Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
Ok everyone I posted a new Subject cuz this is probably going to start some many dumb arguments from Oz its rediculas. I dont care thow I am going to post it cuz im blunt and here is what I think HA! Part of what Oz said:
Anyways on another note Jesus said you will know a tree by its fruts. If you want to get all hot up on me why dont you examen yourself. The only one around here so far that I know of that has really said that they like you is me! Kinda bad dissing your own friends. Also if you want to look at it again I was the nice guy that asked you back. Ya Love You Too So onto another happy little subject cuz I am board of that. I want to ask you some qustions. What religion are you? What church do you go to? Why do you go there? What do you do why you are there? Do you give a tieth? Do you you have a nice house? Do you where nice cloths? Do you think becase I am a Goth Christian I am evil? Why do you have to try and throw your waght around? Why try to throw it at me? I keep telling you it wont work. You keep trying. I keep getting sillyer and enjoying myself and I am having fun while I am not here. Where do you think all this Joy comes from? Does Satan give Joy? For all good things comith from the Lord. That is what I think. So happy happy joy joy to you! There need a space. So yes um were was I hahaha :P K so I dont have much more to say at the momment and I think I got just about long winded enough. If there are anymore wack religius qustions to go on feel free to carry on but I am still going to be me and God will deal with me without anyone else help. I am in His hands and have placed myself there. I am happy were I am and were I am heading too. God's arms here I come O YA! God Bless PS: Just so you know yet again I do not have my religion. Religion of men is just extra rules for something that needs non. So pip pip cheriO and happy good day to you mate! ------------------ |
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Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
Ops just read the rest of Oz's complaints. Here got one for you Oz. about faith. It says faith comes by the hearing and reading of the word. So that comment of yours is shot, try again. Faith dosnt only come by speaking in toungs. Oh ya and I bilive it was Jesus that said, "O Father who art in Hevan, hollowed by thy name, Thy kingdom come thy will be done, On earth as it is in Heaven, give us this day our dayly bread, and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debters." So Jesus said when you pray, pray this way. Got anything else you want to throw at me? Anyways if I have offended you im sorry. Life is full of them and many people say I am offencive... but that is mostly phisicly. Im sure you dont want to here about my iritating tummy and other such things like pearcing my eye brow. Then again Im offencive to you becase I have wine from time to time. Sorry you are offended. I am not perfect nor will I be till I get to be with God. Im trying! Bla more talk again from me. I have to mutch time at 6AM in the morning. Ops forgot to add "hollowed by thy name" its funny when you are trying to qote scripture from mem that you always have to go back and fix. Not unless your really think about it the first time. Maybe I souldnt be saying this I might get jumped for saying this as well. Oh well. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Angel (edited January 24, 2002).] |
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plunkg Member Posts: 11 From: Cincinnati, OH, USA Registered: 01-23-2002 |
Hahahaha. Good for you! Gal 5:22-23: ------------------ [This message has been edited by plunkg (edited January 24, 2002).] [This message has been edited by plunkg (edited January 24, 2002).] |
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Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
Hay nice to see your still around. You made that one post then dropped ofline it seemed. I didnt know were that scripture was. Thanks for posting it. I want to look it up now so I dont have much to say other then nice to see your around. ------------------ |
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Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
YAY I GOT IT HEHEHEHE  BIGGER GRIN I always wanderd were that was. When you read the Bible with tapes its sorta hard to remmber. I couldnt read for a long time. Still cant read for too long cuz it can hurt my head but still I wanted to know were that was. Thanks alot mate!------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
I just lost a huge post because this forum software is so bad, and IE is worse. I'll try again, but if it's brief, that's why... quote: using terminology from 1 Cor 13 does not constitute using scripture, especially when you do not quote it directly or give the reference. quote: Most Christian music ( like most Christian products ) is lame IMO. But I listened to Rez tonight, they rule. quote: I'm sorry you think I'm boasting. Have you thought about using a spell checker, your posts are VERY hard reading. quote: I'm still referring back to scripture I've already quoted and no-one has responded to. Acts 8, Jude 20-21, etc. quote: Sure. quote: Christian quote: The one on the hill. quote: Because I love God and I know the people there all obey the Bible as I do, and in unity is freedom to love and worship God. quote: sometimes I preach, sometimes I operate the voice gifts, sometimes I run communion, usually I pray with the sick to see them recover, sometimes I pray with new people and see them recieve the Spirit, speaking in tongues. sometimes I sit back and rejoice while other people do all those things. quote: I admit not as often as I should, although I have decided recently that I will be more consistent in this regard. My assembly does not preach tithing in terms of pressuring people to give money, but the principle is Biblical, and also practical ( the hall needs to be paid for, along with power, coffee, etc. ) quote: Small to average - we are moving end of this year hopefully. quote: If I have to, I prefer t-shirt & jeans. quote: I didn't know you were. To be honest, I don't even know what that means. It seems a contradiction to me, but I don't think you're evil. quote: I'm throwing God's weight around by quoting the Bible and speaking His message. All I get out of it lack of sleep ( it.s 11:00 pm here, I stopped my night job and thought I'd check in before going to bed and saw this ), and the hope of helping people who are deluded and sold short by the religious world as I was. quote: You brought it up. In fact, you brought me up. :-) quote: I'll keep preaching the Gospel. It took me six months to look into it, so I have a personal example of the benefit of perseverance. quote: I'm glad. I have lots of fun too. I have two children I love very much, two coding jobs I enjoy a lot, etc. quote: Actually you come across as insecure and unhappy. However, are you claiming that only Christians ever have a good time ? quote: What could be nicer than telling you that you can live forever ? I'm not judging anyone, I'm merely letting God's Word do the judging. You judge me by saying I am going to 'heaven', can't you see that in either case, you have no choice but to judge, unless you say you don't know if ANYONE is saved ? The key is to use the Bible to judge. quote: If you were a non-believer I'd have more hope because there wouldn't be the assumption of salvation to get through, just the message of a personal experience with God. Which is what I'm telling you, but you won't hear anything beyond 'you're not saved right now'. quote: Jesus said many will call Him Lord, and yet not be saved. quote: I appreciate it, but do the first commandment first - 'Why say you love me and do not the things I say'.... quote: This is somewhat true, but Bible Christianity is not anarchy, by any means. quote: You cannot, CANNOT use the Bible to prove the Bible wrong. A house divided against itself will fall. Yes, faith comes by hearing Gods Word, but to build yourself up in the faith, you need to pray in the Spirit. Both statements are true, and from the Bible. First faith needs to come, then you, having faith, need to build yourself in it. quote: Jesus said this was a model of the sort of prayer the Apostles should use. It's still valid, so long as it's sentiments are used as a model, rather than the words spoken parrot fashion. Paul said it was important to pray in our understanding ( presumably using Jesus example as a model ), and also in the Spirit. You need to do both. I'm not throwing anything, and you're rambling. quote: You need to stop putting yourself down. Even as a oke it's representative of poor self esteem, and I should know. I talked like this all the time before I was a Christian, even when I thought I was one by the same reasoning you are using here. quote: In the 80's I had long hair, and I had a lot of trouble getting churches to consider that anything worthwhile lived behind what they saw as an act of rebellion. I would make no judgements of your character based on your appearance. quote: Having established that you're not a Christian, it seems to me you can drink whatever you like. I had trouble stopping my drinking when I went to churces that didn't preach the Gospel. When I recieved the Spirit, the desire left me entirely and never came back. quote: What an odd thought... quote: I'm sorry, if you have a learning difficulty I didn't mean to rip on you for your spelling. I presumed you were just typing too fast. If you have trouble spelling, that's cool. I'll just try harder to follow it. My own testimony is that I was brought up to know I was not wanted, and I believed it. I was a miserable person who basically hated myself. I started going to different churches, and they told me I was saved because I believed ( or that I was evil because I had long hair, but that's another story ). I believed I was saved and tried to live the life, but ended up drunk or stoned ( more drunk, I didn't take addictive drugs ), and then hating myself for it. It was a vicious circle that only ended when someone told me the true Gospel. When I recieved the Spirit, I spoke in tongues as every Christian does, but far more noticable to me was feeling the love of God for the first time. It was the first time I felt love from anyone, and it was awesome. My personality changed in a moment, because in a moment I suddenly believed I had a right to live, and more than that, the Creator had chosen me to live forever. I lost the desire to drink ( and I had tried that for years before ), and I stopped swearing. Lots of other changes, but that's the major ones, I guess. I hope that clarifies why I would go into forums full of people who have accepted the Gospel I thought had saved my soul, and later found to be a lie based on misinterpretations of some Bible verses and flat out ignoring others. |
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Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
Well someone just posted something and I read a little ferther then what was just posted. It said, Galatians C5 V26 "Let us not become conceited, or irritate one another, or be jealous of one another" I think we both Irritate eachother and have alot of missunderstandings. I also dont want to go back and reply to all that mess. Not worth the time at the momment. My wife is up and I want to spend time with her. Also your childhood seems close to mine. Other then you didnt mention that you spent till about 16-17 alone talking to yourself. But this isnt a pitty party for me so enough of that. Ive watched people fling around Gods word and I always told myself I wouldnt get deep into that. Im about to if this muck keeps up. So im going to quit here befor I become a hipocrit and relize ive become the type of people I typcly really wish to avoide. Oh and I will answer two qustions of yours. They have nothing to do with the Bible. One I do not wish to use spell check. I also daily have my wife tell me how to spell words right. So I am learning at the age 21. Also if I use spell check I dont always get the right word for the right meaning. The other thing was you said I seem insucure and other stuff. Up untill yesterday I was One other note I do rambul. I speak whats on my mind. It is how I am and might even be a mental condition but my shrink hasnt told me yet. He saw me once and said I should have a norm Job. Also you say you have little sleep. Well I dont know if you can beet me at little sleep. I get on avrige about 3 hours worth of sleep every 24 hours. Sometimes less. Sometimes I stay up for 24 hours and sleep about 2 hours and then wake right back up and stay up for another 18 hours. I never know when I might get a wink of sleep. Ive been up sence yesterday around 4pm. That was after a 2 hour long nap. Befor then I work up at 2am. and that was after a 1 and a half hour nap. Befor then I was probably up for about 16 hours. I dont get sleep. That might be the reason I ramble on like this. Im not sure wether im asleep or awake most of my day. Im still awak now at 7AM and I still dont feel sleepy. Im tired yes. But if I go to bed I wont get any rest. If I get rest that last for about 9 hours I wake up ever hour out of thows 9 hours and stay up for 15 minnits trying to get back to sleep. So if you havent gotten the point by now Im a little edgie and its not really my falt. 3 sleeping pills cant knock me out. So my wife is telling me to breath. That means I need a space Anyways its ben fun. If you wish to keep getting long rambling letters like this from me keep posting for more ^_^ Or if you dont post what you like and I will ignor it if it has no comments towords me. I only got into all this cuz I was awake and had nothing better to do. ------------------ |
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plunkg Member Posts: 11 From: Cincinnati, OH, USA Registered: 01-23-2002 |
MeanMan said: I'm still referring back to scripture I've already quoted and no-one has responded to. Acts 8, Jude 20-21, etc. I'd be happy to address those scriptures if you would be so kind as to list precisely which they are and what you claim about them. So far we disagree, and I welcome the opportunity to learn to see things from your angle.
Quite true. However a corrolary to that is that you cannot draw one conclusion from the Bible which is not borne up by the ENTIRE Bible, which it seems you do. ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: I think we both Irritate eachother and have alot of missunderstandings. I'm not irritated, are you ? quote: I didn't tell you the half of it because it was late. I was diagnosed schizophrenic because my family was so abnormal when I told a counsellor about them it was assumed I was dellusional. quote: I'm too old to cope with that - I get woken up a lot by the kids but I'd get 5 hours a night. You win :-) plunkg: you appear to have posted a new thread, so I'll answer you there :0) |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
plunkg, it appears it wasn't you who wrote the new thread.... But you knew that, didn't you ?
quote: I've listed a lot of scriptures in the 'MeanManOz read this' thread above.
quote: Actually I believe the reverse is true, in that some scriptures say we must believe to be saved, which is vague, and people tend to take this to mean that if they have a belief in Jesus they are a Christian. The verses I point to tell us who Jesus is and what it is He would have us believe about Him, the 'believe and be saved' scriptures assume we know these things, and the verses I point to explain them. The two work together in my world and contradict for people who think that belief in God = salvation. Acts 8 is the best place to start with this, because the baptised believers did not have the Spirit. This is not possible if belief saves, for 'without the Spirit of Christ we are none of His'. I know Acts 8 does not mention tongues, I find it intetesting that Luke assumes we know how they could know if someone had the Spirit, and in any case, I look to other scriptures to support my belief it was tongues. I'm happy to hear of scriptures that lead you to believe it was something else, but for it to be a sign at all it needed to be consistent, i.e. it needs to happen in Acts 2, 10 and 19 if it happens whenever someone becomes a Christian. |
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Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
Naaa im not upset at all. Just bizzy working on art now and talking to alot of friends about games and work. So I have to do that. My calling comes befor all this stuff. ------------------ |
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plunkg Member Posts: 11 From: Cincinnati, OH, USA Registered: 01-23-2002 |
MeanMan, you have cited many scriptures which you say support your view, and I have read all of them in multiple translations (including Young's, which you wisely recommend in another post). No matter how I look at it, none of them are anything but ambiguous in regard to the claims you make about them. Acts 8, for example, states simply that some believers had not received the Spirit, but had merely been baptized. This says only that they are two distinct events. It says nothing at all about what receiving the Spirit looks like or constitutes. Whether or not a person has/received the Spirit might be determined in a number of ways. Through them speaking in tongues - yes that's one way. Through another believer's spiritual gift of discernment might be another way, revelation another, etc. This is inconclusive. We weren't there - we don't know - probably not important anyway. You claim that Jude teaches that our faith is increased by praying in the Spirit. Why in the world would that be the only way? Personally, my faith has been increased greatly by being tested. Inconclusive. Several times you have commented that 1 Cor 12 and 14 confer upon all believers certain gifts. Again, these scriptures are ambiguous. One might conclude from 12:7-11 that everyone gets all the gifts, as you do (if I understand you correctly). But you could also read it to mean that different gifts are given to different believers. Since Paul prefaces that passage by stating that there are "diversities of gifts" - NIV "different kinds of gifts" - but the same Spirit, I err on the latter interpretation. This is further borne up by what we can simply observe about one another. There are things that I'm not good at that you probably are. There are things that I'm good at that you're probably not. This is a natural consequence of the way each individual is spiritually 'wired'. God did not make us in cookie-cutter fashion. That's part of the beauty and richness of life - diversity. That's why we are called individuals. Furthermore, Paul says in Ro 12:6, "we have different gifts". Again, the 1Cor passages are inconclusive for either your argument or mine. And again, probably not important. You've also commented upon what is 'assumed' we know when we read the Bible. For example:
quote: This is yet more ambiguity. And no, I'm not 'looking for an order, not an offer'. I'm looking for theological and transliteral consistency, and I'm not seeing anything but assumptions. And this is why I said that you can't draw conclusions that are not borne out by the entirety of scripture. As others have mentioned, many groups do this in different ways. My neighbor claims the Bible clearly asserts the inferiority of people of color. To him, I suppose it does. To me, that assertion isn't supported by the whole of scripture, and is indeed contradicted. To you, scripture dictates that you aren't saved unless you have the gift of speaking in tongues. To me, that assertion isn't supported by the whole of scripture, and if that is the case, it doesn't hold up either. Speaking in tongues was a gift of great usefulness to the spread of the Gospel in the first century. At Pentecost, tongues were a strategem in God's plan because people from other countries - who spoke other languages - were present, and thus allowed them to hear the Gospel in their own language. This began the spread of the Gospel beyond Palestine. And it seems to me that God gives all the spiritual gifts for just such purposes - to be used as he sees fit in transforming people into the image of his son. Therefore, to me, speaking in tongues is nothing but a tool in God's arsenal - not a prerequisite to redemption. Furthermore, with modern communication as we now have it, speaking in tongues is a less useful tool, and that, at least, is one reason why it is rarely seen. It's simply not needed. There are a couple of common themes that pervade the entire Bible: God is Holy, His people are sinful and require redemption, He desires faith, and He will provide the means. You can find these threads in every book of the Bible. But try as I might, I can't find the smallest indication that speaking in tongues had any role at all in the OT. And this is why I balk at the notion that it is required for salvation. I am a Gentile. The Bible tells us that I inherit the right to have a relationship with God through Abraham. It tells us that Abraham was credited righteousness through his faith in God. It tells us that we are saved by grace, through faith. Just like Abraham. (For scripture references, see Ge 15, Ro 4, Eph 2.) Now faith=belief+action. Therefore the NT tells us that we are saved by the grace which we obtain through belief+action, and that is corraborated by the OT. That is a thread I can apply throughout the Bible - one that is upheld by intense theological scrutiny, doesn't require an arcane interpretation of certain scriptures, doesn't require any assumptions at all, and - perhaps above all - is just too beautifully simple for us to screw up. And that is why I believe that a Christian is saved when he believes that Christ paid for his sins. The Bible is full of examples of why having lots of rules, conditions and restrictions doesn't work. If it did, we wouldn't need Christ - all we'd have to do is check the right boxes. God made it simple. Keep it that way. ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: John 3:8 in the Youngs is ambiguous ? What do you propose it means ?
quote: I have noted it does not mention tongues. Show me one verse where a person recieves relevation as the sign of the Spirit, or discernment, and I will accept the possibility. Also explain how discernment would be obvious to the onlooker. With a body of converts, by your theroy, the sign would be different for different people. You're telling *me* that I'm complicating things ? The sign in the Bible when nominated is always tongues. The onus is on your to explain why Lukme assumes we know how they could tell, and what you presume from the Bible they expected to see.
quote: I just quoted it, I'm sorry that you're not addressing the verse instead of your own experience.
quote: BUT THE manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone. Not AND A manifestation.
quote: I'm sorry but my wiring comes from God, and where I fellowship, all speak in tongues, all have faith, all can pray to be healed or use the voice gifts, etc.
quote: We as people are diverse - God's love to us each is the same and so is our need for salvation, and for each of the gifts.
quote: 'according to the proportion of our faith'. 1 Cor 14 ( I note you're not addressing chapter 14 saying 'you can all prophecy', or 'each of you has a tongue, an intepretation, etc. ) urges all in Corinth to seek to use prophecy. I contend Romans is telling us our gifts differ according to our faith to use them, not that God who 'gives every man the measure of faith' gives some more faith than others.
quote: They are the single largest body of scripture on the gifts in the church. They are the best place to settle the question I raise, and the verses I quote often which you've not commented on are pretty clear and conclusive.
quote: My only assumption is that when Luke looked for a sign of the Holy Spirit, he looked for the same sign that was consistently seen throughout the book of Acts. I don't think that unreasonable, certainly less so than you listing gifts from 1 Cor 12 as potential signs that never *were* the sign in scripture.
quote: I'm sorry you have to live next to a racist. It sounds like you've been more civil than I would find myself wanting to be about it. I get pretty fired up about people trying to use the Bible to support any prejudice, regardless of how sincere they are.
quote: I feel you've failed to address the key scriptures, although you've come close to them. 1 Cor 14, John 3:8, 1 Cor 12 saying that there are many gifts in contrast to one manufestation, criticising my assumptions in Acts 8, which I *always* make and also invite alternative views. Saying it doesn't matter is plain wrong, it's in the Bible, it's meant to be understood by followers of Christ. I'm not sure how your view of salvation doctrine accounts for unsaved believers, but I'm interested to hear it.
quote: 1 Cor 14 says no man understands tongues. Paul wrote a ton of letters supporting and instructing churches. How could anyone support churches in this way if they all spoke differing languages that none of the Apostles knew ? Tongues were NOT earthly languages used to preach the Gospel.
quote: I understand your view of tongues is based on ignorance and asusmption from reading Acts 2, where indeed they were understood, as the church age began, but you're simply wrong. I'm sorry, but there it is :-)
quote: Try Zeph 3:9. Or the tower of Babel - mankind seperated by differing languages and in this age united by a common, spiritual language. However, tongues is of far less importance than God's Love, and to be honest, should not rate much of a OT mention simply because it would have made no sense to the reader, nor been relevant to them. God was interested in proclaiming the coming salvation, not the tools provided for the job.
quote: I don't need to look them up, I affirm all these things.
quote: Absolutely.
quote: Except the ones in Acts 8, initially ? Luke 11 in the Greek has Jesus telling us to keep on asking for the Holy Spirit until we recieve. Why keep asking if asking = reciept ( except in Acts 8 ), and how do we know we have the Spirit ?
quote: Absolutely - the issue is that under Law people felt they had a list of things to do to be justified, under grace we do all we can for God out of gratitude and love. Another reason why, salvation issue or not, if someone loves God IMO they will want to accept anything He is offering and do anything He asks of them.
quote: It couldn't be simpler. |
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plunkg Member Posts: 11 From: Cincinnati, OH, USA Registered: 01-23-2002 |
*sighs*
quote: Yes, it's highly ambiguous, and the subject of much debate among scholars and theologians who are much more educated on the subject than I. Again, this verse is not specific. Even if it isn't taken in the similitical sense of the Spirit being like the wind, it also doesn't state anything about speaking tongues or the necessity thereof. You might take in that sense, but I feel you are adding to the scripture something that is not there - namely the restriction that SIT is the true and only manifestation of the Spirit. It simply doesn't say or even imply that. I would refer you to Matthew Henry's comments on the passage:
And that's how I would explain it.
quote: I guess I failed to make my point here, and it is simply this: you are using this passage to support your argument when there really isn't any language here to indicate how the Spirit was recognized either way. It is you who makes the assumption - not Luke - and your assumption doesn't hold up. I won't seek to explain something that isn't present. There just isn't enough here to build a doctrine from, so I have a hard time giving it any credence.
quote: Granted. I added this hastily when trying to finish the post. As I read Jude 20:21, faith is not dependent upon praying in the Spirit. In fact, they aren't even linked, but that they are both spiritual disciplines, useful for keeping ourselves in God's love. Again, there is no explicit language here to support what you say.
quote: Again, you're adding something that's not there. Paul prefaces this verse by saying that there are different gifts, and follows by listing what some of them are. I am not willing to assume that Paul assumed we knew the manifestation was the gift of tongues - especially since he includes that gift in the list following, and elsewhere equates them all, proclaiming all the gifts as important and key to the edification of the body.
quote: True.
quote: Yep.
quote: Nope. Ro 12:6 again says our gifts differ according to the grace given us. He admonishes us not to think ourselves better than others, because we have all been given faith. He then proceeds to describe how we are all different but necessary and valuable. Spiritual gifts here are linked with grace, not faith. Same in 1Cor 12. In 1Cor 14, Paul states that he would like all the members at Corinth to have the gift of tongues in verse 5. You would contend that in verse 26 he indicates that all have certain gifts. This is contradictory to what he has already said in v5, as well as the other areas I've listed. I think the NIV is more concise here, where it separates some of the clauses in 26 with 'or'.
quote: By this I mean that any nuance in the scripture is semantic, and not important to understanding the context and message of the passage, or relevant to applying - or being redeemed.
quote: My point is that there is no such thing. cf my points about faith, grace and belief.
quote: Thanks.
quote: OK, one more time: my point is that if SIT were pivotal to our salvation, we would find Biblical precedent for it throughout the entire Bible. We do not find that, but we do find the basis for salvation solely through faith. We find numerous characters who were justified by faith, with no mention of them speaking in tongues.
quote: The scripture doesn't say that they weren't saved. Or, put another way, it doesn't say that they were still condemned because they hadn't received the Spirit. I reiterate: it merely states that they had been baptized, but had not yet been indwelt by the Spirit.
My Pastor has suggested I obtain and read Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur, which I intend to do. Perhaps you'd like to as well, MeanMan. ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: First of all, the Bible is clear Jesus only spoke in parables. Given that He is talking about something that relates to everyone who is born of the Spirit, I'd contend that whatever it means should be as obvious as the parables are to us now and were not to them at the time. So what does it mean ?
quote: With what evident effects ? What namely does it mean when you hear the voice of the Spirit but cannot tell from where it comes or where it goes ?
quote: In other words, it doesn't mean anything ? If you want to claim that salvation comes when people believe, Acts 8 blows your doctrine to smithereens. That it doesn't bother to (again) specify that tongues is how they knew does not change the fact that we have a group of baptised believers here who are unsaved. That is my core contention from these verses.
quote: I think the core issue here is the exhortation to pray in the Spirit, and the fact that 1 Cor 14 defines this as tongues.
quote: WHAT ?
quote: The key issue HERE is NOT that tongues is THE manifestation, but that Paul states clearly there are many gifts BUT THE maniestation is given to all. THe langues is clear - many gifts, one manifestation. Acts 2, 10 and 19 show us what that is quite clearly enough for me.
quote: 12:6 And we have different gifts,3 according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith. 12:7 If it is service, he must serve; if it is teaching, he must teach; 12:8 if it is exhortation, he must exhort; if it is contributing, he must do so with sincerity; if it is leadership, he must do so with diligence; if it is showing mercy, he must do so with cheerfulness. In context this is talking not about the 1 Cor 12 gifts, it omits several and mentions others. These gifts are all gifts of serving the church, and they are given according to the need the church has for them. You can't add tongues to a list of gifts here, any more than you can remove faith from 1 Cor 12 ( I'm not suggesting you would, but suggesting 1 Cor 12 is about gifts only some have would be easier to believe if it was not there ).
quote: 1 Cor 12 LISTS faith among it's gifts, and it's these gifts I am refering to. How many Christians do you know without faith ? Or who have no need of wisdom or discernment ? Does God offer healing to only some Christians ? Heaven forbid !
quote: The context is clearly of a church meeting. In that context he says he'd like them all the speak in tongues, but more that they all prophecy. The fact he goes on to say that prophecy edifies the church proves the context. v6 does not state they couldn't all speak in tongues, he's talking about USING the gift.
quote: That is not concise, it adds to the length of the verse and what's more, is not present in the Greek. Even if it were, it could still be taken to mean that each person could do any one of these things.
quote: OK, so Acts 8 leads you to believe in salvation apart from the Holy Spirit ? *confused*
quote: 1 Cor 13 makes clear that tongues is merely a vehicle. What marked the moment of my salvation for me was not tongues especially, but the love of God undoing the scars of my childhood. I became a new person in an instant. the BIble pattern being followed I also spoke in tongues. What I am saying is that tongues are only pivotal nowadays because they have been rejected as divisive by churchianity as a whole and the world is full of sincere believers who have no idea what the sign of the Spirit is, and have been reading their Bibles while making a false asumption. The thread of tongues is there in the OT, but not as prominent as GOds love, for tongues is a tool for this age, and love is eternal.
quote: So you DO believe in salvation without the Holy Spirit ? Or do you believe in an indwelling that occurs apart from salvation ? Either way, I'd love to see this in the Bible.
quote: I could not agree more. The issue is faith in what message, essentially. I merely contend the grace of God extends to giving tongues as the sign of the Spirit. I don't deny or dimish the power of GOds grace and love towards us, or that this is the centrepiece of the Gospel.
quote: Except in Acts 8, where they didn't. God would that no man perish, yet Jesus said it is a narrow gate that few will find. The argument that Aunt Lucy goes to church, believes in God and is a nice person is sadly irrelevant. God having made the offer, it is not His fault that it is rejected, or simply not understood.
quote: I can only imagine. My church stands seperate from the rest of the 'charismatic' world because of the excesses we see ( people being pushed over, the so called 'toronto blessing', etc. ), and I'd guess this book documents these sort of things. I experienced them while I was being told I was saved because I believed by various churches. |
hehehe. And another thing I am ani-religion. I bilive that all but one religion is folliy and that probably includes yours. The Bible ses Pure Religion is what we should be I will dig up the exact qute for you if you want. So for your info im not all pissy at you I am playful. I am in a great mood