I don't know enough about it myself, but i always associated goths, with people who are into 'all things dark'. Perhaps i'm wrong?

So what do you lot think??

--D-SIPL

------------------
Victory Infinitum

------------------
Lalalalalalalala Pancakes AGAIN!

Christian/Goth/Punk/Cowboy/Freak/Scenstar/Hardcore/
Deathmetal/Tecno/Noice/Thrash/Contemperary/Contry/Music Person.

This is about Goth thow so I will stick to that subject. Why would I clame to be such a thing and what does God have anything to do with darkness? Well for one Jesus was the first born of the dead. Thats right He was the first to die and go to God free of sin. Then as for darkness it says in the Bible that God dwells in thick darkness. We are also to be dead to this world. Christian goths are real and they are God's Children. Christian Goths also do not focus fully on death and distruction. Thow Christ came to bring the sward it is not for us to take up. Vengeance is mine says the Lord. We do however focuse on the fact that God did send His son to die for us. That is a death. Blood is a big thing too. For without the Blood of Christ we would all be dammed to everlasting flame. SO befor you start narking on people you dont even know much less try to understand take a good lesson from Jesus "Juge not lest ye shell be Juged".

Now aside from Christian Goths I would like to point out something about non-Christian Goths. I have met many of them and they are not the evil people many wish to clame them to be. Many of them injoy just sitting in a corner with a book and a capacheno. Many of them are willing to be much more friendly then many Christians I have known. The big thing is that they are not Saved. People calling them evil and treating them bad only encorages them that their way of life is best. We need to show the Love of Christ and not juge or pull down or try to scair people to Christ. Then again take it like my dad used to tell me and his grandparents befor him "If you cant say something nice dont say nothing at all"!

Thats my view on Goths. They are just missunderstud and people fear what they do not understand.

Azariah "Angel"

*I got the Joy- Joy- Joy- Joy- down in my heart!* Sorry great concert last night and I ended up having the Holy Ghost tickle me for about an hours worth of laghter.

------------------
Peaza Cheez Mates!
Azariah "Angel"

That is part of one of the Christian Goth bands I liston to. They use peaces of the Bible for their songs ^_^ and give you the scriptures. The Bible is full of really neat things. Just reading that puts the fear of the Lord in me. I wouldnt want to be on the receving end of all the things God could or has done or will do. Well I dont have to worry about that im Saved I just wanted to post this cuz people make God out to be a sissy and He is deffenitly all powerfull!

Azariah "Angel"

PS: I do not drink blood just so you know. The taist is not to my likeing. Flesh on the other hand (Deppending on where it is from) can be very good.

Gothic from the Christian Perspective

This article is an exerpt from "What is Christian Goth" by Joseph J. kopnick

SOURCE 1 - Thomas Woodroofe - The Eternal Chapter
Christian Goth?

Goth has about as many definitions as it has adherents. You will find that everyone has their own subjective opinion as to what Goth is all about. For me Goth is something that has always been with me. I equate it with having a darker, and perhaps more serious view of life and the world. It is far more than just a musical subculture. It is a way of life. Once I received Christ, I never lost my culture. There were certain things that had to go, certain things that didn't glorify God. But I still loved Siouxsie and Bauhaus along with my new found faith in the Lord Jesus. I found that, contrary to popular 'Christian' opinion, I could still wear lace and velvet (and, God forbid- eyeliner?) and worship Christ. At first I thought I was the only one- Surely there weren't other Christians that shared my passion for Goth and served Jesus? God soon brought me into contact with others just like me. When I first found Saviour Machine's debut album, I was amazed and excited. Here were a group of Christians that perceived things in a similar fashion to me, yet they professed the Christian faith. There is a need for Christians to be a witness in every single culture on the face of this planet. God can use all of us right where we are. There is a tendency amongst Christians to shun that which is different from the norm. Some Christians tend to view white, mainstream, western culture as Christian. This leads to a complete disregard of the valid expressions of other subcultures and cultures. This is entirely wrong. The Bible is clearthat all cultures will have their place in the kingdom of heaven. My sincere hope is that all Christians will become as accepting of others as our Lord Jesus was.

SOURCE 2 - Joseph J. Kopnick - Killingtheoldman
The Christian Gothic Aesthetic

As you have already read, there are a myriad of views as to what Gothic is and is not. The truth is, there is no really accurate or definitive answer as  to exactly what Goth is. The same can be said about the Christian Gothic aesthetic. But suffice to say that Christians that are gothic have an understanding and appreciation for things artistically dark, stunning and dramatic. One MUST NOT equate dark artistic aesthetic with evil. When the bible talks about darkness, it is NOT the same as dark artistic aesthetic. Justifying the Conundrum Let me first begin by saying that I cannot speak for the masses. I can only tell you how I believe Gothic and Christianity relate to and complement one another in my own life. Many may or may not agree with what I believe. Please do not approach this as a be all end all definition of Christian Gothica. Goths on the whole are fiercely independent and eclectic, so my personal opinion will not be shared by all (or even the majority of) other Goths. Gothic in its general essence is expression of a dark aesthetic through various medium including Art, Music, Literature, Architecture, Lifestyle, Attitude and Outlook. I use the word dark here for lack of a better term, perhaps it may should be modified with words like "dramatic" or "high contrast", but for simplicity's sake, we'll use the term dark. I personally feel that of all the sub-cultures that exists, Gothic has some of the most startling ties with Christianity. Below are a few examples.

Drink from me and forever live
Centerpiece of many a gothic tale is an eternal creature who has eluded the claws of death and exists outside the realm of the natural, haunting the land of the living in search of people willing to partake in that death in order to live on in eternity. The entire idea of receiving eternal life through partaking in the death of another is about as gothic as one can get. Christ, the undead, fulfills for those who seek him, their dreams of eternal paradise through partaking in his death, drinking from his cup the blood of the crucifixion.

And Jesus wept
Life is tragic. Christ as a person was a tragic being. He is very often misleadingly pictured as an always smiling person of overwhelming giddiness and jocularity. When in reality, suffering was his contribution to the world. His individual acts of healing and teaching pale in comparison to t he salvation he instituted through his suffering, abandonment and death. Only through an intimate understanding of the suffering Christ underwent can we completely understand the magnitude of what he saved us from. That is the true Joy of life.

Melancholy but happy
Contrary to popular belief, a happy outward appearance does not mean a happy inward person. I am melancholy because I understand who I am and what I have done. I crucified Christ. It was because of me that he was broken. I am pensive out of the ocean of respect and fear I hold of the Almighty One. I am happy through my security in Christ, but I am also deliberate to measure my steps. I don't feel the necessity to play the game of smiling to make others feel comfortable around me, so I am often misunderstood as being unfriendly. In that manner I am guilty of pretension and callousness. This is by no means peculiar or uncommon in the gothic scene and is a very well understood thing between Goths when they first meet each other, an unspoken quietness of mutual understanding. Though to an outsider this is a sign of depression, I see it as a sign of respect in the form of honesty toward a fellow person.

In remembrance of me
For centuries, black has had its connotations in one form or another. Not because it is uncommon by any means, but because it strikes chords of the unknown. Black has symbolized death, deity, mourning, humility, mystery, and evil.  People at a funeral wear black in remembrance of the deceased. We are commanded in the book to perform the communion in order to remember Christ's death until his return. Instead of doing it in church as a blank ceremony once every blue moon, why not live the remembrance?
A Lucid, yet taboo truth One important truth that is often ignored is that many of us really like the look. Its not all about fashion, but it fashion has a lot to do with it for some. I am the last person in the world to deny that I absolutely adore the look and the music. But I will be the first to point out that Goth is an amalgamation of many, many things and for each Goth, its a different combination.

Deconstruction for Reconstruction
Adherents of hardcore Gothica have an understanding and appreciation of the ideas of self-destructive behavior such as cutting, mutilation and self deprivation out of feelings, often times, of severe inadequacy. The Christian Gothic expression of this same feeling is to die to ones self, because we in truth are NOT adequate, only through the death of ones self can we learn to trust God. Deconstruction of self for reconstruction by God to preservation of our souls. There really is no single sentence that can
sum up in complete the tie between Gothic and Christianity. But If I was forced to try, I suppose this is what I would come up with: Christian Gothica is a physical manifestation of the fact that only through death can life be gained, only by knowing what darkness is can we fully enjoy the light, only by understanding suffering can we completely appreciate salvation.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Can a Christian Be Gothic?
by Pastor Ed
Carter of Sanctuary

This is a personal question to me, so I will address what being "gothic" means to me and why I have chosen to embrace this lifestyle. Let me start by explaining how and why I became a "goth." I jokingly say that my dear friend Chase sired me to the "dark side," because he was the first one to introduce me to this culture. I became "gothic" during a time of extreme sadness in my life. I was surrounded by others who were telling me to just be happy and I could not. I found solace in the dark sounds of Love and Rockets and Bauhaus. In the Cure, I found honesty of emotion, something I desperately needed. When I became "saved" I noticed that while I had the "light of the world" in my life, I was still an outsider. I could not adapt to the cookie-cutter Christian model. Eventually, I discovered Sanctuary and truly found it the right place for my soul. Now I am a Shadow Dweller, lurking with a candle, holding it out to others, sharing the light and the love of God to those who are also living in the shadows. It is hard to understand the real meaning of who/what a goth is if you are not a part of this scene. To me gothic is more than a fashion choice or a music preference. It is an attitude of how one views the world we live in. Some choose to look at life from a very shallow point of view, i.e., "life is one big party and fun is the big goal in life." Others see it from a "yuppie" perspective, looking for their identity in their work, money, possessions, etc. life from a "gothic" point of view is one that is bleak and somber, thus the dark appearance and style of dress. The world is dark to me, because it's so far from God's holy plan and design, that it saddens me greatly. I express my somberness to the world by my style of dress and demeanor. I relate to the prophet Jeremiah regarded by most as the Weeping Prophet.

Being gothic to me is also being real real with myself, real with others, and real with God. I do not hide behind a mask to hide who I am and how I truly feel. When I am happy I express it fully, and when I am sad I express that as well. Most goths express their bleak sadness openly and I see that as an honesty of humanity. I admire the culture for it's open and honest expression of self, no matter how perverse or strange, because this is how God sees us. We cannot hide our sins from Him and it is foolish to think we can. In "normal society," people seem so concerned with appearances, they hide their true selves in order to gain the favor of others. This mask-wearing is accepted, yet stark honesty is often shunned, even by those in the church. This is truly sad. You see, being gothic is more than a fashion statement or a certain style of music. It is a reflection of how one chooses to see the world. This world is lost, hell- bound, and full of people in complete denial, seeking to fill that God-shaped void within them with everything except the Cross. It is a world lacking in honesty of self or honesty toward others. If I were to be anything but "gothic" in my views, I would be among the mask-wearing hypocrites. So I wear black and tell others who will listen that the world is empty and bleak. Yet it does not have to be. Though we live in the darkness, we are not of it. Thanks be to God for that.
I am a Christian Goth, I tried to hide it from everyone because I was shunned and rejected for it in churches, school, whatever. Now that I'm getting deeper into God and cleaning my life, He's bringing me back to that and I haven't been happier and I don't care what people think because I listen to God and not people. I am more deeply gothic minded than dressed, you don't need to dress like a goth to be a goth, because you can dress like a goth and not be a goth, or you can think like a goth and not be dressed like one.

Gothic from the Christian Perspective

This article is an exerpt from "What is Christian Goth" by Joseph J. kopnick

SOURCE 1 - Thomas Woodroofe - The Eternal Chapter
Christian Goth?

Goth has about as many definitions as it has adherents. You will find that everyone has their own subjective opinion as to what Goth is all about. For me Goth is something that has always been with me. I equate it with having a darker, and perhaps more serious view of life and the world. It is far more than just a musical subculture. It is a way of life. Once I received Christ, I never lost my culture. There were certain things that had to go, certain things that didn't glorify God. But I still loved Siouxsie and Bauhaus along with my new found faith in the Lord Jesus. I found that, contrary to popular 'Christian' opinion, I could still wear lace and velvet (and, God forbid- eyeliner?) and worship Christ. At first I thought I was the only one- Surely there weren't other Christians that shared my passion for Goth and served Jesus? God soon brought me into contact with others just like me. When I first found Saviour Machine's debut album, I was amazed and excited. Here were a group of Christians that perceived things in a similar fashion to me, yet they professed the Christian faith. There is a need for Christians to be a witness in every single culture on the face of this planet. God can use all of us right where we are. There is a tendency amongst Christians to shun that which is different from the norm. Some Christians tend to view white, mainstream, western culture as Christian. This leads to a complete disregard of the valid expressions of other subcultures and cultures. This is entirely wrong. The Bible is clearthat all cultures will have their place in the kingdom of heaven. My sincere hope is that all Christians will become as accepting of others as our Lord Jesus was.

SOURCE 2 - Joseph J. Kopnick - Killingtheoldman
The Christian Gothic Aesthetic

As you have already read, there are a myriad of views as to what Gothic is and is not. The truth is, there is no really accurate or definitive answer as  to exactly what Goth is. The same can be said about the Christian Gothic aesthetic. But suffice to say that Christians that are gothic have an understanding and appreciation for things artistically dark, stunning and dramatic. One MUST NOT equate dark artistic aesthetic with evil. When the bible talks about darkness, it is NOT the same as dark artistic aesthetic. Justifying the Conundrum Let me first begin by saying that I cannot speak for the masses. I can only tell you how I believe Gothic and Christianity relate to and complement one another in my own life. Many may or may not agree with what I believe. Please do not approach this as a be all end all definition of Christian Gothica. Goths on the whole are fiercely independent and eclectic, so my personal opinion will not be shared by all (or even the majority of) other Goths. Gothic in its general essence is expression of a dark aesthetic through various medium including Art, Music, Literature, Architecture, Lifestyle, Attitude and Outlook. I use the word dark here for lack of a better term, perhaps it may should be modified with words like "dramatic" or "high contrast", but for simplicity's sake, we'll use the term dark. I personally feel that of all the sub-cultures that exists, Gothic has some of the most startling ties with Christianity. Below are a few examples.

Drink from me and forever live
Centerpiece of many a gothic tale is an eternal creature who has eluded the claws of death and exists outside the realm of the natural, haunting the land of the living in search of people willing to partake in that death in order to live on in eternity. The entire idea of receiving eternal life through partaking in the death of another is about as gothic as one can get. Christ, the undead, fulfills for those who seek him, their dreams of eternal paradise through partaking in his death, drinking from his cup the blood of the crucifixion.

And Jesus wept
Life is tragic. Christ as a person was a tragic being. He is very often misleadingly pictured as an always smiling person of overwhelming giddiness and jocularity. When in reality, suffering was his contribution to the world. His individual acts of healing and teaching pale in comparison to t he salvation he instituted through his suffering, abandonment and death. Only through an intimate understanding of the suffering Christ underwent can we completely understand the magnitude of what he saved us from. That is the true Joy of life.

Melancholy but happy
Contrary to popular belief, a happy outward appearance does not mean a happy inward person. I am melancholy because I understand who I am and what I have done. I crucified Christ. It was because of me that he was broken. I am pensive out of the ocean of respect and fear I hold of the Almighty One. I am happy through my security in Christ, but I am also deliberate to measure my steps. I don't feel the necessity to play the game of smiling to make others feel comfortable around me, so I am often misunderstood as being unfriendly. In that manner I am guilty of pretension and callousness. This is by no means peculiar or uncommon in the gothic scene and is a very well understood thing between Goths when they first meet each other, an unspoken quietness of mutual understanding. Though to an outsider this is a sign of depression, I see it as a sign of respect in the form of honesty toward a fellow person.

In remembrance of me
For centuries, black has had its connotations in one form or another. Not because it is uncommon by any means, but because it strikes chords of the unknown. Black has symbolized death, deity, mourning, humility, mystery, and evil.  People at a funeral wear black in remembrance of the deceased. We are commanded in the book to perform the communion in order to remember Christ's death until his return. Instead of doing it in church as a blank ceremony once every blue moon, why not live the remembrance?
A Lucid, yet taboo truth One important truth that is often ignored is that many of us really like the look. Its not all about fashion, but it fashion has a lot to do with it for some. I am the last person in the world to deny that I absolutely adore the look and the music. But I will be the first to point out that Goth is an amalgamation of many, many things and for each Goth, its a different combination.

Deconstruction for Reconstruction
Adherents of hardcore Gothica have an understanding and appreciation of the ideas of self-destructive behavior such as cutting, mutilation and self deprivation out of feelings, often times, of severe inadequacy. The Christian Gothic expression of this same feeling is to die to ones self, because we in truth are NOT adequate, only through the death of ones self can we learn to trust God. Deconstruction of self for reconstruction by God to preservation of our souls. There really is no single sentence that can
sum up in complete the tie between Gothic and Christianity. But If I was forced to try, I suppose this is what I would come up with: Christian Gothica is a physical manifestation of the fact that only through death can life be gained, only by knowing what darkness is can we fully enjoy the light, only by understanding suffering can we completely appreciate salvation.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Can a Christian Be Gothic?
by Pastor Ed
Carter of Sanctuary

This is a personal question to me, so I will address what being "gothic" means to me and why I have chosen to embrace this lifestyle. Let me start by explaining how and why I became a "goth." I jokingly say that my dear friend Chase sired me to the "dark side," because he was the first one to introduce me to this culture. I became "gothic" during a time of extreme sadness in my life. I was surrounded by others who were telling me to just be happy and I could not. I found solace in the dark sounds of Love and Rockets and Bauhaus. In the Cure, I found honesty of emotion, something I desperately needed. When I became "saved" I noticed that while I had the "light of the world" in my life, I was still an outsider. I could not adapt to the cookie-cutter Christian model. Eventually, I discovered Sanctuary and truly found it the right place for my soul. Now I am a Shadow Dweller, lurking with a candle, holding it out to others, sharing the light and the love of God to those who are also living in the shadows. It is hard to understand the real meaning of who/what a goth is if you are not a part of this scene. To me gothic is more than a fashion choice or a music preference. It is an attitude of how one views the world we live in. Some choose to look at life from a very shallow point of view, i.e., "life is one big party and fun is the big goal in life." Others see it from a "yuppie" perspective, looking for their identity in their work, money, possessions, etc. life from a "gothic" point of view is one that is bleak and somber, thus the dark appearance and style of dress. The world is dark to me, because it's so far from God's holy plan and design, that it saddens me greatly. I express my somberness to the world by my style of dress and demeanor. I relate to the prophet Jeremiah regarded by most as the Weeping Prophet.

Being gothic to me is also being real real with myself, real with others, and real with God. I do not hide behind a mask to hide who I am and how I truly feel. When I am happy I express it fully, and when I am sad I express that as well. Most goths express their bleak sadness openly and I see that as an honesty of humanity. I admire the culture for it's open and honest expression of self, no matter how perverse or strange, because this is how God sees us. We cannot hide our sins from Him and it is foolish to think we can. In "normal society," people seem so concerned with appearances, they hide their true selves in order to gain the favor of others. This mask-wearing is accepted, yet stark honesty is often shunned, even by those in the church. This is truly sad. You see, being gothic is more than a fashion statement or a certain style of music. It is a reflection of how one chooses to see the world. This world is lost, hell- bound, and full of people in complete denial, seeking to fill that God-shaped void within them with everything except the Cross. It is a world lacking in honesty of self or honesty toward others. If I were to be anything but "gothic" in my views, I would be among the mask-wearing hypocrites. So I wear black and tell others who will listen that the world is empty and bleak. Yet it does not have to be. Though we live in the darkness, we are not of it. Thanks be to God for that.

------------------
Lalalalalalalala Pancakes AGAIN!

I am not coming against christian goths, but coming from a background of knowing and being involved with many
cultures, subcultures and denominations, and being a christian and through the dealing of God in my life and others
-knowing and understanding much about the issues of the human heart..
I am not attacking goths, or people at all, just asking some questions that are helpful for each person to ask themselves irregardless or culture , subculture or past, but certian people and certian subcultures are more vulnerable to certian weaknesses, and in understanding our human weaknesses, and the decietfulness of the human heart, but also understanding the abounding love, grace and mercy of our Lord and saviour (oh yeah!!) i continue..

When you are involved in anything, espcially something you clearly indentify yourself with, and your thinking patterns..
its always good to ask ourselves, Why are we involved in this?, of course we will not know the answer to this completely as nobody by God really knows us too well, not even ourselves, but careful and honest introspection can reveal some things, and we can always ask God to clarify and tell us, to heal us, and like david did , to search out heart for all iniquity..

our answers can be on different levels too... for example in the next week i'm going to cut my hair.. i've had long hair since i was about 15, various people have commented on it in different ways , my mother and wife and friends think it looks very good on me, my grandmother and others think its wrong for a man to have such long hair, some guys checked me out from the back at a fair once thinking i was a hot girl until i turned around with a beard, etc... different peoples judgements on it could be because of their own hangups or not...i can choose to get offended or not.

i can ask myself "why do i have long hair?"
i could say many answers on the surface
"because i like it, :VALID
it feels good, mostliy VALID
i have to right to and and nobody has the right to tell me otherwise : possibly valid but full of REBELLION
i'm used to it and don't know how else to have it : possibly valid, maybe hinting at not liking chance or fear of the uncertianty..
i could say that jesus probably had resonably long hair , and why is it a problem, and its my life and my choices..

but lately i feel that God is leading me to cut it, why is it because long hair is intrisically wrong and any guy with hair
over X amount of inches is sinning? NO..

previsouly i could have asked myself honestly why i still have long hair and don't want to cut it short. and even in full honestly
i wouldn't have found the real reason.. its taken time of healing and prayer with God..

the real reason (and thus the reason why i need tocut it)..
i had an abusive childhood, and not many people liked me at school.. people said i looked funny and was strange and wierd..
coincidentally about the time i was growing long hair was when i moved in with some christian friends and was accepted for who i was , and my self esteem started to heal, and i wasn't sweating out an atmosphere that i was a victim and people didn't
walk over me so much... God worked lots in my life and i grew tremendously..

however healing is not always complete and takes time, and cutting my hair brings memory of when i had short hair
and wasn't accepted and many thought was ugly (while many many people think i'm good looking now).. so there is fear
that i am actually ugly and people will think so, also fear that i'll be ugly, uglier than my wife's ex-boyfriend.. a whole
group of insecurities that i thought were dealt with come to the surface..

anyway what as that got to do with Goth..

just to encourage anybody, in the subculture they are in, and strongly identify with,
WHY AM I, and WHY DO I INDENTIFY WITH THIS?
and ask God to search your heart.. you may be surprised what God may bring up.. i'm not saying he will make
you not be a goth, but you may have your mind renewed and transformed..

about IDOLS..

many things can be idols to us, we put them above God in our lives and indentify with them or hold on to them to tight.
when jesus says we have to give up friends, family , homes , possesions for his sake, often we have to give up our thinking
patterns and what we identify with.. (though not everything of course) we need to die to our self, sacrifice the way we are
to be more like Christ..

anyhow about IDOLS, many people have idols, for some T.V or sport can be an idol, for others music, for some nicey nicey christians
there american dream with a nice job, nice house, 3 children, 2 cars , swimming pool, and church that is nice and comfortible with
good friends but not to challenging, - that can be an idol.. for many Seventh Day Adventists - God's Blessing of the sabbath has been turned into an Idol, for some penticostals , tounges has been turned into an ido above God, and sought after more than God himself,
for many, having a traditional church and everything in place and comfortable and not changing is an idol..
and to others GOTH can be an Idol..

as some of those articles pointed out, we can align think our culture is christianity, they said the "white nicey nicey" christian viewpoint.. its a sad fact that even missionairies have been preaching western culture rather than christianity so many times..
in africa local people spend a years salary to pay for a nice wooden coffin to bury their dead and starve themselves just because
they were taught that was the 'proper christian thing to do'..
in my missionary course called "perspectives" we learned all about this, and i know somebody whose job at a seminary is
basically to teach americans to be less american so they can be more effective missionaries.. Don Richardson has written an
amazing book called "eternity in their hearts" which shows certian aspects of pagan cultures that God had placed in their cultures
to be eye openers to the gospel.. this book blew up mind open.. in every culture there are things that are very christian,
things that are neutral, things that have potential to be christian or unchristian and things that are just plain wrong..

quote:

---

There is a tendency amongst Christians to shun that which is different from the norm. Some Christians tend to view white, mainstream, western culture as Christian. This leads to a complete disregard of the valid expressions of other subcultures and cultures. This is entirely wrong. The Bible is clearthat all cultures will have their place in the kingdom of heaven. My sincere hope is that all Christians will become as accepting of others as our Lord Jesus was.

---

The above statement is true, however if it comes from rebellion against the norm (even rebellion against things that "should" be
rebelled against is still rebellion and wrong, i.e lets say i was rebelling against the nazi's and i was hiding jews, which would have
been agood thing, if it was out of plain rebellion and rebellion was in my heart, it woudl still be sin in God's eyes)..
Jesus was very accepting, he accepted everybody and loved everybody perfect, however he would call a spade a spade and
sin sin.. In every culture there are dangers and lures that take our focus off christ.. in the goth one there are specific things
that every christian who ministers in this scene, or actually enters into this scene should be aware of, i'm not an expert in this
areas but God has given me some general wisdom..

There are dangers in the goth mindsets that can possibly cause a christian not to enter into all that God would have for him,
and possibly lead him down wrong paths and understandings, much of Pauls letters were correcting different thinking patterns
and mindsets , doctrines and heresies. I am very mindful of that when i look at my own life, and at the division between
different denominations - its so sad.. as long as the basics and foundation of our worldview and the biblical worldview regarding
the gospel of Jesus is the same, other things aren't so important, its sad that denominations have rebellion and judging of each
other rather than love..
I do however think that some basic tenets goth and christianty collide majorly.

A big question... are you feeding from goth, or feeding from Jesus?
do you identify more as a christian , or more as a goth?
are you adapting aspects of goth to fit the christian worldview?
or adapting aspects of christianity to fit into the goth worldview?

i was talking with some big techno/rave christian dj's who work in clubs where there is alot of drugs etc..
the focus of our conversation was really "to be in the world , but not of it".. its a very delicate balance (as with everything in the
christian walk), so many christians don't even live in the world, they live in their isolated churches and lose the ability
to relate to nonchristians.. however i've seen many a christian backslide and lose faith because they let themself "be in the
world too much" and got lured slowly by this tempation and that tempation and rationalising it the whole way..
a few years ago, i was living in a non christian flat with 7 friends of mine.. i left in the end , because i felt that i was feeding
/being affected by them, more than the other way (because i was meant to be the light and the salt, affecting the enviroment i was
in , but my salt was losing its flavour...)... at other times i've left my christian comfort zones to 'be in the world' because God
has placed it upon my soul strongly a passion and zeal for the unsaved, and i've experienced a very small amount of the grief
and love of christ for dying souls.. however the thought "to be in the world , but not of it", we can ask ourselves.. Lord the
place i am now, is it where you want me to be?, is there anything i am blind to? , Lord search my soul for all iniquity and cleanse me
and guide me on your paths of righteousness..

about Dark Things..

yes the world is full of darkness, Sin has wrecked havoc in the lives of everybody, and all of creation is groining for the
redeption of mankind...
God is light, Jesus was the light who came into the world and shined brightly, we are called to be lights.. and lights cast out
darkness.. you turn on a lightbulb in a room, what happens to the darkness, it dissapears.. it is true to be real to the situation
of the world.. its true to acknowledge it, and the pain of it... however Jesus, our answer is GREATER than the darkness
there are 2 times as many angels than fallen angels, We have redemption, we are here for a purpose, God protects us each
day from darkness -if God took down his protection from the darkness of us, the devil would devour us all in an instant..
God lets certian suffering through, but he loves us, and is there for us, and helps us grow, and he is there to nurture us.
and we are here on earth for a purpose, with a destiny, having a destiny is nothing to be depressive about.. actually we
have a responsibility to enter into our destiny..
Jesus died to take our darkness, we don't need to dwell on it, just like we don't plead forgiveness over and over for the same
sin we commited a certian time, thats very faithless, we have to receive his forgiveness with faith, and let him have our baggage..
as humans we constantly take it back, so we have to keep coming to the foot of the cross and surrendering it , and all our lives
to the Lordship of Jesus Christ..

I'm not saying to put on a fakey fakey smile and not be real to our troubles, and struggles, and pains... on the contrary
God wants you to spill your guts taking your burdens to Him, letting him heal your wounds, He understands perfectly, He cares
and loves perfectly.. Many Christians think they are the only one who struggle with something in their lives,(i.e how many christian men in a church talk freely about their struggles with sexual tempation - we fall because we are proud, and won't be humble to each other and God has placed each other around each other to help and encourage and keep each other accountible) and are too proud
to admit their failures (including myself) and can live a happy happy everything is right charade.. but just because we see the
charade in many other people (and judge them because it, even though we wish they don't judge us for our subculture)
doesn't mean we have to embrace darkness, Christ had victory over sin and darkness, and it is very very saddenning to realize
that our sins are causing those nails to go into him, that he suffered anguish unimaginable for our cause. thats someting that
shouldn't depress up.. but something that should humble us..

life has suffering, much suffering, christian or nonchristian, but i'm slowly learning something that many christians and matyers
have learnt over the generations... that suffering for christ is joyful.... to suffer for my own sins and selfishness is a very bitter suffering, ut to suffer for christ is a sweet suffering.. but in that suffering i can go to God and bathe in his peace and presense, there is no darkness there, though the world i live in and my life is tormenting me, in the presense of God there is just light, no darkness, there is peace, i am hiding under God's wing, like a mother bird cares for her young and protects them.. the issues of the darkness and reality of that in this world, is secondary to the absolute truths of God and his Love , though in the natural i could think that God may not be working in an area, and i could actually get upset at him for it (as many have done), i choose to trust my Lord...

you see i can wake up and choose to accept God's forgiveness and "his mercies and new every morning" , and i can be thankful
for all the good work he is doing in the world and in my life and others (he is moving much, did you know more people have most likely become christians in the last 5 years than in the rest of history combined?).. its human nature to focus on the negative-
and thats a weakness christian goth mindsets - the negative is true, but God's postivies are so much more exciting and true,
we need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.. i could get bagged down with stress and traffic and peoples attitudes
and my own failures in lifeetc.. or choose to have an attitude of gratitude, being thankful for God, aware of my limitations and sin,
but strongly aware of the Holy SPirit within me, and God's grace and gift of forgiveness and salvation...
many times i've been negative and missed the fact God has made a beautiful sunrise, and the trees and scenery are amazing..
i need to stand back, and not be so self centered on my suffering and life, and give glory to the almighty.. to be in AWE of his creation..

Jesus died, yes he died.. for us for our sins... he suffered all that evil could deal out, and spilt his perfect blood for our sakes..
thats something we should never take lightly.
however he raised again, he has victory over death, "death , where is your sting".. we are more than overcommers in christ,
we have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us, and we are vessels for God's purpose on earth.. He loves and accepts us, and wants
to be initmate friends with us... this here is much grander than the bleakness of the world.. these facts way overshadow the evil around.. We are more than overcommers ... We are called to be the light in the darkness, God enables us to be, and helps us..
if having 500 dollars in debt is depressing, after you recieve 5 million , are you still depressed over the 500 dollars, no..
we have recieved Christ, its so amazing, most of the prophets of old would have loved to have the resources and open gateway to God that Christ made for us.. thaat would have given anything to be able to interact with God other than a couple of times in their lives..

about being different..
if you are in a subculture because you choose to be 'different'. one can ask God to search our hearts for we
we feel we get our acceptance from, sometimes being different is riddled with rebellion.. after it goes much deeper than that
into rejection, and insecurities and the need of a place to belong for people who feel they don't belong...
(and if that is you, then God says... i have gone to prepare a place for you, and you belong with me, and i love you and accept you
and abide in me..)

about dying to self..
It is true that we need to take up our cross and die to self.. there is a battle in us raging when we are a christian
our flesh nature still wants to be in control, yet through God's help and discipline we nail that sin nature to the cross..

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The truth is, there is no really accurate or definitive answer as to exactly what Goth is. The same can be said about the Christian Gothic aesthetic. But suffice to say that Christians that are gothic have an understanding and appreciation for things artistically dark, stunning and dramatic. One MUST NOT equate dark artistic aesthetic with evil.

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ART in modern culture , and even democracy etc have often become idols... there is a difference between aknowledging and realizing
the darkness in the world, and placing value on it.. i believe that gothism in general and christian goths who aren't careful can
place value on aesthetic darkness, and this can be dangerous..
(a non gothic example is people can place talk truths about satan, for the purpose of spiritual warfare, but if not put in the context
of God, it can put fear into people and its giving glory to satan.. also people can get involved in casting out demons and stuff so much
that they spend more of their time dealing with the darkside than feeding from God.... everybody can get unbalanced.. end times teachings are good, but if you focus most of your energy on that.. you are missing out of Christ.. Christ is the center ..

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Drink from me and forever live
Centerpiece of many a gothic tale is an eternal creature who has eluded the claws of death and exists outside the realm of the natural, haunting the land of the living in search of people willing to partake in that death in order to live on in eternity. The entire idea of receiving eternal life through partaking in the death of another is about as gothic as one can get. Christ, the undead, fulfills for those who seek him, their dreams of eternal paradise through partaking in his death, drinking from his cup the blood of the crucifixion.

---

the above is true.... jesus did suffer a teribble death for us.. but its not the issue of his 'being dead' that is the gospel..
anybody can die , but can't do what jesus did, Jesus was God, and was perfect, and choose to come down to earth , deal with
the tempations of living a human life, yet not sin, and die for our sins, so that we may live.. He was raised to life and is a part of
our everyday lives, he is not still in the grave.. when talking and ministering with non-christian goths the above can be an eye opener, however its not the full story.. saying that Christ was haunting is mislead, as is associating Him with the undead..

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Melancholy but happy
Contrary to popular belief, a happy outward appearance does not mean a happy inward person. I am melancholy because I understand who I am and what I have done. I crucified Christ. It was because of me that he was broken. I am pensive out of the ocean of respect and fear I hold of the Almighty One. I am happy through my security in Christ, but I am also deliberate to measure my steps. I don't feel the necessity to play the game of smiling to make others feel comfortable around me, so I am often misunderstood as being unfriendly. In that manner I am guilty of pretension and callousness. This is by no means peculiar or uncommon in the gothic scene and is a very well understood thing between Goths when they first meet each other, an unspoken quietness of mutual understanding. Though to an outsider this is a sign of depression, I see it as a sign of respect in the form of honesty toward a fellow person.

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there is much truth in above.. often i lay on my bed and cry because i know of my sin, i am a man riddled with sin, and i can
see my sin nailing him to that cross.. however i am not melecholic , i feel the anguish that i caused him deeply.. but i also
recieve his grace, mery and peace, i am thankful for his forgiveness, the experience is emotionally strong and difficult but it is
also sweet. I do not take his sacrifice lightly, but i do have an inner joy... i am not guity for my sin, because i fully recieve his forgiveness and know the self destructive paths of guilt all too well.. again there is a subtle difference in attitude..

quote:

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in remeberance of him..

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Deconstruction for Reconstruction
Adherents of hardcore Gothica have an understanding and appreciation of the ideas of self-destructive behavior such as cutting, mutilation and self deprivation out of feelings, often times, of severe inadequacy. The Christian Gothic expression of this same feeling is to die to ones self, because we in truth are NOT adequate, only through the death of ones self can we learn to trust God. Deconstruction of self for reconstruction by God to preservation of our souls. There really is no single sentence that can
sum up in complete the tie between Gothic and Christianity. But If I was forced to try, I suppose this is what I would come up with: Christian Gothica is a physical manifestation of the fact that only through death can life be gained, only by knowing what darkness is can we fully enjoy the light, only by understanding suffering can we completely appreciate salvation.

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Dieing to self is diffierent than self destructive, or self sabotaging behaviours... very different.. one is hurting ourselves for
various deep reasons that need to be dealt with and healed.. i often have had many self sabotaging behaviours to deal with,
the root of my rejection is strong, and i have subciously and consiously done things to prove to myself that God couldn't be proud of me or love me.. (i had got to the stage of accepting his Love and acceptance of me, that he loves me unconditionally and is very
patient, but i felt that he could not be proud of me, a man riddled with sin. i felt God was like "i love and accept you Karl,
and i'm goign to be as patient as i need until you get yourself sorted out".. so when i recieved a word from God that He was proud of me, i started sinning sexually, i didn't understand why, i later found out it was largely because i had to prove that i was God couldn't be proud of me, because my rejection still had (and still does to a degree) a large hold on my life, and i need to actually die
to my rejection and accept Christs gifts to me..
the danger of a christian goth in this case is, if they have such deep issues in their lives, it will be easy to put christian labels on them. to work out other ways to hurt themselves, ways that might even seem like christian discipline or 'dieing to self' and
even good things can be bad when the motivation of our heart is to harm ourselves, for how dare we harm a man (ourselves) that
God created in His image and loves dearly..

I am not saying we have to be cookie cutter christians... and just because the church fails us and other christians fail us doesn't mean God fails us. God says that he choose the church , in his wisdom, to accomplish His purpose (if i was God i wouldn't have done that.. ) but i trust God's wisedom..
sure we can see hypocracy in the church, not honesty of lifes situations and feelings, superficility, materialism..
we don't have to be like that, we can just be like Jesus of the bible, we don't have to rebel against the church (i'm not saying a denomination but as a whole), and accept a dangerous subculture (but try to censor it the best we can to suit our purposes)..
sure we need to relate to people in all subcultures, but if we identify too closely (closer to goth than to christ) we are not building our lives on the solid rock, but with one root on the rock and one on the sand..

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The world is dark to me, because it's so far from God's holy plan and design, that it saddens me greatly. I express my somberness to the world by my style of dress and demeanor. I relate to the prophet Jeremiah regarded by most as the Weeping Prophet.

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the world is dark, but God's like is so much brighter, even in this fallen world.. the Holy Spirit is indwelling countless amount of people around the globe, and to the measure thatthey are submitting their lives to Christ, He is moving in this age.. (in all cultures and subcultures amen).. its something to be celebratory about (but not in a fake way)... and yes weeping is part of being a christian
when you start to pray for somebody lots, and recieve apage love for them, you mourn with those who mourn and its hard,But God is good..

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Being gothic to me is also being real real with myself, real with others, and real with God. I do not hide behind a mask to hide who I am and how I truly feel. When I am happy I express it fully, and when I am sad I express that as well. Most goths express their bleak sadness openly and I see that as an honesty of humanity. I admire the culture for it's open and honest expression of self, no matter how perverse or strange, because this is how God sees us. We cannot hide our sins from Him and it is foolish to think we can.

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honesty is good and needed, the christian church has failed (because its full of people) so much, but the alternative is not
turning to goth to get honesty etc, but to the Jesus of the bible rather than the jesus of our tradition or the jesus of the box we put him in our human understanding.

you are really correct about being real, and not trying to hide our sins... however as a christian we have not a bleak sadness, but an inner joy.. sure we can see sadness in the world and relate to it, and have a burden from God for people , but its different.. we are
to be real to ourself and God.. even when our feelings aren't valid we can still be honest about them and say to God "i don't have a reason to be angry, but i am Lord, an i submit that to you Lord, and Lord heal my heart and console my griefs" ..
feelings are valid, and real... what we do with them determines if they are sin.. if we wallow around in depression and self pity
(i'm not saying this is what goths do) then we are sinning and denying christ his worship and appreciation, and making we are
saying that Christs sacrifice is not good enough for our situation..

I know my words are jumbed and not so clear and when i say you i was talking to the person who wrote the article not
to anybody here..

there is much more i would like to say, but i need to get to church now..
Lord have your devine way, and use my words for your purposes, Lord let me not offend any ones hearts and cause them
to turn from you.. Lord i know that i am not 'right' but you are, and this isn't the bible, but my words, but i trust in your bible
and your love for everybody here.. Lord may everybody here, including myself, learn more about your amazing nature
through the course of these discussions AMEN..

everybody:

please don't get offended at this.. if you get offended ask yourself and God' "why am i getting offended?"... the words i say
are just my words and you can choose to read them, ignore them , do whatever you will, i am not trying to force you to change
or not be goth so there is nothing really to get offended at, so if you find yourself getting offended or defesive, ask God about it..
i do not want to be offensive, nor judge, but to be loving like Christ is..

notes for future posts everybody else can ignore this)
there is neither jew nor gentile,
christian vampires..

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

1. Supposing a stranger passes by you on the street who is in desperate need of something, perhaps money to buy food or his bus ticket home - do you worry that he may be afraid to ask you because of your appearance and the grim look on your face ?

2. Do you feel loved by God ? When I remember how much God loves me and how lucky I am for all the gifts he has given me I want to jump for joy and have little control over the idiotic grin across my face.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

2) Yes, very very much so

Of course, God looks to the inside, but being 'all things to all men' is a logical extension of spiritual growth, because it's doing what the Bible says. I'm not saying that Christian Goths are unsaved, but that anyone who seeks any label in addition to Christian probably has some growing to do.

-end of line-

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2Samuel C6 V14, Psalm C149-150, Ecclesiastes C9 V5, Ezekiel C2-3&C39, Matthew C6 V25, Luke C19 V11, 1Corinthians C13, Galatians C5 V22, Ephesians C3 V9, Colossians C1 V16, 1Peter C3 V3, Revelations C10

I would think that a lot of people who have NOT been heartless to you also dress 'normal', the point of normal is that most people do it. This speaks again of your seeking fellowship more with a particular human subculture instead of the church.

Its fine if you do dress that way. I wouldnt find you aprochibul at all.

You wouldn't find me approachable because I don't dress wierd ? You need to stop looking at the outside then, how can you say others do this when you clearly do it also ? I decide if someone is approachable by looking them in the eye and smiling, and seeing how they respond, not by how new or fashionable or 'normal' their clothes are. If we met, it sounds like I would be happy to speak to you, but you would avoid me. Who out of us is looking to the outer man ?

Infact I would turn and run the other way. (Besides if you look at it my way Politics try to be aprochibal and so do loyers... you see what im saying im sure)

Lawyers and politicians try to be approachable for their own ends, and so do prostitutes. But you can't claim Jesus tried not to be approachable ? you must run a lot, if that's your reaction to anyone who dresses in ordinary clothes. I really feel sorry for you ( seriously ).

¤The M*** JER* ** **¤

So lets see clothing bla... I would rather be in a kilt anyways or a toga or a prist rob. Would be alot more comfterbul. Thats what I mainly dress as. The more comfterbul the better. Cloths are ment to cover you up anyways (So why be uncomfterbul)? so lets see what was the point in this post? I forgot... I should be working on game not here with this.

NO NO im here to warm up my fingers I forgot. Watashi wa baka na. You know I think we have alot of missunderstandings just cuz this is the net. I bet if I met you in person we could take care of alot of our probs in a simple conversation. Im a blunt and exajerating person. Most everyone knows me as a pain in the butt that gets people to laugh or is in his corner brooding over something. (NICE SPOT OF TEA) yes I do like that, two spoons of sugar for me please!

k im gone for now need to work

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2Samuel C6 V14, Psalm C149-150, Ecclesiastes C9 V5, Ezekiel C2-3&C39, Matthew C6 V25, Luke C19 V11, 1Corinthians C13, Galatians C5 V22, Ephesians C3 V9, Colossians C1 V16, 1Peter C3 V3, Revelations C10

So you're saying you WOULDN'T find it hard to approach me then ?

Anyways you just said if someone is in a subculture then they need to grow up.

Absolutely.

Your in a subculture to and so is everyone.

Mine is called the church. Beyond that, I do not seek to identify myself by what I do, what music I like or anything else. I seek to make those things irrelevant so that I am known as a Christian, and so that I can be 'all things to all men'.

I dress the way I do becase I am more aprochibul by kids then.

Rubbish. I am approachable by youth, and I am old. You are possibly more approachable by the subsection of youth that dress like you, but you're also no different to them in their eyes if you present yourself the same as them.

I like youth alot more then old people. Old people are set in their ways most the time and not worth the headake to me.

A lot of young people are insufferable to me, because they think they know more than they do. But I will make the effort to understand where they are at, rather than judge them. I'm only 33, and I can see how much society has changed since I was young. Imagine how hard that is for someone who is 50, or 70 ? ( by the way, am I old to you ? )

I tend to try and not mess with them. Which is funny cuz im here arguing about this crud with you. Ill probably get flack for posting this too.

Well, probably. I think you're taking a selfish view. I have a question - when someone becomes a Christian, why don't they just die so they can enter the new age ? Is it to preach the Gospel ? To all people, or just those we have a lot in common with ?

So lets see clothing bla... I would rather be in a kilt anyways or a toga or a prist rob. Would be alot more comfterbul. Thats what I mainly dress as. The more comfterbul the better. Cloths are ment to cover you up anyways (So why be uncomfterbul)? so lets see what was the point in this post? I forgot... I should be working on game not here with this.

I prefer to be comfortable, in fact if I can work from home I tend not to wear anything ( sorry for the mental image ). I find jeans comfortable, and I find a suit comfortable, but that is just me. The point is not to have to wear a suit, or jeans, or anything else, but to choose something that does not turn people away from you, or the Gospel.

NO NO im here to warm up my fingers I forgot. Watashi wa baka na. You know I think we have alot of missunderstandings just cuz this is the net. I bet if I met you in person we could take care of alot of our probs in a simple conversation.

Absolutely - it's always hard to talk online, even in a chat program, let alone a board like this.

Im a blunt and exajerating person.

Nothing wrong with being blunt a lot of the time, but I find it hard to tell when you are exaggerating.

BTW have you noticed that I try to use words that you have spelled wrong ? Just trying to help :-)

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

MeanOz I say "Bla bla bla to you" and a happy new year

I have to work and this is going no where. You wont see anymore post from me here nore will I come back to this page to read anything so that I wont be tempted to post on this.

Till some other debate

Angel

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2Samuel C6 V14, Psalm C149-150, Ecclesiastes C9 V5, Ezekiel C2-3&C39, Matthew C6 V25, Luke C19 V11, 1Corinthians C13, Galatians C5 V22, Ephesians C3 V9, Colossians C1 V16, 1Peter C3 V3, Revelations C10

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MeanOz I say "Bla bla bla to you" and a happy new year

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I bet you do read this :-)

Anyhow, I'm sorry you have no response for what I am trying to say, and that you seem to percieve I am trying to attack you - I am not. I'd like to point out some fundamental truths, but the point is to encourage you in good, not to attack you.

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hey come as you r who realy gives a dang what you look like i dont care if you look like adalf hitler just as long as your saved man are you people that dins "rolls his eyes and gets a whatever look"

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Did you mean are, really, adolf, you're, dense ? Punctuation also helps make your posts readable.

Anyhow, the way someone looks has nothing to do with salvation, God isn't coming back for only middle class people by any stretch of the imagination. My point is more that if people are saved out of the world, then why do they want to identify with worldly subcultures, and how does this equate to being 'all things to all men' ? Sure, there is variation in the church, we are all individuals, but I think people who go to extremes to be 'different' from average people in how they look and act have obviously missed something about what the church is about.

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^ Some of us don't do this just to stick out of the crowd. I do this because personality wise I am very different from alot of people, it's not so I can shock people with my shaved head, black nails, dark poetry and dark clothes, it's because I'm lead to it. I feel free in it, I can express myself, have a deeper relationship with God and my Fiance and alot more things.

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Lead by what ? Your relationship with God is made deeper by painting your nails black ? I'm struggling to understand this.

As an ex-head banger ( i.e. still love the music but no longer dress the part ), I am intensely amused by the fact that people in these sub cultures think they are expressing their individuality when in fact they are subject to far stricter mores than the mainstream. As an example, when Metallica bought out the Load album, very little was said about how they went from metal to alternative, and much was said about how they cut their hair. A metal band with short hair ? Unthinkable !!!

Anyhow, I am seriously trying to understand all of this, I'd love to know how you feel your relationship with God is enhanced by your pursuit of a worldly subculture.

When God heard my cries in the night he sent who is now my Fiancé, and through her God worked miracles in me. I ditched the church after 10 years of spiritual pain, starvation and tormenting. I swore never to listen to what anyone (or any subcultures or cultures) had to say when it comes to myself and how I have a relationship with God. You have it backwards, my relationship with God isn't enhanced when I paint my nails black, I paint my nails black because God is bringing out the part of me that was squashed for all those years. I am only running towards God, while this is happening He's bringing what I can say the real me out and that brings me even closer to Him.

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My entire life I've been squashed by Christians by expressing myself, I have a deep understanding of things, for those people it was wrong to express my love and excitement for God the way I did, I was squashed into following the man-made rules and regulations of religion. This eventually turned me away from God and turned me off from Christianity and Christians for several years.
[/quote[

I have been careful to differentiate between being extreme and the (wrong) idea that God is interested in conservative middle class people only.

[quote]
When God heard my cries in the night he sent who is now my Fiancé, and through her God worked miracles in me. I ditched the church after 10 years of spiritual pain, starvation and tormenting. I swore never to listen to what anyone (or any subcultures or cultures) had to say when it comes to myself and how I have a relationship with God. You have it backwards, my relationship with God isn't enhanced when I paint my nails black, I paint my nails black because God is bringing out the part of me that was squashed for all those years. I am only running towards God, while this is happening He's bringing what I can say the real me out and that brings me even closer to Him.

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I'm sorry, but all of this is in your mind. I am sorry you've been oppressed by narrow minded people, but I doubt God wants to bring out the part of you that stops you obeying part of the Bible. I'm not saying your personality has to change, or the music you like, or the sort of things that interest you, only that in the Gospel such things run a distant third to Christ. When I was saved all I wore was heavy metal t-shirts. You know the thing - demons, skulls, anything 'evil' looking. I still like that sort of music ( although I have my whole life drawn the line at music that sings against God or for the Devil, such as Slayer or Marilyn Manson ), but I stopped wearing the T-shirts because right or wrong, I don't want people to discount my message by what I look like. The problem is theirs, not mine, but I'm more interested in seeing souls saved, or at least the Gospel represented faithfully than in 'expressing myself' by an extreme appearance which would bring Christ into disrepute.

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being all things for all men huh well im being a goth HAR HAR HAR HAHAHAHAHAHA

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I'm sorry that you clearly have some issues. Does this mean you're not a Christian, or that you think what the Bible says is a joke ?

Oz you have to be joking me with the post you made to me. Stop being so bloody stubborn and open up to what I'm saying, being the way I am is the way I've always been (until I was crushed for 10 years by people like yourself), I've been able to reach out to so many people because of what God is doing in my life with bringing my personality out. If you can't get this right "in your mind", then I'm going to stop the conversation entirely because it's a worthless conversation that will just bring me to dislike you strongly, and I don't want that at all. I have no idea where you get all this stuff from me being more separate from God and disobeying the Bible because I'm growing into God and God is working through me, healing me and training me. You can't have any objective word in how God is expanding in my life because you have no idea what's happened in my life and you can't tell God how to work in some ones life and if it's God or not! It's not your way or the highway Oz, stop being so legalistic, God can't reach out to people who are so blind set in their own ways which they think is "right". I'm not pressuring my views on anyone and your leaping all over me like I'm a spawn of satan, settle down man, you are not right, you have the issue.

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Oz you have to be joking me with the post you made to me. Stop being so bloody stubborn and open up to what I'm saying, being the way I am is the way I've always been (until I was crushed for 10 years by people like yourself), I've been able to reach out to so many people because of what God is doing in my life with bringing my personality out.

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You're saying that through expressing yourself in this way, you're becoming more outgoing and able to speak to people ?

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If you can't get this right "in your mind", then I'm going to stop the conversation entirely because it's a worthless conversation that will just bring me to dislike you strongly, and I don't want that at all. I have no idea where you get all this stuff from me being more separate from God and disobeying the Bible because I'm growing into God and God is working through me, healing me and training me.

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I'm just trying to point out that the Bible says to be judged for nothing but the Gospel, to make sure we are blameless in every other part of our lives. I have also been careful to point out that is someone judges you by how you look, they have the problem. The point I am making is not that you are wrong, but that you should love the unsaved enough to be willing to change even though they are wrong, to make you better able to present the Gospel to them. I've also been careful to say I'm not suggesting you need to look middle class, but that the image I get from what you're saying is a lot more extreme than I would consider wise, and that I speak from my own experience.

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You can't have any objective word in how God is expanding in my life because you have no idea what's happened in my life and you can't tell God how to work in some ones life and if it's God or not! It's not your way or the highway Oz, stop being so legalistic, God can't reach out to people who are so blind set in their own ways which they think is "right". I'm not pressuring my views on anyone and your leaping all over me like I'm a spawn of satan, settle down man, you are not right, you have the issue.

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You obviously take your appearance far to personally to discuss it - when I thought I was a Christian but didn't have the Holy Spirit I was the same about my 'look'. I realise now I was hiding behind it, and when I recieved the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, part of the instant change in my life was to not care what I looked like, and to be confident to deal with people in my life, including people I did not know.

To recap - in my life, I knew that God accepted me for what I was inside, and I would always look to know people before coming to any conclusions based on anything as transient as clothing or hair. However, I also realised that the people who had witnessed to me had come to a point where they thought I would drift away without obeying the Gospel, because I looked like such a rough nut. Such a look would not inspire people to take me seriously, or to believe what I have to say about God or salvation. Even though I knew they had the problem there, I changed my look of my own accord to be something more useful to God. I am still able to speak to people who look a bit extreme, usually the fact that I am willing to approach them is enough to break the barrier they may percieve by my lack of a particular hairstyle. I can also speak to older people who would have trouble looking through my hair or clothes if I looked now the way I used to.

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You're saying that through expressing yourself in this way, you're becoming more outgoing and able to speak to people ?

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I'm saying that now that my personality is more outwards and that God is working on bringing it out even more and working on it, that I'm not afriad to talk to people about God and issues related to them.

If God wants me to change the way I look then I will, I see a whole world of unreached to teens/adults that I can talk and relate to and they're not afriad of me and I'm not afriad of them. I'm not going to be stubborn and keep the way I look and defy God if He tells me to change. However I'm not going to change if a Christian comes up to me and says "I don't like the way you look, you dress in dark clothes and look evil!".

I have some self esteeme issues from time to time with my looks, but that's about it.

I know mack some, not so well, but enough to know his heart and his heart for God.. I disagree with him on some stuff,and he with me.. i don't think he is overly goth, though as in my original long post, i pointed out some 'danger' or be aware points.. I personally am thankful for macks friendship and accountibility in my life, and though his poetry may be full with dark words sometimes, it potrays some deep truths about Christ of GOd.. i personally believe that as he grows deeper with Christ his outlook will change some , more towards the light, but also he won't fall into the trap of being nicey nicey fakey fakey. I think he has some areas to grow in with relationships with all strata of peoples, but so do I and i am sure you do also meanman.. its life.. and I believe that as he grows in that his worldview will become more balanced (at the moment i think its still healthily balanced )... anyhow i appreciate the friendship and heart of this man of God.

mack

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(from mack)
I swore never to listen to what anyone (or any subcultures or cultures) had to say when it comes to myself and how I have a relationship with God

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as for you my friend, this is one such area that you can take to God and grow.. when we swear anything, its dangerous , because we close up that area in our lives for God to deal with. so as a friend, i would encourage you to open your heart to this issue.. for when you swear like that, its full of rebellion.. i know its just a defense mechanism and i close up in similar ways, but the bible says that listening to people and cousellers is wise.. you don't have to accept curses that people may judge over your life, but i think being vulnerable is an important thing.. it means you will be hurt, but its definately worth it (ie especially in marriage, i get more hurt when i am vulnerble to my wife, but the rewards in quality of relationship and fulliment is awesome), any its worth it to listen to people, don't just accept a curse, but you can take the things away and submit the words (even if hurtful) and your heart and your attitudes at the foot of Christ..

love Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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I'm not going to be stubborn and keep the way I look and defy God if He tells me to change. However I'm not going to change if a Christian comes up to me and says "I don't like the way you look, you dress in dark clothes and look evil!".

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I am always concerned when people are waiting for God to 'tell' them stuff he already has told them (in the Bible), but I think Karl has put a nice end to this thread, so maybe we'll just leave it at that. It's obvious that I can't understand your world-view, because mine is of recieving the Holy Spirit and having the issues you raise all healed in one defining moment, and that you can't distinguish between what I am saying and someone judging you by your appearance.

meanman,
may i ask a personal question?
do you fellowship at ,or are associated with , or hold to the doctrines of the the revival centre?

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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meanman,
may i ask a personal question?
do you fellowship at ,or are associated with , or hold to the doctrines of the the revival centre?

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*grin* I have in the past not wanted to name where I go for two reasons.

The first is that I am more interested in discussing the Bible than church denominations.

The second is that the church I belong to is the subject of much misinformation online, only yesterday I was wondering if I should laugh or cry as I read all sorts of outragous lies on some cult site that named us, presumably on the say so of a disgruntled ex-member, which is much like asking Pauline Hanson about the Liberal Party IMO.

Anyhow, yes, yes, and yes.

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NO I DONOT think the Bible is a joke i just feel your only looking at that part of the bible in one way

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Fair enough. I look at this verse in a number of (mutually compatible) ways, but there's only one way in which it applies to this topic IMO. I'd be willing to listen if you believe I am misappropriating it.

Anyways it's seems that people from different denominations have different beliefs on the subject.

--D-SIPL

MMIO: If, because I have not spoken in toungues, that means I have not been "filled" with the Holy Spirit, so be it. I trust God enough that I know that if/when God wants me to be, he'll tell me, and these conversations and arguments aren't helping me at all. Thanks, I apreciate you wanting to help me, and God knows your heart. I've thought a great deal more about lots of things than I would have had you not been here! :-D

But I believe I AM a christian. Anyone can say I'm not, if they want, I dont mind. I am also a vegitarian. Some people will no doubt say "how can this be? the disciples ate meat and fish! So did Jesus!". True. However, being a vegitarian is because I (a) dont like the taste of meat and (b) dont like the idea. I think it is 99.99% impossible that the disciples listened to goth music, but I also doubt if they listened to mozart. This doesn't mean either are wrong.

Anyways, I dont think I meant to say all that much. Anyways, I hope this message doesn't spark off an argument. If it does, just blaim me. :-D

Dan

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7 days without prayer makes one weak.

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Um... Being a christian should have nothing to do with what music you listen to or how you dress. As I understand it, being a christian means you believe in Jesus. I dont want to start turning this topic into a speaking in toungues/vs not convo again, but that is *my* take on it.

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I agree with the former, to a point. However, my point was that part of *walking* as a Christian means not needing worldly subcultures, regardless of what music we like, and continue to like/listen to, and certainly not seeking to identify oneself with anything apart from Christ that could divide.

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MMIO: If, because I have not spoken in toungues, that means I have not been "filled" with the Holy Spirit, so be it. I trust God enough that I know that if/when God wants me to be, he'll tell me, and these conversations and arguments aren't helping me at all. Thanks, I apreciate you wanting to help me, and God knows your heart. I've thought a great deal more about lots of things than I would have had you not been here! :-D

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The thing is, God HAS told you - you own a Bible, yes ? Why should He appear before you and tell you what it says ? The Bible indicates He sends His servants to present His message.

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But I believe I AM a christian. Anyone can say I'm not, if they want, I dont mind. I am also a vegitarian. Some people will no doubt say "how can this be? the disciples ate meat and fish! So did Jesus!". True. However, being a vegitarian is because I (a) dont like the taste of meat and (b) dont like the idea. I think it is 99.99% impossible that the disciples listened to goth music, but I also doubt if they listened to mozart. This doesn't mean either are wrong.

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I NEVER said that listening to goth music ( whatever that is ) is wrong, or evil. I like heavy metal, for goodness sakes !!!

On another front, if you ARE a Christian, then none of my posts will change that, and the reverse is also true. Hence the need to make sure we've got it right from the only source that matters, i.e. the Bible.

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7 days without prayer makes one weak.