Old Testament, Exodus 20,1-17.

can you comply with the ten commandments? if not, why not?

law 4. Six days you shall labour and do all your work, but the seventh is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter.

Well, every Sunday my son (aged 17) works at CULLENS 5pm - 11pm, he goes to SIXTH form MON - FRI and has SAT off, so I've had it on no. 4 straight off, not only that, I work SHIFT work, for instance I just worked TUES - TUES (8 days straight through) so what does this mean?

law 2. is another interesting one, of course I haven't made any graven images but in modern living it is said that we "worship" our cars, our TVs

law 3. oh dear, don't look at blitzcoders too close, better move on

laws 1 and 5, and all others, I think I comply with them ok, what about you?

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from your old mate
c h i e f y
global chiefy to yer old seadog seafarin' mateys

The good news is that nobody is 100% perfect on these. You're gonna goof them...actually, if it was possible to be 100% perfect on these, why would you need Jesus?

The idea isn't to work your butt off to be so perfect that you work your way into heaven. The idea is that you realize you're not good enough and therefore you need Jesus in order to make it. It's a humbling thing.

Some people feel that the commandments are "too difficult, too harsh, too demanding...they're impossible!" Is it too harsh to not steal? To not lie, cheat on your spouse, kill, etc.? These aren't harsh, these are just. The problem is that people feel that they are "tied down" by these rules, when the reality is that they are "tied down" by their own invented rules.

For example, if a person lies that person is now caught in a web of deceit. One lie leads inevitably to another lie (to cover up the first one), and so on. Now, is it more of a prison to be caught in a web of deceit or to just not lie? You can take most any commandment and apply this thought process to find that it *is* a prison to go against these basic precepts.

So, then, we're still going to goof up, right? So does that mean that if we accept Jesus we can goof up all we want? No. It means that we're going to be convicted to NOT goof up. But realizing that we will goof up, we will also repent those mistakes and pray for help on avoiding making them again. Jesus stands before us at the time of judgment, justifying us before the Father. He wipes our slate clean. But when we're here, if we lie (cheat, steal, etc.) we still deal with the consequences of our lies here. You still need to go to your brother and say "hey, I lied..." and ask for forgiveness, or you're going to continue being stuck in that web. Furthermore, don't go to God asking for forgiveness if you know you're going to continue in your web of deceipt. Go to your brother FIRST and straighten things up with him...get his forgiveness...and then go to God for forgiveness.

As for the Sabbath: This is a tough subject. "Six days shalt thou labor and do all they work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. On that day, thou shalt not do any work..." There are tons of arguments over what day this really is. Is it Saturday or Sunday? Does it really matter on the actual day or is it literally 6-days ya work, 1 day ya don't? I've frankly not heard a strong enough case either way, so I'm still on the fence on this issue.

And what do you *do* on the Sabbath anyway? Well, if you subscribe to the LAW (not the commandments), then you have a bunch of rules and regulations. If you have accepted Christ's sacrifice, then the commandment's literal "don't work" is all you gotta worry about.

I gotta run...this is a great topic!

-Krylar

P.S. you have to use the lower-case "p" in

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Christians who follow the Sabbath are doing so because they want to honor God, but Christians who believe it is fine to work every day also want to honor God.

Also, Jesus actually broke the Sabbath many times (See Matt 12:1-14, Luke 13:10-17, Luke 14:1-6, and some others). They key is to follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Jesus followed the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law, as the pharisees did. It was more important for Jesus to heal those people than to follow the Sabbath.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

Love in Christ
Gift

Genesis 2:2 (NIV): 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

...then after the Jews were freed (Moses vs. Pharoah) and they kept on doing all the wrong things. God gave the commandments, which re-iterated the Sabbath in commandment #4:

Exodus 20:8 (NIV): 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Note that vs. 11 is a recount of Genesis 2:2.

Then the LAW describes all of the specifics of what to do on that day. The commandment says "don't work". The law gets into a bunch of facets.

Then Jesus, who is the Lord of the Sabbath, breaks the LAW of the Sabbath by "working". He, of course, defends this by bringing in the point of:

Mark 2:23(NIV): 23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?" 25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." 27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

...note that although Jesus is getting food and such on the Sabbath, he still acknowledges the Sabbath and even sets himself as the Lord of the Sabbath. He in no way nukes the Sabbath day.

Then we have Paul talking about how we should not disregard the Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:1(NIV): 1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' " 4And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

This text is interesting for a couple of reasons:

1) Vs. 6 points that the Sabbath *may* have been changed from a literal 7th day to a day called "Today". However, it's not specific enough to make that point...at least not to me.

2) Vs. 9-11 again points back to Genesis 2:2, tells us the day still exists, and that we should make every effort to keep it. It also further drives home the point by stating that by not keeping it we can lead our brothers to fall.

...so where does this leave us? Well, my opinion is that the full LAW was nailed to the cross...but the commandments still stand. So if we go around telling people what they have to do on the Sabbath, we're subscribing to the LAW (even if it's our own law). If we don't keep the Sabbath we are breaking a commandment, thus being disobedient. This is no different than lying or stealing or from breaking any other commandment. While it's not a salvation issue, it's still a disobedience issue. Does it nuke you from getting into Heaven? No. Does it injure your relationship with the Father? I believe it does...just as much as lying, stealing, etc.

Well, that's my $.02

-Krylar

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The question I ask is why we nearly all Christians keep only 9 of the 10 commandments. God must have made a mistake with the fourth one hey? But then he begins it with "REMEMBER" the Sabbath day. He must have known we would forget it, or do it on another day.

But hey, if the 10 commandments don't matter anymore, then I'm not a sinner and God doesn't even have to save me...

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

I may get back to answering some of your points later on - though I'm sure you have heard it all before.

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www.revelatorgames.com

Note to everyone that I'm saying the LAW was nailed to the cross, not the Commandments Sorry if I was confusing on that point.

-Krylar

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first a few things about the scripture..

some points of what i believe

the sabbath was begun at eden. (same as clean, unclean, noah, before man ate
meat, and before moses gave the law of clean and unclean, loaded 7 of the clean animals but 2 of the others, here is a thought, abel tended sheep primarily for
sacrifices to God.)
it wasn't a law until the first covenant and as a law and commantment is heavily tied to that.
the sabbath is a blessing not a curse.

the sabbath is twofold - it shows our moral duty to worship our creator
and also man's need from rest from his labours..

sunday is not the new sabbath.. there is no scriptural basis for that, and
excuses such as its the day the Lord rose from the dead don't make it so..

sunday worship is NOT the mark of the beast..

in the old testament at least God takes his sabbath very very seriously, and many of the prophets point this out.. yet they also point out that God doesn't want our sacrifices by our hearts and even isiah 58 seems to show that its more about the attitude than the legalism of "keeping" the sabbath.

the sabbath is mentioned in prophecy yet to be fufilled..

the new testament mentions little about what we should do with the sabbath - thus the heated arguments and controversy..

now that i've briefly specified my background on beliefs on this let me continue:

the main focus of my understanding of this is based on the fact that Jesus came not to abolish the law but to fufill it.
much of the old testament law was cerimonies and ways of doing things that forshadowed jesus. put in place in a human, physical way truths that pointed towards Christ and showed spiritual truths. However man didn't have direct access to God them, and Jesus hadn't come and made the way.. the ceremonial element of the sabbath (the nitty gritties of keeping it) as well as many other such ceremonies are obsolete and cast aside, actually to hold true to them is quite idolotorous saying "we prefer the shadow that pointed to you, rather than you" (as christians sometimes we can place more importance on our pastors that point us to Christ, than on Christ also). but saying that the truths of the sabbath are still true.. We need to worship God, and we can rejoice that Christ has made a way for us to do this in a spiritual way and have a real life relationship with Him. Also if we cast the sabbath aside unthinkingly we do ourselves an injustice as the blessed rest we can get is sooo good.. God knows us and knows what we need.. we don't need to overwork ourselves and be so busy, that we don't have time to rest and we burn out, and don't even have time for Christ.. part of taking time to rest is
also saying to God "you are my provider, i don't need ot legalistically work myway up.. i just faithfully obey you, and do the amount of
work that is right , and trust you to provide, and look after me. many christians work too much just to make ends meet, and their family life and walk with God suffer, and they burn out.. when if we would accept his blessed gift of physical rest and actually trust him , how much better it would be.
an important scripture is when Jesus said - The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath mark 2:27
Jesus again and again put human needs above the sabbath.. and its a blessing.. though to keep it legalistically turns it into a burden and more often than not also into an idol.. but i do encourage you to prayerfully consider this, and get this blessing, this place of physical refreshment - yet it doesn't offer spritual refreshment.. but having time for Christ allows you to go to Christ and get physical refreshment.. remember Jesus is the fufillment of the Sabbath.. we have to enter into His rest, and rest in Him, and be Refreshed and strengthened by Him... one is physical the other is spiritual.. one can only take you for far, the other the whole way..
here is an important scripture from colossians 2 :16 and 17
So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself.
they are the shadows, Jesus is the real thing, we should rest in Him.. but we also know that our bodies need pysical rest and resting in Christ does take time, so we need time to build our relationship with Christ, just like any other relationship. Time to draw from the life from the word, to get nutrience from Christ, to be refreshed, empowered, healed.
read all of colossians 2, and see how in the end, following legalistic rules regarding jewish laws "may seem wise
because they require strong devotion,humility and servere bolidy disciple, but they have no effect when it comes to conquering a persons evil thoughts and desires"..
as kyler said the entire law was nailed to the cross, and Jesus is the fufillment.. we don't obey things that just happen to be in the law because we are trying to obey the law, but it comes out of our relationship with Christ, knowing we are forgiven of our sins, and that the works we do, we do not to earn heaven or anything else, but out of Love for the one who first loved us, and by his enabling. (read romans chapter 6 - 8 on the dellema of thte law) here are some other scriptures for thought
galatians 3:2, galatians 5:1, 2 corintians 3:14
hopefully so far i've covered just the attitude to have about the sabbath..
now the question, should christians keep it.. well when paul and others started preaching to the gentiles there was alot of controversy over what the gentiles should have to do.. some wanted to force them to be circumsized, other basically make them a jew, the council of jerusalem convened and came with this conclusion
acts 15:28-29
It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

of the jewish customs this is all the holy spirit wanted to 'burden' christians with.. the sabbath is absent.. is this because the early christians, though they may have rested on this day, (and of course paul went to synagogues to preach oon this day, mostly because that's when he'd have an audience) they understood that the sabbath was fufilled in Christ?

in romans 14 below paul says that if oe many considers a day more sacred than other (sabbath) or whatever let him, but don't condumn him for it. and visa versa.. for we all are called to pray constantly and to worship God always.. romans 14 says however to make allowances for fellow christians who are weak in the faith, and aren't so secure outside of some of their traditions and rituals.
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

we need to not to embrace legalism as some do... yet often we can let the baby out with the bathwater.. find the truths
of God's blessing of rest, and enter into it... if you are too busy , make time, (not neccisarily sabath) for you, your family and God, trust God to provide for you, and make sure that you keep God number one in your life, make sure the main thing stays the main thing. but don't turn the sabbath into an idol.. many have sadly made it an idol ,like the catholics have made marry.. they believe the sabbath is the seal of God (which is actually the holy spirit, thus they are blaspheming the holy spirit), that if you know about the sabbath you must keep it or you mightn't be saved (depending on the different teachers, but official doctrine is of that), that sunday worship is the mark of the beast, and that sabbath osbervance is the true sign on being a christian.. Yet God looks at our hearts, not by the outside things we do, anybody can legalistically keep the sabbath.. but as with all things with God, God gives us good gifts , the sun to keep us warm.. a gift of God.. has been turned into a God- an idol.. everything in nature has at some time been turned into an idol.. the creativity God has given us, has often been used to make Idols.. We can make our careers, monetry blessings, our wives even idols above God.. Worship God, enter into Christs rest, but Don't make a blessing of his an idol.
I am not against SDA.. i went to an SDA school which i am thankful for.. my SDA school in NZ however taught the plain gospel, focusing on Jesus Christ and didn't hadly even mention SDA doctines.. unlike the school of my wife in america.. however i believe that as a whole legalism has the SDA church in bondage and is exalting its name agaisnt God, and crippling many people from being able to know God in a deeper way and obey him with their hearts, its stiffling the holy spirit... But God's grace is sufficent, and He will accomplish his will, i pray for repentance and revival in that church (as well as in many , many of us get unbalanced in one thing or another, human nature is to take the things of God and humanise them, to ritualise them, the SDA church isn't alone in that).

there is much more i could say.. maybe i'll write an article and not be so vague and all over the place.. let me end on these scriptures

galatians 3:2
2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

gatians 5 :1-2
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
cicumcision is of the old covenant.. we aren't to do it under that.. the bible says that we are truely cirumsized, OUR HEARTS are cicumsized because of Christ.. focus on the new, not the old, on the Spiritual not the pysical procedure of cicumcision, on the fifillement of the law -Jesus , not on its shadow..
does that mean its wrong to get circumsized - no... people do that for various health reasons as well as some other jewish customs.. but the reasons are different.. tis not for laws sake..
the same is with the sabbath..
one day i'll do a rich study on how jesus is the fufillment of the sabbath, and all about entering into his rest.. as was promised even in the old testament.. and how its expounded on the fact that the promised land of israel wasn't entering into the spiritual rest that the sabbath foreshadows, but how we can fully enter into that rest as we abide in Christ..

with my love

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

I am an SDA (Seventh-day Adventist), and I have appreciated all the comments made in this post.

I apologize on behalf of my church members if any of you got the impression that SDA's believe that we need to keep the Saturday Sabbath to earn our way to heaven.

We don't believe that. Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Jesus' gift of eternal life is the only reason that I will get to heaven. That and nothing else.

So why do I keep the Sabbath?

1. It was instituted before the fall (in the garden of eden).
As Krylar mentioned, God made the Sabbath rest as a memorial of his Creation. Think about it from God's point of view. He made the world, but what could he do to stop people forgetting who made it. God could have made a huge monument of himself so that people would see it all the time and not forget Him..., no, rather he set aside one day a week for people to stop their daily activities and reflect and worship the God who made them and all creation (which really was Jesus).

Because the Sabbath was instituted at Creation, we cannot put it in the same classification of laws that Jesus would fulfil, as the ceremonial laws in Leviticus. Therefor, the Sabbath has not changed and is still just as important as when it was instituted.

2. The Sabbath is the Fourth Commandment. (It is one of the 10)
There are many passages in the New Testament which uphold the 10 commandments as something that is still in place. (not to earn your way to heaven, but rather a guide to a more satisfying relationship with Jesus).

Some people have put the Sabbath in the same classification as circumcision. Circumcision has been done away with in the New Testament, and they say so has the Sabbath. There are a few problems though. The Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments, and the circumcision was not. And if you read the letters in the New Testament, you see many mentions of cirumcision (ie Colossians). Many people were upset that Paul said it was not needed anymore.

Imagine if the Sabbath had been done away with. Can you imagine what the Jewish Christians would have had to say about that??? If the Sabbath had been done away with WHY IS THERE NO MENTION OF OBJECTIONS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT!!!! - it is because there was no question that the Sabbath was God's day for worship. - for Jews and Gentiles alike.

Karl mentioned we need to keep the Sabbath in the spirit of the law, not the letter. But this then means it is even harder to keep.
The law says that we should not commit adultery - Jesus says that if someone looks lustfully at a woman he commits adultery!!!!
The law says do not kill. Jesus says that anyone who calls his brother a "fool" is murdering his brother.
The law says keep the Sabbath Holy. Jesus says "Nah, do anything you want and choose whatever day you want. That would be fine" ???? (I think not).
Rather - "Let not the day just be a rest for you and your family, but a day where you can give others rest, by serving and helping them, and sharing the blessing of God's rest."

3. My relationship with God is enhanced.
The christian life is like a marriage.

a. All I have to do to say I am married is to have a piece of paper that
says I am.
a1. All I have to do to be a christian is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and I will be saved.

But - does that mean it is a happy marriage, or a happy relationship with Jesus.

To have a happy marriage, you need to: not lie, not steal, don't commit adultery, don't murder her (he he), and don't lust after other things.
Also, you need to put her first (after God), don't misuse her name, AND SPEND TIME WITH HER.

To have a happy relationship with God, you need to: not lie, not steal, don't commit adultery, don't murder, don't covet, keep God at number one, don't make idols, don't misuse God's name, AND SPEND TIME WITH HIM.

And since God knows when it is best to spend time with Him, I chose the time God put aside, rather than one I choose. That does not mean for the other 6 days I forget God, not at all! I need God everyday and worship and pray to him everyday. But the Sabbath is a special day where I totally concentrate on Him.

God's 10 commandments are a guide on how to have a happy relationship with Him. If you notice, the first four define your relationship with God, and the last six with other people.

So that is my two cents worth (he he), and from my own personal experience.

I don't do it to feel superior to other Christians, I do it because I believe that God knows what is best for my relationship with Him.

Revelator!

PS.
Karl, you mention that worshipping on Sunday is not the Mark of the Beast.
Then please tell me what is?

The whole issue in the book of Revelation is about worship, and Jesus being the conquerer.

Revelation 13 is a chapter about worshipping the Beast (Rev 13:8,12).

Those who have the mark, worship the Beast.
Therefore, those who don't have the mark, worship God.

How do you tell the difference between those who worship God and those who worship the Beast? Especially when Satan will come as an Angel of Light (2 Cor 11:14) and will deceive even the the elect - if it were possible. (Matt 24:24).

If I was Satan, I would to pretend to be Christ, say that "I" had changed the Sabbath to Sunday and get everyone to worship me.

OK. I know this is controversial and will stir up a lot or replies. Rather than attack my questions and comments (though I'm sure you will and I deserve it):
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK THE MARK IS.

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www.revelatorgames.com

Revelation 13
16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Am I right to presume you are still able to buy and sell ?

Why if I call on God's name on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday do you say I am worshipping God, and if I call on His holy name on Sunday I am actually worshipping satan ?

And what part of singing about the glory of God, asking for my sins to be placed upon the cross, rebuking the evil one himself and striving to do His will is worshipping satan ?

Colossians 2
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited April 20, 2002).]

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Col 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

In Verse 14, that which was nailed to the cross was not the law, but the debt we need to pay for breaking the law. As Christians, when we believe and accept Jesus' gift of Salvation, the consequences of our sins - ie death - was nailed to the cross with Jesus, for Jesus took our death and died it for us, so that we can have his life.

In Verse 16, it is not talking about "THE" Sabbath day, but "A" Sabbath Day. The context is talking about ceremonial laws, and there were many Sabbaths in the Jewish Calender year which were part of the yearly feasts and were "High" Sabbaths. These were a shadow that were fulfilled by Christ, not the weekly Sabbath.

And looking at it from a logical point of view:
1. The definition of sin is breaking God's law. 1 John 3:4.
2. Sin separates us from God. Isaiah 59:2
3. Jesus came to pay for our sins. 1 Peter 2:24
4. So we can get back together with God. 2 Cor 5:18
5. And the law still stands - Romans 7:12.
6. For the law shows that we are sinners - Romans 3:20
7. And drives us to God for forgiveness - Luke 7:36-50

Jesus had "two" choices he could do to save us.
1. Destroy the law, so that we are not sinners anymore.
2. Or die for our sins - thereby upholding the holiness of the law.

THE FACT THAT JESUS HAD TO DIE FOR US SO THAT THE LAW WOULD BE FULFILLED, DEMONSTRATES WHAT GOD THINKS OF THE LAW.

The Bible gives us absolutely no justification to say that only nine
laws are applicable to us today, and the fourth commandment is no longer
binding.

The only one who has the authority to change the 10 commandments is the one who gave them - Jesus. Jesus gave no indication of changing the law, in fact so much of the gospels is focused on "HOW" to observe the Sabbath Day - as a day that should be a blessing for humanity.

In fact, it is interesting that the change of the Sabbath to Sunday is prophecied in the Book of Daniel - Dan 7:25, where the little horn power "thinks" to change times and laws. There is only one religion that has changed the 10 commandments like that. They deleted the second command (The one where you can't worship idols), the divided the 10th command into two commands (so they still have a total of 10 commandments), and they claim to be the ones who had the authority to change the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday. It is all documented in the Catholic church - just check out the Catholic catechism.

And believe me, I am not making Daniel say what I want it to say. Many of the great reformers including Martin Luther identified the little horn and beast power as the Roman Catholic Church.

Now let me EMPHASIZE here that I love the Catholic people, and have friends among them. It is the institution that has set itself up against God.

What I find astounding is that many Christians "know" that the Sabbath is Saturday, but they choose not to worship on that day because it is not convenient, and it is going against the "grain" and their tradition.

Why not do what God wants? I am not saying that you need to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Any church can choose to change their day of worship from Sunday to Saturday. If you want to follow God and His word as closely as possible, then their is only one choice - Do it on God's day!

Anyway (he he), you can see this is something I feel strongly about.

Hopefully later I will address the question of how a church can inadvertantly be worshipping Satan, when they believe they are worshipping God.

I will just put this comment in: (look at Exodus 20:3-17)

If you take away the fourth commandment, and only look at the other 9 - then these could be the commandments of Satan himself (or anyone else)

Why?

Only the fourth commandment about the Sabbath, identifies who is the giver of these commands - the God who created the world and us. The other nine don't.

Something to think about (he he).

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

>Also, Jesus actually broke the Sabbath many times (See Matt 12:1-14, Luke 13:10-17, Luke 14:1-6, >and some others). They key is to follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Jesus >followed the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law, as the pharisees did. It was more >important for Jesus to heal those people than to follow the Sabbath.

you had a good contribution to make on this thread, don't say you don't have time or other people can deal with this better than you

your comments are equally valid and welcome, come back soon m8! honest

revelator : ident post time, you got the opposing view

The Bible gives us absolutely no justification to say that only nine
laws are applicable to us today, and the fourth commandment is no longer
binding.

who's right?

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try my bb prog on Gomez's site
it's a cool QUIZ
www.vitology.com/chiefy/quiz.zip

[This message has been edited by c h i e f y (edited April 21, 2002).]

You see, after the Jews came back from captivity of Babylon, they decided that they never wanted to break God's laws again. So they decided that they would make a whole list to interprete what it meant not to break the Sabbath. This was not biblical, it was something that they themselves made up.

So, they said you can't carry anything on the Sabbath which would be interpreted as work. One of their rules was you could not carry a hankerchief in your pocket on Sabbath, because that was carrying a burden. But if you pinned it on your shirt, then you could because then it was part of your outfit.

That is how ridiculous their little laws became, and of coarse Jesus broke them.

Jesus said in Mark 7: 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."
9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

Jesus broke their traditions, but no where can you find Jesus breaking the moral Law. And Jesus does not want us to keep the Sabbath like the Pharisees did. He wants it to be a blessing for mankind. A day of rest, (not buying and selling in order to make money), but helping others and sharing God's salvation.

Personally I love the Sabbath, because it is a day I don't have to work. I don't have to feel guilty if my boss asks me to work on Saturday. It is a non negotiable, because I am going to spend time with the Creator of the Universe on His special day. It is so beautiful, but I suppose it is something you need to experience to fully appreciate.

Anyway... Now I got to go to work, but I am looking forward to my next Sabbath.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

matthew 5:17
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Jesus is the fufillment of the sabbath..

as for the law being nailed on the cross, it is true, and not just that scripture.. but its a major themes of romans and other pauline books..
after my original post (before any replies) i was going to write about how the whole torah is fufilledand the whole law (including the ten commandments) is nailed to the cross.. but i hadn't the time.. i may do soon since you brought it up also..

God Bless,
and my views of SDA aren't just from what i've heard and read on the internet or from a couple of SDA i know.. i have some very close friends who are SDA pastors and also areconvicted on the unbalances in SDA and just preach the gospel, the gospel and nothing but the gospel..
I love the SDA church, as does God (he does with an even more passion).. one of my passions in life is church (and individual ) spiritual health, we all get a little unbalanced on this or that, just like in our bodies we get a cold, the flu, etc... but when there is a cancer it needs to be dealt with clearly and dicisively lest death and destruction follow..
but i don't want this to end up into an adventist bashing session, nor any need for defensiveness..

Make the Will of the Lord Jesus Christ be accomplished in its entirity.. may the Holy SPirit cinvict us all of sin, and lead us into righteousness..
by faith,

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

Note particularly verse 5 about not looking down on someone if they regard/don't regard one day as more special than another.

I need this discussion, because I need to understand how you understand the gospel.

Because.

If the law was nailed to the cross:

Does that mean it exists no more?

If it exists no more, then sin does not exist anymore. For if there is no law, then there is no sin, then I don't need Jesus.

You are right in saying that the 10 commandments are a summary of the other laws. But the Bible does set it apart from the other laws.
a) It was the only law written in stone by God.
b) It was the only laws directly spoken by God to the people
c) It was placed in the Ark of the Covenant, where the other laws weren't.

But the New Testament says the Commandments still stand.

As it says in James:
James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.
9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Verse 11 refers to 2 of the 10 commandments, and James says if you break them you sin, therefore the law still stands.

Karl, you mention that Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Please show me from the Bible the laws Jesus broke?

And what does it mean to you that Jesus fulfilled the law? Does that mean Jesus destroyed it? That sounds strange to me.

Did Jesus fulfil the law "Thou shalt not commit adultery", so that now we can sleep with anyone other than our wife (or husband).
That is what you are saying with "Remember to keep the Sabbath day Holy", because since Jesus has fulfilled it, we can keep any day holy.

You cannot just single out one command, and not the others. That is being inconsistent.

You mention that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath. There is no scripture that specifically says that. At creation, there were two institutions set up: Marriage, and the Sabbath. If Jesus fulfilled all laws, does that mean he fulfilled Marriage as well?

Marriage is a law, just as the Sabbath is. That Sabbath is a sign of our relationship with God. Marriage is a sign of our relationship with our spouse. So if the Sabbath does not exist anymore, then maybe marriage doesn't either.... (I'm just trying to show you that you must be consistent. You cannot single out the Sabbath from the other 9 commands. What you say about one, is applicable to the others.)

Remember, I am not arguing that we need to keep the law to earn our way to heaven.

But

God gave us the law to protect and enhance our relationship with God and humanity, and part of the law is the fourth command - the Sabbath.

I hope you get time Karl to respond. (or anyone else)

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

Thanks for your input.

You quote from Romans: 14:6, He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Here it does not mention the Sabbath, but just a "day". We must remember that many Jews kept the special days of the feasts in the Old Testament that were fulfilled by Christ. This is what Paul was referring to.

In the book of Acts we see Paul keeping the Sabbath. And even where there was no synagogue, he kept the Sabbath (Acts 16:13).

For one of the 10 Commandments to have been changed, there would have needed to be a specific text in the New Testament for that to happen. There is no such text because it was not changed during the New Testament days. It only happened later in the first and second century when the Christians did not want to identify with the Jews - who were being persecuted. They justified it by saying they are now worshiping on the day of the Resurrection.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

for that scripture you asked it is john 5:18..

in the context he had just healed a man and told him to pick up and carry his mat.. (which is forbidden in the law, not just a pharisee tradition.)
and the disciple John who wrote this gospel said in a factual statement (not a quoting others opinions, but explicitly declared)

"For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

it wasn't in the context of the jews accusing him or thinking ... but something that the writer of john opening acknowledged and declared to be a fact, that Jesus was indeed breaking the Sabbath and calling God his own Father making himself equal with God - which He is..

a closer study of the greek grammatical tense will also back this up.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain.
24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of
Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he
also gave some to his companions."
27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Note especially Jesus' justification in verse 26 -- although what David did was against the Law, this passage seems to indicate it wasn't sinful. As is mentioned in Romans 3:20

20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

The purpose of the law then, is to convict people of their sin. If you could follow the law, you would be judged righteous (Romans 2:13); however it is impossible to follow the Law, so we are convicted of our sin (Romans 3:20).

This leads us to Christ, who, by living a life free of sin and dying on the cross, has taken our sins upon himself, so we might be judged righteous before God. (Romans 3:21-31)

My interpretation then (and I would try to back it up if I had more time), is that the law was created to clearly show us we were sinners. Once we have accepted Christ, the Law has already accomplished its function, leading us to faith in Christ. However, having become like slaves to Christ, we must not follow our sinful nature, but follow the example of Christ's righteousness, through the power of the Holy Spirit. (more to follow, maybe)

The principle thing that needs to be understood about the sabbath is that it was 'made for man, and not man for the sabbath'. The Sabbath was a gift to us, not a burden. It was about taking a rest and looking towards God instead of earthly things, it was not meant to be about legalism. The 10 commandments overall are just a part of the law, and the Bible says that if you want to keep one part you must keep it all. Anyone who does not have someone who can claim by pure blood to be a priest in the OT sense sacrificing animals on their behalf should give up on the 10 commandments.

Instead we must recognise that the law was a shadow of things to come, Jesus living a perfect life fulfilled the Law and made a way for us to enter into salvation which the Law never could, not because it was corrupt, but because we are. The very nature of a list of commandments leads to legalism and thinking of salvation as something that is achieved via a checklist. The Sabbath specifically was a type or picture of salvation, in the NT people recieve the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and enter into Gods rest on a present continuous basis. The new fulfills the old, and improves on it.

The question of Jesus fulfilling the law meaning we don't have to obey it misses the point entirely - when we recieve the Holy Spirit, the law is no longer an external thing, but it is written on our hearts. We do what is right because we want to serve God, not because He has given us a list to check off, then we can go do our own thing. Again, the NT way is better.

You say that John 5:18 says that Jesus broke the Sabbath. It does say that, but it is from the Pharisee's point of view.

Why?

Because if Jesus really broke the Sabbath, one of God's 10 commandments, then Jesus has failed as our Saviour.

Jesus needed to keep the law 100% and not sin to be our Saviour. Hebrews 4:15 says: "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin."

The definition of sin is breaking the Commandments (1 John 3:4). So Jesus could not have broken the Sabbath.

You also say that "carrying a mat" on the Sabbath is breaking the law. Please show me the text in the old Testament that says that. Rather it was one of the laws that the Pharisees made up.

I totally agree with your next post when you say that the law makes us aware of sin and our need for a Saviour. For you can't be made righteous by the law.

But I disagree with your conclusion.

When you accept Jesus as your Saviour, the law is not irrelevant anymore. It still is there to protect our relationship with Christ. Romans 6:15 says "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!"

Now you are a Christian you can lie whenever you want? By no means! Why? Because Jesus morals are based on the 10 commandments. In fact Jesus says in John 14:15 - "If ye love me, keep my commandments." The closer you get to Jesus, the less you want to do what is wrong (ie, break the commandments).

Jesus asks us to keep the Commandments, and never says that the Sabbath does no longer need to be kept. If you want to follow Jesus, the conclusion is obvious.

And nice to hear from you again MeanMan.

I have never seen the 10 Commandments as a checklist to fulfill. I have never obeyed the commands to earn my way into Salvation. In fact, I don't even "try" to keep the commandments, because the love I have for Jesus motivates me to keep them.

Because I love my wife, I don't need to continually think - "I must not lie to her, I must not commit adultery etc". Because I love her, I want to spend special time with her, just as I love Jesus and want to spend the special time of the Sabbath with Him. Because I love her, I want to fulfill these laws that enhance our relationship.

So it is with the 10 commandments.

What I find fascinating is that with the other 9 Commandments people have no problem with. But when it comes to the fourth - they shout out 'Legalism'.

When you as a Christian decide not to lie anymore - are you a legalist?
When you as a Christian decide not to commit adultery - are you a legalist?
But when I want to keep the Sabbath as God proscribed it - then am I a legalist!!!???

Every relationship has a laws to base it on to work.
Therefore our relationship with God has laws to make it work.

I ask you, what are the rules of your relationship with God?
You say that the law is internalised in our hearts as Christians. Which law is that?

And please don't say love. Love is a very broad term that must be defined. ie. I love God so much that I will make an idol so I can worship Him in a more personal way. Christians disagree with this because the second command says not to make idols.

In fact, when Jesus is asked which is the greatest law, In Matthew 22 He says: 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

The first four commands define how we love God (including on what special day to worship God) The last 6 commandments define how we love our neighbor.

So in conclusion, the basis of our relationship with Jesus is the 10 commandments, and we have no proof in scripture to suggest that the Sabbath has been modified to another day, or does not exist for Christians anymore, or is now applicable everyday.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

If it is legalistic to insist that the Sabbath is Saturday, then Jesus is a legalist, all the apostles are legalists.

It isn't legalistic to accept the guidelines that God has given to us. It is legalistic if you think that by keeping them you earn your way to heaven though.

I would turn your statement around and say it is presumptious and dangerous of you to determine your own day of worship without there being an direction from the Bible saying that it is fine. If you can change one law without any direction from the Bible, then what is there stopping you changing the other laws as you feel like it. Let us start making idols of God and worshipping them. Lets start lying etc... I think you can see where this can end up when humanity follows its own reasons and logic.

As for the Saturday being the same that Jesus worshipped on, you can bet on that. The Calander only changed once around the 15 hundreds, when the year was shortened by about 15 days (I am going by memory here). But the sequence of days did not change.

Likewise, the Jews can testify that they have strictly marked each Sabbath through the millenia.

And Easter shows which is the Sabbath day. Look at Scripture, and you will see that Good Friday is when Jesus was nailed to the cross. Everyone rested on Sabbath while Jesus was in the tomb, and it is on Easter Sunday that Jesus rose from the dead.

There is absolutely no doubt that the sequence of days have changed.

Why not worship on the Saturday? Should inconvenience stop us from following God to the fullest? If you want your relationship with Jesus to go to the max, then follow the Bible.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

and that sunday doesn't replace sabbath

but for most christians sunday isn't sacred to them, its just a day... every day is a day of worship , sunday just happens to be of the days they happen to meet togeather..

i go to church on a sunday, but also on a tuesday,.... others i know who work on sunday go to church on a wednesday...
there are friday night meetings which would thus also be sabbath..

its not a matter of your day versus our day..
its more a matter of a life of worship compared to ritualised worship..
a matter of law vs grace..

anyhow be blessed, and i do bless you on this coming sabbath, as if we do delight in our Lord on the sabbath (rather than just going through the motions of making sure its kept correctly, and checking the sunset calender to make sure we start observing it on the minute of the days sundown for our specific longitude and latitude) , but delight yourself in our Lord our saviour and enter into spiritual rest in Christ as well as have a refreshing and renewing physical rest..

take care all

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

If you are convinced in you own mind that the Sabbath is a Saturday, and thus you make it your day of worship, then good for you ! (my understanding of Romans 14) But who are you to say that someone worshipping on a Sunday is worshipping satan ???

I don't drink alcohol because I think the bible says I can't (which it doesn't - but I guess that's a whole other argument ) but because its my small dedication to God ! It makes me happy to do such for the Lord ! So I understand the happiness you feel when you strive to keep God's commandments - but who are we to judge others for not keeping to the laws we make for ourselves - I hope I never make anyone feel guilty for drinking
because of my abstention.

The Mosaic Law was God's covenant with the Israelites, not with you - if you are going to adopt it as your own then you had better start sacrificing some animals. God didn't give the Israelites laws like not eating pork just to test them, but for their own good - eating pork in the desert is a good way to get sick.

May I ask what your understanding of this passage is ?

1 Corinthians 10

25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." 27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake -- 29 the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounce because of something I thank God for? 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

(btw its taken me sooo many edits to get that scripture looking right - this UBB stuff is weird)

Notice Paul is condoning eating ALL meats and food sacrificed to idols

May God's praises be sung every day of the year for eternity !! God Bless you

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited April 29, 2002).]

Regarding your quote of 1 Corinthians 10, I agree with you that you can eat anything. (Though your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, so it is important to us to feed it with good food and not destroy it with poison).

Not eating pork because it is unclean is something that the Adventist church needs to re-think, because like you - I have discovered ample evidence in the new testament to show that those ceremonial laws have been done away with.

By the way, I don't drink alcohol either because I believe the principle in scripture is not to get drunk and out of control. But if my drinking makes other people guilty - great! The Holy Spirit uses guilt in a person to help them change. A person who never has guilt is beyond the help of the Holy Spirit.

I'll get back to you on the other points that your post brings up. - got to go to work now.

God Bless
Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

guilt is but a tool of the devil to keep you from God's grace.

b.t.w what do you think of the investigative judgement, and EGW?

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

I think you would be hard pressed to define a major difference between the "guilt" we feel and the "conviction" that the Holy Spirit gives us.

Guilt is what we feel when we have done something wrong. Granted - there are such things as false guilt, but without guilt the Holy Spirit cannot convict us to change.

Well, that's my definition anyway.

By the way, I am enjoying this discussion, because it is challenging me on some issues I do need to think more about.

As far as Ellen White goes. I believe she was inspired by God. But, the Bible is the "greater light". If she says something that cannot be backed by the Bible, then I take it with "a grain of salt". In other words, what she writes I believe will draw you closer to God and I don't believe she generally writes anything that contradicts the Bible.

As for my foundational beliefs, they are based on the Bible, not Ellen White.

Adventists in the past (and still sometimes at the moment) have made a mistake of making her a infallible prophet. She never even said she was a prophet herself, and she always told people to go to the Bible, because it is more important than the Bible.

Hope this makes sensse

As for the investigative judgement, I'll comment a bit later on. Have to drop my wife off to work.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

The two questions people have concerning the investigative judgement is:

1. Is there an investigative judgement
2. Did it start in 1844.

I won't go into the Bible texts because I only have a few minutes. But logically I must say there has to be some form of investigative judgement before the second coming of Christ.

Why?

Note: The logic below assumes that when a person dies, he does not go straight to heaven or hell, but waits in the earth until the second coming of Christ. (I could show you all of this in a separate study)

1. When sin came to the universe it disrupted eternity.
2. God wants to do everything so it will never happen again.
3. For it never to happen again, every living being must be convinced that it is evil, and the consequences of sin is death, suffering etc.
4. So that means all the heavenly beings and other living beings on other planets must be convinced that God is doing the right thing with the Sin problem.
5. So God must allow all the heavenly beings to be convinced He is making the right decisions regarding us humans. Whether or not we will get eternal life or die the second death.
6. This must happen before Jesus comes again to the earth, because what would happen if Hitler came to heaven, and one of the heavenly angels disagreed with God that he should be there. So it must all be resolved before the second coming where all the angels and heavenly beings have access to all the books.
7. And this is called the investigative judgement.

Humans will get a chance to survey all of God's decisions during the Millenium.

Regarding the starting date of 1844, to me the best explanation for Daniel 8:14 "Sanctuary shall be cleansed" is the investigative judgement. This conclusion is made by looking at what happened on the day of atonement in the earthly sanctuary described in Leviticus.

But I believe the date 1844 stands as the end of the 2300 day prophecy from Dan 8:14. The reason is that in Daniel 9 we have the prophecy of Christ coming to this earth. The 70 week prophecy (490 years) starts in 457 BC and concludes in AD 27 when Jesus was annointed with the Holy Spirit at His baptism. In Daniel 9, this prophecy is "cut off" from the 2300 year prophecy. In other words, the 2300 day prophecy also starts in 457 BC and concludes in 1844 AD.

That's just a brief answer for you. I would like to know your views.

Must go to work.
Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

to me the Ivestigative judgement is just a cover up for the disspointment of 1844 when Jesus didn't come back.. its source is human pride, not wanting to be humbled and repent, but rather explain it away.. i believe the doctine is quite cultic, encourages legalism to the max..
and denies the fact that jesus's work is finished and he has ascended and sitting on the throne..

Jesus doesn't need to go and cleanse the sancuriry..

it all ended on calvary

when he cried out "it is finished/accomplished"

there are aspects of the great contrivesy, and investigative judgement that are correct, and very insightful, but there is some very dangerous stuff in there, that belittles the redemption of the cross..

b.t.w i've read most of EGW and i believe that like many she had a call of God on her life, and walked in it in part, however i believe she walked in her own flesh also and there is much that goes against the bible..
i would call her a false prophet - but only after much study...
also much of the good stuff she wrote is 80% plagerised, often word for word (much of the great contrivesy is).

also the fact that the adventist statement of beliefs include believing in the "spirit of prophesy" and linking that reference in the bible of the spirit of prophesy to her books..
so dangerous..
so very dangerous..

God revealed some truths to the early adventists, but as with all religion , man took it into his own hands and adapted it and used it for his own purpose and now the manmade religion stiffles the working on the holy spirit in the church and binds people up keeping them away from the essense of the gospel.. GOd has broken through to people like Mr Ford, and GOd still works in the church, for there are many who sincerely love and follow God, we all have our dotrinal and cultural blindspots because of our backgrounds, both you and me and everybody else..

I believe you are a christian, but i believe that as a whole (including the General Conference and offical writings of the SDA to be severly unhealthy, ), maybe GOd can use you to start a revival in SDA?

i love the SDA church, have many friends there, including pastors...

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

With the same material we come to two different conclusions.

I wonder what you will do when the USA legislates Sunday as a day of worship? You probably think it will never happen, but when it does, are you going to throw the baby out with the bathwater? Please keep an open mind...

God Bless

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

i am only against the ritualised cemeremonial method of keeping the sabbath which is legalistic, and the elevation of the sabbath to the 'seal of God' which is replacing the Holy Spirit ,who is God, with the sabbath -a created thing - which is dangerous idolotory..

i cherish the sabbath, but in my conscience i can't be part of SDA, for that would be compromising the gospel as i know it and have accepted it.. i don't work on sabbath, and enjoy the rest, and like to study and spend time with my wife... but i won't keep sundown timecalenders, and make sure that i don't buy and sell... if i want to spend my sabbath horse riding in the woods in the beauty of God's creation enjoying the company of my wife, and giving thanks to God for his amazing creativity and his sustinance of the universe i'll do it , even though i'll have to pay out money...

i think that the underlying truths of hte sabbath and God's rest, is a good aspect of SDA, its only the making the sabbath an idol that i detest, just like making ministers as idols in other denominations, and making tounges an idol... us humans are so good at taking the good things of God and worshipping them.. its more subtle these days but the same.. i mean the idols of old were worshiping gold which God made, images of animals God created and gave us... temple prostitutes, God gave us sex, yet we pervert it and worship it wrong.. SDA as a whole has a bent towards idolising the sabbath.. and i would think that a group of people expert in the sabbath would also be expert in knowing how Christ fufilled it and how to rest in Christ and enter into God's rest.. yet i never see that in adventist doctrine sadly.

I believe you can turn your back on dangerous and wrongful adventist doctrines without giving up the gift of the sabbath..

i don't know how much you've studied about the plagerism of Ellen G WHite, or the false things she had said.. i remember she prophesied (as in her day other churches were prophesying and preaching that the jews would return to israel and a jewish nation would be reestablished.. she blatently said that that would not happen... many such things that history has proven otherwise...

though i do believe that God had a call over her life and moved through her at occassions..

b.t.w what if sunday law never happens? for me i can see it as a possible end times scenario but i know that as a SDA doctrine its nice and neatly packaged to go into the nice little box of SDA doctrine understanding.. everything in SDA makes sense.. everything in a rational box - but God is bigger than that box.. the sunday law thing may or may not become mainstream, but it conveniently ties in with other adventist doctrines if you know what i mean.. what i mean is SDA theologan and literature don't take evidence without a bias.. But i believe that many many many many christians in other denominations know God and have the HOly Spirit living in them and are born again christians... and if in the future sabbath/sunday becomes an issue of such magnitute.. i trust God that his Holy Spirit will lead them into truth, but i don't think that the end times remnant will come out of SDA , (well not unless there is much repentance and revival and mindset changes in SDA), nor will these other christians will join SDA in such a case.. if such a case happened.. the balanced spirit filled christians would likely just embrace the sabbath if you know what i mean...

i hope i don't sound too much like SDA bashing..

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

It is good to see you have an open mind to the future.

I suggest you re look into the aspect of Ellen White and plagerism.

She wrote in the nineteenth century and then we impose 21st century rules on her. In her time, everyone wrote as she wrote - borrowing from other authors without giving them credit.

This sounds wrong and strange to us, but this was normal practice in the nineteenth century.

Also, saying 80% of her writing is plagerised is one big grand statement.
I think you have read too many anti-White books where the authors embelish their results. I suggest you look at the results from people who are authorities on the subject of plagerism to see what the real story is.

Here is a conclusion from someone who is not a Christian, but an expert in the field of Plagerism:

[begin quote]
Because she included such selections from other authors in her writings, critics have charged Ellen White with plagiarism. But the mere use of another's language does not constitute literary theft, as noted by Attorney Vincent L. Ramik, a specialist in patent, trademark, and copyright cases. After researching about 1,000 copyright cases in American legal history, Ramik issued a 27-page legal opinion (http://www.egwestate.andrews.edu/issues/ramik.html) in which he concluded "Ellen White was not a plagiarist, and her works did not constitute copyright infringement/piracy." Ramik points out several factors that critics of Ellen White's writings have failed to take into account when accusing her of literary theft or deceit. 1) Her selections "stayed well within the legal boundaries of 'fair use.'" 2) "Ellen White used the writings of others; but in the way she used them, she made them uniquely her own"--adapting the selections into her own literary framework. 3) Ellen White urged her readers to get copies of some of the very books she made use of--demonstrating that she did not attempt to conceal the fact of her use of literary sources, and that she had no intention to defraud or supersede the works of any other author.
[End Quote]

And of coarse the "Great Controversy" relies on a lot of other sources, because for the most part of the book, it is about Christian history.

The question you need to ask is, how did she know only to copy the truth.

Look at her book on health. At a time when smoking was good for you, as well as alcohol, blood letting etc. She wrote a book through the guidance of the Holy Spirit which has confounded experts today. Yes, she copied some material from other "health" books of her day. But how did she know what was right or wrong??

The Sabbath is not an idol to us. Granted, we need more of the Spirit in our worship services, but the Sabbath tells me the best way to worship God.

Anyway, the most important thing is that we know Christ, and that He knows us. As for prophecy, the future will see who had the correct interpretation.

God Bless you Karl.

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

but the things that she plagerised were sometimes things she claimed to be divinely inspired and to actually be from a vision..

as for the Sabbath Being an idol..

i know that maybe to you and some other adventists it is not..
but i do believe for a large amount that it is.

but anyway it is Sabbath, and have a happy Sabbath and a Blessed one, and may you rest fully in this day, and bathe in Christ, abide in HIm and may His glory be made manifest through you and me in greater measure..
more of Him, Less of US..

Amen..

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz