General Christian Discussions

tounges - according to the bible – klumsy

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
Here is the Word straight from the bible 2 corinthians 12 (NLT), the bolding is my own.
(1)And now, dear brothers and sisters,I will write about the special abilities the Holy Spirit gives to each of us, for I must correct your misunderstandings about them.[ (2)You know that when you were still pagans you were led astray and swept along in worshiping speechless idols. (3)So I want you to know how to discern what is truly from God: No one speaking by the Spirit of God can curse Jesus, and no one is able to say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. (4)Now there are different kinds of spiritual gifts , but it is the same Holy Spirit who is the source of them all.(5)There are different kinds of service in the church, but it is the same Lord we are serving.(6)There are different ways God works in our lives, but it is the same God who does the work through all of us. (7) A spiritual gift is given to each of us as a means of helping the entire church.
(8)To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another he gives the gift of special knowledge . (9)The Spirit gives special faith to another , and to someone else he gives the power to heal the sick .(10)He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and to another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to know whether it is really the Spirit of God or another spirit that is speaking.[I] Still another person is given the [I][U]ability to speak in unknown languages[/U], and another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. (11) [U] It is the one and only Holy Spirit who distributes these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have. [/U]

12 The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up only one body. [U]So it is with the body of Christ[/U] 13 Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into Christ's body by one Spirit, and we have all received the same Spirit. 14 Yes, the body has many different parts, not just one part. 15 If the foot says, "I am not a part of the body because I am not a hand," that does not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear says, "I am not part of the body because I am only an ear and not an eye," would that make it any less a part of the body? 17 Suppose the whole body were an eye Ė then how would you hear? Or if your whole body were just one big ear, how could you smell anything? 18 But God made our bodies with many parts, and he has put each part just where he wants it. 19 What a strange thing a body would be if it had only one part! 20 Yes, there are many parts, but only one body. 21 The eye can never say to the hand, "I don't need you." The head can't say to the feet, "I don't need you." 22 In fact, some of the parts that seem weakest and least important are really the most necessary. 23 And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. So we carefully protect from the eyes of others those parts that should not be seen, 24 while other parts do not require this special care. So God has put the body together in such a way that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity. 25 This makes for harmony among the members, so that all the members care for each other equally. 26 If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it, and if one part is honored, all the parts are glad.
27 Now all of you together are Christ's body, and each one of you is a separate and necessary part of it. 28 Here is a list of some of the members that God has placed in the body of Christ:
first are apostles,
second are prophets,
third are teachers,
then those who do miracles,
those who have the gift of healing,
those who can help others,
those who can get others to work together,
those who speak in unknown languages.
29 Is everyone an apostle? Of course not. Is everyone a prophet? No. Are all teachers? Does everyone have the power to do miracles? 30 Does everyone have the gift of healing? Of course not. Does God give all of us the ability to speak in unknown languages? Can everyone interpret unknown languages? [U] No! [/U]31 And in any event, you should desire the most helpful gifts. First, however, let me tell you about something else that is better than any of them!
chapter 13
1 [U]If I could speak in any language in heaven or on earth but didn't love others, I would only be making meaningless noise like a loud gong or a clanging cymbal[/U]
That is the word of God.. sure the highlights are mine.. i'd rather highlight the word of God than rationalise everything
let everybody here, read the word of God, pray about it and let the Holy Spirit imprint on your hearts the truth in the matter..
its not about me being right , or meanman being right, but about the truth of Christ liberating us, and us walking in His ways and with His help by the Holy Spirit.

Love Karl.

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
woops i assumed ubb had codes for underline...so if you see a [U] and a [/U] its meant to be underlined..

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
Awful translation, but if you want to believe some Christians have tongues, others have faith or wisdom, and ones without faith or wisdom or the ability to speak in tongues can pray to be healed, despite the *fact* that 1 Cor 14 promises tongues, interpretation & prophecy to all Christians, James says we can all pray for wisdom, and the other five gifts ( including faith, knowledge, discernment, healing & miracles ) are equally promised to all Christians elsewhere in the Bible, then I see no point in arguing.

This translation really is awful - which one is it ?

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
new living translation..
I don't think it aweful.. i like it for a modern one though i read a variety of translations
every christian has faith according to hte measure given him, thought some are given special doses...

I believe you can have more gifts that one, and you can ask God for gifts
and he will give them to you..

hoever i don't believe every christian has to have tounges?
or as you say that
"All christians speak in tounges" and thus one who doesn't isn't a christian. I believe that statement a dangerous heresy..
i know many churches who use tounges and many individuals.. but i only know of cults who insist of tongue speaking to be saved..

Karl

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Angel

Member

Posts: 699
From: The Blissful State Of Me?
Registered: 05-21-2001
I pray for more faith and more love and more joy.

------------------
Peaza Cheez Mates!
Azariah "Angel"

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
Angel - that's great, but did you know the Bible says that prayer in the Spirit is the way to build your faith ( Jude 20-21 ) ?
Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Heya,

Klumsy: Wanted to correct you on the verse...it's actually 1 Corinthians 12, not 2 Corithians 12...just in case anyone was looking it up like I was

All: I have the NIV version, and it seems to translate about the same...except that it says "speaking in tongues" instead of "speaking in languages". But the notes state that the translation can be made either way. Here's the last part (vs 22-) to demonstrate the NIV version:


22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are
indispensable,
23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special
honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special
modesty,
24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has
combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts
that lacked it,
25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts
should have equal concern for each other.
26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is
honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second
prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having
gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of
administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work
miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most
excellent way.

I also checked out 1 Cor 14 and I'm not seeing anything that nails down the speaking of tongues as an imperative toward truly being Christian. I'll snag a few verses that seem to indicate it's not:


1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially
the gift of prophecy.
2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.
Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening,
encouragement and comfort.
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies
the church.
5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather
have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in
tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

So here I see that speaking in tongues does improve ones spiritual relationship with God (according to the literal definition of the word "edify", which says "Late Latin aedificare: to instruct or improve spiritually"). Paul shows that while he would like everyone to speak in tongues, he'd rather that they have the gift of prophecy. Now, if I take that in conjunction with 1 Cor 12, vs 11, which says:


"11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them
to each one, just as he determines."

I come to the conclusion that only the Spirit determines which gifts to give...but no conclusion that the gift granted is the final arbitor of salvation.

What's also interesting is that Paul basically goes out of his way to say that speaking in tongues shouldn't be done publically unless there is one with the gift of interpretation around:


"27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak,
one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter,
the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and
God."

Again this points to the diversity of gifts provided by the Holy Spirit as a necessity for making a "body".

Going back to 1 Cor 12:


14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to
the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to
the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If
the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?
18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them,
just as he wanted them to be.
19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?
20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot
say to the feet, "I don't need you!"
22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are
indispensable,
23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special
honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special
modesty,
24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has
combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts
that lacked it,
25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts
should have equal concern for each other.
26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is
honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Paying particular attention to 18 and 19, God makes the determination as to which part of the "body" each of us shall be. Okay, so that's in accordance to vs 11 where the Spirit gives out the gifts as he so determines. But I see no evidence here or in 1 Cor 14 that only by the gift of Tongues is one recognized as a "true" Christian.

Now, as I was going through Acts 10, I got to this verse and found it interesting:


44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all
who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that
the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter
said,
47 "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have
received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then
they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

This is an interesting case where it shows the Gentiles speaking in tongues as the Spirit came upon them. Now, on the one hand it could be proclaimed that when the Spirit fills someone, they will speak in tongues. On the other hand it could be that the Spirit chose to have them speak in tongues for the purpose to shock Peter and his followers into understanding that salvation is just as much for Gentiles as it is for Jews. I say this because, if you read further up in that chapter, you'll see the vision that Peter has about the unclean animals:


9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and
approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.
10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was
being prepared, he fell into a trance.
11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to
earth by its four corners.
12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of
the earth and birds of the air.
13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
14 "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure
or unclean."
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that
God has made clean."

From here Peter is to go and meet a Gentile (Cornelious) to share the Gospel. When he gets there, he's shocked again:


33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we
are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has
commanded you to tell us."
34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does
not show favoritism
35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right."

The final shock, then, that finally drives the nail home for Peter is when he sees Gentiles exhibiting the most pronounced and immediately recognizable gift of the Spirit...tongues.

I've typed waaaaaaaay too much and I admit that I'm still studying, but these are my findings thus far. I realize that I have a somewhat biased opinion of this topic, so my effort appears more as an attempt to disprove, but that's really not my goal. My goal is to find evidence for or against tongues as a mark of true Christian, and thus far I see no supporting evidence to that effect.

God bless you all,

-Krylar

------------------

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
quote:

All: I have the NIV version, and it seems to translate about the same...except that it says "speaking in tongues" instead of "speaking in languages". But the notes state that the translation can be made either way. Here's the last part (vs 22-) to demonstrate the NIV version:

NIV is fine by me. SIT is just a terminology the terminology varies from translation to translation, so that is really not an issue to me either.

quote:

22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker areindispensable,23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with specialhonor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with specialmodesty,24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God hascombined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the partsthat lacked it,25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its partsshould have equal concern for each other.26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

My comment for just about everything you've said on 1 Cor is to remind you that the context is of the church coming together, and working together to make a meeting happen. The question being asked above is DO all speak in tongues ( in a meeting ). No. 1 Cor 14:26 answers the questions CAN all speak in tongues. It's the difference between what we're able to do, and what we should.

quote:

I also checked out 1 Cor 14 and I'm not seeing anything that nails down the speaking of tongues as an imperative toward truly being Christian. I'll snag a few verses that seem to indicate it's not:

This book is not written to point out that all Christians speak in tongues, the issue is mainly that it's written to a church were it's obvious all did speak in tongues and they were encouraged to all prophecy as well.

quote:

1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

So here I see that speaking in tongues does improve ones spiritual relationship with God (according to the literal definition of the word "edify", which says "Late Latin aedificare: to instruct or improve spiritually"). Paul shows that while he would like everyone to speak in tongues, he'd rather that they have the gift of prophecy.


In context he's talking about a meeting, what gifts are used. 1 Cor 14 below states they all could SIT and could all prophecy, so it's obvious he's talking about use, not having. In any case, your view seems to be that God gives different gifts to different people, and some gifts are better than others. That doesn't make sense, if God deals with us all equally. 'of His fullness you have all recieved', etc.

quote:

Now, if I take that in conjunction with 1 Cor 12, vs 11, which says:

"11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines."

I come to the conclusion that only the Spirit determines which gifts to give...but no conclusion that the gift granted is the final arbitor of salvation.


The key verses here are the ones that state there are many gifts, but the manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone. If you want to translate this as 'and a manifestation', then you also need to show where the different gifts where the manifestation in the NT ( principally Acts ), and explain why faith and healing didn't cut the mustard in Acts 8.

quote:

What's also interesting is that Paul basically goes out of his way to say that speaking in tongues shouldn't be done publically unless there is one with the gift of interpretation around:

"27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God."

Again this points to the diversity of gifts provided by the Holy Spirit as a necessity for making a "body".


Absolutely - in 1 Cor 14 he also says if you speak in tongues you should pray to interpret - both gifts in the one person. This adds perspective to some interpretations of 1 Cor 14:26. He also tells them not to SIT all at once, and tells them he is more glad than them all for the gift.


quote:

Going back to 1 Cor 12:


14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty,24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Paying particular attention to 18 and 19, God makes the determination as to which part of the "body" each of us shall be. Okay, so that's in accordance to vs 11 where the Spirit gives out the gifts as he so determines. But I see no evidence here or in 1 Cor 14 that only by the gift of Tongues is one recognized as a "true" Christian.


I dislike 'true' Christian as a terminology, someone either is or isn't one. However, that's my hang up :-)

The context is again of a meeting. Does the same person always preach in your church ? I presume not, but for there to be order, when the church comes together only one person will preach at a time, yes ?

quote:

Now, as I was going through Acts 10, I got to this verse and found it interesting:


44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,47 "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

This is an interesting case where it shows the Gentiles speaking in tongues as the Spirit came upon them. Now, on the one hand it could be proclaimed that when the Spirit fills someone, they will speak in tongues. On the other hand it could be that the Spirit chose to have them speak in tongues for the purpose to shock Peter and his followers into understanding that salvation is just as much for Gentiles as it is for Jews. I say this because, if you read further up in that chapter, you'll see the vision that Peter has about the unclean animals:


9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners.12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air.13 Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."14 "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

From here Peter is to go and meet a Gentile (Cornelious) to share the Gospel. When he gets there, he's shocked again:


33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right."

The final shock, then, that finally drives the nail home for Peter is when he sees Gentiles exhibiting the most pronounced and immediately recognizable gift of the Spirit...tongues.



I agree that in this case it's obvious the gift of tongues is how he knew they had the Spirit, but it's also how they knew in Acts 19, when Paul said ' have you recieved the Spirit since you believed ' ? Acts 10 nowhere suggests their all speaking in tongues was unusual.

quote:

I've typed waaaaaaaay too much and I admit that I'm still studying, but these are my findings thus far. I realize that I have a somewhat biased opinion of this topic, so my effort appears more as an attempt to disprove, but that's really not my goal. My goal is to find evidence for or against tongues as a mark of true Christian, and thus far I see no supporting evidence to that effect.

The key verses to me are John 3:8 (Youngs Literal Translation to see what it actually says ), Mark 16, Acts 2 ( where Peter identifies the Holy Spirit with what the people saw and heard - tongues ), and Acts 8 ( because it proves that there is such a thing as an unsaved believer, although it does not mention tongues ).

Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Hiya,

Thanks for taking the time to write me back

quote:

My comment for just about everything you've said on 1 Cor is to remind you
that the context is of the church coming together, and working together to
make a meeting happen. The question being asked above is DO all speak in
tongues ( in a meeting ). No. 1 Cor 14:26 answers the questions CAN all
speak in tongues. It's the difference between what we're able to do, and
what we should.

I see what you're saying here, but in light of that I'd argue that we
can't use 1 Cor as a definitive on this discussion. I say this because it
will only address a context which is specific to the coming together as a
church, and thus puts the SIT issue as just another gift that has its
place.

quote:

This book is not written to point out that all Christians speak in
tongues, the issue is mainly that it's written to a church were it's
obvious all did speak in tongues and they were encouraged to all prophecy
as well.

I still haven't seen evidence that it's obvious. It may come to a point
where it becomes obvious to me, but as of yet nothing I've studied
demonstrates this.

quote:

In context he's talking about a meeting, what gifts are used. 1 Cor 14
below states they all could SIT and could all prophecy, so it's obvious
he's talking about use, not having. In any case, your view seems to be
that God gives different gifts to different people, and some gifts are
better than others. That doesn't make sense, if God deals with us all
equally. 'of His fullness you have all recieved', etc.

I'll go along with the "obvious he's talking about use, not having", but I
still don't see where it states that they *all* could SIT. What verse am
I missing here? Also, I see no gift that is better than another gift.
This is looking at gifts through man's eyes, not God's. Saying that SIT is
more important that translation or prophecy, etc. is a human judgment.

And I agree that God deals with us equitably. His fullness is experienced
in all, yes, but I see no correlation here to gifts. This is symantical.

quote:

The key verses here are the ones that state there are many gifts, but the
manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone. If you want to translate
this as 'and a manifestation', then you also need to show where the
different gifts where the manifestation in the NT ( principally Acts ),
and explain why faith and healing didn't cut the mustard in Acts 8.

I admit that Acts 8 has me perplexed, but not as a SIT issue. I still see
no evidence in Acts 8 that SIT is defined as the only proof of the Spirit
indwelling a person. Yet it is very interesting that one can accept
Christ and not have the Spirit. This is must continue to study.

quote:

Absolutely - in 1 Cor 14 he also says if you speak in tongues you should
pray to interpret - both gifts in the one person. This adds perspective to
some interpretations of 1 Cor 14:26. He also tells them not to SIT all at
once, and tells them he is more glad than them all for the gift.

I must be missing something in there cause I don't see anything that talks
about both gifts dwelling in one person. Could both gifts? Yes, of course
the could. But is that always the case? I see no evidence of this.
14:26 shows how all the different persons have different gifts to bring to
the table, is this what you're referring to? Here's the text (NIV):


What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a
hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an
interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the
church.

Now, from this it can be said that the key word is "everyone". But that
is another symantical argument is unsubstantiated by the word "or". If
the text say "everyone has a hymm, AND a word of instruction, AND a
revelation, AND ..." that would be a different story. Other
translastions, such as the New Living Translation translate that as
follows:

New Living Translation


26 Well, my brothers and sisters, letís summarize what I am saying. When
you meet, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some
special revelation God has given, one will speak in an unknown language,
while another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done
must be useful to all and build them up in the Lord.

Even Young's Literal uses the separative in this case:


What then is it, brethren? whenever ye may come together, each of you hath
a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an
interpretation? let all things be for building up;

To say that this means each has *all* of these is assumptive, and
unsubstantiated.

quote:

I dislike 'true' Christian as a terminology, someone either is or isn't
one. However, that's my hang up :-)

The context is again of a meeting. Does the same person always preach in
your church ? I presume not, but for there to be order, when the church
comes together only one person will preach at a time, yes ?


Hehehe

Agreed on the context of meeting.

quote:

I agree that in this case it's obvious the gift of tongues is how he knew
they had the Spirit, but it's also how they knew in Acts 19, when Paul
said ' have you recieved the Spirit since you believed ' ? Acts 10 nowhere
suggests their all speaking in tongues was unusual.

Acts 19 does show men SIT and engaging in Prophecy when they received the
Spirit, yes. But it does not indicate that it is the only sign, or only
proof of receiving the Spirit.

I must have miscommunicated on Acts 10. I did not mean to say that SIT
was unusual. I meant to say that to Peter it was a shock to see Gentiles
doing it...which, in context of the rest of that chapter, was the lesson
that God was teaching Peter. It was a lesson of prejudice. Peter was
being taught that Gentiles are just as loved as Jews.

quote:

The key verses to me are John 3:8 (Youngs Literal Translation to see what
it actually says ), Mark 16, Acts 2 ( where Peter identifies the Holy
Spirit with what the people saw and heard - tongues ), and Acts 8 (
because it proves that there is such a thing as an unsaved believer,
although it does not mention tongues ).

I went a step further than Young's Literal here. I went straight to the
Greek. As an aside, I don't know if you have any Bible software, but it's
really great for studying various translations and seeing the original
Hebrew/Greek for words and such. I use QuickVerse currently.

I'm going to post another post after this with my findings. This post is
getting too long

-Krylar

------------------

Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Hiya,

Here's my breakdown of John 3:8. I used QuickVerse, NIV, KJV with the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and the Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries.


NIV: "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you
cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with
everyone born of the Spirit."

KJV: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is
every one that is born of the Spirit."

Now let's take each primary word from the original Greek (from Strong's
Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries):


"wind" - pneuma (pronounced "pnyoo' -mah"): A current of air, that is,
breath (blast) or a breeze. (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy spirit
(ghost,life,spirit,mind).


"bloweth" - pneo` (pronounced "pneh' -o"): A primary word; to breath hard,
that is, breeze: -blow


"where" - hopou (pronounced "hop' -oo"): what(-ever) where, that is, at
whichever spot--in what place.


"listeth" - thelo` ethelo` (pronounced "thel'-o, eth-el'-o"): Either the
first or second form may be used. Means to determine, to choose or prefer;
by implication to be inclined to.


"hearest" - akouo` (pronounced "ak-oo'-o"): To hear (in various senses).
give in the audience of, come to the ears, be noised, be reported,
understand.


"sound" - pho`ne` (pronounced "fo-nay`"): Disclosure; a tone; by
implication an address (for any purpose), saying, or language:--noise,
sound, voice.


"thereof" - autos (pronounced "ow-tos'"): the reflexive pronoun self, used
of the third person, and of the other persons: her, it, itself, one, them,
etc.


"canst" - eido` (pronounced "i'-do"): a primary verb; used only in certain
past tenses. Properly means to see (literally or figuratively); by
implication (in the perfect only) to know: be aware, behold, consider,
look, perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, etc.


"tell" - means the same as "canst" except that the tense is present,
whereas "canst" is past tense.


"whence" - pothen (pronounced "poth'-en"): from which (as interrogitive)
or what (as relative) place, state, source or cause.


"commeth" - erchomai (pronounced "er'-khom-ahee"): to come or go (in a
great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany,
appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, pass, resort, be set, etc.


"whither" - pou (pronounced "poo"): as adverb of place; at (by implication
to) what locality:--where.


"goeth" - hupago` (pronounced "hoop-ag'-o"): to lead (oneself)
under...withdraw or retire (as if sinking out of sight), literally or
figuratively:--depart,get hence, go way, go away, etc.


"so" - houto` (pronounced "hoo'-to"): after that, after (in) this manner,
as, even, for all that, like, likewise, no more, on this fashion, thus,
what, etc.


"every" - pas (pronounced "pas"): Including all the forms of declension;
all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), always, any,
everyone, every way, as many as, whatsoever, whole, whosoever, etc.


"born" - gennao` (pronounced "ghen-nah'-o"): figuratively to regenerate.


"Spirit" - see "wind"

Now, looking at those, I will translate as follows:


My Translation: "The Holy Spirit blows in whichever spot it chooses to,
and you hear the voice of him, but you can't tell the place it comes from,
or where it goes: likewise this will be so of all that are born of the
Holy Spirit."

NIV: "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you
cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with
everyone born of the Spirit."

KJV: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is
every one that is born of the Spirit."

Clearly you can use as many of the above words to change that around as
much as you want, but then it's just another case of symantical
arguments.

Now, this *does* say that you'll *hear* the voice of the Holy Spirit
(assuming that is the word that you'd elect to choose from the many
meanings of the Greek "pho`ne`"). Yet it also states that you'll not know
where that voice comes from and where it goes. From here we get
symantical, because it can be argued that:


"...likewise this will be so of all that are born of the Holy Spirit."

a) translates that the voice of the Spirit will come through Christians in
the form of tongues and nobody will know where the tongues come from
(except for believers, who understand the gift).

b) translates that a person will speak the words the Spirit is feeding
that person. This is akin to various Biblical people that were afraid
because they didn't know what to say, but when they began speaking the
words just flowed as if they were also listening to those words in awe.

c) is completely metaphorical, meaning that the Spirit shows up when and
where He deems fit. You know something is there, because of a sound,
feeling, vision, etc., but you can't explain it, where it came from, or
where it went.

While I can see this verse being used as a case for the tongues
argument, I think that this is a real stretch, and requires a leap of
faith to achieve. I just don't see this as a definitive argument.

-Krylar

------------------

Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Hiya,

One last thing. If we all have all the gifts, then SIT is again just one
sign of many that a person is a Christian. Focusing in on SIT as THE gift
of proof is illogical. A Christian, under this scenario, must exhibit ALL
of the gifts to truly be a Christian.

Thus, 1 Cor 14:


What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a
hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an
interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the
church.

Taken without the OR would mean that any Christian must have the gift of hymm, teaching, revelation, tongues, and interpretation. If any one of these gifts is not present, that person is non-Christian. So using the SIT as the central point of the argument is irrelevant as ALL gifts must be there for a person to be a Christian.

I see no evidence of this being truth. In fact, I see just the opposite in the Corinthian text. Regardless of the coming together to meet, what would be the point of coming together at all if everyone had all the gifts already? Is it not the coming together of the body's parts that makes the body whole?

Okay...my wife is giving me "have we left yet?" looks now I have to run. I'll check back over the weekend as I can.

God bless you all!

-Krylar

------------------

MeanManInOz
Member

Posts: 388
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Registered: 06-26-2001
I'm going to try and trim this down. If you feel I ran scared from any of your points, please say so :-)

quote:

I'll go along with the "obvious he's talking about use, not having", but I
still don't see where it states that they *all* could SIT. What verse am
I missing here? Also, I see no gift that is better than another gift.
This is looking at gifts through man's eyes, not God's. Saying that SIT is
more important that translation or prophecy, etc. is a human judgment.

Paul actually says in the meeting context that prophecy is the 'better' gift. I'm not saying any gift is better, I'm also saying that there is no reason to make such claims, as they all come from God and are for every one.

quote:

I admit that Acts 8 has me perplexed, but not as a SIT issue. I still see
no evidence in Acts 8 that SIT is defined as the only proof of the Spirit
indwelling a person. Yet it is very interesting that one can accept
Christ and not have the Spirit. This is must continue to study.

I'm pleased, the last post I replied to had me thinking you didn't see my point. Acts 8 does not mention tongues, and while I could press that Luke assumes we know how they knew, the core issue is really that if belief = salvation and salvation comes by the Spirit, then Acts 8 records God breaking His promise. The only other option is that He didn't quite promise what you think He did.

quote:

To say that this means each has *all* of these is assumptive, and
unsubstantiated.

How about when it says 'you can all prophecy' ? There is no alternative given - they could all prophecy. Tongues is the only other gift that 14 makes clear they all had, but I'd suggest between them, and Paul saying that whoever speaks in tongues should also interpret, the rest of the stuff in 1 Cor 14:26 is irrelevant to the discussion.

quote:

Acts 19 does show men SIT and engaging in Prophecy when they received the
Spirit, yes. But it does not indicate that it is the only sign, or only
proof of receiving the Spirit.

No, it's just one of the places where the proof is nominated.

quote:

I must have miscommunicated on Acts 10. I did not mean to say that SIT
was unusual. I meant to say that to Peter it was a shock to see Gentiles
doing it...which, in context of the rest of that chapter, was the lesson
that God was teaching Peter. It was a lesson of prejudice. Peter was
being taught that Gentiles are just as loved as Jews.

Absolutely, and if this was the only place in the Bible they all recieved this gift it would be quite viable to suggest this was to prove to Peter salvation was possible for the Gentiles.

quote:

I use QuickVerse currently.

I used to use it, but now I use Nelsons as it also has Voice/Tense/Mood. Quickverse ( the old Quickverse ) had the best interface though.

quote:

Now, this *does* say that you'll *hear* the voice of the Holy Spirit
(assuming that is the word that you'd elect to choose from the many
meanings of the Greek "pho`ne`"). Yet it also states that you'll not know
where that voice comes from and where it goes. From here we get
symantical, because it can be argued that:

Excellent. Quickverse *does* come in handy, doesn't it ? ;-)

quote:

a) translates that the voice of the Spirit will come through Christians in
the form of tongues and nobody will know where the tongues come from
(except for believers, who understand the gift).

Believers do not understand it either, or do you mean just understand what it is ? 'where it goes' means no-one understand what you say. This interpretation makes sense in light of the fact that Jesus only spoke in parables, and that it is backed up by every account that tells us what happened when someone recieved the Holy Spirit.

quote:

b) translates that a person will speak the words the Spirit is feeding
that person. This is akin to various Biblical people that were afraid
because they didn't know what to say, but when they began speaking the
words just flowed as if they were also listening to those words in awe.

Then it would not be true that this happened at the point of recieving the Spirit, which is what Jesus is talking about.

quote:

c) is completely metaphorical, meaning that the Spirit shows up when and
where He deems fit. You know something is there, because of a sound,
feeling, vision, etc., but you can't explain it, where it came from, or
where it went.

Which is how it is usually viewed - it essentially means nothing of substance.

quote:

While I can see this verse being used as a case for the tongues
argument, I think that this is a real stretch, and requires a leap of
faith to achieve. I just don't see this as a definitive argument.

Ultimately the definitive argument is that Acts 8 requires visible proof, and then it's true that John 3:8 foretells it and Acts 2, 10 and 19 show us what it is. Usually when I speak to people who are not believers, I show them Acts 2, and then pray with them. When they recieve the Spirit they speak in tongues and that is that. It becomes a merry race around the scriptures only when talking to people who have a differing belief, which needs to be deconstructed from the bible bit by bit.

quote:

One last thing. If we all have all the gifts, then SIT is again just one
sign of many that a person is a Christian. Focusing in on SIT as THE gift
of proof is illogical. A Christian, under this scenario, must exhibit ALL
of the gifts to truly be a Christian.

Not so. We've let the word 'truly' slip in again....

There are many gifts, BUT THE manifestation is given to all. If someone has spoken in tongues they have the Spirit. Tongues is just window dressing to that fact, it is the Spirit that matters most. In the same way, if someone chooses not to use the gift of prophecy, it does not mean they cannot, nor does it negate that they have the Spirit, which is far more important than using any of the gifts that are merely a tool for this age.

quote:

I see no evidence of this being truth. In fact, I see just the opposite in the Corinthian text. Regardless of the coming together to meet, what would be the point of coming together at all if everyone had all the gifts already? Is it not the coming together of the body's parts that makes the body whole?

The body does not just come together to use the gifts, rather the gifts are there to faciliate the working together of the body. If I speak in tongues today at the meeting, if I preach, whatever, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that as those things come together to the operation of a meeting, I will be encouraged by hearing God talk through the gifts, hearing encouragement from the Bible, and fellowshipping with my fellow Christians. Again, the gifts are a tool, they are not the focal point. The love of God is.

Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Sorry it's been awhile...been super busy.

quote:

I'm going to try and trim this down. If you feel I ran scared from any of
your points, please say so :-)

Hehehe...nope, don't feel that way.

quote:

Paul actually says in the meeting context that prophecy is the 'better'
gift. I'm not saying any gift is better, I'm also saying that there is no
reason to make such claims, as they all come from God and are for every
one.

I agree that the gifts are available to everyone, but it's to God's discression who actually gets specific ones. Otherwise we'd all just either a) have them or b) work to meet some criteria to get them.

I can see how obedience and servitude, coupled with desire to extend one's ability to serve God (noting correct motivation), could show God that you are worthy to have certain (or all of the) gifts. Actually, I believe you'd said this elsewhere once. But if that's true then the Gentiles wouldn't have been SIT immediately or engaging in prophecy...it would have taken some time. Least that's how I see it.

quote:

I'm pleased, the last post I replied to had me thinking you didn't see my point. Acts 8 does not mention tongues, and while I could press that Luke assumes we know how they knew, the core issue is really that if belief = salvation and salvation comes by the Spirit, then Acts 8 records God breaking His promise. The only other option is that He didn't quite promise what you think He did.

Can't argue with you there. It's definately one for looking into further and praying about. Actually, I'm very grateful that you brought this to my attention. However, I'm still not seeing this as a case for tongues as *the* proof though. There is one verse that seems to contradict our thought that these people weren't saved prior to the Spirit coming to them...but I admit I've not given it full study (Romans 10: 9-10):


9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in
your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is
with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


quote:

How about when it says 'you can all prophecy' ? There is no alternative given - they could all prophecy. Tongues is the only other gift that 14 makes clear they all had, but I'd suggest between them, and Paul saying that whoever speaks in tongues should also interpret, the rest of the stuff in 1 Cor 14:26 is irrelevant to the discussion.

Actually, here's what I see from the NIV:


29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh
carefully what is said.
30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first
speaker should stop.
31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and
encouraged.

This doesn't imply that *all* can prophesy, but rather that all who do should do so not altogether, but one at a time.

...and in the beginning of 1 Cor 14


1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially
the gift of prophecy.
2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.
Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening,
encouragement and comfort.

And here why would someone need to "eagerly desire" the gift of prophecy if all Christians have it? Also, the implication in these three lines is that you may speak in tongues but not have the gift of prophecy.

quote:

I used to use it, but now I use Nelsons as it also has Voice/Tense/Mood.

I'll have to check into that one. I'm kind of a software junkie

quote:

Believers do not understand it either, or do you mean just understand what it is ? 'where it goes' means no-one understand what you say. This interpretation makes sense in light of the fact that Jesus only spoke in parables, and that it is backed up by every account that tells us what happened when someone recieved the Holy Spirit.

Meant that believers know what it is. I will have to run through the text and find every occurance of someone receiving the Holy Spirit to see the tongues thing. Thanks for the point.

quote:

Then it would not be true that this happened at the point of recieving the Spirit, which is what Jesus is talking about.

I would have to say this is assumptive. It *may* be what He's talking about, but I see no proof of that.

quote:

Which is how it is usually viewed - it essentially means nothing of substance.

True. I think it can certainly be a part of it, and likely has been. But I bow to the point.

quote:

Ultimately the definitive argument is that Acts 8 requires visible proof, and then it's true that John 3:8 foretells it and Acts 2, 10 and 19 show us what it is. Usually when I speak to people who are not believers, I show them Acts 2, and then pray with them. When they recieve the Spirit they speak in tongues and that is that. It becomes a merry race around the scriptures only when talking to people who have a differing belief, which needs to be deconstructed from the bible bit by bit.

I still see Acts 8 is simply a lesson to Peter (and the rest of us) that God's not prejudice and we have no right to be either.

Acts 2 talks of speaking in tongues, yes, but it specifically references that they are "other tongues". And the context of the verse shows that these were the various languages of the peoples in that city. Not the same tongue.

quote:

Not so. We've let the word 'truly' slip in again....

There are many gifts, BUT THE manifestation is given to all. If someone has spoken in tongues they have the Spirit. Tongues is just window dressing to that fact, it is the Spirit that matters most. In the same way, if someone chooses not to use the gift of prophecy, it does not mean they cannot, nor does it negate that they have the Spirit, which is far more important than using any of the gifts that are merely a tool for this age.


"truly" = sorry, habit

Unsupported by 1 Cor 14, vs 1-3, in my study. Is it A proof, yes. Is it THE proof...not that I can see.

quote:

The body does not just come together to use the gifts, rather the gifts are there to faciliate the working together of the body. If I speak in tongues today at the meeting, if I preach, whatever, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that as those things come together to the operation of a meeting, I will be encouraged by hearing God talk through the gifts, hearing encouragement from the Bible, and fellowshipping with my fellow Christians. Again, the gifts are a tool, they are not the focal point. The love of God is.

Totally, and well put.

I believe we're getting to a point of "agreeing to disagree", but I will continue to pray, study, and challenge my brothers with these points of discussion.

I truly do thank you for your patience in discussing these things with me. It is nice to have you back on the boards

God bless!

-Krylar

------------------

[This message has been edited by Krylar (edited January 29, 2002).]

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
hey kyler, how do you do that funky bible WHITE box quote thingy?

on tounges..
I cannot believe that tounges is the sign that determines who is a christian or not.. I believe that tounges is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, one which i use often, but from all teh scriptures we have covered its unsubstatiated that it is The manifestation, and The sign of salvation..

meanman, many of your points are based on interpreting a selection of scriptures , and reading into them something that could or could not be there, but not plainly stated..
the number one rule of intepreting the bible.. is to take what is clearly stated first, and read into in prayerfully, however never accept an interpretation that goes against the clear and plainly spoken truths..

I believe that tounges is relevant for today as it was then.. that there are tounges of man, and of angels... that sometimes God has you speak in a tounge that is known to another (i've seen cases when people have preached the gospel, just because God prompted them to pray in tounges out loud, and the person on the plain came to Christ from it..) most of the time in my personal experience tounges has been edifying to my own personal spirit. Sometimes i have heard people who don't know any foreign languages speaking in tounges and i could understand it in japanese or chinese, though there we no japanese or chinese people in the meeting..

I have also encountered demonic tounges, amoungst satanists , when i was counselling somebody who came out of a coven... its possible however that you could receive 'bad' tounges even outside that situation, if you idolised tounges and placed it higher than God..

I do not beleive that tounges is the seal of God.
but i do believe the Holy Spirit is the seal of God..
and i believe, and have dicerned, christians who don't speak in tounges, but yet and filled and guided in their lives and ministry by the Holy Spirit... they have the Holy Spirit and i believe are christians (though of course only God knows the heart.)..
I will not write off their christianity, or more the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives , because i can't see evidence of tounges..
actually to do so may indeed greive the Holy Spirit, to deny the Holy Spirit and His work, because it doesn't fit in our manmade understanding..
Its very dangerous grounds..
most churches or individuals that i've seen who hold on to this view have slowly strayed into a 'pentecostal' legalism and have gone down the road to becoming a cult...
also its a dangerous thing, because you could damage the faith of a young christian by placing doubt and other such things in it..

also also everybody in this discussion have mentioned the context of the scrpture.. but the words of the scriptures are obvious "to one he gives, and to another ... " and " do all speak in tounges? NO, do all yada yada?"
also there is the context of the issues that the corintian church was dealing with and having studied the culture there and the areas of their heresy, i would have to agree with rowan, that those scrptures were to bring balance to a church that placed too much importance of tounges...

Love Karl

------------------
Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Krylar

Administrator

Posts: 502
From: MD, USA
Registered: 03-05-2001
Heya...to do the white boxes:

[ c o d e ]
blah blah blah
[ / c o d e ]

no spaces, clearly


blah blah blah

cool, eh? Note though to press RETURN at the end of each line or the window is going to get REALLY wide because this is a "don't use HTML formatting" command. If you hit RETURN at the end of each line...it'll look swell.

-Krylar
------------------

[This message has been edited by Krylar (edited January 30, 2002).]