I know I come across as rude sometimes, and I apologise for that. The simple fact is that the interpetations being presented seem to me to defy all rules of logical thought, in other words if the book in question was not a religious work, I doubt there would be any controversy over the meaning of a statement like 'you can all prophesy'. However, being incredulous is no excuse for being rude, intended or not. I once thought myself saved apart from the Holy Spirit experience as well.

John 6:28-29 "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent"(those who believe are saved).

1 Cor 12:27-29 "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you ia a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those haveing gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts." The answer would be no not all are apostles, not all are prophets, not all are teachers, not all work miracles, not all have gifts of healing, not all speak in tongues, and not all interpret. The gift of toungs is to edify yourself not to hurt the faith of those who don't have that gift. You should eagerly desire the gift of prophecy that you might edify the assembily.
Love in Christ
Gift

PS. The scripture you mension. 1 Cor 14:31.
31In this way, all who prophesy will have a turn to speak, one after the other, so that everyone will learn and be encouraged. NLT

31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
NIV

This seems to be directed to those who are appointed (by GOD) to be prophets and not the entire assembily, not every believer.

[This message has been edited by Gift (edited February 26, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Gift (edited February 26, 2002).]

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As it happens, like all Christians, I can prophecy. 1 Cor 12 is talking about use of gifts when the body comes together, but the list of gifts given includes faith, wisdom and knowledge. In fact for each of the nine gifts, tongues included, I can point to another NT scripture that says we all have it. For example, James tells us if we feel we lack wisdom we can ask God and He will give liberally.

Now you are the company of SuperSoftware Ltd, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the company, the boss has appointed first of all programmers, second database admins, third sales reps, then workers of Apple Macs, also those having gifts of network maintenance, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those programming in COBOL. Are all programmers? Are all database admins? Are all sales reps? Do all work Apple Macs? Do all have gifts of network maintenance? Do all program in COBOL? Do all interpret COBOL? But eagerly desire the greater jobs. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Having read the above short story would you assume that everybody in the SuperSoftware Ltd company programs in COBOL?

Now read the following...

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

every one of you can program, can administer databases, can sell things, can program in COBOL (yuck). But do things in an orderly way.

From the above addition ( in line with 1 Cor 14 ) I would presume that just like 1 Cor 12-14, some people in the company provide services to the company by programming, by database administration, by administrating, etc., but that the company would fail if everyone wanted to sell and no-one wanted to actually write code. So while people may seek promotion into other areas, each has a job that must be done for the company to work.

The difference is in the question 'do all program in COBOL' ( while at work for the company ), and 'can all the people who work here program COBOL'.

Thank you, this is an excellent analogy of the difference between what Paul says in 1 Cor 12 and how people interpret it based on their experience and assumptions. At worst, you are right and Paul changed his mind two chapters later.

quote:

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
every one of you can program, can administer databases, can sell things, can program in COBOL (yuck). But do things in an orderly way.

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Would a fairer analogy of 1 Cor 14 v26 not be...

26 What then shall we say, colleagues? When you come to work, everyone has a project, or a word of instruction, a idea, a COBOL snippet OR a interpretation of a COBOL snippet. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the company.

The original...

26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

quote:

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Would a fairer analogy of 1 Cor 14 v26 not be...

26 What then shall we say, colleagues? When you come to work, everyone has a project, or a word of instruction, a idea, a COBOL snippet OR a interpretation of a COBOL snippet. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the company.

The original...

26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church

---

1/ the OR is not in the original text.

2/ This is true if things are done in an orderly manner, even if a different person programs COBOL today to the one who does it tomorrow.

The scripture that says 'you can all prophecy one by one', is roughly equivelant to 'you can all program COBOL when a computer is available', and stands alone. The reference to doing so 'one by one' is a reference to the way things are done, it does not limit the meaning of the word 'all'.

quote:

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
1/ the OR is not in the original text.

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There are 2 ORs. So it would be fair to say then the scripture here (as is it given in the NIV) does NOT support the argument that all christians have all spiritual gifts ? IF this is critical to salvation why does God let us get it so wrong ? Wouldn't he want it to be a little clearer ?

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

1/ God did not write the NIV ( or the KJV for that matter ), it is an error to ascribe that level of perfection to any translation.

2/ There are three possible interpretations.
1/ That we each have one of these things ( accepting the or )
2/ That we can each do any of these things in one meeting, but we won't do them all ( accepting the or )
3/ That we can each do any of these things, and this statement is tempered by other statements requiring order ( rejecting the addition of the or statement ).

If the first is true, why does this list include things that we indisputably could all do, such as provide a hymn or a 'lesson' ? I dunno what version this is, it's from www.bible.org.

In any case, if you take this to the meaning you obviously ascribe to it, and the same to 1 Cor 12, how do you account for the inclusion of gifts like faith, wisdom and discernment ?

you are true that the original text doesn't have an OR, however it also doesn't have an AND.. it just has a list of things with a tense... many languages don't put in and/or but express the meaning of the list by their context.. the greek work for everyone here is hekastos which also means each..

i can say to each of my children i've given a gift - a piano, a bike , a computer (and/or in english) a nosepicker..

even with and in english the above sentence would mean a different gift to different children.. it could also imply more gifts per child or whatever.. its not exclusive and its not complete.. its a sentence which says some things obviously, may or may not say other things as well..

in the greek, linguistically speaking , it is reasonible to take the statement either way.. however neither of us (nor alot of scholars know which gramatical functions and idioms were common then, or which way the majority of first centurary greeks would have taken that statement.you know how somebody can say something correct in english grammar but because they aren't a native speaker it will mean something different to us native speakers who know the nuances of our langauges (and i find those nuances are different and caused understanding issues betweeen me and my american wife).. some body could interpret me writing "i don't want nothing to eat" (a double negative) as meaning i want something to eat.. however the idoimatic context is that i DOn'T want anything to eat... (you could say thats bad english but i've
seen alot of old literature that used double negatives , i ever saw dickens use quadruple negatives that just don't make sense in modern english. also remember the New testament greek wasn't 'literature' greek, but the colloqual street language of the masses.. like "hey bro, whats up dude "(exageration there)

so my point here is that we can't tell if its AND/OR.. prominent greek scholars believe that this grammtical pattern indicates an OR however.. in the common language idioms of the time when King James was written, i believe that translation would also be understood my the majority of native english speakers to mean that also..

however from a literal perspective , there is ambiguity and either of us could be correct..

so lets look at the context.. the context of the chapter and is pual teaching the corinthians.. one of the subcontext is him calling for them to use tounges balanced and not put an over emphasis on it..

also the context of this scripture is about many or one possible future scenarios of christians gathering togeather..so if it does indeed mean AND, it would imply that everybody would in that mean HAVE some words in tounges, at least one interpretation to it,everyone in that meeting would have a doctrine to share, and a revelation to give.

if it doesn't mean AND, then it means OR.. if it means OR its NOT an exclusive or... it would be reasonible to say that in one meeting somebody spoke in tounges, in another not, in another meeting that person gave a revelation.. however it does not say that.. that is just something that can be guessed.. because equally it could be that in some meetings a certian person doesn't speak in a tounge ever..

i believe that 1 corin 14:26 does NEITHER PROVE NOR DISPROVE that you need to speak in tounges to be saved..
however i believe it Can't be used in that anyhow the next scripture that follows is.. verse 27 and 28 says here is the NLT

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, F56 or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

the first word is IF, in japanese there is an if that also means when..

so you could say IF and it would mean it would actually happen..
however in greek this would is eite.. which in other places is translated as whether , and ever OR.. if its possible to believe that any man does not when in tounges.. also also the phrase "But if there be no interpreter" seems to imply that verse 26 meant or, because if it meant AND, there would be an interpreter, and definately because the tounge person themselve could also interpret..

these scriptures are about order, not about the fact that everybody speaks in tounges.. its not hte major nor the minor theme of this section of scripture..

as for 1 corinthians 12.. overall it is linguistically obvious and provable that he is talking about different gifts to different people..
if you wish we can go over this whole chapter in detail go over what i means TO ONE, and TO ANOTHER.. we could go over verse 4 where it says diversies (greek diairesis ) which the dictionary has this entry "in particular, a distinction arising from a different distribution to different persons" this greek word is only used in verse 4,5 and 6 out of the whole bible however its derived from the stem diaireo which means

1) to divide into parts, to part, to tear, cleave or cut asunder
2) to distribute

this word is also the one used in verse 11for Dividing..

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

the other context is scripture is in the prodigal son.. in luke 15:12

12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal

so what is this manifestation... i don't believe it is tounges, OR soley tounges.. in greek its phanerosis .. in the bible its only ever used in this grammatical form here and in 2cor4:2 in by manifestation of the truth which clearly doesn't even hint at tounges.. the root word is phaneroo with the following meanings in the dictionary
1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown,
to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
1a) make actual and visible, realised
1b) to make known by teaching
1c) to become manifest, be made known
1d) of a person
1d1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
1e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1e1) who and what one is

nowhere does it indicate that capital THE.. THE MANIFESTION of the SPIRIT is TOUNGES.. the manifestation of the spirit is anything that is the spirit showing himself, or revealing the spirit.. or making the spirit known in the linguistic sense anyway. in this context it seems, that the holy spirit manifests himself through the different gifts for the profit of all.. we have gone over the rest of this chapter before including when paul asks "do all do this? , do all do that?"
lets do it again quickly

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Is everyone an apostle? Of course not. Is everyone a prophet? No. Are all teachers? Does everyone have the power to do miracles? 30 Does everyone have the gift of healing? Of course not. Does God give all of us the ability to speak in unknown languages? Can everyone interpret unknown languages? No! 31 And in any event, you should desire the most helpful gifts.

PAS
is ussually translated as all, sometimes all things, sometimes every , etc.so its saying NOT ALL are apostles , NOT all are teachers etc.. you could almost say
"godforsake if all are apostle" but its not saying that..NOT all speak in tounges, however the translators where aware of the rhetoical devices greek.. and it is very clear that is means not all are those.. and the next scripture
ME ECHO PAS CHARISMA IAMA
PAS ME LALEO GLOSSA
ME PAS DIERMENEUO
again its ME PAS, or PAS ME (same thing)..in the first one it puts in a common word ECHO which means have.
so ME ECHO PAS CHARISMA IAMA
NOT HAVE ALL GIFTS HEALING..
ALL NOT UTTER TOUNGES
NOT ALL INTERPRET.
i've written more here today than i intended too.. but not a complete reply how i promised i will work on other scriptures if you so desire, prayerly considering and studying and relying on the holy spirit to illuminate the scriptures, as i do in my worship i do it in Spirit and Truth... relying on the truth of scripture so that the i can dicern which spirit in fact i am relying on, and also in Spirit. in ending i'll leave a comple of scripture to edify and encourage us..
hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 27, 2002).]

In my church there are some who are very wise, some who are stronger in faith than others, some who can heal, some who are fantastic singers, some who prophecize and some who speak in tongues. They are all parts of one body. Thats how I account for it.

Try some exegesis here - what is the context in which Paul is writing this or why is he writing this. Why does he give us the analogy that we are all different parts of one body ? Why does he ask the Corinthians questions like are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? do all work miracles? do all have gifts of healing? do all speak in tongues?

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

quote:

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so lets look at the context.. the context of the chapter and is pual teaching the corinthians.. one of the subcontext is him calling for them to use tounges balanced and not put an over emphasis on it..

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Absolutely - agreed. He is also careful to provide balance, so that an over-reaction to an under emphasis does not occur, which shows he felt the gift important, but it was clearly being misused and over-emphasised.

quote:

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also the context of this scripture is about many or one possible future scenarios of christians gathering togeather..so if it does indeed mean AND, it would imply that everybody would in that mean HAVE some words in tounges, at least one interpretation to it,everyone in that meeting would have a doctrine to share, and a revelation to give.

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And a song. Yes, it would mean that each of us had the ability in every meeting to offer these things.

quote:

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if it doesn't mean AND, then it means OR.. if it means OR its NOT an exclusive or... it would be reasonible to say that in one meeting somebody spoke in tounges, in another not, in another meeting that person gave a revelation.. however it does not say that.. that is just something that can be guessed.. because equally it could be that in some meetings a certian person doesn't speak in a tounge ever..

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Yes, that is right. Assuming that only some people are ever able to offer a psalm, a doctrine or a relevation, one of the three possible interpretations of this verse is that only some people could ever speak in tongues in a meeting.

quote:

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because if it meant AND, there would be an interpreter, and definately because the tounge person themselve could also interpret..

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Actually down a bit, Paul says only to speak in tongues if you are going to interpret. This was advice to maintain order in a church where people needed to be encouraged to seek the gifts of interpretation and prophecy. In encouraging them all to seek this gift, it seems likely that he expected they all could, the alternative being that he exalts one gift that only a few can have to a group of people already judging each other by what gift they have ( assuming for a moment that you believe not everyone in Corinth could speak in tongues ).

quote:

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these scriptures are about order, not about the fact that everybody speaks in tounges.. its not hte major nor the minor theme of this section of scripture..

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Correct, and you'll note I did not quote it in my detailed reply on my beliefs. However, it is the biggest passage in the Bible on the gifts of the Spirit, and tongues especially, and it, in my mind, clearly assumes that all in Corinth could speak in tongues by definition, were doing so out of order, and in contrast needed to seek to use the gifts of interrpetation and prophecy, not because they did not have them, but because they had never used them. In other words, all Christians can prophecy, but it does not happen by accident, but by seeking God and desiring to do so.

quote:

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clearly different gifts to different people.. (
though it is not saying just one gift to one person..
but different gifts to different people)

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Yes, in the context of the one meeting, but if says in contrast

AND THE manifestation of the Spirit is given to all.

Now it's one thing for the translators to assume the word OR between items in a list, but I don't think they could turn AND A manifestation, meaning different manifestations to different people, into BUT THE, meaning one consistent sign of the Spirit. Acts 8 in any case disproves the AND A theory, as they didn't have the Spirit, and apart from the fact they had faith and healing, how does one externally measure wisdom, discernment or faith the way they measured that people did not have the Spirit in Acts 8 ?

quote:

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12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

where the inheritance is DIVIDED amoung the sons (well this son's portion devided from the estate to give to the son) so the gifts are divided amoung the body (which goes in the whole context of the body thing paul is talking about). we have gone over the TO ANOTHER etc.. before these are very clear in the text. to mean distrubuted to different people different gifts.. (like i gave my son a bicycle and a trainset, and i gave my daughter a girls bicycle and a barbie set, and i gave my other son a car)..
now to verse 7

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The prodigal son parable is also principally about ISrael and Judah, although it has application to salvation, the only Son who never left home was Jesus, and He is never jealous of our position in being forgiven our wrongs.

quote:

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so what is this manifestation... i don't believe it is tounges, OR soley tounges..

---

Fine by me, but to be a BUT it needs to contrast to the many gifts of the Spirit, and to be THE, it needs to always be the same. I'm happy to hear of another consistent sign of the Spirit from the Bible that can be externally measured as it was in Acts 8. This is always my question in regard to Acts 8, I know it does not even mention tongues.

quote:

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the root word is phaneroo with the following meanings in the dictionary
1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown,
to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
1a) make actual and visible, realised
1b) to make known by teaching
1c) to become manifest, be made known
1d) of a person
1d1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
1e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1e1) who and what one is

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Great - so how is it visible that someone has become a Christian ? Not over time, but at the time ?

quote:

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nowhere does it indicate that capital THE.. THE MANIFESTION of the SPIRIT is TOUNGES.. the manifestation of the spirit is anything that is the spirit showing himself, or revealing the spirit.. or making the spirit known in the linguistic sense anyway. in this context it seems, that the holy spirit manifests himself through the different gifts for the profit of all.. we have gone over the rest of this chapter before including when paul asks "do all do this? , do all do that?"
lets do it again quickly

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OK, then, so any gift can be the manifestation of the Spirit ? How about Acts 8 ? Do you then believe that only some Christians speak in tongues, some have faith and others have wisdom ? How about the fact that no-one in Corinth could interpret tongues ? Would you like me to prove from the Bible with nine references that every Christian has each of the nine gifts, and indeed needs them all ? Do you dispute that we all need wisdom, and that God gives liberally and upbraideth not ? That every Christian can pray for healing ? That we all need discernment, or knowledge of God ?

quote:

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a quick note.. that kjv translation uses a typical (now and especially then) retorhecal mechanism meaning NO.did didn't like my New Living Translation that cleared the abiquity of the KJV by putting the NO in there..

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The Greek asks in a way that expects the answer 'no'. No argument here. The question is not CAN all speak in tongues, but DO all speak in tongues, in the context of the body coming together.

quote:

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a primary particle of qualified negation
the keyword is NEGATION, it means negative..in the king james its translated as NOT 386 times,
as NO 44 times as God Forbid , as lest and but and as none.

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You knew that then ? Sorry :-)

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In my church there are some who are very wise,

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James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

quote:

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some who are stronger in faith than others,

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Romans 12: 3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Jude 20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

quote:

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some who can heal,

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I'm sorry, but the only thing I can say is rubbish. Only Godcan heal, and we can all equally pray to be healed. No scripture suggests that God needs the agency of any man in order to heal His people.

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some who are fantastic singers,

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Can't find any scripture that suggests musical ability is a gift of the Spirit :-)

quote:

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some who prophecize

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1 Cor 14:31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted

quote:

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and some who speak in tongues.

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1 Cor 14:26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

quote:

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They are all parts of one body. Thats how I account for it.

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Hence the second part of verse 26 - let all things be done unto edifying. We can do more than we will do in any one meeting, because order means that only one person will preach, three people tops will speak in tongues, the same number will interpret and three tops will prophecy. Only some of the church will pray for the sick, so that this can be done in an orderly manner, etc.

Would you argue that James 1:5 does not mean that we can all pray for wisdom and recieve it ? Or generally argue that only some people have faith ? If we're saved by faith and some people have more faith, are they more saved ? The Bible says faith is a gift from God, and we all have the measure of faith. The difference is how we exercise it, in the same way the difference in 1 Cor 14 was not their having certain gifts, but how they exercised them.

quote:

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(KARL)
if it doesn't mean AND, then it means OR.. if it means OR its NOT an exclusive or... it would be reasonible to say that in one meeting somebody spoke in tounges, in another not, in another meeting that person gave a revelation.. however it does not say that.. that is just something that can be guessed.. because equally it could be that in some meetings a certian person doesn't speak in a tounge ever..

---

quote:

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(meanman)
Yes, that is right. Assuming that only some people are ever able to offer a psalm, a doctrine or a relevation, one of the three possible interpretations of this verse is that only some people could ever speak in tongues in a meeting.

---

quote:

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(KARL)
these scriptures are about order, not about the fact that everybody speaks in tounges.. its not hte major nor the minor theme of this section of scripture..

---

quote:

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(meanman)
Correct, and you'll note I did not quote it in my detailed reply on my beliefs. However, it is the biggest passage in the Bible on the gifts of the Spirit, and tongues especially, and it, in my mind, clearly assumes that all in Corinth could speak in tongues by definition, were doing so out of order, and in contrast needed to seek to use the gifts of interrpetation and prophecy, not because they did not have them, but because they had never used them. In other words, all Christians can prophecy, but it does not happen by accident, but by seeking God and desiring to do so.

---

quote:

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(karl)
clearly different gifts to different people.. (
though it is not saying just one gift to one person..
but different gifts to different people)

---

quote:

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(MEANMAN)
Yes, in the context of the one meeting, but if says in contrast

AND THE manifestation of the Spirit is given to all.

Now it's one thing for the translators to assume the word OR between items in a list, but I don't think they could turn AND A manifestation, meaning different manifestations to different people, into BUT THE, meaning one consistent sign of the Spirit. Acts 8 in any case disproves the AND A theory, as they didn't have the Spirit, and apart from the fact they had faith and healing, how does one externally measure wisdom, discernment or faith the way they measured that people did not have the Spirit in Acts 8 ?

---

1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown,
to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way
1a) make actual and visible, realised
1b) to make known by teaching
1c) to become manifest, be made known
1d) of a person
1d1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear
1e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood
1e1) who and what one is

what is the manifestation of the labors of a copy editor... its not obvious to any really... its just his spelling mistakes.. the spirit can manifest to me understanding
on the importance of patience.. completely internal but correct to that point... it just means that all have the spirit and the works of hte spirit in their lives..If you ask most christians their testimony, it is OBVIOUS that the spirit has been working there.. this has nothing to do with tounges..
also in the original greek there is no THE... however the verb manifest is norminalised and thus needs a the to sound right in english.. so its not saying that one parcituclar
sign is THE manifestation... its just that the holy spirit manifests himself in an through believers lives.. i can go much further into all the cases when manifest is used
if you would like.. as for acts 8 i'll get to that when i have more time..

quote:

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(KARL)
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

where the inheritance is DIVIDED amoung the sons (well this son's portion devided from the estate to give to the son) so the gifts are divided amoung the body (which goes in the whole context of the body thing paul is talking about). we have gone over the TO ANOTHER etc.. before these are very clear in the text. to mean distrubuted to different people different gifts.. (like i gave my son a bicycle and a trainset, and i gave my daughter a girls bicycle and a barbie set, and i gave my other son a car)..
now to verse 7

---

quote:

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(MEANMAN)
The prodigal son parable is also principally about ISrael and Judah, although it has application to salvation, the only Son who never left home was Jesus, and He is never jealous of our position in being forgiven our wrongs.

---

quote:

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(KARL)

so what is this manifestation... i don't believe it is tounges, OR soley tounges..

---

quote:

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(MEANMAN
Fine by me, but to be a BUT it needs to contrast to the many gifts of the Spirit, and to be THE, it needs to always be the same. I'm happy to hear of another consistent sign of the Spirit from the Bible that can be externally measured as it was in Acts 8. This is always my question in regard to Acts 8, I know it does not even mention tongues.

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at a later time i'll cover these points here in great detail , cover faith and also the word "believe " for its much stronger than the english word believe.

quote:

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(meanman)
Great - so how is it visible that someone has become a Christian ? Not over time, but at the time ?

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(mat 16:1) 1The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. 2He replied,[1] "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,' 3and in the morning, 'Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.

I'll expound on the following scriputres at a later date
romans5

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[1] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[2] rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

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(KARL)
a quick note.. that kjv translation uses a typical (now and especially then) retorhecal mechanism meaning NO.did didn't like my New Living Translation that cleared the abiquity of the KJV by putting the NO in there..

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(MEANMAN)
The Greek asks in a way that expects the answer 'no'. No argument here. The question is not CAN all speak in tongues, but DO all speak in tongues, in the context of the body coming together.

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(KARL)
a primary particle of qualified negation
the keyword is NEGATION, it means negative..in the king james its translated as NOT 386 times,
as NO 44 times as God Forbid , as lest and but and as none.

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You knew that then ? Sorry :-)

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Karl

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 27, 2002).]

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the reason that some could only ever speak in tounges in a meeting maybe because some don't have the ability to speak in tounges fullstop maybe?

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That is one possible interpretation of this verse taken in isolation, one of three. It does not gel with a number of other verses in 1 Cor 14, for example, why does Paul talk about them all speaking in tongues at once if this is obviously not possible ?

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so actually in your belief it is possible that all the christians here who don't speak in tounges are actually saved.. its just they have have never realised or
exercised their gift of tounges, and just as some may never be used by God to manifest prophecy to people, they have never yet (and maybe never will)
manifest tounges out loud?

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Goodness no. Unlike the other gifts, which a Christian must seek to use, tongues is a given because it is the manifestation of the Spirit.

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yes it does say , and i believe that the manifestation of he Spirit is given to all.. as with my previous words on the word manifest and manifestation in greek..
in modern english we see it as something phyiscally obvious.... however it just means apears, becomes apparent

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Can I highlight that you said 'physically obvious' ? And point out that things listed in 1 Cor 12 were 'physically obvious' amongst the unsaved believers in Acts 8 ?

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i was just talking about the word and not the prodigal son.. would you like to (in another thread) elaborate on this israel and Judah stuff.. I believe the prodical son is
much much more than just that.. but i am interested to hear your beliefs on british israel..

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When I have time, if you like. I hate bringing it up because usually someone will misinterpret what I say as racist, no matter how clear I am about it. Anyhow, I do agree this parable has other partial application, but as I said, the son who remained is not jealous, He died for us to be able to come back, as it where.

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there is no THE in the original text... so that means it doesn't have to be the same.... however even with the the it doesn't mean the same... my BOSS can give me THE WORK for the month... it doesn't mean all that work is the same... but there is no the... also the but is in contrast..

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So the words 'but' and 'the' are not present or implied in the Greek ?

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i'll get to acts 8 later.. however why does it have to be externally measured.. (other than for people who are insure in their faith and their security of salvation)..

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Because it was in Acts 8, that's all. Also because in Luke 11 Jesus said to keep on asking until we have the Spirit. Conversely, the Bible says when we DO have salvation, we will know, and one thing that was very different when I obeyed the Gospel as opposed to the 'prayer of salvation' path I followed for years is that after the many times of going through the ritual in all sincerity, when I obeyed the Gospel was the only time no-one presumed to tell me I had the Spirit, and the only time I was able to tell them, because I did.

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for aren't spiritual things spiritualy dicerned (1 cor 2:14) and isn't salvation recieved on faith? through believing (things which are unseen - if only he had also put in UNHEARD for clairty (Hebrews 11:1)..(2 cor 4:18).. God alone is the judge and the one who knows our hearts, we don't need to be able to say He is saved or I am saved

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Absolutely. You're wishing God had said something He didn't ? The core thing is between God and the individual and is not seen. Tongues is not salvation, it's the manifestation of salvation.

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because i can hear him speak in tounges.. for to me that doesn't mean anything.. if somebody seeks tounges more than God, and seek it like an Idol.. its possible for the devil to give a counterfiet.. (i believe tounges is genuine).. but i've seen satanists speak in satanic tounges, i've seen their eyes glow red while doing it..

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1. No-one should ever seek tongues, they should seek God for salvation. I don't believe anyone who just wanted the gift, and not salvation, would recieve it, because their heart would not be right.

2. Rubbish - Satan does not have that power, nor can he give anything to someone who is looking to God. That would make him equal to God.

3. I can still speak gibberish, it is different to tongues. In that sense the devil provides counterfeits to cloud the issue, but not to people asking God for something.

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typically the need for a sign is a indication of faithlessness.. and here the Pharisees, the legalistics of the days are wanting a sign from God..
I have recieved my salvation from Christ in faith.. and faith pleases God.. and without faith it is impossible to please God(hebrews 11:5-6 )

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And JW's say 'I don't need Jehovah to heal me'. The point is not what we feel we need, be it more signs or less, but what God has decided to give. The sign of tongues is given to people who already have repented and shown faith, it is the first miracle in the life of a person who has decided to follow God, not a sign to make someone turn to God. That is very different from the attitude in the scripture you quote. God does not give out signs on our request, but the Gospel is still one of signs following. There is no dichotomy in that.

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ephesians 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

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Amen. I hope you don't think I disagree, or that you think God doing more than sitting up there looking down on us somehow is destructive to the idea of faith, or grace.

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the verbs used indicate more than just no USING those gifts in a meeting... but also ABILITY
i.e NOT ALL HAVE GIFT OF HEALING..
rather than not all use/exercise the GIFT of HEALING.

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SO you're saying 1 Cor 12, from the Greek, says only some Christians can pray to be healed ?

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hehe, sorry thats so funny, it sounds condecending doesn't it.. i am sorry i was just trying to be extra clear...
your sarcasm in this case brings a smile to my face, thankyou

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Glad to make you smile, but I actually explained it before reading that you already knew it :-)

1. ALL Christians are capable of ALL Spiritual Gifts, and if not then they are not really Christians.
2. When Paul says "Not all Christians speak in tongues, not all... etc" he is speaking specifically in the context of a meeting.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

that the "manifestation of the spirit" means abosolutely and exclusively tounges?

is that correct?

so that we aren't covering so many points and missing the main points of each others posts, lets start some threads that cover just individual points.. that way we can be consise and know what we are talking about and replying to..

i.e one point thread would be "manifestation of the spirit"
another would be 1 cor 12 in general..
another would be ME PAS (not all speak in tounges)
another would be acts8..
just an idea..

is it true that "the manifestation of the spirit = tounges" is foundational to your belief that all christians speak in tounges and one doesn't speak in tounges then one isn't saved?

as for the rest of what you replied to today.. i'll answer tommorow since i need to get more work done and spend time with my lovely wife

God Bless..
Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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1. ALL Christians are capable of ALL Spiritual Gifts, and if not then they are not really Christians.
2. When Paul says "Not all Christians speak in tongues, not all... etc" he is speaking specifically in the context of a meeting.

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1. Sort of. All Christians speak in tongues, and are Christians if they choose to use the other gifts or not. You'll not Paul does not suggest those in Corinth are not saved anywhere, and he encourages them to seek interepretation and prophecy, so they obviously did not use these gifts yet, but the point is they were able to, by definition.

2. Yes - he says in the negative that not all do in 1 Cor 12 ( in the context of the body coming together ), and says that all can in 1 Cor 14. Really the context of that verse is to contrast tongues with other things in order to point out that all speaking in tongues makes as much sense as if everyone preaches, or does any other thing that only a subset of the church will do in any one meeting.

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also
that the "manifestation of the spirit" means abosolutely and exclusively tounges?

is that correct?

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1 Cor does not say this explicitly, only that there is a single manifestation in contrast to there being many gifts. But yes, from the rest of the Bible, tongues is clearly the single manifestation of the Spirit.

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so that we aren't covering so many points and missing the main points of each others posts, lets start some threads that cover just individual points.. that way we can be consise and know what we are talking about and replying to..

i.e one point thread would be "manifestation of the spirit"
another would be 1 cor 12 in general..
another would be ME PAS (not all speak in tounges)
another would be acts8..
just an idea..

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It's a sound idea, but in practice I think it would create a flood of threads.

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is it true that "the manifestation of the spirit = tounges" is foundational to your belief that all christians speak in tounges and one doesn't speak in tounges then one isn't saved?

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It's pretty much a rewording of it, actually. That is the point - the manifestation of the Spirit is tongues, with good reason, and so all Christians speak in tongues by default.

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as for the rest of what you replied to today.. i'll answer tommorow since i need to get more work done and spend time with my lovely wife

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I know how you feel, it's 1:30 pm here, I'll stay at work until 8ish tonight to learn some ASP, then go home to *my* lovely wife....

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Try some exegesis here - what is the context in which Paul is writing this or why is he writing this. Why does he give us the analogy that we are all different parts of one body ? Why does he ask the Corinthians questions like are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? do all work miracles? do all have gifts of healing? do all speak in tongues?

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Can I just add that

1. Paul makes this analogy to point out that tongues are an important part of a meeting, but like any other part they are just a part. 1 Cor 12-14 are not chapters in isolation but a logical train of thought. That Paul was principally concerned with the so-called 'voice gifts' is obvious because that is where his focus narrows. The chapter divisions are logical though:

12: There are lots of different gifts, and all are equally important to the runing of a meeting. No one person is going to do them all in the context of one meeting
13: Love is the principal thing - the gifts are a vehicle for this age, but love is eternal and the core of the Gospel
14: Tongues are less important to a meeting than other gifts not being used in Corinth, so seek them also, and use the gifts as follows.

2. I did not bring 1 Cor into this again, because I agree that none of it is written to tell us about salvation, although it happens to be the biggest single passage on tongues in the church and a lot can be learned from it. I asked for people to address the scriptures I originally posted. I'm happy to discuss 1 Cor as well, I believe it supports my views ( in fact I must believe that, because I do not believe in using the Bible to disprove the Bible ).

3. I'd really like to see answers to *my* questions, especially now that I have posted them, the scriptures that promise each of the things you said only some people have in your church to all Christians. I think this is the core issue if we want to look at 1 Cor 12-14, I've accepted that one out of three possible interpretations of 1 Cor 14:26 does not support my views, I think that this means we need to look to other scriptures to be sure of what this one is saying ( although the majority of possible interpretations is with me, I believe God's Word is clearer than that, and only unclear in this verse for people who do not understand the things Paul expected those in Corinth to understand as he wrote them ). The fact that the Bible promises each of the nine gifts in 1 Cor 12 to all Christians, and some of them so clearly as to be without dispute ( such as faith and wisdom ) is the core problem you face in suggesting 1 Cor 12-14 says that not all Christians speak in tongues.

I've decided that it is my fault that the focus remains on my views while other people present views that are quickly discarded and never put into the spotlight. The idea that people can recieve the Spirit and not even know is another I would like to see discussed properly, because it's clearly untenable, and I think it only fair that the views other people present be given as much scrutiny as my own.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited February 28, 2002).]

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If it could be shown that when Paul said "Not all Christians speak in tongues, not all... etc" he was not talking in the context of a single meeting, but the church as a whole, would you concede that Paul (at least in 1 Cor) disagrees with your Tongues==Salvation view?

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What you need to do is not find a verse where Paul says otherwise as much as explain why Paul lists tongues with gifts like wisdom, which he states elsewhere God will give to everyone who asks Him. If indeed a scripture was found that said 'not evey Christian has the ability to speak in tongues', then the other verses I point to must make sense in light of that verse, or the Bible is useless, because not all of it is correct.

If you could provide such a verse and an exegesis, then of course.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

I think they are talking about to different things. A "message of wisdom from the Holy Spirit" is to wisdom, what a "message of knowledge" is to knowledge. Plenty of people have knowledge and wisdom (and don't necessarily use it for good), but a "message" of either from the Holy Spirit is something God gives us at a specific time to help us or to help us help somebody else.

Now my question to you (and I must thank you for being very obliging in answering all my questions)

Why if Paul is talking about a meeting in 1 Cor 27-31 does he start by saying "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed..." ? It seems a little confusing for Paul to say "in the church" when he really means "at a meeting".

Any why does he end by saying "But eagerly desire the greater gifts." if he is talking about a meeting and they ALL, have ALL the gifts anyway ?

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

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1 Corinthians 12:8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

I think they are talking about to different things. A "message of wisdom from the Holy Spirit" is to wisdom, what a "message of knowledge" is to knowledge. Plenty of people have knowledge and wisdom (and don't necessarily use it for good), but a "message" of either from the Holy Spirit is something God gives us at a specific time to help us or to help us help somebody else.

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So you see a difference between having wisdom, and having a 'message of wisdom' ? I guess so, but only in that one is a superset of the other. I don't see that someone gets up and says 'I have a message of wisdom for the church', or 'I have a message of knowledge', I believe that these are things the Holy Spirit works in us as we iner-relate as the church, so that our fellowship is blessed. I note that Paul is specific about people using tongues, interpretation and prophecy in the church but makes no mention of messages of wisdom or knowledge.

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Now my question to you (and I must thank you for being very obliging in answering all my questions)

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Glad to oblige :-)

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Why if Paul is talking about a meeting in 1 Cor 27-31 does he start by saying "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed..." ? It seems a little confusing for Paul to say "in the church" when he really means "at a meeting".

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How do they differ ? Yes, Christian's united ARE the church, but the context is obviously of the church coming together ?

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Any why does he end by saying "But eagerly desire the greater gifts." if he is talking about a meeting and they ALL, have ALL the gifts anyway ?

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Can I give several answers ? The first is a question. If we agree that 1 Cor 12-14 is written to a group of people misusing and overemphasising the gift of tongues specifically, then why would Paul tell them all to seek a gift that you believe only some of them could have ?

My answer - as they are all Christians, they all are able to use all of the gifts, but the same as James says we must ask God for wisdom, people do not start to prophecy in a meeting without their control, or without desiring to. If this were not so, 1 Cor 14 would make no sense, and also be a waste of time. So these people are able to use the gifts by default, but they needed to be encouraged to seek to do so, in the orderly manner that Paul proscribed. It's no different to Christians having free will over if they choose to grow the fruits of the Spirit in thier life. No matter what a person was before, all Christians can exhibit all the fruits, but there is still free will.

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
Can I give several answers ? The first is a question. If we agree that 1 Cor 12-14 is written to a group of people misusing and overemphasising the gift of tongues specifically, then why would Paul tell them all to seek a gift that you believe only some of them could have ?

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Oki, where does Paul tell them to specifically seek the gift of tongues ? I don't believe certain Christians are "incapable" of certain gifts - I just believe God gives those gifts when and where he chooses, and as you say - usually only to those who actively seek them. Me thinks sometimes we agree with each other more than we know

I am surprised you seem unfamiliar with "words of knowledge" - that is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit I think I have seen most. Very often people will get up in church and announce that there is someone (sometimes they have a name) here with a particular problem or illness (normally quite specific) and urge them to come forth for prayer.

You ask how I think "a meeting" and the "Church of God / Body of Christ" differ. A meeting to me is a specific time and place, and the Church of God / Body of Christ is what christians have been for the last 2000 years in every country in the world.

PS. I have been feeling a little bad about some of my earlier posts - I think being accused of not being a christian really brought out the worst in me. Sorry.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited March 01, 2002).]

What if a man heals by the holy spirit - but never speaks in tongues his whole life. God would never give a gift of the Holy Spirit to a non-christian, so he must be a christian. What do you think ?

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Oki, where does Paul tell them to specifically seek the gift of tongues ?

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If I'm right, it would be idiotic for him to do so. If he DID say this, it would prove me wrong, by proving there are Christians who do not speak in tongues.

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I don't believe certain Christians are "incapable" of certain gifts - I just believe God gives those gifts when and where he chooses, and as you say - usually only to those who actively seek them. Me thinks sometimes we agree with each other more than we know

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Quite possibly. I don't take anything for granted, and I agree to some degree with most people :-)

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I am surprised you seem unfamiliar with "words of knowledge" - that is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit I think I have seen most. Very often people will get up in church and announce that there is someone (sometimes they have a name) here with a particular problem or illness (normally quite specific) and urge them to come forth for prayer.

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I know it, but it's rubbish. The Bible presents no framework for this, it is an invention of the modern church. Why do I say this ? Well, lets start with the idea that God requires us to come forward in faith - how is it faithful for God to ORDER us to the front ?

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You ask how I think "a meeting" and the "Church of God / Body of Christ" differ. A meeting to me is a specific time and place, and the Church of God / Body of Christ is what christians have been for the last 2000 years in every country in the world.

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Yes, of course. The point is the context is not the body of Christ going to the supermarket, but coming together for a meeting.

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PS. I have been feeling a little bad about some of my earlier posts - I think being accused of not being a christian really brought out the worst in me. Sorry.

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I certainly appreciate you saying so, and I understand. I can't begin to tell you how hostile I was to the gospel for the six months I heard it and insisted I was saved by grace through faith, which excluded the possibility of a sign and meant that there was no evidence of salvation.

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What if a man heals by the holy spirit - but never speaks in tongues his whole life. God would never give a gift of the Holy Spirit to a non-christian, so he must be a christian. What do you think ?

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Christianity is not a prerequisite for healing, and certainly you're way off base in that the gift of healing is not the ability to heal people, but to be healed. Any person can pray to be healed, the only thing Jesus said was that we need faith. A non-Christian can believe that God heals and it will be so.

So there's two problems - the idea that God needs a man to be the agent of healing, and the idea that only Christians can be healed.

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz: (talking about Words of Knowledge)
I know it, but it's rubbish. The Bible presents no framework for this, it is an invention of the modern church. Why do I say this ? Well, lets start with the idea that God requires us to come forward in faith - how is it faithful for God to ORDER us to the front ?

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This will sound harsh, but I am really starting to question your experience of the Holy Spirit. Words of Knowledge isn't an invention of the modern church, it's what Paul was talking about when he said "To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit." and what you can see happening if you were to come to my church. It has nothing to do with God ordering us to the front. Its more about enabling us to pray and care for one another.

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
Christianity is not a prerequisite for healing, and certainly you're way off base in that the gift of healing is not the ability to heal people, but to be healed. Any person can pray to be healed, the only thing Jesus said was that we need faith. A non-Christian can believe that God heals and it will be so.

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I am not sure if I understand what you are saying, that we shouldn't be praying for others to be healed ? That the gift of healing is just something to keep us healthy ? I am curious, have you ever seen anybody be healed ?

Perhaps it would be helpful if you could talk about your experience of the Holy Spirit

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited March 02, 2002).]

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This will sound harsh, but I am really starting to question your experience of the Holy Spirit. Words of Knowledge isn't an invention of the modern church, it's what Paul was talking about when he said "To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit." and what you can see happening if you were to come to my church. It has nothing to do with God ordering us to the front. Its more about enabling us to pray and care for one another.

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Knowledge and wisdom by the Holy Spirit are not an invention, the idea that they are knowledge and wisdom regarding natural things is an invention. As I said before, 1 Cor 12-14 goes to great lengths to order the gifts in the church, if the word of knowledge is what you claim it is ( knowledge that someone has a sore neck and a divine utterance to send that person forward for healing ), then why doesn't the Bible say so, especially in this part of the Bible, where Paul would tell us how to use the gift in the church if that was how it worked.

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I am not sure if I understand what you are saying, that we shouldn't be praying for others to be healed ? That the gift of healing is just something to keep us healthy ? I am curious, have you ever seen anybody be healed ?

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Fair enough. I myself have been healed, most significantly, of a lung disease that caused my lungs to spontaneously scar, which was incurable. I've prayed for many people to be healed, the defining thing is that those people exercised faith by coming forward to pray for healing. The gifts from time to time urge people generically to bring their needs before God, but there is no precedent for God singling out an individual by divine inspiration, and ordering them to the front for prayer - that goes against the whole notion of free will and is not supported directly in the Bible anywhere. Your belief is based on three words in 1 Cor 12, and an explanation of it's meaning by your church, not by the Bible.

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Perhaps it would be helpful if you could talk about your experience of the Holy Spirit

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In my experience when someone becomes a Christian, they are often healed/delivered of differing things, depending on thier situation - the common denominator being that they always speak in tongues. In my experience if the sick are prayed for they will recover. In my experience God does not contridcit HImself, or do things outside the scope of scripture, such as pushing people over, making them bark like a dog, or inspiring them with personal details of other peoples lives to broadcast to the church.

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
In my experience God does not contridcit HImself, or do things outside the scope of scripture, such as pushing people over, making them bark like a dog, or inspiring them with personal details of other peoples lives to broadcast to the church.

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We both know there are churches who mimic the Gifts of the Spirit for their own glory. Pastors that push people to the ground and proclaim a manifestation of the Spirit, people who make vague claims and call it a Word of Knowledge from the Spirit, and those who make obvious prophecies to make them selves look Holy.

My understanding of Words of Knowledge is NOT that (as I have said before). It is many things. It is the is knowledge frequently given to Paul to direct his ministries. It is the insight people receive when praying for someone which helps them to pray and care for that person. It is the insight Karl received about your church. And it is often given to us to make us aware of other people's problems when God sees they are suffering in silence.

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
Your belief is based on three words in 1 Cor 12, and an explanation of it's meaning by your church, not by the Bible.

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My belief as I have given you above is based only on my personal experience and my reading of Acts and Corinthians.

I thank God you were healed of your lung disease. Isn't God fantastic

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We both know there are churches who mimic the Gifts of the Spirit for their own glory. Pastors that push people to the ground and proclaim a manifestation of the Spirit, people who make vague claims and call it a Word of Knowledge from the Spirit, and those who make obvious prophecies to make them selves look Holy.

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So how do you tell who has word of knowledge, and who is making it up ? More to the point, how do you tell if they are making it up sincerely thinking they have this gift ? Do you believe God pushes people over ?

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My understanding of Words of Knowledge is NOT that (as I have said before). It is many things. It is the is knowledge frequently given to Paul to direct his ministries. It is the insight people receive when praying for someone which helps them to pray and care for that person.

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I don't need to know the intimate details of a persons need, because God knows. If the matter is personal, people quite often just say they have a healing need. The need is between them and God, it's none of my business.

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It is the insight Karl received about your church.

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What, that he knows some ex-RCI people and recognised the doctrine ? I don't think so.

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And it is often given to us to make us aware of other people's problems when God sees they are suffering in silence.

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That part is fine, God obviously moves in His church and would have us to be sensitive to the needs of others. I'm happy to say that He is a vehicle for such understanding, but that's different to someone getting up and broadcasting to the church that I suffer from premature ejaculation or haemoroids. Do you see my point ?

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My belief as I have given you above is based only on my personal experience and my reading of Acts and Corinthians.

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I'd be interested to know where in Acts the word of knowledge is shown to be someone speaking about other peoples problems by inspiration in the church. People getting up and shouting what someone needs to pray about is obviously a system ripe for abuse as well as disorder, and therefore well under the aegis of what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 12-14. Therefore if it involved people speaking out during a meeting, he would cover it there.

Love in Christ
Gift

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One time my wife was distressed quite a bit because she lost her diamond engangement ring. She mensioned this right before our evening prayers, so I so I prayed to Jesus aknowelageing that He knows all and sees all and that He knows where the ring is and imeadiatly GOD responded saying that if she cleans under the bed that she will find it. I told my wife that imeadiatly the next day she was cleaning under the bed guess what she found, her ring. Now that I believe is a word of knowledge. GOD knows that I prayed alot for the gift of toungs asking Him, men of GOD laying their hands on me, reading books, doing studies on it. Seems though that the Lord has some other plans.

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1. Reading books ?

2. I dunno that the location of your keys qualifies as wisdom. I don't doubt God's abolity to bless this situation, but I don't think that's really where God's focus is. I think His focus is where ours should be, on His Kingdom. I think wisdom and knowledge pertains to spiritual things, not natural. Our natural needs are, of course, met, but that is not the be all and end all of salvation.

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
So how do you tell who has word of knowledge, and who is making it up ? More to the point, how do you tell if they are making it up sincerely thinking they have this gift ? Do you believe God pushes people over ?

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
I don't need to know the intimate details of a persons need, because God knows. If the matter is personal, people quite often just say they have a healing need. The need is between them and God, it's none of my business.

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
I'm happy to say that He is a vehicle for such understanding, but that's different to someone getting up and broadcasting to the church that I suffer from premature ejaculation or haemoroids. Do you see my point ?

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If you are quite finished mocking other people's experience of the Holy Spirit may I ask you two questions - what is easier to fake - speaking in incoherent tongues or praying for people and being given personal details about that person such as their name, and what their problem is ? What in your opinion is the greater gift ?

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

About this whole toungs thing, I can see your pretty committed to that teaching for you either that teaching is true or the whole Bible is wrong and contridicting itself. I've reasoned that at times when really fighting for a doctrine that I wanted to be true, sometimes the Saint must admit that I know in part only and my knowledge is not perfect, from studing Acts today it seams there is plenty of room for not all Christians speaking in toungs I just skimed the book but from when Paul and Barnibus get sent off they only mension speaking in toungs at Ephesus. I have heard many reason that the other occurances were given by GOD to encourage the Apostles by a visable sign that indead people of all types were getting saved. Well just a few words for you to kick around.
Chow
Love in Christ
Gift

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Nobody in my church feels that they have to demonstrate gifts of the Spirit to prove to everybody else they are a Christian. In fact they are going to feel a little embarassed if they are wrong - but guess what - they are normally right. And I have never seen anybody fall over or be pushed over. I can't imagine why God would want to push people over when they come to him for help.

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I was asking because that is another thing I saw a lot of before I became a Christian, so just clarifying where you are coming from.

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No you don't need to know the intimate details - but it might help. I guess it depends how much you want to care for that person.

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The point of prayer is not to care for a person beyond putting their petition before God. Of *course* our care goes beyond the spiritual, as James says, but the point is still that for the purposes of the prayer line, people come out in faith and only God need know the problem.

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Why would God want to humiliate someone ? You seem fixated on this idea about anouncing embarrassing medical conditions to the entire congregation.

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I'm using an example to show that what you're claiming, apart from not being in the Bible and working against free will and faith, has some problems in practicality.

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If you are quite finished mocking other people's experience of the Holy Spirit may I ask you two questions - what is easier to fake - speaking in incoherent tongues or praying for people and being given personal details about that person such as their name, and what their problem is ? What in your opinion is the greater gift ?

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Well, let's put this in perspective. If I know the people involved then I'd say they are as easy as each other to fake. The question on that fron is why would you, that is if it were deliberate faking.

So that leaves the question, which is greater, praying to God in a language He gives, because we know not what to pray for, a form of prayer that the Bible says God requires of us, and which keeps us in His love, and broadcasting peoples personal details at some unspecified time during the meeting. In that context, I know which I'd rather, but the point of 1 Cor 12-14 is precisely that while some gifts are 'greater' in different contexts, they are not a measure of anything in the church, because every Christian can use them all and must do so in love.

All of this avoids the core question - why doesn't Paul address what you consider this gift to be, and how it should operate in the church when he goes to pains to order other gifts that are part of a meeting structure ? And why do you think these gifts exist to give earthly rather than heavenly knowledge ? Finally, what about faith - shouldn't people ask for prayer out of faith in God, instead of by compulsion ?

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He made an axe head float once. The man of GOD just thru a stick in the water cuz this dude barrowed the axe, GOD made it float. The Lord does care about us and little things I call those blessings pennies from heaven.

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I don't dispute that - you'll note I did not deny the 'lost my keys' story, only that this is not word of knowledge, it is a blessing from God, but not one of the gifts given for the working of the church.

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He is also conserned with His kingdom say for instance He might call someone living oneplace to go to another to bless His kingdom its like yeast working its way through doe. He can see potential oppertunity someone who's ministry might be stagnating in one place could even dream of going somewhare else. That dream in its self is a powerful thing a motivating thing its vision, without vision the people are dead learnt that from my pastor. So when your so hard on your dad it makes me sad.

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Well, it seems to me that there are plenty of unsaved people in Australia. The thought that he does nothing for the kingdom here, but goes off to preach in a foreign land just makes no sense to me. I admire his commitment, but I also believe there is a degree to which he goes for his own glory. Only God can judge that, but either way, he should preach the gospel where he is first and foremost.

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About this whole toungs thing, I can see your pretty committed to that teaching for you either that teaching is true or the whole Bible is wrong and contridicting itself. I've reasoned that at times when really fighting for a doctrine that I wanted to be true, sometimes the Saint must admit that I know in part only and my knowledge is not perfect, from studing Acts today it seams there is plenty of room for not all Christians speaking in toungs I just skimed the book but from when Paul and Barnibus get sent off they only mension speaking in toungs at Ephesus. I have heard many reason that the other occurances were given by GOD to encourage the Apostles by a visable sign that indead people of all types were getting saved. Well just a few words for you to kick around.

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Acts mentions what happened when people were saved three times, and in each it is tongues. Bringing up Ephesus, I think the core issue here is Pauls question 'Have you recieved the Spirit since you believed ?'. Do you believe that belief does not equal salvation ? How do you think Paul expected these people to know that they had the Spirit ? How did they know ?

1 Cor 12:8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,

1 Cor 14:19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1 Cor 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

1 Cor 14:30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.

The reason you are unfamiliar with this is because you have presumed that you have all the gifts the Holy Spirit can offer, and so have bent what Paul says here to fit your own experiences.

You also seem unfamiliar with the concept of a church being a place where one can find love and care regardless of the measure of one's faith. I can't tell you how much I would love you to see a church like the one I go to, where people could show you what "love thy neighbour" really means and pray for you in a caring way.

God Bless you MeanMan.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

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MeanMan please read my posts in future. You are still equating "Words of Knowledge" with broadcasting people's personal details in church. I have said repeatedly that I believe it is ANY truth given to a person by God at a specific time. Hear what Paul says:

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In that case I apologise for misinterpreting these words:

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I am surprised you seem unfamiliar with "words of knowledge" - that is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit I think I have seen most. Very often people will get up in church and announce that there is someone (sometimes they have a name) here with a particular problem or illness (normally quite specific) and urge them to come forth for prayer.

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and considering that in line with Pentecostal excesses I have seen before, I thought you were advocating people getting up in church and announcing that there is someone (sometimes they have a name) present with a particular problem or illness (normally quite specific) and urging them to come forth for prayer.

Seriously, I understand that you went on to it is all sorts of worldly knowledge of each other, the point is you initially gave this definition and did not retract it, so I have focused on the fact that this aspect is unsupported by scripture and contrary to a number of basic Bible principles (such as free will). You have not replied, instead taking the moral high ground that you 'never said' that God was broadcasting peoples problems to the church. If you're retracting your original statement, please do so, so that I can understand your position. In return, I promise not to make assumptions, based on the Pentecostal excesses I saw in churches full of Christians, but all too scared of telling people the Gospel, in case it offended them and they left.

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1 Cor 12:8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,

1 Cor 14:19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

1 Cor 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

1 Cor 14:30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.

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None of the other verses you quote refer to wisdom or knowledge, you still have no scriptural backing for these gifts being an expected specific part of a meeting, the way the voice gifts are.

14:19 is talking about Paul teaching in the local language, 26 does not mention words of wisdom or knowldege, and the word 'revelation' ties in with 14:30, where Paul is talking about the gift of prophecy.

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The reason you are unfamiliar with this is because you have presumed that you have all the gifts the Holy Spirit can offer, and so have bent what Paul says here to fit your own experiences.

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Not at all - I affirmed that all Christians could prophecy long before I used the gift, because the Bible says so. I affirm that a Christian can pray for a dead person and see them live again, although I've never done this myself.

This was a cheap shot that I could as easily reciprocate, but I won't, because it would prove nothing and cheapen me in the saying of it.

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You also seem unfamiliar with the concept of a church being a place where one can find love and care regardless of the measure of one's faith.

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How bizarre. I have affirmed the words of James on this thread - it is of no value to tell someone to be warmed and filled unless we are willing to warm and fill them. The church cares for non-Christians principally by preaching the Gospel, however there is every reason to present the Gospel with compassion and care for an individuals needs and circumstance.

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I can't tell you how much I would love you to see a church like the one I go to, where people could show you what "love thy neighbour" really means and pray for you in a caring way

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I find it incredibly presumptuous and rude of you to pass judgement on a church you've never seen based on your misappropriation of my statements. It is however, much easier to be rude than to actually comment from the Bible, in this case in regard to the fact that Paul singles out wisdom and knowledge as gifts in the church ( among others ), spends two chapters explaining the motivation for the gifts and how the gifts that are a part of the structure of a meeting should be organised, but does not address what now appears to be in your eyes an *aspect* of the 'word of knowledge' is people getting up in a meeting and broadcasting the personal problems of others. It would further be more difficult for you to address how this fails to negate the need for people to ask God in faith ( notwithstanding our ability to pray for one another, that is different to forcing people forward ), or the general thought that the wisdom and knowledge God gives is to any degree of each other and not of Him.

It is to the fruits we must look to see the model of how the church should treat one another, and no amount of divine inspiration in the form of specific instruction is needed for the church to show love, joy, longsuffering, goodness, temperance, etc. in our dealings with one another and the rest of the world.

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(meanman)
So how do you tell who has word of knowledge, and who is making it up ? More to the point, how do you tell if they are making it up sincerely thinking they have this gift ? Do you believe God pushes people over ?

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well the bible says that when one brings a prophetic word, other prophets should remain quite and dicern..
its true that many men can fake things, and people can go to excesses.. but look at the excesses of tounges in some pentecostal churches, does that make tounges wrong..
I've had times when people have tried to push me over, and i've rebuked them.. other times i have fallen over.. most people i've seen fall over it has been with nobody touching them at the time the recieved tounges..
however there is no biblical backing for that.. the only falling over in the bible was the opposite, falling FORWARD, in submission to God..but then mideast culture of thenabouts was similar to fareastern culture of today in that respect of bowing.. anyhow i'm not so interested in discussing this sort of thing so much as just tounges, because its challenging the foundations of the gospel which is salvation.. i may talk of the other things at a future date though.. but there is enough material in these tounges chats to last many hours

as for gifts of healing..
i beleive that people can have gifts to heal.. i've seen people pray for little children and infants who had deformities and seen the power of God release that Child right there before my eyes.. i've seen a toed kid have a toe dissapear..
but there is also truth in the fact that the gift of healing is something we all can have and relate to ourselves.. and it can be idolatorous to seek out a 'christian healer', when it is Christ we should be seeking out..
but the bible does say to lay on hands and pray for the sick.. and when the early christians did this, miracles happened..

as far as the word of knowledge is concerned, you've bought it up quite a few times, with a certian context of somebody being ordered up the front..
would you like to share your personal experience, it seems you have had a case of spiritual abuse in this area before, i can almost feel the scars..
the bible does say that the gift of prophecy is under the control of the prophet and sometimes we aren't so wise in how we deal with things.. sometimes God gives us a word, to pray about, or for ourselves, and we blurt it out in the most unoppertune and unwise time..

but as i said before with the healing thing.. there can be dangers of the tendincy for people to seek a 'word of knowledge' after another 'word of knowledge' from people one after another , when it is God's face we should be seeking, and He has placed much knowledge in the bible already.. such behaviours can border on idolotorous.. i've seen in in my own church, in my own life sometimes in the past..

but men abusing the things of God, doesn't nullify the work of God and the work of the Holy Spirit who leads us in all truth..

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What, that he knows some ex-RCI people and recognised the doctrine ? I don't think so.

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i didn't know much anything about RCI before i prayed... though they have been active in my town, i've spend the most of the last 8 years overseas in china, japan and the US.. It was after i prayed that i seeked out people i knew and asked "does anybody know anything about revival center and what is is etc." of course its possible coincidence that certian distant and vague memories triggered nueron responses.. i can accept that.. my faith and believe in God doesn't rely on the fact i heard from God in this one instance..

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2. I dunno that the location of your keys qualifies as wisdom. I don't doubt God's abolity to bless this situation, but I don't think that's really where God's focus is. I think His focus is where ours should be, on His Kingdom. I think wisdom and knowledge pertains to spiritual things, not natural. Our natural needs are, of course, met, but that is not the be all and end all of salvation.

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The point of prayer is not to care for a person beyond putting their petition before God. Of *course* our care goes beyond the spiritual, as James says, but the point is still that for the purposes of the prayer line, people come out in faith and only God need know the problem.

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Well, it seems to me that there are plenty of unsaved people in Australia. The thought that he does nothing for the kingdom here, but goes off to preach in a foreign land just makes no sense to me. I admire his commitment, but I also believe there is a degree to which he goes for his own glory. Only God can judge that, but either way, he should preach the gospel where he is first and foremost.

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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well the bible says that when one brings a prophetic word, other prophets should remain quite and dicern..

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Actually all in the church should discern ( of course, that's the same thing :-)). More to the point, discernment is ANOTHER 1 Cor 12 gift, different from prophecy. I could say more, but I won't for now.

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its true that many men can fake things, and people can go to excesses.. but look at the excesses of tounges in some pentecostal churches, does that make tounges wrong..

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Not at all, obviously. The difference is that people getting up and saying God told them who is sick with what is always an excess, as is pushing people over in prayer lines, or claiming to cast demons out of Christians.

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I've had times when people have tried to push me over, and i've rebuked them.. other times i have fallen over.. most people i've seen fall over it has been with nobody touching them at the time the recieved tounges..

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If people expect to fall over, what do you think is going to happen ? If you can show it to me in the new testament ( and 1 Cor 12-14 is an obvious place to look ), then I'll accept it's something God does in His church.

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however there is no biblical backing for that..

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They why accept it as being from God ?

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the only falling over in the bible was the opposite, falling FORWARD, in submission to God..but then mideast culture of thenabouts was similar to fareastern culture of today in that respect of bowing.. anyhow i'm not so interested in discussing this sort of thing so much as just tounges, because its challenging the foundations of the gospel which is salvation.. i may talk of the other things at a future date though.. but there is enough material in these tounges chats to last many hours

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Fair enough - too many diversions in these discussions, it's no wonder they go for so long :-)

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as for gifts of healing..
i beleive that people can have gifts to heal.. i've seen people pray for little children and infants who had deformities and seen the power of God release that Child right there before my eyes.. i've seen a toed kid have a toe dissapear..

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I have no doubt that ANY Christian can pray for a sick child and see a miracle, but in that case the Christian provides the faith, but GOD gives the gift of healing to the sick person, and, as I keep saying, requires the agency of no man to do so.

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but there is also truth in the fact that the gift of healing is something we all can have and relate to ourselves.. and it can be idolatorous to seek out a 'christian healer', when it is Christ we should be seeking out..

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Yes, exactly my point.

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but the bible does say to lay on hands and pray for the sick.. and when the early christians did this, miracles happened..

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Amen to that. But we don't do the healing, God does. I suspect we are splitting hairs and essentially agree. Do we agree the gift of healing is given by God to the sick person, and that only God can heal ?

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as far as the word of knowledge is concerned, you've bought it up quite a few times, with a certian context of somebody being ordered up the front..

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That is the context in which is was brought up, explicitly, and also the context I have experienced.

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would you like to share your personal experience, it seems you have had a case of spiritual abuse in this area before, i can almost feel the scars..

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Well, on that front it was more bemusement. The last church I went to, the preacher would wander the stage, annoucning peoples diseases in vague terms until someone came up, push them over and leave them there while he preached. The real tragedy was that when they heard I spoke in tongues, they came to tell me they all had the gift, and that they would be happy to baptise me if I'd asked, and that tongues were good, so long as I did not practice them in RCI, where people had 'no love'. I consider having salvation and keeping it a secret for fear of offending people a good definition of having 'no love'. I guess this gives you a good idea of my perspective. There were plenty of other churches full of christians who did not understand or preach the gospel, that was just the last prior to my being saved.

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the bible does say that the gift of prophecy is under the control of the prophet and sometimes we aren't so wise in how we deal with things..

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Absolutely - and you've hit the nail on the head in that Paul said this precisely to remind us that it is our control for meetings to be run wisely, and in love for God, each other, and the outside world.

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sometimes God gives us a word, to pray about, or for ourselves, and we blurt it out in the most unoppertune and unwise time..

but as i said before with the healing thing.. there can be dangers of the tendincy for people to seek a 'word of knowledge' after another 'word of knowledge' from people one after another , when it is God's face we should be seeking, and He has placed much knowledge in the bible already.. such behaviours can border on idolotorous.. i've seen in in my own church, in my own life sometimes in the past..

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Really, my concern is two fold. First of all, what's to stop me from getting up and announcing that person A needs to pray for their attitude, for personal reasons ? Secondly, I've addressed the issue of people coming forward purely out of faith, but more than that, since when are the gifts about the natural world ?

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but men abusing the things of God, doesn't nullify the work of God and the work of the Holy Spirit who leads us in all truth..

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Amen, obviously.

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i didn't know much anything about RCI before i prayed... though they have been active in my town, i've spend the most of the last 8 years overseas in china, japan and the US.. It was after i prayed that i seeked out people i knew and asked "does anybody know anything about revival center and what is is etc." of course its possible coincidence that certian distant and vague memories triggered nueron responses.. i can accept that.. my faith and believe in God doesn't rely on the fact i heard from God in this one instance..

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Fair enough.

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amen our focus should be on His kingdom, however he blesses us and is concerned with our day to day life, He wants us to abide in Him and share our hearts with HIm, we can share every detail of what we think and feel honestly with HIm because we can trust HIm, David in the pslams was like that to a tee, however he always ended, but affirming God's truths and absolutes over his feelings, but he was a man after God's own heart, who shared his heart with God..
But you are right, the Kingdom should be our focus, not our daily lives and needs, for we can trust God to take after us, i mean if he got the time to count all our hairs, and care about a couple of sparrows falling to the ground.. And also he uses the foolishness of men ,to humble men, and to teach us.. and uses the smallest things in life sometimes to teach us pround truths and build our faiths..

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Exactly my point - of COURSE He cares for us, and we can pray for even such mundane things, but they are not what the gifts of the Spirit are about.

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then what is the point of intercessorary prayer, and mourning with those that mourn etc?

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The point of mourning with those who mourn is compassion. The point of intercessary prayer is to build faith. People I prayed for today could just as easily pray by themselves, but they act out their faith by coming forward instead and I pray a prayer that I hope builds them up in the faith they show before God regarding the issue. They don't need me, all they need is God, but prayer for one another is a principle of the Bible, I believe in part to remind us to care for each other, but also for the reasons I stated. It is never with the thought that having another person pray is necessary.

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there is truth in what you say.. to be evangelical where we live, to be lights wherever we happen to be.. God has placed us where we are today and we should shine here, also with the issue of your dad, it could be his nature to be like that, you probably understand him quite well and can dicern his motives... but that doesn't mean that God hasn't called him there.. when hudson taylor went to CHina and whatsaface went to india.. there were no missions.. there were more than enough people in England to get saved.. thec hurches discouraged them going but God called them and the fruits number many many million now.. every month 1 million chinese people come to know Christ ...

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Perhaps, and that is fine. Each work must be started and peple everywhere need the gospel. By my standards, I'd be surprised if they are getting it, but that is another question. My point is not to be insular or not seek to travel with the word ( Paul certainly did ), but simply that God does not NEED my father in Holland ( the other place he goes, his home country ), or in India. India is perhaps more likely, but in either case it seems to me he is doing what he always does, claiming divine inspiration on the desires of his heart so as to ignore any comment to the contrary ( as in God told me to grow tomatoes, God told me to sell 2nd hand cars, God told me to buy a helicopter so I can go from church to church as a prophet, teaching them. None of these exmaples are made up ). I think it is this aspect that annoys me, not his going back to Holland. Let him go, but let him be honest about it.