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Long live the fight

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

BitBlt is such a ubiquitous function that it is documented pretty much everywhere. If it took you a year to figure it out, God is obviously a pretty slow teacher.

My father talks like this - he once told me that God had told him I was the perfect person to run the music for meetings he was running with some of his Bible college mates on Sunday nights. I had to tell him God obviously forgot that I had a meeting of my own to go to at that time.

People saying God reveals earthly things like this to them are simply insecure and looking for the divine stamp on their ideas. My mother will not consider Christianity largely because every idea my dad has he claims came from God, and most of them don't work out all that well. Currently God is 'telling' him to go to Holland to preach. Apparently there are no sinners left in Australia and it's just co-incidence that he'd really like to go there for a holiday.

I personally beleive that God can give you ideas and help with things that you are struggling with. But i don't believe God would teach you programming, he wants you to put 100% into it and he will make up the difference.

Just my 2 cents.

--D-SIPL

If what he said went against scripture then go on ahead..
It is possible that lots of things we think God said are just ourselves,
but hey thats not always the case..

also God gave us our creativity and all too, so thats indirect inspiration to a point

but consider this.. at my work.. i've had times of sifting through thousands of lines of code for days searching for a bug... then i stepped back had a quite time with God, looked at the scriptures abotu god blessing the works of our hands and helping us in everything we do.. and said to Him "Dad, i've tried so hard and just can't find this bug... and sure enough he lead me to it straight away... some can be considered conincidences but others cannot be..

the following could just be my subconsious but many times i have had a dream in which i was coding... and i coded a really cool looking demo effect.... i could remember what the code looked on the screen.. and when i woke up i could still remember it , and i typed it in and it worked fine.. I don't claim that was God but it was cool...

Also i've seen numerous christian bussinessmen and such who have called upon God's help, knowing their finiteness.. I know an american shipbuilder in ww2, he was making those cargo ships that got sunk very very quickly... the current process of making them took like a year per one.... he went away and prayed and God showed him a way he could build them in 3 days...
Do not mock somebodies experience, if it bothers you and you feel it is not of God, you can take it away, and pray for that believer and ask God to enable you to correct him in love.. but in saying that his experience is not God, you could in fact be saying the work of the holy spirit is null for this guy, and what if our friends faith is weak, we wouldn't want to discourage a weak believers faith.

I believe GOd can tell you things about even the smallest of things..
one example in my own story
I had my bicycle stolen, i prayed... God told me to go to a certian place, on a certian day and my bike would come rolling along.. so i did.. and sure enough some guy rolled up on my bike.. i grabed my bike and pushed him off it and said something like 'hey thats my bike'... but my heart broke afterwards because i looked into that kids eyes and saw the rejection in his life.. God had told me that for the purpose of showing God's love and sharing the gospel with this kid, but i selfishly proclaimed my 'rights'.... i will never forget the look in that kids face, nor the wisedom God taught me that day..
That day i learned to grieve over the souls that are perishing..
'
Mean man, i am not coming down hard on you.. it may look that way
but you are a child of God, and all is cool, we have cool destinies
and Christ loves us and we can do funky stuff through Him..
I think you'll get my points..

In brotherly love from one stranger to another

Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

I believe that God promises to bless what you turn your hand to, but not that people are divinely inspired to program, or grow tomatos, or whatever.

but consider this.. at my work.. i've had times of sifting through thousands of lines of code for days searching for a bug... then i stepped back had a quite time with God, looked at the scriptures abotu god blessing the works of our hands and helping us in everything we do.. and said to Him "Dad, i've tried so hard and just can't find this bug... and sure enough he lead me to it straight away... some can be considered conincidences but others cannot be..

I don't deny that God answers prayer AT ALL. I get the same effect by going for a walk, in that taking a step back allows me to see the big picture, but I would NEVER deny that what you're suggesting is probably God working. That is totally different from saying you sat back and God taught you to program in the first place.

the following could just be my subconsious but many times i have had a dream in which i was coding... and i coded a really cool looking demo effect.... i could remember what the code looked on the screen.. and when i woke up i could still remember it , and i typed it in and it worked fine.. I don't claim that was God but it was cool...

Yeah, if I'm working on code at home ( and I usually am ), if I got to bed with an unsolved problem I'll usually wake up with the solution.

Do not mock somebodies experience, if it bothers you and you feel it is not of God, you can take it away, and pray for that believer and ask God to enable you to correct him in love.. but in saying that his experience is not God, you could in fact be saying the work of the holy spirit is null for this guy, and what if our friends faith is weak, we wouldn't want to discourage a weak believers faith.

I have years of experience in seeing someone make these claims on a daily basis, where every move he makes and every idea he has is from God, and most of them fail. This is the main reason my mother will not be saved, because she doesn't want to me like my dad. I can't blame her.

Nowadays God does more low-profile stuff (less obvious, but the same impact), and doesnt show himself directly. (Remember when God was walking through the Garden of Eden and found Adam and Eve? or when he sent Jesus?)

God will influence you, and He may or may not directly affect you, but he will most defenitely try to help you, unless you flat-out refuse. thats my opinion on it.

(btw, I think some of the stuff I said is wrong, but I dont really want to re-read it and review it from scripture...)

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"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to
his own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all"
-Isaiah 53:6
I like spaghetti, too, just to let you know.

Jesus said 'you will do the things I do, and greater, for I go to my Father'.

Meanaussiedude:

>"I believe that God promises to bless what you turn your hand to, but not >that people are divinely inspired to program, or grow tomatos, or >whatever. "

I don't believe that everything you do is God inspired.. BUt i believe that God does have a specific plan for you life in the long run and every day... part of that plan could be said to be mundane (yet actually the greatest part) which would just be spending time getting to know your God better.. BUt everyday we have new mercies from God, we have a plan and purpose, part for the long run plan part for the day, God has often put certain people in my lives on a certian day for a purpose (theirs or mine).
I believe God can even inspire peole to program or grow tomatoes..
You wouldn't mock somebody who had a God given ispiration to set up an orphanage or plant a church? (sure that can come from human desires as well, but also from God)..
maybe you'd be sceptical (i am often way to sceptical of people and their claims of God, you see some bad things and generalise that all is such and get to be a big sceptical)

but what if mr X had prophecies from different people all over the world who didn't know anything about him to grow tomatoes?
i know of a great man of faith who came to christ while listening to a man preach to an empty church because God had impressed on teh guy to do that.

Also GOd has called people to do things, but people have messed up with God's timing, not waited on God, and did it in their own flesh and it failed... Does that mean it wasn't from God - no.. it means that they didn't let God build the house and it failed in their own strength.

Today i had another programming thing.. i've had a bug that i haven't even got close to finding in more than a week.. i was so frustrated and i prayed and within 20 seconds i found it.. could just be a cooincidence.. but i doubt it..

I get where you are coming from with your father..
i've known a man who severly controlled his wife by being superspiritual and hearing God's will on everything (so to speak) including when she should go to the toilet... (messed up)..

Also i've had a stepfatehr who refused to submit his life to christ, but due to a powerful charisma and love of power has in the past being powerful in many churches (in the end to be found out)... and one minute he is saying this is God's will , and the next minute is is lying to people and manipulating situations..
In the current situation, i have to tell him that "maybe this move you are making is the will of God" but the way you are dealing with it, and with people in it, is very sinful, and you are cursing yourself almost in effect and not moving into the blessing God has for you.. for though it may be God's will for you to move to this new area, its more God's will for you to repend, and turn to Him with all your heart.

Its easy to see an abuse of man taking a thing of God and using it for his own gain, or twisting it..

In some churches and christian lives tounges , the awesome and Godly gift of tounges has come to mean "who is more spiritual", and even if some a neccesity to salvation (swhich is heresy), and many have sought it moer than God, and thus made a good thing of God an Idol..

i can see this imbalance but i will not wash out God's gift with the proverbial bathwater...

the same with grace and works..

we are saved by grace amen.. we do works , not out of earning our way to heaven, but Because we love Christ because he first loved us, and we do through the enabling of the holy spirit and not through the strength of our human flesh..

Many people, churches and doctrines have tended towards legalism , to the extreme in many cases which isn't good... however doing good works for christ is a good thing..

on the other hand.. others have watered down the gospel, and take grace to be an excuse to just lay back and be apathetic about doing good. even an excuse to sin, while the bible says we are accountible for the way we live.. some of these people even justify such attitudes because they don't want to be like those (name a denomination) legalists, and thus judging others in doing so..

I don't know your dad , or your situation.. i don't have dicernment from Christ on this matter
However it could be God's will for him to go to holland to preach.. or it could just be his human desire.. (if i want to i could read a bad motive into everybodies every action)..
BUt i know you probably do, and can continue to pray for your father
that the fullness of Christ and His plan would be outworked in your fathers life...

It is a danger to spiritual everything and say this and that must be God speaking, i know..

BUt i pray my friend, that you don't go too far the other way, writing of certian ways God may want to interact with you, because of your feelings towards you father..

love
Karl
and by the way
may your vacation be refreshing and enjoying and may you discover more
of Christ.... (Hey God even use him to bring somebody to know you.) For
the harvest is ripe and he is a worker..
(just thought to add that.. when on vacation ,God has used us amazingly.. when on our honeymoon.. we bought some books to take and read, and one of them was exactly what this one gal we met needed... God works in wonderful ways..)

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

I think of really cool stuff, WITHOUT a book and at really bizarre times, like in a falling asleep state.

Give more credit to God, not yourself.

I am a 17 year old teenager punk, I have no business being here, but for some reason I am. When I can here I found an experience programmer to help me.

I think my programming skill are pretty good for simple practicing and observing professional code.

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Victory Infinitum

I didn't comment on anything else because this is the biggest mistake in your post. All Christians speak in tongues by definition, just as all Christians can pray to be healed and have faith. It's not that I seek tongues more than God, it's that others seek salvation apart from the gift He promised them, usually because they're more interested in proving they are saved *now* than looking into the Bible and obeying it.

InsanePoet

>I think of really cool stuff, WITHOUT a book and at really bizarre times, like in a falling asleep state.

Me too. It's called being a programmer.

>Give more credit to God, not yourself.

I give plenty of credit to God, I'm just not a whacko. I credit Him with my salvation, with my basic ability to function in society, with delivering me from alcohol addiction, and lots of other things. But I don't expect that my writing software s of benefit to the Kingdom of God, and I don't expect that I learned to program because God taught me.

I am a 17 year old teenager punk, I have no business being here, but for some reason I am. When I can here I found an experience programmer to help me.

So it wasn't just God then. You see what's happening here - the truth of how you learned ( slowly from what I can tell ) is coming out over your need to spiritualise the mundane.

I think my programming skill are pretty good for simple practicing and observing professional code.

Maybe, I don't know. That doesn't mean God taught you, or cares much about it ( in the sense that it is irrelevant to His plan if you can code or not ).

quote:

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
All Christians speak in tongues by definition, just as all Christians can pray to be healed and have faith.

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We speak in tongues when and where God decides its a good idea. Many Christians have never spoke in tongues because God has given them other gifts (equally as important, such as compassion and understanding) also through the Holy Spirit.

quote:

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
Maybe, I don't know. That doesn't mean God taught you, or cares much about it ( in the sense that it is irrelevant to His plan if you can code or not ).

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GOD CARES!! He is a loving caring father. He doesn't sit miles away up in heaven ignoring our daily srife plotting the destruction of evil. He plays an active part in everything that happens in our lives.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited January 22, 2002).]

God says it's necessary for all Christians, so you're right on point one, but He says it's ALWAYS a good idea. Compassion and understanding are not gifts of the Spirit, non-Christians have them too. The saddest thing about people who get the Bible this far wrong is they don't even talk about the gifts of the Spirit at all, they talk merely about human attributes that exist widely outside the church. The fruits are also non-negotiable, but they grow in the life of the Christian to the degree they were absent. They are the focus of a powerless Gospel, not the Gospel of Christ.

GOD CARES!! He is a loving caring father. He doesn't sit miles away up in heaven ignoring our daily srife plotting the destruction of evil. He plays an active part in everything that happens in our lives.

I tried to clarify my point but knew I'd be misunderstood. God cares insofar as He cares about us, but He doesn't care in the sense of making someone able to program because it can somehow benefit the Gospel. Yes, God can bless us and wants to, but at the core of the matter, to suggest God inspires someone to program, so they don't need to sit down and learn anything, is just fantasy. The gifts of the Spirit have always been focused on His Kingdom, not ours.

1 Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant.
2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.
3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.
8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

1 Corinthians 13

1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

...wow. Amen

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

What do you think this means ? Prayer 'in the Spirit' is defined as tongues in chapter 14. I believe this means you can't say Jesus is your Lord unless you can speak in tongues. I presume you'll tell me it means something obvious, like someone who curses God is not speaking by the Spirit.

There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

Yes, there are different gifts but THE manifestation of the Spirit is given to all. This is talking in context about use of gifts in the meeting. If you want to use this to say not all Christians speak in tongues, then not all Christians have faith, can pray expecting to be healed, have knowledge of or wisdom concerning the things of God, etc.

1 Cor 13 does not present a dichotomy between love and tongues, it points out tongues will cease when Jesus returns and love it eternal. Tongues remain a necessary tool for this age.

1 Cor 14 says that we can all speak in tongues, all interpret and all prophecy. Other verses make clear we can all pray for healing, for wisdom, for knowledge, and I hope all Christians have faith. Additionally 1 Cor 14 tells us that tongues is how we pray in the Spirit, which Jude tells us keeps us in Gods love.

I could go on, but the issue is never duelling Bible verses, but the degree to which a person is willing to place faith in the promises of God.

Where in 1 Cor 14 does it say we all speak in tongues ?????????

It seem to me that Corinthians 12-14 was written is response to atitiudes just like yours. If you are going to refuse to read the scripture as it is written then I will not be dragged into a foolish argument with you.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

Where in 1 Cor 14 does it say we all speak in tongues ?????????

Not here, obviously.

It seem to me that Corinthians 12-14 was written is response to atitiudes just like yours.

No, it is written precisely to control people overemphasising and abusing the gift of tongues, but the fact that three chapters are devoted to it's proper use in a meeting goes to show how important this gift is, and how careful Paul is to give a balanced account of what the right thing to do is.

If you are going to refuse to read the scripture as it is written then I will not be dragged into a foolish argument with you.

No need to be rude... :-)

In response to your question: the verse you quoted again emphasises the point that Paul is talking throughout of using gifts in a meeting. The following verses are the ones that state we all have these gifts:

14:26 What should you do then, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each one has a song, has a lesson, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all these things be done for the strengthening of the church.

14:31 For you can all prophesy one after another, so all can learn and be encouraged.

Here Paul states that tonuges is a sign to unbelievers only:

14:22 So then, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers

Why is tongues not a sign to believers ? I contend it's because believers speak in tongues.

Here Paul states that this is how we pray in the Spirit.

14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive. 14:15 What should I do?6 I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing praises with my spirit, but I will also sing praises with my mind.

And finally, Paul says this:

14:37 If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, he should acknowledge that what I write to you is the Lord's command. 14:38 If someone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 14:39 So then, brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid anyone from speaking in tongues 14:40 And do everything in a decent and orderly manner.

The summing up again tells them all to seek prophecy ( which you contend only a small portion of them could have from God, seeing as the different gifts you think God gives with partiality go beyond the nine listed in 1 Cor 12 ), and not to forbid tongues. No-one is told to seek tongues, in fact 1 Cor makes clear they all could do it, and were doing so at once.

14:23 So if the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and unbelievers or uninformed people enter, won't they say that you are crazy?

Other verses in 1 Cor 14 show they all had the gift of tongues also.

Like Paul, I do not over emphasise tongues, I find that inside the church I don't discuss the gift much at all, because I'm talking to people about walking in the Spirit. When I find myself talking to people who are as decieved as I once was by popular, powerless, religion I find myself focusing on this one basic promise from God, because it's the one everyone feels they must reject. Small wonder the enemy has focused on the miracle that signals the entry of a person into God's Kingdom in order to whisper 'did God really say...'. Becoming a Christian does not mean just speaking in tongues, however it is the common manifestation, the outward sign of the inward experience.

What do you believe is the proof that someone is a Christian ? Acts 8 records a group of baptised believers who had seen miracles and yet did not have the Holy Spirit. How does this fit your theology, and how do you propose they knew this to be so ?

1 Cor 14 26 (NIV)
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

Notice the OR ?

I should make it very clear that I am not denying the importance of speaking tongues - I have witnessed it - but I don't believe every christian is given the gift of tongues or that it is a necessary sign that someone is a believer.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

Notice the OR ?

I should make it very clear that I am not denying the importance of speaking tongues - I have witnessed it - but I don't believe every christian is given the gift of tongues or that it is a necessary sign that someone is a believer.

The problem with providing a huge body of scripture to back my views is people take one they think they can disprove and ignore the rest. The problem with going one verse at a time is that people claim that only one verse can support my view.

Anyhow, the or is not in the original text. The KJV just puts an extra comma, without the or, others add it based on their assumptions. Paul says above for the person w3ho speaks in tongues to interpret, so it's obvious his intention was not that people who could do one of the things listed in this verse could not do the others.

I'm pleased that you know Christians - you should pray with them. Jesus said to ask and keep on asking until God gives us the Spirit. The point is not that He waits to give, but that sometimes we take time to really ask. I don't see much point if you're looking to argue, the Bible is only powerful when people mix it with faith, otherwise we will be acting as Pharisees, and I see no point in that. God offers you salvation and ties His offer with the ability to pray in a spiritual language, for we 'know not what to pray for'. He says in the Bible that this gift builds us up in the faith and keeps us in Gods love. If you want that or not is entirely up to you.

quote:

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:

I didn't comment on anything else because this is the biggest mistake in your post. All Christians speak in tongues by definition, just as all Christians can pray to be healed and have faith. It's not that I seek tongues more than God, it's that others seek salvation apart from the gift He promised them, usually because they're more interested in proving they are saved *now* than looking into the Bible and obeying it.

---

Here i come in rushing again with some more words.. First of all we are all brothers and I do not wish to argue
or be proven right. If you have time i would appreciate it if you answered some of my other issues in it. as for the above point,
I believe i miscommunicated.. the tounges thing was just an example of misbalance.. and i wasn't accusing you of
making tounges an idol.. i just know it happens.. I don't believe that tounges in neccisary for salvation, but even if it was
its possible to make it an idol.. its easy to put the things of God above God and that is idolotorous.. that is my point completely

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeanManInOz:

I give plenty of credit to God, I'm just not a whacko. I credit Him with my salvation, with my basic ability to function in society, with delivering me from alcohol addiction, and lots of other things. But I don't expect that my writing software s of benefit to the Kingdom of God, and I don't expect that I learned to program because God taught me.

---

I would say that God doesn't interact with everything people do always, but that doesn't mean that he can't teach somebody programming. The times when i know myself that it wasn't just a cooincidence has been when i've prayed and its just to many
factors to say its a coincidence. Also can't it benefit the Kingdom? for example rowan, a group member of mine.. He has said
that he has felt God help him with his programming.. And i've seen his code and its very professional despite his experience.
though that doesn't make it God at all.. However it can benefit the kingdom.. his code eventually is going to be used to spread the
gospel in vivid exciting real time graphics and music on 30 foot screens in front on 4000 - 5000 non christians...
it will be at a competition when technical and artist excellence is being competed for. and God can help us in excellence..

quote:

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:

God says it's necessary for all Christians, so you're right on point one, but He says it's ALWAYS a good idea. Compassion and understanding are not gifts of the Spirit, non-Christians have them too. The saddest thing about people who get the Bible this far wrong is they don't even talk about the gifts of the Spirit at all, they talk merely about human attributes that exist widely outside the church. The fruits are also non-negotiable, but they grow in the life of the Christian to the degree they were absent. They are the focus of a powerless Gospel, not the Gospel of Christ.

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Tounges is not necessary for all christians, Its a gift on top of salvation , as with spiritual gifts, spiritual gifts don't help us get saved.
Christs death on the cross when he cried out "it is accomplished" is sufficent enough for that.
Spiritual gifts, which i love, are given to us as we recieve the Holy Spirit, and they are for a purpose.. to help our purpose on earth.
Most spiritual gifts are for corporate benefit, while tounges (other than in public cases where there is an interpretation, and cool miracles where you are speaking somebodies tounge and preaching to them unaware) is
for individual edification..
I belive God has given different people different spiritual gifts, and people kind of specialise in them so to speak, however because the holy spirit of whom our gifts come , resides in us, He can manifest any gift through us...
I personally love tounges, lets say that its like another dimention in your relationship with God.. because man cannot know himself
or what he needs, tounges is spirit onto Spirit.. oh i love tounges.. being without tounges is like being without dimention.. if you
are deaf you live without the dimention of sound... and being able to hear improves your ability to live..
tounges is like that..
however its not a prerequisite...
many of the greatest saints of Christ lived without tounges, some because of ignorance, and others because God didn't bestow it
upon them..
some people i know, even though having a desire for this Gift, haven't recieved it, while others have only recieved it on occassion (whether in private , or part of a miracle where they are preeching to somebody else in tounges)... while most christians i know use tounges in their daily lives..

quote:

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Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
Oh - MORE compassion. How wishy washy.

Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

What do you think this means ? Prayer 'in the Spirit' is defined as tongues in chapter 14. I believe this means you can't say Jesus is your Lord unless you can speak in tongues. I presume you'll tell me it means something obvious, like someone who curses God is not speaking by the Spirit.

---

The holy spirit can inspire you to speak words irregardless of tounges.... What about all those scriptures that say
"when you are taken to court to give an account for me etc etc, don't worry what to say because the Holy Spirit will help you speak"

i doubt that they would have been speaking in tounges in their court case defense... stephen wasn't anyway.. and studying the
'courtcases' of how many of the apostles were matyred showed they were talking in the language of their accusers..

You can't take that one scripture and build a doctrne that says :to proclaim jesus and be saved one must proclaim it in tounges..

Dear meanman.
God Bless you, and have a awesome holiday..
and may the Light of the God news peice all of our hearts, and move us to greater undestanding, but not just
for undestandings sake, but that God's perfect love would manifest in our lives..

your brother in Christ,

Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Because you and I say so, or because God says so ? I wish it were the case...

Tounges is not necessary for all christians, Its a gift on top of salvation , as with spiritual gifts, spiritual gifts don't help us get saved.
Christs death on the cross when he cried out "it is accomplished" is sufficent enough for that.

This is a straw man. I never said the gifts save us, they are the outward manifestation of the salvation made possible by Christ's death & resurrection.

while tounges (other than in public cases where there is an interpretation, and cool miracles where you are speaking somebodies tounge and preaching to them unaware) is for individual edification..

That's true - are you saying not all Christians need to be edified ?

being without tounges is like being without dimention.. if you
are deaf you live without the dimention of sound... and being able to hear improves your ability to live..
tounges is like that..
however its not a prerequisite...

Goodness me, read that again and try to believe it.

many of the greatest saints of Christ lived without tounges, some because of ignorance, and others because God didn't bestow it upon them..

You may feel the right to bestow sainthood ( yes I know it means being a Christian, no more, no less ), but I prefer to let God do that.

Perfect Love is not wishy washy.. rowans whole message was just a quote from the bible..

He posted three, I was replying to them all and my 'wishy washy' comment was in response to the manifestation of compassion being different to human compassion.

The holy spirit can inspire you to speak words irregardless of tounges.... What about all those scriptures that say
"when you are taken to court to give an account for me etc etc, don't worry what to say because the Holy Spirit will help you speak"

Of course, I never said otherwise. Do you contend the Spirit only does this in the lives of some believers ? The ones who cannot speak in tongues ?

You can't take that one scripture and build a doctrne that says :to proclaim jesus and be saved one must proclaim it in tounges..

How can you say that when I posted a body of scripture, most of it as yet unanswered. Do you mean my comment on 1 Cor 12:2 (ish) ? You tell me what it means then - I asked for alternative interpretations that make sense. I'm yet to hear one, here or anywhere.

As I said before, there no point in arguing, it will not save your soul, or if you're a Christian, it will not bring you to walk orderly. But I'm always happy to discuss the Bible with people wanting to ask faithful questions, or to tell me their views.

b.t.w if you want to quote you can put the quote between

quote:

---

and

---

nto that i did such a good job in my latest post.. i edited in wordpad
and rather than letting it wrap had a 'enter-friendly' finger..
and it looks horrid now its posted.. i live and learn..

Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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Victory Infinitum

I am not some teenager looking for answers. I KNOW the truth of God and the power of His love.

Just remeber that our sole purpose is to gloryfy God and enjoy Him forever.

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Victory Infinitum

When I originally posted I didn't mean to sound to drastic. I beleive the speaking in tongues is simple different languages that God gave the the APOSTLES, and there are no more apostles. I am a very traditional Christian. I go to a Baptists church and agree with the doctrine.

This is fine, if you don't read the Bible. 1 Cor 14 says that tongues are only understood by God. Plenty of people spoke in tongues in Acts besides the Apostles. I tend not to identify myself with a denomination ( note I've never even mentioned what it is ), because I only want to be identified with God.

quote:

MeanmaninOZ, you seem to make God out to be uncaring. God cares for each Christian Individually on a personal bases and all things work out for the benefit of the beleive who obeys Him.

I don't understand how suggesting that religion has sold you short and God offers you more than you've been told makes Him uncaring.

quote:

I program for the glory of God, and when things are done for the glory of God, the Chruch recieves the benefit, always.

Does this mean you're going to write the first commercial standard Christian game ? If it's as good as Halo looks like being, I'll be glad to play it.

quote:

I am not learning programming slowly. I thought I learned quite quickly considering I had no teacher or book.

Maybe you did, but you gave the impression you took a year to learn BitBlt. Either way it is irrelevant. Some people learn quickly.

quote:

I am not some teenager looking for answers. I KNOW the truth of God and the power of His love.

How do you know ? By your experiene of God, or your emotions, which the Bible says are not to be trusted ?

This always happens, I try to discuss the power of God and people get all defensive, more interested in justifying their position now than accepting the power of God. I find it very sad.

The heart does decived. I read my Bible, of course, as well as other books, such as by John Piper etc.

I am not following my emotions, I follow God, I pray often to seek answers.

I trust it the Lord, for He is all soveriegn.

Personnally I don't believe in profecy etc. I am, as I said before, VERY traditional. I'm not Charismatic or other.

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Victory Infinitum

If you like old schooled RPGs then you'll like my game.

Not really, but to each his own. Actually my favourite game is Worms.

:quote

The heart does decived. I read my Bible, of course, as well as other books, such as by John Piper etc.

There's your problem. Burn the other books and believe the Bible.

:quote

Personnally I don't believe in profecy etc. I am, as I said before, VERY traditional. I'm not Charismatic or other.

Try reading what Jesus and Paul said about mens traditions. I don't believe God has retired from any of the good things that identified His people in the NT.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeanManInOz:
1 Cor 14 says that tongues are only understood by God. Plenty of people spoke in tongues in Acts besides the Apostles.
quote:

---

1 Cor 14
13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.

1 Cor 12 v8-10
8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

Interpreting tongues is one the OTHER equally as important spiritual gifts

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

I'M AM NOT SOME MISLEAD TEENAGER. I AM FIRM IN THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. THE HOLY SPIRIT RESIDES WITHIN MY HEART GUIDING IT. I CAME HERE IN FAITH THAT GOD WOULD PROVIDE MY NEEDS, AND HE DID. I MET AN EXPERIENCE PROGRAMMER TO HELP ME.

I AM NOT WACKED ON SOME STRANGE DOCTRINE.

When I said tradional I meant that I do agree with radical denomiations such as the Charismatic movement.

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Victory Infinitum

Interpreting tongues is one the OTHER equally as important spiritual gifts

Absolutely - did you epect me to disagree ? All nine gifts are equally important, but only one is the manifestation of the Spirit.

quote:

There is good truth in books other than the Bible. You would do well to read them. Beleive my John Piper knows A LOT of truth. I'm reading "The Dangerous Duty of Delight", which is a condensed version of Desiring God.

I pity you. The books in your Christian bookshop do not agree with one another, so how do you tell which is right ? You're claiming the Bible is incomplete ? What did people do for knowledge of God before these new books were written ? You're a victim of an industry that exists to make money from you, not to save your soul.

quote:

I MET AN EXPERIENCE PROGRAMMER TO HELP ME.

Don't yell. I remember this bit - he taught you, but you claim God did.

quote:

I AM NOT WACKED ON SOME STRANGE DOCTRINE.

Paul was, the Apostles were, and so am I.

quote"

When I said tradional I meant that I do agree with radical denomiations such as the Charismatic movement.

I presume you mean do not. I don't either, they are generally disorderly. But they and you are on opposite ends of a spectrum with the Gospel in the middle.

stop twisting my words to mean something else.

The Bible is ultimate, but you would do well to listen to you fellow Christians. Read them, God is still at work.

Don't pity me, I am a child of light. I strive to me a man of God.

I am firm in the faith of Jesus the Christ.

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Victory Infinitum

Just trying to point out what you're really saying.

quote:
The Bible is ultimate, but you would do well to listen to you fellow Christians. Read them, God is still at work.

Yes, He is, but His message requires no updates.

quote:
Don't pity me, I am a child of light. I strive to me a man of God.

But not enough to seek the things the Bible offers you ?

quote:
I am firm in the faith of Jesus the Christ.

You may be firm in the faith your church has invented, yet you reject the Gospel as 'wacko'. The Pharisees had similar faith in mens traditions.

This is pretty pointless, let's stop shall we ? My desire is to share light, if you don't want it, it benefits no-one to argue about it.

But I was having difficulty with the Direct3D demosystem I am coding at the mo - I was getting garbage on the screen during the loading sequence even tho I was clearing the frame buffer - I had tried everything - and unable to find the problem had not felt like even looking at it for the past 3 weeks.

Then last night I opened up the project, closed it, asked God to help me and bless what I was doing, opened the project, and thought - hmmm maybe I need to clear the z-buffer as well...

It was fixed and I didn't even do the reboot necessary to verify it - just knew it was fixed.

All good things come from God

PS. For all the smart people out there thinking - that was obvious - it had never dawned on me that I needed to clear the z-buffer for transformed vertices

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

nice work..
And though i believe that you do alot of your work with the God given talents and interlect , God can and does help us in many situations of life, a belive this is a ministry and He can and will help you in this.. but he can also help in the mundane things of life.. I mean if God knows/cares that a sparrow dies, he can care about evening doin the dishes .. and like my human relationships delve from the deep to the mundane, and God wants to be involved in our lives totally..
I'm not suggesting that we 'spiritualize' everything to the point of stupidity or legalism, or try to find God where he obviously isn't.. But yep God is bigger than our box of human understanding..

Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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Victory Infinitum

Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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Victory Infinitum

God Bless

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

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Victory Infinitum

For instance, sickness and evil do not come from God.

I believe bad things come from sin - and from the hearts of men encouraged by satan.

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

However, I can affirm that God is never a source of evil.

†Caleb†

PS: Just to reassure you all so that I don't get a bunch of angry replies, let me make it clear that I do know that God had good reason for inflicting the sicknesses and deaths. Sometimes judgement is necesary.

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

[This message has been edited by imsold4christ (edited January 30, 2002).]

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Victory Infinitum

But I still don't believe God sends all the diseases, infections, syndromes and disabilities that we see in the world today. When God makes someone sick he makes it clear it is him - and normally makes his reasons pretty clear too.

God doesn't always get what he wants - he didn't want us to sin in the garden of eden - he didn't get the gratitude he wanted when he rescused the Israelites from egypt - he isn't going to get every last one of his children into heaven as he would like.

I honestly don't know how someone can reconcile the idea of a loving father and a God who seems to dish out illnesses upon his children as he pleases. Would your own earthly father ever give you an illness if he could ? - and how much greater is your father in heaven's love for you

Our sin is what has brought us sickness and made us slaves to the world in which we live instead of masters of a perfect creation.

... and yet God still loves us and calls us his children

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

Ive thrown myself into God's hands on this. Ive been on pills and its no help. Changing my life stile hasnt helped eather. So the only one who is going to cure me is God.

SO there you have it, my point of view on sicknesses.

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Peaza Cheez Mates!
Azariah "Angel"

Sickness is a curse of the land and a result of a fallen world.

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Victory Infinitum

Sin

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

God is so much bigger..

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

its a difficult statement, that all things come from God..
as rowan said, God did not will the fall of man.. but his love and long suffering allowed him to permit it.. to suffer through the fact that we hurt each other and reject Him, why? because he has boundless love, and he made a plan, the only plan that could redeem us.. a plan that would cost Him dearly.. the maker of the universe, submitted himself into the body of a man.. not into the glorious body of a perfect man in eden before sin had had its way.. but into a world where the effects of sin , weighted heavily.. he suffered the life we all do, living in a sinful world, yet he didn't sin (a question, do you think jesus had a sinful nature in the human side, of course his divine nature overcome and he never sinned, i don't know its just a question ... jesus probably had to fight urges to use his power to make things happen then and now.. probably had to deal with erections and such like as well).. anyhow he came into this human body and died for us...
the reason history continues is because of his long suffering and boundless love.. he wishes that none who would come to him when given an oppertunity would perish..
we think we suffer in this fallen world.. he suffers more..
and he is perfect in that suffering..
we are but sinful humans, who go on in life , with Hope, because we have been given a precious gift of salvation, a plan for our lives, a hope in Christ, and the rightouesness of Christ inpued onto us..

Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

I have a friend with a similar doctrine (re calvinism...) He said (as merely a thought) that for God, infinity is simultanious.

I could give up on some calvinistic doctrine. But I think that every Christian is elected and will always remain a Christian. I beleive that we, as Christian have a responsibility to be good Christians, and our walk isn't predefined by God.

It's like you're on a boat and God is the captian. You can do whatever you want on the boat, but you're going to the place the boat takes you.

Rowan.
As klumsy said. Sickness is a result of sin, but not our direct sin. We're not going to get sick because we did x,y and z.

PS. If this is going to start another giant discussion, don't do it in this topic. I got 25 bb reply notifications in my inbox once, it's annoying.

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Victory Infinitum

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Rowan / GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene