General Christian Discussions

Demonic Nightmares – InsanePoet

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
I want to know what you guys think of demonic nightmares. You know, terrifying dreams at very young ages.

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Victory Infinitum

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
its hard question to answer...
the spirit rhealm is real and powerful..
and satan is out there to destroy and devour all
(but God is real, and greater is He that is in us than He that is in the World)
when i talk about the things of satan, i always want to put it into perspective , and give glory to God , and not speak fear into anybodies life.

one thing.. if a child is having demonic nightmares.. it doesn't mean that child is possessed..
it just means that for some reason that child is vulnerable... maybe because of issues in his life(family abusive) or because he is in an living enviroment where its spiritually dark.. (i.e parents have let very unholy things into their lives/house)..

i can't say it is this reason or that.. but if you go into such a situation ,and pray to God, he'll often give you dicernment..

let me give you an example from here about a few months ago..

one of my friends works for the government as a couseller, they had a 4 year old child that was having horrible nightmares and it affecting his personality.. the family weren't christian.. but they gave my friend the permission to pray and do what was needed.

God impressed upon her that there was something spiritually wrong in the house, an item that needed removed.. she asked the parents if it was ok to get our pastor in.. our pastor came.. before doing anything explained everything, explained God's love for them and the gospel in a non forceful way, and had their permission every step of the way..

they found out that the kid had a dream catcher above his bed..
so they said asked if they could burn it, the parents agreed, they threw it in the fire.. it would not burn.. so after a while, they prayed over it then it burned.. the child has not had any nightmares since..
and his personality has become normal again (cause he's not living in fear of these horrible nightmares)

some people may say that dreamcatchers are neutral, i'm not fanatical that i would blame everything on such things people have.. but when God leads you to something, you deal with it, also i wouldn't have one in my house because i know their history and what they were used for.

its just one case..
my mother as a child lived in a ghost house (or lets say demons). none were christians at this time.
my aunt used to see an image of the devil on the wall often and it would torment her.. my grandmother would wake up with this severed hand in her bed everyday.. at night the cupboards would swing open and shut and clang and dishes would break..
mum would hear footsteps in the hall when nobody was there..
one day the clock said 9 oclock and mum heard footsteps and got up and nobody was there, nobody in the whole house, but the car was there.. next day her parents told her they had been in theliving room the whole night..

a story difficult to beleive i must admit.. i don't understand how it is, but i do understand that it was heavily demonic, and that any ghosts aren't actually of people that died, but just demons or familar spirits..

and that my God is bigger, more powerful, and that a christian could go into thaat house, and pray those spirits out and it would be dealt with..

Karl..


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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Veritech

Member

Posts: 208
From: Lockport, NY
Registered: 01-20-2001
In my opinion, it depends on if you are saved or not. If you are saved, and having nitmares constantly, it could be a demon sent to harass you. If not, well, your fair game to the devil if your not saved. But i definitly think that dreams can be troubled by demons when your saved as well as when your not saved. the reasons behind the attacks? no clue really, all i know is that the devil trys to exploit our weaknesses in any way he can. I personally have only had extremly bad nitmares on 2 or 3 occassions. I was saved at a young age, so i know i was saved when i had these bad dreams. Im my case, i woke very scarred, and continued to be nervous for a week. then i asked my parents if there was something i could do about it, and they said to pray. So I prayed God would give me good dreams of Him, and his wisdom, and to place angels around me to guard me. the fear left instantly, and i have not been troubled by dreams much since.

Veritech

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"If you even breathe a word of what you've heard here, I hope Gandalf will turn you into a spotted toad, and fill the garden full of grass-snakes" - "Fellowship of the Ring" by JRR Tolkien (p91)

Rat?
Junior Member

Posts: 8
From: Hull, Yorkshire, United Kingdom.
Registered: 07-24-2001
Whats a Dream Catcher?

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Lalalalalalalala Pancakes AGAIN!

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
1/ Dreams are dreams, nothing more. There is Biblical precendent for God using dreams to tell people things, but not of the other side having that ability, that is one on a long list of things people think the devil can do, when in fact he is 'prince of the air', his ability is to lie, and it seems a lot of people are being lied to.

2/ In the same line, there is NO chance of the devil or his little wizards doing ANYTHING to someone who is saved, in ANY capacity. That is the most faithless idea I have ever heard.

Dreams are your subconscious working out stuff, and if you spend your daylight hours thinking you're saved, but the devil can get you, it's not surprising those ideas would come out in your dreams. If you're a Christian however, it's just not true. If you're not, it's still not true, you're just going to the same place the devil is.

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
2/ In the same line, there is NO chance of the devil or his little wizards doing ANYTHING to someone who is saved, in ANY capacity. That is the most faithless idea I have ever heard.

So are you trying to say that just because your saved the devil will leave you alone... don't think so mate. I beleive he can't touch you if you pray protection over yourself (Armour of God), but if you don't pray protection over yourself then your leaving yourself wide open for the devil to attack.

Just my opinion.

--D-SIPL

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
Satan is only going to harass you more if you are a Christian. The more you grow, the more Satan will try to destroy you.

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Victory Infinitum

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
Oh, I don't mean harass in a physical scence.

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Victory Infinitum

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
Let me tell you my story.

I remember having reoccuring dreams where there was a peacful land, but then there was this hidious laughing, and this massive dark figure would come and burn everything. There was lots of death and destruction. I then woke up very afraid. This happened when I was 4-5. I was just recently saved, and I remember that some of my first prayers where to not have nightmares.

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Victory Infinitum

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
2/ In the same line, there is NO chance of the devil or his little wizards doing ANYTHING to someone who is saved, in ANY capacity. That is the most faithless idea I have ever heard.
[/B]


satan can't touch our spirit and he cannot kill us (unless he gets pacific permissions to do so). However he can still taint our souls, effect us, torment/torture us for the rest of our lives.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
:quote:
So are you trying to say that just because your saved the devil will leave you alone... don't think so mate. I beleive he can't touch you if you pray protection over yourself (Armour of God), but if you don't pray protection over yourself then your leaving yourself wide open for the devil to attack.
:/quote:

Your opinion shows a lack of faith in God. pray protection, what rubbish is that ? The BIBLE says to break into a house, a robber must first overcome the strong man of the house, which in the case of a Christian, is God.

You think you're saved to a world of worrying if it's been to long since you 'prayed protection' for yourself ( this idea/term is not in the Bible ) ? God is greater than that.

:quote:
Satan is only going to harass you more if you are a Christian. The more you grow, the more Satan will try to destroy you.
:/quote:

I pity you - how could you believe such a thing ? What does salvation mean to you ? Does it mean freedom, or a chance for the Devil to attack ? What rot - the Devil is not even ABLE to attack you, except through lies, like the ones you are currently buying into.

:quote:
satan can't touch our spirit and he cannot kill us (unless he gets pacific permissions to do so). However he can still taint our souls, effect us, torment/torture us for the rest of our lives.
:/quote:

Does ANYONE here have faith in God ? Satan can LIE to you, he is the prince of the air. He seems to have a lot of success with people on this group.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
quote:
Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
:quote:
So are you trying to say that just because your saved the devil will leave you alone... don't think so mate. I beleive he can't touch you if you pray protection over yourself (Armour of God), but if you don't pray protection over yourself then your leaving yourself wide open for the devil to attack.
:/quote:

Your opinion shows a lack of faith in God. pray protection, what rubbish is that ? The BIBLE says to break into a house, a robber must first overcome the strong man of the house, which in the case of a Christian, is God.

You think you're saved to a world of worrying if it's been to long since you 'prayed protection' for yourself ( this idea/term is not in the Bible ) ? God is greater than that.


you are right on track mean man.. God's protection for us isn't about us praying enough protection or doing enough rituals. some people yes, get fearful because they start thinking they haven't done enough.. our salvation is sealed
and God looks after his children.. but i don't think the guy was meaning it in that way mean man.. and you are judging
him that he has a lack of faith in God, and that it is all rubbish... thats not very christian things to say.. christians
do often need to correct each other, but the keyword is in LOVE..


devil will devour us

quote:
Originally posted by MeanManInOz:

:quote:
Satan is only going to harass you more if you are a Christian. The more you grow, the more Satan will try to destroy you.
:/quote:

I pity you - how could you believe such a thing ? What does salvation mean to you ? Does it mean freedom, or a chance for the Devil to attack ? What rot - the Devil is not even ABLE to attack you, except through lies, like the ones you are currently buying into.



I disagree meanman... let me use an illustration.. if you go out into the middle of the freeway, and don't take the precautions
that you are taught, whether it is by choice or out of ignorance doesn't matter, you will likely get run over and killed, and
if there is somebody out there on that road who hates you, they'll try to run you over.. sure you are a christian and you
go to heaven..

but our choices do affect things.. i believe that even in the midst of suffering (and God does let suffering happen to christians, sometimes to build their faith, othertimes for the cause of Christ, and many other reasons).. i believe that if God wasn't
protecting us we'd be devoured in an instant.. i trust my God to keep me safe..
however i do have choices, i can choose to walk with Him or rebel..
if you have a child you can choose (whether with bad intent, or just ignorance) to neglect it, and the cosequences are not good. putting on the armour of God and 'praying protection' is some of the wise things we do as christians.. choices we
make because we realise that there is a spiritual battle going on.. sure God will protect us, and often protect us from our
own negligant attitudes, however we are still responsible for ourselves too..

and the devil is out their to devour us, if we choose to submit ourselves to things of the devil, we are letting him have a foot in our lives, and he will destroy us (he can't take our souls) to the maximum possible... God will often let a little bit through as
well..

paul says in thessolanians i think, that the 'devil stopped him cooming back'.. the devil even had some power over this man of God (of course God could have stepped in and bonked the devil on the nose and said NO)..

the devil does try to attack Christians more when they are being succesfful, because you are a threat to him when you
are living submitted to Christ.. he will use everything he can do to mess you up, distract you, Lie to you as you say
etc... and God is bigger and I do have faith in God, and trust him, but i will not perish for lack of knowledge, i will not
let wisdom leave the room.. God tells us so much about the devil and about spiritual warfare and he gives us some
responsibility as to how we live, and equipts us to be more than overcomers..


quote:
Originally posted by MeanManInOz:

:quote:
satan can't touch our spirit and he cannot kill us (unless he gets pacific permissions to do so). However he can still taint our souls, effect us, torment/torture us for the rest of our lives.
:/quote:

Does ANYONE here have faith in God ? Satan can LIE to you, he is the prince of the air. He seems to have a lot of success with people on this group.


I know many in here that have faith in God.. we all have lies in our lives , for we aren't perfect and don't have perfect deception
but you are accusing alot of people of things that aren't true. or not true to the extend you are saying..
I would ask meanman that if you wish to correct people here, that you would first pray for them, pray for understanding for them, and pray that God would give you the wisdom and ability to do it in love, and not condemnation with condecention..


sincerely,

Karl

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
Hiya Karl

and you are judging
him that he has a lack of faith in God, and that it is all rubbish... thats not very christian things to say.. christians
do often need to correct each other, but the keyword is in LOVE..

I admit I was probably harsh, but it's kinda annoying to me that people can have so little faith that they talk about the devil instead of God. You know, you are also judging this person. Judgement cannot be avoided without being wishy-washy and having *no* opinion. People loved to hear Jesus speak, because He spoke with authority.

I disagree meanman... let me use an illustration.. if you go out into the middle of the freeway, and don't take the precautions
that you are taught, whether it is by choice or out of ignorance doesn't matter, you will likely get run over and killed, and
if there is somebody out there on that road who hates you, they'll try to run you over..

And if my child tries to do that, as her father, I stop and protect her. My Father never sleeps....

but our choices do affect things.. i believe that even in the midst of suffering (and God does let suffering happen to christians, sometimes to build their faith, othertimes for the cause of Christ, and many other reasons).. i

Of course they do - the ONLY thing that can seperate us from the love of God is us. The Bible doesn't say God LETS bad things happen to us, it says bad things will happen to us the same as they do anyone else. God provides a way out.

putting on the armour of God and 'praying protection' is some of the wise things we do as christians..

What is 'praying protection' ? Putting on the armour of God is done by praying in the Spirit, that's what Ephesians says. Praying in the Spirit = speaking in tongues.

and the devil is out their to devour us, if we choose to submit ourselves to things of the devil, we are letting him have a foot in our lives, and he will destroy us (he can't take our souls) to the maximum possible... God will often let a little bit through as
well..

He can't take anything, but you're right that it is his desire that we share in his fate. When you say 'he can't take our souls', do you mean it's not possible to lose salvation ?

the devil does try to attack Christians more when they are being succesfful, because you are a threat to him when you
are living submitted to Christ.. he will use everything he can do to mess you up, distract you, Lie to you as you say
etc... and God is bigger and I do have faith in God, and trust him, but i will not perish for lack of knowledge, i will not
let wisdom leave the room.. God tells us so much about the devil and about spiritual warfare and he gives us some
responsibility as to how we live, and equipts us to be more than overcomers..

The Bible does not say much at all, for good reason. It tells us the devil seeks to devour us, and it says other things that indicate he is able to lie to us, but nothing more. He can't attack you at all, let alone more. He can only lie to those who listen, which means when we become distracted from what is right. He can't put bugs in your code, or make your tyre flat, or disconnect your phone. He can just say 'did God really say', and thus pave the way for us if we choose to ignore God.

I know many in here that have faith in God.. we all have lies in our lives , for we aren't perfect and don't have perfect deception
but you are accusing alot of people of things that aren't true. or not true to the extend you are saying..
I would ask meanman that if you wish to correct people here, that you would first pray for them, pray for understanding for them, and pray that God would give you the wisdom and ability to do it in love, and not condemnation with condecention..

I admit that my last post was in anger. It really annoys me to see people give power to the devil that he does not have, especially as I have experienced churches that, to me, live in fear of the devil, almost as if they worry if they are betting on the right side of the struggle. The devil is without power as a result of Jesus' resurrection, a Christian is a person who experiences the benefit of that sacrifice, including a new life free from the powers of darkness. I'm sure that every poster here has some degree of faith in God, although the 'tongues' threads have established that Biblically speaking, almost everyone here is not a Christian. Nevertheless, my intention was to show the logical extension of the statements being made about the devil, not to suggest that people here actually consciously have no faith in God.

I'm sure this post will offend more people than the last one, however, to the degree that I posted in anger and without consideration of others, I apologise. Where I offend for saying what the Bible says, I am afraid I can offer no apology :-)

rowanseymour

Member

Posts: 284
From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Registered: 02-10-2001
quote:
Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
I admit I was probably harsh, but it's kinda annoying to me that people can have so little faith that they talk about the devil instead of God. You know, you are also judging this person. Judgement cannot be avoided without being wishy-washy and having *no* opinion. People loved to hear Jesus speak, because He spoke with authority.

Jesus said NEVER judge others. No exceptions to the rule. He had the authority to judge (which neither you or I do) but he didn't. Do you think he sat at the dinner table with all the sinners telling them how wrong they were ?

quote:
Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
I'm sure this post will offend more people than the last one, however, to the degree that I posted in anger and without consideration of others, I apologise. Where I offend for saying what the Bible says, I am afraid I can offer no apology :-)

I could take the bible right now and go find some prostitutes or homosexuals and tell them they are going to hell. And then in keeping with Matthew 7 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged", likewise God will condemn me to hell for all my many sins.

It IS possible to aid and advise others in their spiritual journeys even when we think they are completely wrong, without judging them. Pray for them and love them and let Jesus do the rest. I know this to be true because it is how I became a Christian. I was leading a rather reckless life of drink and drugs when I met some Christians. They never once critised me, not once, they just loved me and prayed for me. And that blew away all my misconceptions about Christians. If you ask the average non-believer why they do not go to church I garauntee the answers you will hear most often are "I don't want to be told I'm wrong" or "I don't want to be told I'm going to hell".

We should do everything out of LOVE, for God and for our neighbour and that includes posting on CCN. If you think I am judging you I apologize totally. The Lord knows I am far from a posotion to judge others.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
Jesus said NEVER judge others. No exceptions to the rule. He had the authority to judge (which neither you or I do) but he didn't.

Actually, He said 'judge not, FOR with the measure you judge, you will be judged'. If I say 'rowan, you're going to burn in hell', or I say 'rowan, you will spend eternity with God', either way, this is judgement. The point is not to claim to have no idea, but rather to let God's Word judge rightousness, rather than doing it based on our ideas. Jesus certainly did judge people, the word does not mean to put people down.

Do you think he sat at the dinner table with all the sinners telling them how wrong they were ?

That is not the only way to judge. When He said 'your faith has made you well', this was judgement, judgement of their faith. He judged it to be sufficient.

I could take the bible right now and go find some prostitutes or homosexuals and tell them they are going to hell. And then in keeping with Matthew 7 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged", likewise God will condemn me to hell for all my many sins.

And you'd be right. You'd be as right to say the same thing to a judge, or any other person who presumably lives a moral life but apart from Christ. How can we preach salvation without ( gently ) telling people the judgement of God on their life apart from Him ? Mind you, it's pretty obvious, everyone knows they are going to die :-)

It IS possible to aid and advise others in their spiritual journeys even when we think they are completely wrong, without judging them.

As soon as we think someone needs advice, we have judged them. As soon as we presume to help, we have judged that they need it.

Pray for them and love them and let Jesus do the rest.

So just pray, don't TELL anyone what the right way to go is ?

I was leading a rather reckless life of drink and drugs when I met some Christians. They never once critised me, not once, they just loved me and prayed for me. And that blew away all my misconceptions about Christians. If you ask the average non-believer why they do not go to church I garauntee the answers you will hear most often are "I don't want to be told I'm wrong" or "I don't want to be told I'm going to hell".

Fair enough - their testimony was obviously judgement to you. I am amused often at people who (correctly) state there can be no homosexuality in the church, but accept fornicators, or liars, or thieves. Sin is sin, our job is not to condemn sin, but show a better way. Our job within the church is to 'convince, reprove, rebuke, with all longsuffering and doctrine'. That's a paraphrase, I don't even know where it is in the Bible, but the word rebuke is certainly part of it.

We should do everything out of LOVE, for God and for our neighbour and that includes posting on CCN. If you think I am judging you I apologize totally. The Lord knows I am far from a posotion to judge others.

The Bible says we are going to judge the WORLD, and that judgement begins at the house of God. We should indeed judge each other, and be meek ( teachable ) when someone presumes to instruct us. However, I've already said I was not really doing those things as I should in my original post, and apologised for the manner in which I delivered what I had to say ( although in my defence, having covered this here before, I knew beforehand that no-one was going to agree with me anyhow :0) )

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
oh meanman,

there are truths in what you say,
but it seems so devoid of love..
i dicern that your heart attitude is not one of a servant leader
that Jesus is.
and as christians we do have authority, as you said Jesus spoke with authority. but we can also move in illegitimate authority .. (i.e a husband is to be the head of his wife, to lead and to love her, to love her as christ loved the church).. but he isn't to do it by imtimidating force, that is illegitimate authority..
you may have authority to bring corrections to God's childrens,
but i fear that it is illegitimate..
where do i base that on.. just from that it doesn't seem to be out of love.
but i am not your judge, and only God knows your heart. and only God knows mine. I am not saying my heart is purer than yours, for i know i am a man riddled with sin, and that my human heart is decietful above all things..

you may have a stronger faith than some in here, but if so you are accountible and responisble for that, and just like if you know that eating a meat sacrificed to idols doesn't really mean anything and your conscience is clear, but Paul urges you to give up your liberty for the sake of not causing one weak in the faith to stumble because of you,
please take that into consideration in your posts..

plus a big judgement you have made was when you said that from the 'tounges' thread that most people here aren't even christian..
i believe that they are.. and its important for christians to have that assurance, would you cause them to start doubting their salvation? to be undecided like a wave on the sea, up and down?

thank you however for your apology that you were wrong and answered in anger, that shows that your heart isn't as hard as it sometimes seems..

Be blessed, and may God work in and through you..

amen

Karl


------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 18, 2002).]

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
.

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 18, 2002).]

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
OzMan, instead of getting off in a tangent about something, listen to what I said:

My comment: satan can't touch our spirit and he cannot kill us (unless he gets pacific permissions to do so). However he can still taint our souls, effect us, torment/torture us for the rest of our lives.

Your comment: Does ANYONE here have faith in God ? Satan can LIE to you, he is the prince of the air. He seems to have a lot of success with people on this group.

Ok, does this seem a little stupid? like your just lashing me for no apparent reason? When we become a Christian then our Spirit belongs to God, satan can still do things to us, all the things I mentioned in my reply are all related to lying. He torments us with the lies of things that will probably never happen, he tries to effect us with lies and draw us to the flesh, once embeded in our flesh he tempts us more and lies to us saying that we need it.

Settle down man.

[This message has been edited by Mack (edited February 18, 2002).]

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
there are truths in what you say,
but it seems so devoid of love..
i dicern that your heart attitude is not one of a servant leader
that Jesus is.

You discern this, do you ? What ho. In other words, you don't like what I say. I dunno how many times I have to apologise for the *tone* of my original post, perhaps I would be better off if I was willing to edit my posts.

you may have authority to bring corrections to God's childrens,
but i fear that it is illegitimate..

By your example, are you claiming I am beating you up ? :-) To be honest, I could care less, the authority is God's Word, if what I say is Biblical then the Bible is where the authority lies.

where do i base that on.. just from that it doesn't seem to be out of love.

I can't help not being a wishy-washy, scared to talk straight 'christian', and I hope you don't believe Jesus was either.

you may have a stronger faith than some in here, but if so you are accountible and responisble for that, and just like if you know that eating a meat sacrificed to idols doesn't really mean anything and your conscience is clear, but Paul urges you to give up your liberty for the sake of not causing one weak in the faith to stumble because of you,
please take that into consideration in your posts..

No WAY. Paul was talking about things that are incidental - if I eat meat or not is incidental. If the devil can attack us to the degree others here claim is FUNDAMENTAL, and Paul's exhortation is to 'encourage, reprove, rebuke, exhort'. I need to look that up, I can see I'm going to be quoting it a lot.

plus a big judgement you have made was when you said that from the 'tounges' thread that most people here aren't even christian..
i believe that they are.. and its important for christians to have that assurance, would you cause them to start doubting their salvation? to be undecided like a wave on the sea, up and down?

I'd have them to be saved. I have two questions.

1/ If I am wrong, then do my words unsave anyone ? If I am right, does my keeping it to myself save them ?

2/ What is my duty in the Gospel - is it to accept any wind of doctrine, or stand up for what I have found to be true in the Lord ?

thank you however for your apology that you were wrong and answered in anger, that shows that your heart isn't as hard as it sometimes seems..

*phew* I was thinking you may have missed that bit. Again - the *tone* of what I said was more harsh than I would like, but I stand by my assertion that some people here seem from their posts to be decieved into thinking the devil has power to attack them when he does not, and I believe such a belief could only undermine peoples ability to walk with God. My desire is to point this out. My desire in the tongues threads was and is to show salvation to people as lost in sincere belief of a false gospel as I once was. It upsets me that people can't see past me saying 'you're not yet saved', to seeing that I'm saying 'you can be'. That people think I say these things to exhalt MYSELF is ludicrous to me, but I understand a kneejerk reaction when people are comfortable in their beliefs and don't want the status quo to be upset.

Ok, does this seem a little stupid? like your just lashing me for no apparent reason?

I guess the trouble with answering lots of people in one post is when I make a general comment, the last person I reply to could take it to be for them. I've already apologised ad infinitum about the tone of the post you refer to, so take it as read I am sorry, OK ? :-)

When we become a Christian then our Spirit belongs to God, satan can still do things to us, all the things I mentioned in my reply are all related to lying.

I'm sorry if this was clear in your mind, it was not clear in mine, especially in context of the thread ( dreams )

He torments us with the lies of things that will probably never happen, he tries to effect us with lies and draw us to the flesh, once embeded in our flesh he tempts us more and lies to us saying that we need it.

Essentially he simply encourages us to do things according to our desires where they deviate from the will of God. The interesting thing about sin is that it tends to involve things that seem all encompassing and desirable, and once they have been taken, taste rotten. Funny how God knows what is good for us, doncha think ? :-)

jake
Member

Posts: 11
From:
Registered: 02-18-2002
Well, I have to say this has been an interesting topic. Some things I would like to mention:

Jesus talked about how it would be fruitless for him to expel a demon if he were one of Satan's followers. Which makes sense, that would would be fighting against his own side (if he were a follower of Satan). So, then something must come to mind. That is, that the demons wouldn't waste much time picking on the non-faithful. This point is highlighted in the book of Job. Why do the evil people in the world lead easy lives? Why is it hard for the faithful? Obviously, because Satan is out to convert the faithful, using any means necessary. And he who says Satan does not have the ability to give people dreams sounds silly to me. He has the ability to cause all kinds of havoc. Why not the ability to influence dreams? Unless of course there is a scripture to prove me wrong in that... And the idea that those who are saved are free from the Devil's influence... Jee Wiz. Even Jesus was attacked by the Devil: when he was fasting. Of course Jesus repelled all of Satan's attempts at shaking him from his faith. And to talk of being saved? According to the bible, faith without works is nothing (James 2:14-26), so how can one be saved, without having the works: that is, what Jesus commanded at Mathew 28:19? I'm not saying that any of you are not involved in this work, it is just that the whole "I believe in Jesus, so I am saved" thing really bugs me. I really don't understand why some people can be blind to what the Bible says, as the Bible is the true source of information for Christians to follow these days.

Anyways... This is the first time I've posted here, so if I've offended anyone please don't get upset at me, and just knock it up to inexperience with this board. Also, if you feel I've said anything that doesn't sit right with you, I'd be happy to show in the Bible where I've come to the conclusions that I have.

Jake

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
Jesus talked about how it would be fruitless for him to expel a demon if he were one of Satan's followers. Which makes sense, that would would be fighting against his own side (if he were a follower of Satan). So, then something must come to mind. That is, that the demons wouldn't waste much time picking on the non-faithful.

I cold use reverse logic to prove the earth is flat - it simply does not work that way. The weak point is simply that your last statement is supposition. You're saying all the people Jesus cast demons out of were saved ?

This point is highlighted in the book of Job.

No, the point that is highlighted in Job is that the devil can do nothing without God's permission. You think God lets the devil oppress His children, whom His Son died for ?

Why do the evil people in the world lead easy lives? Why is it hard for the faithful?

They don't, and it's not. SOME evil people and SOME good people have hard lives, and SOME of each have easy lives, it's a case of 'time and chance' happening to every man. The faithful have a refuge in times of trouble, and know they will be provided a way out.

Obviously, because Satan is out to convert the faithful, using any means necessary. And he who says Satan does not have the ability to give people dreams sounds silly to me. He has the ability to cause all kinds of havoc. Why not the ability to influence dreams? Unless of course there is a scripture to prove me wrong in that...

You need to prove that satan no longer needs God's permission to attack the faithful. What does the BIBLE say he can do, in terms of havoc ?

And the idea that those who are saved are free from the Devil's influence... Jee Wiz. Even Jesus was attacked by the Devil: when he was fasting. Of course Jesus repelled all of Satan's attempts at shaking him from his faith. And to talk of being saved? According to the bible, faith without works is nothing (James 2:14-26), so how can one be saved, without having the works: that is, what Jesus commanded at Mathew 28:19? I'm not saying that any of you are not involved in this work, it is just that the whole "I believe in Jesus, so I am saved" thing really bugs me.

Me too. 'I believe in Jesus and so I am kinda saved, but I better watch out for the devil' bugs me more.

I really don't understand why some people can be blind to what the Bible says, as the Bible is the true source of information for Christians to follow these days.

Excellent advice - now where does the Bible say the devil can attack me, and in what ways ?

Anyways... This is the first time I've posted here, so if I've offended anyone please don't get upset at me, and just knock it up to inexperience with this board. Also, if you feel I've said anything that doesn't sit right with you, I'd be happy to show in the Bible where I've come to the conclusions that I have.

Hey, you better not offend anyone - that appears to be my job :-)

I'd love to hear where the Bible says I'm oppressed by the devil, because I've not noticed it at all :-)

jake
Member

Posts: 11
From:
Registered: 02-18-2002
quote:

I cold use reverse logic to prove the earth is flat - it simply does not work that way. The weak point is simply that your last statement is supposition. You're saying all the people Jesus cast demons out of were saved ?


I never said anything about the people Jesus cast demons out of being saved. In fact I don't believe that a person can be "saved" in the traditional sense. I've pointed out already that faith without works is nothing. So, just believing in Jesus and having faith does not save you. In order to be saved, the healed people must have gone on to do the work signifying their faith. But then, even so, they are not necessarily saved, because salvation is a *gift* from God, not something that can be earned. (Matthew 24:13, Ephesians 2:8-9, Mathew 28:19) We certainly know they had faith, because that was the basis for the healing of the woman with the flow of blood. I don't know what "reverse logic" is. If you don't mind, I'd like to hear you prove the earth is flat.

About Job, in chapter 20, Zophar accuses Job of being wicked and says that Job is getting what the wicked get for their wrongdoing. Job points out in verses 23/24 of chapter 21 that the wicked sometimes die in comfort, while the poor die in distress (verse 25).

quote:

They don't, and it's not. SOME evil people and SOME good people have hard lives, and SOME of each have easy lives, it's a case of 'time and chance' happening to every man. The faithful have a refuge in times of trouble, and know they will be provided a way out.

You are right to a degree. It rains upon the faithful and the unfaithful. Read 2 Timoth 3:12. I think you will see what I meant. Perhaps it can shed some light on your last statement as well.

quote:

now where does the Bible say the devil can attack me, and in what ways ?

1 Peter 5:8
Luke 8:12
John 13:2
Acts 10:38
Ephesians 6:10-18
1 Timothy 3:7
Hebrews 2:14
Revelation 2:10
Revelation 12:11
Revelation 12:12

Who cares what physical things the Devil can do... God can always repair any physical damage done, as was the case with Job. Satan's aim is to shake our faith, any way he can. Either by temptation, as with Jesus, which did not work, or by physical means, as in Job's case. The account of Job alone is enough to demonstrate the Devil's power physically over us. And yes, he did have to get God's permission first. John 13:2 shows that Satan has power over the hearts of men. Acts 10:38 shows that the Devil can oppress. Ephesians 6:10-18 shows the lengths we must go to to resist the Devil's "machinations." If the Devil had no sway, then surely these measures would not be necessary. 1 Timothy 3:7 talks of the snare of the Devil. Hebrews 2:14 declares outright the Devil's ability to cause death. Revelation 2:10 brings out that the Devil, through the governments, has the ability to throw the faithful in prison. Revelation 12:11, the Devil is misleading the entire inhabited earth... Revelation 12:12 - Why would there be "Woe" if the Devil had no power? I think that is enough to prove what I was saying.

Jake

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
I never said anything about the people Jesus cast demons out of being saved.

You said:

That is, that the demons wouldn't waste much time picking on the non-faithful.

Thus it follows that the people Jesus cast demons out of were the faithful, yes ?

I've pointed out already that faith without works is nothing. So, just believing in Jesus and having faith does not save you.

You need to take care here. James says faith without works is nothing, and he's (obviously) right. BUT we are saved by faith, not by works. The upshot of this is what James says 'show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works'. Works are a demonstration of our faith - faith exists only if we do something about it, but it is still by faith we become Christians, and in the strength of the Holy Spirit that we do the works of God.

In order to be saved, the healed people must have gone on to do the work signifying their faith.

Actually, salvation was not possible before Acts 2. These people needed to go on to obey the Gospel, in the Gospel age.

I don't know what "reverse logic" is. If you don't mind, I'd like to hear you prove the earth is flat.

Rather than thinking up a way to do that, I will illustrate with a biblical example. Late in the 90's a group claimed to know the date of Jesus return by using a scripture that indicated that non-believers had no idea of when Jesus would return. Reverse logic means to take a logical statement, reverse every part of it, and expect another true and logical statement, in this case, they came up with 'every believer knows exactly when Jesus will return'.

About Job, in chapter 20, Zophar accuses Job of being wicked and says that Job is getting what the wicked get for their wrongdoing. Job points out in verses 23/24 of chapter 21 that the wicked sometimes die in comfort, while the poor die in distress (verse 25).

An excellent reference, I wish I'd thought of it when talking to someone who said that evil people always have it easy in this life, and good people always have it tough.

You are right to a degree. It rains upon the faithful and the unfaithful. Read 2 Timoth 3:12. I think you will see what I meant. Perhaps it can shed some light on your last statement as well.

It was you ?

3:12 Now in fact all who want to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted

BTW I use www.bible.org to quickly quote verses.

Yes, the world will persecute anyone who stands up for Jesus, but that is all. This does not change that 'time and chance happen to us all', and as you pointed out, good and bad things happen both to good and bad people ( and there's plenty of good people outside the church as well ).

5:8 Be sober and alert. Your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is on the prowl looking for someone to devour.
8:12 Those along the path are the ones who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13:2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, that he should betray Jesus.
10:38 with respect to Jesus from Nazareth, that God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with him

I've skipped the rest, sorry, but I need to go to work.

Satan's aim is to shake our faith, any way he can. Either by temptation, as with Jesus, which did not work, or by physical means, as in Job's case. The account of Job alone is enough to demonstrate the Devil's power physically over us. And yes, he did have to get God's permission first.

I agree in part - it is obvious that if we decide to seek temptation, or put ourselves in a position of doing wrong, that the devil is able to work with us and to encourage our thoughts and desires away from God. However, your aside above is the core of the matter - unless you quoted something I didn't look up ( let me know if this is so ), NO NT verse or even any OT verse that is not talking specifically of Job, indicates any physical ability to harm on the part of the devil, and there's plenty of stuff in the NT which would leave me thinking there is no way God would let him. Remember the OT is full of things that happened as an example to us. The example from Job is that when bad things happen, it doesn't mean we have sinned, it means as Christians the end is better than the beginning, and things will end up better than they were. It also means that the path to escape problems is to loook up and worship God, not wallow in our problems.

John 13:2 shows that Satan has power over the hearts of men.

Actually, there are three things to note here -

1/ Judas betraying Jesus was part of God's plan, so it's entirely possible this happened because God allowed it
2/ This event happened prior to salvation being possible
3/ In our case, the Bible says if we resist the devil, he will flee from us. This ismply means at the first thought of wrong, we cast it aside and focus on what is right. It doesn't mean we have sweat pouring from our brow, Jesus already did that.

Acts 10:38 shows that the Devil can oppress

True, in the case of the unsaved.

Ephesians 6:10-18 shows the lengths we must go to to resist the Devil's "machinations."

What - have faith, spread the Gospel and pray in the Spirit ?

6:18 With every prayer and petition, pray at all times in the Spirit, and to this end be alert, with all perseverance and requests for all the saints.

By the way, how do you make sure you pray in the Spirit every time you pray ? What is praying in the Spirit ?

1 Timothy 3:7 talks of the snare of the Devil.

3:7 And he must be well thought of by those outside the faith, so that he may not fall into disgrace and be caught by the devil's trap.

I'm not sure what the devils trap is here, possibly pride ? Because a person who is not used to being reasonably well regarded may let it go to thier head when they have a position in the church ?

Hebrews 2:14 declares outright the Devil's ability to cause death.

2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), 2:15 and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

The point of this is that any power what WAS held has been broken by Jesus' life, death and resurrection. I don't think this indicates the devil could ever kill people though. If he could, why did he need permission to temporarily oppress Job, which is a much lesser power ?

Revelation 2:10 brings out that the Devil, through the governments, has the ability to throw the faithful in prison.

2:10 Do not be afraid of the things you are about to suffer. The devil is about to have some of you thrown7 into prison so you may be tested, and you will experience suffering for ten days. Remain faithful even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown that is life itself

Of *course*, this is the ability to influence people who walk in the flesh, which I do not dispute.

Revelation 12:11, the Devil is misleading the entire inhabited earth...

He's misleading most of them now, so what's the difference ? :-)

12:12 Therefore you heavens rejoice, and all who reside in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea
because the devil has come down to you!
He is filled with terrible anger,
for he knows that he only has a little time!"

Why would there be "Woe" if the Devil had no power?

He doesn't have *no* power, he has the power of lies.

I think that is enough to prove what I was saying.


It proves that the devil is able to influence people, but as I said to start, no exmaples exist in the NT that indicate the devil has any power to do anything physically to us, beyond trying to make us believe a lie. The power in this is if we choose to believe and act on a lie, and separate ourselves from God.

Salvation is a bit like a cruise ship. You know there is an ocean surrounding you ( the devil ), but if you choose to walk on the inside of the safety ropes, you don't need to worry about falling in. Sometimes there are rough seas and in such times of vunerability you may choose to stay further inside the boat, but the fact remains, if you put yourself in the right position, drowning is not an issue you have to worry about, you can just sit back and enjoy the ride.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
meanman,

consider maytrdom...

the devil has influenced other people, and causes them to pysically torture and kill God's faithful... The devil carefully schemed it and used people to carry out his plan... sure God lets His faithful be matyred.. for its part of God's greater plan, and he told us that we would be persecuted just like Jesus would, and we aren't to hold on to our lives...

you see the devil actively does his darndest to thwart the plans of God and to devour God's chosen.. God does protect us , however God is more interested in our souls than in our flesh... the devil thought he was having victory in having Jesus killed, but it was all part of God's plan and God allowed it... its the same with us.. God's power is greater, but the devil still has power, and God has given us wisdom and the ability to fight a part of the fight for ourselves, (and he is overshadowing us and protecting us)

and you say that the devil can't give dreams.. but you say he can LIE to us.. if he has the ability to put lying thoughts into men's minds when awake, why doesn't he have the same power to do it when men are asleep?

Karl

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
consider maytrdom...

What about it ? People get killed in some countries for not worshipping the great pumpkin ( or local equivelant ), that is part of the realm of human behaviour and not specific to Christians.

the devil has influenced other people, and causes them to pysically torture and kill God's faithful... The devil carefully schemed it and used people to carry out his plan... sure God lets His faithful be matyred.. for its part of God's greater plan, and he told us that we would be persecuted just like Jesus would, and we aren't to hold on to our lives...

Where does the Bible say that the Devil makes people kill Christians, or that being killed for your beliefs is an event specific to Christians ?

God has given us wisdom and the ability to fight a part of the fight for ourselves, (and he is overshadowing us and protecting us)

The only thing we have to do is walk in the Spirit, we do not need to fight in any way beyond giving our will to God, to live according to His ways.

and you say that the devil can't give dreams.. but you say he can LIE to us.. if he has the ability to put lying thoughts into men's minds when awake, why doesn't he have the same power to do it when men are asleep?

Because the power he has over us is by our choice - we cannot choose what we dream, but 'every man is drawn away by his own lusts and enticed', the devil is able to work when we choose to pursue our own over desires for things other than Godliness.


Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
the bible specifically says our persecution is because of Christ in those cases of matyrdom etc.. and the suffering 'in the realm of humanity' is because of sin and demonic influence..

sure we have to give footholds to the devil..
however if you have given a foothold to the devil in your waking hours,
what makes you think he still doesn't have it in your sleeping hours?

Karl

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
I prefer not to speculate beyond what the Bible tells me.

Also re: martyrs, some questions

1/ When Stephen died, where did he go ( answer: asleep in the Lord)
2/ Once this occured, could he lose his salvation (answer: no)
3/ Had he lived, could he have lost his salvation (answer: yes)
4/ Does the devil desire we die physcially or spiritually ? ( I'll let you answer that one ).

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
Meanman...

You said that we should not think about the devil. I think we should know our enemy, so we may better fight him

and also...

You said that salvation was not possible until Acts 2. I dissent. OT people went to heaven because they believed in the promise of God and had faith. If it were not possible then why were Elijah and Enoch translated, and explain the transfiguration to me. Abraham is alive, because he beleived, Jacob is alive, King David is alive. And they are all alive in Christ.

------------------
Victory Infinitum

Ascent
Member

Posts: 64
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
I had some demonic nightmares (and an experience or two) as a child.

I also had demonic nightmares for quite a few years after I was saved.

That's likely the result of the fact that I spent quite a few years before I was saved dealing with witchcraft and other occult things, and after I got saved, I did as much as I could to reach out, in particular, to people who were trapped in that kind of bondage and those lies.

Can Satan affect Christians? Absolutely. Does he have the power to destroy them like he did before the cross? Absolutely not.

If not, why did Jesus pray this?
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. (John 17:15)

He was praying that about the disciples -- but praying it not just for them, but "also for those who will believe in me through their message" (v20)

I'll be the first to admit that Satan is a defeated foe. He was stripped of his power at the cross. However -- Jesus was praying for our protection after He left. He said that he was not praying for the world, but for believers. (read all of John 17)

While the Word of God comes first, our experiences and our testimonies are important. How did they overcome Satan in the book of Revelation? By the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony. (Rev 12:11)

I think to dismiss the devil is to put yourself in a grave situation to be influenced all the more by him, and at the same time, you don't want to fall into the error of attributing power to him that he doesn't have.

It's easy to speculate and call someone faithless if you've never experienced demonic attack. I didn't experience much demonic attack when I was practicing witchcraft until the end when I started turning towards Christ. Know why? I wasn't a threat..... When I became a Christian, I became a threat, I got placed in the crosshairs. And that's fine. God taught me quite a bit through those dreams afterwards over a number of years. I don't have them anymore. I like to think it's because they've been dealt with and not because I'm no longer a threat to that kingdom.

I think that some people are more prone to be attacked in their dreams and their life in a more manifest way often because of some occult involvement in their past or their family line. You'd be surprised how many people that's true of.

Just my $0.02

-Ascent

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
I agree, Ascent. Satan doesn't care about people who are already doomed.

------------------
Victory Infinitum

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meanman...
You said that we should not think about the devil. I think we should know our enemy, so we may better fight him

The point is that (from the Bible), the fight is already won, and our job is simply to remain within the bounds of the victory, i.e. walk in the Spirit.

and also...

You said that salvation was not possible until Acts 2. I dissent. OT people went to heaven because they believed in the promise of God and had faith. If it were not possible then why were Elijah and Enoch translated, and explain the transfiguration to me. Abraham is alive, because he beleived, Jacob is alive, King David is alive. And they are all alive in Christ.

Hmmm... where does the Bible say this ? If salvation was possible before Christ, why did He did to come and die ? In fact, there is no such place as heaven, all the people you mention are in hell, which is the grave. I have no doubt that God has something good in store for them, but it is not the same as NT salvation.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
It's easy to speculate and call someone faithless if you've never experienced demonic attack. I didn't experience much demonic attack when I was practicing witchcraft until the end when I started turning towards Christ. Know why? I wasn't a threat..... When I became a Christian, I became a threat, I got placed in the crosshairs. And that's fine. God taught me quite a bit through those dreams afterwards over a number of years. I don't have them anymore. I like to think it's because they've been dealt with and not because I'm no longer a threat to that kingdom.

As you became a Christian, it's not surprising that the change in your life resulted in dreams about what you had been involved in. But while I have already apologied for the term 'faithless', I maintain that from the bible 'demonic attack' is simply a fantasy. I'm still waiting for proof from the Bible to the contrary.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
the bible says (can't remember if it was jesus, or paul or both who said it) that abraham was saved by his faith..
Jesus came to save sins, past , present and future..
i don't know how God chooses people before Jesus's Death or not..
i'd assume that moses and david etc would be in heaven, i'm not to sure about solomon... but i am not God. the bible isn't so clear on how faithful jews before Jesus were saved or not.. I just know that God is faithful and Just and i trust Him... i know that salvation isn't by works, and that people before Jesus couldn't believe on Him and be saved.. by maybe they could accept the saviour, the taker of their sins, through faith , because they knew and understood Jesus through the prophecies of HIm to come, i don't know.. don't pretend to know..

but meanman, it sounds like you are saying that adam, noah, david, moses, elijah etc WON'T be in heaven because there weren't around after Christ came to earth.

is this what you saying, or am i reading your wordswrong..
it is possible that that is true, the biible isn't so clear, but then Jesus or paul did say that abraham was saved... and i know its not by works but by faith..

however i don't worry about prejesus days, I trust God to take care of it, and i don't need to understand, since i live in a post-jesus-incarnate days and deal with people in that context.. and in this age, people need to accept Jesus Christ to be saved.


------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
the bible says (can't remember if it was jesus, or paul or both who said it) that abraham was saved by his faith..

It was Paul, and he said justified, not saved. In the OT you'll find the promises of God relate to blessing in this life, not eternal life.

Jesus came to save sins, past , present and future..

Where does it say that ? Why confuse the issue then ? Why not have Jesus come just prior to Adam ?

i don't know how God chooses people before Jesus's Death or not..
i'd assume that moses and david etc would be in heaven, i'm not to sure about solomon... but i am not God. the bible isn't so clear on how faithful jews before Jesus were saved or not..

The first problem is that we don't 'go to heaven', we sleep when we die.

I just know that God is faithful and Just and i trust Him... i know that salvation isn't by works, and that people before Jesus couldn't believe on Him and be saved.. by maybe they could accept the saviour, the taker of their sins, through faith , because they knew and understood Jesus through the prophecies of HIm to come, i don't know.. don't pretend to know..

I trust God as well, and I am sure He has something good for the people of the OT who followed Him. However, you virtually paraphrase the scripture that says people in the OT looked forward to what a Christian has today, wishing they could be part of it.

but meanman, it sounds like you are saying that adam, noah, david, moses, elijah etc WON'T be in heaven because there weren't around after Christ came to earth.

I'm saying I don't know exactly what will happen, but they will not rule with Christ. Even being around while Christ was on earth doesn't help, salvation began in Acts 2 when the Spirit was poured out for the first time.

is this what you saying, or am i reading your wordswrong..
it is possible that that is true, the biible isn't so clear, but then Jesus or paul did say that abraham was saved... and i know its not by works but by faith..

Abraham was justified by faith and all of the OT occured for our example.

however i don't worry about prejesus days, I trust God to take care of it, and i don't need to understand, since i live in a post-jesus-incarnate days and deal with people in that context.. and in this age, people need to accept Jesus Christ to be saved.

Exactly - I could not agree more. I'm not claiming to know exactly what God has in store for Abraham, but the Bible indicates it's not what we have recieved, and on the other hand, God is good, and just, and has something good in store for him, I am certain. Either way, it's not my job to worry about it :0)

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
meanman, i don't have thte time to study to answer all of your questions, i am sorry about that..

as for salvation beginning in acts2, i believe salvation begins and ends with Christ... what about the guy on the cross next to Jesus, he accepted Christ without great understanding but Christ never the less.

I believe salvation begins and ends with Christ, when he hung on that cross and said "it is finished (better translated accomplished" that was it.. the Holy Spirit is a gift to believers - and gives us various gifts to help outwork our purposes on earth, that came ,and for our purpose in the earth, Jesus died for our salvation thats where it begins and ends. HE is the alpha and Omega.

As far as Jesus should have come before Adam... I don't udnerstand everything in God's longsufferint and why he let history carry on the way he did (i understand a large part of it) and why he choose Jesus to come when he Did and not a day, a 1000 year or whenever before.. BUt i believe that God knew of the fall before he even created us, but he was willing to long suffer and worked a PERFECT plan of redemption which also meant sacrificing Himself... woooow..

as far as soul sleep goes..
going to heaven, i meant after the ressurection.. I don't believe people die and go to heaven and can look down upon the earth and see the rest of people.. however there a multitude of scriptures that seem to say we are asleep until the resurrection then others that seem to say that there are already people in heaven (like the maytrs who plead to God to bring justice, in revelations).. the bible seems to contradict itself and different churches argue back and forth over this one.. i just trust God.. whether i am asleep for how many years, or go striaght to heaven, to me it will be the same thing, i die, the next thing i know i am resurrected..

also i believe that God isn't restricted to time, time is a physical dimention of our universe, that had a begging and has an end (just like a peice of paper).. with some backgorund in quantum physics i think i understand it.. but its just my thoughts..
i don't think that God is watching the PRESENT meaning the present is feb 20th 2002... i think he can interact with history at any point.. (just liek you can interact with a piece of paper at any part of it).. a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day to the lord)..
so if God is greater than his creation, he exists outside of time , and not restricted by it.. time as we know it is something of our universe we live in..

so having said that heaven (if it is outside of our universe) is the same, and whether you go straight to heaven, or whether you sleep until the resurrection is exactly the same thing..

its just a thought, not a doctrine.. but be aware that the biggest group that pushes soul sleep is the cult of Jehovah Witnesses..

I think the danger in believing that people go straight to heaven, or are alive after they die, is people dealing with familiar spirits thinking its the person, or people trying to pray to their dead relatives in heaven...
but both of those above things are wrong because God said they are wrong, not because that person is asleep or in heaven or not..

but yeah i've gotten off topic.. well the topc has changed significantly anyhow..

Karl..

but meanman with many of your beliefs (namely believing that you must speak in toungse to be saved) i would say that belief is a hallmark of a cult..

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
as for salvation beginning in acts2, i believe salvation begins and ends with Christ... what about the guy on the cross next to Jesus, he accepted Christ without great understanding but Christ never the less.

As I often say, if Jesus gave special dispensation to this man to be saved despite not living in the Gospel age, or even obeying the Gospel, then that does not present a pattern, unless Jesus goes around appearing physically to other people and telling them they can disregard the New Testament also.

I believe salvation begins and ends with Christ, when he hung on that cross and said "it is finished (better translated accomplished" that was it.. the Holy Spirit is a gift to believers - and gives us various gifts to help outwork our purposes on earth, that came ,and for our purpose in the earth, Jesus died for our salvation thats where it begins and ends. HE is the alpha and Omega.

I agree with all of this, did you expect me not to ? Romans says that if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His - there is no salvation apart from the Holy Spirit, but the begining and end of salvation is Christ.

as far as soul sleep goes..
going to heaven, i meant after the ressurection.. I don't believe people die and go to heaven and can look down upon the earth and see the rest of people.. however there a multitude of scriptures that seem to say we are asleep until the resurrection then others that seem to say that there are already people in heaven (like the maytrs who plead to God to bring justice, in revelations).. the bible seems to contradict itself and different churches argue back and forth over this one.. i just trust God.. whether i am asleep for how many years, or go striaght to heaven, to me it will be the same thing, i die, the next thing i know i am resurrected..

also i believe that God isn't restricted to time, time is a physical dimention of our universe, that had a begging and has an end (just like a peice of paper).. with some backgorund in quantum physics i think i understand it.. but its just my thoughts..
i don't think that God is watching the PRESENT meaning the present is feb 20th 2002... i think he can interact with history at any point.. (just liek you can interact with a piece of paper at any part of it).. a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day to the lord)..
so if God is greater than his creation, he exists outside of time , and not restricted by it.. time as we know it is something of our universe we live in..

so having said that heaven (if it is outside of our universe) is the same, and whether you go straight to heaven, or whether you sleep until the resurrection is exactly the same thing..

its just a thought, not a doctrine.. but be aware that the biggest group that pushes soul sleep is the cult of Jehovah Witnesses..

It's unfortunate that the JW's get so much so totally wrong and so when they get something right, everyone assumes that to believe it means to be a JW. As for the rest, the key scripture is where it says Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection, and we will follow when He returns. It's clear that Jesus alone has risen from the dead and stayed there. Refer 1 Cor 15.

I think the danger in believing that people go straight to heaven, or are alive after they die, is people dealing with familiar spirits thinking its the person, or people trying to pray to their dead relatives in heaven...
but both of those above things are wrong because God said they are wrong, not because that person is asleep or in heaven or not..

That is indeed one danger, most funerals seem to speak in terms of the person being able to see us from heaven, and it's not true.

but meanman with many of your beliefs (namely believing that you must speak in toungse to be saved) i would say that belief is a hallmark of a cult..

I guess so, in that it is not part of the mainstream, but a 'narrow gate, and few there be that find it'. Cult is just a fancy word, a way of cutting off someones beliefs so that they don't require serious consideration. I take the word to mean groups that control and use people, and in that sense it is a false label, but to be honest, I don't care what people call what I am involved with. Christianity is called a cult in Acts, the word is meaningless - all that matters to me is if I am doing what the Bible says or not.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
you are right about the cult thing.. what i was trying to say is how unbiblical the beliefs you are claiming are in my understanding of biblical, the JW, mormons and lots of even more extreme cults also say "we just do what the bible says"-anybody can twist the words of the bible for their own uses, (you and ME also)

it is true that we should just live what the bible says..
however we shouldn't just emphasis certian parts..
do you admit that your understanding of the bible could be flawed?
I know my is, but I know that i have the foundational truths pretty well sussed, but grow in them daily , through the help of the HOly Spirit , and the time i put in it..

to be honest, with this whole tounges things..
(and this is from me - a guy who speaks it alot..)

me and kyrler and some others went through the greek and others of the corinitian and acts scriptures you pulled out.. it seemed your doctrines weren't based on interpreting the scriptures clearly but putting out some things from them that could or could not be there, while using those points you got from scriptures that aren't clear on your point, to refute other scriptures that were clear in what they said (i.e to one is given this gift, and to another another gift)..
kryler did a very good greek analysis of those scriptures and the context and i believe that it was more accurately interpretting these scriptures than you were.. also i did a lot of study on the cultural background of the situation in corinth and the early church and come to the same conclusions..

I must admit that if you are convinced that you need to speak in tounges to be saved, and thats your conviction, then stay strong to your conviction, but maybe you can go away (like i did when you brought up the subject) and submit your understanding of the issue and the bible to Christ and say to Him "teach me oh Lord" , offer your human understanding upon the alter... be willing the give it up for Christ if he chooses..
and i believe if anybody humbly and honestly does this, the Lord with answer them. Maybe the Lord will say "you are right, my son", or "you are wrong", "or you are right, but your heart motivation to the issue is wrong"
i dodn't know your heart
only God Does..

May our common Lord and Saviour, deal with each of us mercifully but yet firmly, and may we serve each other in love, like Christ did, and Lord help us to live daily taking up our cross, and nailing our flesh nature to it, and walking in your ways, by the Power of your Spirit amen..
Lord Honestly i don't know how to deal with this. i don't know if my words are wise, or if i'm partaking in foolish arguments , and if so Lord search my heart and deal with me gently but firmly and lead me in the truth and in love for my brothers in Christ..
AMEN

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
meanman
could you please learn to quote some, it gets confused reading which words are yours or a quote

if you don't want to use [ Q U O T E ] and [ / Q U O T E ]
you could just put the quote in italics with [ I ] and [ / I ]
or your words in bold with [ B ]..

respectfully Karl

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited February 19, 2002).]

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
Sorry, klumsy, I keep forgetting how to do it. I'm used to forums with a quote button, and I'm kinda slow... :-)

quote:

you are right about the cult thing.. what i was trying to say is how unbiblical the beliefs you are claiming are in my understanding of biblical, the JW, mormons and lots of even more extreme cults also say "we just do what the bible says"-anybody can twist the words of the bible for their own uses, (you and ME also)
it is true that we should just live what the bible says..
however we shouldn't just emphasis certian parts..
do you admit that your understanding of the bible could be flawed?
I know my is, but I know that i have the foundational truths pretty well sussed, but grow in them daily , through the help of the HOly Spirit , and the time i put in it..

By all means, everyone claims to do what the Bible says, including Catholics, Mormons and the KKK. That is why I seek to discuss things from the Bible, because I hope to instruct and may well learn something...

quote:

me and kyrler and some others went through the greek and others of the corinitian and acts scriptures you pulled out.. it seemed your doctrines weren't based on interpreting the scriptures clearly but putting out some things from them that could or could not be there, while using those points you got from scriptures that aren't clear on your point, to refute other scriptures that were clear in what they said (i.e to one is given this gift, and to another another gift)..

The biggest problem is that people are looking for an order, when the Bible provides a promise. The trouble is, I guess, that there is a lot of scripture which is clear as day ( 1 Cor 14:26, John 3, Mark 16 ), but as they are rejected by people, I go on to provide the full body of scripture which supports me, some of which is not as clear as you would like because it isn't written to prove the point, simply to refer to the obvious ( from the POV of the people it was written to ). I'm interested to know what you think 'every one of you has a tongue', or even 'you can all prophecy' means in your view, or how you pray in the Spirit whenever you pray, in accordance with Ephesians.

quote:

I must admit that if you are convinced that you need to speak in tounges to be saved, and thats your conviction, then stay strong to your conviction, but maybe you can go away (like i did when you brought up the subject) and submit your understanding of the issue and the bible to Christ and say to Him "teach me oh Lord" , offer your human understanding upon the alter... be willing the give it up for Christ if he chooses..

I love how people assume that I DON'T do this because I don't show any signs of changing my mind. As I have said before, I experienced the christianity presented to people on this site, on Gospel TV and in churches around the world, and I found that it has power to change only people who have power to change themselves. Either that or I sincerely called out to God and He ignored me.


Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
yep web based forums aren't the easiest to use

as yes i shouldn't assume that you don't.. though i say that and have others say the same think to myself... i know i don't take everything before God and act out of my flesh quite often..
if i have assumed where i shouldn't then i do apologize.. it is not good of to assume you have not taken these issues up with God when in fact you have humbled yourself before the throne of Christ, bared your soul, and cried out to Christ.. i am sorry..

it seems however that these is a fundamental doctrine different between you, me and everyone else in this board..
i believe in tounges, as it is a great gift, i differ with you in the fact that i don't believce it is neccisary unto salvation...
i don't believe like you that in many scriptures where it says BY the spirit, means to speak in tounges.. just as when somebody says this was written by Karl, doesn't mean i am typing it with my left or right hand or feet, or many even voice dictating it..
others would differ to the extreme saying its something only for the acts days..
however you are saying that if you don't speak in tounges you aren't saved which is indeed cutting down the the root of christianity.. and in the most part you re out all alone in this belief... and we cannot reconcile this difference, because its not just a matter of pre/post whatever rapture , soul sleep, or anything that doesn't affect our day to day life.. its an issue of salvation which is at the root of christianity.. its not a differene that many denominations have or not... but its something that you differ frm mostly all denominations and church leaders through history (pentecostal and charismatic alike)..

if when you have the time, would present a clear and complete expose on why you believe that without tounges you cannot be saved..
incuding your components on the relevant scriptures in 1 Cor 14:26, John 3, Mark 16
and Me and i am sure others will take this and study it, study it very prayerfully, and comment on the whole thing , rather than we go around and around in circles month after months, each pulling up a couple of new scriptures each time around..

i know for you to do something of that scale will take time and effort, its your choice, but i think for the sake of everybody in this group , who disagrees or is confused in these matters, and for christian unity it would be well worth it..

Karl


------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

i know for you to do something of that scale will take time and effort, its your choice, but i think for the sake of everybody in this group , who disagrees or is confused in these matters, and for christian unity it would be well worth it..

I'd be happy to. As you say, it will take some time, so I'll try to do it tonight after my house meeting. In the meantime....

quote:

i don't believe like you that in many scriptures where it says BY the spirit, means to speak in tounges.. just as when somebody says this was written by Karl, doesn't mean i am typing it with my left or right hand or feet, or many even voice dictating it..
others would differ to the extreme saying its something only for the acts days..

The fact is many scriptures say to pray in the Spirit, it is identified with putting on the armour of God, and keeping oneself in God's love. So if it's not defined by Paul in 1 Cor 14, where he says it is

a/ speaking in tongues
b/ different to prayer we understand,

then why is no other definition of the term used in the Bible ? Why are we told to pray in the Spirit ? Are you contending it means nothing ? *confused*

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
thank you for agreeing to do that.. i appreciate it. don't feel rushed.
take your time..

I am not saying that it doesn't mean nothing..

when i pray in tounges i know i am praying in the spirit, but also the holy spirit leads me to pray in my native tounge as well, and it is definately in the spirit, for just like prophecy, i may be praying words i wouldn't be expecting myself to pray..

Karl..
again i thank you for your cooperation with my idea..
b.t.w make it in a new thread..

God Bless

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

when i pray in tounges i know i am praying in the spirit, but also the holy spirit leads me to pray in my native tounge as well, and it is definately in the spirit, for just like prophecy, i may be praying words i wouldn't be expecting myself to pray..

Yes, the Spirit gives us words to speak as well, but the term praying in the Spirit, which the Bible urges us to do, cannot mean all prayer, otherwise there would be no point to encourage us to pray in the Spirit when we pray. The *only* Bible definition is tongues.

quote:

again i thank you for your cooperation with my idea..
b.t.w make it in a new thread..

I was going to :0)

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
What is with this time thing?!
IS not God above time?! The faithful of OT are surly with God. Jesus IS (not was) the God of Abraham and Jacob.

------------------
Victory Infinitum

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
amen

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

What is with this time thing?!
IS not God above time?! The faithful of OT are surly with God. Jesus IS (not was) the God of Abraham and Jacob

My poetic friend, I'm afraid that you're falling into the trap of believing things because they sound nice, instead of looking for what the Bible says. As I pointed out yesterday, the Bible says Christ alone has risen from the dead at this time, so where-ever the OT saints are going, right now they are not conscious, they are dead.

By the way, I didn't post anything last night as promised due to a late housemeeting and an article I needed to finish because of a publication deadline. I could have done it badly, but I decided to do it properly tonight.

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
Since you know so much, you should know that was from a Bible verse

------------------
Victory Infinitum

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

Since you know so much, you should know that was from a Bible verse

I know very little, but I know that Jesus is the God of Abraham and Jacob is a paraphrase of a Bible verse. I just didn't bother expounding it because I don't believe that you really care.

MadProf
Member

Posts: 181
From: Larnaka, Cyprus
Registered: 01-24-2001
just to take this topic back around to where it sort of began...

well, if Satan can lie to us when we are awake, which I think is something we agree on... and if (non-prophetic/etc, just normal) dreams are "only" our subconcious thoughts and imaginings about the days/lifes events, then it is quite possible to have very evil dreams because we have been thinking about evil things, so if we have gottern confused and our thoughts have wandered/been lead into areas which they shouldn't have done (eg evil/sin stuff), then our dreams will envolve these, which means that indirectly, those dreams have been influenced.

i used to play quite a lot of 3d FPS games, and read books which I dont think I should have read. I had a lot of dreams and thoughts about those things which troubled me. I think they were because of those books and games. So if I was tempted (I was) to think "well, playing a few hours of blowing up people wont hurt, its only a game" and then giving in to it (temptation), then because of that to end up having disturbing dreams becuase of those games, then I think that that accounts to dreams which were influenced by temptation, which comes from the devil. So MeanMan is right there... we cannot be directly manipulated by the devil, however, the devil is very very sneaky at little thoughts and temptations which can then lead into bigger thoughts which hurt.

I'm not condemming 3d FPS games... a lot of people find them an "innocent" stress reliever. Sadly(?), that doesn't work for me, and so I dont play them any more. There is nothing intrinically wrong (as far as I can see) with computer games, even if they do advocate activities which I disaprove of. However, certain people get lead into temptation and sin because of them. So... oh heck. I've just gone and created a whole load more for people to argue about. *thinks ahead into what will follow* "but because it can lead to temptation, its therefore wrong!" "but everything can lead to temptataion, even just a pattern of cracks in a natural rock face!"... :-/ I hope this conversation doesn't happen. Just... I'm sorry, I'm tired, I'm off to bed soon.

Good night everybody, and I pray that we might not squabble about anything. All it does is help people to say "look at them christians, always argueing" which is not true.

Dan

*yawns, blinks a few times, and clicks "Submit Reply" *

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

well, if Satan can lie to us when we are awake, which I think is something we agree on... and if (non-prophetic/etc, just normal) dreams are "only" our subconcious thoughts and imaginings about the days/lifes events, then it is quite possible to have very evil dreams because we have been thinking about evil things, so if we have gottern confused and our thoughts have wandered/been lead into areas which they shouldn't have done (eg evil/sin stuff), then our dreams will envolve these, which means that indirectly, those dreams have been influenced.

That's fair. But ultimately this means we dream about the things on our mind, not that we need to 'pray protection' or fear satanic attack in our sleep. Such fears will feed such dreams for natural reasons, and fuel a vicious circle.

quote:

i used to play quite a lot of 3d FPS games, and read books which I dont think I should have read. I had a lot of dreams and thoughts about those things which troubled me. I think they were because of those books and games. So if I was tempted (I was) to think "well, playing a few hours of blowing up people wont hurt, its only a game" and then giving in to it (temptation), then because of that to end up having disturbing dreams becuase of those games, then I think that that accounts to dreams which were influenced by temptation, which comes from the devil. So MeanMan is right there... we cannot be directly manipulated by the devil, however, the devil is very very sneaky at little thoughts and temptations which can then lead into bigger thoughts which hurt.

Obviously, if you are affected by these games, then you should not play them. Personally, they give me vertigo ( give me a break, I am old ), so I don't bother :0)

quote:

I'm not condemming 3d FPS games... a lot of people find them an "innocent" stress reliever. Sadly(?), that doesn't work for me, and so I dont play them any more. There is nothing intrinically wrong (as far as I can see) with computer games, even if they do advocate activities which I disaprove of. However, certain people get lead into temptation and sin because of them. So... oh heck. I've just gone and created a whole load more for people to argue about. *thinks ahead into what will follow* "but because it can lead to temptation, its therefore wrong!" "but everything can lead to temptataion, even just a pattern of cracks in a natural rock face!"... :-/ I hope this conversation doesn't happen. Just... I'm sorry, I'm tired, I'm off to bed soon.

I think Paul said it best when he told us that our freedom should not be a stumbling block for others ( another reason Christians do not drink alcohol ). Therefore it is wrong to judge someone else because their conscience does not allow them to do a certain thing, we should consider maybe it is our consience that is seared. Personally I don't see a problem with video games, but if I knew a brother did, I would not play them again for his sake.

Of course, that's easy to say - I don't have time to play them anyhow...

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
I just didn't bother expounding it because I don't believe that you really care.


I do care, I just don't agree with you.

------------------
Victory Infinitum

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
I beleive that people from the old testiment are saved. There are less numbers that the Church age and they had a different deal than us. I beleive that those who had FAITH in God's promise to send a redeemer are indeed with God. Remember that we were saved by FAITH.

------------------
Victory Infinitum

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

I beleive that people from the old testiment are saved. There are less numbers that the Church age and they had a different deal than us. I beleive that those who had FAITH in God's promise to send a redeemer are indeed with God. Remember that we were saved by FAITH.

Then we agree, except that you keep saying they are with God and I don't know if you mean consciously ( which I've shown from the Bible cannot be true ). I never said they got nothing from God in the next age, only that it's not salvation in the New Testament sense.

InsanePoet

Member

Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
I don't think they have the same thing as we do. I don't beleive that they are going to hell.

------------------
Victory Infinitum

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

I don't think they have the same thing as we do. I don't beleive that they are going to hell.

Seeing as we agree, why did it take us so long to get here ? :0)

rowanseymour

Member

Posts: 284
From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Registered: 02-10-2001
Matthew 8 v11
11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 17 v2-3
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus

Mark 12 v25-27
25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

Luke 16 v19-26
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

There is no eternal life other than that with Jesus in the Kingdom of heaven. As far as I can see the scriptures are clear that they are all with Jesus.

------------------
Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited February 22, 2002).]

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

There is no eternal life other than that with Jesus in the Kingdom of heaven. As far as I can see the scriptures are clear that they are all with Jesus.

There is no such place as heaven, instead there is a new age here on earth. When people die they sleep, and 'the dead know nothing'. 1 Cor 15 makes this clear when it says Jesus is the firstfruits of the grave, and the sum total of those who rise from the dead, never to die again, until such time as Jesus returns.

quote:

Matthew 8 v11
11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Do you take this to refer to a present continuous feast, that was happening as Jesus spoke and continues for the dead today ? It's worth noting that at this time Jesus was talking to people for whom Bible salvation in the NT sense was not yet possible. I've maintained throughout that God will have something good in store for the OT saints, and obviously the three people He mentions were a given to be amonst them.

quote:

Matthew 17 v2-3
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus

This was a vsion, denoting that Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. As I've noted neither of these men was/is raised from the dead. In any case, are we claiming they were wearing name tags ? They knew who they were because it was a vision, designed to show something profound about the namture of Jesus and His ministry.

quote:

Mark 12 v25-27
25 When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26 Now about the dead rising--have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!"

The living can sleep, and the dead in Christ are asleep, awaiting His coming.

quote:

Luke 16 v19-26
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

This is so obviously a parable, not least because Jesus ONLY spoke in parables according to the Bible.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
MMiO, I've been trying to avoid you because I know your sort, and I know where discussions like this lead. But I had to clean up some of the trash in this thread. I personally think you are very dangerous, both for this forum and for the people who engage in conversation with you.

> where-ever the OT saints are going, right now they are not conscious, they are dead.

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

> There is no such place as heaven

Say what? Silly Bible, mentioning heaven all those times....

> 1 Cor 15 makes this clear when it says Jesus is the firstfruits of the grave.

Yes, in bodily form. He is the first to have his physical body glorified. Dead people's bodies are still in the earth. That doesn't preclude their spirits being "unconscious".

> This was a vsion, denoting that Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets.

Yes of course - both Christ and Scripture are deceiving us. Sorry bud, but scripture doesn't say this was a vision, it said it happened. You can't just brush off scripture as "symbolic" or "a vision" just because it doesn't agree with your preconceptions. The Bible simply becomes too subjective to be any good with this approach, and you can use it to prove or disprove anything you want.

> The living can sleep, and the dead in Christ are asleep.

Bodies sleep. Nothing says souls sleep. In fact, the souls are awake in heaven in Rev 6:9. Oh nevermind, I'm sure you think that is just another deceiving vision.

> This is so obviously a parable, not least because Jesus ONLY spoke in parables according to the Bible.

So you're saying Jesus used a complete lie, something totally opposite to what is the truth, to make a point? Do you believe that Christ was either lying or too stupid to make the same point using a truth instead? Sorry, but *my* Jesus is the Truth. He would never use an untruth (especially when he didn't have to!), even in a parable.

MMiO, you're wresting scripture left and right to support your strange doctrines of soul sleep, different methods of salvation, tounges, etc. I fear you will not see the truth as long as you are under the "church" you are in, so instead of arguing with you I will pray that God leads you away from your negative influences instead.

Brian

------------------

Ascent
Member

Posts: 64
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
My poetic friend, I'm afraid that you're falling into the trap of believing things because they sound nice, instead of looking for what the Bible says. As I pointed out yesterday, the Bible says Christ alone has risen from the dead at this time, so where-ever the OT saints are going, right now they are not conscious, they are dead.

Actually, my friend, the Bible says something quite to the contrary in Matthew 27:50-53 (this happened at the end of the crucifixion -- verses surrounding are given for reference)

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

That's the NIV version. I checked several other translations (KJV, NASB) and they say the same thing.

Bear in mind, also, that Jesus told the disciples to go and raise the dead (Matt 10:8) and so I think it's only logical that Jesus would not tell them to do something that they were uncapable of doing, and therefore, it would also seem logical that other people have been raised from the dead since.

-Ascent

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

MMiO, I've been trying to avoid you because I know your sort, and I know where discussions like this lead. But I had to clean up some of the trash in this thread. I personally think you are very dangerous, both for this forum and for the people who engage in conversation with you.

Well, I guess I can't help it if your defence against people who disagree with you is to label them dangerous. I'm also not sure how discussing the Bible is dangerous ?

quote:

> where-ever the OT saints are going, right now they are not conscious, they are dead.

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Do you belong to one of these strange groups that reject Pauls writings, or is it just that because what I say is 'dangerous' that you've not referred to the scripture I keep paraphrasing in 1 Cor 15 ?

1 Cor 15 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is useless; you are still in your sins. 15:18 Furthermore, those who have fallen asleep10 in Christ have also perished. 15:19 For if only in this life we have hope in Christ, we should be pitied more than anyone.

15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 15:21 For since death came through a man,11 the resurrection of the dead also came through a man.12 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so also all will be made alive in Christ. 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.13 15:24 Then14 comes the end,15 when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 15:26 The last enemy to be eliminated is death.

Once again those dead in Christ are referred to as asleep, and the last enemy to be defeated is death, we will rise from the dead 'at His coming'.

quote:

> There is no such place as heaven

Say what? Silly Bible, mentioning heaven all those times....


I'm not sure how you believe rudeness and sarcasm benefits your cause. The kingdom of heaven is not a place in the clouds, but rather relates to God and His saints ruling here on earth. I'm sorry that the JW's got that bit right and you didn't, I abhor most of the JW's teachings, but this bit they have together. Jesus is coming back to earth, to take up the throne of His father, David, and the dead in Christ will rise at that time ( actually Thess. says this as well ), and rule with Him.

quote:

> 1 Cor 15 makes this clear when it says Jesus is the firstfruits of the grave.

Yes, in bodily form. He is the first to have his physical body glorified. Dead people's bodies are still in the earth. That doesn't preclude their spirits being "unconscious".


As in sleep ? You need to read my posts before setting out to correct them publically, for the benefit of those I endanger by quoting scripture. Or did you not mean preclude ?

quote:

> This was a vsion, denoting that Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets.

Yes of course - both Christ and Scripture are deceiving us. Sorry bud, but scripture doesn't say this was a vision, it said it happened. You can't just brush off scripture as "symbolic" or "a vision" just because it doesn't agree with your preconceptions. The Bible simply becomes too subjective to be any good with this approach, and you can use it to prove or disprove anything you want.


Jesus spoke only in parables, according to the Bible. I illustrated the reasons why this must have been a vision, unless the two people in question were awoken for a moment, with name tags attached, and sent back to sleep again. That is possible, but unlikely IMO. Either way, this passage does nothing to prove they were waiting in the clouds and Jesus just beckoned them down for a second.

quote:

> The living can sleep, and the dead in Christ are asleep.

Bodies sleep. Nothing says souls sleep. In fact, the souls are awake in heaven in Rev 6:9. Oh nevermind, I'm sure you think that is just another deceiving vision.


I guess I'll just side with Paul on this one, unless you think the reference to sleep in 1 Cor 15 refers to dead, rotting bodies. ALL of Revelation is word pictures, unless you intend on being turned to stone as a reward for your labour in Christ ( he who overcomes shall be a pillar in the temple of my God).

quote:

> This is so obviously a parable, not least because Jesus ONLY spoke in parables according to the Bible.

So you're saying Jesus used a complete lie, something totally opposite to what is the truth, to make a point? Do you believe that Christ was either lying or too stupid to make the same point using a truth instead? Sorry, but *my* Jesus is the Truth. He would never use an untruth (especially when he didn't have to!), even in a parable.


My friend, you have serious problems, obviously most of them with me, otherwise you would not say the above, and forget to quote me, because a quote would prove your statement to be plain dumb. Jesus didn't LIE, He spoke in a parable. There were no ten virgins, did Jesus lie ? There was no prodigal son, did Jesus lie ? No, He created a situation by which to illustrate something about the Kingdom of God. The Bible SAYS He only spoke in parables, therefore this was a parable.

quote:

MMiO, you're wresting scripture left and right to support your strange doctrines of soul sleep, different methods of salvation, tounges, etc.

There are no different methods of salvation, none at all. There is one method that was the same in the OT and the New, faith in God. In the OT the promise was not the same as in the New, the Bible is crystal clear on that. In the NT, faith in God means to believe what He said, which includes the offer of tongues as evidence of the infilling of the Spirit. 'Why say you love me, and do not the things I say ? ' - Jesus.

quote:

I fear you will not see the truth as long as you are under the "church" you are in, so instead of arguing with you I will pray that God leads you away from your negative influences instead.

Now you see why I don't like to say where I go. Suddenly people are unwilling to even look at their Bibles, they just blindly attack me without reference to scripture, preferring statements like 'the Jesus *I* know does not lie*, presenting straw men they can build up and tear down instead of addressing anything I say from the Bible.

Apparently, I am under an evil influence. Once I was out there in the world of religion generally, unhappy that I could not overcome my problems, particularly my self esteem and my drinking. These evil people told me about a promise God makes, and somehow forced Him to keep it, although He clearly never said it. Somehow they did what my faith in the true Gospel of 'believe and be saved, regardless of if nothing much happens to you' never could, they took away my addictions and I became a totally different person in an instant. Twelve years later my life is indistinguishable from the direction I was taking, all for the better.

My experience does not prove my doctrine, but were getting to the grotty end when people refuse to discuss the Bible and instead suggest I am beyond hope because I am under an evil influence, doncha think ?

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

That's the NIV version. I checked several other translations (KJV, NASB) and they say the same thing.

Bear in mind, also, that Jesus told the disciples to go and raise the dead (Matt 10:8) and so I think it's only logical that Jesus would not tell them to do something that they were uncapable of doing, and therefore, it would also seem logical that other people have been raised from the dead since.


This is a good point, sorry I did not cover it properly before. I have quoted 1 Cor 15 above, please refer to it as my justification for the original comment.

Anyhow, even in Jesus' lifetime people were raised from the dead, the point is they went back to the grave again. Jesus is the first to conquer death - in other words He will not die, now or ever. Lazarus died, people in my church who have been raised from the dead will go on to die if Jesus does not return in the meantime. When Jesus returns the Bible says the dead in Christ will rise and then together with those who remain will meet the Lord in the air ( 1 Thess from memory ).

Jesus death was an amazing thing, and was surrounded by events such as the raising of the OT saints. I contend that the fact they were raised from the dead *at that time* only proves that they were dead up until then, as I have been contending, and that what happened to them cannot have been permanent if 1 Cor 15 is true, although if it was or not is not relevant to anything else I believe, so in that sense I really consider the question academic.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
> Or did you not mean preclude ?

I meant preclude, but I meant "conscious", not "unconscious". See below.

> I guess I'll just side with Paul on this one, unless you think the reference to sleep in 1 Cor 15 refers to dead, rotting bodies.

Yes, that's exactly what I (and orhtodox Christianity throughout history) think. I think you are fully aware of this, but just in case this is new to you: Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen "asleep": he is the first to have his *body* glorified/resurrected. Dead saints have not yet had their bodies glorified/resurrected (ie. their bodies are "asleep"), but that does NOT require their spirits to be "asleep" as well. Consider Christ's death: he gave up his spirit and his body died. His spirit was not asleep, but was separated from his body. At his resurrection, his body was glorified/resurrected and reunited with his spirit. Same for us: cross reference 1 Cor 15 with 1 Thess 4:14-17: when Christ comes, those who have fallen asleep (ie. bodies are dead), Christ will **bring with him** (from heaven!) - Christ brings their spirits with him, and reunites those spirits with their bodies in their glorification/resurrection. He was the firstfruits, we are next.

> Jesus spoke only in parables, according to the Bible.

No, not "only".

> Jesus didn't LIE, He spoke in a parable.

Why can't a parable be true? Why would the Truth use an untruth in a parable?

> There were no ten virgins, did Jesus lie ?

How do you know there were no 10 virgins? Why not believe there were?

> There was no prodigal son, did Jesus lie ?

How do you know there was not prodigal son? Why not believe there was?

> He created a situation by which to illustrate something about the Kingdom of God. The Bible SAYS He only spoke in parables, therefore this was a parable.

Again, why can't parables be true, where does the Bible say he "only" spoke in parables, and why would he use untruths in a parable when he didn't have to? Maybe you misunderstand what a parable is. It is not a fable with a moral.

> Once again those dead in Christ are referred to as asleep, and the last enemy to be defeated is death, we will rise from the dead 'at His coming'.

Yes, their *bodies* will rise from the dead. But like Christ, while their bodies are dead their spirits are not dead also.

> The kingdom of heaven is not a place in the clouds, but rather relates to God and His saints ruling here on earth.

I agree, but I was not talking about the "kingdom" of heaven, but heaven itself. Big difference. In Matt 28:2 an angel descended from heaven. Luke 10:20 says our names are written in heaven. John 3:13 and 6:38 says Christ came from heaven. Acts 1:10-11 says Christ ascended to heaven. There are dozens and dozens of similar verses. Dismiss them at your own peril.

> Suddenly people are unwilling to even look at their Bibles, they just blindly attack me without reference to scripture, preferring statements like 'the Jesus *I* know does not lie*, presenting straw men they can build up and tear down instead of addressing anything I say from the Bible.

I have addressed your points, and I have provided reference to scripture in doing so. You just blow them off or twist them. That is not a strawman on my part.

> My experience does not prove my doctrine, but were getting to the grotty end when people refuse to discuss the Bible and instead suggest I am beyond hope because I am under an evil influence, doncha think ?

I'm sorry for coming on strong, but the group you are involved in is not orthodox. The church has been debating against these issues since day one. It's great that you've turned your life around, but don't give their doctrines the credit for that. And just because people disagree with you, it does not mean the are not discussing the Bible. All the points you raise, along with your rebuttals of the orthodox view, are not original. They are standard textbook answers from fringe groups, and I do not believe for a second that these your answers are not just rehashes of what is being fed to you. I cannot believe you've read 500 verses that talk about heaven and then conclude independently that "there is no such place as heaven", etc. As I mentioned at the beginning of my last post, I know how these discussions go. I am not carrying on a discussion with *you*, I am carrying on a discussion with the cult-like system you are stuck in. I'd rather discuss the Bible with *you*, not a clone who swallows everything his fringe organization gives him.

Brian

------------------

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

> I guess I'll just side with Paul on this one, unless you think the reference to sleep in 1 Cor 15 refers to dead, rotting bodies.

Yes, that's exactly what I (and orhtodox Christianity throughout history) think. I think you are fully aware of this, but just in case this is new to you: Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen "asleep": he is the first to have his *body* glorified/resurrected. Dead saints have not yet had their bodies glorified/resurrected (ie. their bodies are "asleep"), but that does NOT require their spirits to be "asleep" as well. Consider Christ's death: he gave up his spirit and his body died. His spirit was not asleep, but was separated from his body. At his resurrection, his body was glorified/resurrected and reunited with his spirit. Same for us: cross reference 1 Cor 15 with 1 Thess 4:14-17: when Christ comes, those who have fallen asleep (ie. bodies are dead), Christ will **bring with him** (from heaven!) - Christ brings their spirits with him, and reunites those spirits with their bodies in their glorification/resurrection. He was the firstfruits, we are next.


How truly odd.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead in Christ will rise first, the point of the scripture is that the dead in Christ will not miss out. The only logical conclusion of your view is that you believe that we get our old bodies back - do they get reconstitued from the dust they have turned into ? You don't think we get a new body, that we become a spiritual being ? We turn into physical people again who go to the toilet, eat and have zits ?


quote:

> Jesus spoke only in parables, according to the Bible.

No, not "only".


MAtt 13: 34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

quote:

> Jesus didn't LIE, He spoke in a parable.

Why can't a parable be true? Why would the Truth use an untruth in a parable?


The question is why must a parable be something that actually happened ?

quote:

> There were no ten virgins, did Jesus lie ?

How do you know there were no 10 virgins? Why not believe there were?


10 virgins for one man, and he rejected half of them because their lamps did not work ?

quote:

> There was no prodigal son, did Jesus lie ?

How do you know there was not prodigal son? Why not believe there was?


For the purpose of the thing, I'm sure there have been sons like this, but Jesus was seeking to present a parable, not talk about one specific son.

quote:

> He created a situation by which to illustrate something about the Kingdom of God. The Bible SAYS He only spoke in parables, therefore this was a parable.

Again, why can't parables be true, where does the Bible say he "only" spoke in parables, and why would he use untruths in a parable when he didn't have to? Maybe you misunderstand what a parable is. It is not a fable with a moral.


It is a story that presents a parallel to what the teller wants to say. The things in the story represent something else. And no, it's not necessary that they be untrue, but it seems very likely. Unless you think the kingdom of heaven occurs on the breast of Abraham.

Luke 16: 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abrahamís bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

I believe this is the parable we started with ?

quote:

> Once again those dead in Christ are referred to as asleep, and the last enemy to be defeated is death, we will rise from the dead 'at His coming'.

Yes, their *bodies* will rise from the dead. But like Christ, while their bodies are dead their spirits are not dead also.


This is just too bizarre for me. Where does the Bible say it, and if the 'spirits' ( which are the essence of the person ) live on, why does 1 Cor 15 say what it does ? You seem to claim God is more interested in talking about our bodies than our souls.

quote:

> The kingdom of heaven is not a place in the clouds, but rather relates to God and His saints ruling here on earth.

I agree, but I was not talking about the "kingdom" of heaven, but heaven itself. Big difference. In Matt 28:2 an angel descended from heaven. Luke 10:20 says our names are written in heaven. John 3:13 and 6:38 says Christ came from heaven. Acts 1:10-11 says Christ ascended to heaven. There are dozens and dozens of similar verses. Dismiss them at your own peril.


There's a difference between dismiss and understand.

quote:

> Suddenly people are unwilling to even look at their Bibles, they just blindly attack me without reference to scripture, preferring statements like 'the Jesus *I* know does not lie*, presenting straw men they can build up and tear down instead of addressing anything I say from the Bible.

I have addressed your points, and I have provided reference to scripture in doing so. You just blow them off or twist them. That is not a strawman on my part.


Actually, I said Jesus only spoke in parables, you said 'where does the Bible say that', without even looking it up. You've certainly referred to the BIble, I am amused that your using the Bible to support your view is 'quoting the BIble', and me doing the same in reply is 'blowing them off or twisting them'. I've asked some questions that are raised by your views. That does not mean I am rejecting them without consideration, it means I've considered your belief that the Bible talks about peoples bodies instead of their souls, when it talks about those who 'sleep', instead of those who 'are with Christ', etc. I am interested to hear your reply.

quote:

> My experience does not prove my doctrine, but were getting to the grotty end when people refuse to discuss the Bible and instead suggest I am beyond hope because I am under an evil influence, doncha think ?

I'm sorry for coming on strong, but the group you are involved in is not orthodox.


I guess not. It's almost like I've found a narrow path that few find, isn't it ? Being non-mainstream does not prove me right, but the mainstream WILL be wrong according to Jesus.

quote:

The church has been debating against these issues since day one. It's great that you've turned your life around, but don't give their doctrines the credit for that. And just because people disagree with you, it does not mean the are not discussing the Bible. All the points you raise, along with your rebuttals of the orthodox view, are not original. They are standard textbook answers from fringe groups, and I do not believe for a second that these your answers are not just rehashes of what is being fed to you.

OK, we're going to talk about my experience - if you're right, why couldn't I turn my life around when I believed the doctrines you're presenting, with my whole heart and with all my being ?

quote:

I cannot believe you've read 500 verses that talk about heaven and then conclude independently that "there is no such place as heaven", etc.

It's clear when the Bible speaks of heaven it is not talking about a place where angels flit around and people play harp. That is what I was trying to say, and I've made that clear. I'm interested, if I couldn't come to this conclusion independently, where do you propose my doctrines came from ? Someone had to read the Bible and conclude it says what I believe, even assuming I am an automaton who does not think for myself.

quote:

As I mentioned at the beginning of my last post, I know how these discussions go. I am not carrying on a discussion with *you*, I am carrying on a discussion with the cult-like system you are stuck in. I'd rather discuss the Bible with *you*, not a clone who swallows everything his fringe organization gives him.

In other words

1/ You believe I should belong to a church and not agree with it's doctrines

2/ You don't believe you are talking to me until such time as I agree with you, or just disagree with my church ?

This is a dumb statement. Regardless of if you can magically decide I am somehow programmed to say what I do, your argument is with the Bible, and so is mine. Where I learned to say what I do is irrelevant, but seeing as you want to play this muddy little game, FYI I read the Bible for two years before I recieved the Holy Spirit, and as soon as I did, I knew what a lot of the Bible meant, which I had not known before. I did not have to be told, I simply found out over time that the things which the Spirit convinced me of from the scriptures I previously knew but did not understand correlated to the doctrine of the people who told me how to be saved.

That is not always the case - the Bible says we need people to teach us, but in my case it is certainly true that I've been told very little regarding core doctrine after recieving the Spirit that I did not know for myself, having recieved the Spirit. I'd say through discussion online that I know more about 1 Cor 12-14 than most people in my church, pretty much everything I have to say about those verses, and Acts 8 as well, is stuff I have doscovered through study, not stuff I was taught at church. Acts 2, 10, 19, Mark 16, John 3 are all things that I have certainly heard about at church, and verified in my own study.

I find it incredibly arrogant for you to speak as you have done, your assumptions are mind boggling and really boil down to a decision that I am not thinking freely, therefore you are free not to think too much about what I have said. If you were considering my posts beyond wanting the rebuff them publically, you would have checked if the Bible says that Jesus only spoke in parables before telling me the Bible does not say that.

I'm not sure if I should continue posting at this point - I've said as much as I am likely to and I am kinda busy at the moment to be arguing in circles with people who discount what I say from the Bible before even reading it.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
> he only logical conclusion of your view is that you believe that we get our old bodies back - do they get reconstitued from the dust they have turned into ?

Yes. We don't get "replacement" bodies, but our existing bodies are glorified/resurrected. Scripture says our bodies will be "changed", not "replaced", and that the "corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality": *put on*, not "replaced with". Same body, but made incorruptible (ie. no zits). Christ kept his old body, complete with the nail prints. Do you deny this? We will do the same. This is key Christian doctrine. Amoung everything else, do you deny this aspect of the resurrection as well???

> MAtt 13: 34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them

Context. Who is the "them"? It is not everyone Jesus ever talked to, and does not include everything Jesus ever said. When Jesus said to the sick man in Matt 9:2 "your sins are forgiven thee", was that a parable? Christ talked repeatedly of his second coming - is that just a fable? He said "with God all things are possible" - allegory? He said in John 8:49 "I have not a devil" - just an illustration?

> The question is why must a parable be something that actually happened ?

Because he is the Truth, and would not speak something that was not the truth. For the third time, why would the Truth use an untruth in a parable?

> 10 virgins for one man, and he rejected half of them because their lamps did not work ?

It does not say they were all for the one man, only that they were all to attend the wedding. Again, how do you know there were no 10 virgins? Why not believe there were?

> For the purpose of the thing, I'm sure there have been sons like this, but Jesus was seeking to present a parable, not talk about one specific son.

Again, how do you know there was not *a specific* prodigal son? Why not believe there was?

> And no, it's not necessary that they be untrue, but it seems very likely.

Why does it seem likely. To me, it seems very unlikely that the Truth would not be completely truthful.

> Unless you think the kingdom of heaven occurs on the breast of Abraham.
>
> Luke 16: 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abrahamís bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This is not about "the kingdom of heaven", and does not say the kingdom of heaven is on the breast of Abraham. It says the rich man saw Abraham. It says the rich man say Lazarus in his bosom. Abraham was embracing Lazarus. Simple.

> This is just too bizarre for me. Where does the Bible say it,

There have already been numerous passages mentioned in this thread. You have written them all off as untrue or symbolic.

> There's a difference between dismiss and understand.

OK, then where did Christ go when he ascended in Acts 1:10-11? Did he dissolve into vapor? Is he orbiting Jupiter?

> I guess not. It's almost like I've found a narrow path that few find, isn't it ?

Ah, the textbook slogan of cults everywhere.

> OK, we're going to talk about my experience - if you're right, why couldn't I turn my life around when I believed the doctrines you're presenting, with my whole heart and with all my being ?

Because believing doctrine isn't what changes life. Many who have believed incorrect doctrine turn their life around. Many who believe correct doctrine really screw things up. Many change their life without changing their doctrine at all. Many change their doctrine but their life stays the same.

Also, I doubt that you've believed the doctrines I'm presenting with your whole heart an all your being, as it appears you have never heard of or do not even understand some of the doctrines I'm discussing.

> 1/ You believe I should belong to a church and not agree with it's doctrines

No I don't. Please don't tell me what I believe. I believe you should question the doctrines presented at your church, and if you end up opposing them, find a better church.

> 2/ You don't believe you are talking to me until such time as I agree with you, or just disagree with my church ?

Again, no. But I believe that up to this point you're simply passing on to us what was passed on to you. I believe this because I've discussed these issues with people from your group before, and the arguements are the same. After a while, one can almost predict the responses.

> I find it incredibly arrogant for you to speak as you have done

Hey, how does it feel to be on the other end of the stick, "mean man"? LOL

> people who discount what I say from the Bible before even reading it

"I find it incredibly arrogant for you to speak as you have done, your assumptions are mind boggling". LOL If someone disagrees with you, they haven't read the Bible? You know, all of present and historic Christendom must not have read their Bibles. You're little auzzie pocket of "truth" is in opposition to the entire history of the Christian church. You expect me to believe that you have it right and everyone else has/had it wrong? That you and your group have somehow magically corrected 2 millennia of Church history? Sorry, but I'm not the arrogant one. The defintion of "cult" is a group that is "Christian" yet opposed to the orthodox Christian church on key doctrines: especially on the person of Christ and/or the doctrine of resurrection and/or the doctrine of salvation. I'm sorry if the term bothers you, but it is the correct term here. The early church used an even stronger word: "heresy".

Brian

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Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
MMiO, you seem so locked into your thinking, so let me try a more simple and direct question:

When Christ told parables, he used actual events: eg. widows really lost coins and searched for them, shepherds really lost sheep and searched for them, seed is really sprinkled on the ground and is sometimes eaten by birds or choked by thorns, kings give banquets, trees sprout leaves, people own money to lenders, labourers are hired, etc.

Why oh why, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, would Christ not only deviate from the pattern of using real events? And not only that, but actually using a doctrine that was the *exact opposite* to what was the truth? Especially when the truth he was trying to convey could have been conveyed *without* using a entirely false doctrine as the cover story?

If Jesus told a parable where worshipping Satan was good, just to make a point, wouldn't you have a problem with that? If there was a parable about how a king rewarded rapists and murderers, but punished a righteous man, that would be OK with you? How about a parable that denied God's role in creation or said that all "tongues" were really Satanic, just to share a deeping meaning? If these are not acceptable, why is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus OK with you if the circumstances of the parable are the exact opposite of truth?

Question your influences. They are misguiding you.

Brian

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MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
Brian you are too deliberately obtuse for me to want to bother discussing things with you. You've predecided several things about me that are not true, including making judgements about my faith and my actions prior to salvation, when I did indeed keenly believe what you do, even if I seek now to point out that it makes no sense.
Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
Here's a parable for you. See if you can get the point of it:

One day, Jesus was speaking to a group of listeners. He started to tell the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Someone interrupted, saying "You're wrong, Jesus. That never happened. It could never happen." Later, Jesus was instructing his followers how to pray. He started, "When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven...". But just then the same heckler from before jumped in saying, "Hold it right there, another error Jesus. There ain't no such place." Later, Christ was being crucified. One of those being crucified with Christ said "Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Jesus replied, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Just then the very same heckler, from among the crowd of onlookers shouted out, "No he won't, Jesus! You've got it all wrong yet again. Today he'll just be dead."

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MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
See what I mean ? You are very arrogant, and you've proven again that you would not do me the courtesy of listening to what I say if I bothered to say it. It's clear from this post you've read my posts only to the point where you could jump to a conclusion that suits your extreme desire to attack me.

I'm curious - now that I've mentioned what church I belong to you've suddenly sprung up and made these posts lacking in all reason. Do you hate the church I belong to, or just me specifically ?


Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
> I'm curious - now that I've mentioned what church I belong to you've suddenly sprung up and made these posts lacking in all reason. Do you hate the church I belong to, or just me specifically ?

I know little about your church. I do not hate you. I have listened to you, I just disagree with you, and have provided scriptural reason for why I do.

Jesus said "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall *never* die. Believest thou this?"

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MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

Jesus said "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall *never* die. Believest thou this?"

If by believer you mean the Greek meaning of the word ( which entails doing what He said ), then of course. If you mean 'believe that Jesus was the Son of God and you will live forever', then no. This statement, like every one in the Bible, needs the rest of the Bible for context. The scriptures that say to believe in Jesus do not say what to believe of Him. This scripture is true, and powerful, but it is not the whole message of salvation, because it is not complete.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
Perhaps you misunderstood why I quoted that verse. I was emphasizing the "never die" part. Christ said whoever believes in him will "never die". Yet you say we *will* die, even if just temporarily. I choose to believe Christ's words, not yours. My body may die, but my body is not "me", it is just part of me.

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MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

Perhaps you misunderstood why I quoted that verse. I was emphasizing the "never die" part. Christ said whoever believes in him will "never die". Yet you say we *will* die, even if just temporarily. I choose to believe Christ's words, not yours. My body may die, but my body is not "me", it is just part of me.

That is why Paul says people who have died physically in the Lord are asleep, and I agree with him.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
Double talk.

Earlier in the thread you said "right now they are not conscious, they are dead". So which is it? And please tell me *your* definitions of "dead" and "sleeping".

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Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
brian,

can you get on ICQ sometime so we can chat?

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
Hi klumsy,

I personally dislike messenger-type proggys like ICQ, MSN messenger, AOL instant message, etc. Feel free to fire off an email to me if you want, though.

Brian

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MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

Earlier in the thread you said "right now they are not conscious, they are dead". So which is it? And please tell me *your* definitions of "dead" and "sleeping".

Sure - the dead don't get up again. Hence Paul's use of the term 'sleep'.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
> the dead don't get up again.

1 Cor 15:16-17 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

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MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

Earlier in the thread you said "right now they are not conscious, they are dead". So which is it? And please tell me *your* definitions of "dead" and "sleeping".

I dunno where my previous reply went, but the answer is obvious - people who sleep will wake up.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
Ooops, it was on page 2.

quote:

1 Cor 15:16-17 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Word games and semantics, this obviously refers to the dead in Christ, who are dead, and yet sleep in the Lord.

You need instead to address why Paul calls the dead in Christ asleep, if it is our body ( which does not rest, but rots ) that sleeps, and why he focuses on the body instead of the soul in your opinion.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

MMiO, this is ridiculous. If you explain away or ignore these scriptures like you've done to all the others I've posted, don't expect anymore replies from me. I'm not wasting any more time with you unless you start accepting these scriptures for what they plainly say.

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MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

MMiO, this is ridiculous. If you explain away or ignore these scriptures like you've done to all the others I've posted, don't expect anymore replies from me. I'm not wasting any more time with you unless you start accepting these scriptures for what they plainly say.

I could say the same to you, with equal force. You've quoted a lot of scriptures that talk about different things, but none of which suggest that God is interested in our mortal bodies instead of our souls. Yes, if we are alive when Jesus returns, in being changed in an instant our bodies will be changed, precisely BECAUSE they will not be the bodies we have now, they will be perfected. I dunno exactly what that means but it seems to me that however it works you are interested in arguing about the periphery to the exclusion of the core issues I have raised in our discussions.

Is God interested in our body or our soul ? Is what happens to our body a side effect of God's fundamental interest in our soul, or vice versa ?

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
> but none of which suggest that God is interested in our mortal bodies instead of our souls.

That was not my objective, because I *do not believe nor have ever said* God is interested in our mortal bodies "instead of our souls"! You asked about why I thought Paul was talking about the resurrection of our bodies in that passage, and that's what I answered.

That's it, I'm done playing this game. See ya around, I'm outta here. Think what you will.

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MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

That was not my objective, because I *do not believe nor have ever said* God is interested in our mortal bodies "instead of our souls"! You asked about why I thought Paul was talking about the resurrection of our bodies in that passage, and that's what I answered.

That's it, I'm done playing this game. See ya around, I'm outta here. Think what you will.


The problem is that you're playing word games to make a point that really does not matter, while failing to address points I have made ( across three threads as of now ). If Paul talks about Christians who have died as asleep, and you contend that Paul is talking about the state of our bodies, not our souls, it follows that Paul is interested in the state of our body, not our soul. I apologise if pointing out the obvious regarding the view you've put forward is upsetting to you.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
<SARC>
Ladies and Gentlemen..

our records show that this thread is now full..
if you would like to extend the size of your threadbox, we have
a super low monthly fee of $14.99

otherwise we'd suggest you'd clear out of this thread and move onto something else..
</SARC>

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.