Now that I've pre-offended almost everyone here, I guess I'd better get my Bible out :0)

jOHN 3:1 Now a certain man, a Pharisee1 named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council,2 3:2 came to Jesus3 at night4 and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs5 that you do unless God is with him." 3:3 Jesus replied,6 "I tell you the solemn truth,7 unless a person is born from above,8 he cannot see the kingdom of God."9 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother's womb and be born a second time, can he?"10

3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the solemn truth,11 unless a person is born of water and spirit,12 he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh,13 and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 3:7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must all14 be born from above.'15 3:8 The wind16 blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."17

3:9 Nicodemus replied,18 "How can these things be?"19 3:10 Jesus answered,20 "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you don't understand these things?21 3:11 I tell you the solemn truth,22 we speak about what we know and testify about what we have seen, but23 you people24 do not accept our testimony.25 3:12 If I have told you people26 about earthly things and you don't believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?27 3:13 No one28 has ascended29 into heaven except the one who descended from heaven-the Son of Man.30 3:14 Just as31 Moses lifted up the serpent32 in the wilderness,33 so must the Son of Man be lifted up,34 3:15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."35

3:16 For this is the way36 God loved the world: he gave his one and only37 Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish38 but have eternal life.39 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world,40 but that the world should be saved through him. 3:18 The one who believes in him is not condemned.41 The one who does not believe has been condemned42 already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only43 Son of God. 3:19 Now this is the basis for judging:44 that the light has come into the world and people45 loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. 3:20 For everyone who does evil deeds hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed. 3:21 But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, so that it may be plainly evident that his deeds have been done in God.46

16sn The same Greek word, pneuvmato" (pneumatos), may be translated "wind" or "spirit."

My footnote - it is overwhelmingly translated 'Spirit' in the NT.

Not only that, but the word sound MEANS a voice, it is phonos, as in phonetic. Finally the wind does not blow where it chooses, and you CAN tell from where it comes and where it goes. Jesus spoke only in parables, and this is one scripture that my detractors will essentially say doesn't really mean anything concrete. I say Jesus was speaking in parables, as He always did, in this case about the fact that everyone who is 'born of the Spirit' will speak in tongues, a voice which is heard, but not understood.

Mark . 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned. 16:17 These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;10 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands, and whatever poison they drink will not harm them;11 they will place their hands on the sick and they will be well." 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 16:20 They went out and proclaimed everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the word through the accompanying signs.]]12

Some of these things are promises of protection and should be taken as such in light with Jesus' telling us not to test God. However, tongues alone in this list is not a defence mechanism - even prayer for the sick requires we first become sick, but nothing is required for us to need to be able to speak in tongues beyond that God said we would.

I deliberately quoted all of John 3 above, because the earlier context is often missed when the latter half is quoted. The 'gospel' I have been exposed to in the past pretty much revolved around Christ dying for our sins, repentance meaning to be 'truly sorry' for the past and to say a 'prayer of salvation' to God, accepting Jesus into ones heart, and that this meant salvation, because it showed 'true belief'. I say that the scriptures which say to believe are usually written to the saved, or as in John 3 expounded on as much as possible prior to the Gospel age. The Bible never records a 'prayer of salvation' situation, and repentance is about looking to take on the new, not dwelling on the old.

Of course, it's possible that I am wrong, in which case every person after Acts 2 wo believed in Jesus was therefore saved. If God makes a promise it must always stand, because God cannot fail and cannot lie.

Acts . 8:5 Philip went down to the main city of Samaria28 and began proclaiming29 the Christ30 to them. 8:6 The crowds were paying attention with one mind to what Philip said,31 as they heard and saw the miraculous signs32 he was performing. 8:7 For unclean spirits,33 crying with loud shrieks, were coming out of many who were possessed,34 and many paralyzed and lame people were healed; 8:8 so there was35 great joy36 in that city.

8:9 Now in that city was a man named Simon, who had been practicing magic37 and amazing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great. 8:10 All the people,38 from the least to the greatest, paid close attention to him, saying, "This man is the power of God that is called 'Great.'"39 8:11 And they paid close attention to him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he was proclaiming the good news about the kingdom of God40 and the name of Jesus Christ,41 they began to be baptized,42 both men and women. 8:13 Even Simon himself believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to43 Philip constantly, and when he saw the signs and great miracles that were occurring, he was amazed.44

8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word45 of God, they sent46 Peter and John to them. 8:15 These two47 went down and prayed for them so that they would receive the Holy Spirit. 8:16 (For the Spirit48 had not yet come upon49 any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)50 8:17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on the Samaritans,51 and they received the Holy Spirit.52

8:18 Now Simon, when he saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, offered them money, 8:19 saying, "Give me this power53 too, so that everyone I place my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit."

This story clearly indicates a number of things.

1/ People who in Samaria had believed the Gospel, been baptised in water and seen healings and miracles did not have the Holy Spirit ( which means they were not saved ).
2/ Simon, a man used to playing tricks to impress people, was so impressed when he saw the Spirit being poured out that he offered money to be able to do the same. The simple fact that believers were unsaved proves that some physical event was expected in order to know that people had become saved, because clearly belief, baptism and miracles present were not convincing, in fact they KNEW despite those things that these people were not saved. However, the fact that Simon saw something he was willing to give money for again indicates that something was happening beyond people believing what they were told and having a warm feeling in their hearts.

Acts 19:1 While1 Apollos was in Corinth, Paul went through the inland2 regions3 and came to Ephesus. He4 found some disciples there5 19:2 and said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"6 They replied,7 "No, we have not even8 heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

Paul;s first question to these people was 'have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed. He didn't know they had not heard of the Holy Spirit, but he knew that they were believers, and he knew that belief does not mean a person has the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and we are all witnesses of it.62 2:33 So then, exalted63 to the right hand64 of God, and having received65 the promise of the Holy Spirit66 from the Father, he has poured out67 what you both see and hear.

Peter identified the Holy Spirit being poured out for the first time with what they saw and hear - people speaking in tongues.

2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized77 in the name of Jesus Christ78 for79 the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This verse indicates that baptism is required. It could be taken to mean that belief/baptism means we have the Holy Spirit, but Acts 8 shows this is not the case, Peter is telling us the two things we need to do in order to ask God to do the third, not that it happens with no evidence ( as opposed to the event that Peter is speaking about ).

Luke 11:1 Now1 Jesus2 was praying in a certain place. When3 he stopped, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John4 taught5 his disciples." 11:2 So he said to them, "When you pray,6 say:
Father,7 may your name be honored,8
may your kingdom come.9
11:3 Give us each day our daily bread,10
11:4 and forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins11 against us.
And do not lead us into temptation."12

11:5 Then13 he said to them, "Suppose one of you14 has a friend, and you go to him15 at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread,16 11:6 because a friend of mine has stopped here while on a journey,17 and I have nothing to set before18 him.' 11:7 Then19 he will reply20 from inside, 'Do not bother me. The door is already shut, and my children are with me21 in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything.'22 11:8 I tell you, even though the man inside23 will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of the first man's24 sheer persistence25 he will get up and give him whatever he needs.

11:9 "So26 I tell you: Ask,27 and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door28 will be opened for you. 11:10 For everyone who asks29 receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks, the door30 will be opened. 11:11 What father among you, if your31 son asks for32 a fish, will give him a snake33 instead of a fish? 11:12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?34 11:13 If you then, although you are35 evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit36 to those who ask him!"

Jesus was asked how to pray and He provided a model prayer and went on to tell a parable. What does the parable have to do with the question ? It's about asking for something, and continuing to ask because we really want it. He contrasts us to God and says that God will give us the Holy Spirit if we ask.

John 4:24 God is spirit,53 and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

The ONLY Bible definition of worship/prayer in the Spirit is speaking in tongues. Jesus was still answering the question, if we want to know how to pray we need to ask God for the Holy Spirit, who will give us the words 'for we know not what to pray for, as we ought'. The words that Jesus used for ask, seek and knock in the Greek mean to keep on doing those things until we get what we want. God does not hold back His Spirit, but sometimes people need to ask a few times in order to get their heart to a place of being able to accept God's gift.

I have tried to stick to scriptures that are about salvation, there are a ton more in the post Acts books, but they are not written to tell people how to be saved and as such when the writer says something based on what he expects all the hearers to know, it can sometimes be a little esoteric ( although how anyone can deny 1 Cor 26 and 31 is beyond me, but I'm sure we'll get there )....

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Victory Infinitum

the bible also says speaking in tounges of men and angels..
tounges is a supernatural gift from God for the purpose of edification.

meanman,

however it is not neccisary unto salvation..
meanman thanks for posting this article though..
when i have time i will do your effort justice and do a decent reply..

also as far as know knowing that you are a member of the revival centre,
(this is something that God impressed upon my heart when i was praying about our discussions on CCN, previously i knew barely anything about the revival centre, but when God pressed it on my heart, i asked around in church and there were quite a few people who used to go there..

as far as your fear of being prejuded as a cult because of the "label"..
i dicerned that your beliefs where cultic well before God revealed to me why, just from what you have said in these forums..

I don't know how to proceed, but i do want to tell you that even though we differ and i believe your beliefs are very dangerous and i want to point out to others here that they aren't christian, i accept you and its not a matter of you being the enemy etc..

I need to pray more with God, to search my own motives and desires before i do a long reply to this post.

with love,

Karl.

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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however it is not neccisary unto salvation..
meanman thanks for posting this article though..
when i have time i will do your effort justice and do a decent reply..

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Fair enough :-)

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as far as your fear of being prejuded as a cult because of the "label"..
i dicerned that your beliefs where cultic well before God revealed to me why, just from what you have said in these forums..

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This is what scares me. 'God revealed to me why your beliefs are cultic' is just plain wierd to me, and it precludes any discussion because you presume I am in a cult and therefore how can I expect you to consider my vies.

IMO God 'impressed' upon you that I go to revival centres because we are most known for believing all Christians speak in tongues, and you know some ex-members. My dad does this all the time, assigns divine intervention to his ideas or recollections.

I didn't realise you were in NZ - we are quite active there. I keep assuming everyone else is in the US, for some reason. I'd like a definition of cultic, if I may.

My concern was more that there are a lot of sites that lie about the church I go to, for example one thing I read the other day was that we refuse our children sex education, I've read that we control people, take their money, refuse access to family members not in the church or who have left the church. All of this is not true, in any shape or form and if I said where I go and you did a search for RCI, you'd find this sort of stuff and be forgiven for thinking it might be true. I'd rather talk about the Bible than argue about lies other people have told to people who have no real way of knowing if they are true or not.

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I don't know how to proceed, but i do want to tell you that even though we differ and i believe your beliefs are very dangerous and i want to point out to others here that they aren't christian, i accept you and its not a matter of you being the enemy etc..

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I hate to refer to personal experience instead of the Bible, but as an aside ( and accepting that my authority is the Bible and not my experience ), assuming for a moment that we are wrong and only a subset of Christians will speak in tongues - why is it that the vast mjority of people we pray with recieve the gift ?

I could also refer to the fact that my testimony is that I asked God to show me the right place to go, and I started coming across Revival Centres in all sorts of ways and only didn't go for a year or so because friends told me not to. However, personal experience and even denomination are irrelevant to me, all that matters is the Bible, discussing what it says, making sure I am doing it, and hoping others are too.

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I need to pray more with God, to search my own motives and desires before i do a long reply to this post.

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I would presume your motive would remain to talk about the Bible, and seek to follow God. If the fact that I belong to a particular denomination makes my opinions about the Bible irrelevant to you, then we shouldn't bother. In my opinion who you know and what you've heard is really of no import. What I say is either true from the Bible, or it isn't.

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I speak French and a tad of German. I think when it means 'speaking in tongues' is merely foriegn languages. The knowledge was from God.

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As Karl has said, it's the tongues of men and angels. The idea of tongues as a tool for spreading the Gospel is not reasonable. Paul had to write letters to the churches to tell them the right way to go, what would be the use of a tool that left churches of people unable to recieve that sort of support ? If that's what tounges is, why don't we see it today ?

I have purposely stayed out of these discussions to this point - mainly for a lack of time to do such research or even just play around all that much... (college and my projects take soooo much time )

I am sure that I am a christian - but I have not spoken in tongues.. this is something I am seriously looking into at this point (not because of you, just other stuff ) I will probably some time soon be doing a study on tongues, and things of the spirit ... While I am not a new christian - I do feel like one, possibly because my family situation had been more restrictive until recently. I now do understand much better so many of the things I had struggled to accept in the past.

I will note that at times I have found your posts to be more condemning than encouraging - however I don't mean this to make you feel bad - just because it reminds me too much of people I know all too well ...

I respect your views and opinions but in the end I intend to receive my opinions from God, and to be right with him, regardless of what he says to do

God Bless

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Stephen / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

i thought that you'd go that way about my impressions from God, but fair enough. I am not claiming that that is doctrine or anything.. but
to clear it up.. BEFORE i felt that way i virtually new nothing about revival center, it wasn't until after i felt/had 2 and 2 click/got an impression from God or whatever that i did the research..

also my belief that your "interpretation of these bible scriptures" is cultic wasn't based on knowing what you were invloved or reading any internet sites, no prejudice from that.. just on what you were saying full stop (or period for the americans .

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If the fact that I belong to a particular denomination makes my opinions about the Bible irrelevant to you, then we shouldn't bother. In my opinion who you know and what you've heard is really of no import. What I say is either true from the Bible, or it isn't.

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its not so irrevant.. what if someone here claimed to be a christian budhist, or christian witch etc etc.. they could argue the same point.
i've heard the case for reincarnation from the bible in more convincing arguments than yours for 'salvation by tounges'... history is full of people twisting scriptures for their own cause (i'm probably guitly of that myself). and i believe from my recent research that your arguments have been "the party line" so to speak evcen before i knew anything much about revival centre, its quite similar to how my students in China would give the party line, or some of my american collegues give me the "george bush line"..
having said this however i was saying i need to pray aboutmy motives, whether it is wrong or right to point out the flaws in your faith (whether my reasons are more to be argumentative and right, or whether its a genuine christian care and love for you, and that the people here wouldn't be decieved by tempting arguments from the central gospel of Jesus Christ.. so i need to submit myself to Christ in prayer and get his wisdom.)
having said all this..
i do respect your efforts in doing the post and will diligently and prayerfully write a response..

but i don't want my response to be out of prejudice , my human flesh, ego, argumentativeness or such like flesh attributes.. so i need to deal with my heart first, so that i can be open, honest , vulnerable... speak my convictions from the bible clearly, but in love, so its a blessing rather than a curse, be willing to be courageous if needed, rather than being a "yes man" sort of wimp.. i'd rather be a "yes" man and have no conflict, but i believe there is spiritual warfare going on in this forums right now. But you meanman are not the enemy, you fully believe what you believe, and that is your choice, our battle is against powers and principalities not against flesh and blood..

I pray that the through this we all grow in our understanding of the bible and in our personal relationship with Christ..

Karl..

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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I am sure that I am a christian - but I have not spoken in tongues.. this is something I am seriously looking into at this point (not because of you, just other stuff ) I will probably some time soon be doing a study on tongues, and things of the spirit ...

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It's always dangerous to be sure of things, unless it's from the Bible. I was once sure of the same thing, for many years.

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I will note that at times I have found your posts to be more condemning than encouraging - however I don't mean this to make you feel bad - just because it reminds me too much of people I know all too well ...

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Possibly, I've met them too ( does anyone here know who Steve Winter is ), and I cannot help that. The Word of God IS a two-edged sword, and while I will try to handle it carefully, I cannot change that my message is that you are not currently a Christian. Of course the reason I bother to keep posting is to tell you that you CAN be.

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I respect your views and opinions but in the end I intend to receive my opinions from God, and to be right with him, regardless of what he says to do

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Hear, hear. The onus is on everyone, me included, to prove what I am saying from the Bible. The onus is on God to back up His Word with signs following.

I have spent a few years on Usenet, I doubt anything you have to say will be new to me, or will upset my faith. If it does, if you can prove from the Bible that I've got it wrong, you'd be doing me a disservice not to do so.

I understood that you thought I was in a cult before you knew where I go, my denominational choice was not a secret, I just thought it irrelevant and also the subject of misinformation. We see a lot of excess in Pentecost ( people being pushed over, demon talk, the Toronto 'blessing' ), and we prefer to be seperate, so we don't participate in any inter denominational stuff. People assume that means we think we're the only ones saved ( we don't ), and react by calling us a cult. Then people who leave us, often after only short periods, are taken at their word and regarded as experts in how the church works, resulting in the misinformation I previously referred to.

But all of that does not matter. What matters is that we are two people who both want to follow God, disagree on what that means, and both look to the Bible to provide the answer. I'll be here when you've had time to reply, if you decide to.

i focus on the spiritual health and balance of my life and also of churches.

and yes, lets talk about the bible, however i believe without God taking out spiritual blindness (you could argue the same thing back to me though), no amount of human reasoning etc will move you.. that was clear when kyrler and me went through the greek and the cultural context of the corinthians scripture... however i do not want to do you a disservice and will pray that God's Will be done, his Kingdom come at CCN as well as in Heaven.. and that that his holy spirit will guide us in truth, and that lieing and decieving spirits will be bound, and God will be soverign, and the light of the scriptures will illunimate the truth and all with see the truth.. including yourself and meanman..

as far as labeling you or your denomination a cult..
the fact that you believce people aren't christians because they don't speak in tounges in enough in my opinion to say that that is cultic
and i believc many people have pointed out scriptures clear enough here to prove that, but after i go away and pray and sort out my own motives and make sure its not just a personality conflict between me and you.. i will prayerful and diligently reply..

God Bless
Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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the fact that you believce people aren't christians because they don't speak in tounges in enough in my opinion to say that that is cultic
and i believc many people have pointed out scriptures clear enough here to prove that, but after i go away and pray and sort out my own motives and make sure its not just a personality conflict between me and you.. i will prayerful and diligently reply

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I recall some people trying to prove that certain verses do not mean what they say, but I believe that when the Bible says that we can all prophecy, for example, that it means that. As you say, spiritual blindess, like 'you're in a cult' is just a label that can stop us from considering another persons point of view.

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Final Hour Team Leader
Neuron Interactive

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I believe that you don't have to be a member of a particular denomination/church or speak in tounges to be a Christian.

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Amen to the first half - God is not interested in denominations created by men, but His delineation - those who are His, not some particular pastors.

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I am a Christian and I do speak in tounges. I was a Christian for years before I was fill with the Holy Spirit and started to speak in tounges. Alot of Christian don't do it and they are still good Christians and in some cases closer to God than alot of Pentacostals.

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First of all how do you know you were a Christian, and that others without the Holy Spirit are ? Is it by judging their works, or can you see their hearts ? A lot of sincere people live good lives apart from Christ but asribing His name to themselves. They are not evil, or deciebtful, only decieved. It is a great danger to judge things by our senses instead of the Word of God.

How do you know someone is a Christian ? Refer to Acts 8 as quoted above and ensure your reply fits in with it.

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People who do speak in tounges must have balance. We must also have the word of God too.

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Amen, totally. too many who speak in tongues live lawless lives, doing all sorts of things in Jesus' name that He plain didn't say.

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I believe the definition of a Christian is: Someone who believes Jesus Christ died and rose again and is relying totally on Jesus to forgive him(or her). I would consider anyone who believes that something more must be done(including speaking in tounges) to be saved cultic.

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And so we come to the magic word again. I can see anything I say is not going to be even read by people here, because of the 'c' word. Can't we just look at the Bible for a moment and forget about labelling people, which only happens so they can be disregarded ?

Which other gifts from 1 Cor 12 do you consider optional ? Not faith apparently, how about wisdom, or healing, or discernment ?

FWIW, nothing more than faith in Jesus must be done by us, but faith in Him includes faith in the promise that HE will give the gift of tongues for 'the manifestation of the Spirit is given to all'.

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No. Not every christian speaks in tongues. It has never been a requirement for salvation. Those guidelines are found in Romans 10:9-10.

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So a book written to saved people is more specific than the record of words spoken to the unsaved ?

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A good example is the story in Acts where peter goes to corneilus house and tells him of the Holy spirit. They believed in Jesus, but had not recieved the Holy spirit until Peter began to preach to them.

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You're wrong - you're thinking maybe in part of Acts 19. They believed in *GOD* and were to hear about Jesus. How did they know they had the Spirit in both cases ?

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So you can see speaking in tongues is just the inital evidence of having recieved the baptism of the Holy spirit.

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Correct. Any man having not the Spirit is none of His.

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Every Christain has the holy spirit inside them, Just not every christian has the Infilling or baptism of the holy spirit. GS out.

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Please show from the Bible that God with-holds the Holy Spirit from some Christians.

--D-SIPL

<Krylar ducks behind a rock and awaits the barrage!>

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Final Hour Team Leader
Neuron Interactive

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haven't we had this thread about a million times before *sigh*.....

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Yes, I was asked to start it again....

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Okay...okay...I can't resist. What about people who are completely mute? Are they all non-Christians?

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Only if God is unable to heal. *grin*

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I don't have time to find the exact place but the place in acts where the disciples ask some people(that are saved) about being filled with the Holy Ghost and they say that they don't know anything about it(basically).

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You've read Acts 19 and assumed that believer = someone who is saved. Acts 8 proves this is not the case, as does Acts 19 for that matter.

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Also there is no scriptural reason to believe that you must speak in tounges to be saved.

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I've presented scriptures here that prove otherwise.

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I've presented scriptures here that prove otherwise.

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Sorry but I still don't think you have. I gotta get in the bed. Bye

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Final Hour Team Leader
Neuron Interactive

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Final Hour Team Leader
Neuron Interactive

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Sorry but I'm not seeing where Acts 8 or Acts 19 says that a believer != saved person. In the context in which it is used in those passages it does mean a saved person.

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So you're saying people who don't even know there is a Holy Spirit can be saved ? People who have not recieved the Holy Spirit into their lives are saved ? By belief ? Are the demons saved ?

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I just was thinking about the thief on the cross(the one that got saved).... He couldn't of been filled with the Holy Ghost or spoke in tounges because the day of Pentacost had not yet come. He was a Christian though....

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If the thief was saved, prior to salvation being possible and without having to obey the Gospel, then it was by special dispensation, by Christ in person. Therefore the same leave to ignore what the Bible says to people in the Gospel age only to those to whom Jesus also personally appears to give this permission.

I think so. Scripture does not say that knowledge of the existence of the Holy Spirit is a requirement for salvation.

> People who have not recieved the Holy Spirit into their lives are saved ?

Whether they know about it or not, people recieve the Holy Spirit into their lives when they are saved.

> Are the demons saved ?

No, because Jesus did not die for demons, he died for mankind.

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> So you're saying people who don't even know there is a Holy Spirit can be saved ?
I think so. Scripture does not say that knowledge of the existence of the Holy Spirit is a requirement for salvation.

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You go on to say:

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> People who have not recieved the Holy Spirit into their lives are saved ?

Whether they know about it or not, people recieve the Holy Spirit into their lives when they are saved.

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In that case, why is it that people who believed in Acts 8 had not recieved the Holy Spirit, and how did they know, if indeed people can recieve the Holy Spirit and not know it ? Indeed in Acts 19, why did Paul not correct those from Ephesus, instead of praying with them, and they recieved the Spirit, speaking in tongues, by saying 'even if you've not heard of the Holy Spirit, you have it'. Obviously from Paul's question in Acts 19, believe does not mean we have the Holy Spirit, and having the Holy Spirit is something we know has happened.

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I believe "receiving the Holy Spirit" has two meanings, depending on context. One is the indwelling at the moment of salvation, and one is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that can happen later. The people in Acts 8 and 19 were saved because they believed and had the Holy Spirit in one sense (Eph 1:13), but had not yet received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

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If this is so, then Acts 8 at least puts the imperative on this second recieving of the Spirit. So this means when Paul says 'of His fulness you have all recieved', he is speaking to the people he wrote to, and not to all Christians ? There is no scripture which actually makes this contrast between recieving the Spirit a bit, and recieving the Spirit completely.

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I believe this because of the dozens of verses that say that believing on the Lord is how we are saved. I know you disagree with what "believing" means (and so you must, to cling to your tongues view), but that's my answer.

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So if I grow up in Brazil and believe that huge statue they have IS Jesus, I will be saved because I believe in Jesus ? What about the KKK, they believe Jesus hates black people. They believe in Jesus, they are committed to their belief - are they saved ?

It's obvious that saying we are saved by our belief in Jesus is an incomplete statement, and cannot be used to disregard more specific statements in the Bible, which do not attack the more vague scriptures, they simply expand on them by explaining what Jesus said, so we know what to believe if we are to believe in Jesus at all.

Jesus said 'why say you love me and do not the things I say'. He obviously wants more than mental assent, which is what belief means.

One reason I am on the back foot somewhat in these discussions is that I have nailed my colours to the mast, so to speak, and the people who discuss things with me have not made as clear a statement of belief, leaving them free to jump from one thing to another, without having to pause and discuss any of their views when I respond to them from the Bible.

Don't get me wrong, my views are obviously the central point of discussion, I'd just like to pause to make you as accountable for your views as I am for mine, and as required to defend them from the Bible, or retract them if that is untenable.

I am not talking about receiving parts. I am talking about the Holy Spirit doing a different work.

The apostles received the Holy Spirit *before* Acts 2! (see John 20:22). Were they saved before Acts 2? If yes, one can be saved before receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. If no, the verses that talk about the unsaved not having the Holy Spirit are false.

> So if I grow up in Brazil and believe that huge statue they have IS Jesus, I will be saved because I believe in Jesus ? What about the KKK, they believe Jesus hates black people. They believe in Jesus, they are committed to their belief - are they saved ?

I believe that one must believe in the right Jesus (ie. not a statue, a fire-hydrant, etc.). As for who is saved and who isn't, I would not presume to make that judgement as I cannot really know what a person believes in his heart. I do believe that there are some who believe in the right Jesus but through seriously erroneous doctrines still commit sin in the name of Christ. I do not know whether they are saved, and it's not my call to make in the first place (thank God).

> He obviously wants more than mental assent, which is what belief means.

I agree. He does want more. But this "more" cannot save us. By grace are we saved through faith. Period. Extra stuff is great and should be striven for, but you're already in. I have that faith, and not you or anyone else can tell me I don't.

> I'd be interested to hear if in light of Acts 8 and 19 you still believe people can have the Holy Spirit even if they do not know it, and if so how you defend this view in light of these scriptures.
> ...
> I'd just like to pause to make you as accountable for your views as I am for mine, and as required to defend them from the Bible, or retract them if that is untenable.

Fair enough:

I've already mentioned Eph 1:13, and alluded to several other passages like Eph 2:5-8. Rom 10:9-10 says "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." That passage expounds on what "belief" is necessary: in the heart that God raised him from the dead. I fully believe this in my heart, and have confessed it with my mouth.

1 Cor 12:3b says "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." I say Jesus is the Lord. Gal 4:6 says "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." His Spirit is in my heart crying Abba Father. 1 John 4:2 says "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" My spirit confessed that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

1 Cor 1:18 says "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." To me, the preaching of the cross is the power of God, and not foolishness.

1 Cor 2:12-14 says "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." If I was not saved, if I have not received the spirit which is of God, these spiritual things would seem foolish to me. But they do not. 1 Cor 12:4 says "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." Yes, one of those gifts is tongues. But if I have a different gift, I still have the Spirit.

I cling to these promises. And I tire of groups like yours that try to come up with explanations as to why these passages mean something other than what they plainly say.

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The apostles received the Holy Spirit *before* Acts 2! (see John 20:22). Were they saved before Acts 2? If yes, one can be saved before receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. If no, the verses that talk about the unsaved not having the Holy Spirit are false.

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Before Acts 2 the Spirit was given to people on a temporary basis, to empower them to do God's work. Jesus often spoke to the disciples about when the Spirit was to come, and how He had to die for this to happen. Peter in Acts 11 refers to Acts 2 as the beginning, not any event that happened while Jesus was alive.

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I cling to these promises. And I tire of groups like yours that try to come up with explanations as to why these passages mean something other than what they plainly say.

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The verse in 1 Cor 12 is about tongues - it does not mean if I get someone to repeat the words 'Jesus is Lord' they have the Spirit. I get kinda tired of people who cling to some scriptures but ignore others. You say you have a different gift - does that make the 1 Cor 12 list of gifts mutually exclusive ? What Christians do you know without faith ? Who cannot pray to be healed ? Who have no need of wisdom or knowledge or discernment ?

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2Samuel C6 V14, Psalm C149-150, Ecclesiastes C9 V5, Ezekiel C2-3&C39, Matthew C6 V25, Luke C19 V11, 1Corinthians C13, Galatians C5 V22, Ephesians C3 V9, Colossians C1 V16, 1Peter C3 V3, Revelations C10

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

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Wack thing came to mind just now. I know I dont post here much anymore. Many X memmbers tell me I should leave. I still come by from time to time thow. Anyways I had something maybe you could exsplain to the rest of the board and maybe to others who may be reading. If you have to speak toungs to go to Hevan then dosnt that mean all mutes are going strait to hell? I mean what about people who cant here or see or speak? G that sure does condem alot of people for no other reason the phiscal. Just a thought and a ponder. I already have my mind made up thow on the subject.

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I dunno how deaf/blind people come into this, but your statement regarding the dumb is based on the assumption that God is powerless. I have more faith in God than that, and I formulate my doctrines from the Bible, not from assumptions I might make, or hypothetical situations that might be formed to help prove any view I may have.

Look the person cant hear, cant speak, and cant see. This person is tought how to comunicat threw tuch. Im sure that there is a Christian person like this out there somewhere. Or so they may say (tuch to tell others) that they are Christian. Are they condemnd becase they cannot speak in toungs? Its a simple qustion. Yes or no? Do they go to hell or hevan? Based off of what you keep yelling is the gosple truth they are going to hell and so am I.

Oh well guess this is beyond comprhention. I may come back... not sure on how busy I will be for the comming week. I will try.

Ta Ta and if you come up with a perfect answer to cover it all Biblicly I would love to see it. As long as it dosnt take 15 hours to read Some of the post here have gotton so ridiculissly big I dont even bother coming here becase looking at the text hurts my head. Hens I didnt read much of what is posted above.

Neather did Death so it would seam.

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2Samuel C6 V14, Psalm C149-150, Ecclesiastes C9 V5, Ezekiel C2-3&C39, Matthew C6 V25, Luke C19 V11, 1Corinthians C13, Galatians C5 V22, Ephesians C3 V9, Colossians C1 V16, 1Peter C3 V3, Revelations C10

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2Samuel C6 V14, Psalm C149-150, Ecclesiastes C9 V5, Ezekiel C2-3&C39, Matthew C6 V25, Luke C19 V11, 1Corinthians C13, Galatians C5 V22, Ephesians C3 V9, Colossians C1 V16, 1Peter C3 V3, Revelations C10

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Wow that was a dippy response. A hipotheticul situwation? Who are you kidding? There are people like this and as you so frequently point out we have to speak in toungs to be saved. So that means that they are not saved by your standerds. Your avoding the issue at hand here.

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Not at all - your hypothetical is that God would be unable to restore speech to such a person.

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Look the person cant hear, cant speak, and cant see. This person is tought how to comunicat threw tuch. Im sure that there is a Christian person like this out there somewhere.

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If so, then that is a VERY special case, how would anyone preach the Gospel to such a person ? How does this hypothetical person affect your need to do what the Bible says ?

quote:

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Or so they may say (tuch to tell others) that they are Christian. Are they condemnd becase they cannot speak in toungs? Its a simple qustion. Yes or no? Do they go to hell or hevan? Based off of what you keep yelling is the gosple truth they are going to hell and so am I.

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Apparently, assuming that both them and you do not ask God for the salvation the Bible plainly offers. I know of people who are mute, except when they speak in tongues. My neighbours cannot speak a word, this would not disuade me from preaching the Gospel to them, the miraculous part is not my job to work out or worry about.

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Ta Ta and if you come up with a perfect answer to cover it all Biblicly I would love to see it. As long as it dosnt take 15 hours to read Some of the post here have gotton so ridiculissly big I dont even bother coming here becase looking at the text hurts my head. Hens I didnt read much of what is posted above.

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I was asked for a post from the Bible, and I gave it. The answer from the Bible is simple - nothing is impossible for God, and if He defines salvation a certain way the details are His problem, not ours.

I know you'd never say God has no power outright, but your posts are based on the theory that God cannot restore the speech of a dumb person. He can do *anything*.

When Peter and the others initially began to speak in tongues, all the foreigners heard them speak as if it were their own language. I beleive this was speaking in the "tongues of men".

Later, as the Church rapidly grew in the Holy Spirit, when Paul elaborated on the speaking of tongues that required the "gift of interpretating tongues," I beleive he was elaborating on the speaking in the "tongues of angels".

Incidently, I've always been curious to know what language Adam and Eve spoke. Perhaps the original language of man was actually speaking in tongues -- in the "language of God".

Blessings in Christ,
Mr. Ex Nihilo

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Do not forget to entertain strangers,
for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

Hebrews 13:2 (NIV)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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Atomic Team Entertainment
http://www.atomicteam.com

I sat and read through most of the messages here. Firstly, I would like to answer the first intial question, "Do all christians speak in tounges?". The answer to this is a plain and simple, no. I am looking at 1 Corinthians 12.

To understand what Paul is telling the Corinthian Christians, you need to know what was going on in the Corinthian church. This letter was written a few years after the intial setup of the church. During the first years many people received different gifts from the Holy Spirit (gifts listed in ch 12). Although some people had some gifts, they did not have them all. This led to less gifted Christians being envious of more gifted Christians. Also more gifted Christians being high minded in their abilities. This caused schizims among the church.

“For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.” - 1 Cor 1:11

“For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?” - 1 Cor 3:3

When Paul originally preached the gospel to these people he didn't do it with man's knowledge, words or wisdom. All he did was preach Christ and Him crucified, nothing else (1 Cor 2:1-2). Ok, what he preached was who Jesus Christ is, what He did and why He did it. End of story. No additions, no subtractions. He spoke through the power of the Holy Spirit so that their faith would stand on God and not on the things of man (1 Cor 2:5). We can see here that he didn't say anything about spiritual gifts. That shows, from his own words, that salvation is not dependant on gifts. This is shown throughout the NT, as there were people who did spiritual things but were not from God.

They had lost the point of the whole gospel. They were saved by God's grace shown on the cross not by the gifts the Holy Spirit gave them. He had to then speak to them as though they were brand new Christians again. Rather than teaching deaper spiritual things, he had to reteach them the basics. Just like babies, they couldn't handle eating solid food.

“And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?” - 1 Cor 3:1-3

Now that the reason for the letter we can move on to chapter 12.

In chapter 12:4-7, Paul tells the Corinthians that the Holy Spirit has a number of different gifts that He gives to God's people as He sees fit. Not all these gifts are given to everyone. God gives some to one and others to other people (1 Cor 12:8-11). All these gifts are intended to build the church and belivers in there faith (1 Cor 12:7).

“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.” - 1 Cor 12:7-11

Paul then goes on to describe the church as a human body (1 Cor 12:12-13). Although the individual Christians were each given diferent gifts and offices they were all one body. He tells them that the human body consists of many different parts, internal and external. They all have diferent functions but all work together for the working and bettering of the body. The heart is meant to oxygenate & pump blood around the body so that organs may live, but this doesn't make it anymore important than the liver or brain. The organs in the body work in conjunction with each other. So the same are the gifts of the Spirit. Not everyone has the same gifts given them but they are still the one church united under one Spirit.

Paul goes on to tell them the priority of the gifts that the Holy Spirit gives. They are listed in order (1 Cor 12:28). He then goes on to leave them an open edned question about whether everyone has the same gifts or offices bestowed to them. They can clearly see that they don't.

Finally Paul ends chapter 12 with telling the Corinthians to seek earnestly the best gifts which he will show them (1 Cor 12:31). He goes on to tell them what this is in chapter 13, love.

Without love all these gifts are good for nothing (1 Cor 13:3). At the closing of chapter 13 Paul tells them that love is the greatest of all gifts (1 Cor 13:13).

These words, as being God's living word, applies to the church today. We should firstly show love one to another, and then use the gifts God gives us to honour Him in the building of spiritual maturity rather than using them to cause divisions among us.

Yours in Christ,
John

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Come visit me @ my homepage - http://www.mclernon.com/

I had to cool off some before I decided to post here. I've been known to have a quick tounge (pun intended). So now that I've chilled some I'll toss out my perspective.

Throughout my walk with Christ I've seen this issue alone divide and destroy a church. I've taught on this subject on more than one occasion and I have my belief on the correct doctrine concerning tounges, complete with chapter and verse reference. However, I will not share it with you. You see, I've come to realize that something plagues the church that John touched on. It is the word DIVISION. We squabble over worthless dribble while souls perish. Many brethren (at least here in the states) seem to be more concerned with being right than being humble, or being a servant or showing love. I can tell you from first hand experience what this behavior looks like to an unsaved and dying world: hypocrisy. The right hand preaches love while the left slaps his brother for disagreement.

And yes, there are some things worth fighting for, but in the end even Christ stopped fighting. In the end he allowed the hypocrites of his day to nail him to a cross so he might die for their sin as well as yours and mine. Of course, he rose again and had the utlimate victory, a victory his blood bought then and today. In our day, we fight over tounges, full emersion babptism, what denomination actually gets to go to heaven, I've even heard of entire churches splitting over the color of pews; in paul's day it was over who followed which man; during Christ's ministry the big argument was over the resurection of the dead - a matter he settled, personally and in utter completeness.

Stop the argument, let them (whomever the them may be) believe as they do, pray for them and let God deal with them. The Holy Spirit is no respecter of persons and will teach the children of God what they need to understand. This cannot be better illustrated than with the life of Saul: Persecuter of the church, self proclaimed pharasy of pharases, author of the majority of the new testement, humbled and schooled on the road to damascus by the power of our living Lord.

The arguments have been bought and paid for. Let's not re-crucify him. In the end, we all will stand at the throne and I think we ALL will realize just how foolish we have been and what prescious time and resources we've waisted.

peace

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Atomic Team Entertainment
http://www.atomicteam.com

quote:

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Originally posted by brandon:
AMEN!

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And amen to that!

Just for the record, no, I don't beleive one needs to speak in tongues to be saved. This "salvation from speaking in tongues," or the necessity to speak in toungues as a "manifestation of one's salvation," is not in the Scriptures at all. Not all people speak in toungues. Everyone has different gifts as given by Christ himself -- Christ Jesus, the eternal God the Son incarnate, who is 100% true God and 100% true man.

What I added before was just some background info on speaking in tongues as I understood it through the Scriptures and church history.

Blessings,
Mr. Ex Nihilo

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Do not forget to entertain strangers,
for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

Hebrews 13:2 (NIV)

Before I gave my life to God, I was into the "occult", which was for me, spiritism and ouija boards.

I spoke and I did not know it that it happened. They said that I spoke in a deep and dark voice. I could tell you what things that I said, but it is not something that I dwell on these days.

In summary, I used to see, hear and talk to demons constantly in those days. I LIVED Halloween every day for 6 months!

The scariest part was knowing their evil personalites. Some of them made Hitler look like a saint.

So, not all spiritual things are of God. Having said that, I do attend a pentecostal church, but I will not allow myself to speak in tongues, because of my past sins. The church I attend today is at the below link.
http://www.capchrist.org

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however Greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.. And i pray that God gives you security in your relationship with him, not to fear the past sins, but of course maybe it is wise for ratehr exercise other gifts than tounges anyway.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz