christian in any way.<<

FWIW, most games I have seen promoted here as "Christian" are just as vile as any secular game on the market. Violence of any type has no business in a video game aimed at kids, this includes guns, swords, etc. And I am saddened by the number of RPGs shown here that involve "magic" to some extent. There are few games shown here that I would let my children play or I myself would play.

Around here the only console we have is the 2600 and I have hundreds of games for it. I remember when games concentrated on fun and game play instead of trying to emulate reality. Games should be an escape from the evils of reality, not a reminder of it.

>>He was
not preaching a license to sin and expect forgiveness. I'm not saying you claimed otherwise, just making a point now that you bring it up.<<

I agree. Was an evangelical sermon (included an altar call) and focused on unconditional love. Was so long ago, I can barely remember what I said. I have a tape of it somewhere (not the best quality), if I can find it, I will put it up as a MP3.

>>As I said, I don't think the manner of my arrival helped me any, but I certainly don't post here expecting anyone to take
me seriously anymore.<<

I may not agree with everything you believe but I have no animosity towards you as long as you don't jump on newbies Hehe j/k I honestly could care less what people believe as long as they do not try to force their beliefs on me.

>>The dictionary contains the 'f' word as well<<

hmm... I know some did until the 19th century. I was not aware of any that currently do. Regardless it is just a word. I think it is more appropiate to call a person the "F" word than punch them in the nose. I have yet to see that word used on this board though.

>>I know, I saw in the other thread :0) In our house it's mostly the computer, actually. We have two, and they both love it.
Hannah is ahead at school as a direct result of the stuff we do together on the PC.<<

Yeppers, take all the games off the PC and it can actually be used for education. Imagine that! ROFL.

------------------
Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nfektious:

[QUOTE]The Bible definition of a Christian is someone filled with the Holy Spirit, with evidence as defined by God. From there we must also show good fruits, of course.

---

Thanks,
Matt[/QUOTE]

I am curious about that one myself. As, even the man on the cross went to Heaven and he clearly had never been baptized nor had "hands laid on him" nor received the holy siprit.

------------------
Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

i know our beliefs differ, even though actuall i practise alot of the same things, like tounges, maybe even more than you...

however i believe strongly ( and have since before i even found out the info about your church) that the balance of unhealthy doctrines goes so far, and onto the fundamentals of the gospel that your church is a cult.. I pray that you are saved, and others in your church also.. but in good conseience i can't but not point that out to new commers lest they take some of your doctrines and accept them like bait, before being hooked and caught in the web of deception... i mean you'd do the same wouldn't you, if there were JW, or MORMONs, or Bahai's or something in here??

i know its hard, because where do we draw the line, but all cult researchers i have found, have drawn the line and put your church in it...

i heard an interesting quote, which is true, when it comes to most christians and denomintations, but i believe your denomination still in't a christian one... but the quote was something like the following

I am the authority.. my understanding of the bible is right, i am the gauge of the scripture really, anybody who is more strict than i am is a legalist and anybody less strict that i a compromiser..

i don't want to be like that.. i don't want to just be judgemental and condemning... its not just because we disagree, its not because i want to be right and you be wrong, but i feel there is darkness in your denomination and the light needs to shine in there, and thus on this board i am discosing the info of your denomination that you didn't want to divulge for a long time, yet i recieved by word of knowledge, yet at that time i hadn't known anything about your church..

but recently i've found out much about it, actually just a few days ago i met the pastor of the local revical centre here in Napier, New Zealand - my friend is making him a surfboard... i experienced in him the same harshness i sadly find in you.. it broke my heart, and also breaks my heart to find many ex RCI people whose lives have been destroyed by that church, and who are on the long slow road to recovery..

for those here who want to read the doctrines from cult researchers and from the horses mouth, i'm including some links

http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/rci/rci.asp

http://caic.org.au/zrevival.htm

and from the horses mouth - their own site

http://www.rci.org.au/

----------
on the British Israelism,
any anthropologist can pull BI,
i can find more scriptures in the bible to support reincarnation that aren't as far fetched (though of course reincarnation is wrong) as the ones
you use to back up BI.. How could an englishman who was from one lost tribe, jump on a ship to america and then be from a different lost tribe?

plus modern genetics in the last couple of years has found out genes from the decentands of abraham(common to the arabs also),and of jacob( only common to the real israelites) and even of specific groups.. like from aaron, (This is very scary in a sense that genetic technology may be used in the persecution of the israelites in the future)- however other than
those who do having jewish blood in them, americans and englishmen come up negative for these genes..

thoughts to ponder...

Karl
words - maybe not as much in love as i'd have hoped, but i just dislocated my shoulder surfing but a few hours aGO

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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Christians should seek to encourage living a faithful life rather than self righteousness, as Jesus did.
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Maybe it's the sentence structure/grammar but what do you mean by this?

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The person I was responding to was suggesting that Jesus sought out the people who were outcasts from the religious system. I narrowed it down to say that being outside any system is not the point, the point is that Jesus was interested in talking to people who would apply what He had to say, rather than the Pharisees who were not interested in anything God had to say, as they considered themselves to be self sufficient, righteous in their own works.

I was trying to say what James says, that faith is shown by works and not false piety. Or when Jesus said that while it was good for the Pharisees to pay tithes, they needed to also engage in the weightier matters of the law, in other words, those things that engage the heart and mind, that cannot be done by rote.

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The Bible definition of a Christian is someone filled with the Holy Spirit, with evidence as defined by God. From there we must also show good fruits, of course.
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Can you explain your beliefs behind this statement? I want to understand your POV and hopefully your reason for stating this like you did.

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The religious world preaches salvation as being a case of calling yourself a Christian, saying 'I accept Jesus', or a prayer to that effect. In the Bible, when people became Christians, they recieved evidence from God, in the form of speaking in tongues. This is consistent throughout Acts. In fact, Acts 8 records a group of unsaved, baptised believers. Most people do not realise this, because it contradicts what most people believe. Jesus in Luke 11 said we are to keep asking until we have the Holy Spirit, yet before I became a Christian, countless churches told me I had the Holy Spirit because I repeated a prayer not found anywhere in the Bible, in form or substance.

What I meant is that when someone becomes a Christian they by definition speak in tongues, which is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Christian

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Originally posted by klumsy:
meanman,

however i believe strongly ( and have since before i even found out the info about your church) that the balance of unhealthy doctrines goes so far, and onto the fundamentals of the gospel that your church is a cult..

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I wish somebody could enlighten me as to what Denomination he is in.

**This is the problem most nonreligious folk have with all denominations of Christianity and all religions. Every religion believes they are the ones with the "truth". Christianity is divided into thousands of denominations, most of which believe they have the "truth" even to the absurdity of the snake handlers (I would love to see these folks go door to door like the JWs & Mormons trying to get converts).**

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Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

i already did with the links i provided...

here they are again

http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/rci/rci.asp

http://caic.org.au/zrevival.htm

and from the horses mouth - their own site

http://www.rci.org.au/

its called revival centre International..
in the US i doubt you would have heard of it..
its typically an antipodean cult

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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however i believe strongly ( and have since before i even found out the info about your church) that the balance of unhealthy doctrines goes so far, and onto the fundamentals of the gospel that your church is a cult..

i know its hard, because where do we draw the line, but all cult researchers i have found, have drawn the line and put your church in it...

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Ah, yes. The cult sites. An endless source of amusement. I read the contents of the 'freedomofmind' site you link to recently with much laughter. I especially liked the bit which said RCI members are forbidden from using the Internet because the net has so much info revealing our 'true nature' or some such. I tried to write to the site about this, because in fairness, these sites are built on the word of people who have left the church, which is hardly a way to get a balanced account. I found I cannot contact them, but I can talk to the guy who runs it, for $60 per half hour session. Yeah, he cares.

I would encourage anyone interested to read the www.rci.org.au site, it obviously is a true reflection of what we believe and I stand behind all of it. The cult sites I have seen never seem to care about the Bible. They do not ask 'does the Bible say you should do this', they only ask 'do these people say things we do not like'. Yes, we say that there are people who call themselves Christians, and sadly are deluded. The Bible says the same thing. Yes, we put people out of fellowship if they do certain things the Bible says not to do, in that we follow the advice of the apostle Paul in the Corinthian letters. Anything that the rci.org.au site says is true, everything else the freedomofmind site says is a lie.

For example:

it is obvious I am 'allowed' to use the internet.
the number of meetings we have varies, and we do not relentlessly pursue people who cannot make some of them for whatever reason.
Major decisions, including legal decisions do NOT need pastoral approval
NO child is ever told they are evil, or of the devil. I would beat hell out of anyone who spoke to my child like that. In fact we've had parenting meetings where we've been told NEVER to tell a child they are naughty. Calling a child evil is not something that would even occur to us. We talk about the devil a lot less than most groups.
There are not ever changing rules, nor are the 'rules' a secret, they are based on the Bible and people are free to do as they please. The church however, will uphold Biblical standards.
We do NOT have confession in any way shape or form. They are confusing us with catholics here.
It's all such a joke, I feel dirty from repeating these ridiculous allegatins, even from the POV of refuting them. That whole list is lies, or true because it is what the Bible says to do. For example, Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged. Yes, that is true. 'Whatsoever things are true, pure, honest, of good report....' Looks like these people have no regard for the Bible. However, bad thoughts are NOT the devil creeping in, the rest of Pentecost seems to say that, but we do not. Nor is the answer to talk to the pastors and come to more meetings. It's to 'think on these things'.

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i heard an interesting quote, which is true, when it comes to most christians and denomintations, but i believe your denomination still in't a christian one... but the quote was something like the following

I am the authority.. my understanding of the bible is right, i am the gauge of the scripture really, anybody who is more strict than i am is a legalist and anybody less strict that i a compromiser..

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Well, everyone who has a belief by definition thinks it is right. But we should also all ( me included ) be able to be told from the Bible that we are mistaken.

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i don't want to be like that.. i don't want to just be judgemental and condemning... its not just because we disagree, its not because i want to be right and you be wrong, but i feel there is darkness in your denomination and the light needs to shine in there, and thus on this board i am discosing the info of your denomination that you didn't want to divulge for a long time, yet i recieved by word of knowledge, yet at that time i hadn't known anything about your church..

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Ah, yes, your word of knowledge. I'm sorry that you need to claim divine inspiration on your erroneous belief. I'd rather use the Bible to establish what is right and what is wrong.

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but recently i've found out much about it, actually just a few days ago i met the pastor of the local revical centre here in Napier, New Zealand - my friend is making him a surfboard... i experienced in him the same harshness i sadly find in you.. it broke my heart, and also breaks my heart to find many ex RCI people whose lives have been destroyed by that church, and who are on the long slow road to recovery..

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What a pile of baloney. I know people who have left us, and I don't know anyone who is 'recovering', or having problems as a direct result. If we remotely resembled the church described by the sites you've found then that would obviously be the case. However, as I have already said, the site in question is a breathtaking piece of fiction, obviously written by ex members who have a personal agenda, or enjoy the attention, and propogated by people less interested in the truth or the Bible than selling their books and personal appearances.

Christian

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Originally posted by klumsy:
lost reflections

i already did with the links i provided...

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Dah, sorry bookmarked them but did not look at them. I was curious because I was unaware of any denomination that follows British Israelism AND speaking in tounges. Traditionally, BI followers condemn speaking in tounges.

**EDIT** After reading their beliefs I guess I am going to hell since I am not white and not from the tribe of Manasseh. I gladly accept that fate as I in no way would ever want to be connected with the descendents of Manasseh who practiced Genocide/Racial Cleansing/White Supremacy as soon as they set foot on the American continent and continued that into the early 1900s.

Either BI is true or it is not. There are no shades of gray. If it is true, then the Manasseh descendents were some of the most evil, vile people to ever walk the Earth. The history of the first whites in America is well documented.

I guess you really have to consider the source on this one. Since MeanMan is in OZ and believes in BI, and Austrailia was first a penal colony, I guess this speaks volumes for the lost tribe who settled in Austrailia as they were evidently thieving murderers too, based on the history of Austrailia which is well documented.

However, since the New Testament clearly shows that the tribes were NOT lost, then BI is clearly a false doctrine. It all comes down to either God is a liar and the Bible is full of his lies, or the BI believers are liars.

------------------
Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

[This message has been edited by lostreflections (edited August 06, 2002).]

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I was curious because I was unaware of any denomination that follows British Israelism AND speaking in tounges.

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Could I just reiterate that our site is the one to read. Others make many false claims about what we believe, and what we do, as I've already mentioned from one of the 'information' links provided.

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Originally posted by meanmaninoz:
I am always saddened when people try to establish if someone is a Christian by looking in the wrong places ( for example, was he nice to me when I spread lies about Jesus ).

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Me too MeanMan. It breaks my heart to see people trying to decide who is and who isn't. The truth is we can't look into people's hearts like God can, so we make shallow judgements based on what we can see with our eyes.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

A religion started by a Butcher. Oh well, Armstrongism came about from old Herb who was an out of work advertising man. Before the collapse, Armstrongism was certainly more successful than RCI monetary wise, and old Herb cretainly did go into the world and preach the Gospel, unfortunately his Gospel had little to do with the Christian Bible. Oh well, when I lived in FL, a used car dealer named Jim Bargo in Seffner, started his own Chuch. It was as bad as the quality of the cars he sold.

Regardless, even though I detest British Israelism, in no way could I label the beliefs shown on the official RCI site as being a Cult. I would label Baptists a cult before I would RCI. For me a Cult has to be physically, monetarily or otherwise endangering to their members. Scientology falls into the "cult" label by my definition, and LDS is kinda borderline as at times in its histroy tithing has been policed.

RCI is certainly no worse than any other denomination out there that claims to be Christian. Every denomination believes they are they ones who are right and sadly there is only one God (if you believe the Bible) there is not a Schizophrenic God with a different personality for each denomination.

If people would follow the Bible instead of man-made doctrines, there would be happiness. The Bible can be summed up in one word LOVE. If people would only love their neighbor, and forgive thier neighbor when they do wrong, mankind could get along. But with the ego of mankind, this will never happen. If there is a God as Christians believe, prophetic events in the future will certainly be a kick in the groin for the various denominations when they realize their manmade doctrines do not match up with God's. God will be the one sorting it out in the end. Skin color doesn't matter, social status doesn't matter, religion doesn't matter, denomination doesn't matter. No one person, religion or denomination is better than any other. We are all equal in the eyes of God -- We are all sinners.

Other than when MeanMan jumped on Sirgak, I have no problem with him in any way, especially since he apologized for that He seems nice enough to me. Always happy to say G'Day to a mate down under

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Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

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If people would only love their neighbor, and forgive thier neighbor when they do wrong, mankind could get along.

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While that is true, it's also true that the Bible is more interested in man getting along with God than with man. Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword. In context with other verses, He is saying we should do unto others as we would have done to us, we should strive not to cause offence for anything except the Gospel, but if people oppose what God says, we must stand with God rather than man.

The idea obviously is to win people over to what God says, not to attack people for being wrong, but show them what is right. In practice, a lot of people don't want to hear that though. The Bible says this also.

I generally run, self-professing Christians are the ones to be leary of.

>>The idea obviously is to win people over to what God says,<<

This is spiritual masturbation. Until you can be 100% perfect in your relationship with God, you have no business trying to tell others how to live. You can thump a Bible all you want, but in the end, you are just a sinner like everybody else, equal to all, better than none.

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Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

[This message has been edited by lostreflections (edited August 07, 2002).]

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This is spiritual masturbation. Until you can be 100% perfect in your relationship with God, you have no business trying to tell others how to live. You can thump a Bible all you want, but in the end, you are just a sinner like everybody else, equal to all, better than none.

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The New Testament ( and the Old actually ) is full of the call to be 'fishers of men'. Jesus DID say to remote the log from your eye before seeking to remove the twig in someone elses, but speaking the Word of God to people and letting it judge them, hopefully to their benefit, is different to judging them yourself, and is what Jesus calls us to do.

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Originally posted by meanmaninoz:
The New Testament ( and the Old actually ) is full of the call to be 'fishers of men'. Jesus DID say to remote the log from your eye before seeking to remove the twig in someone elses, but speaking the Word of God to people and letting it judge them, hopefully to their benefit, is different to judging them yourself, and is what Jesus calls us to do.

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Sadly this is the arrogance used by every denomination out there that has raped and bastardized Christianity into the "Do as we say, not as we do" religion that it is today. The only thing this teaches a new believer is hypocrisy.

You cannot earn your way into Heaven by racking up a certain number of converts into your man made denominations.

According to everything in the Bible, Christianity is a personal relationship, not a religion. The Bible is VERY clear on its stance on man made beliefs, false prophets, and those who follow man made religious systems.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges. You cannot compare the disciples of Christ who followed his teachings to people who are sucked into these denominations that are following man made doctrines. There is only one God, there is not a God for every denomination.

The Bible says Satan has deceived the world. This is certainly evidenced by the followers of man made denominations. I realize that since you are in a denomination, you are naturally convinced you are right and will never deviate from that. It comes down to either God is a liar or the denominations are liars. No offense, but I prefer to believe God over you.

Sadly, the world is filled with self-professing Christians. If you have to verbally tell people you meet that you are a Christian, there is obviously something lacking in your life where you are saying one thing but acting in another way. If this were not true, people would be able to see that you are a Christian without you having to tell them.

Like it or not, if you are in a denomination, you are a sinner and not worthy of God, just as everybody else is. The only hope for the entirety of mankind is that God looks in our hearts. If he doesn't we are all destined for hell.

------------------
Regards,

Brice

Lost Reflections -- When your life comes crumbling down around you, can you count on the one person who has never been there for you? Lost Reflections is a heart warming story of personal redemption and second chances.

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

Jesus sad we would be known by our fruits, and that is true, it is generally through the fruits that others notice a difference. However, that is different to how WE know we have the Spirit, so we can obey Luke 11 and keep asking until we recieve, and so Acts 8 can make any sort of sense at all.

I've not responded to the other post about being in a denomination being sin because most of what it alleges ( like needing to convert people to be saved, and saying one thing and doing another ) is not what I said at all. The fact remains though, as well as loving God ourselves, we are to show that love in part by telling other people how good He is.

We blaspheme against God when we crush His Word into the kind of simplicity we are capable of understanding.

This will sound cruel but I believe it to be true. You have experienced healing in your life, but you have allowed yourself to be healed by one other than God. One who likes to cure us of one sin by enslaving us in another sin. And that other, more dangerous sin is usually pride.

I pray God would break the power of pride over you. That you would experience true healing in the unconditional love of God. That you would be rooted and grounded in that love, and satisfied by nothing less. I pray this in the strong name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited August 09, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

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This sounds good at first glance, but it isn't sound doctrine. I don't have a clue as to what Luke 11 has to do with the issue here. I also don't understand why you are using Acts 8. Can you explain this to me?

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Luke 11 contains Jesus telling parables and directly ( in the Greek ) telling the apostles they need to keep asking until they have the Holy Spirit. Acts 8 records a group of unsaved, baptised believers, and the tale of a man so impressed when he saw what happens when believers recieve the Spirit that he offered money to be able to do the same thing.

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The fruit is the only way others will notice a difference.

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So you agree with me here ? Good, because I just said that.

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As we live according to the principles Christ taught the fruit will be manifest in our life. We (believers) know we have the Spirit in us the same way we know we are saved by the blood of Christ - faith.

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So how did they know they DIDN'T have the Spirit in Acts 8 ? Lack of faith ? How then were they healed ?

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(Note: the reason Peter and John went to Samaria to pray for the believers was that they would have the faith to receive the Spirit. It certainly wasn't because they were "partially saved".

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Exactly - they knew they did not have the Spirit ( how do you propose they knew ? ), and so therefore were not saved at ALL.

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The outpouring of the Spirit is a promise - a gift from God - to the believer. It is evident in a believer by the gifts of the Spirit (tongues, healing, etc). Futhermore, the gifts of the Spirit are enacted in the believer at the will of the Spirit and God, not by us.

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Tongues is the only manifestation of the Spirit, given to all Christians. From that point we can all use the other gifts, such as praying for healing. Yes, this is indeed the will of God. The Bible talks about us being fully equipped, coming behind in no gift, and God not giving the Spirit 'by measure'.

I'm not sure why you quoted two verses in Acts ???

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I am not seeking to develop bitterness in your heart, MM.

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I didn't think otherwise, actually. Your post constitutes a reasonable discussion of the issues.

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I am honestly scared for your soul.

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Goodness me, why ?

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I also am not "taking sides" on this issue; my love for you is as that of a brother and I pray that you recognize this as such. I want your faith to be true in Christ so that you can experience the freedom of His Truth.

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And I want the same for you. Therefore we should be able to examine the Bible to come to the bottom of this question. Can I just ask, have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed ?

[This message has been edited by Nfektious (edited November 26, 2002).]

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That is a good question but is not one I can answer. Scripture doesn't tell us how Peter and John knew, just that the Spirit had not yet come upon any of them (Acts 8:16).

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It's interested that Luke assumes you know. It's also interesting that no matter HOW they knew, it's obvious that being baptised, believing in Jesus and even seeing miracles does not mean you have the Spirit. So how did Jesus expect us to know when He told us to ask until we recieve ?

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Perhaps they didn't see the tongues of fire on their heads like on the day of Pentecost? Just a thought, and not meant in sarcasm.

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I believe the tongues SPREAD like fire, not that these men staying in an encosed room while fire danced on their heads.

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The Scripture simply doesn't tell us how they knew which tells me how they knew wasn't as important as the fact that they prayed for them.

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Or that every Christian should know the answer to the question.

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These events were early in the Holy Spirit's ministry and it is possible that the Samaritans didn't hear about the Holy Spirit through Philip as it indicates in that passage that they were simply baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

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Phillip knew about the Spirit, why do you propose he did not tell them ?

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1. Where do you find that the gift of tongues is the "only manifestation of the Spirit, given to all Christians"?

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1 Cor 12 says there are many gifts, and in contrast to this, THE manifestaiton of the Spirit is given to us all. In Acts, that was always tongues. John 3:8 indicates it always will be tongues.

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2. "Praying for healing" is not a gift of the Spirit. Healing itself is. Anyone can pray for healing. Anyone can pray for that matter.

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I was differentiating the fact that being healed is the gift, some people think being able to heal people is the gift of healing.

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3. "...God not giving the Spirit 'by measure'." HUH??? I don't understand this at all. Can you explain?

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It's a quote from the KJV, it means that God does not give you some of the Spirit, He gives you ALL of the Spirit.

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I quoted two verses in Acts because of the association with Acts and the Holy Spirit. I thought that would make sense to you seeing as how Pentecost is believed to be beginning of the Holy Spirit's ministry in Scripture.

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That's right - Acts 2 is the start of the church and NT salvation.

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Aside from that, the Holy Spirit is a gift of God just like Salvation, Mercy, Grace, etc. I thought you might see how those two verses tie into the issue. I guess I assumed too much. No worries then

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I just missed where you were trying to go, that's all.

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I am honestly scared for your soul because the more I learn from you through your own words I see a system of beliefs that may be founded on solid truth but seems to be so only in part. What scares me the most is your perception of Salvation, which in turn reflects on your perception of repentance, forgiveness, mercy, grace and love - not to mention the other elements of Christianity built around the core fundamental concept of Salvation. I see notions that seem to be added regulations on the whole Salvation experience. That is what makes me fear for your soul. If you can't see the repercussions of a little bit of falsehood mixed with the fundamental truth as a basis for a system of belief in God then I am at a loss for words and can only pray for you, as my words will not persuade you in the least if they do not fit your concept of truth.

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I don't see how it's a falsehood to believe that Jesus died for my sins, He rose again, and sent His Spirit as He promised. He also promised that the Spirit would be manifested in a particular way, through a specific gift which indicates the recieving of the Spirit and the ability to use all the other gifts, and the fruits. That's what the Bible says.

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Yes. I am a 100% Bible-believing, repentant, blood-of-Christ covered, baptized in the name of Jesus, Spirit-filled Christian. That doesn't mean that I know everything I should and have done everything I should as a Christian; if so, I would have already been called up to Heaven as there would be no point for me being here anymore. I'm learning more about Him and His Will every moment of every day and I enjoy putting that into practice and growing in Him.

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That's great. In that case, I'd encourage you to pray in the Spirit often ( which is tongues, and which builds you in the faith and keeps you in the love of God ), and to tell others also about your experience of the love and power of God.

God Bless,
Matt

but matt

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Yes. I am a 100% Bible-believing, repentant, blood-of-Christ covered, baptized in the name of Jesus, Spirit-filled Christian. That doesn't mean that I know everything I should and have done everything I should as a Christian; if so, I would have already been called up to Heaven as there would be no point for me being here anymore. I'm learning more about Him and His Will every moment of every day and I enjoy putting that into practice and growing in Him.

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your purpose on earth is not just for your to know all there is to know about God and do all.. God has plans and purposes for your life, and God moving in our lives, affects others, so lets say you got to that perfect state, its not time to go back to heaven, but actually would be tiem to be more of a light, as you would be a very bright light in the darkness, you'll be reflecting Christ, and pointing towards Him, Lifting Him up, and in doing so drawing men towards Him.

Be Blessed my friend..

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Since this topic has been drawn out for some time and the attitudes might become distasteful for others to bear with, not to mention the reflection of those attitudes on the name of Christ, i think it is better to end this conversation peacefully. I pray that all believers here can meet each other at the crossroads of opinion and truth in the spirit of love and understanding in order to eliminate discord in the body of believers.
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. (Pr 15:1)
In matters of clear opinion it is better to not to speak in anger but to rebuke in love. If a matter requires rebuke, please point out your attitude and intent and provide the Scripture to weigh your argument against (as opposed to providing Scripture to prove your argument).
I want to publicly apologize for initiating an attitude of anger and for affecting anyone else's faith in that manner. I entered into the discussion with MeanMan out of concern and doubt of his beliefs and although I still have issues with some of the things he has stated I will not continue the discussion beyond the point I have. I think MM and I have come to a place of peacable disagreement and I'd rather maintain that level of peace than shatter it over issues that do not uplift the message of Christ.

God bless all of you who were involved in this discussion, regardless of faith or beliefs.

Matt