General Christian Discussions

Is there any point ? – MeanManInOz

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
I wonder if I should give this forum a rest for a bit. The only replies I seem to be getting all of a sudden are from people who want to reaffirm their views without much reference to the Bible, and people who just plain hate what I say to the point that they merely post to assault me. Not that I mind especially, but I have a new job, C# to learn and not a lot of time, so if the people who are willing to discuss things by responding to the Bible with the Bible are all having a rest from this discussion ( and let's face it, I've presented my views from the Bible, all I can do now is circle them and show that I know the scriptures on which other doctrines are based, and can respond from the Bible as to why they are being misinterpreted ) then I should probably reboot onto my .NET/no internet OS, and get some work done instead.

I'll read this forum tomorrow and if no-one has indicated they want to talk about the Bible, from the Bible, I'll assume that for now I should just give it a rest.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
Just because you say I have not been talking from the Bible does not make it so.

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rowanseymour

Member

Posts: 284
From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Registered: 02-10-2001
Hi

I'll be honest - I am torn between wishing you would give the forum a rest because I worry about the effect your unbiblical beliefs might be having on those who are insecure about their faith, and wishing you would stay because that way we can with Christ try to help you.

It's not that I disagree with your beliefs - I genuinely can't see how they are founded in scripture (I've tried). But even if I knew nothing of the bible I would still like to think that I could see the error in what you preach for 2 reasons - you speak without love - you claim to understand everything and I firmly believe that God's plan in its entirety is beyond human understanding.

If you do go away I would pray that you use that time to offer your beliefs before God. To open the bible and read it not from the perpective of how does this fit what I believe and what I've been told, but what does this mean I should believe.

God Bless you MeanMan.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

Just because you say I have not been talking from the Bible does not make it so.

Please, please do not put words into my mouth, or think that every post I make directly relates to you, and you only. You have quoted some scripture, although you've mostly spoken from conjecture ( why NOT believe the parables are real events, let me tell you a parable ( BTW, did your parable really happen ? If not, does that make it worthless ? )

If I must point fingers, JesusFreak has posted several times with comments but not with reference to the Bible. This does not annoy or frustrate me, it simply indicates that the last person willing to discuss things with me is not committed enough to look them up from the Bible. Yes, you're also a bit slow to do so ( telling me the Bible does not say Jesus only spoke in parables when it does ), but my concern about discussing things with you is that your basis is

1/ your assumptions from the Bible
2/ your assumptions that I am wrong, brainwashed and in a cult

On this basis, it's not surprising you do not really read my posts, or reply to them particularly. You reply at them, as you have done here.

quote:

I'll be honest - I am torn between wishing you would give the forum a rest because I worry about the effect your unbiblical beliefs might be having on those who are insecure about their faith, and wishing you would stay because that way we can with Christ try to help you.

*grin* Given that I was saved from your powerless beliefs ( if I may be blunt for a moment ), I don't see any chance of me being reconverted back to a system that did nothing to help me overcome the things that were destroying my life, or to reject the Gospel which came to me with power, and changed my life totally in an *instant*.

Also if you guys know of any scriptures that actually prove my interpretation of the core scriptures I have quoted to be wrnog, then they've not come out.

quote:

It's not that I disagree with your beliefs - I genuinely can't see how they are founded in scripture (I've tried). But even if I knew nothing of the bible I would still like to think that I could see the error in what you preach for 2 reasons - you speak without love - you claim to understand everything and I firmly believe that God's plan in its entirety is beyond human understanding.

Just because I claim to know *something* about the plan of God does not mean I claim to know everything. How odd that you think this of me. I suppose it must be my fault, although I'm not sure at what point I can be said to 'speak without love' ? Would you say this because I tell people they are not yet Christians ? If so, assuming I am right, would it be love to tell people they are saved when they are not ? Is this what Jesus did ? Seriously, I would like to examine this, because I am accused of it often and I cannot see it as anything but a kneejerk reaction to the naturally confronting nature of my message. However, surely you don't think I say these things in order to make myself better than you ? How can I, when salvation is of God. What motivation could I have to post these things BUT love enough for people as lost as I was to present the Gospel to them as it was to me ?

quote:

If you do go away I would pray that you use that time to offer your beliefs before God. To open the bible and read it not from the perpective of how does this fit what I believe and what I've been told, but what does this mean I should believe.

I will admit that comments like this are a source of much annoyance to me. For starters there is the assumption that I do not read the Bible in this light ( in the past I have learned things from the Bible through these sort of discussions, precisely because it is the Bible alone that I believe without question ), and then there is the further assumption that I am being brainwashed which many here have used to disregard my views, and I believe that this assumption automatically excludes the possiblity of actually reading what I say and taking the attitude that you are recommending.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
> Please, please do not put words into my mouth,

You have implied to me in another thread that I have not read or respond from the Bible.

> You have quoted some scripture, although you've mostly spoken from conjecture.

I have asked questions, some of which I have asked *three times* without a response. Let me ask again:

Why oh why, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, would Christ not only deviate from the pattern of using real events? And not only that, but actually using a doctrine that was the *exact opposite* to what was the truth? Especially when the truth he was trying to convey could have been conveyed *without* using a entirely false doctrine as the cover story?

If Jesus told a parable where worshipping Satan was good, just to make a point, wouldn't you have a problem with that? If there was a parable about how a king rewarded rapists and murderers, but punished a righteous man, that would be OK with you? How about a parable that denied God's role in creation or said that all "tongues" were really Satanic, just to share a deeping meaning? If these are not acceptable, why is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus OK with you if the circumstances of the parable are the exact opposite of truth?

> BTW, did your parable really happen ? If not, does that make it worthless ?

My parable did not really happen, but I am not Christ speaking authoritatively, nor writing inspired scripture. **But the events of the parable were within the realm of possiblity**. It did not contain things that could not have happened.

> Yes, you're also a bit slow to do so ( telling me the Bible does not say Jesus only spoke in parables when it does ),

I was fully aware of the verse, and knew that is what you were referring to. But again, context shows you are wrong in your understanding about the verse. It appears that it is *you* that are the slow one, or not reading before responding. Here's some more questions repeated for you since you side-stepped them earlier: When Jesus said to the sick man in Matt 9:2 "your sins are forgiven thee", was that a parable? Christ talked repeatedly of his second coming - is that just a fable? He said "with God all things are possible" - allegory? He said in John 8:49 "I have not a devil" - just an illustration?

> I don't see any chance of me being reconverted back to a system that did nothing to help me overcome the things that were destroying my life,

Yet AGAIN, systems and doctrines do not change one's life. I praise God that your life was changed *despite* these things.

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MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

Why oh why, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, would Christ not only deviate from the pattern of using real events?

At this point I gave up in disgust at your desire to irrationally claim that the parables are Jesus retelling things that actually happened.

quote:

And not only that, but actually using a doctrine that was the *exact opposite* to what was the truth? Especially when the truth he was trying to convey could have been conveyed *without* using a entirely false doctrine as the cover story?

FWIW, Abrahams bosom represents the promisies of Abraham, and the parable is principally about Israel and Judah. It is NOT about how rich people will go to hell and poor people are saved, that karma be restored.

quote:

If Jesus told a parable where worshipping Satan was good, just to make a point, wouldn't you have a problem with that? If there was a parable about how a king rewarded rapists and murderers, but punished a righteous man, that would be OK with you? How about a parable that denied God's role in creation or said that all "tongues" were really Satanic, just to share a deeping meaning? If these are not acceptable, why is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus OK with you if the circumstances of the parable are the exact opposite of truth?

The problem is the way you choose to interpret it, especially in light of your desire to make a claim about the parables that the Bible does not make.

quote:

My parable did not really happen, but I am not Christ speaking authoritatively, nor writing inspired scripture. **But the events of the parable were within the realm of possiblity**. It did not contain things that could not have happened.

So hang on, Jesus parables may well have meaning which is not diminished by their not being a retelling of actual events ? And for the record, the Bible says there were 10 virgins and THE bridegroom ( singular ) came for them, and rejected five of them for not having oil in their lamps. The parallel is clear. As is the parable of the wedding feast, to which both good and bad were invited, but those who came not clothed in white ( without the Holy Spirit ) were speechless before Him ( because they did not have the ability to pray in the language all Christians are given because 'we know not what to pray for'. )

I can't answer more because my wife needs the phone, I'll address the rest of this post later.


Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
meanman,

i am happy to hear you are willing to work on the 'lack of love'
that people have painfully pointed out.. i appreciate your honest attitude towards it.. its not something we say in response to your beliefs, not at all.. its often because works you have said have been condecending, and harsh.... i'm only now saying because you asked..
now emotions of everybody on this board have become heated and you aren't the only one speaking harsh..

everybody:

Lets remember that Christ loves meanman with a passion and died for him also and lets pray much before we reply in an arguementative way..

GOd:
have your perfect Will done and your kingdom come in all our our hearts , right here, right now, amen..

meanman:
as you are learning C#, lets chat sometimes.. i'm doing much work in that currently... and as for replying biblically , i will sometime stay to my promise to reply to you.. i need time though as i am busy and want to do you and God justice..

some of the other people who aren't replying from scripture so much. it doesn't mean that they don't take scripture seriously.. just they can't afford the time to write a decent response.. especially since this has gone on back and forth for some time...

everybody:
remember love and patience..


Karl

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
> At this point I gave up in disgust at your desire to irrationally claim that the parables are Jesus retelling things that actually happened.

And yet you *still* have not answered the question. Why is that?

> It is NOT about how rich people will go to hell and poor people are saved, that karma be restored.

And yet you *still* have not answered the question. Why is that?

> The problem is the way you choose to interpret it, especially in light of your desire to make a claim about the parables that the Bible does not make.

And yet you *still* have not answered the question. Why is that?

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Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
brian,

our right is not against flesh and blood but against principalities
and powers..

if he is indeed blinded by spiritual deception,
no amount of argueing or reasoning is going to do anything..

i'd ask you to do a different approach for the week..
it will also help you love him and Christ loves him
that would be to pray for him..
pray that the holy soil would toil the soil of his heart and prepare it
to receive the word of God, so that the birds won't pluck out any seeds that we can sow, nor will weeds choke out the message , but his heart would be fertile soil that would bear much fruit..

meanman, if you feel my above statement is full of assumption and totally annoying.. please don't get annoyed.. for it we are praying for you (and not cursing you) what harm is it doing you? , actually it is good for you, and good for us because we are getting our heart attitudes right before God in the process..

Karl

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
You're right klumsy. I will adjust my approach here.

Brian

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MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

am happy to hear you are willing to work on the 'lack of love'
that people have painfully pointed out.. i appreciate your honest attitude towards it.. its not something we say in response to your beliefs, not at all.. its often because works you have said have been condecending, and harsh.... i'm only now saying because you asked..

If that's the way I come across then I am sorry. One reason I am thinking of giving it a rest is that I *am* saying the same things over and over, and at times that can be a little frustrating. I don't expect people to believe it because I say it, but the rebuttals that come usually are answered from the same scriptures I have quoted, which makes it a little circular for me.

quote:

as you are learning C#, lets chat sometimes.. i'm doing much work in that currently... and as for replying biblically , i will sometime stay to my promise to reply to you.. i need time though as i am busy and want to do you and God justice..

Cool - I would love to do that, when I get time to move beyond Hello World. ;-)

quote:

some of the other people who aren't replying from scripture so much. it doesn't mean that they don't take scripture seriously.. just they can't afford the time to write a decent response.. especially since this has gone on back and forth for some time...

I know that, I just meant if they don't have time to do the discussion justice it's probably not worth my making time.

quote:

And yet you *still* have not answered the question. Why is that?

PLEASE read my post, I answered you re: Lazarus and the rich man. It was my main reason for posting again.

quote:

And yet you *still* have not answered the question. Why is that?

I have - it's not about heaven at all, it's not about individual people at all, it's about Israel and Judah. In that sense the parable is an ideal symbolism of the promises of God through Abraham and does not present anything that is unscriptural.

quote:

meanman, if you feel my above statement is full of assumption and totally annoying.. please don't get annoyed.. for it we are praying for you (and not cursing you) what harm is it doing you? , actually it is good for you, and good for us because we are getting our heart attitudes right before God in the process..

A better prayer would be for all involved instead of just me, but I see the motive behind the prayer is good. I'm pleased someone else has stepped in, the heat between me and Brian is yet another thing ( and probably the biggest ) that is troubling me.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
yes,
a prayer for all involved is good..
for brian i just had a sentence, and he has seemed to heed it and accept it. We can all learn much about how to deal with other people, how to deal with differences within christianity (when the difference isn't so important such as the state of the dead) and dealing with foundational beliefs as well, and about dealing with love..
i pray that we all here learn and grow through this..
I am not saying this to make light of the the serousness of your alternative gospel. but Iregardless of that, God loves us all..
and we need his wisdom to proceed here.. for our arguments haven't gotten us anywhere.

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.