The main points of the conference were...

1. Healing in the Church is as revelant today as it was in the time of the apostles.
2. That God does not issue sickness upon his children for any reason. No loving father would ever give his child a disease.
3. That God wants to heal us of our illnesses.
4. We should pray for healing and keep praying until healing comes.
5. We shouldn't be afraid to offer prayer to every sick person we meet as the worst that can happen is that they end up feeling loved.

I was just wondering what other peoples experiences and opinions of healing were.

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Shown here is a case where God chose not to heal the apostle Paul of something.

2nd Corinthians 12:7-10 (NIV)
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

We discussed this very piece of scripture. "Thorn in the flesh" appears a few times in the Old Testament - and each time it does it is referring not to a physical illness but to an annoying person or persons - its like our expression - "Pain in the neck".

So you don't believe in #2. Hmmmm.
I was brought up Protestant and thus to believe in the old Calvinist ideas of divine determination - that is God controls everything - so if something bad happens its part of God's plan. And that sickness can be God's way of making us stronger. This couldn't be further from the truth. Do you think God the loving father has ever looked down upon one of his children and thought - I love you, but your a bit proud so I'll give you some cancer? Remembering that God's love is so much greater than any mortal father's or mother's.

-Rowan

quote:

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But be ready to accept no for an answer in case it is not God's will for you to be healed.

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I'm going to die of a horrible disease and all of my family arre going to be really distraught, and it's going to cause a lot of pain for a lot of people... and that's Gods will... hello what planet are you on!!

God doesn't want people to be sick, maybe old testament (but i'm sure it wasn't a permanent thing), but certaintly not since Jesus died on the cross. He paid the price for us, just accept it mate.

--D-SIPL

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Rowan, this is a minor point, but I would be interested in seeing those other scripture passages that refer to a thorn in the flesh. I did a search on it in the NIV and came up with no other passages. I also did a search on the NLT and found one possible other one in Joshua 23:12, but it said "thorn in your eyes" not "thorn of the flesh."

Also D-SIPL, I'd like to point out that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Job would certainly disagree with Rowan on #2.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

References for "thorn in your side":
Numbers Ch 33 Vs 55
But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live.
Judges Ch 2 Vs 3
Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be [thorns] in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you

-Rowan

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited October 29, 2001).]

That sure sounds like sickness to me.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

A pastor told our congregation a story of a man he knew who went with his daughter to be a missionary somewhere in the tropics. He wasn't long there when his daughter caught a disease and died. Then missionary was distraught and returned home. He was angry with God and came to the pastor and asked why did God allow his daughter to die. The pastor asked him what he would have done if a thief had broken into his house and poisoned his daughter with the disease while she slept. The missionary replied he would have strangled him and through him down the stairs. The pastor then asked him who he thought the thief was.

Not sure if that's relevant but it sure makes a point .

Sometimes I feel like I know God really well - then I find an Old Testament passage which just throws me.

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited October 29, 2001).]

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

as for the job thing, God permited satan to do that...
Satan asked God if he could and God said go ahead.. but God was still in control , he could stop satan at anytime and wouldn't let him kill job..
God had a greater plan that would show Job's faith stronger and bring glory to God and silent Satan the accuser of the bretheren..

as for point 2, yes God is a loving father, and no loving father would do something to harm is child, but a loving father uses many tools to discipline his children including spanking etc... no father would ask his son to jump off a cliff, but maybe he would if the father knew he was their to catch the son in his arms?, God has asked us his children to lay down our lives for him... much more than accept a sickness...
God the loving father wouldn't allow his children to be raped, murdered hurt etc, he wouldn't have allowed human history to proceed. but he has, one because he is long suffereing.. the suffering of humanity hurts God more than it does us, but he had a plan that would redeem US, and he suffered and extended history so that the people could be saved.. he planned this plan of redemption from before the fall , how longsuffering he IS..
if God can use rape and horrid crimes and turn them for GOd (it seems impossible huh?) he can use sickness too....
its a balance, and the balance is found in prayer... you can't just accept sickness apathetically or you may well indeed be letting the devil rob you, but we shouldn't put God and the way he works in a box. We are told to lay hands and pray for people for healing, and we should do that.. and often and in faith, however you can get unbalanced.. i've met a group of people (read small cult) whose 'faith' in this became so unbalanced that they though that people who got sick and weren't healed had not enough faith, but went on to say that they weren't even saved..

i hope i make some sense

May God Bless us, and Enrich our understanding of him.
I know that God is a Good, Loving, Just and Righteous God
sometimes it seems like his character is inhumane (our standard) as if our standards are higher than his?... I just have to accept that he is a good God , there are things i don't understand
i.e what happens to babies that are aborted, or lets say a 2 year old, or then a 6 year old, or a 12 year old who is killed..
do they all get free passes into heaven so to speak.. i don't know
but i do know that my God is Good and Righteous and i can be confident in trusting that he's got in undercontrol in the best way possible..

Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

I didn't mean to come off as apathetic. I even stated at the beginning that you should pray when you get sick. I guess I didn't balance out my statements enough or something...

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

God bless you
thanks for the encouraging words

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

I guess I this is a personal matter for me as I have a disability in the right hand side of my body, and having rid myself of the notion that God made me like that to make me stronger (that belief was a major barrier between myself and God's love) I am left wondering what I have to do be healed. It does seem for a lot of people sickness is tied to something like unforgiveness or bitterness, but I can assure I have removed those completely from my life. So I am left in a state of confusion.

But I also feel so joyful - for the other thing I learnt recently was that God does not look on from afar, but is there sharing our pain (as you said Karl: "the suffering of humanity hurts God more than it does us").

One can only dream of the day when we all awake with new bodies in a new world with no sickness or suffering.

My little sister sent me the poem below recently - I am sure you have all seen it but if anyone hasn't they are in for a treat:

-Rowan

Footprints In The Sand

One night I dreamed I was walking
Along the beach with the Lord.
Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.
In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand.
Sometimes there were two sets of footprints.
Other times there were one set of footprints.
This bothered me because I noticed that
During the low periods of my life when I was
Suffering from anguish, sorrow, or defeat,
I could see only one set of footprints,
So I said to the Lord, "You promised me,
Lord, that if I followed You,
You would walk with me always.
But I noticed that during the most trying periods
Of my life there have only been
One set of prints in the sand.
Why, When I have needed You most,
You have not been there for me?"
The Lord replied,
"The times when you have seen only one set of footprints
Is when I carried you."

By Mary Stevenson

about being wise.. its one thing to say things, another to live them , God however can use your words, and use this imperfect sinridden vessel even though he will use it more in the future when this vessel is more submitted to HIm and HIs will and not just my own selfishness

continue to pray for healing, you know be persistant , you know the story of the guy who pleaded at his neighbours door until he got frustrated enough to do what the guy wanted.. God wants you to pursue him... Just make sure that your pray for healing isn't the major part of your prayers and thoughts... but if you have this joy then i'm sure you are already at that stage (of not being obsessed with healing over everything else)..

and if you have or get the peice of God that you will be healed hold on to it (though it requires being very vulnerable to God and dealing with the hurt each day that you aren't already healed, but you can grow through that).. and pray that God would heal you in a way that would be a testimony of his Godness and that would open people's heart to Him to the point of salvation , that his Glory would be revealed through his healing of you rowan..

how you doing anyway?, i'm thinking i'd like you to deal with the web page of GODCENTRIC since you've done a very good job on your own...

Bless you

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

I'll start on some ideas for GODCENTRIC tonight. The past few nights I have been playing too much Counter-Strike. Dare I uninstall it? I am starting to enjoy shooting terrorists less and less.

PS. Read ths! Saint Patrick's Breastplate

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited October 30, 2001).]

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamesaint:
There is really no need to pray to God and ask him to heal someone because he did that over 2000 years ago

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Are you trying to say that we are already healed? I know am saved and I am spiritual healed but I am not physically healed. Honest . Nobody gets healed by our faith but by the grace of God.

-Rowan

Praying ussually isn't to force the hand of God, but to reconcile us and our thoughts to those of the Lord. Jesus instructs us in the so called Lord's prayer to pray for forgiveness even though we have it.. and God's will has already been accomplished because he has spoken , however he is still working it out in the world through his servants.. It is a bizzarre paradox that us humans can't understand very well being restricted to the space-time dimentions..

sorry if i digressed..
your points ae very good..
Sickness is never something God will afflict people with
but he will use and turn the things that satan does to people and use them for God, he's very skilled at that..

God Bless

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

Also, God strikes people dead all throughout the Bible, in both the old and new testament. So how can you accept the fact that God sometimes kills people, but not the fact that He sometimes makes them sick?

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

When a sin is commited someone has to pay - its like conservation of energy in physics. When Jesus hung upon the cross, died and descended into hell - HE was paying for all the sins we have commited and will commit. Prior to that God often made the perpetrators pay then and there themselves on the spot. So poor old Miriam got punished for bad mouthing Moses then and there with leprosy (which God healed after 7 days at the request of Moses).

Its nice to know thats all changed now - our sins are payed are prepaid by Jesus!

[This message has been edited by rowanseymour (edited October 31, 2001).]

Sometimes (most usuaully, I would say) sickness is just sickness, and not the result of a divine smiting for either punishment for sin or for some divine purpose (eg. Job).

Because of the fall of Adam and Eve, all of creation has been affected indirectly, not just our "spiritual" condition. Babies are born sick or with defects. Is this "God's will"? I doubt it, but I do believe God is sovereign but lets it happen (I don't understand why, but I don't have to), and that he could even bring good about because of it (but I don't believe he makes deformed or sick babies specifically for that purpose). And I don't think sick babies are sick because of unconfessed sin.

If you're sick, by all means pray. But for goodness sake, go see your doctor and/or take the right medication as well.

Brian

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I still don't understand how sickness and suffering are separated. That just sounds like nonsense to me. Sickness is suffering.

Let me get this straight... You're saying that since Jesus paid the price for our sins, we don't have to be sick because Jesus already paid for the sin and has already taken the punishment, right? Yet it is quite clear that even strong Christians with an awesome relationship with God still suffer, and, might I add, they still get sick too.

Also, the leprosy did not pay for Miriam's sin. The wages of sin is death. Rather, the leprosy was punishment, like a slap on the hand for stealing from the cookie jar (well, only slightly more intense than that ), a warning to both Miriam and others. Therefore it is false to say that before Jesus' death people's sins could be paid through sickness.

As for the whole Jesus going to hell thing... I'm not even going to get into that right now. It's off the subject and it's not essential for my faith.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

I was trying to present a short explaination for the seeming New / Old Testament differences (I don't think I thought it through much ). While I except that God issued sickness and suffering in the Old Testament (there is no doubt about that) I believe that has changed now - because Jesus has accounted for our sins. I was NOT saying that Christians don't get sick - I was saying that God doesn't make them sick.

As regards the difference between sickness and suffering...

Suffering in the bible is normally something willingly accepted in the course of following the Lord. We should as Christians be willing to suffer as it often serves a greater purpose and may improve us. Sickness never serves any purpose (from my own experience sickness rarely makes you stronger) other than a punishment.

quote:

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Originally posted by imsold4christ:
Therefore it is false to say that before Jesus' death people's sins could be paid through sickness.

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Well it does sound pretty ridiculous when you put it like that. But this is my current understanding of it ...

The reason the wages of sin is death is because he who has any sin cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Is punishment not a form of paying for sin? Jesus' crucifixion was him being punished for our sins. And is sickness (as you said yourself) a form of punishment in the Old Testament.

quote:

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Originally posted by rowanseymour:
Sickness never serves any purpose (from my own experience sickness rarely makes you stronger) other than a punishment.

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I note your contradicting usage of never and rarely at the same time.

I have heard stories from other people about how sickness has made them stronger. And I specifically recall a story from one person who was made stronger by a sickness that God gave him. (However, once the person had learned what he was supposed to, God lifted the sickness from him.) I am not going to tell the story in detail here, because it is really long.

quote:

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Originally posted by rowanseymour:
Is punishment not a form of paying for sin? Jesus' crucifixion was him being punished for our sins.

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Punishment is never a form of paying for sin. Again, the wages of sin is death, not a slap on the hand that is meant to turn you back to God. If punishment was enough to pay for sin, we'd have a lot more people going to heaven. The only thing that paid for their sins in the old testament was through the offering of sacrifices, I think. The reason for this is because someone, or something had to pay blood for what was done, thus the need for sacrifices. And of course you all know that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.

The fact that Jesus died at all is what paid for our sins. The way he died had only one purpose: to fulfill Old Testament prophecies about Him.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

[This message has been edited by imsold4christ (edited November 01, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by imsold4christ (edited November 01, 2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by imsold4christ:
The fact that Jesus died at all is what paid for our sins. The way he died had only one purpose: to fulfill Old Testament prophecies about Him.

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I don't believe Jesus soley dying pays for anything. I believe Jesus (an innocent) spending 3 days in hell pays for the sins of the world. And the method of Jesus' death was not to fulfill prophecy. Prophecy if it is true fulfills itself.

As you said in one of your posts in response to me saying that Jesus went to hell, was that it wasn't essential to your faith. I think I need to state for the record that this is the same for me. A lot of what I say is just my current understanding of the bible - and subject to change. I am here not to preach but to learn - so I hope I don't sound too arogant

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Rowan@GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

quote:

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Originally posted by rowanseymour:
I don't believe Jesus soley dying pays for anything. I believe Jesus (an innocent) spending 3 days in hell pays for the sins of the world. And the method of Jesus' death was not to fulfill prophecy. Prophecy if it is true fulfills itself

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Whatever. But my other point still stands.

†Caleb†

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

quote:

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Originally posted by rowanseymour:
I don't believe Jesus soley dying pays for anything. I believe Jesus (an innocent) spending 3 days in hell pays for the sins of the world.

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I believe Jesus dying pays for everything. On the cross he said "it is finished" just before he died. It is his death that pays for our sin - if not, he did not need to become human in the first place and could have paid for our sins without dying as a human. I do not believe he suffered in hell, and I'd be interested in any scripture that says otherwise. Or is this the subject of a new topic?

Brian

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Rowan@GODCENTRIC Christian Demoscene

Just one point to add which Karl raised.

What happens to babies when they die?

The Bible text that helps me believe that they go to heaven is regarding the baby that King David and Bathsheba had. God allowed the baby to die as a punishment for David's sins. After the baby died, King David stopped mourning, and his friends asked him why. This was his answer:

2 Samaul 12:22 He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.'
23 But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

He says - "I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

My baby sister died when she was half a year old from a sickness, so I am looking forward to see her at the resurrection!

Revelator!

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www.revelatorgames.com

-Krylar

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