Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
quote: you think we aren't brothers in Christ.. search for Brother in a bible in the NT , there will be countless.
quote: I am sorry, i assumed you were coming that tounges was a prerequisite of being a 'real christian'. i misunderstood you. please forgive me.
quote: no but the scripture doesn't say thats the only way to be edified, just like eating a banana isn't the only thing a man can eat. I have not the time to go into a study of the greek word **************
quote: do you mean it sounds like a load of hogwash? (it is a stretched analogy) or you mean its right on and i need to read what i wrote and believe it? I do... like paul says "i speak in tounges more than all of you" i am a tounges speaking penticostal, am in to prophecy in a big way, laying on of hands , etc , i've hung out with people who have raised people from the dead, seen amazing miracles of healing (even physical stuff on the outside etc).. I believe, my only point is that tounges isn't the beginning or end of christian spirituality.. I know people who have prophecied much,
quote: I didn't mean to bestoy sainthood.. i'm not saying the popes list of best saints... paul called other christians saints.. and yes only God knows the heart of man... let me say even men, who by their consistant and good fruit (in works, in love, in displaying of spiritual gifts), such men that the majority of christiandom (spanning the denomination or not) has noted to be men who walked with God, and submited their lives to God and were used greatly by God. Of this group, many did not speak in tounges..
quote: sorry about that, another misunderstanding on my part... so many words and messages to cruise through... and web BBS's
quote: no i don't i contend, the Spirit can use either way, or both.. not exclusive in any way. His ways are higher than mine as a man and in my lifetime i won't come close to putting Him in my box of human understanding and capibility of my finiteness.
quote: sorry for my assumption of one scripture.. i just just talking about what was on the table at the moment. my wrong.. oh my understanding of 1 cor 12:3 quote: Ok the first thing and most broadest understanding is that that no man can say that Jesus is Lord without the help of the holy spirit. The positive thing says 'by the Holy spirit', the negative thing says 'speaking by the spirit of God'... if you interpret speaking by however that doesn't say that saying that Jesus is the Lord is only capible of by tounges, it just says by the Holy Spirit.. another wording i've heard before is that no one can really say that "Jesus is Lord" (other than just words, like the scripture that thats my interpretation , now for some of biblical scholars, whom are much more versed in the bible than I.. http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=1co&chapter=12&verse=3 to get the historical and quote quote: from the geneva study bible quote: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/jfb.cgi?book=1co&chapter=12#1Co12_3 speaking . . . say--"Speak" implies the act of utterance; "say" refers to that which is uttered. Here, "say" means a spiritual and believing confession of Him. from matthew henry consise commentary the following : quote: from peoples n.t quote: some intepretatons from ages past to recent.. and back to my toughts, i do not believe that this scirputre that says 'speaking by the spirit of God' means in tounges, though i am a tounges speaking Christian and would not wish to not have that gift, as the edificcation i recieved due to it in immense and i am thankful.. however i don't believe that you can read into this scripture to say that all christians speak tounges especially in the context of this scripture... then follow down to verse 7 - 10
quote: which says that to ONe person is given a certian gift, and to another yet a different gift... and the body made of christians execersings their different gifts and ministries work togeather for the purpose of Christ.. so not all christians may speak in tounges... and God doesn't require it.. its something that is good... very good.. and i believe that if you ask God for this gift , he'll ussually give it to you... but not all christians speak in tounges.. May everyone be blessed with odedience to God in your life.. (me included) ------------------ |
Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
I do not wish to get deep into this disctuion. Least ways not right now im to tired for it. I just wanted to say that in the Bible Paul also said that all the gifts are nothing without Love. The Holy Spirit also gives many gifts. The one I am most after is "Peace". I do not speak in toungs becase I am not lead to. I am however lead by the Spirit when I studie and when I speak to many people. Scriptures that I have well forgoten just pop right out of me. Still the point of this posting is simply to state that if Love is not in what you are doing then what is the point? 1 Corinthians chapter 13 is what love is. I often ask myself if I am acting in Love or if I am just bosting my own openions to justifie my own point of view. Tungues and Prophecy and anything else is meaningliss if you have not Love. Take this as you will but I am only asking that if you are going to do something do it out of Love. Anyways im getting to tired to go on. God made us that we need sleep and im going to go get me some ^_^ Hope you guys come out to a good conclution without getting carpotonal sindrom in your hands from typing to much at one time  ------------------ |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
exactly  ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: you think we aren't brothers in Christ.. search for Brother in a bible in the NT , there will be countless. Yes, I have countless brothers, the defining thing being not the church they belong to, but the fact that they have obeyed God and therefore can speak in tongues. Those who have the gift and claim it is a bolt on extra like mag wheels on a car are the wayward sons of the family, but they are still brothers.
I am sorry, i assumed you were coming that tounges was a prerequisite of being a 'real christian'. i misunderstood you. Well, all Christians speak in tongues, I did say that. What I didn't say was that the gift of tongues was the focus of salvation. Christ's death and resurrection is.
no but the scripture doesn't say thats the only way to be edified, just like eating a banana isn't the only thing a man can eat. 1 Cor 14 says tongues is how we pray in the Spirit, and Jude says this builds us in the faith and keeps us in Gods love. Accepting it's only one way to build oneself up, if it's not important why did God create it, and if it is worthwhile, why do you think God gives with partiality ?
like paul says "i speak in tounges more than all of you" Great - now you need to preach the Gospel as well as having recieved it. As for my comment regarding what you said, you basically said tongues rule, a Christain without tongues is one dimensional, then you said in the same breath that it's not such a big deal. Actually, Paul said 'I thank my God I speak with tonuges more than you all'. As you know how much you SIT is entirely up to you, and Paul couldn't have known how much those in Corinth used the gift. He isn't saying he SIT more than them, he's saying he is more thankful to God for the gift than them all.
I didn't mean to bestoy sainthood.. i'm not saying the popes list of best saints... paul called other christians saints.. I know, I clarified that as well. My point was that you are bestowing salvation on people who do not have the sign Jesus identified with salvation.
let me say even men, who by their consistant and good fruit (in works, in love, in displaying of spiritual gifts), such men that the majority of christiandom (spanning the denomination or not) has noted to be men who There you go again - Christians because you say so, or God says so. If I say they are not, and you say they are, does that matter to their standing with God ? What matters is not what you or I say, but what He has said. By the way, you tied salvation to works above. Love, i.e. being a nice person to others, is also works. quote: sorry about that, another misunderstanding on my part... so many words and messages to cruise through... and web BBS's That's OK, agreed this is a hard way to try and talk about things.
Ok the first thing and most broadest understanding is that that no man can say that Jesus is Lord without the help of the holy spirit. By this claim if the Devil says the words 'Jesus is Lord' he will be saved. If I pay someone here $50 to say the words 'Jesus is Lord', they will be saved. I guarentee you that we both have the ability to control our mouths to the point of saying 'I curse Jesus'. I would not say it, but I also would not expect that saying it would immediately bankrupt my salvation. quote: The positive thing says 'by the Holy spirit', the negative thing says 'speaking by the spirit of God'... if you interpret speaking by Haven't you had the JW's ask you how you know you don't curse Jesus in tongues if you can't understand what you say ? I don't mean that one only speaks 'by the Spirit' in tongues, but that is obviously the context of the three chapters coming, so my interperation is both in context, and means something real that needs to be pointed out. quote: however that doesn't say that saying that Jesus is the Lord is only capible of by tounges, it just says by the Holy Spirit.. I agree totally, but that is not the context of these verses. quote: another wording i've heard before is that no one can really say that "Jesus is Lord" (other than just words, like the scripture that But if the end result is the same ( the words are spoken ), how do we tell the difference ? Refer again to Acts 8 - baptised believers who do not have the Holy Spirit. How did they know ? quote: which says that to ONe person is given a certian gift, and to another yet a different gift... and the body made of christians I've already pointed out that above the verse you quoted it says there are many gifts but on manifestation that is given to all. In Acts 8 they had faith and healing, so how could they not have the Spirit if your reading of 1 Cor 12 means they had the manifestation of the Spirit ? Angel: quote: just wanted to say that in the Bible Paul also said that all the gifts are nothing without Love. Absolutely, but that does not mean the gifts are worthless, only that they need to be used with the right attitude. Interestingly Paul doesn't make any provision for people not having the gifts, only that they may not use them properly. quote: I do not speak in toungs becase I am not lead to. That's because you're not being lead. The Bible offers you this gift, and all the others. Do you also claim not to be lead to pray to be healed ? Do you claim not to be lead to have faith ? If you want to throw out one of the gifts, you need to be prepared to throw them all out. Ultimately if you believe tongues is the sign of the Spirit or not, the fact that you CAN speak in tongues should be enough to make you want to, if you really love God. The same is true of any gift He offers. |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
quote:so anybody who doesn't speak in tounges isn't a true christian nor a brother in your understanding? but i am (just) because even though i speak in tounges, i don't go so far as to say that if that all born again believers filled
quote: amen to Jesus's death and resurrection not being the focus of salvation.. so you are saying in your udnerstanding.. that all Christians speak in tounges , then if you don't speak in Tounges you aren't a christian?
quote: I belive we can Pray in the Spirit, and means in tounges... but tounges isn't the only way we interact with God or the only way the Holy Spirit interacts with us..
quote: SIT? huh? how could have he not known.. many of pauls letters were to teach young believers who hadn't solid truth backing them up and were going down various paths of heresy, he was correcting and admonishing them in love, and he understood the situations often.. from noticing the situation and also from the impression on teh Holy Spirit giving words of knowledge etc to Him, the same Holy Spirit that lived in him and gave him the ability to speak in Tounges.. if you study the historical and cultural context of this scripture, and read broadly from those who are well versed in the bible and those original languages etc you can find that out.. I don't say tounges is not a big deal, i wouldn't want to be without it.. However its just one manifestation of the Holy Spirit...
quote: so were the apostles saved before or at pentecost? ...
quote: only God knows there hearts.. but they have moved testified to being filled with the Holy Spirit, in many cases the Holy Spirit through prophesy and other such supernatural means.. so yes God said they were Christian and not me.. however the bible says that you will know a tree by its fruit.. and these men produced good fruit.. and i'm not tying it to works. savlation is by grace, we recieved that grace, and we fufill our purpose on earth, doing the good works, through the enabling of the Holy Spirit and not by the strength of our human flesh and not by our own rightouesness.. We do these works not to earn our way into heaven, but because We knows christs love and grace for us, and we know His calling of us to do these things for Him.. We are working out His plan in our lives, and he works through us... my showing Love (doing a work) to others can't save me. actually if i am not already saved, i can't truely Love... my human love is pretty pathetic.. its only God's love overflowing and moving through me to others that can truely love others and Christ does and commands us to..
quote: thats the opposite of what i am saying... i am saying that people can say bare words "jesus is lord" but to actually proclaim them, it can only come from the Holy Spirit in us.. and the devil doesn't have the holy spirit..
quote: i believe it is the context of those verses. that whole chapter is about the various ways the Holy Spirit manifests itself in a believer.. and the foundation is our salvation and our proclaimation of our salvation is not possible without being filled with the Holy Spirit but that has nothing to do with tounges.
quote: i am a lingust of many years in various languages (can't tell my my english spelling on here , hehe), and i can tell you that when it is talking to another its meaning different gifts to different people. its not exclusively saying that that only one gift per person.. but its not saying that every person has every gift either.
quote: i didn't say that i do not speak in tounges because i am not lead to.. God Bless Karl ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: so anybody who doesn't speak in tounges isn't a true christian nor a brother in your understanding?
I'd prefer not to talk in specifics though, it only makes people defensive. quote: SIT? huh? how could have he not known.. Speaking In Tongues. How could he have known how often they used a gift that was entirely in their control when he was not there ?
I belive we can Pray in the Spirit, and means in tounges... but tounges isn't the only way we interact with God or the only way the Holy Spirit interacts with us.. That is correct. So if prayer in the Spirit means tongues, and we're told to pray in the Spirit, what's that mean for those who can not ?
but there is no clear scripture that says "all christians (aka those who are saved) speak in tounges", that is a cultist heresy.. That's because you're looking for an order instead of an offer. There's plenty of scripture that is clear, and plenty more that makes no sense if this is not the case.
so were the apostles saved before or at pentecost? ... Was salvation possible before the Holy Spirit was poured out ? quote: i didn't say that i do not speak in tounges because i am not lead to.. No, the guy who replied beneath you did - so I put his name and then replied to him as well. You'll notice I'm only skimming your posts now. I'm waiting for you to explain Acts 8 to me in light of your theories. The rest is just going in circles now. |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
quote: that is a point you have.. i will take it up with God and read and pray, and bare my heart before God, ask him to search my for all iniquity and lead me in all truth.. i believe praying in the Spirit surpasses just tounges... there are very much intricacies in the langauges dealing in IN, by, OF, by the power of etc.. but however pray in the Spirit, and speaking by the inspiration of the Spirit aren't one in one..
quote: i'm not looking for either an order or an offer, just clear scriptures..
quote: Jesus said in the cross "it is finished, it is accomplished"... i believe peter was saved.. When he went out and wept after denying jesus, and poured out his heart to God and prayed to God, i don't think he was not saved yet. because the Holy Spirit had been poured out... Sure he wasn't filled to the brim with the Holy Spirit and thus no enabled to do the work God had for him, but he was indeed saved... Anybody can read whatever they want out of the scriptures (me and you).. I belivevce that from those overall scriptures and their context and dicernment of the Holy Spirit that not all christians have tounges anyhow we are both convinced in our own minds to our stances whether that is out of self rightouesness, human pride, or Godly convictions, so How even if you aren't willing, I am willing to sacrifice my human understanding of it and God to my daddy, my father and ask him to lead me in greater understand. as far as act 8 goes i will study it in my bible while at parachute music festival and pray over it and get back to you next week,even though you don't give me
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
woops i got the quotes messed up in the top section. i am sureyou can get around it.. sorry karl ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: as far as act 8 goes i will study it in my bible while at parachute music festival and pray over it and get back to you next week,even though you don't give me the courtesy of reading the whole words i write to you but just skim them. That's a bit harsh. The fact is I am at work, answering you while my code compiles, and I feel we've focused on the subset of my comments you feel you have an answer for. As we're only rehashing those comments over and over I feel I am not being unkind in not reanswering the same things when the other comments I have made have gone unanswered. |
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Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
ok sorry for being harsh i just thought if you had the time to answer my things you could at least read it, or wait until your priorities are taken care of would you forgive me.. Karl ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: would you forgive me.. But of course, 70 times 7... ;0) |
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Angel Member Posts: 699 From: The Blissful State Of Me? Registered: 05-21-2001 |
 HAHA I stick my tounge at you! I do have faith hope and love thank you very much. I also do not have to speak in tounges to show that I love God so booo hoo for your theory cuz I dont care hahaha! I love God and he loves me and I hope and have faith that my love for him will get stronger. Besides what me and Him do together is non of your bizz. He understands me eather way I speak and I think He is alot happyer that I spend alot of time speaking to him insted of speaking in tounges only when I go to church to show to every one how holy I am. So that is how I look at it.Love you too ------------------ |
rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
God Bless you Angel ! That's the spirit ! (...not the Holy Spirit - just a figure of speech :P) ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: HAHA I stick my tounge at you! Yes, but do you say Ni ??? quote: I do have faith hope and love thank you very much. You have your emotions, and belief in your religion. So do Hindus and Muslims. How do you propse that your Christianity is different from these religions, or Apex for that matter ? quote: I also do not have to speak in tounges to show that I love God so booo hoo for your theory cuz I dont care hahaha! I thought you said I had not hit a nerve ? Instead of feeling threatened, why don't you do what the Bible says ? I note this post is full of bluster and short on answers to my comments from scripture. My desire is not to make you fdeel insecure, it's for you to be saved. quote: I love God and he loves me and I hope and have faith that my love for him will get stronger. Besides what me and Him do together is non of your bizz. He does love you, but if you loved HIm, you'd do what He said. That's what Jesus said, anyhow. quote: He understands me eather way I speak and I think He is alot happyer that I spend alot of time speaking to him insted of speaking in tounges only when I go to church to show to every one how holy I am. So that is how I look at it. Well, the problem is not Him understanding you, but you knowing what to pray for. That's what Romans 8 says, anyhow. You're right, 1 Cor 12-14 was written about people thinking they were holy and had to make a show of using the gifts in public. The point of 1 Cor 12-14 is indeed not to act this way, but in love for one another. Part of showing this love is to use the gifts in order, not looking to exalt yourself, and to understand that it's not any glory to you anyhow, because it's the work of God, and because every Christian is equally able to use the gifts. Another part of showing God you love Him is to preach the Gospel, regardless of how personally people take it..... |
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rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
Luke 23 39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" This man was saved and yet did not speak in tongues. ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
rowan you cannot use this verse to prove the rest of the Bible wrong. IF this man was saved it was by special dispensation direct from the mouth of Christ, before salvation was possible, as Christ had not yet died, let alone risen from the dead or sent the Holy Spirit. If Jesus appears to you in person and gives you a free ticket to avoid the necessity of accepting the wonderful gifts He has for you, then the NT does not apply to you either. :-) |
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rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
It doesn't prove the rest of the Bible wrong - it only proves your interpretation of the bible wrong - and because I believe the bible is absolute and does not contradict itself - I am forced to conclude that you are wrong. ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
OK, rowan, you are entitled to your own conclusions and to build them from one Bible verse. If you find more comfort in proving your salvation to yourself than evaluating what I have said from the Bible, I don't find that so hard to understand. If you're willing to actually discuss it, I'd like to know on what basis you think Jesus words here can negate the fact that the Apostles, who had walked and talked with Jesus and done miracles, could refer to the events of Acts 2 as 'the beginning' ? ( Refer Acts 11 ) Or why Jesus had to die and rise again if salvation was freely available prior to that ? Or where it was that Jesus went that day ? |
Briant Member Posts: 742 From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada Registered: 01-20-2001 |
I guess people that cannot speak for whatever reason (mute, deformity, tongue cut out, MS, etc.) cannot be saved, eh?  Steven Hawking, the famous physicist, talks by means of a computer due to MS. If he believed in Christ, would his computer start speaking in other languages? LOL. Sorry to poke a little fun, but I personally find this doctrine both ridiculous, unbiblical (yes unbiblical!) and dangerous. I suspect I'll catch some flak from Mr. Mean for saying that, but I'm not interested in getting deeply involved in this debate - I've found that these tongues=salvation folk are more stubborn than JWs, and certainly more elitist. See ya in heaven, MeanMan, even though I don't speak in tongues! I say: Brian ------------------ |
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rowanseymour Member Posts: 284 From: Belfast, Northern Ireland Registered: 02-10-2001 |
I could give you so many verses that proclaim salvation is found through belief in God and obeying his laws. You can only give me... Acts 11 Couldn't this be the beginning of the Church ? Doesn't it seem strange to you that Jesus only mentions tongues once ? If it is essential to salvation you would think he might have wanted to be clear about it. Hear what Jesus does say! Matthew 12 Mathhew 21 Matthew 7 John 14 ------------------ [This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited January 24, 2002).] |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
quote: The basic premise of any hypothetical like this is that God does not have power to deal with the situation being discussed. We have formerly mute people in our church. My neighbours are deaf and dumb, and I will still preach to them. God has ordained the sign of the Spirit, the details are up to Him and He is well able.
quote: You're entitled to your opinion, and ultimately our opinions are irrelevant, only God's opinion matters. If you're not willing to discuss why you think this doctrine is unBiblical, you cannot expect your comments to have any credibility, but it seems you've had bad experiences in the past ? I'm pleased there are people in the US preaching the Gospel, but I am sorry if, from the sounds of it, they go about it the wrong way. It is however my experience that telling people who believe in Jesus they can be saved is hard, because they find the 'you're not quite there yet' bit elitest and confronting, as if my trying to tell them the Gospel is being done for my own glory or as if I rejoice in the fact that many call Him Lord and yet will not enter in.
quote: I've spoken at length on 1 Cor 12-14 already, you should read some of the other threads. 1 Cor 12 states that there are many gifts but a common manifestation of the Spirit given to all. 12-14 is written to people all speaking in tongues at once in meetings, which is wrong. 1 Cor 12 points out there are many gifts and for the body to function when it comes together different people must do different things, 13 points out that the gifts are a tool for this age, and love is eternal, the gifts are subservient to love. 14 points out the nuts and bolts, we can all speak in tongues, interpret and prophect, but there is an order in which God would have us use these gifts in the church. The verse you pointed out is stating that when someone speaks 'by the Spirit' ( which in context with 1 Cor 14 is speaking in tongues ), they cannot curse Jesus, and that unless one can praise Him in this way, they cannot call Him Lord. I hope you're not suggesting that it's saying anyone who says the words 'Jesus is Lord' is saved ? To say that anyone who curses Jesus in an understood language is not speaking by the Spirit is obvious, has nothing to do with the context of the verses around it, and is just plain pointless. 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is fathered by God, and everyone who loves the father loves the child fathered by him. Absolutely - and the Bible also says what to believe about Jesus, which includes His death, resurrection, and ascention to the Father, to send the Holy Spirit. It also includes the promise that believers will speak in tongues. It CERTAINLY means someone who does what Jesus told him to. This verse is written to the saved, it is not a precise description of who Jesus is, what to believe about Him, or how to show that we believe ( faith without works is dead, we show our faith by acting on it ). |
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Briant Member Posts: 742 From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada Registered: 01-20-2001 |
quote: I did not post for credibility.
quote: Well, they're preaching something but I wouldn't call it the Gospel. Some fringe groups preach you need to speak in tongues. Others preach that you absolutely must not. Others preach you must be water baptised to be saved, others preach you must read only a 1611 KJV to be saved, others preach you must handle snakes to be saved, others preach you must learn Hebrew to be saved, others preach you can only sing psalms to be saved, others preach you can only say the name "Jesus" when baptizing to be saved, others preach that "Jesus" is invalid and you must only use "Yeshua" to be saved, others preach that you don't have to preach at all because the predestined have no choice but to be saved regardless. All are wasting everyone's time. I just wish these fringe groups would wake up and simply preach Christ cruicified and stop focusing on their pet doctrines and running around in circles hitting each other and everyone else with their Bibles. If you tongues=salvation people would simple preach Christ to people, instead of arguing with people about tongues, you might actually do some good.
quote: Good example of my previous comment about your confusion about the Gospel and your interpretation of the Gospel.
quote: Yes, a great many people have said a great many things. And the more fringe a doctrine, the more explanation it needs. I'm done, I'm already feeling grimy from getting even this far into this useless discussion. No hard feelings, but I've been down this road many times before and I know where it leads. ------------------ |
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MeanManInOz Member Posts: 388 From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Registered: 06-26-2001 |
Bryant, you're free to do as you wish, but if you don't want to discuss it, why start ? How does one preach Jesus if one ignores the Bible ? The arguing only starts when preaching to the semi-converted. The Bible both requires baptism and offers tongues as the sign of the Spirit. The scriptures verify this, and my own experience proves it to me. That's in decending order of importance. |
