First off let me say "Welcome back, Oz!". It's been a long time I hope all is well with you.

I haven't bought in on the speaking in tongues as being a proof of salvation, but I would sincerely like to study this. I will take that up in my devotionals immediately. If you have a collection of supporting scriptures, I would appreciate if you'd share (I know about Acts). If you don't, that's okay, I'll do searches and such.

I'd also like to point out that when you originally came here you stirred up a lot of people...and seemed to thrive on that. Since your return I've seen people stirred up again, but this time it's different. It doesn't seem so personal as it did in the past. Before it always felt like a personal vendetta to get others to think like you do. It never--at least not to me--felt as though it was for any other reason than to satisfy yourself of your belief. There were tons of arguments, verbal lashings (on both sides of the fence), and so on. Now, though, I'm seeing most people lashing out at you, but your responses are worded such that it doesn't appear you're taking it personally anymore. Maybe you never did, I don't know...but that was always the feeling I got.

Many times I've seen people (self included) with a belief that was questioned and their only response was to freak out and argue vehemently, on almost a prideful level. When I see that, I don't see a person who believes something deeply, I see a person who doesn't want to be wrong. That's how I felt about the tongues discussion of many months back. Now, though, I see many on the "don't believe the tongues is necessary side" fighting and arguing as if they are being personally attacked, and you are responding not in-kind, but rather with much more patience than before.

It's because of this new response posture that I feel compelled to seriously study what you are talking about. I probably should have felt compelled before, but maybe there's a lot more to that "answer them with gentleness and respect" thing than I'd thought. I freely admit that I am skeptical that without tongues I am not saved, but I will definately open-mindfully, and prayerfully, study it.

I do have questions, though. For sake of argument, let's say we agree on tongues being a proof of salvation. Being that I've never spoken in tongues, I am therefore not saved. What am I doing wrong? I can't force the use of tongues, right? So, even though I believe that Christ is the Son of God; I believe that Christ died for my sins; I believe that Christ triumphed over death; I believe that Christ is the ONLY way to the Father. I'm still not saved cause I don't speak in tongues, right? So, what am I missing that I've not been given this final proof that I'm saved?

Anyway, I appreciate you're coming back.

Also, to quote more effectively, do this:

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...but don't use spaces in the tags. Here's what it'll look like:

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God bless,

-Krylar

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Now, though, I'm seeing most people lashing out at you, but your responses are worded such that it doesn't appear you're taking it personally anymore. Maybe you never did, I don't know...but that was always the feeling I got.

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Hi, Krylar :-) Thanks for correcting my quote technique...

I wouldn't say I ever took it personally, but I think last time I painted myself into a corner early on and didn't take a serious approach to the discussion. I came back because I was asked and from the start intended to contribute and to comment seriously.

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I do have questions, though. For sake of argument, let's say we agree on tongues being a proof of salvation. Being that I've never spoken in tongues, I am therefore not saved. What am I doing wrong?

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You've not obeyed the Gospel, probably because you've not been told it. This makes you no different to a bushman living on the Amazon, except that you have a Bible.

I prefer to look at it differently - Acts 10 records a man who was faithful to God to the best of his knowledge, and God rewarded his faithfulness by sending someone to tell him what he lacked, to preach the full Gospel. At that point the Gospel was pretty new, so it's not like he could have done better for his life to date, but I believe the analogy stands. In other words, instead of worrying what you've done wrong, consider that life is a journey and at this point you're hearing something which may ( if I am right ) enrich your relationship with God, regardless of how rewarding it has been to date.

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I can't force the use of tongues, right?

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You can only ask God for it, no-one recieves this gift without asking, although some people recieve it without knowing what it is while seeking God, and then get led to a church such as ours.

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So, even though I believe that Christ is the Son of God; I believe that Christ died for my sins; I believe that Christ triumphed over death; I believe that Christ is the ONLY way to the Father. I'm still not saved cause I don't speak in tongues, right?

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Don't take this unkindly, but even the devils believe. Obviously you're acting on your belief in a way they cannot, but Acts 8 also records baptised believers not having the Spirit. Belief is part of the journey, the part called faith. Baptism is the sign of a good consience towards God - it equals obedience. Recieving the Holy Spirit is the part God does, and Acts 8 shows it's not automatic with belief, and that it's effect is visible in a way that allows us to tell if someone has recieved the Spirit or not.

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So, what am I missing that I've not been given this final proof that I'm saved?

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Probably someone to explain to you from the Bible what you need to do to accept God's generous offer of salvation.

As for scriptures, off the top of my head, Mark 16 lists signs that will follow believers, Acts 2, 10 and 19 show believers speaking in tongues ( NOT some tongues, some wisdom, some interpet, some healing, some faith as the views on 1 Cor 12 listed in another thread would have you presume ). Acts 11 shows that Peter regarded the events of Acts 2 as the beginning, Acts 8 shows that baptised believers may not have the Holy Spirit, and that it's possible to tell, 1 Cor 12-14 in context state that gifts need to be used in order in the church, 1 Cor 14:26 states we can all speak in tongues and interpret, and verse 32 (ish) states 'for you can all propehcy, one by one', so we can all propechy as well. 1 Cor 14 also defines prayer in the Spirit as tongues, Jude 20-21 says prayer in the Spirit keeps us in God's love.

If you cna get ahold of a Youngs Literal Translation, ( which is written by the concordance writer and translates word for word with no attempt at interpretation ), then John 3:8 is the best verse going on this:

The Spirit breathes where He chooses, and you hear His voice, but cannot tell from where it comes or where it goes. So is everyone born of the Spirit.

The word translated 'wind' in your Bible is the same Greek word translated 'Spirit' at the end of the verse, and the word translated 'sound' is phonos, from which we get phonetic, telephone, etc. An articulate voice, in other words.

Romans 8 also tells us we do not know what to pray for, and the Spirit intercedes on our behalf with groanings that cannot be uttered. Much of the letters in the Bible do not talk much about tongues, I contend because in the early church speaking in tongues at the point of salvation was a given and did not need discussion. 1 Cor is the exception and it states all in Cornith had the gift several times, although they misused it and overemphasised it in their meetings.

The longer ending of Mark 16 is held in some doubt, but the earlier manuscripts that omit it leave a space for it's possible inclusion, proving only that God being active in the church is a concept that quickly grew out of favour, as Paul told those in Ephesus 'when I am gone you will corrupt yourselves'.

That's all off the top of my head, there are others, but that will do for starters :-)

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First off let me say "Welcome back, Oz!". It's been a long time I hope all is well with you

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I should say thank you. Yes, all is well, I had a job interview yesterday which went really well, praise the Lord. I'm about to go on a three week holiday and I'm looking forward to some real time with my kids. I got an article into WDJ and one into CUJ, which I'm really stoked about. Everything is just going great.

Hope the job works out for you, and congrats on getting your articles published...that is very cool.

-Krylar

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Hope the job works out for you, and congrats on getting your articles published...that is very cool.

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Thanks - I believe it's very much a case of God giving me the desires of my heart. I'll be on holidays for the next three weeks anyhow ( leaving on Tuesday ), so you'll have plenty of time to read and ponder before you reply :-)

I was really riveted by this entire thing. Couldn't sleep or anything last night and spent a good deal of time studying this morning. If you'd like to read over in the "tounges - according to the bible" topic, I'd appreciate it.

I think it's really great that God is fulfilling your desires. He's been doing so with me via this site and my other works so much. I only wish that I could relive the years where *I* was my foundation, if you know what I mean

-Krylar

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I don't want to cut anyone down, but just want to make things clear.
i think...

Read the Word. It is Truth.

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In the Bible, 1 Corinthians 12 to be exact, it talks about gifts.
It says alot. It shows that not all people are given the gift of speaking in tongues. It says "to another" that gift was given.
Also in 1 Corinthians 14:5b, it says
"He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified."
I don't want to cut anyone down, but just want to make things clear.
i think...

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Please read my lengthy post 'Do all Christians speak in tongues'. I think it was during that discussion that Ipoint out that 1 Cor 12 talks about the use of different gifts, but 1 Cor 14:26 says explicitly that all in the church can speak in tongues. I've covered the statement you're making in great length on that thread, so it's a lot quicker just to point you back to it rather than post again, you'll also see a lot of the comments you would make if I started from scratch addressed there.

as you search the scriptures on tounges, and if you find out that its not a prerequisite of salvation, please don't just ignore it for that..

I believe that is is an amazing gift, and its useful for our edification to God.. for our human heart is decietful above all things, and we may not know what to pray, but the Spirit leads us.. i find that when i am lacking dicernment for a situation.. i pray in tounges and the flowing of the other gifts follows.. i find that when i repent i pray in english and in tounges (and occasionally in japanese or chinese).. and then in the stillness i hear the voice of God convicting, admonishing me, and leading me into truth.. (and thats not always easy)..

if you have heard that tounges was just for in the days of acts.. i believe that isn't biblical.. sometimes our ignorance causes us to miss out of some stuff.. (its the same in other areas of life.. our ignorance on the importance of being their when our children are young, means we miss out of the joy of sharing their childhood and bringing them up as God would have us etc)... So it is often the same way with tounges..
for sometimes we have not because we ask not..
I believe if you ask God for this gift, He will ussually give it to you..
(i've known people who've seeked it, and whilst moving in the spirit in prophecy and having an amazing heart after God, never recieved it, apart from miraculous occasions when God had them speak in tounges in public and they were actually ministering in other languages to people there!, however the ability ceased) but God had aboslute and divine wisdom and knows what we needs. and He gives good gifts to His chidren, not snakes or stones and tounges is a good gift..

Sometimes people won't recieve it because they don't want to totally submit, they are scared of losing control, ( i mean speaking something you don't understand doesn't have much control in it.. its scary.. sometimes they have been taught its of the devil, and its very confusing.. however in that case if the person diligantly seeks and prays, and knows God's peace, for God's peace is amazing... (a good study on the peace of God can be an amazing devotion)..

But if you are scared of it, then there are issues of trusting God, we need to be able to trust our daddy (our abba father= abba is like daddy in aramaic).. Trust him with ourselves and submit to Him..

sometimes its an issue of rebellion , we refuse for various reasons (some of the above and others).. then its really an issue of obedience..

so some reason a christian may not speak in tounges..
(this list of course isn't conclusive)

1) because we haven't asked..
2) ignorance..
3) being taught it was wrong/
4) fear
5) lack of trust in God.
6) rebellion/disobedience
7) God's devine wisdom for your situation..

when i have time i will continue my biblical exposition with meanman..

aside from that..

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Now, though, I see many on the "don't believe the tongues is necessary side" fighting and arguing as if they are being personally attacked, and you are responding not in-kind, but rather with much more patience than before.

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God Bless.
I really wish to point out that though i am argueing against the facts that without tounges one isn't a christian.. I AM FOR TOUNGES..
But i don't want to mistake one of his gifts for the Holy Spirit.. just as we often make gifts from God (our possetionals, things in the material world) and make them an idol and seek after them..

i know i didn't put any scriptures in this message, but my posts will be backed up in the future.. but i do have some other priorities at hand..

Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

I'll just make myself clear.

I believe that tongues is a gift from God for Christians.
But not all Christians.
Tongues are not bad, they're good.
I also agree with Klumsy that not all people will recieve it if God offers it to them. Heck, I maybe one of those people. I may not. I don't know. I gotta keep growing. I'm young.

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I believe that tongues is a gift from God for Christians.
But not all Christians.
Tongues are not bad, they're good.
I also agree with Klumsy that not all people will recieve it if God offers it to them. Heck, I maybe one of those people. I may not. I don't know. I gotta keep growing. I'm young.

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The question then is - is faith a gift for all Christians ? Is healing ? Discernment ? Wisdom ? Miracles ?

What do you think tognues are good *for* ? Why do you think they are good only for some people, or to be more precise, that some Christians can do without the good they are for ?

P.S. Sometimes my replies come in late, school matters.

--D-SIPL